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Mike Martz out?

It seems like Singletary is IN and Mike Martz is OUT. Singletary wants to move in a new direction in terms of OC. Who then, will be our Offensive Coordinator for next season? Josh McDaniels is coming out of New England but he hardly seems to be the right fit for the Niners. What affect will yet another new OC have on an offense that's just beginning to get itself together? Post your thoughts.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.

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McDaniels

I’d imagine McDaniels would only leave for a head coaching job, particular given that he’ll be getting Brady back next year if he were to remain OC.

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by Fooch on Dec 24, 2008 3:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Where did you learn that Martz is out?

Is it for definite?
I have just watched the HC’s press conference for today on the team’s website, and all Sing states about Martz is that he’s been happy with his work(not good) and that they are to sit down and decide where to go from here(better) once the season is over?
For me, I hope he stays. I think the team needs the continuity on offence and another season will, I think, see the team really get to grips with the way Martz does things. That can only lead to the team getting better and improving for next year.
If another change is made to the OC, whoever is brought in – and here I agree with Fooch that McDaniels will only leave NE for a HC job – means that the team goes back to square one almost in having to learn the new guys system.
It just means the team stagnates and doesn’t go anywhere and here, I believe, is where the HC can’t really help much cos he is not an offensive guy.
So I really hope Sing does all he can to keep Martz for next year.

by Ninerfromacrossthepond on Dec 24, 2008 3:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Martz

I’ll have more on it tomorrow as my Christmas post and Ninjames will have plenty of links on it I’m sure. It’s not definite but the links about it seem to indicate that it’s a foregone conclusion.

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by Fooch on Dec 24, 2008 3:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Norv!!!

If the Chargers don’t make it in it would be surprising if Norv doesn’t get fired. With that in mind, if you’re going to let Martz go then for god sakes get someone in there who knows what they’re doing. Hire Norv right away if he is fired so that the guys will be familiar with him already. Tired of OC’s leaving and the offense falling back into hell!

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Dec 24, 2008 4:24 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

F Norv! F No! FUDGE FUDGE FUDGE NO!

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Dec 24, 2008 10:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm...

Only a guy named Marcello would comment something like this. Anyway, according to ESPN, Martz will not be retained. So, I wonder who the candidates are for Singletary’s next OC? Have there been talks of who might replace Martz or who the candidates are?

2nd Infantry Division --- Second to None!

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 25, 2008 11:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

younger guys

Maiocco floated names as pure speculation but he was looking at young QB coaches.

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by Fooch on Dec 26, 2008 1:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, we need to trade Gore for Brady.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Dec 26, 2008 8:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm

It seems unlikely that the Patriots would ever consider doing that, keeping in mind that Brady’s 2007 DYAR (The last reliable measure considering his injury) was 2788 with a DVOA of 56.9, compared to Gore’s DYAR of 110 yards this year (and 130 last year) with a DVOA of -1.9.

Basically, Brady is FAR more valuable a commodity than Gore, considering Gore is playing worse than the average RB and would be more easily replaced than Brady. A Hall of Fame quarterback is hard to come by these days, while an electrifying running back (as evidenced this year) is only a draft pick away.

by Cruithear on Dec 26, 2008 4:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

don't worry...

he’s just being sarcastic. Long story.

2nd Infantry Division --- Second to None!

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 26, 2008 4:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bah

And I went to all that effort =P.

by Cruithear on Dec 26, 2008 7:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

NEW OC

The blueprint for winning in this league is last years Giants (who beat the “Scoring Machine” Patriots) in last years Super Bowl:

Great defense (especially in the pass rush).
Great running attack.
Effective “Timely” Passing Attack ( It’s not the Quanity of passes, it’s the Quality of passes).
LIMIT, LIMIT, LIMIT . . . TURNOVERS!

That, incidentially, was the same blueprint of Singletary’s 85 Bears.
Everyone knows about the “46” defense and the late great Walter Payton but not many people know that the Bears led the NFC in scoring that year. McMahon didn’t throw often but when he did he was effective. They had a burner (Willie Gault) a possession receiver (Dennis McKinnon) and two good tight ends (Emery Moorehead & Tim Wrightman). Payton was a great receiver out of the backfield and a devastating blocker in blitz pick-ups. McMahon was a SMART, TOUGH, QB who was great at finding the open man (when applicable) and not making STUPID mistakes.

Whether Martz (who I like) stays, or whomever replaces him if he leaves, the blueprint for success is this:

1. Smart coaches fit their systems to their players abilities. Don’t try to put a square peg in a round whole.

2. Run the ball, play strong defense, DON’T TURN THE BALL OVER, and make enough plays in the passing game to keep the defense off-balance and to be effective.

It doesn’t really take a genius to be the next coordinator of the Niners.

This league is full of quality OC’s as well as position coaches (like the Cardinal’s Todd Haley) who have stepped up to the position of OC and have done a good job with the personnel they have.

Follow the blueprint and you’ll succeed.

The most important person on the field is the HC and Singletary is definitely the right person. He has an abundance of the most important quality needed by a head coach: LEADERSHIP. A quality missing in your Nolans, and Turners and Phillips and Camerons and Mularkeys and on and on and on.

Beyond that Singletary has almost 20 years of excellence in the NFL. I trust him to make the right decision on the upcoming OC for the 49’ers.

NEVER, NEVER underestimate Mike Singletary! Mike’s no phony. When he talks respectfully about other coaches (like Nolan & Martz) . . . he means it! When he talks about God and faith and things like that . . . he means it!

And yet, DEEP INSIDE, he burns, not to be a GOOD HC, not even to be a GREAT HC, but maybe to be the GREATEST HC of all! Will he succeed? I don’t know (probably not but I wouldn’t count him out) . I do know this: Let Mike get rid of any “losers” on his team and bring in “his” type of players (winners) and stay out of his way and let him do his job.

He may not end up being a great HC (though i think he will be). He may not win any Super Bowls in S.F. (though I think he will). He will, however, be LIGHT YEARS ahead of guys like Mike Nolan and Dennis Erickson!

by GeoMak on Dec 24, 2008 6:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I read your first sentence and decided you were wrong.

The blueprint for winning in this league is last years Giants (who beat the "Scoring Machine" Patriots) in last years Super Bowl:

That’s just the wrong way to do business. So wrong it hurts.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Dec 24, 2008 10:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A) What would be YOUR blueprint, then?
B) Get used to it, cause that’s what Singletary is going to use (last years Giants, his 85 Bears).
C) Again, please share with me YOUR blueprint.

by GeoMak on Dec 25, 2008 9:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t need a blueprint to criticize your thinking process. Copying the last successful team is stupid because there is a new blueprint each year.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Dec 25, 2008 10:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently, not only do you not know much about football, but you can’t read very well. I also referenced the 85 Bears as having the same “blueprint” as “the last successful team.”
See, you might want to reread the post.

"There’s a new blueprint every year? Really? Can you elaborate, please.

Anyway, I’ll repeat the “blueprint” to win in this league (and trust me, whether you like it or not, it’s the one Singletary is going to use . . . and succeed with). Why? Because that’s how he was taught in the NFL under Ditka & Ryan and where he had his greatest success (and by the way, as last years’s Super Bowl proved, is NEVER OUT OF STYLE, even against the greatest offensive machine in NFL history (The 2007 Pats).

Great Defense.
Great Running Attack.
Timely Passing.
LIMIT, LIMIT TURNOVERS!

Get used to it, cause that’s what Singletary is going to do. Now, I know that you’re a genius (LOL) so I guess, in essence, what you’re saying is that you’re “right” and Singletary’s “wrong.”

Is that what you’re saying? OMG. That’s way too funny. You should apply for the HC position tomorrow morning!

Really. Tell the Yorks that Singletary’s “blueprint” is wrong (even though it worked for his Bears, the Giants, the Ravens, Tampa Bay and the Steelers, among others) and tell them you have the “real winning blueprint” for success in the NFL.

I don’t know who you are, but you crack me up! Are you a comedian?

by GeoMak on Dec 25, 2008 12:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know, marcello, GeoMak has a good point. You can’t just blindly criticize something without providing a decent argument as to why you are right and why what you are criticizing is wrong. You set yourself up for failure, there.

by Cruithear on Dec 25, 2008 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Blueprint

Thanks Cruithear.
Football, at it’s core, is really so easy to understand that even a “Caveman can figure it out!” It’s kicking the other guys ass. Period. For sixty minutes. That’s Singletary’s philosophy (as per Ditka & Ryan) and that formula NEVER goes out of style.

It may not rack up “style” points but it wins.

Last year, as the Patriots were running the table in the regular season your own Joe Montana, in USA today, made a great observation. Responding to all of the talk that “Tom Brady was the greatest QB in the universe” Montana said that Brady didn’t have to play against defenses like Buddy Ryan’s 46 defense like he (Montana) did." You could tell that Montana, while respecting Brady, was a little annoyed cause he felt that he had to play against some tougher defenses than Brady did and that furthermore, he couldn’t understand how opposing defenses were just letting Brady stand back in the pocket to pick apart the secondary.

Then came the Super Bowl. The unbeaten Patriots (who were being discussed as maybe the greatest team ever) against the upstart , overachieving Giants.

Few people, outside of the NY locker room, gave the Giants a chance in that game against Brady, Moss, Welker and Belichick. And yet they kicked ass on the field largely by pressuring Brady into submission. As Joe Theisman used to say “A quarterback can’t complete passes if he’s lying on his back.”

Great Defense (starting with pressure upfront).
Great Running Attack (to chew up the clock and keep your defense fresh).
Timely Passing (like Phil Simms in the Super Bowl . . . 22 out of 25 passes completed).
LIMIT Turnovers. Turnovers KILL.

That blueprint, effectively carried out, will win a team a lot of games.

by GeoMak on Dec 25, 2008 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Dec 26, 2008 1:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought it was pretty obvious why, but ok, I’ll spoon feed it to you. First off, he completely missed the reason why the Giants were able to stop the Patriots. It was because of their unholy pass rush that even the Patriots line couldn’t stop. Second off, copying the last successful team is just stupid (even stupider is copying a blueprint that has supposedly been successful twice in the last 25 years, why not copy the 49ers of the 80’s blueprint instead?). It’s like chasing fashion trends, you’re going to look ridiculous a year from now because the trend has changed.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Dec 26, 2008 8:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Patriots...

if you haven’t noticed have a pretty close resembelence to the 9ers of old. No team is going to go after a carbon copy of a successful team but will follow pretty close. The giants are a great organization to follow and have left a good blueprint just like the 9ers of old. Plus, defense wins championships.

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Dec 26, 2008 4:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know how you could miss my point more, but I’ll try to explain to you why you have no clue what you’re talking about.

"There’s a new blueprint every year? Really? Can you elaborate, please.

Look at the list of Super Bowl winners, sometimes it’s a suffocating defense that takes a team all the way, sometimes it’s an amazing offense. The point is, there isn’t one way that wins. There isn’t a best way to do it, there are plenty of good ways. What is stupid, is copying the last successful team regardless of the personnel you have. Our team isn’t anything like the 2008 or 2009 Giants and isn’t close to being like them.

Get used to it, cause that’s what Singletary is going to do. Now, I know that you’re a genius (LOL) so I guess, in essence, what you’re saying is that you’re "right" and Singletary’s "wrong."

Is that what you’re saying? OMG. That’s way too funny. You should apply for the HC position tomorrow morning!

No clue where you got that from. I said your process for deciding things was stupid. YOU. Not Singletary, YOU. Nevermind that you have no clue what Singletary is going to do. That clearly doesn’t stop you from pretending that you do. Also, nevermind that he doesn’t make the majority of personnel decisions, McLoughlin does.

Really. Tell the Yorks that Singletary’s "blueprint" is wrong (even though it worked for his Bears, the Giants, the Ravens, Tampa Bay and the Steelers, among others) and tell them you have the "real winning blueprint" for success in the NFL.

Again, I don’t know where you got that from. Try this in the future:

1) Read something.
2) You probably didn’t understand it so take a few minutes to think about it.
3) Write your response.
4) Wait 15 minutes to post it because what you wrote is probably unbelievably stupid and a little time will help you to realize that.

Football, at it’s core, is really so easy to understand that even a "Caveman can figure it out!" It’s kicking the other guys ass. Period. For sixty minutes.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. No. That’s a talking point that the retards on Sportscenter say.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Dec 26, 2008 9:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great defense (especially in the pass rush)
Smart coaches fit their systems to their players abilities. Don’t try to put a square peg in a round whole.

Not to nitpick, but we don’t have a great pass rush currently, so that could be seen as trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Dec 27, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The making of a great system...

is dependent on your players. The days of Montana and Young, they set up the run with an excellent passing attack. It allowed Roger Craig to become succesful, first as a FB then as a HB, with Rathman leading the way for him. Maybe if Shaun Hill is the starting QB next season, they might have a decent passing game. He seem to connect with Isaac Bruce pretty well.

2nd Infantry Division --- Second to None!

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 25, 2008 11:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Marcello You're an IDIOT

1. The Giants. Great Pass rush. Yes. That’s the CORNERSTONE of ANY GREAT DEFENSE. I started out my “blueprint” with GREAT DEFENSE. You just helped confirm my point.

2. It’s not like I just suddenly said “Let’s copy last years winning teams blueprint.” DON"T BE STUPID! That “blueprint” has been around FOREVER. It always has worked and always will work (Which is why Singletary is going to use it)!!! I brought up the Giants because it’s the MOST RECENT example and to shut-up anyone who says that it won’t work in today’s game (as they used it to dominate the mighty Pats)

Play great defense.
Control the clock with the running game.
Make timely plays in the passing game.
LIMIT TURNOVERS.

Don’t make it sound like the only two teams that have been successful with that style of play are the two teams I referenced (the 85 Bears & the 2007 Giants). Don’t be that STUPID!

Rarely is it an “AMAZING” offense. Outside of the Rams “greatest” show on turf.

Even Walsh’s Niners played excellent defense and limited turnovers. They did, however, thanks to Walsh’s genius (and guys like Montana & Rice et al) use the SHORT PASSING GAME TO CONTROL THE CLOCK LIKE ONE USUALLY USES THE RUNNING GAME. That was and is the ESSENCE of the “West Coast Offense.” It worked at it’s highest level under Walsh and the Niners because:

1. It was Walsh’s system.
2. Being a new system teams struggled to defend it.
3. The Niners ran it to perfection and it sure didn’t hurt having HOF’s like Montana, Rice and Lott (among others) on those teams.

There’s a HUGE difference between the offense/passing game of Walsh’s Niners and Martz’s Rams. If you don’t know or understand that it only speaks to your ignorance.

The recent Super Bowl winning Patriots teams were far closer to Walsh’s teams than to Vermeil/Martz’s Rams.

For teams without people like Walsh, Montana, Brady, Rice, Moss etc they’ll probably have to “settle” for controlling the clock through the running game. When you’ve got a guy like Frank Gore in your backfield it’s not a bad alternative.

Did I say anything about copying the Giants man for man, person for person. You sound like an idiot.

Regarding personnel, TRUST ME, Singletary and whomever in the front office will be quickly “weeding out and bring in” the players necessary to win, according to the blueprint.

Son, I FORGOT more about Singletary’s career and about the NFL in general than you’ll EVER know.

BTW: Stand back and watch Singletary build up and coach HIS team according to the “blueprint” I laid out.

by GeoMak on Dec 26, 2008 11:45 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Play great defense.
Control the clock with the running game.
Make timely plays in the passing game.
LIMIT TURNOVERS.

I think the last two should be stricken as givens, because they aren’t scheme or even necessarily personnel based but performance based. And since it’s a given that teams who perform well, do well, you don’t really need to say it.

That’s not a criticism. I just think that it would help to streamline your thought process. Frankly, I’m not keen on throwing my opinion into this fray right now.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 26, 2008 11:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The last two are not GIVENS.

When Jim McMahon was drafted by the Bears he was less than thrilled, as he had set a million passsing records at BYU and was now going to a team with maybe the worst passing offense in the NFL. Previous Bear QB’s were stalwarts such as Mike Phipps, Vince Evans and Bob Avellini. WHO????
The Bears offense was Payton to the Left, Payton to the Right and Payton up the middle. Their “passing” scheme was on par with a college program and mabe a high school program. TRUST ME, IT WAS THAT PATHETIC!

If McMahon had gone to team like the Niners or Chargers or Dolphins he would have thrown a lot more passes and enhanced his image as a “Great Quarterback.”

As it was, he had to settle for throwing Less passes but making them count more. The Bears back then didn’t throw OFTEN, but they made big, big plays in the passing game and limited turnovers.

The best example was week three (in 85) when McMahon sat on the bench in Minnesota as Steve Fuller started. McMahon was injured and didn’t practice that week. Finally, in the third quarter, with the Bears trailing 17-9 Ditka put him in. First Play TOUCHDOWN. When the Bears then got the ball back again, the first pass by McMahon . . . TOUCHDOWN.

Two passes, two touchdowns.
That’s an exteme example but that’s what I am talking about.
It’s not the Quanity of passses but the Quality.

