Climb in the wayback machine...
by spenczar on Dec 7, 2008 7:36 PM PST
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PrintEDITOR'S NOTE 7:37PM: Perfect timing on this FanPost from spenczar. I'll admit that I voted for the first option.
Sometimes it's fun to take a look at the early predictions we made. For instance, look at this poll from the preseason:
via http://www.ninersnation.com/2008/8/22/599312/49ers-officially-name-j-t
I'd like to toot my own horn a little for being one of those lonely 20 voters in favor of Shaun Hill. Today, I think almost everyone would agree we'd be better off. Or does anyone disagree? Was JTO the way to go from the beginning?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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I was a Smith voter...
I still believe that Smith would have been a good choice. Of course he got hurt so in the end it doesn’t matter. I have a feeling though that if Alex Smith went in, in the second half of the season, Martz would still have been making him do the 7 step drops and the sacks would still be high (Because he is more of a physical specimen than Hill Martz would throw down the field more). But I don’t care because I’m just glad we have a COMPETENT QB! Congratulations Shaun Hill on doing what J.T. O’Sullivan couldn’t, getting the chance to start and not pissing all over it.
Next year will be our year! (copyright 2003*, been used each of last five years)
by StrictlyFootball on Dec 7, 2008 8:02 PM PST reply actions
Speaking of retrospect:
I enjoyed reading our NYT stuff from the Giants game. Some highlightsL
While the 49ers hold the same record as a year ago, they are clearly an improved team. In large part, they can thank Mike Martz for the much-improved offense, but they can also thank him for the 2-4 record. If Martz can just tighten up the offensive game plan and hand the ball off to Frank Gore a little more often, this team could make a run at .500. This team has the weapons to hang with the Giants. If they play like they’ve done the last two weeks they’ll get killed. If they make the proper adjustments, an upset is possible. I continue to hold my breath… 49ers, 24-23.
And:
For good reason, many fans are openly pessimistic about this week’s matchup with the Giants, while others are simply outspoken about their lack of optimism. The Giants’ defensive line is not what it was last year, but it is still more than capable. Likewise, the 49ers’ offensive line is not what it was last year, but it is still more than, say, cheesecloth. This pattern becomes more glaring with each positional matchup. Giants, capable. 49ers, cheesecloth. But Mike Nolan likes cheesecloth and, aye, therein lies the rub. Still, we all go a little crazy sometimes. And with Frank Gore and Patrick Willis, I almost can’t blame me. 49ers, 30-27.
.
Speaking of which, here’s the link for the new ones we just did: http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/06/100-words-jets-8-4-at-niners-4-8/
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
I was always skeptical of Hill, and I uphold that that was always the right opinion to have of him. Even now, to some extent, it still is. He is by far the better option than O’Sullivan, though. There was a time even that was rightfully in question, but at this point it couldn’t possibly be more clear.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
how do I figure out
what I voted for, I can’t remember. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t “free shaun hill”
Still defending Rich Aurilia, and the Niners' classic unis
I've been a Hill fan since his first regular season appearance...
But early in the year, I don’t think he was really an option. He suffered from dead arm in camp, if you remember, and really struggled to get a grasp on the new offense in his very limited time before that.
Going into week 1, JTO clearly knew the playbook better than anyone else on the roster, and he had put in a few pretty good performances early on. I don’t think anyone was anointing him the starter for the entirety of the 2008 season (I sure as hell wasn’t), but he had the edge for the first couple games.
That being said, I had hoped that it would only be a matter of time before Shaun Hill took, or was handed, the reigns.
I’m the resident Shaun Hill supporter here. Hell, I’ve posted way too many comments and fanposts that say, basically, “Just TurnOvers throws games away – start Shaun Hill. Thanks”.
Not to brag or anything.
I'm not gonna throw the challenge flag...
