The Logical QB Hunt
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 11, 2008 6:11 PM PST
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PrintThe qb argument is heating up, but before people just start throwing random names out there that sound good (Kerry Collins?) we should think about what kind of moves make sense in the NFL, since some teams aren't so willing to give up their qb's, and some qb's wouldn't help us at all.
1) Draft vs. Veteran: The most obvious place to start is whether we should try our luck at the draft or pick up a qb with experience within the league. While the talent and excitement of a new, young draft pick is always exciting, I think that a) our eventual high draft pick could be better used on a line position and b) we have tried the young gun from the draft before, and it hasn't worked out too well. These young star wide receivers need someone who knows how to place the ball and make them look good. Of course, if there is no good vet available, then we need to draft.
2) Who is available?: When talking about college QB's, I don't know much outside of USC and Rutgers, so that is a conversation for another discussion board. Concerning a QB that has been in the league for a while; as much as we would all like an amazing gunslinger, or a wily veteran, most of the quarterbacks in the league aren't going anywhere. If the Niners are going to go after a vet, we need to take roll call of the realistic/promising/thrown out there ideas.
- Kerry Collins - Not feeling this one. Even with Vince Young potentially returning to the helm of Titans, returning KC to the bench, Kerry will be 36 next season, and the Titans will most likely sign him in case Vince Young looses it again. That being said, Vince Young is another option if the Titans cut theie ties with him.
- Matt Cassel - This one is intriguing to me. With the return of Tom Brady next season, Cassel takes a back seat, and this season he is performing pretty well. The important factor here is that his contract is up at the end of this season. With a successful season he could demand some money the Pats don't want to pay a backup, and could find his way wearing red and gold.
- Matt Leinert - A place on the bench might not be comfortable for him, especially if Warner continues to have this amazing MVP season he is running up. Weisenhunt has no loyalty to him, and him coming back to So Cal could be in the "Cards" (HAHAHAHaHaHaHahahaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.....). That being said, if Warner fades, he could be on the block as well.
- Carson Palmer - The honeymoon appears to be over, and as he begins to fade with the Bungles could a comeback with the niners be possible?
- Byron Leftwich - Could be itching for a starting role again instead of sitting on the bench in Steel City.
- Vinny Testaverde - Nahh I'm just kidding.
3) Will Martz be our OC? If our wonderful trend continues, then we will have a new OC next year. The decision on a new QB could be impacted on what kind of QB fits in the system we are using.
This was mostly posted to spark discussion about moves that could be made within the league to get a veteran QB. Its all speculation at this point, but a man can dream can't he?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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I haven't even really
thought about the prospect of getting Palmer. I could see him wanting to return to Cali. That would be pretty cool, but I don’t know how good the chances are of that happening.
Simply by pulling on both ends, Patrick Willis can stretch diamonds back into coal
No,No,No,No,No,
Why look for a new QB? Shawn Hill was managing the game last night the O-line was blocking for him and he did a 1000 times better then JTO. We need to draft a big time, big play wide out that will complement Shaun Hill and free up Jason Hill and Josh Morgan. A QB could be drafted in the lower rounds. Colt McCoy is at best right now a 2nd to 4th rounder. We need O-Line help a pass rush would also help.
Not looking for a QB is what got us in this situation to begin with
and continuing not to look is only going to set this franchise back even further.
by methodrampage on Nov 11, 2008 7:05 PM PST up reply actions
This.
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 11, 2008 11:44 PM PST up reply actions
Detroit did the big time WRs in the draft
That worked wonders…
We need OL or DL help, I think our #1 draft pick should be focused on that. Depending on the talent available. But again, I know nothing about up-and-coming college players going pro.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 12, 2008 6:22 AM PST up reply actions
It's hard to hold a conversation with somebody
That knows nothing about most of the topic.
by methodrampage on Nov 12, 2008 8:23 AM PST up reply actions
Its hard to get information from anyone
Who thinks this is a conversation. I said from the start I posted this to get some information on the draft class. If I talk out my ass about college QB’s, then you scold me for not knowing what I’m talking about (which I don’t). If I say I actually know nothing, you scold me for not knowing anything. Stop being a blogging douche, throw in your opinion, and move out of your parents basement.
See, I can be a jerk for no reason too.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 13, 2008 6:36 AM PST up reply actions
hmm...
I like the idea of Matt Cassel… but i agree with lifer… we need LINEMEN… both O and D… if crabtree is available take him.. if not a big time DLineman Okrapo or OLineman Andre Smith and pick up a Qb in the 2nd round and load up with linemen, WRs, Cbs and Lbs to fill the needs.
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Cassel?
He’s nothing special even with a phenomenal supporting case.
The thought of that guy leading the Niners is pretty scary.
My current Interwebs obsession is pretty awesome. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
I agree as I've said this before
The only intriguing thing is it’s hard to tell if he’s going to develop any further. I mean his first start at QB, between college and the NFL, came this year. That’s a lot of playing time he’s missed and I doubt sitting on the bench behind Palmer and Leinart at USC and Brady at NE has fully developed him. Players really need field time to get better. With that said, he might be good enough to buy the Niners some time while they develop another younger, higher ceiling QB.
by methodrampage on Nov 12, 2008 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
Let it begin.