It’s throwing less, not more. That helps limit the interceptions. But it also requires the QB to make some big plays in the passing game when they’re there. By contolling the ball with the running game you “soften-up” the defense which opens the door for some big plays in the passing game.

The key is HITTING on those big plays.

That’s how Singletary’s Bears won:

Great defense.
Contolling running game.
And McMahon (even though he didn’t throw a lot of passes) made a lot of big plays that year with his arm and he didn’t turn the ball over very often

While you are correct in that they are “Performance” based it’s also very definitely part of the scheme.

If Singletary can come close to replicating what he was part of in Chicago, you guys in S.F. won’t be disappointed. Yeah, it’s a far cry from the glory days of Walsh and company but trust me, watching your Niners kick the other teams ass will grow on you guys. You’ll learn to appreciate those 13-6 wins. Believe me, after what you guys have been subjected to in the recent past, you’ll learn to love it.

When Mike Ditka interviewed for the Bear’s HC job, George Halas asked him what his philosophy was. Ditka said “Don’t give me that S**T coach, it’s the same as yours. KICK THE OTHER GUYS ASS!”

That’s Singletary’s philosophy, as he learned from Mike Ditka and Buddy Ryan. The Niners might not win every game but the other team will know that they were in a dogfight.

I just hope for Singletary’s sake (and for you fans) that he can pull it off.

Finally, consider this(for symmetry). There have only been two “True Geniuses”, from an X’s and O’s standpoint in coaching during the past quarter century: Bill Walsh on Offense and Buddy Ryan on Defense. Singletary obviously has ties to both of those men. Not only that but the Bears pulled off a draft day trade with Walsh to move up in the second round of the draft in order to select Singletary (a move Walsh later regretted). Karma, anyone?

by GeoMak on Dec 26, 2008 12:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you almost get what I’m saying, but we’re not quite on the same page. I’m not saying that they are givens that they happen. I say that they are givens for success. If you are going to be successful, then you have to assume that you are converting a higher percentage of the plays that matter, whether that is in the passing or the running game. Saying “make higher quality throws” isn’t part of any scheme. Some schemes involve making higher percentage throws, and some schemes involve making lower percentage throws, just as some schemes call for throwing the ball more often while some schemes call for throwing the ball less often. None of them actually call for efficient execution because ALL of them REQUIRE proper, efficient execution to work successfully.

When you’re scheming a gameplan, and when you’re talking about schemes, you’re talking about gameplan variables, not performance variables. An example of a gameplan variable is, for instance (in a single game context) “We need to double team Reggie White this game” or, in a more season-wide context, “We need to get the ball in Steve Smith’s hands by running picks and screens because he’ll be double or triple covered if we send him on deeper routes.”

On the other hand, you have to assume performance variables as if they were constants. We assume Steve Smith is going to be efficient. We assume Shaun Hill is going to run the play as drawn. Your gameplan assumes that performance is efficient. Your gameplan is not performance. The gameplan isn’t “don’t miss a critical pass in the third quarter.”

I hope I’m making myself more clear.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 26, 2008 1:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess all I’m saying is that, the average fan loves offense. The whole “chicks dig the long ball thing.” In football, there’s no doubt that it’s great when your team can light up the scoreboard like last years Pats. I’ve got nothing against passing the ball. As Jaws always says: “You have to make plays in the passing game.”

I just believe in the approach used by Singletary’s Bears and, let’s say, Parcells’ Giants. Phil Simms set that Super Bowl record in 86 going 22 for 25.

I believe (like Ditka, Ryan, Parcells, Singletary) in a scheme based on defense, controlling the clock in the running game and 25 passes per game, as opposed to, say 40 + per game.
By pounding the other team with “Smash-Mouth” football in the running game and then hitting the open recievers when the defense starts to load-up the box trying to stop the running game.

When the Colts beat the Bears in the Super Bowl a few years back, I only remember a few long passes by Manning in that game ( I know that there weren’t many “LONG” passes). The first “long” pass was intercepted and the second was a touchdown to a wide open Reggie Wayne (due to a busted coverage by Danieal Manning of the Bears).

The rest of the game the Colts ran the ball and Peyton “dinked and dunked” the Bears to death! He basically threw 5 yard passes all night to his backs and tight ends. I mean, passes you or I could probably throw (LOL). Passes just behind Urlacher. Passes to the backs who just flared out of the backfield. Very, very high percentage passes.

The Bears didn’t lose that game because of Grossman. They lost because they couldn’t stop the run and because Peyton Manning “nickel and dimed” them to death. As a long time Bears fan I know. I knew it while I was watching the game and I really knew as I watched the replays of the game.

Look at Pennington and the Dolphins. He’s always been criticized for “lack of arm strength.” I don’t know how many passes they average per game but I know that they only have 12 turnovers this year and they’re on the verge of making the playoff. Bill Parcells. Some things never change.

by GeoMak on Dec 26, 2008 2:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe (like Ditka, Ryan, Parcells, Singletary) in a scheme based on defense, controlling the clock in the running game and 25 passes per game, as opposed to, say 40 + per game.

And that is a perfect example of a gameplan. Even if I don’t agree, and I may or may not, I can’t argue that you are in any way confusing the issue here. Each one of these things is something controllable which is perfectly external to performance. If this gameplan is performed efficiently, then the magic happens.

When the Colts beat the Bears in the Super Bowl a few years back, I only remember a few long passes by Manning in that game … The rest of the game the Colts ran the ball and Peyton "dinked and dunked" the Bears to death! He basically threw 5 yard passes all night to his backs and tight ends.

Which is another perfect example of a gameplan. the Colts’ gameplan was to take advantage of the Bears by running these short routes. Whether or not Manning & Co. executed it well did not change how the coaches came up with it. I think we’re finally talking on the same wavelength. I just want to keep clear that the plan and the execution of the plan are different things. I love that you’re sticking to examples right now that very strictly involve the plan itself. It really helps to focus your point, and I think it makes your argument significantly better.

The Bears didn’t lose that game because of Grossman. They lost because they couldn’t stop the run and because Peyton Manning "nickel and dimed" them to death. As a long time Bears fan I know. I knew it while I was watching the game and I really knew as I watched the replays of the game.

Look at Pennington and the Dolphins. He’s always been criticized for "lack of arm strength." I don’t know how many passes they average per game but I know that they only have 12 turnovers this year and they’re on the verge of making the playoff.

Now we’re headed back off track again. Nobody is ever going to argue with you that a team that commits fewer turnovers is very likely going to be in a strong position at the end of the season. That’s why I call it a given. Nobody wants to commit turnovers, so when you say “they shouldn’t commit turnovers” then you’re either speaking out loud to agree with a tacit point, or being roundabout in your complaint that the team does turn the ball over.

For the Bears issue, you start to confuse the point. Were the Bears ineffective against the run because they ran the wrong schemes or because they ran the right schemes poorly? If they ran the right schemes poorly, then they actually gameplanned the game correctly, but performed that gameplan badly. It’s an important distinction, and one that I’m trying to keep focused. Because as a coach you CAN plan for Peyton Manning dinking you. But you can NEVER plan for your team playing like crap. And I think it’s important to keep arguments focused on things that are under control, because there’s honestly no debate available for the things that aren’t, and all they do is get in the way.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 26, 2008 3:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Game plans change from week to week, opponent to opponent, and often during the game. I am in complete agreement.

Where we are “not having a meeting of the minds” is on Philosophy, not on Game Plans. If you asked Ditka, Ryan, Parcells, Singletary, in the off season, while no games were being played, what their Philosophy is/was, they’d say something like this: We’re a Smash Mouth team. We are going to kick their ass on defense and shove it sown their throats on offense. We’re going to pass the ball more as a “change-up”, to keep them off balance and to hopefully hit a few homeruns.

While I wasn’t in the meeting rooms with the Bears when they put in their game plans (on offense) I have no doubt that there were changes from week-to-week. That said, however, their philosophy NEVER changed. Just like Walsh had his own philosophy.

I hope that clears this up. I was always talking about philosophy, as opposed to game-planning. Every team has a philosophy. Some (like Ditka) were very vocal about it. But regardless, even if nothing is said about it, the teams philosophy will come through after watching game after game of theirs.

Anyway, I hope that you understand that I was talking about a teams philosophy. Ditka was never shy about stating the Bears philosophy while he was the HC (and it didn’t include having a wide open passing attack).

As far as the Bears/Colts I was talking about one (Very Stupid) play where Manning left his receiver (Wayne) to DOUBLE cover another receiver. He left Reggie Wayne wide open for an easy touchdown. Stupid Play. Mental breakdown. That play tied the game at 7-7. The Bears scored next to go up 14-7. Take away that busted coverage and the score might have been 14-0. No team has ever come back from 14 points down in the Super Bowl and won. Who knows. But how do you leave Reggie Wayne (of all people) to double another receiver with nobody covering behind you?

As far as the Colt’s gameplan, I really couldn’t tell you what it was. That team, as you well know, can throw the deep ball as well as anyone in the league. Maybe the rain was a factor in their short passsing game. Maybe it was the Bears coverage. Sooner or later, if you’re the Bears however, you might want to play them tighter and force them to beat you deep (as opposed to watching them nickel and dime you all night long).

They don’t adjust very well. This year they played the Titan’s at home and completely smothered their running game.

I think that Tennessee had 10 or so yards rushing by halftime. In the second half Kerry Collins picked them apart and won the game. While the Bears stopped the run in the first half they couldn’t/wouldn’t adjust to slow down the passing game in the second half. It was a truly strange game. The Titans spent the first half running the ball (though not effectively at all) and the second half throwing it.

It’s funny how some coaches can’t figure that out. Andy Reid was running something like 75% pass and 25% run during the season. After he benched McNabb he went to more of a 50/50 to 60/40 pass/run ratio and they won their first three games.

by GeoMak on Dec 26, 2008 3:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I won’t get into my feelings about phrases like “smashmouth football” and “kick their ass for 60 minutes” because we are clearly, as far as I can tell, on fundamentally different ground there.

I think where you’re saying Philosophy, though, I would be picturing this as a long-term gameplan. One that is variable from week to week, but ideally remains as the skeleton of everything else that happens. I don’t think we’re so far off in our understanding of each other there. I understand your point. I don’t agree about everything, but I respect the disagreements where they come from. I think this has been fruitful, and I hope you feel the same way.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 26, 2008 3:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am genuinely confused “as to your feelings about smashmouth football and kicking their ass for 60 minutes.” I mean this respectfully. I would like you to elaborate this for me. Again, I’m not trying to be a wiseass, so please don’t take it that way.

Insofar as philosophy goes, I will say this. I (unfortunately) now live in Phoenix. Ken Whisenhunt came over as HC a couple of years ago from the Steelers. Even though the Steelers now, with Big Ben at QB are more of a passing team than a running team the roots of Steelers football, of course, run deep. Everybody knows that. Strong defense and running game. Classic “SmashMouth” football.

Whisenhunt pretty much wanted to replicate that here. But Leinart “dogged it.” He came in here pretty much thinking he deserved to start and actually pissed people off with his terrible work habits (at leat last year).

And then they passed on Adrian Peterson to draft underachieving tackle “Levi Brown.” Can you say STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Cardinals are now almost the exact opposite of what Whisenhunt really wanted them to be. They are now a team with an average defense, almost non-existent running game, and an awesome (at times) passing attack.

The problem with that is what Warner recently said:

And his (Warner’s) discussion illuminated the perils that go along with their style of play.

“One thing about being a passing offense is that it’s so rhythmic,” Warner said. "It’s so much about getting guys on the same page and getting a feel early.

"It seems a lot of this team … goes by how we pass the football.

"When you don’t’ get into that rhythm early and you’re pressing and you’re trying to do too much or when you just don’t have it that day … in the passing game there are a lot of negatives that can happen when you do it as much as we do.

"That’s the nature of the way we’re playing right now. It’s easy to get into a rut. "When we get into a rhythm, we roll.

"When we don’t get into a rhythm … when everybody is not on the same page or there’s something another team is doing, it’s knocking us off a little bit.

"It’s tough. Its’ tough to recapture that and to figure out what we need to do.

“Sometimes you can after the beginning of the game. Other times, you’re pressing, trying to figure out what the problem is, and you kind of stay in that rut the whole game.”

The “passing game” can be seductive but deep down, Whisenhunt wished his own team played more like his old Steelers (or how Singletary’s Niners are going to play going forward).

But he’s stuck with it. The Cards will live or die with how well Warner and Company can put up points in the playoffs.

by GeoMak on Dec 26, 2008 4:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think “smashmouth football” and “kicking their ass for 60 minutes” are good examples of rhetorical talking points. With a few extreme exceptions (Randy Moss, anybody), I don’t believe for a second that there is a player in the game who doesn’t play as physically or with as much effort as they realize they can. When you say “smashmouth football” you’re pretty much just saying “you have to smash them in the mouth… knock them down… run them over…” which is nice to say, but it’s really the ends and not the means. How do you knock a guy over? Assuming, as I do, that both guys are playing as well as they realize they can (I’ll explain that in a bit), then how does one get the advantage over the other? That’s where coaching and technical skill come in. Proper footwork, hip position, subtle feigns… the mechanics of playing… things like these give players leverage and create the apperance of one guy playing harder than another, or kicking ass for 60 minutes. By doing the technical things, you create the ass kicking. You don’t just have an ass kicking.

It’s like if you say, “we’re going to build a deck.” and then when you explain to somebody how you’re going to do it, you say “I’m going to build the hell out of it!” Sure, you might be going to do that, but it means nothing as to how. So when you say “we’re going to work to win” and then explain how by saying “by beating their asses!” it doesn’t say anything meaningful. You still don’t say anything about what is actually going to get you the win.

But it SOUNDS good.

As far as a player playing well as he realizes he can, I mean that guys don’t always know if their footwork is off, or they don’t know that their hips should be in a certain spot, or they don’t know that this o-lineman has a certain tendency so they can’t exploit it. When they don’t know these thiings, they can play as hard as anything and still be really freaking overmatched. That’s where good coaching often makes the appearance of a guy playing harder. People say Vernon Davis is playing harder. I say he’s just playing better. I watched him come back on a ball last week when it was underthrown, not to catch it, but rather to intelligently break up a defensive play. I’ve never seen him do that. I don’t think it was ever because he was dogging it. I just think he didn’t have that skill ingrained in his apparently thick head. Now he does, and it makes it look like he’s playing harder. So he was playing as well as he realized he could before. But now he’s been coached to realize that he can play better. Some players coach themselves. Others take coaching. Others take both. But on a given day, almost no player is doing anything but putting out full effort. That’s a sure way to 1) lose your job, or 2) get really seriously hurt.

So when I see rhetoric or talking points like that, I assume that the person saying it is just unwilling for some reason to parse out the actual reason they see improvement. So that’s how I feel about “kicking ass for 60 minutes.” It sounds good, but it doesn’t really say anything about how that happens and it’s an easy way to get yourself out of actually thinking about the details.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 11:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll give you ONE example. Just one. It’s going back a ways, and there’ve been a lot of rule changes in the game, but the point I’m going to make is still valid.

Do you think receivers, when they ventured into the middle of the field against the Oakland Raiders when Jack Tatum was still playing, weren’t the “least bit concerned” about getting their heads knocked off? As opposed to all the other teams playing back then? I sure do.
Moreover, do you think Tatum was the most “talented” DB in the league, in terms of pure, God given physical talent ? I’m pretty sure he wasn’t.

More so than any other team and any other DB in those days, receivers were much more intimidated by Tatum than the average DB back then.

Dick Butkus?

SmashMouth Football is an ATTITUDE. Period.

Some teams/players/coaches have it and some don’t.

Ronnie Lott? SmashMouth

Trust me, not all guys are putting out full effort. And there’s a reason guys like Tatum and Lott and Butkus and Singletary and Ray Lewis ( and often the very teams they played on) stood out (way out) on a field of their peers.

And it goes beyond “natural talent.”

When you say “I don’t believe for a second that there is a player in the game who doesn’t play as physically or with as much effort as they realize they can” you are just showing how naive you are.

In 1991, the first year of the Philadelphia Eagles under Rich Kotite (who replaced Buddy Ryan) the Eagle drafter and offensive tackle in the first round Antone Davis. A great physical speciman. They actually traded up to draft him. He was a “classic underachiever” in Philly. Why? Primarily because . . . HE REALLY DIDN’T LIKE PLAYING FOOTBALL! See, he played cause he was big and strong and made a lot of money in the game, but deep down, he really didn’t like the game. he wouldn’t have been drafted by guys like Ditka and Ryan and Parcells and Johnson. And if he was he wouldn’t have lasted long. If you want to learn more about this I would suggest reading the book “Bring the Heat” by Mark Bowden.

You make the mistake of thinking that all players love the game and are giving it their all when they’re on the field. For some, it’s little more than a paycheck. Those guys aren’t “SmashMouth.”

See, what a lot of people don’t want to understand is that coaching matters. Ditka is/was as intense a player as there was in the NFL and he coached that way. Buddy Ryan was a master seargant in Korea when he was either 18 or 19. Players who were coached by those two guys played Smash-Mouth football or they played for somebody else.

