Mike Leach
by tenjay on Nov 3, 2008 2:20 PM PST
74 comments
In his weekly MMQB Peter King says an NFL team should hire Texas Tech's Mike Leach.
2. I think if I were an NFL owner looking for a new coach in January, I'd want to interview Texas Tech coachMike Leach. Every NFL team is using a version of the spread offense already, and this guy's got his doctorate in it. His football brain is obviously way ahead of its time, and he might be the next big thing in coaching. What would San Francisco, St. Louis, Cincinnati or Detroit -- or any number of other teams who might make a change -- have to lose?
Think he would be good for the 'niners? Maybe he could get Alex Smith right.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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I really don’t like the idea of taking great college coaches and making them into NFL head coaches. See: Pete Carroll, Dennis Erickson, Nick Saban, Steve Spurrier…
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
by groug on Nov 3, 2008 3:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
Wait. So King’s logic for bringing Mike Leach into the NFL is because “every team is using a version of the spread offense already” and Leach was/is some expert in the spread offense?
I highly doubt teams like the Steelers or Ravens run a “spread” offense. Am I wrong?
by sfgfan on Nov 3, 2008 3:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
you're correct
Multiple teams use it, but because the Patriots had such success with a version of that style of offense it’s easy to just say everybody used it. And of course the Patriots success in that offense was due in large part to Moss and Brady. Very few teams have that kind of combination.
It’s easy to hop on the next hot thing as a head coach. Everybody thought Bobby Petrino was the next big thing and that was a big fat dud.
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by Fooch on Nov 3, 2008 4:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
College Coaches Suck in the NFL
Sorry folks, it’s the truth. They need to stay in their world.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 3, 2008 4:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Tell that to Jimmy Johnson.
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 4, 2008 2:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yea thats 1 example out of how many?
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just pointing out how silly it is to make blanket statements like that.
College coaches don’t work out in the pros, except for the ones that do (Johnson*). Short QB’s aren’t any good, except for the ones that are (Brees). You need a great QB to win a Super Bowl, except when you don’t (Dilfer, B. Johnson). Black head coaches can’t win the big game, except when they can (Dungy). The salary cap will eliminate any more dynasties, except when it doesn’t (Patriots).
Blanket statements = Intellectually lazy
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 4, 2008 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
* Other former college coaches who reached multiple conference championship games in their first NFL head coaching job: Bill Walsh, Tom Coughlin, Denny Green, Barry Switzer.
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 4, 2008 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Overall
blanket statement also = no need for detail because most everyone knows it, not lazyness. Don’t be ignorant everyone knows that MOST college coaches don’t make it in the NFL. No detail needed. Walsh went from the NFL to college and back. Switzer inherited Johnsons team and Green hasn’t won a Super Bowl.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“MOST college coaches don’t make it in the NFL.”
True statement. Of course, so is this:
“MOST college coaches don’t make it in the NFL.”
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 4, 2008 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Then you need to look at their records
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
From some blog on FanNation
A short list of prominent coaches who have gone from college and to the pro’s beginning in 1995 include Saban, Steve Spurrier, Butch Davis, Pete Carroll, and Dennis Erickson who collectively compiled a 511-190 career coaching record along with 7 national titles. Their collective records as NFL head coaches are a dismal 124-159.
That’s a winning percentage of about 44. Mike Nolan for example won 33 of his games. Romeo Crennel checks in at like 42. Dick Jauron is sporting rolling at 43. Possibly one of the best DC of all time, Dick Lebeau won 22% of his games as a HC. Al Saunders won 44% as a HC.
A first time HC’s success is probably tied more to the situation he’s inheriting than his actually ability to coach at the NFL level. If a college coach is making the jump to a NFL HC it’s probably because the previous HC of that NFL team got fired. Therefore the team he’s inheriting is probably better suited to fail than to succeed.
by methodrampage on Nov 4, 2008 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Very good point
I think an excellent comparison can be made between Lane Kiffin and Mike Tomlin.
Both very young head coaches. Both unproven.