Okay, so I know that the subject line isn’t a great positive beginning, and well probably a lot of you will disagree with my first choice as our Starter for next season. I have a few in mind, and I’ll break down all of the reason that I can think of. So without further delay.
Frist off the probability of returns and my choices for QB depth Chart for next season:
Shaun Hill. While he doesn’t have a strong arm, he may not fumble in crunch time, I don’t think he’s Starter material. At least not with the 49ers. He’s been a back up all his life, and maybe won’t stay 3rd string, but he’ll be a great second string if the 49ers don’t pick up any QB in the off season. Probability of Returning: 70%
O’Sullivn. Looking good in the first few games for SF. However he’ll only stay if Martz stays, and that’s looking iffy. Probablity of Returning: 30%
Alex Smith. Yes, we all though the Smith era was over in SF. Well we may have thought wrong. We know that the Nolan era is over and that was the rift in the Smith troubles, among other things (see offensive coordinators, and sacred locker rooms). Smith is due to make a lot of money next season, and if they 49ers don’t want to pay him that, he may look elsewhere. However, that might be a mistake, since I don’t see a team lining up for him, and granted he hasn’t helped his cause. The Ownership staff of SF has been on Smith’s side since his arrival in San Francisco. If Smith takes a pay cut and competes for the new coach, whoever it may be, he may be starter once again, and shockingly good! (Remember tommy john surgery in baseball, pitchers seem to have better command?) Probability of Returning: 90%.
I told you, you may not like it. Now, I like to see a guy succeed but I’m no Smith bandwagon fan. Its all measure in wins and neither of the three have much separation this season. Smith played very well in the preseason, and almost took the job from J.T.
Then the draft: If SF choses to draft a QB, they may look at Tebow if Tim opts for the NFL. Tebow, may start too, and it would be a long season, because it would be a mirror of Alex’s Smith Campaign all over again. Colt McCoy could also go.
My educated and gut instinct guesses: Martz’s will elects to stay, it would be dumb of the 49ers to dump him after one season Five OC’s in five years or something like that is just unheard of in the NFL. If Singletary stays I think Smith will have chance to prove himself in training camp if he stays, but a very limited chance. Shaun Hill would probably start with O’Sullivan and Smith battling for 2nd String.
IF Homlgren is hired, and Smith is still thee, I see Smith as the starter, and west coast style approach, like the 49ers of the old.
Should Holmgren retire, and Singletary not a canidate or goes elsewhere then I wouldn’t be surprised if the 49ers hire Urban Meyer away from Florida. Rumor has it, they have already discussed the option with Florida officials. Meyer would be able to learn the NFL quickly, and Smith may stay and would still probably be a back up, but could learn from Meyer the keys to success in the NFL. Again if Meyer goes to SF, look for Tebow to opt to the NFL and be a high consideration in the draft for the 49ers.
My predictions: Urban Meyer will be the coach of the San Francisco 49ers next season and Alex Smith will be the starter.
Martz will stay and they will run the unheard of NFL style spread offense along with a traditional style west coast. Gore is a top receiver as well as rusher.
Singletary will leave for a Headcoaching position in either Cleveland, Houston, Cincinnati, or Detroit.
O’Sullivan will be a backup in San Francisco.
The 49ers will be 10-6 and play a wildcard game against the Packers in Green Bay. They will lose 34-27 in Overtime.
Anyway that’s my prediction. Lets hear your thoughts. Questions welcome.
Wow, thats what I was looking for
Lets adress your points one by one.
I’m TERRIFIED of a coach coming from college to the NFL again… especially to the niners. Scares the crap out of me. It dooms us to at least another few year rebuilding, and I can’t see a first year NFL coach from college bringing an NFL team to a winning record, let alone a playoff appearance.
I’ll take your word on Tebow, I wouldn’t mind a heisman QB on the team.
Holmgren is not coming to the niners, he is taking at least a year sabbatical, he wants to relax for a while, especially after their sh*t season.
In my gut I think Alex Smith will be the starter next season. All season he has sat back and focused on learning the Martz system. Smith is someone who doesn’t like getting crapped on by the media, like what has been going on for the past few years, and I think he is determined to proove us wrong. How likely that is to happen, not sure…
My gut says: Singletary HC, Martz OC, Smith Starting QB, Gore Rules, Willis is amazing, JTO is shot by someone crazy.
My heart/dreams say: Cower HC, One of Cower’s guys OC, Carson Palmer is in a QB competition with Smith, Gore is even better, Willis defensive MVP, JTO is… shot by someone crazy
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 12, 2008 6:33 AM PST up reply actions
Where's this Carson Palmer nonsense coming from?