People have this false assumption that players would end up being “who they were” no matter who coached them. Nothing could be further from the truth. All anyone has to do is read any of Jerry Kramer’s books on the G.B. Packers and they’d immediately understand that Lombardi’s players played “beyond themselves” in order to keep their jobs.

Great coaches like Ditka and Ryan and Parcells and Jimmy Johnson bring out the “most” out of their players. Crappy coaches don’t. After Johnson left discipline went out the window. Switzer won a Super Bowl with Johnson’s players but Aikman constantly complained about how lax things were under Switzer.
 
If you really think that "Smash Mouth " football doesn’t exist or that’s it’s not an attitude forced upon players by hard asses coaches I can’t help you out. Perhaps you can write Ditka a letter at ESPN and ask him if it exists. Maybe he can explain it to you. I’m not saying that to be a wise ass but I don’t know what else to say.

BTW: You can watch for yourself. Compare the next two years under Singletary with the past two years under Nolan. With largely the same players you’ll see a difference in attitude and mentality under Singletary. Actually, it’s already been visible.

You make the mistake in thinking that there’s no difference between Mike Ditka and Mike Nolan. Or first round tackle Anthony Munoz and first round tackle Antone Davis.

All of your talk about “technique” is blinding you to things like attitude and heart and desire. Undersized guys like Bob Sanders “seek and destroy” cause of things like attitude heart and desire. You’re missing out on one of the most important elements of life in the NFL.

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 4:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, you are putting an assload of words in my mouth that I never said and never approached saying. Let’s start from the top:

Do you think receivers, when they ventured into the middle of the field against the Oakland Raiders when Jack Tatum was still playing, weren’t the "least bit concerned" about getting their heads knocked off? As opposed to all the other teams playing back then? I sure do.

When did I EVER say that this doesn’t happen? I never never never said that. You think I’ve never seen a receiver shy from a hit? It happens on a week to week basis, for crying out loud! I said that saying a team has to play “smashmouth football” is pointless because it doesn’t address what they have to do. It’s the result, if it’s anything at all, but it’s not in any way the process. And if “smashmouth football” means “hitting harder than the other guy,” then there’s a whole mess of worms that opens. How do you hit harder when you’re going up against somebody bigger? It’s not just because you try harder. It’s leverage, mechanical advantage, direction and deflection of force, the position of the shoulder, the way the knees drive. It’s the DETAILS.

The problem with the word “smashmouth” is that it’s unbelievable general. It almost means nothing. So you don’t think that Jack Tatum was the most physically talented guy? Then HOW did he get such an advantage over everybody else? It wasn’t by saying “Okay, I have to try harder here!”

Let me give an example that might help. Take hitting a golf ball. If you’re hitting a drive, and you’re trying to hit it farther than the next guy, what does that entail? It’s not just swinging for the damn fences. You have to get your hips right, watch the position of your head, and so on… you have to be better on a technical level, not on some magical heart level.

It amazes me sometimes how far behind football analysis and thinking is in this regard. The way such a majority of fans believe that you can just gut your way through everything. I mean, even in boxing, which is the definition of the “kick the other guy’s ass” sport gets more credit than that. I never hear about how a boxer just wanted it more. I hear about how x came out sloppy with his footwork, how y excelled on defense, how z wore a out by keeping him off-balance and attacking the body. I head about HOW a guy did what he did.

So yeah, I believe that a guy like Jack Tatum can absolutely intimidate a receiver. He can cause a flinch in the middle or get a guy to pull up early on third down. But it’s not because he’s magically just playing tougher. He’s doing the small things that give him the advantages to win the individual altercations. But he’s not saying “I’m going to go out and smash him in the mouth!” He’s saying “I’m going to go out and drive low, holding my center of gravity here…. etc. etc.” It’s not always conscious (that’s the beauty of training), but that’s HOW it works.

Dick Butkus?

SmashMouth Football is an ATTITUDE. Period.

Some teams/players/coaches have it and some don’t.

Ronnie Lott? SmashMouth

Normally I wouldn’t even grace arguments that are rooted in old examples with a response. It’s the same impulse that causes guys like Bruce Jenkins to say “man, pitchers used to throw 350 innings a season” while ignoring things like the changes in the game or the way 7 out of 8 of the guys they cite were out of the sport by the time they were 30 because their arms were shot.

But let’s ignore that for a second. How did Butkus make such an impact as he did in any given game? By being the wrong position? By tackling with his feet? You know, as long as he was tackling with his feet in a smashmouth way, I guess it would have been just as good!

Listen, as much as any other sport, the NFL is about skill. That doesn’t always mean the biggest guy or the guy who can hit the hardest. Let me give you another example, if we’re playing the example game:

Jerry Rice. Never the biggest. Never the fastest. But more than any other player in the game, he knew how to come off his first step to be a little faster. He knew how to turn his hips on a break to get that advantage. He knew how to leverage every single situation in his favor by being a master of the details of the game.

When you say "I don’t believe for a second that there is a player in the game who doesn’t play as physically or with as much effort as they realize they can" you are just showing how naive you are.

This is almost where you take the most liberty with anything that I said. Again, I NEVER NEVER NEVER said that there is a player in the game who doesn’t play as physically r with as much efforst as they realize they can. You made a really convenient edit there, and it’s maddeningly disingenuous. And if you insist on taking editorial liberty with my words, I won’t even bother engaging you. What I ACTUALLY said was: “With a few extreme exceptions (Randy Moss, anybody), I don’t believe for a second that there is a player in the game who doesn’t play as physically or with as much effort as they realize they can.”

Yes, there ARE player who dog it. Those are the exceptions. The extreme exceptions even. You bring up one example of that in Antone Davis, almost as if to prove my point. you go on to say:

You make the mistake of thinking that all players love the game and are giving it their all when they’re on the field. For some, it’s little more than a paycheck. Those guys aren’t "SmashMouth."

Ahem, excuse me, but to be perfectly blunt: No I don’t. Again, I NEVER NEVER NEVER said that players are playing hard for the love of the game. I said that, with a very small number of extreme extreme exceptions, players are playing with as much effort as they can. Period. I gave no reason why they are. Some play because they love the game, yes. Many don’t. When it comes down to it, though, 95% (excuse me for being vaguely arbitrary there) of the players in the NFL are playing for their livelihood. Some lve the game. Most need the game. You know what: you want to keep your job in the NFL? Then you play the game hard. If you dog it, you get beat and you lose your job and you’re stuck bagging groceries in craptown, Wisconsin because your lack of a degree from Florida State doesn’t count for anything in the real world. Hey, you know what else? You want to stay healthy in the NFL? You want to not get your neck broken? Then you better DAMN well play the game hard, because the next guy is coming for you and he knows what he has to do to drive your neck into a ground.

So yeah, these guys absolutely know what is at stake if they take a few plays, a game, a season off. If they dog it a little. If they don’t put in the effort. There is a hell of a lot more at stake for these guys than the love of the game to get them to put everything out on the field. Don’t let your Randy Mosses and your Antone Davises blind you to the fact that most of the players on every single team are 100% replaceable commodities, and that they know that as clearly as anything else about their careers.

Guys play hard. Every one of them has a reason to put their all in on gameday (for more reasons than I even outlined here), and almost every one of them understands it.

So please, don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not the one being naive here.

See, what a lot of people don’t want to understand is that coaching matters. Ditka is/was as intense a player as there was in the NFL and he coached that way. Buddy Ryan was a master seargant in Korea when he was either 18 or 19. Players who were coached by those two guys played Smash-Mouth football or they played for somebody else.

I’m pretty sure that I said very directly that coaching matters. I’m also pretty sure that I went on to describe the details of how coaching matters. It appears you either didn’t read my words or you ignored them or you didn’t care or you don’t understand me.

Again, I’ll ignore that you’re uselessly arguing me from twenty years ago.

And again again, NEVER NEVER NEVER did I say that coaching doesn’t matter. What I did say is that coaching isn’t a matter of intensity. It’s not lighting a fire in your guys or running a military operation. It’s about making sure that your players know what they have to do to play better football. From teaching Vernon Davis when to try to make a catch versus when to try to break up the interception to teaching Chiloh Rachal how to get his hands under his guy’s pads a half second earlier. It’s about making sure your guys are aware of the details and that they are masters of them. Ditka managed to drive those details in by being intense. Ryan drove those details in by literally pushing his guys like soldiers. It doesn’t matter how you do it. You want your team to look touger, faster, stronger, scarier, more motivated? Then you get them to play better from the top down. You don’t just drill into them “BE TOUGHER, DAMMIT”

Great coaches like Ditka and Ryan and Parcells and Jimmy Johnson bring out the "most" out of their players. Crappy coaches don’t. After Johnson left discipline went out the window. Switzer won a Super Bowl with Johnson’s players but Aikman constantly complained about how lax things were under Switzer.

So, by things being lax under Switzer, you don’t think that could mean he was letting the details slip? There are plenty of successful coaches who were “lax.” Who weren’t slavedrivers. You want to look back in the past? What about Dick Vermiel? He might be the most player friendly coach in the history of the game. He’s also one of the most successful. Weird, I know.

BTW: You can watch for yourself. Compare the next two years under Singletary with the past two years under Nolan. With largely the same players you’ll see a difference in attitude and mentality under Singletary. Actually, it’s already been visible.

It has already been visible, and it to be perfectly frank it has absolutely NOT been an attitude change the way you make it seem. I’ve said it again and again. Singletary is COACHING the team better than Nolan was. In every instance that somebody cites a guy or the team playing harder or more motivated, I can identify coaching reasons why it appears that way. And I’ve said them here. Over and over.

Much of the reason the team is playing better is because the right players are playing. Shaun Hill’s playing. Jason Hill and Josh Morgan got healthy but, more importantly, got playing time. Bryant Johnson’s playing time has gone down. We’ve seen Manny Lawson starting games again. And so on. Player management has been remarkably better under Singletary.

The team controls the ball better, largely because of 1) Shaun Hill, but also 2) Singletary exerting pressure on Mike Martz to control the ball. We know Nolan left Martz to his own devices. We’ve seen Singletary in conflict with Martz. We’ve seen his impact directly.

Individual players? I already mentioned the coaching improvements we’ve seen in Vernon Davis. How about the improvements we’ve seen in Rachal since he was given his starts? What about the recently improved play of Abrayu Franklin? Keith Lewis?

You make the mistake in thinking that there’s no difference between Mike Ditka and Mike Nolan. Or first round tackle Anthony Munoz and first round tackle Antone Davis.

This is so far from any mistake I made that I’m not even going to address it. You’re basically making things up at this point.

All of your talk about "technique" is blinding you to things like attitude and heart and desire. Undersized guys like Bob Sanders "seek and destroy" cause of things like attitude heart and desire. You’re missing out on one of the most important elements of life in the NFL.

Rather, I think you overvalue ideals like attitude and heart because you don’t have to think about the game as hard if you can use them as crutches. I’m not saying heart and attitude don’t exist. Again, I NEVER said that. All I ever said is that the difference they make is smaller than many people want to believe. These people are playing at an absolute elite level. They didn’t get there by lacking heart or attitude. They all (again, minus the extreme examples) have it. It’s what got them to where they are I see it. I watch it. Yes, I do see it with my own eyes. I enjoy it as much as you. I’d just sincerely believe that the idea of the “intangible” is far too often just a rhetorical cover-up for not being able or willing to identify the tangible element that is actually at play.

I’d rather do the work to understand what is making the game work on the field than sit back and marvel at “grit” all day. Call me naive about that if you want. Just please, do not twist my words, put words in my mouth, or make things up altogether for the sake of trying to make me look inferior.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 6:39 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Dude. You REALLY don’t know what you’re talking about.

Dick Vermeil was one of the most “player friendly coaches in the league” (according to you). OMG. Yeah, Dick crys at the drop of a hat. And yeah, Dick really LOVED his players.

That said, there wasn’t a bigger “drill sergeant” or “SOB” in the league than Vermeil. In St. Louis, during his first two years, the PLAYERS THREATENED TO GO ON STRIKE (because he was too demanding). Ownership almost fired him. He then “toned” it down and they won the Super Bowl. An almost identical scenario played itself out recently with Coughlin and the Giants. Almost identical.

If you ever watched America’s Game, on the Super Bowl winners, the episode with Vermail’s Rams CLEARLY points this out.

Honestly. Dick Vermeil was the ultimate SLAVE DRIVER. Your disagreement with this fact just goes to show how little you know about this league.

Tell you what, though. Rent or buy America’s Game (the show broadcast on NFL Network and availablre on DVD and watch it. And then tell me (If you can with a straight face) that you’re right and I’m wrong. That Vermeil was a player’s coach who wasn’t a taskmaster!

OMG. That’s too funny. I scanned your post and that line caught my eye. Seriously, anyone who would make that comment has just proven to me that they don’t have a clue as to what they’re talking about!

Seriously, watch that show. Any coach who’s players have threatened to WALK OUT ON and ownership DEMANDED changes from would most asssuredly be described as a “SlaveDriver!”

OMG. You’re too funny for words!

Dick Vermeil. Player Friendly. Now I’ve heard it all!

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 7:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tony Dungy

Would you call him a slave-driver type of coach?

I’m not arguing for or against your points, but I do think this is where there is a critical divide in sports today, particularly baseball and football. There are plenty of folks who argue that old school intensity and heart and all that kind of thing. They find themselves directly opposed by the people who believe there is a tangible reason for what occurs on the football field.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 27, 2008 7:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I won’t lie about the fact that my opnions about these things are deeply colored by my exposure (and attraction) to advanced analysis in baseball and my dismay that football seems so far behind the curve in that respect, even to the very basic point of statistics (and, for whatever misgivings I have about their methods, thank God for Football Outsiders for taking things in the right direction).

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 7:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude. That moneyball and sabremetrics (SP) stuff might work in the front office but it doesn’t work on the field.

Football stands alone. It’s not war (but it’s the closest thing to it for those of us who’ve never served).

A friend of mine played for the Cowboys for a few years (alongside Irvin, Emmitt and Deon). He told me a lot of stories about “America’s Team.”

What a lot of people don’t understand is that even though most of these players are HUGE, many are still just “kids.” In their twenties. Spoiled rotten kids.

And what do kids often need? That’s right. Discipline. A good kick in the ass! Period.

And deep down, what do most kids want? They want to know that someone cares enough about them to discipline their ass.

I’ll take a drill sergeant over a laid back coach all day long in the NFL.

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 8:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here we go again. I never said “laid back.” I never said that a good coach can be a guy who lets things slide.

As far as “that moneyball and sabremetrics stuff” working in the front office but not on the field, I’m not sure what you mean. On a semantics level, I’m not talking about either of those things specifically, though, of course, they have plenty to do with what I am talking about. But more importantly (since semantics just aren’t that fun all the time), a successful front office has a very, very direct correlation to the product you see on the field. What works in the front office has to work on the field. Otherwise, the front office is failing.

Football stands alone. It’s not war (but it’s the closest thing to it for those of us who’ve never served).

Frankly, I think this is empty rhetoric.

A friend of mine played for the Cowboys for a few years (alongside Irvin, Emmitt and Deon). He told me a lot of stories about "America’s Team."

Oh good. One guy said something some time. I’m convinced.

And what do kids often need? That’s right. Discipline. A good kick in the ass! Period.

Now we’re dealing in absolutes? You like cliches, so let me push on with that theme: There’s more than one way to skin a cat. Discipline does not by necessity mean a kick in the ass. I’m not qualified to get into an argument about either human psychology or player psychology, but I know enough to realize that you’re being fairly narrow-minded in your understanding of both.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 8:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I need to step back, though. I’m getting annoyed and I think it’s coloring my tone. I apologize for anything I’ve said that has been out of turn, insulting or otherwise unfriendly. I don’t want to flame you because I disagree with you, but I hope you understand that it’s not always the easiest thing to bite one’s tongue.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 8:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, what’s your problem? You just don’t get it. Study Vince Lombardi. And then Tom Landry. They were both assistant coaches with the Giants for they got their own teams. One yelled and screamed his head off. the other never moved a muscle. Both were as tough as could be when it came to dealing with players.

One of Lombardi’s Players (I’m not sure, I think it was Henry Jordan) used to say: “Lombardi treats us all the same . . . like dogs.”

As far as that kid I know who played for the Cowboys, your response make NO F’ING SENSE (One guy said something some time. I’m convinced). He merely pointed something out that often gets easily overlooked due to the massive size of many of these players (actually his mother said it now that I think about it). That even though they are physically mature beyond their years, in many cases they are really just “kids.” Often from broken or one parent homes.

When Curtis Martin won some trophy one time he gave it to Bill Parcells cause Parcells was almost like a father to him.

Cliches become cliches because they’re usually true.

Football as “war.” The blitz. The bomb. That game between Buddy Ryan’s Eagles and the Redskins known as the “Body Bag” game cause so many Redskins left the field on stretchers.

How half the players have trouble walking as they get older. Please. It’s not war. Nobody dies. But it’s the closest thing to it on a weekly basis.

I never said that you said “laid back.” I said it. Tony Dungy is considered a great coach and a laid back coach. All I know is that even Sapp “criticized” that aspect of him and that the Buc’s didn’t win it all until “Chuckie” came in ( and nobody EVER called Gruden a laid back coach).

