Niners Nation Scouting Report: Quentin Groves, DE/LB Auburn

by David Fucillo on Mar 3, 2008 7:40 PM PST in San Francisco 49ers News

So I was checking out the comments in the Weekend Roundup and I noticed an interesting comment I wanted to take and turn into this scouting report. StrictlyFootball mentioned Quentin Groves as a guy who could do really give us some quality depth and help develop the pass rush:

By picking Groves we gain instant depth at the line man position, and combine that with the up and coming players on the D line, like McDonald and Cohen, with Nolan's tendency to switch out most defensive players in a series, we get a very well rounded group of QB bashers.

With Justin Smith at RE, Issac at DT, Groves at LE for our front three, and our LB core from right to left, Lawson, Willis, Thomas, Moore/Banta-Cain/"who the heck ever", this front seven looks supremely fast, strong, and overwhelmingly able to put pressure on the opposing offense.

Most of you are probably thinking that it's absurd that we would pick a DE with the 29th pick in the draft, when we have such glaring needs at WR and at OG and C. But here's the thing, with the depth of WR in the draft class and the signing of Issac Bruce (who is most likely going to fill one of the top three starting roles for that position on our team), the 49ers are looking more and more likely to pick a WR in the second round.

I like the analysis, and I think Quentin Groves could make an impact in the pass rush, but there are some issues to consider as far as where he would fit with the current team. Groves played defensive end in college, but at 254 pounds he's clearly too small for that role in the NFL. StrictlyFootball mentioned the Scout's Inc scouting report and I thought I'd also throw out the New Era Scouting scouting report:

Groves is a player who is probably best-suited for a 3-4 scheme. He really isn't big enough to play in a 4-3 on every down. He'll have to improve in coverage, as he really hasn't had enough experience at linebacker to get a good feel for it. He is a top-end athlete who has a passion for the game, so he'll get every opportunity to learn the position. Productive throughout his career, finishing with 23 sacks and 29 tackles for a loss.

New Era ranks him as the #5 general defensive end, but the #2 3-4 outside linebacker. Groves would be in a similar situation as my boy Jay Moore was last year. Moore was an undersized defensive end who was going to be converted to outside linebacker before suffering a season-ending injury. So the question then is should we draft a guy like Groves with either our first or second round pick, knowing this is the kind of role for which he's best suited? I have to update the mock draft database, but he's a guy I've seen mentioned multiple times at that second round spot.

Groves seems like a guy who would line up as an outside linebacker, but who could rotate in to the line when we're going for more of a speed rush. If the 49ers were to draft Groves, I'd guess he would compete with Jay Moore for playing time and Tully Banta-Cain be worked into an off the bench role rotating with those two and Manny Lawson, primarily in pass rushing downs. Right now our linebacking corp consists of Willis, Lawson, Banta-Cain Dontarrious Thomas, J. Moore, B. Moore, Haralson, Ulbrich and Dennis Haley (signed a 2-year contract in January). Say the starters Willis, Lawson, B. Moore/Thomas and some combination of Banta-Cain, J. Moore, Haralson and others at the other OLB position. Do the 49ers take Groves with a first or second round pick or do you address a more pressing area of need like defensive line depth, offensive line help or wide receivers? You could certainly throw out arguments for both sides of the debate. If the brass thinks Groves can really help the pass rush then maybe you make that move. Personally, I'm thinking OL and WR, but that's just one man's opinion.

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Draft

I would think it would be a great pick up to grab grooves, but realistically he's probably not going to fall to the 29th pick. He's projected to go in the early 20s so unless we trade up it doesnt look like we're gonna be able to stag him.

Please bring back the cherry red jerseys indefinetly!

by mrsuperdude on Mar 3, 2008 7:56 PM PST reply actions

projections

In Todd McShay's most recent mock draft he doesn't have Groves going in the first round.

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by David Fucillo on Mar 3, 2008 8:04 PM PST up reply actions

Thanks for the interest

First off thanks for the front page feed back;) But I think who to take with the first two 49er picks are a very perplexing situation. I honestly don't think that they should use a first round pick on an o-lineman. Many teams in this year's draft are in need of an O-lineman, and in most mock drafts, by the time our pick rolls around we are left with Chilo Rachal, Sam Baker, Carl Nicks, and Mike Pollak, none of whom, if it was either of the last two year's draft, would be in the category of a first round pick.

I do think Jennings and Staley can hold down the tackle position, so I think there is less of a need for a Sam Baker or a Carl Nicks. I know you can always move a tackle over to a guard position, but as many tackles have told me, it is not as easy as many people think. The footwork, techniques, responsibilities, and hook and pulls are highly different and for a rookie to learn all this on top of playing a position where he'll be heading up against the likes of Shaun Rodgers, or an Albert Haynesworth is a bit much for his first year.