He’s signed through like 2014 and it’s not like the Bengals have some young hot shot QB waiting in the wings.
by methodrampage on Nov 12, 2008 8:35 AM PST up reply actions
But the Bengals are not the smartest franchise...
and can cut ties with their past and start anew. They can trade him away. He had one successful season with the team, it’s not out of the question for a team to move on, especially with an upcoming high draft pick.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 13, 2008 6:38 AM PST up reply actions
Do you realize what the cap penalites would be?
For cutting or trading a player that has like $70-80 million over six years left on his contract. They can’t trade him with that much money and time left on his contract.
He had one successful season with the team
Again, it’s hard to talk about something when someone knows little about what they’re talking about. Palmer had very successful seasons in ‘05, ’06 & ’07 and was better than anything the Niners have seen in awhile in ’04. From ’05 through ’07 Palmer has averaged over 4000 yards passing, over 28 TD and a 65% comp per season. Believe me; he’s got more than 1 successful season in there.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
Success = Playoffs
Simple enough. Statistics is fine and dandy (Note, cite Wikipedia next time), especially when you have two amazing WR’s and a RB that can shoulder a good load of the running, opening the passing game up a bit more. However, as we saw his support players getting arrested/traded/released, and his WR’s losing motivation, his play suffered as well. And even in their one playoff appearance, they lost their first game (Duely noted, Palmer was out).
Secon point: if you are comparing success to how the niners have done, then 85% of QBs in the league are successful since ’04.
Third point: Since when is trading a cap hit? Cutting, yes, but the Niners would pick up the bill if he is traded to us.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 13, 2008 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
Apparently...
… you like blaming the failures of a team on one person?
Comes with the QB territory
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 13, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
Cap hits.
Trading a player means that the originator of the contract STILL eats the bonus money (just like a release). The only difference in a trade is that the team gets something back in return for taking that hit.
depends
the new team can also pick up the bonus money if its part of the deal
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
See, now that's where things get a little fuzzy with me.
Is the labor agreement in the NFL similar to the MLB one? Meaning, can teams actually send cash? I don’t think it is, otherwise we would see a LOT more movement in terms of player trades. Not to mention, there wouldn’t be as many teams in cap trouble.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way
The burden of proof is on maveric_87 here.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 2:02 PM PST up reply actions
Success = Playoffs? Don't be silly.
His play suffered last season most likely because his knee wans’t totally healthy/recovered from his surgery at the end of the year before.
The Bengals’ failure to make the playoffs more than once has little to do with Palmer as their defense has been a complete abortion.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
second that
their losses have more to do with the defense and having a bunch of hooligans running around on the team than palmer.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
I concur.
Why does everyone thin Palmer is this stud QB? He hasn’t won shit. Every time I’ve heard him talk he sounds like one of the most arrogant pricks in the league. A succesful QB is a winning QB. Lets go in the way back machine. Jim Plunkett vs. Mark Wilson. Wilson had the “physical” talent while Plunkett could rally the troops and make his team win. Hell, stay with the Raiders, Jeff George could throw the ball 150 yards but was a train wreck as an NFL QB. Palmer is just a blond haired media darling. Some guys have the “it” factor, and I’m sorry, but I dont see it in Palmer.
Dan Marino didn't win shit.
He must have sucked too. Look, throwing for 4,000, 28 TDs and completing 65% of your passes pretty much makes you a stud. I’m not sure there’s much more you could ask out of a QB.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
Saw that point coming
So you are comparing Carson Palmer to Dan Marino?
( This is the hole in your argument )
An important point of being a QB is being a leader, motivating your team when it counts. Its all fine and dandy to put up those numbers during the regular season and during the 1st half of football games, but the Bungles were choke artists for many seasons, only pulled it together well enough one season to make the playoffs.
Dan Marino has the numbers to be considered the best QB in the game BY FAR, but since he never won the big one, he is always considered number 3 or 4. Being a QB is being a leader, and if you don’t lead your team to sucess, you could have a 100% completion percentage, you are not an elite qb.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 14, 2008 5:38 AM PST up reply actions
On the other hand, if you have a 100% completion percentage, you’re almost definitely leading your team to victories. Weird how that works.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 14, 2008 7:15 AM PST up reply actions
Your guys are so dense it's not even funny
First off I didn’t compare Marino to Palmer. I simply made an observation that Marino didn’t win a campionship. Plus Palmer’s in what his 5th season as a starter? How many seasons did it take Elway to win a Superbowl?
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 7:16 AM PST up reply actions
While winning championships (or campionship for that matter) is the ultimate yardstick
for a QB, getting to the playoff and consitantly winning is the measure of whether a QB is successful or not. While Marino did not win the big one, he did lead his team to the playoffs routinely, while he only had an 8-10 record, thats still 18 playoff games. Elway made the playoffs 10 of his 16 years in the league, including a record 5 super bowls. My point was that the media is so high on Palmer, when the fact of the matter is he has played in 2 plays of 1 playoff loss. You want me to be impressed? Win something.
Because Carson Palmer has nothing on Trent Dilfer. Right?
