Mike Singletary and Mike Martz...and maybe Norv Turner?
Now that the Cardinals have clinched the division and the 49ers are mathematically eliminated for all playoff contention, it becomes much easier to focus on the future. Although I realized there was very little chance of winning the division before this week, I still held out a faint hope and I think that kept me from completely committing to the future. That is no longer an issue.
Lately we've seen FanPosts about the QB position in 2009, some early looks at the 2009 draft, the QB position in 2009, general needs going into the offseason and of course, let's not forget the QB position in 2009.
However, one area where I've noticed plenty of comments, but nothing concrete brought together, is whither the offensive coordinator position in 2009 and beyond. First off, let's assume for the sake of this argument that Mike Singletary is hired as the head coach for 2009 (and beyond). If we change that variable, it makes this all moot. If they hired a Holmgren or Schottenheimer or Cowher, I couldn't even begin to guess who would be the offensive coordinator. So, for now, we'll assume Mike Singletary is returning as head coach in 2009.
Norv Turner
The question then becomes who will be his OC in 2009? In the Formula for Success thread there was some discussion about bringing Norv Turner back if he were fired in San Diego and Mike Martz bolted after this season. There is certainly some logic in that idea. The 49ers had some success when Norv Turner was the offensive coordinator. A decent chunk of the offense was around at that point and so it wouldn't be the same as having a sixth offensive coordinator in as many seasons.
Mike Martz
The second option would be retaining Mike Martz, if he even wanted to stick around. If Martz was interested in sticking around for a second year, I'd actually be supportive of that. I like the idea of the conflicting personalities. Obviously I don't want to see a head coach and offensive coordinator that can't get along. That would do nobody any good. However, it seems like Mike Singletary has had some kind of influence on the offense. I really don't know what it is, but something's different. It's entirely possible the change is due to Shaun Hill. Hill lacks some of the physical tools of J.T. O'Sullivan, so maybe it's forced a more conservative brand of the Martz offense. Anybody else think that?
Nonetheless, I think the new version of Mike and Mike could actually make for a potentially potent coaching duo. This Jets game was a great example of what is possible. You get a pound it out running attack that sets up the play action specifically, and the pass generally. When he's been successful this year, Shaun Hill has not had to go deep and yet it's not simple game management. He has to make plays, but these plays have been brought within his skill set. And I think that can be considered due in part to the Mikes together.
It's funny that there's this distinction between Martz and Turner. Although their offenses seem different, they're both disciples of the Air Coryell system. On the wikipedia page, there's an interesting quote from Martz:
"Don is the father of the modern passing game. People talk about the 'West Coast' offense, but Don started the 'West Coast' decades ago and kept updating it. You look around the NFL now, and so many teams are running a version of the Coryell offense. Coaches have added their own touches, but it's still Coryell's offense. He has disciples all over the league. He changed the game."
The third option is some un-named party that we don't know of yet. Or maybe one of you has a particular guy in mind? The question I pose is who WILL BE the 49ers offensive coordinator in 2009. It's not who do you want to be the OC, but rather who you think will actually end up with the position. If you think it's neither Martz nor Turner, I'd be curious to hear who you have in mind. And if you don't know somebody, but just think it won't be either of them, that's certainly fine as well.
EDITOR'S NOTE: I wrote this up last night and scheduled the post for this morning. In the meantime, Maiocco had a blog post as well about Martz.
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ahhhhhhh
Lately we’ve seen FanPosts about the QB position in 2009, some early looks at the 2009 draft, the QB position in 2009, general needs going into the offseason and of course, let’s not forget the QB position in 2009.
I see what you did there…
I think Martz will see some progress with this team that can be attributed to his impact on the offense. That, and the fact that he turned a 4-12 team into, potentially, an 8-8 team, while his old team might go winless, should appease his ego for at least one more season.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Dec 9, 2008 9:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
It's a difficult position to be in.
If Singletary IS named the permanent head coach, the long-term continuity of the offense has to become his top priority. The big problem the 49ers have had has little to do with WHO was the offensive coordinator, but rather, how long said coordinator was here.
Martz is finally showing success, so it definitely makes SOME sense to keep him around. However, if he has success again next year, it’s very likely that he’d bolt off to become a head coach again. That does NOT help the continuity of the offense because no one can run the offense remotely close to how Martz runs it.