Chilo Rachal, OG, is good but is definitely not worthy of a first round pick. The one who I see might be worth it is Mike Pollak at center. Eric Heitmann didn't have a bad year by any means but he didn't have a standout one either. He seems to get pushed around easily, was called a few times for false start, and has a tendency to snap the ball a little high. So an upgrade here might not be a bad thing. But it's still a high price pick for a center.

A WR in the first round would be very nice, especially if Limas Sweed is still on the board. The only thing though is that we have many, many, WRs and if we do use a first round pick on a WR who will go and what would our new WR play, 1st string, 2nd, 3rd? It seems an awful waste of money if Bruce was kicked to forth WR. I still think D-Jack can return to his Seattle form, so to me he would be a first or second string. Obviously as our most productive receiver battle would have to be in the mix for the top three spots as well. But assuming those four take the top four spots what happens to Hill, Lelie, and Gilmore, not to mention the other three WRs?

If we take a WR in the first or second round I think a trade would be impending. Maybe for another pick or maybe for an o-lineman, who knows, but something will have to be done. While I'm on the trade subject some other names I think we could trade and not hurt us, dramatically: Walt Harris and Joe Nedney. I know many may be shocked but hear me out. Shawntae Spencer could be a number two cornerback anywhere else in the league and with him being locked up till 2012 why not make the natural progression and make him the number two. Harris is getting old and since this is his last signed year anyway, may as well get some good trade value for Harris while we can.

Nedney may be looking at the out and out anyways with his shot-y performances the last few years and the Niners drafting a kicker last years (he was released) and another earlier this year (albeit a punter, but in an interview he discussed how he was shocked to be signed behind pro-bowler Andy Lee but went on to say how in practice he was practicing field goals a little more than punts). Gone are the days were he was automatic from inside the thirty and with his contract coming to an end sooner rather than later, might as well shop him around.

I am not saying Quentin Groves is the answer, but an early round DE pick up, with a draft that's chalk full of good ones, can be the spark to the 49ers defense and meta morph itself from a bend but don't brake defense, to a bend and brake you defense.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 3, 2008 9:31 PM PST reply actions

under-sized issue

Do you agree that Groves would probably spend more time at outside linebacker than he would at DE? You make a good point about MJD but he was always a bowling ball with legs. Groves on the other hand is just a really small dude as a DE and if you had him add the weight to be a legit-sized DE you'd probably kill his speed.

I could see him lining up as a DE in certain situations, but I would imagine it would not be all that frequently.

However, I do agree an early round DE would be quite useful.

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by David Fucillo on Mar 3, 2008 9:36 PM PST up reply actions

Second times a charm...

I try posting this and it didn't work, let's see if it works this time.

Ideally I would like to draft Calais Campbell he is a pure DE for a 3-4 defense which I like but most likely he will be picked before our turn.

Quentin Groves is obviously not a pure DE so I think if the 49ers were to draft him the defense would change to a hybrid form of 3-4 or perhaps a 3-3. Quentin Groves might not be an every down LE but he doesn't need to be. On some downs Aubrayo Franklin can come in as the DT and Sopoaga can line up as LE and Groves hang back as a LOLB. This isn't meant to mean that I don't have faith in Groves to be continuously a DE because I do.

Groves played pretty much in one of the tougher conferences in college football playing for Auburn and he still always got sacks. He faced LSU, Arknsas, Florida, Georgia, and Kansas. They all have some big fellas, two are actually projected as first round contenders, but Groves still motored by them despite having an arguably week LB core.

Groves I feel can have an immediate impact on the defense and become a big contributer. He is also one of Nolan's guys as in he has motor running constantly, doesn't give up on plays, and loves football.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 3, 2008 10:40 PM PST up reply actions

One thing

I'm still just not sure if a guy's ability to get sacks is what we should be concerned with when drafting for defensive line. I mean, you always want your ends to be able to get pressure, but it's a lot more important in the 4-3 than it is in the 3-4. The very short version is that in either of the two basic sets, your sacks are going to come from your "4" and not your "3." I'm much more interested in a guy's ability to draw double teams and to cover the run than his ability to get penetration.

Anyway, just my two cents.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 3, 2008 11:28 PM PST up reply actions

Quick Correction...

Sorry for the later paragraphs G.F.E.s and slightly confusing sentence placement. I was working on something else at the same time.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 3, 2008 9:38 PM PST up reply actions

Hmmm

We differ on some points, and I'll touch on them some here in the order you bring them up.