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 10:44 PM PST up reply actions
i've heard him talk numerous times
and I’ve never thought he came across as arrogant.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 14, 2008 7:26 AM PST up reply actions
Here's my prediction
HC: Singletary, OC: Meyer: Starting QB: Smith, Gore gets 1700yds, we draft a QB in the second round, WIllis is better, JTO is works for UPS and gets fired for constantly dropping packages
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Same reason he got fired from his job as a fluffer.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 12, 2008 9:15 PM PST up reply actions
Meyer as OC?
I’m curious why you think Meyer would take a job as an OC. If he keeps up at Florida (particularly if they win a national title this year), wouldn’t a team want him as a head coach? Not necessarily the 49ers, but some team?
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by David Fucillo on Nov 12, 2008 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
Tebow not the future
Guys, Tebow is a college phenom that will require years of bench time to learn and then there is no gaurantee of success. Have we not learned from the last Meyer player (alex smith).
::shaking my head::
Asking for Alex Smith is asking for more of the same from the last 3 years. Shaun Hill should have proved more than enough to you by battling without a helmet for a first down. Sometimes, it really is all about the little things.
And uh, fyi, Alex Smith would have been riding pine for 7 weeks while he healed from injuries sustained from having his helmet ripped off.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
And here's yet another problem
The only thing that Shaun Hill has proved is that, given the current situation, he should have an opportunity to compete for the QB job next year. To just hand him the job, like the Niners did with Alex Smith, is not going to help anything. Right now nobody in the current picture should have a lock on the QB job next year. I see no drawbacks to bringing Smith back on a restructured contract and letting him compete with Hill, or any other of these veteran QB’s who people keep bringing up that are somehow going to be available come the off season.
by methodrampage on Nov 12, 2008 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Agree
At this stage, I think an open QB competition would be the best bet. Of course, when I say “open” I don’t mean “Open… but we’ll just let JT O’Sullivan get all the snaps because Mike Martz likes him” kind of competition.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
But...
I think what chirop1 brings up is a great counterpoint. All we need to look at is this offseason to see how “open” our QB competitions can be. For the time being, all Shaun Hill needs to do is be Shaun Hill. To build a team around a potential probable elite QB will take far longer than I’m interested in waiting, and that’s assuming our bumbling management could get it right (which we have yet to see). I say we keep building our ragtag team of odds and ends and make a run with what we have. If we had had Shaun Hill from the start of this season (which is what i’ve been screaming for since the end of last season), we would be guaranteed at least a playoff spot. Not “likely”, not a “good bet”, guaranteed a spot in this year’s playoffs.
We can win with this team, which is what we need to do to attract good, stable coaches (Line and QB Coaches and even OC), which is what we need before we draft fragile talent that can be ruined a la Alex Smith, which in turn will allow us to fill in the gaps and build a juggernaut for seasons to come. If that means we have to find a way to get a ring or an NFC championship with this group of NFL rejects (like the Titans have proven can be done) then sign me up.
But, if we’re gonna look for the next Matt Leinart Carson Palmer Vince Young Peyton Eli Manning in the draft, then I’ll see you guys in five years. I’ve got lots of Titan merch to buy.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
What counter point?
Chirop1 agreed and elobarated a bit on what I said, he didn’t counter anything.
If we had had Shaun Hill from the start of this season (which is what i’ve been screaming for since the end of last season), we would be guaranteed at least a playoff spot.
Ok so this is sarcasm, right? Hill looked better than JTO in really on one regard, he got rid of the ball before he got sacked. Props to him for that, but he still made some pretty boneheaded plays. Right now, based on the last game, he really only looks like a marginal upgrade over JTO.
by methodrampage on Nov 12, 2008 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
Marginal
Where the margin is the difference between being a leader on the field and winning games vs whatever the crap JTO was. You can say it doesn’t matter in the pros, but having a fighting spirit and confidence in the face of improbable odds is what lifts ailing franchises like ours back into competition. Like I said before, if we can find a way to win with what we have we’ll get the momentum in this league to get back to being an elite team. I’d like to look into parity and how it’s actually helped teams beyond one season before losing that big name draft to a team that can actually use him or injury.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
It's way premature to call Hill "a winner"
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
hes atleast better than what they have had....
dilfer, weinke, pickett, your mom(no insult), your dad, my cousin, JTOcrappovan…………
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Break
Just one link in the chain of events that led to the loss and he’d still have a perfect record:
1. Horrible officiating (missed DPI calls, ref moves out of the way of the play, etc)
2. VD outstretches his damn arms
3. Ball gets spotted on the 1 like it’s supposed to
4. HC or OC realizes ball isn’t on the 1 and calls a play action or calls in Gore with enough time to actually execute it
Play the same game 10 times and I say we win it 6 times out of the 10. Notice I didn’t even include the boneheaded interceptions that I’m certain are correctable flukes rather than patterns (like they became with JTO), only factors completely out of Hill’s control.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
:cough:sample:cough:size:cough:
I think I need one of those flu shot things.
The Cardinals have invested way too much in him
First off they can’t move him the cap penalty would be huge.