The greatest coaches in the NFL coached through “fear.” Their players feared being embarrassed, cut, traded and whatever else.

Fear is a great motivator for most people.

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 9:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Again, you’re trying to argue me from, now not just 20 years ago, but almost 50! Vince Lombardi is not a coach in 2008. I’m not willing to rehash all this same stuff one more time. I’ve made my point. I don’t need to keep beating my head here.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 11:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Vince Lombardi sits at the TOP of the coaching tree. All great coaches inevitably are compared to him (if they’re lucky).

This was the talk a few years back regarding Belichick. Whether or not he might be in the same neighborhood as Lombardi.

If you don’t believe what I have said about “Smash Mouth Football and Kick Ass Football” I can’t help you. I’ve heard Mike Ditka ( and many, many other coaches and players and retired players who are now analysts) use those terms a million times. Don’t argue with me, argue with them.

In 1984, the Bears went to Washington to play the Redskins in Ditka/Ryans first playoff game. Early in the game, Bears safety Todd Bell almost killed Redskins receiver Joe Washington. As Joe Theisman said later (and I’ve got on tape if you need a copy):
“Calvin Muhammad was so intimidated (later in that game) that he dropped a pss over the middle when there were NO Bears around him. The Bear defense definitely created an INTIMIDATION factor.”

That INTIMIDATION factor starts at the top, with coaches like Ditka and Ryan and their "Smash Mouth/Kick Ass Attitude!

Guy like Ditka and Ryan and Parcells and Coughlin and Vermeil and so on bring that with them to the job and it filters down to their team. Players who fit that mold are brought into the team and players that don’t are let go. That’s why it usually takes a few years for those teams to start winning.

As Steve McMichael said of Ryan and his drill sergeant mentality “It wasn’t going to be his fault (Ryan’s) if we lost.” Meaning that Ryan was going to do everything he could to prepare his men for “battle.” If a player messed up it wasn’t because Ryan didn’t prepare that player correctly from both a physical and mental standpoint.

With all due respect, I’ve forgotten more about this than you’ll ever know. Anyone that could label Vermeil as maybe “the most player friendly coach” in history just proves that to me.

Your biggest problem is that you almost completely dismiss the mental and psychological and emotional element of the game. All these players at the NFL level can play. They can all run, jump, block, tackle, catch etc. The difference is in things like Heart and Attitude and Intensity. Some coaches (usually the Hard Asses get more out of their players than even the players thought possible. A lot of coaches (usually the weak and laid back) get less. there are exceptions to this rule, but it’s a pretty good guideline.

A football team is a family of some 60-70 coaches and players who go into battle every week for a game that they’ve spent all week planning for.

The most effective coaches are the Sergeant/ General types that know how to lead their team into battle.

That goes all the way back to Lombardi and Landy. PERIOD. One was quiet and one was loud but those were two of the Hardest Asses EVER to walk an NFL sideline.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 9:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Forgotten more?

You keep talking about how you’ve forgotten more than people will ever know. Down below you say you forgot more about Singletary’s career than the other person will ever know? You talk in such absolutes and I’m just curious how you know this to be the case?

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 29, 2008 9:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I sometimes say things like that when I’m talking to someone who is really kind of clueless (like the guy who said Vermeil was one of the all time “player friendly” coaches).

I was born and raised in Chicago. I moved out to Phoenix when Buddy Ryan got the HC job with the Cardinals.

I am basically a 40 year student of the NFL.

In terms of games watched, books & magazines and newspapers read, and TV shows watched about the NFL (players,coaches, teams) few people can touch me. That’s just a fact. I also live alone and have never married. There’s a coorelation in there somewhere.

I have followed Mike’s careeer since he got to Chicago. Singletary was Buddy Ryan’s “favorite son” on the Bears. Mike Singletary is probably Buddy Ryan’s greatest accomplishment as a player. No player absorbed more from Buddy Ryan than Mike Singletary.

That’s why when that Vernon Davis thing happened I could see Singletary “channeling” Ditka and Ryan in both his words and actions.

I only use phrases like that when I get a little frustrated sometimes. Everybody has a right to their opinion. But when people say things like Vermeil was a player-friendly coach it’s obvious that they have NO idea what they’re talking about.

I hope this clears things up for you. I am not trying to be a wise ass. Since Singletary took over as HC I’ve been closely watching things which has led me boards like this. I have learned more about the Niners from reading things from yourself and others here and elsewhere.

Again, when people say things that are 100% wrong I get a little frustrated after a while. My shortcoming.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

not a problem

I just wanted clarification that’s all. I’m also guessing if I don’t end up married there will probably be a correlation between this site and that fact. I was thinking it over and basically I’ve been thinking about the 49ers every day for the last two years. I’d imagine there’s a psychological phenomenon for that.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 29, 2008 11:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ignoring your girlfriend for football games? We’ve all been there.

All the telltale signs:

  • Sitting motionless on the couch on Sundays.
  • Yelling at her whenever the Niners lose (or the Cowboys or the Fighting Favres or any other team we hate wins)
  • Initially, your transfixed look on the game is cute, but then it comes annoying
  • Thinking about Shaun Hill during sex
  • Yelling “It’s Good!” when you finish.

Okay, maybe the last two I made up, but still.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 11:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You guys a real lucky now. Being a Bears fan I’m soooooo jealous that one of our own is now coaching the “hated” 49’ers (LOL) and we’re stuck with Lovie Smith, a Tony Dungy disciple.

The MIke Singletary show is going to keep you guys entertained out there and is going to go a long way towards restoring your once-proud franchise to greatness again.

You guys may not win a SB under Singletary (though I’d be pretty optimistic) but you’ll at least be able to hold your heads up high (unlike the glory days of guys like Erickson and Nolan).

If you or any of your friends venture out to Phoenix to catch a Cardinals/Niner game let me know. I was going to go the game this years and see Singletary in action but I really didn’t want to sit around a million Cardinal fans cheering for the Niners.

Diehards like you and others just got the best Christams present possible.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 12:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As a matter of fact, I did get The Dark Knight on Blu-Ray for Christmas.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 12:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I got a pony.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 12:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I said one thing that didn’t jive and then I owned up to it. I don’t see what about that completely discounts either my entire opinion or my understanding of the game. Please explain.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 11:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Beyond the Vermeil thing, you said this earlier: “Coaching isn’t a matter of intensity. It’s not lighting a fire in your guys or runnning a military operation.”

See, you’re 100% WRONG! Period. Yeah, the coach has to scheme and game plan and coach technique. That said, some of the greatest coaches in the history of the NFL coached using the “intensity, emotional” side of the equation.
You don’t play the same position as Dick Butkus in Chicago and play for Ditka and Ryan and not play with a “war like” intensity.

Know how Parcells used to fire up LT at times. He’d walk over during practice and tell LT to really practice hard this week cause the tight end (playing for the upcoming team) used to kick your ass in college. And that helped fire up LT. Know how I know that? It’s simple. I’ve heard LT say it! Does it sound a little juvenile. Maybe. But coming from a guy like Parcells it helped fire-up LT. Again, I"M NOT SAYING THAT, I HEARD LT SAY IT!

There was no more intense player in his time than Singletary. You think that playing for Ditka and Ryan had “something” to do with that? I sure do. I was living in Chicago during those years. Please believe me.

I would LOVE to see you go up to Ditka and Parcells and Cowher and Singletary and say what you said in the above quote. Those guys would look at you like you just landed from Mars. Really.

You are really just missing one of the most important elements of “Great Play” in the NFL.

Is Peyton Manning an intense, fired up guy? No. He’s cool, calm and collected. He’s the “professor” on the field. Course he’s not hitting or being hit. You can get away with that at his position.

Almost everywhere else, intensity and heart and emotion are what usually separate the good players from the great players.

Didn’t you see Mike’s press conference after the Vernon Davis incident? The one where he said “Can’t play with them, can’t coach with them, can’t win with them . . . I WANT WINNERS!”

When he said “I want winners” did you see how irritated and agitated and intense he was? I sure did.

Bottom line, for most players on that team, they’ll be getting a steady dose of motivation and intensity from Singletary. Those that want to win as badly as MIke will stay. Those that don’t will be gone.

In Ditka’s first team meeting he had when he took over the Bears he said that “this team WILL be going to the Super Bowl. But as I look around this room, I see a lot of guys that won’t be here when we do.”

Before he officially took over the team he watched a ton of game film and figured out who was his kind of player and who wasn’t. And then he started getting rid of the guys “who were just picking up a paycheck” (in his words.

Gary Fencik said it was the first time while he was in Chicago that he heard his coach talk about the Super Bowl. Iron Mike started firing those guys up the minute he got there. One thing those players knew: There was a new sheriff in town and thing were going to be a whole lot different going forward!

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 12:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Beyond the Vermeil thing, you said this earlier: "Coaching isn’t a matter of intensity. It’s not lighting a fire in your guys or runnning a military operation."

See, you’re 100% WRONG! Period.

I don’t see how a completely subjective statement can be 100% anything, but okay.

Let’s get anecdotal for just a second here. And we’ll talk about Bill Walsh. I mean, you want to talk about coaching LEGENDS, right? So, you talk with anybody about the greatest coaches in history, and the list is pretty short. You hear Lombardi. You hear Brown. You hear Walsh. Not many others.

So Bill Walsh. There’s a famous story about Bill Walsh, involving something he said about coaching. He said he never tried to get his guys fired up. He never played the music or pulled the speeches. He said he didn’t want their blood boiling at kickoff. He said that was exactly what he didn’t want. He said he didn’t want it because when a guy is fired up, when a guy has his blood boiling, he’s sloppy. He makes mistakes.

He said what he wanted to get before kickoff was a team full of focused players. Not intense players. Not any of that stuff. Focus. Because if his team was cool and focused, nobody could beat them.

So please, give me a break.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The list is quite a bit longer than that. Landry, Shula, Parcells (not to mention George Halas).

I have stated before that walsh was a complete dictatorial disciplinarian type of coach. And he was. He was also more of a quite dictator than guys like Ditka and Parcells. He was more like Buddy Ryan in that he used dry humor and sarcasm, as opposed to yelling and screaming, to get his point across. And he did get his point across. You didn’t F**K with Bill Walsh.

Now, are you honestly going to tell me guys like Steve Young and Ronnie Lott, to name a few, weren’t “fired -up” when they took the field? Please. Yeah, you don’t want players too “hyped up” on emotion but yes, you want your guys fired up going into battle.

Walsh was every bit the motivator and dictator and disciplinarian and hard ass as those other coaches were. Here was just a lot quiter and more cerebral than them.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 1:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So wait, you’re saying that Walsh was lying when he said these things? Because it doesn’t jive with your point?

Well, let me just go back through all the things you said Ditka and Landry and Ryan were saying and explain to you how they didn’t mean those things, I mean… not seriously.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not saying that you are lying or that Walsh never said it. I just have a little trouble believing it.

Maybe both points are correct.

It’s often said that games in the NFL are won, not so much on Sunday, but during the week in practice. On the practice field and in the meeting rooms. Players always talk about how playing the game on Sunday was usually a relief for them.

I know that the Bears used to go all out during practice. Practices were brutal. Buddy unleashed the 46 defense on Payton and the offense. A lot of this was due to the Ditka/Ryan feud. Bear practices were so intense that Don Pierson, of the Chicagop Tribune, used to tell GM Jim Finks that “you should charge to watch practice.”

McMahon and others used to say that after going against the Bear defense in practice that the games were a “vacation.”

So maybe that explains Walsh’s statement. That makes sense to me. You don’t want your players out-of-control with emotion before the ball is kicked off.

On that level I can see him saying it.

All I know is that during the week and during the game your team better play with emotion or they aren’t going to win.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t see how I can present you with documented, anecdotal evidence that Bill Walsh had a philosophy in opposition to yours, and you can say that you simply don’t believe it while every piece of anecdote you bring up has to be treated as gospel, otherwise I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Double-standard much?

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 3:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

See your 2007-2008 NY Giants

Coughlin was a dictator that on several occasions almost lost him team. But over the years he’s “softened” a bit and changed his approach, which has apparently paid dividends.

Also, today’s game is vastly different than the days of Lombardi. Players make too much [more than HC] which handcuffs coaches. I star player with a big contract really has to mess up to get benched because it’s tough to explain to your Owner why his $8M dollar investment is riding the pine for showing up late to a meeting. More over, Lomardi would probably be a pretty crappy coach these days.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 7:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, Coughlin didn’t “soften” over the years. Just like Vermeil, he was told by ownership to “lighten up” or else you’re gone (actually called into the office to get that message). This happened to Vermeil before his third year and they won the Super Bowl that year. I believe it was Coughlin’s third year too.

Both Coulglin and Vermeil lightened up “a little.” They went from a 10 on the intensity scale down to around a 9. Guys like Wade Phillips and Norv Turner would be lucky to be around 5 on that scale.

You are correct in your points about salaries and things. Even Lombardi, in today’s game would have to “lighten up” just a little. Still he would have been a “Hard Ass.”

Recent Superbowl winning coaches in the past 10 years include Coughlin, Dungy, Cowher, Belichick, Gruden, Billick, Vermeil, Shanahan.

MY List:

Hard Asses: Coughlin. Cowher, Belichick, Gruden, Vermeil.

Laid Back: Dungy.

Billick & Shanahan are far closer to being “hard asses” than to being “laid back.”

Singletary is a Hard Ass. He put that out there with the Vernon Davis sideline incident and postgame press conference.

Anyone can see how the players have responded to him in a positive way.

The bottom line is this. Guys that want to win (Montana, Young, Lott, Patrick Willis, Takeo Spikes etc) respond to that type of coaching. Why? Cause they want to WIN!

Terrell Owens and guys like him DON’T respond to that type of coaching.

Bottom line: If you’ve got more guys like TO on your team than guys like Montana, Young, Lott . . . . on your team you’re not going to win REGARDLESS of who the coach is.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 8:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm generally confused

I’m not sure what’s even being discussed anymore. The bottom line is it’s all about accountability. I’m sure Dungy holds his players just as accountable as Coughlin, Cowher, etc. and I’m sure Coughlin, Cowher and all your other so called “hard asses” hold their players accountable in different manners. It’s all means and methods.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 10:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So what you’re saying then is coaches are the same when it comes to holding players accountable and other things? Is that what you’re saying? If it is you couldn’t be more wrong!

Guys like Wade Phillips and Norv Turner are too “lax” and it shows in how their teams play. Mike Nolan? Lax! Mike Singletary? Hard Ass!

Go down the list of great, Super Bowl winning coaches. Start with guys like Lombardi and Landy and Noll.

Almost all of these great coaches were considered “Hard Asses.” Guys like Dungy are the exception to the rule. That’s why he couldn’t win it all in Tampa Bay (according to Warren Sapp).

You make it sound like all coaches get the same results, it’s just that they do it in different ways. Nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe if guys like Mike Nolan and Scot Linehan (among many others) were more hard ass they’d still have jobs.

Again, though, don’t take my word for it. Go down the list of the great coaches in this league and you’ll find that MOST (not all) were HARD ASSES!

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 11:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Guys like Dungy are the exception to the rule.

Technically speaking, the exception disproves the rule. You can’t just throw out the outliers because they don’t agree with whatever line-that-best-fits you’re currently looking at.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 11:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, rules always have exceptions.

Of course, that doesn’t mean that if 90% of winning coaches are tough guys that they are winning coaches BECAUSE they’re tough guys.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And the idea of cause and causality (is that the right terminology?) that you bring up is EXACTLY why you don’t throw out the outliers. Because they are indications that the thing you are trying to prove one way is actually being caused by another force.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, in stats, you DO throw out outliers, but this isn’t a math problem.

Ignoring Tony Dungy is unfair, agreed. But that doesn’t mean the rule (good coaches are tough guys) is invalid. What is invalid is flipping it around without support (tough guys make good coaches).

Also, too much arguing, not enough discussion on Shaun Hill’s mustache.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 12:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, in stats, you DO throw out outliers

You do? Huh. I’ve been told that you don’t. I understand giving them a different weight, but discounting them entirely seems very weird to me.

I’ll take your word for it, though.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s pretty common to throw out the lowest and highest data points or certain data points that go beyond a normal standard deviation. Also, median is more important than mean (average).

That said, Joe Nedney ALSO had a sick mustache.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know, I’ve seen that in Olympic scoring (gymnastics, figure skating, etc.), but it never occurred to me that the practice came from stats (or anything, for that matter). Thanks for the knowledge.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 12:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also:

So what you’re saying then is coaches are the same when it comes to holding players accountable and other things?

Not only is that not what he’s saying, but it doesn’t make a shred of sense.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So what you’re saying then is coaches are the same when it comes to holding players accountable and other things?

No. What I’m saying is that good coaches hold their players accountable. Bad coaches do not. How coaches hold their players accountable is simply means and methods.

Sure being a “hard ass” might be the “popular” method of holding players accountable but it’s by no means is the only way.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 12:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And what you keep failing to understand, and I’ll try one last time is this: MOST (and I said MOST) Hard-Ass coaches have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM HOLDING PLAYERS ACCOUNTABLE.