First is Jennings: I don't believe for a second that Jennings is starting next season. He went nut bin loony on the team and coaches this year, played with complete ineffectiveness when he was on the field, and was unreliable as a teammate and human being when he wasn't on the field. I don't think Nolan likes him at all, and we know what happens when Nolan doesn't like a guy. And frankly, I'm fine with that in this case. Jennings has been nothing but a burden since we signed him. Either hurt or psycho, never contributing positively. I'll take a project draft pick over an obviously talented but completely unreliable fat guy anyday. The only reasons to even keep him on the team at this point are because 1) we don't have many offensive lineman and we at least need the depth, and 2) might as well not sink the cost as long as we have the roster spot. But starting? Absolutely not, in my mind.

Sorry, I get passionate about Jennings. I do. not. like. him.

So I think that seriously opens up the need, by your system, for one of Sam Baker or Carl Nicks. It would also be nice to have somebody come in now, regardless of what happens with Jennings, who will be able to man that position for a long time when Jennings is, by my prediction, discourteously dismissed from the team either at or before the end of his contract.

I also disagree that C would be the way to go if we do go any way on the O-line. Eric Heitmann did have a poor year last year, but he was also less than a year removed from a major leg injury. And it takes more than a year to fully recover from that kind of break. I expect Eric Heitmann in 2008 to be completely recovered at last and back to his 2006 form, which was pretty darn good.

I also don't see Larry Allen coming back, which opens another hole on that left side. And even if Allen does come back, I'm not convinced that hole still doesn't exist. With Smiley gone, Allen likely gone, and Jennings rightfully doghoused, that leaves pretty much only Heitmann and Staley who I have faith in. I like Wragge, as well, but he's best served on any team as sort of a "utility lineman" and seeing him as a hands down starter likely can't be a good sign.

So, in short, I think offensive line really has to be a premium. Except I disagree that we have to worry about our Center. I would be very, very disappointed if one of our top two picks was not on the offensive side of the trench.

As receivers go, I have long been the most passionate dark horse first round receiver booster on this site for 2008. Last year I firmly established my stance against the first round receiver for all of the sensible and statistical reasons. Receivers typically take longer to develop, and the difference between early round picks and later round picks is, statistically speaking, much less defined than any other position by nature of being more of a crapshoot than any other position. For some reason, scouting on receivers is historically less accurate than any other position on the field. Playing the percentages actually demands that, barring somebody exceptional, you do not draft WR highly.

This year I was all against that, though. Everything considered, I thought WR HAD to be the pick. The only pick the team could justify to the fans. The only pick that would be a statement about the offense. The only pick that would, potentially, be able to make an honest impact over last year right away. Now, I relent from that completely. The Isaac Bruce signing (which I was also firmly against before I saw the salary figures, which are fantastic) completely frees the team up to wait until the second day to draft receiver. We don't need even the shred of a possibility of immediate impact at receiver now and can afford to play the percentages on a longer term project. I wouldn't be very hapy with Limas Sweed. I'd hate Manningham. I don't have strong feelings for Early Doucet. I have serious doubts about DeSean Jackson. Pretty much, only Hardy gets me excited but even him I'm excited for the wrong reasons for and don't know if it's worth sacrificing a trench pick at this point.

I think Bruce is likely our 1st receiver already. He's the fastest, the most talented, and he knows the system. Don't see how he could be lower. As for anybody outside of Bruce/Jackson/Battle/Hill, even the ones I like are highly expendable for the sake of the right guy in the draft. Even as much as I like rooting for Gilmore.

Personally, I'd rather see NT get addressed on the DL with one of the two early picks. I absolutely need to see OL get addressed. I'd be happy with a guy like Groves, but I'd rather have a guy who push Sopoaga/Franklin, because I don't think our DEs are in that bad shape with Douglas/Smith/Macdonald if we can also bounce Sopoaga and Franklin out to the end more often by having a truer NT in there to give us that freedom.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 3, 2008 11:23 PM PST up reply actions

Yikes

Apologies for what is occasionally massively unclear grammar. I was in a bit of a frenzy to type that. I don't usually post such volume in comment. Heck, I don't usually post half that volume in one comment.

This discussion inspired me, though. I think we can excuse bad grammar just this once for the sake of inspiration... I hope....

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 3, 2008 11:33 PM PST up reply actions

Still not sure about drafting a O-lineman early

I agree with you on Jennings, I've never been fond of the guy as well (tried an interview last year and was a total Douche) but I still see tackle as a stronger position (can always draft a second day guy with great potential or had problems with injury). The thing about the center position is Heitmann's contract is up after this year, and by all means he is not the youngest player, he will never be an A-class athlete, and unfortunately 49ers don't have a great record when it comes to re-signing free agent O-lineman.