Turner would also make SOME sense to keep around. The questions I would have (if I were McCloughan and management) for Norv would be related to his career goals for the next handful of years. If he still feels like he wants to be a head coach (which is indeed possible), then the 49ers may actually be better off bringing in someone else.
Who is that someone else? I’m not entirely sure. For the long-term, though, Singletary and McCloughan would have to scour the league’s offensive assistants (QB coaches, maybe?) to find someone who may have playcalling ability. That person would basically have to work his way into being considered for a head coach job, therefore providing at least 3 years or so of continuity (hopefully).
Of the three options, the last one is the one most likely to yield continuous success. It is also the most risky one, because the 49ers could just end up with another Hostler situation. If Norv still wants to be a head coach, I would much rather have Martz for one year than Norv for one or two (tops). That’s just me though.
I guess this was a fairly convoluted answer to a question that really had only three choices. It’s just difficult to gauge what the team should/would do without knowing the future plans of Martz, Norv, and mystery coordinator X.
by sfgfan on Dec 9, 2008 9:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Future isn't in the NFL
I think the best option for Mike Singletary would be to set up a fall back plan. I think he should either keep Martz as long as he wants to be here (two more years top) or grab Turner (Who I think would be two – three years). But what he should do is grab an O-Coordinator/Head Coach from college and set him up as the QB coach who will sit behind for a few years then take over. This would keep some continuity but it will also definitely mean we would have an O-Cordinator for at least 3 years (If he’s damn good).
Some ideas on who they should grab:
- Chris Peterson (My personal Favorite) – Boise St. Head Coach: He was a QB coach/ then an O. Coordinator for 6 years and now is the head coach but still calling some plays. Offer him 1,000,000 (which is 150,000 more then he makes now) and I believe he would come.
- Greg Davis – Texas O. Coordinator: Has ten years experience calling plays, has worked with a verity of QB’s and has helped make them huge college stars. Has also been called an offensive genius by M. Holmgren.
- Kevin Wilson – Oklahoma Sooners O. Coordinator: Has experience and is the man who has called the plays for the highest scoring team in college football history.
I would love to hear others…
Next year will be our year! (copyright 2003*, been used each of last five years)
by StrictlyFootball on Dec 9, 2008 10:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Peterson
Peterson supposedly was already offered the Mississippi St job but decided not to take it (or something like that). If I’m a college head coach with decent leverage (as he has at Boise St), why not move into a big name program head coaching job where you’ll make more than you would as an OC? I suppose if he wanted to eventually be an NFL coach he could go be an OC or go make a ton of money as a big program coach and then go and fail in the NFL like college coaches tend to do.
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by Fooch on Dec 9, 2008 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gailey
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, CHAN GAILEY. The man is making Thigpen look decent, and I have never heard of that guy before this year. Gailey also turned out guys like Jay Fiedler, Neal O’donnel, Mike Tomzak, and Kordell Stewart into good qbs, just think of what he can do with Hill and a drafted qb. In addition, Gailey likes to produce running backs (see Lamar Smith, Bam Morris, Barry Foster, and Peagram). Gailey offenses are successful and centered around the run with a strong passing game that generates from it. He would help develop the future qb and make Gore look like the beast he is (can you say 1600 yds next year). Now I know that KC is bad this year and he will probably be fired, mostly as a scape goat for Herm Edwards. Whatever, hire Gailey as offensive coordinator and then Sing can instruct him to run a power offense, like the ones he already has run. Draft Chase Danials in the 4th or Graham Harrell and give them two years to learn and we could have a great future for this franchise.
by Gailikk on Dec 9, 2008 10:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Can Edwards...
… even be scapegoated for? I think it’s very possible that Edwards gets the axe. I guess that would also mean Gailey gets it too (unless the Cheifs promote him), so the end result is the same.
by sfgfan on Dec 9, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you want to go back to the WCO
Tom Rathman.
by Grumpy Guy on Dec 9, 2008 2:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Fooch
that the off-setting powers, if you will, is a good and healthy balance for our offense. Coach Sing is keeping Martz in check and making us a power running team.
However, when we needed to make a throw and pick up a clutch first down last game, the genius of Martz was in full effect. Hill made throw after throw on third downs to move the chains, due mostly to the great routes and schemes of Martz.. Another factor for the success of the offense with Hill is the outstanding play of the line. JTO was given no protection and the offense struggled.