Secondly, Kurt Warner is like 50 and he can’t play for ever. Warner has had trouble staying healthy in the past and they’ll need a back-up in case he gets hurt.
Thirdly, he just doesn’t look like he’s going to be that good anyways. I haven’t seen anything from him at the NFL level that suggest he could be anything close to a franchise QB.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 1:19 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, Matt Leinatr isn’t a bad idea.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 12, 2008 9:16 PM PST up reply actions
Half-twin. They obviously have different fathers.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 13, 2008 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
They got it from their very ruggedly handsome mom.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 13, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
What an awkward question….
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 13, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
I think I need some neosporin now.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 13, 2008 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
Third degree.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 14, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
Make and offer for him
and the cards will listen. Just need to make an interesting one…
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 13, 2008 6:42 AM PST up reply actions
The Cardinals have way too many guys that need to get paid
They need to be as efficient as possible with whatever cap room they’ve got left. Trading Leinart would be about as inefficient as it gets when you consider the cap penalty. The Cardinals are far better off letting him back-up Warner then trying to move him.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
warners gone
i know he is having a big year but its been stated already that leinert is still the future of this team. warner goes before leinert does. and i think if martz is still with the 9ers, going after warner might not be a bad idea if they are going to draft a qb and rework smiths contract.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Been said where and when?
It would be an epically boneheaded move for the Cardinals to let Warner (who could potentially be the MVP) walk after the seasons end and hand to reins over to Leinart who hasn’t proved shit. Leinart’s been handed the starting QB job before only to lose it. If anything I’d bet Arizona has soured on the whole “Matt Leinart is the future of the team” nonsense. If the Cardinals offer Warner a fair deal for 2-3 years I’d imagine it’d be his preference to stick around in Arizona.
That being said I highly doubt he’s anywhere but Arizona next year. However, if he walks he would be my top FA QB choice by a long shot but it just doesn’t make any sense for the Cardinals not to retain him.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
What??
Lets see JTO Sacked 30+ times S. Hill 0 How many times did JTO turn over the ball? Way to flipping many times. Leinart is not working out in AZ so why here? Cassel will just be another flop if he comes to us and he will not. Palmer not going to happen. Collins your kidding right? I have not seen any post from Colt McCoy’s biggest fan. Defense wins championships people we need help there BIG TIME! I understand the point just not the logic. Nate Clements is a bust! Yes I said it a bust. Dude gets burned by everything. Mike Luis is showing why The Eagles dumped his ass! P. Willis, J. Smith are giving it 1000% every game with little or no help from anyone(besides Spikes) WE NEED D FENCE & O-LINE PEOPLE WHAT ARE YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THAT!!!!!
I gave Hill credit for not getting sacked
JTO threw 11 INTs and lost 6 fumbles for a total of 17 turnovers through 8 games. Roughly 2 turn overs per game started. Hill is actually turning the ball over at a higher rate than JTO. Hill threw 2 INTs (he threw at least 2 more that got called back on penalties) and lost 1 fumble on Monday night. That’s 3 turnovers per game started. Granted Hill has only started one game but ball security isn’t something thats going to help your arguement right now.
Hill completed 19 out of 40 passes. A completion % below 50% is far from a playoff caliber QB performance.
If you really look at the stats JTO and Hill are pretty much on par with each other thus far.
by methodrampage on Nov 12, 2008 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
So what do you think we should do QB wise?
Lets say Hill performs as he did Monday for the rest of the season. What do we do at the QB position? I can’t nail down your opinion on the matter. Do you think we shop for a qb, let our current QBs compete, draft one?
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 13, 2008 6:49 AM PST up reply actions
It's a bad situation
I’ve been one of the biggest Alex Smith detractors but I don’t see anything wrong with bringing him back if he restructures his contact. It’s also probably the best thing for him to do as its one of the few places he’d actually have a legitimate shot at earning a starting gig.
Based on his contract I’d imagine if Hill keeps playing at the level he currently is, he’ll be back next year. Which is fine as long as the Niners don’t hand him the job and make him compete for it.
The Niners do need to draft a QB but I wouldn’t take one in the first round. So they need to buy a couple years while he develops. Smith and/or Hill might be serviceable until then.
There are other guys out there. Unfortunately, you can forget about most of the big names you guys are throwing out, their contracts are going to make then extremely difficult to move. I’ve heard Volek’s name being thrown around but he’s probably locked into the Chargers back-up role but maybe Charlie Whitehurst might be an option. Depending what Miami wants to do with Beck he could be an option. Then you’ve got potential free agents like Boller, Frye, Cassell, Garcia, Grossman, Losman, McCown, Ramsey and even Warner (although I higher doubt the Cardinals are just going to let him walk without trying to resign him) that are probably at least worth a shot.
There’s really no quick fix here.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
Very well said.
Anything the 49ers do this offseason (in terms of QB) HAS to be with a couple of years down the line in mind. Even if they were to bring in a veteran like Warner, they may still need to take a look at drafting a QB in the second through fourth rounds of this year’s draft to get a head start on when Warner retires.