But I am going to mouth off and gesture wildly from the sidelines, and then make a thinly veiled comment in the postgame press conference about how I’m pretty sure I deserve that distinction. Like, since that Bengals game last season. And I have the emotional scars from the vocal majority to prove it.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
Hey now,
No hostility necessary – we can both be co-founders of the Official Shaun Hill Should Be Starting QuarterBack For The San Francisco Forty-Niners Fan Club (OSHSBSQBFTSFFNFC)
Awesome
I’m getting the T-Shirts printed.
OSHSBSQBFTSFFNFC-er for life!
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
I'd be down for one of those
Just the acronym!
Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!
by David Fucillo on Dec 8, 2008 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
Just got it tatooed on my chest..
… twice (it wrapped all the way around my body)
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Dec 9, 2008 9:28 AM PST up reply actions
I didn't vote because I don't recall being here BUT
I’m very happy we started with J.T.O. Because had Shaun Hill started, we might have a few more wins, but Mike Nolan might still be our head coach. Our ceiling with Mike Nolan was so low, even with wins from Shaun Hill I think it will be vastly increased next season with Singletary and Hill. Nolan might still be around and that means settling for mediocrity and no spark.
Good Point...
Know for some cliches…
Everything happens for a reason,
Que Sera, Sera – Whatever will be, will be,
When one door shuts another one opens,
JTO is under the Hill (I know it’s bad)
Next year will be our year! (copyright 2003*, been used each of last five years)
by StrictlyFootball on Dec 7, 2008 10:03 PM PST up reply actions
Great Point
I never thought about the fact that having Hill from the start may have meant Rollin’ With Nolan.
And Lord knows nobody needs any of… that.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
Never been here
but I did see Shaun Hill play really well last year down the stretch. I was surprised he didn’t get the nod this year. I think he was at a disadvantage the whole way thru training camp because JT was brought in by Martz and Nolan was going with whatever Martz wanted – which still got him fired. Shaun Hill reminds me of Chad Pennington a little bit, he doesn’t have a particularly amazing arm. He doesn’t really need one when he has smart accurate throws.
Just stopping by to say I was on the Shaun Hill bandwagon at the end of last year, befuddled by JT starting, but happy that he finally got the spot he deserved.
Winner of All Movie Quote Challenges
Pennington
I think that’s an excellent comp.
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Dec 8, 2008 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
Time travel is troublesome
Everyone, including Hill, said that Hill was slow at picking up the Martz offense.
So suppose that Hill started at the beginning of the season and did terribly. Would he already be consigned to the bench?
Or suppose he did better than JTO in our parallel universe and won a game or two that O’Sullivan lost. Maybe the Yorks don’t pull the trigger and fire Nolan. And maybe at the end of the year Nolan is fired and Singletary goes somewhere else.
I wasn’t on the Hill bandwagon last year or this year early on. Late last year the games the Niners won were against teams that had either thrown in the towel or were protecting first-stringers for the playoffs. As I recall, at least one of Hill’s wins wasn’t televised so I didn’t even see his pocket presence, and his coolness under pressure is his most impressive attribute.
In training camp I presumed the coaches were correct in putting Hill in third place. They were wrong, apparently.
I can honestly say that Shaun Hill has demonstrated the intangibles that make for a good quarterback, and those intangibles are showing up on the field and in the results. I’m glad that he’s the starter and I think the team should be planning on him starting for the next few years. Resign Smith and/or JTO for backups. No problem if the money is right. I suspect that if Martz is gone so is JTO. Or maybe the Niners should draft someone to sit and learn.
But keep Hill as quarterback.
by Bob In Beaverton on Dec 8, 2008 7:24 AM PST reply actions
Training camp.
I think the thing that makes Hill difficult to gauge in practice and, thus, training camp, are those “intangibles.” Coaches don’t get to see his “game management” or “never say die” attitude in practice. The only thing coaches get to see in the offseason is how well he’s picking up the offense. So as you pointed out Bob, it sort of makes sense that Hill was third “best” during training camp, but then it doesn’t.