And MOST teams that are undisciplined (as Jimmy Johnson says of the current Cowboys) are coached by laid back coaches.

It doesn’t mean a Laid Back guy like Dungy can’t do it. Or that some “Hard Ass” coaches end up as lousy coaches.

It’s just that, as I’ve said a hundred times before, you’ll see that most Great coaches were Hard Asses!

When Barry Switzer took over for Jimmy Johnson they won the Super Bowl. But the wheels started coming off almost as soon as here got there. Why? According to Troy Aikman, it’s because Switzer was almost the polar opposite of Johnson when it came to things like discipline and accountablity. And Aikman resented it and had a strained relationship with Switzer cause Troy wanted to win and really, Switzer just wanted to have fun and be popular with the guys.

Case Closed. Keep fighting this and looking for “exceptions” while being blind to the obvious.

Question. Why do you think that Cowher is the hottest coaching candidate out there? Cause he’s proven that he can win by being an intense, hard ass, motivating coach.
That’s why. That’s why guys like Mike Nolan and Scot Linehan will almost certainly never be HC’s again.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It must be nice

Living in such a simplistic world. But in my world 2×4’s aren’t 2" by 4" and there’s more to coaching than just being a hard ass.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 1:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess what I’m getting at, and maybe this is too complex for your old-school “40 year student of the NFL” brain, is that there is a lot more to coaching than simply being a “hard ass”.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. Otherwise army generals would be football coaches. That said, there’s not very many “geniuses” in the NFL when it come to X’s and O’s. Really.

Most players will tell that the plays are pretty similar. It’s the terminolgy that’s different. That’s what Farve faced in N.Y. this year. Learning different names for basically the same plays.

It come down to execution. Bum Phillips used to say this about the winningest coach in NFL history (Don Shula): “He (Shula) can take his’in and beat you’in or take you’in and beat his’in.”

What he meant was that Shula could take Shula’s team and beat Bum’s team and then he could take Bum’s team and beat Shula’s team.

And what he was basically saying was that Shula could take any group of players and make them better than someone else could. And he did that, not through some genius in X’s and O’s but by DEMANDING that his players play up to and then beyond their abilities. Classic hard ass. Shula was as hard ass as any coach in history.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 1:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"That said, there’s not very many "geniuses" in the NFL when it come to X’s and O’s."

I disagree and I’d argue that one of your prime examples, Buddy Ryan, was a great DC because he was a genius with X’s and O’s moreso than because he was a hard ass.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I said Not Many. I have also stated here before that the only true geniuses in the NFL from an X’s and O’s standpoint were Bill Walsh and Buddy Ryan.

That said, Buddy was a sergeant in Korea at 18 or 19 and he brought that “Hard Ass” attitude to his defense.

Tell you what. There’s a show on ESPN called Sports Century. It profiles sports people and teams.

They had an episode on Buddy Ryan and the 46 defense. It’s players talking about Buddy (like Alan Page and Mike Singletary, among others). Even Bill Walsh makes an on air comment.

Singletary talks about being benched by Ryan for the entire game, where he says that it was “The most humiliated he’s ever been as a player.”

I would be more than happy to make a copy of this (I recorded it and made a DVD of it for myself) and send it to you.

Really. It’s no problem. It’s no charge. I’d be happy to do it for you or anyone else.

It will definitely give you or anyone else a look at how Singletary learned as a player from Buddy and how he’ll coach as the new HC.

Really. I’m serious. It would actually be good for any Niners fan to watch. I’d be happy to do it.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 3:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think what gets me about this whole discussion is that you’ve changed your position a few times without acknowledging why or relenting in the idea that you haven’t. You started out saying that it was all about being intense and getting guys to play hearty, passionate, smashmouth football, and we’ve come around to being a hard-ass and getting guys to execute above all else. And there have been at least a few different versions in there with it all. You seem to pick the argument that suits you best against whatever the next person happens to be saying at the time, without paying heed to any of the reasons you’re no longer making cases for your previous points.

It comes across as basic deflection. Somebody argues you down, but instead of relenting to their point even a little bit, you deflect the conversation in another direction by disguising it as counterpoint so that you can maintain your superior position of direct opposition.

That’s what gets me.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I will say this again regarding the 49’ers. They had a perception of beeing a finesse team, cause of Montana and the short passing game.

That perception was totally false. They played great defense and were tough and physical on both sides of the ball. Ronnie Lott and Company. Nuff said. Roger Craig knocked out more than a few defenders with his knee high running style.

They went to Chicago and beat the Bears in 88 (I believe) when it was about 100 degress below zero.

Despite playing in “S.F.” they were a tough, physical team. They did, however, control the clock as much with Walsh’s short passing game as they did with the run.

Walsh was no less intense and no less a hard ass than those other coaches I mentioned. If anybody can find some player quotes to the contrary I’ll be happy to read tham and say that I’m wrong.

He was not a yeller and screamer like Ditka and Parcells. He always had that E.F Hutton quality (when he spoke, people listened to him). As I stated before, he was more the type that would freeze his players with just a look. He could also swear and yell. I’ve seen footage where he says to Paul Hackett something along the lines of "I know Paul. I called the Fu**ing play!

Unlike ’soft" coaches like Wade & Norv, Walsh “spoke softly and carried a big stick.”

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 3:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dungy is a class act and may be the most respected coach in the NFL. That said, Jon Gruden had to come to Tampa to win the SB. Even Warren Sapp (who LOVES Dungy) has said that Tony was too soft! That, to me, speaks VOLUMES! Period.

Also, let’s be REAL clear about something, PLEASE. No Peyton Manning, no Super Bowl trophy for Dungy!

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 8:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, let’s be REAL clear about something, PLEASE. No Peyton Manning, no Super Bowl trophy for Dungy!

Alright then. No Steve Young, no SB trophy for Seifert. No Brett Favre, no SB trophy for Holmgren. No Tom Brady, no SB trophy for Belicheck. No Aikman, no SB trophy for Johnson. No Simms, no SB win for Parcells.

I could go on. That’s a deeply spurious argument you’re making.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 8:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m just making the point that it sure didn’t hurt Dungy’s resume" having Peyton on board. I have often said that Holmgren should thank God for free agency. No free agency, no Reggie White. It sure didn’t hurt Holmgren having Brett and Reggie in the same locker room. Seifert? Good coach who rode Walsh’s coattails.

Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick built their teams. Dungy, Seifert and Holmgren couldn’t hold their jockstraps when it comes to building successful teams. Period.

That said, winning is a combined effort. The front office, scouts coaches and a certain number of players have to come together at the right time.

Luck helps too. The 85 Bears had almost no injuries during the season (except for McMahon being in and out).

A lot of things have to go right.

I’m not putting Dungy down. I just think that when a player such as Sapp “reluctantly” voices his opinion that Tony was too lenient that it carries a lot of weight (and that “Chuckie” had to come in to get them over the top).

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 8:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m just trying to make the point that a guy doesn’t have to be Buddy Ryan or Mike Ditka to keep his players in line, and I’m sure there is a long history of coaches who tried to be only to fall on their asses.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 8:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll give you two Bay area examples of what I’m talking about. Tom Flores and George Seifert. Both Flores and Seifert were far more laid back than Madden & Walsh (who I consider "Hard Ass.)

Both Flores and Seifert succeed when they took over the Raiders & 49’ers. Basically this was because they inherited great teams and did a good job of keeping things together. Also (and very importantly) both the Raiders and the Niners had enough veteran players (like Young, Lott, Howie Long etc) to make sure they did what they needed to do to keep winning.

Seifert then was the HC in Carolina and he was a mediocre/bad coach.

Those two guys were good coaches who did a good job when they took over winning teams. There is no way, in my opinion, that they would have been successful if they had taken over “bad teams” (like Walsh did).

They weren’t hard ass enough to build a winning program.

It’s one thing to whip a bad team into shape (as Walsh, Parcells, Ditka and Ryan) did. It’s a whole lot easier (in my opinion) to take over a winning team (like Seifert and Flores) did.

It’s almost like bringing in different relief pitchers. Do you want to rebuild a bad team? Bring in a hard ass. Do you want to replace a hard ass who has left behind a winning team? Bring in a more laid back guy (just not a guy like Barry Switzer to replace Jimmy Johnson in Dallas).

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 2:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Madden was a [explative] coach

There have been players on his Raider teams that have stated that they would have won more Super Bowls if it wasn’t for Madden.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 2:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s funny. Any “proof” as in player quotes? I mean, unless you knew these players and they personally told you, then it must be out in the public domain.

Where do you come up with this S**T!

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 4:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, so now we’re saying that being a hard-ass is the key to building a program, but not the key to being a good coach under other conditions.

See, this is what I’m talking about below. This is a completely different direction. I said something you didn’t know how to deal with directly, so you deflected it by taking a slight left in order to keep the momentum on your side. It’s a little exasperating.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why are you discussing this and not mustaches?

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 2:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Listen, when I get home I’ll come back and post an image of my face. You can all see my mustache, and this whole thread will all be back on track.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 2:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see you participated in Mustache Monday too!

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am saying that, if you look at most great teams that were built either completely or mostly by the head coach, you’ll find a Hard Ass at the top.

Don’t tell me about Dungy and the Colts cause that team was built by Bill Polian.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 4:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As I posted earlier regarding the past ten Super Bowl winners, all were hard asses except Dungy. Shanahan and Billick I put closer to Hard Ass than Laid Back. Especially Shanahan.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 4:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As I posted earlier regarding the past ten Super Bowl winners, all were hard asses except Dungy [according to my subjective opinion]. Shanahan and Billick I put closer to Hard Ass than Laid Back [because this is subjective and anybody can put them wherever they want based on their own opposing opinions].

Just to clarify.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 6:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

It’s hard to shift through this novel of nonsense. Suprisingly your definition of a hard ass is becoming more and more ambigous.

A hard ass to me might be Ditka, Cohwer and Gruden. While I’d consider Bellichick, Billick, Shanahan as being more stern than a “hard ass”. But whatever, you’ve learned less in your 40 years of watching football than a 3 year old learns in a quarter.

by methodrampage on Dec 30, 2008 7:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So let’s make this argument coherent (and obvious) – a good coach properly leads and motivates his players to play better and harder.

Different coaches have different approaches. Some are tough guys, some are stern, some are gentle, some are teachers.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 30, 2008 8:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No

If we’re to believe Geomack, there is only one way to skin a cat and coach in the NFL. You MUST be a “HARD ASS”, who apparently every successful coach, less Dungy, is eventhough though the coaching styles from one “HARD ASS” to another very drastically.

by methodrampage on Dec 30, 2008 8:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Indy Super Bowl

I agree on that. Of course I also think that while Indy is a tough team, I think they are not quite the smash mouth type of team. They’ve got some hard-hitters for sure, but even their running game with Addai and Rhodes was more of a finesse running game.

And even though they lost the Super Bowl, last year’s Patriots accomplished a whole heck of a lot with a finesse style of offense.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 27, 2008 8:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, I knew I was going to get hit for using Vermiel as an example after I hit post. Bad move on my part. Apologies, I was going quickly and didn’t scour every sentence I put down.

I’m glad to see that we’ve moved on from making things up to simply discounting everything I say because of one bad detail.

I’m glad you only scanned my post..Since most of it was involved in pointing out how you didn’t carefully read my other posts, I guess it’s only appropriate that you didn’t read this one at all.

How about Tony Dungy (I see Fooch already brought Dungy up while I was typing this)? Hell, how about Walsh? Walsh wasn’t an intense guy like Ditka. He wasn’t a drill seargent like Ryan. He didn’t intimidate, scare, yell or kick ass. He didn’t waste his time going on and on about Smashmouth football. But what he was, was obsessive about running the details to perfection. Game to game. Play to play. Player to player. Every step. Every turn. Every detail.

I’m not saying he was friendly. I’m not saying he was nice. I’m just saying he did things differently than you seem to be interested in accepting. But he still demanded absolute attention to detail from his players, and that was one of the keys to his success.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 7:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bill Belichick

Belichick is not the nicest guys in the world but a big reason he’s been successful (aside from having Brady) is his attention to detail. I think he’s along the lines of Bill Walsh in that sense. Maybe not an offensive genius, but he pays close attention to the details.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 27, 2008 7:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Belichick started breaking down game film with his father when he was a kid.

He was groomed to coach just like the Manning’s were groomed to play QB.

That’s all he knows and he coaches as well as anybody. I’m no Belichick fan but I’ll say this: If the Colts lost Peyton manning in the first game of the season I doubt Dungy would have them knocking on the door of the playoffs. Just my opinion.

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 8:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Fooch’s point is that Belichick doesn’t fit your mold, and yet he’s the most successful coach in the game today. It’s not a good match by any means, but he’s more in the Walsh mold than the Ditka or the Ryan mold based on his OCD-style coaching mentality. Furthermore, he’s never won by strictly playing the kind of football that you’ve been advocating. That’s a team that had its greatest success before it could run the ball and played defense based on schemes and confusion far more than physicality,

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 8:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I...

agree with Fooch and howtheyscored.

"The voice of the intellect is a soft one, but it does not rest until it has gained a hearing"

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 28, 2008 10:17 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

probably the most logical point made...

in this very long, very confusing argument.

by shlecko on Jan 1, 2009 8:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s the deal on Walsh. He looked like a college professor. But he could be as big a SOB as Ditka, Ryan, Parcells and all the others. Trust me.

You know how some people say “Just a certain look from my father would freeze me in my tracks.” For some people, all they needed was a “look” to get their point across.

See, people think that a guy has to yell and scream and shout to be a “drill sergeant” and that’s not necessarily the case. Buddy Ryan was actually relatively quiet, at least compared to Ditka, who was basically a raging lunatic.

Ditka and Parcells to me were LOUD. Walsh and Ryan to me were a little quieter but no more “friendly” than those other guys.

Base on his small sample as HC, Singletary sounds a little more like Ditka than Ryan

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 8:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s the deal on Walsh. He looked like a college professor. But he could be as big a SOB as Ditka, Ryan, Parcells and all the others. Trust me.

You don’t have to teach me about Bill Walsh. Trust me on that. I’m well-versed in Bill Walsh.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 8:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Walsh was an offensive coach & Belichick was a defensive coach (under Parcells). While their teams are known more for their offense, they both had highly rated defenses. You have to somewhat adjust to your personnel.

When Buddy Ryan landed in Philadelphia he inherited Randall Cunningham and his first draft pick was Keith Byars. His Eagles were always near the top in scoring.

Walsh and Belichick are/were every bit the hard asses that Ditka, Ryan, Parcells and Johnson were. None of these guys were “clones” of each other but it was definitely a “my way or the highway” mentality with all of those coaches.

To most people outside of S.F., the Niners had an image of being a finesse team due to Montana & Rice and their passing game. And yet, during their glory years, they always had a top rated defense. Just having Ronnie Lott on that defense made them difficult to deal with cause, much like Singletary, he was a vocal leader who made everybody elevate their game when playing around him. You didn’t want Lott dressing you down on the field for blown coverages and mental mistakes.

It is true that their offense, while physical, was more likely to defeat you by slicing and dicing you to death with their short passing game than by bludgeoning you with a power running game (although Craig and Rathman were no day at the beach).

And NOBODY is ever going to convince me that Bill Walsh was any less a “hard ass” than those other coaches I mentioned.

If anyone has any evidence to the contrary (stories, articles, player quotes) please let me know where I can find them.

If I’m wrong I’ll be the first to admit it. Til then, everything I know about Walsh tells me my assessment is true.

I have never said that Walsh (and Belichick) were “screamers” like Ditka and Parcells. I am merely saying that all of those coaches were as “old school” as it gets

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 11:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Who was trying to convince you that Walsh wasn’t a hard-ass? I said he succeeded by doing things differently than you had previoulsy laid out. Then, when I said that, you altered your argument from a guy who preaches smashmouth, ass-kicking football to a guy who is simply a disciplinarian in any form. You’ve based everything you’re saying around broad generalizations that you treat as finite absolutes, and you defend it all with examples that are no more recent than practically 20 years old. I just don’t see the point in going against that anymore.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 28, 2008 12:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Differently? Really?

Let’s examine this, OK.

Hard ass coach? Check.
Excellent Defense? Check.
Smash Mouth, control the clock through the running game. That part is different.
Walsh controlled the clock through a short passing game (along with the running game) as opposed to using just the running game.

Bill Walsh had a smash mouth, kick ass attitude towards the game of football. That came through in the way his team played defense and in the way he coached. Through his “genius” however, he felt that it was better/easier to control the clock, not with a wide open passing attack, but with a short passing game.

Now, I live in Phoenix. As we know the Cardinals wrapped up the division a few weeks back. Since then they were blown out at home against Minnesota and were humiliated last week in New England.

The rationalization for these back-to-back blowouts has been that the Cardinals were celebrating the fact that they won their division for the first time in a thousand years. OK. Maybe, I could see that in the first game. But last week they were absolutely PATHETIC in New England.