I’m also in agreement with the whole Smith situation. If he’s willing to restructure his deal, the 49ers would be wise to at least try to get something out of the bonus money they still owe him, even if it is only a backup QB. They’re paying him anyways.
We can win this year
And I say we would have absolutely walked into a playoff spot if we had had Shaun Hill since the beginning of the season. If we had Coach Sing, I’d even expect to make it out of the first round. We can win with what we have- although the stats say otherwise, I know we didn’t “overachieve” on Monday, we underachieved for what this squad is capable of. Just keep watching, you’ll see a whole different world by the end of the season.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
i almost agree
they had a swagger to them in that god-awful monday night game that they havent had. i think it will get better as we close in on the end of the year. sing gets atleast 3 wins and i think they will keep him.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
I don't know If i can agree witn that 100%
But we would be at least .500. I could see us leading the division with a few good bounces. The future plan for qbs method lays out is a good one. The mentorship-into-drafted-qb plan is one i fully support, its just finding out the right personnel that is key.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 13, 2008 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
Good Plan
But the lack of stability in the coaching department is what still worries me. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that a check isn’t good enough to keep coaching talent. Sure, you could get coaching talent, but who knows how long they’ll stay if they get offered a job, even for less pay, with a winning team? In my mind, the only way to attract and, most importantly, keep good coaching talent is to prove we can create a team environment that is conducive to winning. We made great progress by getting Coach Sing, who won’t let these guys give up on themselves or the team, and while Shaun Hill is no franchise elite QB, he has better judgement, awareness and flexibility to make plays even when the supporting cast “drops the ball”.
The plan by method is solid, but it’s the second step in the process:
1. Stabilize the coaching staff
2. Draft young QB for mentorship role
3. Obtain/Retain talent at key positions
4. Start young QB with built-up defense and offensive weapons
5. Revel in the second coming of the 49er’s reign of the NFL
The only way to get to step #1? Winning with what we have.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
Let me fill in the gaps
1. Get Matt Leinart
2. ??? Suffer endlessly, then go back to my plan
3. Profit!
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
Leinart, Cassel, Palmer....
Sounds like Fooch wants a USC QB. I’m actually ok with giving any of those 3 a shot though. Or Vince Young. Or almost anyone who isnt on our roster right now.
First, ProfessorBigElow, I'm not a prostitute
Second, what is wrong with that? They have talent and they run an offense thats as close to a Pro offense as it gets in the college game. They work with big-play wide receivers, strong running backs and a good O-Line. Admittedly we need a good O-line to match USC.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 13, 2008 6:46 AM PST up reply actions
sorry about the name misrepresentation and I’m not saying theres anything wrong with wanting a USC QB at all, I’m in favor of any of em….or all of them.
Its ok, i forgive and concurr with you
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 14, 2008 5:39 AM PST up reply actions
good god
id rather have hill than vince young
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
yea
it would be terrible if he could bounce back and lead a roster lacking talent like ours to the playoffs like he did his rookie year.
He didn't lead shit
You mean that year he completed less than 52% of his passes, threw for more INT than TD’s,?His defense took them to the playoffs. All he had to do was try and not fuck shit up.
by methodrampage on Nov 13, 2008 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Michael Vick was a “winner” once, too. The league adjusts to “winners” and it does it FAST. What the league doesn’t adjust to is talent. Vince Young hasn’t shown that he has it. Not in spades, anyway. Vince Young won’t bounce back, because he didn’t take a step backward. The league just stopped being worried about him when it became painfully clear that he actually just wasn’t playing well. For Young to “bounce back,” he’s actually going to have to get a lot better.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 13, 2008 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
ok
I agree Vince Young doesnt posses some magical power to win and that he isnt among the best QB’s in the league….I’m just saying the upside is there and he has shown he is capable of making enough plays to not lose games. Our QB crew certainly hasnt done that this year…..or last year…….or the year before……
This is the same discussion that took place above
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Nov 14, 2008 5:44 AM PST up reply actions
Even heard the term "Defense wins championships"?
I don’t think I’ve ever heard “A QB wins championshops”. Trent Dilfer won a Superbowl. Was he a great leader, a great quarterback? No his defense carried him.
This discussion wouldn’t be necessary is if you guys were’nt so fucking dumb.
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 7:19 AM PST up reply actions
News Flash
Tom Brady is really fucking good. He probably had the best statistical season in the ENTIRE history of the NFL for a quarterback. He wins by being really fucking good on a really fucking good team. Not necessarily by having some completely undefinable “winner” quality.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 14, 2008 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
I can think of plenty of times where the QB or another non-defense entity carried the team to a championship.
The Colts? The Rams? The Pats?
QBs do win championships, buddy.
Wrong.
There’s more to those teams than QB. Look at the coaches, front offices, etc. The Bengals organization as a whole sucks. Marvin Lewis isn’t much of a HC and his front office keeps signing trouble makers for him to deal with. The Bengals’ short comings have little to do with Palmer.