He’s shown a whole lot more (in terms of playing demeanor) than O’Sullivan or Smith have shown in their time leading the offense. It’s an unfortunate situation for Hill that those traits aren’t showcased during training camp, but it’s also fortunate for him to have had the opportunity to learn the offense more without taking the pounding the O’Sullivan did early on in the year.
He's Not The Messiah
I don’t think anyone can look at this situation and say it’s the contribution of any one “genius”. I’d like to think we’re very similar to a hardworking team like the Titans or the Giants with just fewer playmakers and less chemistry, both of which can be remedied by next season.
Hill without Singletary would have been mediocre, at best. I remember loving how the guys seemed to make (or want to make) plays for Hill where they wouldn’t for Smith or Dilfer last season, and thinking the kid had something that garnered respect in the locker room. Now he has a coach that does the same, and you can plainly see the difference it’s made.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
Hill without Singletary would have been mediocre, at best. I remember loving how the guys seemed to make (or want to make) plays for Hill where they wouldn’t for Smith or Dilfer last season, and thinking the kid had something that garnered respect in the locker room. Now he has a coach that does the same, and you can plainly see the difference it’s made.
I object to so many ideas in this paragraph. I think the idea of guys making plays for Hill that they didn’t or wouldn’t for the others is more of a talking point than something that actually exists. If plays were being made for Hill that weren’t being made for other players, maybe there is a football reason. Like, Hill didn’t overthrow x, so x caught the ball. Or, Hill had great protection when y didn’t, so z play was able to develop. Things didn’t just magic into happening because there was a switch. I firmly believe that the same is true for guys who are “playing harder” for Singletary. I don’t believe for a second that he has them playing harder. They are paid to play hard. They live to play hard. What I believe is that he has them playing better, and that there are tangible things you point to that explain why.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 8, 2008 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
Or, Hill had great protection when y didn’t, so z play was able to develop.
That example is a little fallacious. I didn’t read it over before I posted. I hope you can weed through the fallacy to see what I actually meant.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 8, 2008 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe there are tangibles
But if you remember, Alex Smith had serious locker room issues before his season ending injury (or the revelation of, or whatever), and your comments more accurately describe Trent’s stint as QB, where he may have had the locker room respect but proceeded to lose it on the field. When x consistently overthrows WR y, y will put less effort into running routes and downfield blocking, thereby completely [sitedecorum]ing play z.
I mean, you lived through it too, do you seriously not remember the night and day difference of the performance of the supporting cast while Hill was under center? The O-Line held up, the receivers could suddenly recognize the oblong object as something catchable…
And as far as being paid to play hard, I tend to theoretically agree with you. Then I look at the tangible difference between Coach Sing (no experience, defensive minded) and his logical attributes and Nolan and conclude that there is more than the logic of football at work, even in the highly professional and allegedly emotionally void NFL environment. There is a tangible value to intangible factors, such as heart, inspiration and motivation.
Any management class worth the price of its textbooks will teach you that paying your employees gives you the right to expect performance, but in no way guarantees that they will be motivated to perform to those expectations.
Please note I’m not trying to “debunk the myth” that is logical football, but i remember these same arguments when I was trying to explore what a Denny Green or Mike Singletary coached 9er team would look like last season, about how motivation has no place in the modern NFL. While it’s a far cry from completely untrue, I think we would all do well to give those intangibles a little more respect when determining how these teams will do once all the business side gives way to looking your opponent right in the face across the line of scrimmage.
At the very least, can we agree that game day will always be some inconsistent combination of what’s on paper vs what the alignment of the moon and jupiter will be that day and other intangibles?
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
When x consistently overthrows WR y, y will put less effort into running routes and downfield blocking, thereby completely [sitedecorum]ing play z.