Like they were cold and just wanted to go home. Can you imagine a Ditka, Ryan, Parcells, Johnson, Belichick, Walsh and Singletary team playing back to back disasters like the Cards did? I can’t. Any of those coaches, especially after the first blowout, would DEMAND that they play competitive football in the next game.

I mean, if the Niner’s under Singletary played that pathetically in New England those guys would have had to hitchhike home. Seriously. I think they would’ve almost preferred that as opposed to having to sit on a plane with Singletary after a performance like that.

The Cards have (rightly so) been the subject of ridicule for the past two weeks.

Whisenhunt is scrambling for answers now. He came from the Steelers. Classic Smash-Mouth football. Even though he’d prefer to run the ball more he’s had to alter his philosophy because they have more talent in the passing game than in the running game. That said:

Their defense is average, at best.

And their HC either doesn’t demand that they play football at a level slightly above embarassing or else the players tuned him out.

I started out by saying that Singletary will coach using “Smash Mouth” as a philosophy.

Great Defense.
Controlling the clock in the running game.
Timely passing.
LIMITING Turnovers.

That’s the “blueprint” most coaches would like to use. Whisenhunt himself said so within the past couple of days. He’s not happy about the non-existent running game.

That blueprint, executed correctly will always be competitive and win in this league.

However, when you have a “genius” in the house (Walsh) or when you have a Brady in the house (Belichick) you “tweak” that formula. You don’t throw it all out the window but you alter things.

Trust me, if you put Montana & Rice on the field with Walsh calling the plays Singletary himself would go along with the program.

As I stated earlier, Buddy Ryan inherited Randall Cunningham and put him to good use. Buddy didn’t “abandon” his Smash Mouth philosophy and coaching style but he did alter it to suit his players.

They still played dominating defense and Buddy was still a hard ass. The only difference was that he utilized Cunningham’s talents. They were never an “air it out offense” but given the fact that Cunningham could “throw or run” for a 70 yard touchdown Buddy didn’t inhibit Cunningham’s talents.

Look at the Dolphins. 1-15 last year. Now they are on the verge of making the playoffs. They have:

A Parcells disciple as HC.

A good running attack with Brown/Williams

The “weak-armed” Pennington as QB.

And they’re on the verge of setting the record for fewest turnovers in a season. As of today they have only turned the ball over 12 times.

Are they an exact “clone” of Parcells’ other teams? NO. But they’re built in the the same mold.

by GeoMak on Dec 28, 2008 1:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Parcells built a team in the same mold as his other teams? Didn’t see that one coming. Interesting.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bill Walsh (RIP)

must be really uncomfrotable right now 6 feet under. Bill was passive-aggressive in dealing with the media, his players and coaches. You are right, he was never a screamer, but he was definitely hard on his players. He was a perfectionist. Maybe we should ask Bart Oates or Jim Burt to compare Bill W. with Bill P. Buddy Ryan was not a hard ass. He was a thug.

"The voice of the intellect is a soft one, but it does not rest until it has gained a hearing"

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 28, 2008 10:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Buddy Ryan was one of the greatest coaches EVER in the NFL. Buddy and Bill Walsh designed the two greatest “systems” in the past quarter century (West Coast offense and 46 defense)

Buddy’s player were coached to play hard but clean. Going back to Buddy’s days as an assistant with Namath’s Super Bowl winning Jets forward some of the greatest players in NFL history swear by Ryan as a teacher and a coach. Players such as Alan Page, Dan Hampton, Mike Singletary, and Reggie White (to name the most prominent).

All that “bounty bowl” BS. All legal hits. Period. Probably the only player ever asscociated with Buddy who sometimes crossed the line into “dirty” play was the laste Andre Waters. That said, Andre played that was cause he was always fighting for his job, not cause Buddy coached him that way.

Buddy was a master sergeant in Korea at age 18 or 19. He was the ultimate hard ass, his players played hard but clean and he created maybe the greatest defense in the history of the game. Buddy didn’t invent the blitz, but he perfected it. As John Hannah, the HOF guard of the New England Patriots said “Buddy was the first coach ever in the NFL to figure out that the defense has the offense outnumbered.”

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Buddy Ryan was one of the greatest coaches EVER in the NFL

Simply not true. 55-55-1 does not a greatest coach ever make.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 11:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Buddy Ryan

I’m guessing he means one of the best defensive coordinators ever (so best assistant coach). Maybe?

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 29, 2008 11:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah maybe. Buddy was a damn good DC but not much of a HC.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly. I’m talking about pure coaching. Like Walsh he was an X and O genius. And I’m talking about Buddy’s ability to motivate and inspire and make “Men out of Boys.”

Alan Page, Dan Hampton, Mike Singleatry and Reggie White (all HOF’s) can’t all be wrong (they swear by Buddy). Plus a whole lot of other pro bowl players like Seth Joyner, Doug Plank, Wilber Marshall and on and on and on.

As far as his HC career, he took over a terrible team and built them into an excellent team. He went to the playoffs in his last three years there. Even Mike Ditka, who was NO friend of Buddy’s, said “how do you let go of a guy who has his team in the playoffs three years in a row” when Ryan’s contract wasn’t extended (Buddy wasn’t fired in Philly. He had a 5 year contract and he coached 5 years).

Buddy did a great job in building up the Eagles. They did, however, lose their three playoff games.

I’m of the belief that they are varying degrees of success in the NFL. Buddy didn’t win the Super Bowl as a HC like Bill Walsh did. Scot Linehan and Mike Nolan didn’t either.

Buddy Ryan, as a HC, was far far closer to Bill Walsh than either Linehan or Nolan was. Nobody would disagree with that.

Also even though Buddy didn’t have the title of GM, he basically drafted his team (starting with guys like Keith Byers, Keith Jackson and Jerome Brown . . . Buddy inherited Randall Cunningham and Reggie White).

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"Buddy Ryan, as a HC, was far far closer to Bill Walsh than either Linehan or Nolan was. Nobody would disagree with that."

Wow. Are we grasping for straws here or what? Fooch is far closer to Tom Brady than Corky, from Life Goes On, but that doesn’t mean he’s much of an NFL QB.

Has anybody said that Linehan of Nolan were, by any measure, good HC’s?

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 2:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno, Fooch runs a mean play action.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Corky

And you assume I’m closer to Brady than Corky? NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING!

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 29, 2008 2:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m just trying to make a point. I could have used a hundred other examples. To some people Dan Marino isn’t a great QB cause he never won the SB. Even though I’m not a big Marino fan, I couldn’t disagree more.

Buddy did an excellent job in Philly, both in building up a moribound franchise and through his coaching.
He made the playoffs his last three years there. If people want to say he was a bad HC then that’s their perogative. It’s also wrong.

There are other things involved. Not to excuse Ryan’s playoff record, but Buddy’s owner, Norman Brahman was on of the cheapest owners in the league. All he really cared about was making money. Brahman was the TOTAL OPPOSITE of Eddie Debartolo.

Maybe that played into it somewhere down the line. All I know is that when Mike Ditka was defending Buddy’s record that says something, cause those two pretty much hated each other.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 2:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great Coaches

Buddy Ryan learned a lot about coaching from watching Henry Iba, the great college basketball coach who was a mentor to guys like John Wooden and Bobby Knight, among many other top flight college coaches. (Iba and Ryan both came from Oklahoma).

Beyond the X’s and O’s all great coaches are able to get the very best out of their players, both from a physical and mental standpoint.

Bob Knight and Bill Parcells are good friends who, back in the day, watched each others practices.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 2:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, Captain Obvious
Beyond the X’s and O’s all great coaches are able to get the very best out of their players, both from a physical and mental standpoint.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 2:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, it is important to have a good defense, an offense that can put points on the board, and a good coach.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 2:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, this goes to the central point, doesn’t it. Norv Turner is a Great offensive coordinator who doesn’t have the ability to get the very best from his players, at least as a head coach.

Parcells got the best from players like LT (Parcells was a defensive coach) and players like Simms, on offense.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 4:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Who cares

Marty and Norv can’t win in the playoffs. The End

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Dec 30, 2008 7:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dick Vermeil

Didn’t he give a bartender a job?

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 7:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah Mark Whalberg right

Simply by pulling on both ends, Patrick Willis can stretch diamonds back into coal

by 49erLou on Dec 29, 2008 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

That was pretty nice of him.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 11:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Vince Papale

Subject of the film Invincible starring Marky Mark

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 11:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I know

I was being facetious.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 11:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Everybody needs to take a step back and calm down

Respectful disagreement is fine, insulting each other is not. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 26, 2008 11:53 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Fooch...

he’s just getting what he deserves. What goes around, comes around.

2nd Infantry Division --- Second to None!

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 26, 2008 12:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just meant it for everybody in general

Things have been getting a little heated.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 26, 2008 12:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fooch, there has to be a point where you are allowed to rebuke an individual for merely spewing disdain rather than making an intelligent counter-point… I understand that you don’t want discussions to degenerate into name-calling contests, but if somebody is merely instigating as opposed to contributing, I definitely feel that they deserve a little backwash.

by Cruithear on Dec 26, 2008 4:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe that Fooch has that kind of thing covered in private, so I wouldn’t feign to feel like anybody is just getting away with being a jerk.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 11:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

When people bring up stupid points and pass them off as proof, I just laugh. The same goes for stupid insults.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Dec 26, 2008 1:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

When an individual backs up their “stupid point” with detailed information and you retort with, “That’s stupid,” you are merely indicating that you either lack the cognitive capacities necessary to rebuke the claims or that you are simply spreading disdain.

Please, act like a mature adult. If you disagree with someone, don’t call them or their ideals “stupid”; rather, make an attempt to detail why you disagree with that individual and perhaps bring them around to your point of view. Just because you think something is right doesn’t make it right, especially if you make no attempts to back yourself up.

by Cruithear on Dec 26, 2008 4:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cruithear

don’t bother with him. I’ve sparred with him before and it’s a waste of valuable time. He’ll just keep on with the insults, go after your pont of view and waste your time with not using reason or fact in his arguments. Waste of time. So how bout the throwback unis? Wonder if the uniform change is gna come next year or the following. There has been alot talk about it.

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Dec 26, 2008 4:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

unis

I think the earliest they could come out with new unis is 2010.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 26, 2008 4:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He He

I have to say, I’m really excited about the particular group of people against me in this thread. A confederacy, if you will. It makes me even more confident in my opinion.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Dec 26, 2008 5:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Unis

Ok. Just curious to know since there was talk of trying to get the applications for new unis in by i think it was October. Bummer. Just have to wait til then I guess.

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Dec 26, 2008 7:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And...

I couldn’t agree with you more, too, maveric.

"The voice of the intellect is a soft one, but it does not rest until it has gained a hearing"

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 28, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Couldn't...

agree with you more.

"The voice of the intellect is a soft one, but it does not rest until it has gained a hearing"

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 28, 2008 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't Distort Someone's Point (By maybe not reading their entire post)

I started out by saying that the blueprint for winning in this league was last years Giants which I then VERY QUICKLY tied to Singletary’s 85 Bears.

Your response: I read your first sentence and decided you were wrong.

A). You have every right to your opinion that I’m wrong. As long as you understand that if I’m “wrong” so is Singletary.

B) You “distorted” my point by making it sound like I was just into “copying” last years winners. Like I barely watch football and said “Hey, why not copy last years team? I mean, they won the Super Bowl so they must know what they’re doing!” My opinion was based on watching NFL games for over 40 years.

If you’re going to say that I’m wrong then you have to (in the adult world) show me where/how I am wrong and maybe show where you are right.

I have NO PROBLEM with someone disagreeing with me or criticizing me. NONE WHATSOEVER. Just say something intelligent to go along with it.

The fact is, not only am I not “wrong” but I couldn’t be more correct.

“Properly Executed” that blueprint will always work.

One problem with an offense too dependent on the pass is summarized by what Kurt Warner recently said:

One thing about being a passing offense is that it’s so rhythmic," Warner said. "It’s so much about getting guys on the same page and getting a feel early.

"It seems a lot of this team … goes by how we pass the football.

"When you don’t’ get into that rhythm early and you’re pressing and you’re trying to do too much or when you just don’t have it that day … in the passing game there are a lot of negatives that can happen when you do it as much as we do.

"That’s the nature of the way we’re playing right now. It’s easy to get into a rut. "When we get into a rhythm, we roll.

"When we don’t get into a rhythm … when everybody is not on the same page or there’s something another team is doing, it’s knocking us off a little bit.

"It’s tough. Its’ tough to recapture that and to figure out what we need to do.

“Sometimes you can after the beginning of the game. Other times, you’re pressing, trying to figure out what the problem is, and you kind of stay in that rut the whole game.”

If a team plays great defense and can run the ball, they’ll ALWAYS be in the game. And by limiting turnovers. You think the fact that Miami has only turned the ball over 12 times this year (as they’re about to set a record for the least turnovers in a year) has something to do with their won/loss record? I do.

To some people it’s Ugly, Boring football (I happen to disagree) but it works.

by GeoMak on Dec 26, 2008 2:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Geo, I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but each post you’ve put up here has been too long. When you comment on someone distorting someone’s point by maybe not reading their entire post, it might be because you’ve written close to a million words on this post, so it’s too much to sift through.

My only point being, as someone who is known to ramble, I’ve found it’s best to make your point in a very concise manner, or you’re too likely to lose your point and/or your audience.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Dec 27, 2008 2:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You lost me at “mean”

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 2:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Point taken. Hey, I’m lonely and bored. What can I say?

(The above post is 11 words under a million(LOL).)

by GeoMak on Dec 27, 2008 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Point taken. Hey, I’m lonely and bored.

I think they have websites for that…

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 10:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Alright...

Fooch and Howtheyscored, truce it is. But, can anyone please tell us who those people are that Maiocco had mentioned. Not that they are unknown commodity, but, what are their credentials? How legit are they? I think Denny Green and Ken Margerum should also be considered.

Here is Bill Walsh’s mini coaching tree:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaching_tree

2nd Infantry Division --- Second to None!

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 26, 2008 4:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

OC's

Are you talking about the guys he mentioned in this article?

The names he threw out were Mike McCoy (Panthers), Craig Johnson (Titans) and Pete Carmichael Jr. (Saints). He acknowledged it was pure speculation. He mentioned he was basing that on his own report that if Martz was cut loose the 49ers would look at young QB coaches.

Dennis Green is certainly an option, but if he does a good job doesn’t that put the team in a position where he’d go for a head coaching job after that and thus leave us in transition again? I suppose that’s always an issue, but with a younger coach you might at least get a few years out of him as an OC.

When we get into the offseason I’m definitely planning on doing more research into options, including chatting with other bloggers here at SB Nation. Definitely more to come on that.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 26, 2008 4:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No disrespect to anyone here but Singletary has almost 20 years in the league. I’m sure he has a few people in mind as the OC. Maybe someone who’s just a position coach right now. Singletary isn’t going to fail on this job by not getting the right guy as OC and by not running things the way he thinks will be successful.

As far a Dennis Green is concerned he sat up in his office in Phoenix in did almost no coaching at all when he was there. He also, in a roundabout way cost the Cards Adrian Peterson. Green refused to play Leonard Davis at guard, his best position, instead forcing him into playing tackle (cause he thought that since he was making “tackle” money that he should play tackle instead of guard) . As a result, Davis left in FA to the Cowboys and the “powers that be” in Arizona decided that they would draft Levi Brown, in part to replace Davis and passed on Peterson. Big, Big Mistake.

There’s no way that Green is going to be OC under Singletary. Besides, Brian Billick was the OC when Green had his best season in Minnesota.

Whoever it is it will be someone Singletary wants and shares his vision for the offense.

Trust in Singletary. In roughly half a season he’s taken a directionless, uninspired team and, but for a few plays here and there (Miami & Arizona) , he’s brought them into respectability and on the edge of being in the playoffs.

by GeoMak on Dec 26, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like your input.

The thing we have to understand is that ESPN or anyone else do not know what Singletary has in mind for the OC. He may do several things and if he does replace Martz then it will be with someone who he knows can do the job.

I trust Singletary’s instincts and look forward to discussing his choice once he is officially made the Head Coach and makes his OC decision.

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"

by Eastbayjim on Dec 26, 2008 5:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup...

it was that article. And, yup, Green would certainly do that. Much like what Mike Shanahan did to the team and good old Mr. Norv Turner. I think the hardest part is getting a young OC, and not being able to take control much of his offense. I mean, the 49ers have decent players to revolt, unlike TO (Team obliterator, as Skip Clueless calls him). But, if the offense doesn’t click, it might spell trouble for the team and instead of progressing, continues to regress. I am really concerned about the state of the team. I do like the system that John Fox and Jeff Fisher have.

2nd Infantry Division --- Second to None!

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 26, 2008 4:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Continue to regress?

By saying “continues to regress,” do you think they’re regressing at the present time? They’ve had some offensive troubles at times but I think we’ve seen improvement and a little bit more consistency since Singletary took over. Obviously the Rams game was a stinker for the most part, but every team gets those. So, I guess, I’m just trying to clarify “continues to regress.”