Back to Mike and Mike though…we aren’t doing the crazy things that former Martz offenses have been prone to do (especially with JTO), and that is due mostly to Coach Sing’s influences.
when will the Kenny Thomas Reign of Terror end?!!??
by diehardkingsfan5 on Dec 9, 2008 4:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Seconded
I hope they keep Martz as OC if Singletary gets the HC job.It will provide some much needed continuity to the offensive system which they haven’t had in the last 5yrs and, I think, will lead to an improvement in their performance for next season.
I would not go back to Norv Turner as OC, to me he is just too conservative a coach – as he has shown many a time this year in San Diego to their cost – and I don’t think the niners need this with the level they are currently at.
by Ninerfromacrossthepond on Dec 9, 2008 7:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MARTZ
Best case scenario is that the Niners keep Singletary as HC and Martz as OC. I was around the Bears during the Ditka/Ryan "coaching relationship."
It was often said that the Bear practices during that time were more intense than game day and there’s no doubt that the "friction" between Offense (Ditka) and Defense (Ryan) made BOTH units better. Singletary was obviously right in the middle of that mix and I think that he’d have no problem making it work.
From an X’s & O’s standpoint there have only been two REAL geniuses in the NFL in the last Quarter Century: Bill Walsh on Offense & Buddy Ryan on Defense.
Not only was Singletary a HOF player but he was coached by two GREAT coaches in Ryan & Ditka. Mike has learned his lessons well.
Martz is as CLOSE as there is to an offensive genius as there NOW is in the NFL.
Keep the two Mikes. Mix in a few solid drafts and add a few quality free agents and the Niners can be a real force in the NFL in the coming years.
by GeoMak on Dec 9, 2008 6:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see anyone offering Martz a HC next year… I think the niners deserve a little continuity. And if Sing/Martz have some real sucess next year (read: Playoffs) then they might stick it out together until they make a Super Bowl appearance. Or not.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Dec 10, 2008 1:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Some problems that can be said about the roller coaster of offensive coordinators is installing a new system, familiarity with the players and coaches, and the maturation of certain complicated positions such as the quarterback position.
Having said that, some may wonder why Shaun Hill has progressed and yet Alex Smith has become first pick overall to the goat of the 49ers state. For one, Alex Smith was practically thrown to the wolves. Secondly, Hill had a chance to observe and learn complicated offenses in the sideline and learn from different coordinators. He wasn’t an on-the-job trainee. He became a student of the game with all his years on the bench with the Vikings and then the 49ers. I think that was what made him different from Smith. Smith knew, being a number one pick, that he will eventually become the starter, no matter what.
For the 49ers to become succesful, it is imperative that the team retain the coaching staff. It probably is a given that Singletary and Manusky stays, but certainly it might not be the case for Martz. He might either resign and take another job or be fired. Martz is probably not too popular with the fans who are critical of how the JTO case was handled and how some offensive calls were botched.
Norv Turner was popular 2 years ago for propelling Alex Smith and the team with his offensive schemes. Taking the Chargers job was a no-brainer for him, but in truth, I do not think Norv can ever be a succesful head coach. Mike Martz, as crazy as his offense is, might be the coordinator that can help the franchise achieve play-off team status, again. If Norv Turner is canned by San Diego, I don’t think it would be the right move to bring him back to run the offense. Reason being is, if another job opens up and he becomes a candidate, he will certainly leave again. In Martz, although he was a good coach during his Rams’ days, he is not a hot commodity for a head coaching gig. Thus, retaining Martz is a better choice than having Norv on board.
With the publicity of Singletary and Martz not getting along, I think they actually do. They are both passionate about the game and are good football people. One is a defensive player and the other an offensive guru. They can both co-exist with the same team on the same sideline. And both can learn from each other.
Do you think Martz stays with Singletary as coach? If Singletary is not retained and Martz is not hired as the head coach, would he stay? I hope the front office realizes that, although players play the game, the coaches make a huge impact, too.
Second to None!
by Jeff_Fuller_49 on Dec 10, 2008 2:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Smith vs Hill in learning systems
The two players are very different, in terms of how they grasp a system and how they execute it. Hill, as a natural trait, takes what he’s given while trying to learn more. Smith tries too learn EVERYTHING at once before executing. From what I’ve read before, Smith spends a lot of time asking the “why” questions while guys like Hill and O’Sullivan just accept it.
In short, Hill is built like a guy who can survive being a journeyman (which he has been), while Smith isn’t. Smith needs continuity.
by sfgfan on Dec 10, 2008 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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