But that’s what I don’t buy. It’s exactly what I was saying I don’t buy. Not for a second. Not not on any significant scale. Of course there are players who do take plays off when they’re not feeling like it matters. Randy Moss is the extreme example of that. But I think that most of the league, and especially guys who are playing specifically for their jobs and their livelihood (which describes pretty much every player who isn’t recognized as a star), recognize that they need to be professionals about doing what it takes to keep or win that job, and that means not taking plays off. I think it’s easy to be blinded by the Randy Mosses of the league and forget that 90+% of the players in the league don’t necessarily have the job security to dick around with playing harder for one guy than they did for the last. That’s my honest belief. These guys know how hard it is to be a player in the NFL, much less to be a starter, and they know how easily that can be lost, either because of lacking performance or, god forbid, injury. And I can’t imagine that personal feelings about your QB have some sort of personal precedent against a player’s own self-interest in staying on the starting 11 or in the league itself.
I mean, you lived through it too, do you seriously not remember the night and day difference of the performance of the supporting cast while Hill was under center? The O-Line held up, the receivers could suddenly recognize the oblong object as something catchable…
I did live through it, too. I remember the night and day difference of the soft defenses making it easy for the o-Line to hold up. I remember the night and day difference of Shaun Hill having time to throw to receivers who were playing under soft coverage, and those receivers suddenly having room to make the catches. That’s what I remember. As clear as night and day. These guys didn’t just suddenly turn it on because they like Shaun Hill. They have themselves to play for more than anybody else.
And as far as being paid to play hard, I tend to theoretically agree with you. Then I look at the tangible difference between Coach Sing (no experience, defensive minded) and his logical attributes and Nolan and conclude that there is more than the logic of football at work, even in the highly professional and allegedly emotionally void NFL environment. There is a tangible value to intangible factors, such as heart, inspiration and motivation.
And I look at the job that Singletary is doing and realize that he’s implemented a system a performance accountability, that’s he’s visibly taking control of game situations that Nolan left to the booth or to Martz, that he’s drastically improved his in-game management, that the schemes and the technical execution are sharper than they were, which all gives the appearance of guys playing with more energy, more heart, more motivation when, in my eyes, they’re actually just playing better. There is a laundry list of coaching tangibles that Singletary is visibly doing better than Nolan. And THAT translates faster, more consistently, more completely, and more visibly than any level of “playing hard” ever would.
Now, I’m not trying to say that there isn’t some aspect of effort at play here, but I get a little weary of people saying such broad, intangible things as though they were the whole story, or most of the story, when if you just looked you would see that everywhere you see a guy who is “motivated” these days there’s actually something going on that is more significant him being pumped that is contributing to the success.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 8, 2008 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
I See Your Point
And I can actually agree, when you explain it that way. We can just chalk my comments up to not knowing the game as thoroughly as you do, so just like you said, what appears to me being 11 guys working harder and not giving up on plays when there appears to only be a couple of visible changes, there are a multitude of less obvious changes strategically that escape the casual fan (like me). So instead of citing better game management, I’ll cite “inspiration”.
I gotta tell you though, I was on a hell of a high there for a minute. I was ready for the inspirational football movie chronicling the amazing underdog story of the 2008-2009 49ers and their motivational leader taking on the big corporate NFL.
49er 'til I die! (if they don't kill me first)
Personally, I think that Singletary is a much better story my way. I think the merits of being a good coach who gets his team to improve through good coaching speak much greater volumes for his chances to stick around in that capacity than the alternative.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 8, 2008 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
Everyone, including Hill, said that Hill was slow at picking up the Martz offense.
Logic! Finally.
A little ridiculous to assume that Hill, who is clearly the best choice now, was the best choice at the beginning of the year.
A good offensive coordinator will adjust his offense to the QBs.
Mike Martz makes the QBs adjust to the offense and, if they fail, blame it on the QB.
You can't...
… adjust the system to a QB who is showing very little ability to learn the system. In order to adjust, you have to be comfortable. Shaun Hill, I’m pretty sure, was not comfortable, yet.
It's also false...