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 26, 2008 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This may not help, but I'm going to pull a FloridaDanny here

The team offense DVOAs from 2004 are:

2004: -22.8%
2005: -39.8%
2006: -7.8%
2007: -30.5%
2008: -17.5%

So, there is a definite improvement since 2004 though a regression since 2006. Since there isn’t a real pattern there, it is difficult to make any comments on regression OR progression.

Big note: 2006 was the year of the Turner, so perhaps that is a strong argument as to pursuing him should he come available?

by Cruithear on Dec 26, 2008 4:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Norv

If Norv was fired by San Diego I definitely think he’s worth pursuing. If he’s fired I think it would several years before people would consider giving him another head coaching position, if at all. I don’t think many of us are surprised that he’s stunk up the joint in San Diego. Yes, Tomlinson has regressed big time, but there’s still a lot of talent on that team.

The problem though is that all the reports are that he’s not going to be canned, as amazing as that seems to me.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by Fooch on Dec 26, 2008 5:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The stupidity of some NFL owners & GMs never ceases to amaze me. While Norv’s an excellent OC he has proven, on multiple occasions, that he doesn’t have the leadership skills necessary to succeed as a HC in this league. When one of you own players says that as a HC he’s (Turner) a great OC you know you’re in trouble. I forget who the player on the Chargers was that said that this year was but you gotta give the guy credit for being honest.

If anything, I think that San Diego would be a good place for Martz as HC. I’m not sold on his HC ability but he sure couldn’t do worse than Norv there.

by GeoMak on Dec 26, 2008 6:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Norv in San Diego was never supposed to be a “coach.” He was ALWAYS supposed to be AJ Smith’s tool. The two are good friends. Norv knows he can make a paycheck. All he has to do is let AJ run things. That works great sometimes in baseball (like Billy Beane and his tool managers… and I think that’s the kind of system Smith had in mind). Unfortunately for both, it doesn’t really work that way in the NFL.

Mind you, this is all, in every way, my personal opinion, and is in very few ways determined by fact.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 27, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup...

I agree with Geo.

2nd Infantry Division --- Second to None!

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 27, 2008 12:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know that firing Norv...

citing that he’s a “good OC, but a bad HC” – and then replacing him with Mike Martz, who has been accused of the same thing…really makes much sense for San Diego.

by shlecko on Jan 1, 2009 8:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If they get blown out by Denver

he might get the boot I’d think.

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Dec 26, 2008 7:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I bet he gets the boot either way. The perception is that that team really underachieved this year, with no regard to the defense getting zero contribution from its best player.

by cornball on Dec 28, 2008 10:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Is it possible to underachieve in the regular season and make the playoffs?

Marty went like 14-2 in the regular season and then lost in SD’s first playoff game and got fired. Norv wins a couple of playoff games and they far from underachieved. Is San Diego going to keep firing coaches if they don’t make it to the Super Bowl?

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 11:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know at what point it became better to end up 11-5 with some bad losses and lose to the Patriots in the playoffs than to end up 14-2 with the best record in the NFL and lose to the Patriots in the playoffs.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 11:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Basically

My comment was a little unclear. Regular season records are pointless once you’re in the playoffs. Going 8-8 is just as good as 14-2 (granted you win your first playoff game to get to the Divisional Round). So it’s my opinion that Norv’s ‘07 season where the Chargers went 11-5 and made it to the AFC Championship game was more successful than Marty’s ’06 season where the Chargers lost in the Divisional Round. Thus is San Diego makes it to the Divisional Round their ’08 season would have been just as successful as their ’06 season and more so if they make it to the AFC Championship game.

Simple put, it’s better to go further in the playoffs. Duh.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 1:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not disagreeing, just not sure if you can fairly compare two seasons to the other when they both ended up losing to the same team.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 2:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Same team by name

But the ’07 Patriots we not the same team as the ’06 Patriots.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 2:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is also true...

But the Chargers just match up poorly against Tom Brady.

I have no new information on that at this time.

by Rishi on Dec 29, 2008 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Norv came in and was handed an excellent team that Marty built up (through the draft and through his coaching). I really think SD winning in the playoffs was due more to the players “experience” as they learned from their past playoff losses. I would put more emphasis on the players than on Norv for last years playoff wins.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 2:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There’s a pattern of credit and discredit running through your comments here. The guys you call good coaches get credit for the good things that happened while they were there, but you discredit the bad things that happened while they were there as being on the shoulders of others. Case in point being Buddy Ryan’s overall record as a head coach. Meanwhile, when there is a guy who you don’t include amongst your good coaches, you credit him for the bad things that happened while he was there, but discredit the good things that happened as being on the shoulders of others.

Why shouldn’t Norv Turner get credit for winning a playoff game last season, and, likewise, why shouldn’t he get credit for taking his team to the playoffs again this season? I’m not saying he shouldn’t also get credit for the clear negatives you see with that team, but you see what I’m saying.

Also likewise, why shouldn’t Buddy Ryan be held accountable for his overall record as a head coach?

This is a major problem in the way you’re approaching these things.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW

Norv won 2 playoff games last year.

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 3:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice catch

And even better!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 3:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Look. here’s the difference. As I posted somewhere else, Buddy took over a terrible team in Philly. He drafted the players and they went to the plyoffs the last three years in a row that he was there. Even Ditka, who “hates” Buddy Ryan said at the time that it’s hard to justify not extending the contract of a coach after three consecutive playoff appearances. While they lost all three playoff games, there’s no doubt thet Buddy did an excellent job building up the Eagles from a personnel standpoint and in coaching them to three consecutive playoff appearances. Buddy’s time in Phoenix is another story for another day.

Norv didn’t build anything. He did win in the playoffs last years so you have to given him credit. He went further in the playoffs with Marty’s guy than Marty did. This year they have, for most of the year, been considered one of the biggest disappointments in football. They did just barely sneak in to the playoffs.

Norv is an excellent OC who always underachieves as a HC. It’s my personal opinion that, even though I can’t quantify or prove it, that last years playoff success is due to another year of maturation of players such as Phillip Rivers as opposed to anything that Turner did as far as game plans and motivation are concerned.

Tell you what though. If Norv gets the Chargers into the Super Bowl this year, I’ll give him his props.

I always give more credit to the guys that BUILT & COACHED the teams (like Bill Walsh & Jimmy Johnson) over the guys who win when they take over those teams (like George Seifert and Barry Switzer).

Look at Singletary. Nolan left him with a decent collection of talent who have been playing with very little passion and conviction. If the Niner’s get to and win in the playoffs in the near future, it will be because of Singletary. It’s not like he’s taken over a veteran group of players led by Young and Rice and Lott and so on as was the case with Seifert.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

First off, I don’t think Marty should have gotten fired. But be that as it may, he did get fired for not winning in the playoffs. Norv won in the playoffs last year. The original discussion was if Norv was going to get fired or not even if they make the playoffs, which they did. If Norv wins a playoff game again this year he did what Marty didn’t, again. Despite have worse regular season records than Marty, Norv is doing what he was hired to do, win playoff games, so how could SD fire him?

by methodrampage on Dec 29, 2008 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Marty was fired because him and the GM, A.J. Smith eventually got to the point where they weren’t speaking to each other. It’s almost unheard of to fire a 14-2 coach. Even one with a poor playoff record like Shottenheimer had. But the fact is that his crappy playoff record gave Smith an “out” as far as getting rid of Marty and allowed him to bring in someone with a real crappy record as a HC to be the new HC of the Chargers. Smith wanted someone who he’d be sure he’d get along with and figured that the chargers were so talented that they’d be fine no matter who coached them.

There are two seasons in the NFL. The regular season and the post season. I’m not going to put words in your mouth but you’re almost making it sound like Marty could only win in the regular season, and that Norv, while he may struggle in the regular season, has some magic elixer when it comes to winning in the playoffs.

You can’t take away the fact that the Chargers won two playoff games under Norv but again, as I say, I think that had more to do with the players playing than the coaches coaching.

What I’m going to say now is a stretch, but there’s a definite element of truth to it. If a HC has trained his players well all season and has gotten them to play, week in and week out, to the best of their abilities, they should function pretty well if he wasn’t even there. If the OC & DC have put the game plans together during the week (with the HC overseeing everything) and if, like I said, the players were trained all season to play at a high level, if the HC got into a car accident on the way to the stadium and couldn’t be there, the players (and coaches) should almost be trained on exactly what to do and be able to do it. Of course, some other coach would have to be in charge of challenges and 4th down plays an so on.

All the work happens during the week with practice and game planning. On Sunday it’s just a matter of going out and doing it. I’ve heard many players say that they love Sunday, cause, after having the coaches in their face all week, on Sunday they’re pretty much out there on their own.

I’m not talking about a coach (like Walsh) who had to call the plays. I do know that the 80’s Bears felt that way about Ditka. He had coached them all week, week after week, season after season, on how to play the game. On Sunday, guys like McMahon and others pretty much tried to ignore his ranting and raving. The players knew what to do on Sunday. The OC called the plays on offense and Buddy called the plays on defense. In a strange way Ditka was the least important person there on Sundays. Monday through Saturday he rode their asses. Sunday the players got to just play the game.

by GeoMak on Dec 29, 2008 7:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bottom line

If Marty wins that Partiots game, which they totally blew, he doesn’t get fired.

I’m starting to think you just like hearing yourself talk or is it reading yourself type.

by methodrampage on Dec 30, 2008 7:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A. They didn’t totally blow the Pats game. At the end, when one of the Chargers DB’s intercepted Brady, if he had just fallen down, the game is OVER. Instead, he tried to run with the ball, fumbled, the Pats recovered, scored and won.

B. Obviously, if The Chargers win, Marty probably stays.

C. As I said, losing that game gave Smith the opening he needed to fire Marty. It is somewhat problematic when the HC & GM don’t speak to each other. Not a good way to run a business or a football team. At that point, pretty much someone has to go. Since Smith was tighter with the Spano’s family, it was Marty who was sent packing. I’m not saying it’s right, that’s just the way it is.

D. If you disagree with “C” above, send an email to ESPN analyst and former HC Jim Fassel. That was his take on this last year.

E. Norv and Wade are two “laid back” coaches who coached two of the most talented teams in the league. One (the Cowboys) is out of the playoffs and the other (the Chargers) just barely made it. The Cowboys were the most undisciplined team in the football, leading the league in penalties and second in turnovers.

Yesterday, Wade said that even though he’ll always be a laid back guy, he’s going to start changing the way he does things. Meaning he’s going to get tougher with the players. That’s laughable.

The problem with MOST laid back guys as head coaches is this: they are unable to fulfill the NUMBER 1 duty of a HC. The NUMBER 1 duty of a head coach is to come into a team, especially a team that didn’t just win the Super Bowl (as George Seifert did) and to instill discipline and accountability on that team. To make sure that all players and coaches know exactly what their own duties are and to make sure that they are doing those duties at no less than 100%. It’s to make sure that the entire team is on the same page . . . and that’s winnning. Not in who catches the most passes, like TO. It’s in making sure that all 53 players and all the coaches come together, to work as a family and to do everything they can to accomplish the only goal they have: WINNING FOOTBALL GAMES.

Notice, I said MOST laid back coaches. Some, like Tony Dungy, are able to this. The fact of the matter is that most other guys, like Norv and Wade (and Nolan and Linehan and Cameron and the list goes on forever), are unable to do this.

A guy like Singletary can. He showed it during his time as HC. He immediately set the tone for how things were going to be. That was his biggest contribution.

From an X’s and O’s standpoint he told his DC to simply things and he told his OC to play Hill and to run more.

But there’s no doubt about it, his biggest statement to the team and to a national audience came when he told Vernon Davis to go back to the locker room and when he screamed in his postgame press conference “I WANT WINNERS.”

That let everyone know that things were going to be completely different now that Singletary was in charge instead of Nolan.

That’s the HC’s number 1 duty.

It’s funny. If a guy can do that, the exact same players start playing better and the exact same coaches start coaching better.

Why did the 49’ers play better under Singletary than Nolan? They didn’t bring in any new players. In fact, they lost their best player (Gore) to injury for a couple of games. They didn’t bring in any new coaches. Why did they play harder and better?

A. First, Singletary changed the teams attitude (the NUMBER 1 job of a HC).
B. He simplified the defense.
C. He changed QB’s and ran more.

I would strongly suggest that without (A) (B&C) wouldn’t have been nearly as effective.

Please, it’s not my fault if you can’t see or understand this as I have literally spelled it out for you.

by GeoMak on Dec 30, 2008 8:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“A. They didn’t totally blow the Pats game. At the end, when one of the Chargers DB’s intercepted Brady, if he had just fallen down, the game is OVER. Instead, he tried to run with the ball, fumbled, the Pats recovered, scored and won.”

You’re talking about one play as if that was the Chargers only chance to win, and Marty didn’t make any mistakes. This just in: it wasn’t, and he did. While Marty couldn’t do anything to about that pick and fumble by Marlon McCree (the DB in question), the Chargers made several strategic blunders Marty could control.

For instance, in the 1st quarter of the game, Marty chose to go for it on 4th and 11 at the Pats 30 yard line rather than kick a FG with a Pro Bowl kicker. Let me repeat that because you seem very strong on details: In a 0-0 playoff game at home, in the 1st quarter, Schottenheimer decided it was a higher percentage play to go for it on a 4th down an 11 against the Pats D, then kick a 47-yard FG with a Pro Bowl kicker for the lead. They didn’t get the 1st down, and ended up losing by (yep, you guessed it) three points. Which brings me to…

Marty had the Chargers try a 54-yard FG to tie the game with :08 left even though it was only 2nd down and they had enough time to run one more play to get a little closer. So, to recap: 47-yard FG = so hard it’s not worth trying, 54-yard FG = so easy it’s not worth trying to get closer.

This doesn’t include several other questionable strategic moves. Most glaringly, despite having the lead, San Diego almost completely ignored their best offensive weapon (and the best in the league), LaDainlian Tomlinson, in the 2nd half. Instead, Rivers (a first-year starter) was allowed throw and throw — including an incredibly damaging pick — and the Chargers were unable to run any time off the clock, allowing the Pats to come back and win. So much for MartyBall.

Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 1:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What’s with you people. I never said that Marty coached a PERFECT game. Did I? It’s just when someone says they “totally blew” a game I don’t think of a game whereby if the DB just stayed on the ground the game is over. They could’ve/should’ve won a game that they were probably the underdogs in. That’s not BLOWING A GAME.

Marty has a LONG HISTORY of conservative football (both regular season and post season). That’s MartyBall. It’s really no big secret. Anybody who’s ever paid attention to football knows that. That kind of football can sometimes win games for you AND sometimes lose them.

That’s what you get when you hire Marty. The other guy (methodrampage) said that Norv was brought in to win playoff games. Really? Like Norv, prior to being hired in SD, had a great playoff record. Tell you what. I don’t even know, as a HC, WHAT (if any) his playoff record is. YOU look it up and get back to me. I’d be interested to see what Norv’s playoff record as HC is. (probably non-existent or losing. Just my guess here).

Marty was fired cause AJ Smith hated him. His playoff losses helped Smith do the unthinkable (fire a 14-2 coach. Norv (like Wade in Dallas) was brought in cause, deep down, even those guys know they’re lucky to be HC’s and as such get along GREAT with their owners and GMs.

That’s how it is with some front office guys. Jerry Jones couldn’t wait to get Jimmy Johnson out of there (who Jones couldn’t control) and bring in guys like Switzer, Gailey and Campo (who he could control). How’d that work out for Jones? He couldn’t wait for Parcells to leave (who he couldn’t control) to bring in Phillips (who he could). How’d that work out for him?

Even though Shottenheimer was 14-2, a case could be made to replace him with another coach to win the big one. That’s what TB did when they replaced Dungy with Gruden (and it worked). The problem here, is that anyone who knows football and anyone who’s honest will tell you that replacing Marty with Norv, based on Norv’s abilities in the playoffs as HC, is laughable (and surely not the truth).

by GeoMak on Dec 30, 2008 1:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“They could’ve/should’ve won a game that they were probably the underdogs in.”

They were 14-2 and the #1 seed in the conference, how could they possibly be the underdogs? For a guy who’s been studying football for 40 years, you sure miss a lot of details.

“Marty has a LONG HISTORY of conservative football (both regular season and post season). That’s MartyBall.”

Then why go on 4th and 11 instead of kicking the FG? Why throw all 2nd half when you have the lead and the best RB in football? That is not conservative football, that’s MartzBall. Holy hell, are you even reading these posts, or are your replies pre-programmed?

Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 1:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let me help you out with that Sparky. The line is set in Vegas. It’s designed to split the action on the game. Some people will think that a 14-2 team, coached by Shottenheimer (who has a terrible playoff record) and QB’d by young Phillip Rivers will beat a Pats team, coached by SB winning coach Bill Belichick and SB winning QB Tom Brady. Other people will think differently. See. Get my point? The line, essentially, means NOTHING when it come to winning on the field.

Now as to your second point about throwing in the second half. Sit down and try to follow what I’m going to tell you. Jim Mora Sr., in one of his famous pressers said this to the writers around him: “You don’t know. You don’t know. You THINK you know, but you don’t.” Have you ever seen this tape?

What did Mora mean by that? This. He meant that you (writers) don’t watch a MINUTE of game tape.