One gets a franchise with a history of stability… the other gets a franchise run by a senile vampire. (Seriously… have you ever seen Al Davis stand in front of a mirror? Have you?) Now look where they are today.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Nov 4, 2008 1:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 4, 2008 6:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That makes me think of the Jerry Jones that shows up at KSK more than anything.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
by groug on Nov 4, 2008 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying you'd rather have a HC from college take over for the 9ers?
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not what he's saying at all.
He’s not making a choice here. He’s just saying that it’s wrong to write off a coach just because he was a college coach. There’s not a single reference to “rather” anywhere.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If given the choice...
between college HC vs. NFL OC’s or DC’s, track records favor NFL coaches.
by StepUp on Nov 4, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not disagreeing with that.
I was just elaborating on Josh’s point that blanket statements are wrong. If you say “College coaches suck as NFL coaches,” of course you’re wrong, as there have been exceptions. It’s not that difficult to say “most college coaches suck as NFL head coaches.” I think that if that was what was said, there would have been very little disagreement.
Not only did he make that blanket statement that was blatantly false, he pushed it on the world as a “truth.” Yes, most college head coaches fail in the NFL, but to say all of them do is just wrong.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can say whatever however
If you don’t agree with a blanket statement like that, I don’t care. Bottom line is NFL coaches still have better records than college coaches that move to the NFL. And I didn’t say ALL I said MOST. There’s a big difference.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What are we talking about here?
NFL coaches with previous NFL HC experience and/or NFL coaches with no prior NFL HC experience? I’d imagine most first time NFL HC struggle. Care to disprove me?
by methodrampage on Nov 4, 2008 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
O RLY?
This statement sure sounds like you’re saying “all” to me:
College Coaches Suck in the NFL
Sorry folks, it’s the truth. They need to stay in their world.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 2:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
read further on in the comments
I said MOST
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Proof
You got a link or some numbers or anything? LeBeau and Saunders are in the upper eschelon of DC and OC yet failed as HC.
by methodrampage on Nov 4, 2008 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What sfgfan said.
I’d prefer the best candidate. Sure, in a vacuum, I’d prefer a coach with pro experience — including some as a coordinator — but sometimes the best coaches don’t fit neatly into our preconceived notions, while the worst coaches do. And I feel eliminating any group of people from consideration based on a general preconception rather than their individual abilities is a bad idea.
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 4, 2008 1:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why did they fail?
Why did Petrino, Saban, Erickson, Kiffin, et al. fail if they were the best candidates, if you’re choosing from both the NFL and college at the same time? Were they the best coaches? Were others from the NFL hired those same years that have succeeded?
by StepUp on Nov 4, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because the HC ahead of them failed?
by methodrampage on Nov 4, 2008 2:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wade Phillips Syndrome?
A great example of a coach’s fate being tied to his predecessor is Wade Phillips. Not counting 2 brief interim gigs, he’s been a head coach 3 times — each time achieving a winning record his first year and taking the team to the playoffs (in Buffalo he did it both his first 2 years).
So, good coach, right? Except each time he inherited his team from a future Hall of Fame coach who’s taken teams to at least 3 Super Bowls (Reeves, Levy, and Parcells), each time the team lost it’s only playoff game (both years in Buffalo) and backslid in his following season(s) there. In Denver he was sandwiched in between two future HOF coaches — Reeves and Shanahan — and was the only guy to coach John Elway and not get to a Super Bowl.
Now he’s following the same path in Dallas — getting a good team with a good QB to the playoffs and losing as soon as he gets there (now 0-4 in the postseason). So, 66-46 career record (.589 winning %), but is he really a good coach?
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 5, 2008 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who said any of those guys were the best candidates (besides the guys who hired them)? Personally, I was beside myself with anger when the Niners settled for Erickson (who already had 4 full years of experience as an NFL head coach, by the way).
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 4, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Situation
As method points out above, they can fail because the situation before them failed.
Erickson could have failed because his GM failed him.
Kiffin failed because his owner failed him (and the world for that matter).
Saban was 15-17 in his only two years in Miami. That’s not terrible, either.
Situation can play just as big a role in the failure of a coach as the coach does himself. That’s why it’s wrong to just write off a whole group without taking any kind of context into the argument.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Petrino failed in part because he had the wrong attitude but also because his organization was in shambles.
by methodrampage on Nov 4, 2008 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yea.