… to think that the QB doesn’t control what happens when a play is called. You can see it in most of the plays Martz calls (even when O’Sullivan was at the helm). There are almost ALWAYS multiple options, deep, intermediate, or short. One of the big reasons why the offense failed early on wasn’t because Martz wasn’t preparing his QB properly. That big problem was the fact the O’Sullivan REFUSED to settle for the higher percentage results. Hill has no problem with that.
We’ve seen Hill go 25+ yards on passes when the WR and the secondary warrant that kind of action. That pass yesterday to Walker that was called back because of a hold by Staley was as nice a pass as you can throw. Similarly, there was a comeback route that Bryant Johnson ran early in the third (I think) where Hill had plenty of zip on the ball).
I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that Martz’ plays generally give the QB tons of options. It is primarily up to the QB to take what the defense gives him. O’Sullivan sucked at that. Hill is showing that he’s pretty darn good at it.
You may be right. I guess I’ve heard different things about Martz – that the QB has to run the actual play and cannot execute other options and is encouraged not to adjust.
It really seemed like that’s what O’Sullivan did. Yes, obviously there were other receivers there, but it seemed that he never adjusted to options. Shaun Hill does and it doesn’t seem like Martz likes it
Perhaps I’m just too skeptical of Martz though.
Just adding things...
Shaun Hill mentioned to Maiocco or Barrows recently that the system doesn’t have audibles. That can kind of be interpreted as Martz forcing a play on his QB, but when Hill further explained, there are options that SHOULD counter anything the defense is throwing at you (assuming your receivers/backs are executing the play as well as they could).
O’Sullivan has a similar “never say die” attitude that Hill has. The difference between the two is that O’Sullivan never let an OPTION die, while Hill tries to never let the play die. One results in better results but also includes higher risks. The other results in marginal gains all the while minimizing mistakes and losses.
I think Hill runs the offense kind of the way I envision Smith to have run it (once he got an opportunity to learn the system like the back of his hand). I don’t know who would have been better (and that thought may be moot), but bottom line is that Hill seems to be running the offense the way Martz envisions it.
I think this is a great point...
Shaun Hill would have been like a deer in front of headlights that is the Martz offense… kinda like JTO was to defensive players after him. I think if the niners would have struggled with Shaun from the beginning we have been stuck with JTO to lead us to a disappointing season this year… and would have gotten rid of Nolan and lost confidence in Singletary being his successor. That’s why things happen for a reason. We could have been stuck with Martz as a HC next year…
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Hill Hater
I have always been a Hill hater, so I’ll eat some more crow. I’ve been eating a lot of crow this year, I’m getting used to the taste.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
You should really try...
… to make gravy with the drippings!
I just want to win!
Thats the way i voted. If it wasn’t an option then I would’ve voted Hill. I was one of the ones at the Minnesota game last year chanting Hills name while Dilcrap was out there losing his mind and head. I don’t wish anyone to get hurt but we should thank Dilfer for getting his head knocked off in that game because thats when Hill got his chance.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
I voted for Smith...
cos I believed that, of the 3 QB’s, prior to the season starting he was the best of them and, as we had invested heavily in him we couldn’t just throw him away so to speak.Of course, once the injury hit I believe we should have gone straight to Hill.
I think also, and you guys can tell I’m wrong here being closer to the action, but I believe that Hill wasn’t given a fair chance during practice and pre-season to prove himself then.
Next year I would cut JTO, re-work Smith’s contract and keep him as a back-up – thus giving him time to learn the offense properly – and draft a QB in lower rounds as our guy for the future.
by Ninerfromacrossthepond on Dec 8, 2008 6:48 PM PST reply actions
I agree...
I voted for Smith as well and feel bad for him since he has been playing for 4 different OCs, a clueless O-Line and no WRs
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Hmmm
Same can be said for Shaun Hill yet he is thriving better than ASmith.
Second to None!
by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 13, 2008 6:50 PM PST up reply actions
Shaun Hill was never exactly thrust into any sort of impossible starting job. Especially at such a young age. That’s kind of an important difference.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 14, 2008 9:09 PM PST up reply actions
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