I’ve been following football and I have NEVER watch a minute of game tape. I’m guessing that you haven’t either. A friend of mine plyed for the Cowboys in the 90’s. Kenny HAS watched game tape. I’ve asked him a few things over the years. But still, virtually NO fans and NO writers have EVER watched game tape.

Maybe, just maybe, Marty saw something in the Pats defense (too many men in the box, a certain alignment) that made him think that the Chargers needed to score by passing and not running. Do you think that’s even possible. With all due respect, I think Marty has forgotten more about football than you, ME and probably everybody else on this board has.

Maybe Marty just wanted to pass the Hell out of the ball to throw off the Pats and shed his conservative image. The only way to REALLY know is to have Marty, or someone like Ron Jaworski (who spends half his life watching game film at NFL films) explain it to people like you and me.

As much as I like to think that I know what goes on in this league (and I know a lot) I’m also SMART ENOUGH to know that without being a coach and without watching hours of game tape, I, like most fans, in the words of Jim Mora Sr. . . . REALLY DON’T KNOW!

by GeoMak on Dec 30, 2008 3:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of it was Cameron

By the end of the season Cameron was pretty much calling all the plays on offense. Fourth down calls and field goals could have been Marty, but I would be pretty sure that the decision to rely on the pass was Cameron’s.

As far as Marty’s firing, the play-off record was part of it, but it was mainly because of the poor relationship between Marty and A.J. Smith. Marty was actually going to be brought back after losing to the Patriots, it wasn’t untill Cameron and Phillips left for HC jobs and Marty demanded to be allowed to choose the new coordinators that he was fired.

by DiegoAsFan on Dec 30, 2008 3:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Smith Hated Marty and couldn’t wait to get rid of him. There’s no way that Cam was calling for so much passing against Marty’s wishes.

As I said above, without watching tape and being on the sidelines it’s really all just speculation as far as us fans go.

I respect what you (DiegoAsFan) are saying and I think that you’d agree with me (as I pretty much agree with you).

If not, let me know. At least you (unlike some people here) make sense in what you say.

by GeoMak on Dec 30, 2008 4:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“The line, essentially, means NOTHING when it come to winning on the field.”

True. Of course, it fails to explain why you were you the one to first bring it up as an excuse for why the Chargers shouldn’t have been expected to win here:

“They could’ve/should’ve won a game that they were probably the underdogs in.”

And again here:

“Losing a game when, if the DB just stayed on the ground, is not my idea of BLOWING A GAME (especially when you were probably the underdog)!”

And how come you fought so hard to maintain your stance that the Pats were favored here:

“If I am wrong, Please, please, PROVE IT TO ME. Don’t just say it, prove it. OK?”

It seems you’ve only come up with this opinion that “the line means NOTHING” since I proved you wrong.

Oh, that’s right, you weren’t wrong, because you only said the Pats were probably favored, not that they actually were. Since you actually seem to believe that, I hope you enjoy these other non-wrong statements:

—The ’85 Bears probably lost at least 5 games.

—That Bear defense was probably a very average, nondescript squad.

—Buddy Ryan probably didn’t know the first thing about discipline.

—Your posts are probably well thought-out and consistent.

Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 4:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re persistant, I’ll give you that much. I brought it up because some people make it sound like The Chargers SHOULD HAVE beaten Belichick and Brady. Nothing, of course (in reality) could be further from the truth.

Blowing a Game. For the LAST TIME, the VERY LAST TIME, it’s subjective. OK. I don’t think the Chargers loss qualifies as “Blowing a Game.” If you or anyone else does, that’s FINE. It’s YOUR OPINION. (Not Mine).

I never “fought hard” to maintain a stance that the Pat’s were favored you STUPID SOB. I suspected they were (and as it turns oput they should have been). OK

I notice that you had no comment about Moraw and game tape. That’s because it’s WAY, WAY beyond you. You (like a few other people here) are complete morons.

This whole thread started when methodrampage claimed that Norv was brought in over Marty to “win playofff games” even though Norv has NEVER WON A PLAYOFF GAME AS A HC. It’s a stupid comment. Norv was brought in cause Smith wanted a coach he could control. PERIOD!

Try to say something intelligent instead of distorting my positions and putting words in my mouth.

Please though, tell me your thoughts on the whole Mora, gametape thing. I would really like to hear your “cough” response.

by GeoMak on Dec 30, 2008 5:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Since I’m intelligent and reasonable, I’m going to ignore your juvenile name-calling — I know you’re just frustrated at being proven wrong. Instead of insulting you right back, I’m going to stay classy, and prove you “factually incorrect” once again (and this time, you don’t have a “probably” to fall back on):

“Try to say something intelligent instead of distorting my positions and putting words in my mouth.”

Okay, I’ll use your own words to prove your ignorance of the details:

“This whole thread started when methodrampage claimed that Norv was brought in over Marty to "win playofff games" even though Norv has NEVER WON A PLAYOFF GAME AS A HC.”

Norv had won won a playoff game before — in 1999 with the Redskins — as you can see here.

Research, it’s a wonderful thing — you should try it sometime.

Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 5:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Big deal. I stated earlier that I didn’t know his playoff record. I assumed it was either nonexistent or a losing record.

The point (and I know that SOME of yopu people have trouble following a point) is that anyone who says that Turner was brought in SPECIFICALLY to win playoff games is an IDIOT. That’s the nicest word I can use. Jimmy Johnson to win playoff games. Absolutely. Bill Parcells. Ditto.

Norv Turner. Please. That’s hysterical.

You either “get” my point or you don’t. Honestly, I could care less.

by GeoMak on Dec 30, 2008 5:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

For someone who doesn’t care, you sure lose your cool and throw around a lot of insults.

Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 5:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Listen, somebody who would say something like Norv Turner had never won a playoff game as a head coach when that is absolutely not true obviously doesn’t know the first thing about football.

Sorry, I just never got any acknowledgement from you for admitting that what I said about Dick Vermiel was stupid.

Because there’s nothing wrong with admitting that you said something that wasn’t right. Like I did. Like you seem to refuse to at all costs.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 6:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I NEVER said he had never won a playoff game. Go back and show me where I said that. You can’t. I said his playoff record was either nonexistent or probably a losing one. I didn’t even take the time to google Norv and look it up. I didn’t care. I knew that if anythin, it wasn’t much.

Stop putting words in peoples mouth, OK.

Please show me MY POST where I said he never won a playoff game.

Norv is a great OC who’s a medicre HC. Nobody in their right mind (player, owner, GM, fan) would say that we need to get Norv in here to get us over the top in the playoffs.

by GeoMak on Dec 30, 2008 6:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“Please show me MY POST where I said he never won a playoff game.”

Here.

And here’s your exact quote:

"This whole thread started when methodrampage claimed that Norv was brought in over Marty to “win playofff games” even though Norv has NEVER WON A PLAYOFF GAME AS A HC."

Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 6:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great Josh. You’re right. I assumed he never won a playoff game cause he’s a terrible HC. But you’re right. I made a mistake. Congratulations.

And I stand by my central point. Nobody in their right mind would hire Norv to win playoff games. Jimmy Johnson or Bill Parcells. But certainly not Norv. I don’t know what his regular season record is but I’d pretty much guess it’s on the losing side of the ledger.

The man is a great OC and not a good HC. Even on of his own players said that publicly today.

by GeoMak on Dec 30, 2008 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And here is where I previously posted your erroneous quote and proved it wrong. I’m surprised you don’t remember, since you replied to it less than an hour ago.

Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 6:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I promised I wouldn't but seriously?
This whole thread started when methodrampage claimed that Norv was brought in over Marty to "win playofff games" even though Norv has NEVER WON A PLAYOFF GAME AS A HC. It’s a stupid comment. Norv was brought in cause Smith wanted a coach he could control. PERIOD!

Marty got fired because he lost that game to New England. You even admitted that if he had won he probably wouldn’t have been fired. Therefore, it’s simple logic to conclude that he got fired because he didn’t win. Marty’s deteriorating relationship with Smith didn’t help things but ultimately Marty was fired because he lost that playoff game.

Look GM’s don’t make a living firing HC that take their teams 14-2 through the regular season and then hire a HC for the sole purpose that he can control them. Marty got fired because he lost in his first playoff game, if you fire a coach because he loses in the playoffs you don’t hire another coach that you’d expect the same fate from. Norv took over, won two playoff games last year(advancing further than Marty’s 14-2 team a year previously).

But I digress, the real reason this thread got started was because someone had mentioned that Norv was going to get fired no matter what this year and I simple expressed my opinion that it seems foolish to fire a coach that went 14-2 and lost in the playoffs and then fire a coach that’s actually been winning with your team in the playoffs.

Try to say something intelligent instead of distorting my positions and putting words in my mouth.

It’s not us that distorts your positions, it’s you and what to except when you speak some ambiguously?

by methodrampage on Dec 31, 2008 7:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

God. You have NO CONCEPT of reality. Here is the REALITY. Smith, the GM, hated Marty’s GUTS!

Smith wanted his own coach, one more controllable for Smith than Marty.

If, If Marty had WON that playofff game,it would have been virtually IMPOSSIBLE for Smith to “sell it” to the buying publc, you know, the one’s that buy all the tickets and beer.

It would have been almost IMPOSSIBLE to tell the SD fan base that we’re “firing a 14-2 coach who won a playoff game.”

When Marty lost, however, that gave Smith the “Opening” he needed. He could simply tell the fan base that, while Marty is an excellent coach (14-2) we need to change directions to get us a coach to take us to the next level.

All he had to do, then, was trot out Shottenheimer’s playoff record for proof.

Your problem, my little friend, is that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Marty was fired because SMITH WANTED HIM OUT. Tell me, oh genius one, when a 14-2 coach has EVER been fired in the NFL!

If you’re going to fire one of the winningest coaches in NFL history, based on his playoff failures, that’s acceptable. Bring in Norv Turner to replace him, based on Norv’s ONE playoff win, is BULLS**T!

The problem for you is that you’re not NEARLY intelligent enough to FIGURE THAT OUT!

by GeoMak on Jan 2, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

This is like talking to a 3 year old.

Here’s the deal. We’d both agree that Smith’s and Marty’s relationshop was on the rocks. However that wasn’t enough to fire Marty because he went 14-2 in the regular season. Win or lose [that Patriot playoff game] Smith wanted Marty gone. By your own admission,

It would have been almost IMPOSSIBLE to tell the SD fan base that we’re "firing a 14-2 coach who won a playoff game."

Now based on what you’ve said yourself, had Marty won that game he would not have been fired. Therefore, because he blew (and the Chargers did blow the game, anyone who thinks otherwise is in the vast minority) the game and lost he got fired. Without Marty losing that game Smith couldn’t of had him fired. Without Smith’s and Marty’s detoriating relationship Marty probably wouldn’t have been fired.

Basically both, Marty losing that game to Patriots and falling out of favor with Smith, led to his firing.

You can argue if Norv was brought in to win playoff games or not but he obviously wasn’t brought in to lose them.

by methodrampage on Jan 2, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

3 Year Old?

This coming from someone who criticized McMahon and yet . . . HAD NEVER SEEN HIM PLAY!

You kill me. You really do.

Now, to correct your “Mistakes” from your most recent post:

“We’d both agree that Smith and Marty’s relationship was on the rocks”

Their “relationship” was so far past “on the rocks” that it’s not even funny, DUDE. They past “on the rocks” YEARS earlier!

Because “Marty blew.” OMG. Wayyyyyyy too Stupid, son. You do realize, that PLAYERS, play and coaches coach, don’t you.

That’s like saying it was Singleatry’s fault, in St. Louis, that Hill threw 3 Interceptions and that Vernon Davis FUMBLED the ball in the red zone!

Right. That was all Sing’s fault. Nevermind the players. Oh God, you KILL me! You really do. You’re right. Every loss was ALL Marty’s fault (LOL).

No,you’re right, Norv wasn’t brought in to LOSE playoff games. What an IDIOTIC statement. Consider the source, I guess.

P.S. If you’re gonna criticize a player (like McMahon) it might help if you had actually WATCHED HIM PLAY, instead of going by “word-of-mouth” and stats.

God, what an I***T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW: The “official” version for Norv’s hiring was the part about him “being brought in to win the playoff games.”

The "unofficial (and truthful) version was the one I laid out.

You’re just too ignorant to understand the difference!

by GeoMak on Jan 2, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mcmahon still stinks!!!

Saying Mcmahon was great is as bad as saying Montana wasn’t any good. The END

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Jan 2, 2009 6:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you ever see either of them play?

by GeoMak on Jan 2, 2009 7:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have...

and I can’t say I would want to put Jim’s name with Joe Cool in the same sentence. Jim was good for that one SB win. Sure, the Bears went to the playoffs with him, but I think that was largely due to the defense and Walter.

Even if he did play with the San Diego Chargers, LA Rams or LA Raiders(all warm weather teams), I don’t think he would have brought home SB wins there.

"The voice of the intellect is a soft one, but it does not rest until it has gained a hearing"

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Jan 3, 2009 1:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rather...

I did.

"The voice of the intellect is a soft one, but it does not rest until it has gained a hearing"

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Jan 3, 2009 1:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess it’s funny then. Ditka himself said that thee one key ingredient in their SB run (over himself, the defense and Payton) was McMahon. That came fron Ditka himself. That’s not taking anything away from the other components at all. they were all excellent. it’s just making a case for having a top-flight QB under center.

McMahon, was the spiritual leader of the team. The entire offense rallied around Jim. He hung out with the lineman during the week. That quality it sorely underrated. That said, his ability to read defenses and his passing skills were second to none.

That’s why Steve Young himself is on record as saying (from their BYU days) “Everything I learned about playing QB I learned from watching Jim McMahon.”

One only has to have watched the “Minnesota Miracle” in 85 to see the superlative McMahon in action.

Those who haven’t seen that game, along with most of his other Bear games, really (with all due respect) are far, far less qualified to comment accurately than people like Mike Ditka and Steve Young (among many many other players and coaches) along with people such as myself, who watched his entire career unfold.

by GeoMak on Jan 3, 2009 8:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In this case...

the pupil became/was better than the teacher. There is no doubt McMahon was good. If he was “that good” then what happened to him?

Ditka, as good as a man he is, traded his entire Saints lineup to get Ricky Williams.

I love Ditka for being an advocate for past NFL’ers. Just wanted to say that to prevent you from thinking I dislike him. And, I don’t dislike McMahon, either. Because he is responsible for Young’s greatness.

"The voice of the intellect is a soft one, but it does not rest until it has gained a hearing"

by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Jan 3, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Recently, Young has started talking about how much he learned from Joe Montana, too, in terms of playing the intricasies of playing the NFL game. I don’t remember hearing either of them talk about the other until just these last two or so years.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jan 3, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve got Young, in an ESPN SprotsCentury program on Jim McMahon talking a lot about McMahon. Young was one of the featured speakers as Young’ (whose great great great grandfather WAS Brigham Young) was together there at BYU with Jim. The hourlong show starts at early childhood and goes forward. His college career at BYU and Bears career take up the most time of the program.

One of his direct quotes was the one mentioned above. I have this on a homemade DVD. I’d be happy to copy it and send one to you or anyone else who wants one.

by GeoMak on Jan 3, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sure what you mean by “what happened to him.” While he had a long career, he burned out (healthwise) rather quickly (after 5/6 years).

It was a double edge sword with JIm. He threw his body around with abandon. He truly played with a “linebackers” mentality. He didn’t slide (til much, much later in his career). As Ditka said “I told him to slide but it didn’t matter. He never listened to me anyway.”

Former SMU, Colts and Pats HC Ron Meyer had this to say about McMahons “reckless abandon” style of play: “Is it smart? Probably not. Does it win games? You bet it does.”

Meyer was the SMU HC who was torched by McMahon in the 1980 Holiday Bowl, one of the greatest comebacks in college bowl history. BYU scored three touchdowns with four minutes to play to win the game (after trailing by 20 points).

Late in that game McMahon defied HC LaVell Edwards (who sent the punting unit on) by ordering the punting unit off on a fourth down play.

The sad part of all of this is this (for those that really love the game), if McMahon had gone to your team and if you had watched how him and his career unfolded, there’s no doubt that you’d be “singing his praises” too. The reality is that he was NEVER popular with the media (cause he didn’t kiss their A**) and as such most of what people know about him, from a distance, is all the B.S. that went with the package (the Punky QB stuff).

His superlative play as an NFL QB is common knowledge to his teammates (like Singletary) and his coaches and other peers, as well as to many of the people like myself who watched him play.

by GeoMak on Jan 3, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mcmahon is not great

Thats the main point here. He is not great. Do a poll with anyone besides a bear fans and McMahon won’t even be in their top 10.

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Jan 5, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You bore me

It’s hard to do but you’ve succeeded. Seriously, I start reading your pointless, ambigous, redundant comments and all I can hear is Charlie Brown’s teacher. You keep stating the obvious, and when you venture from the obvious you’re usually completely wrong but you’re too dilluted in your wanna-be 40 years of NFL watching expect knowledge to realize it.

by methodrampage on Dec 30, 2008 1:28 PM PST up