I forgot about the whole Vick debacle.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
petrino and saban still quit on their teams
i don’t care if they were both in bad situations. they both quit, douchebags. hope saban gets rocked in the bowl games this year.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 2:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So by your logic does that make every college HC a douchebag?
by methodrampage on Nov 4, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's not get too carried away...
Were these douchebags the best choices of the NFL vs. college coaches candidates? Why were they chosen over NFL coaches? If you go back in the thread, the point was brought up that Josh prefered the best candidate without any pre-conceived notions of whether they were “college coach” tainted (my emphasis). Why were these guys chosen when clearly they weren’t the bast candidates, and they were from college. Insert this argument for each college-to-NFL hire that flamed.
by StepUp on Nov 4, 2008 3:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Why were these guys chosen when clearly they weren’t the bast candidates"
Who’s to say that some of those college coaches weren’t the best canidates at that time? Who would have been better canidates?
You guys are acting like there is a surplus of NFL coaches that are ready to be a NFL HC. That simply isn’t the case.
And to claim that Leach would fail as a NFL HC because Petrino and Spurrier failed is the same as claiming that Alex Smith failed because Ryan Leaf and David Carr failed. Petrino and Spurrier have nothing to do with Leach much like how Leaf and Carr have nothing to do with Smith.
by methodrampage on Nov 4, 2008 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
System Guy
I’m not against college coaches as much as I’m against “system” coaches. Gimmicky systems are much more likely to work in college, where you can recruit the best athletes to run them (Spurrier). In the pros, just about anything can be game-planned for. Leach is an awesome coach, and if I were the AD at Tennessee or any other top program, I’d go all out for him, but there would be a lot of question marks about bringing him to the pros.
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Nov 4, 2008 2:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
He's too nutty for the NFL
Read any in depth story about this guy or just listen to him talk and you’ll quickly learn that he’s a little off center. I’m not sure his crazy mind would work with all the media pressure that goes with an NFL job.
by cgolden on Nov 4, 2008 8:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Rivera
I think Chargers’ DC can make a good Head Coach… he created a great defensive scheme in Chicago and can bring that hard nosed defensive outlook onto the niners. He was being considered as a candidate around the league the year the bears went to the super bowl why not be considered next year?
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
by bayboy on Nov 4, 2008 10:18 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
If I'm not mistaken...
… Wade Phillips left him a talented defense in San Diego that had a pretty darn solid scheme and was one of the league’s best. Where is that defense now? Well, it’s now one of the league’s worst.
The question I have is this: if he were head coaching material, why was his bypassed for the Chargers job AND the Cowboys job? More importantly, why did he go from being a defensive coordinator back to being just a linebackers coach working UNDER Wade Phillips?
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
AJ Smith and Jerry Jones...
Smith chose his guy Tollner as the DC, but obviously saw enough in Rviera to offer him a job with them. Jerry likes big names and Wade’s was bigger than Rivera’s. Beside’s Wade has a track record, and I think he felt Wade wouldn’t screw it up while waiting for Jerry’s coach of the future to finally be ready to take the helm. Guess Jerry missed on that one (ha ha).
by StepUp on Nov 4, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Shawne Merriman
He’s the reason the defense has not been the same. Rivera was just promoted last week. As a Defensive Coordinator he basically led the Bears to a Super Bowl the Rex was horrible and their O did just enough. He never worked under Wade Phillips in San Diego. As a linebacker coach he has upgrade the productivity of all LBs look at what Shaun Phillips, Marquis Harris and Jyles Tucker can do. They are 1,2 and 3 in sacks. I believe this is Tucker’s 2nd year and he’s a beast at OLB replacing Merriman.
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
by bayboy on Nov 4, 2008 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My mistake.
I’m just curious as to why he didn’t find a new coordinator’s job after the Bears. Heck, I’m curious as to why the Bears let him go? You’d think that there are enough defense-starved teams out there that need a new coordinator.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Devil's Advocate here
Do you think if the internet had been around in the late 1970’s, 49er fans would have been up in arms against hiring the head coach of Stanford of all places and his “gimmick” offense?