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
The Colts
Manning carried his team to the championship
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
You're right
Because the Colts only had the #1 defense in ’07, only giving up a league best 16.4 pts/game. Ranking 3rd in rushing yards against , 2nd in passing yards against and 3rd overall in yard against.
Please try again.
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
that is factually correct.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 14, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
Steelers won the 2005-2006 season, Colts won the 2006-2007 season, and Pats won the 2007-2008 season.
So the Colts had a good run defense during the 2007-2008 season, but that wasn’t the same season they won the superbowl.
technically
they won the super bowl during the 2006 calendar year, so he’s still right. I get what you’re saying, though.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 14, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
So manning didn't lead them?
They had a great D but Manning threw for 4000 yards and 31 TD’s and 9 ints. Yea he didn’t lead them. Care to refute that?
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
It's an abnomally
The ‘99-00’ Rams and the ‘06-’07 Colts won Championships without much of a defense.
Every year Brady has won a Superbowl he’s had at least a league average defense.
QB’s, even the elite ones, have a tough time winning without at least an average defense. The Bengals’ defense consitently rank in the bottom 1/3 – 1/4 of the league.
I also wouldn’t sell Dungy short on what he’s done with the Colts.
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah sure, but...
No team can win with a below-average QB either. Even if the QB is a caretaker, he may not win the game, but he doesn’t lose the game either (except, Roethlisberger of the Steelers).
Bottom line: the whole team matters, but an exceptional player or an exceptional unit can lift the whole team.
'00-'01Baltimore Ravens
The Tony Banks/Trent Dilfer combo qualifies as a below average QB.
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Dilfer
had a decent year. He started 8 games played in 11 and threw for over 1500. He would’ve had higher stats had he started the whole year. Those numbers are decent considering how well the defense played. He didn’t have to go crazy.
Another example is Brad Johnson. He had over 3000 yards and an NFL high 92 passer rating when they won the SB. You have to have a QB playing average to above average to win the SB.
Jim McMahon had 2400 yards and 15 TDs with an 82.6 passer rating when the bears won. Thats average to above average. You still need that to win championships even if your defense is lights out.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
chicken or the egg
is Indy’s D that dominant without Manning running the offense causing opposing offenses to constantly play from behind and forced into passing situations? Not a chance. Not to mention time of posession.
So then it's premature to knock Palmer
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
Well it took Elway what, like 15 years to win a Championship?
But we’re supposed to be ready to write off Palmer as a QB who doesn’t have what it takes to win after 5 years?
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
I’m confused… I don’t think we disagree. I like Carson Palmer and think he’s a great QB stuck on a terrible team.
I think I was just making fun of you for saying “championshops”.
Touche
That might have put me in the dumb lead.
by methodrampage on Nov 14, 2008 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
Out of the guys listed up top...
Palmer would be the guy I want taking snaps for the 9ers. Many forget that if it wasn’t for his knee getting blown out by a low hit from the Steelers, he probably would’ve won. Kitna didn’t even go down without a fight in that game. They might’ve gone to the SB.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
In the fucking dumb competition...
I think you’ve walked away with the championshop.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
I’ll admit, I struggled with the decision to not go with goatee Spock.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 13, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
Huh.
My comment was because I didn’t see the picture, and thought you just submitted a blank comment. Now my comment almost makes no sense.
Raincoats won’t do you much good now.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 13, 2008 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
I dunno...I see more potential in this guy
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 14, 2008 7:40 AM PST up reply actions
Fascinating.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 14, 2008 8:13 AM PST up reply actions
You do realize Warner's a free agent after this year?
It seems to me that it’s not that Arizona doesn’t like Leinart…in fact they were ready to have him their starter until that awful preseason game against the Raiders. They are taking the wise approach, IMO, and letting him ride the pine and take notes for a couple years. There’s a lot to be said for not throwing a guy in the fire. There is NO way they trade Leinart with Warner as a FA, and obviously with just a couple years left in the tank.
Let’s also stop the Tebow talk. You guys are ready for ANOTHER Urban Meyer product? I feel he’s the equivalent of Tyler Hansborough—a GREAT college player that doesn’t have the skill sets or the attributes to make it in the pros. He relies too much on the run game, which will give him more concussions than Steve Young. If we’re going to draft a college QB, it ought to be one that plays in a pro-style offense rather than a spread offense, which seems too gimmiky for the NFL, like the Wildcat—teams have already figured out how to stop the Wildcat offense in a matter of a few weeks. Players are too quick and too talented in the NFL to get stumped by the spread offense for long.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
thank you
everyone keeps saying its crazy to think warner will go into free agency. news flash! hes not getting any younger. hes putting up mvp numbers now but with leinert learning a thing or 2 on the bench makes him that much better. warner is gone before leinert! and if martz remains the oc we should sign warner and draft a qb to sit on the bench and learn.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
I disagree with signing Warner
Much of the reason Warner’s struggled up until this year is he’s had not protection, and he’s always been a QB that does great when given protection but struggles mightily when he doesn’t. Considering the state of the 49ers’ OL, I’d say it wouldn’t be a great idea to sign Warner…he’ll get hit constantly.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 14, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
I remember when the announcers...
… on Monday kept saying stuff like “remember when no one wanted this guy?” I kept thinking to myself: “Yes, no one wanted him because his experiences in St. Louis had him running scared. He played scared and therefore he sucked.” I don’t know what’s caused his transformation this year, but I’m pretty sure it has a LOT to do with his confidence in the 5 or 6 guys in front of him.
In all seriousness, what makes you say teams have figured out how to stop Wildcat? It seems as if it still works. Hell, the Jets did it once yesterday on a simple outside run.
There are so many other possibilities for the Wildcat formation. QB in motion. Laterals. etc.
Have you watched the Dophins much lately?
Ronnie Brown has done NOTHING the past few weeks. These teams figured out that by run-blitzing, they can stop it from working consistently. Yeah, teams that run a normal offense might be able to get a nice gain once a game, but it’s not something you can depend on consistently. You can look at the 49ers for evidence…almost every time they run the Wildcat with Robinson/Gore, they get no more than 5 yards a carry.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 14, 2008 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
How Shocking
The NFL caught on to the wild-cat offense. Anyone who thought that wouldn’t happen was living in denial.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
That’s because they suck at running it.
The Wildcat can’t work as a base formation. Hell, it can’t even work in college as a base formation. When Arkansas tried it, sometimes it worked tremendously, like in Arkansas’ massive upset over LSU, and sometimes it failed, like against Auburn.
But as a change of pace, it can be tremendously effective. A couple times a game, yes.
its good for surprises, nothing more
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
that may be
but going back to my main point, the Wildcat and the spread offense seem gimmiky to me, and I think once the majority of teams use it for a period of time, they’ll figure out how to stop it in the NFL. That’s why I’d be very cautious about drafting Tebow or TT’s QB (can’t think of his name at the moment).
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 14, 2008 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
seriously
It’s been in the making for so long…
P.S. – If you take the current 49ers roster on madden NFL 09 and change Michael Robinson’s position to QB…you have yourself a mad-baller-ass playmaker under center who runs better than Tavaris Jackson and throws better than…Alex Smith.
The O-line
isn’t as bad as the stats show. That clearly showed monday night. No sacks. Why? Because Hill didn’t hold the ball forever. Warner has learned not to hold onto the ball forever like he did in the past.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
It’s a Martz QB tendency, if you look at it. Holding onto the ball and taking sacks while trying to make plays happen.
Warner, Bulger, Kitna, JTO
Shaun Hill is the exception because he’s a Maverick.
Could also be...
.. that he has the backing of his head coach. In St. Louis, Martz called the shots, so the QB dared not contradict him. It was the same in Detriot, probably. In SF, up until Singletary took over, Martz ran the entire offensive show.
In other words, it’s possible that Hill can play however he wants, because he feels that Singletary’s got his back (as long as the results are there).
They may not be AWFUL
but I still think it’s a team weakness. I just have a gut feeling that Warner wouldn’t get enough time to make good throws as a 49er.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 14, 2008 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
QB
First off we definatley need a new Qb the QB’s we have now are nothing but a bunch of losers and thats one of the only reasons were losing.
As far as QB’s theres a good class of rookies coming up next year, and someone like tim tebow would be a good fit with the niners, the scrambling lefty reminds people of steve young. Other prospects id say is matt leinart, carson palmer, and I dought this would happen but mike vick’s coming back next season and our Off would be tight with a scrambler like him out there.
Overall we need a QB that can get the job done or a veteran and we need to get rid of the losers we have there now!
QB
Shaun Hill has shown he can manage a game so far and if he keeps it up until the end of the season that will greatly effect what the Niners do. Singletary and Martz will probably be back in this situation, unless we can land Cowher. We could also go into the season with Hill as the starter with a young guy to groom. I don’t think Hill is a super bowl caliber QB but he may be solid enough for the playoffs. And yeah, Dilfer did it but that just means the rest of your team has to be that much better.
In this scenario, I would draft a QB in the middle rounds and try to get Smith back on a reduced salary. They can battle it out as the backup QB and the future of the position. Don’t think they would be drafting high enough to land either Bradford or Stafford. If they did have the chance and felt that one of these guys is a special player, then you still have to draft them.
If Hill fails to impress the rest of the way then I would really hope things fall apart in Philly. Landing Donovan doesn’t seem impossible at this point and gives the team a reputable QB for at least a few years. He’ll come at a much larger price though (salary and picks). Palmer would be great too but I just don’t believe that will happen. Personally I think Hill is pretty comparable to Cassel.
I would still draft a QB for the future but Smith would be gone. Hill and the rookie would battle for backup duties.
I’m hoping Hill finishes out strong because using a high pick or trade is going to come at the expense of other positions and this team still has many holes to fill (RT, pass rusher’s , NT, playmaking safety, even CB).
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