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Nov 4, 2008 12:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
agreed
but since the last i’ll say 10 years, college coaches haven’t had the greatest track record in the NFL let alone winning record
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In the 70's...
…coaching turnover wasn’t anything like it is now, considering the immense pressure/money/win now attitude that exists. Pressure to hire a college coach in the last few years with mild to moderate success is nothing that the coaches and teams of the 70’s faced. It’s apples to oranges.
by StepUp on Nov 4, 2008 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Walsh's offense...
… really wasn’t a gimmicky offense, was it? The offense he installed in San Francisco was a control-style offense, no? It’s not like he ran the option, threw 30704 WRs on the field and hoped one got open.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dunno
I certainly wouldn’t call the West Coast offense a gimmick offense today. But its had 30 years of in game proof to show that it isn’t a gimmick. At the time, it was certainly revolutionary. A horizontal passing game instead of a vertical one?!!? Madness!!!! If the phrase “gimmick offense” had been around in the 70’s, I bet thats what it would have been called before the Niners rode it to 5 Super Bowls. (Not to mention countless other teams to succeed with it.)
Maybe the spread offense is the future? I certainly am no seer when it comes to this stuff.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Nov 4, 2008 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Spread
The spread can definitely work if you can put together a group of players that play within the realm of that system. Front offices don’t have that same luxury in the NFL that colleges do, as there are so many other determining factors that control where a player ends up (team-wise).
I would think that screen passes and short routes have existed long before Walsh brought them into prominence, except they’ve always been treated as check downs during failed passing plays. The primary thing Walsh did was that he replaced some of the running game with pass plays that had short routes as the primary target. Yes, it was different and probably revolutionary, but it’s far from being a gimmick.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its a good question
I was born in 1978… so I certainly don’t know what the perception was of the West Coast offense pre-Niner dominance. As I said, I’m just kind of looking at this thing from a devil’s advocate position.
I’d be interested if anyone around here actually remembers that era of football and what kind of reception Walsh’s offense received.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Nov 4, 2008 2:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you...
… I forgot about the devil’s advocate position. My fault.
by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Walsh did have pro experience though. He was an assistant coach with the Bengals and the OC of the Chargers.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
by groug on Nov 4, 2008 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thats what i was saying earlier
walsh went from the pros to college and back. he’s an exception when it comes to talking about college coaches going pro. and some forget that the west coast offense originated over there in cincy.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 4, 2008 2:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, He runs a pass heavy spread, which doesnt really translate to the NFL
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on Nov 4, 2008 8:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Why not?
I see a lot of people making blanket statements that it doesn’t translate, but I’m not hearing a lot of actual reasoning.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Nov 5, 2008 4:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No teams run the spread, so there has to be something wrong with it, or someone would do it
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on Nov 5, 2008 7:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s not beat around the bush here. Everyone makes blanket statements.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 5, 2008 7:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad you did, too, because absolutely nobody else did.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Nov 5, 2008 9:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right the Patriots and Colts haven't had any recent success.
by methodrampage on Nov 5, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Theyve had success because of their Quarterbacks
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on Nov 5, 2008 5:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not necessarily the system
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on Nov 5, 2008 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
come on now
you still have to have a decent system to have success. manning and brady are unbelievable but they still have to have a good system to work with.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Nov 5, 2008 6:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But If you put an average quarterback in the system it doesnt look as good
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on Nov 5, 2008 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's like saying...
… the Steelers’ system has been good because of their running backs. Or the Bronco’s run blocking scheme is good because they have good linemen.
Of course you’re going to have good players in any system. Isn’t that the whole point? You find players that fit your system if you have a system that will work. You can’t discount the success of a pass happy team just because they have elite quarterbacks.
by sfgfan on Nov 6, 2008 10:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
It transfers if you have the personnel to run it, which the 49ers don’t. I made a blanket staement.
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on Nov 6, 2008 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
The Patriots and Colts didn’t always have the personnel.
by methodrampage on Nov 7, 2008 7:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And they werent as good, So the system isnt magical, you need a great talent to run it
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on Nov 7, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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