Guard is also a glaring concern sadly. I think we can get a good guard in the third round but I do have an Idea on how to get an additional. Trade Walt Harris and a DE/LB/WR to pick up one of the Giants Gs (They got like 4) perhaps David Diehl or Chris Snee, two very good Gs in their prime. Same with Tampa for Davin Joseph perhaps. All I'm saying is we have plenty of depth in positions we are strong at (except WR) and we should use that to get some quality O-lineman.

I do wish Smiley had stayed and I sincerely doubt Larry Allen will be back unless he thinks this team has what it takes to make a run at it. Kind of like a Brett Farve situation.

WR though is something we must improve at and I understand you wanting to get a second day WR but that hasn't worked out for the 49ers all that well, Maxwell, Lloyd, Williams, and probably now Hill. I think when it comes to offense Nolan has no eye for diamonds in the ruff. I think Nolan knows if he doesn't produce a winning season he's out of the job so I'm pretty sure he's going to use this motivation to draft a first or second round WR. He needs to get the 49ers better quick and the one thing he has not addressed since his tenor is a WR, and a 1st round WR might just bring that immediate impact to the offense he desperately needs.
I agree with you on Jennings, I've never been fond of the guy as well (tried an interview last year and was a total Douche) but I still see tackle as a stronger position (can always draft a second day guy with great potential or had problems with injury). The thing about the center position is Heitmann's contract is up after this year, and by all means he is not the youngest player, he will never be an A-class athlete, and unfortunately 49ers don't have a great record when it comes to re-signing free agent O-lineman.

I do wish Smiley had stayed and I sincerely doubt Larry Allen will be back unless he thinks this team has what it takes to make a run at it. Kind of like a Brett Farve situation.

And if your looking for a nose tackle than I think a good grab in the draft would be Grove's partner in crime Pat Sims from Auburn. Here's what Scouts Inc. says about him:

----------------------------------------------

Strengths: Has an explosive first step, does a good job of anticipating the snap and can shoot into the backfield. Has active hands, has above-average upper body strength and makes it difficult for blockers too lock onto frame. Takes adequate pursuit angles and is fluid scraping down the line of scrimmage. Plays with a good motor and is a relentless pass rusher. Squares up to ball carriers, wraps up upon contact and is an effective tackler that can deliver big hits. Plays with a mean streak, takes the shortest path to the quarterback and flashes the ability to collapse the pocket. Runs line stunts well and flashes an effective rip move when works inside. Can redirect and shows an adequate spin move. Keeps head up, gets hands up when isn't going to get the quarterback and times jumps fairly well. Played with a cast on hand at times last year and is tough.

Weaknesses: Though comes out of stance low to the ground, has a tendency to stand up, lacks elite lower body strength and has problems holding ground against double teams. Doesn't play with a wide base, doesn't protect legs well enough and occasionally gets knocked to the ground. Quicker than fast and lacks elite range. Lacks ideal closing speed and can be step slow getting to the quarterback. Sat out 2005 season so only has two years of playing experience and is raw. Appears lost at times, has some problems locating the ball and gets caught out of position a little too much. Can be overaggressive and gets caught too far upfield at times. Doesn't have ideal instincts, has some problems adjusting to down blocks and doesn't do a great job of sniffing out screens.

Overall: Auburn redshirted Sims in 2004 and he didn't play in 2005. Sims appeared in all 13 games of the 2006 season finishing with 16 total tackles including five tackles-for-loss and three sacks. He started 12 of the 13 games he appeared in during the 2007 season finishing with 37 total tackles including 29 unassisted tackles and 11.5 tackles-for-loss. Sims also recorded 4.5 sacks, 12 quarterback-hurries, two forced fumbles, one fumble recovery and three pass breakups last year. Sims has to work on reading his keys and staying low to the ground but he has the tools to develop into an excellent starter. He's strong enough to hold his own against the run in a one-gap scheme and he's got the initial burst to force quarterbacks to get rid of the ball quickly. Keeping that in mind, Sims projects as a late first or second round pick.

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He wouldn't be a bad pick up but I definitely think a first or second round pick on a defensive lineman would be a welcome addition.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 4, 2008 12:30 AM PST up reply actions

WTF???

I don't know why but when it got posted it copied the first four paragraphs over again. I think it's my laptop, one time it didn't even post a comment and I had to re-type the whole darn thing. Just skip paragraph's 5-7.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 4, 2008 12:37 AM PST up reply actions

Pat Sims

I'm a fan of Pat Sims, and the closer we've been getting to draft day the more I've been wanting to see him be that first pick.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 4, 2008 10:15 AM PST up reply actions

OR

Or that second pick. Whichever works out better.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 4, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions

sniff - sniff

What's that I smell? Why I believe it's a Pat Sims scouting report coming sometime soon!

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by David Fucillo on Mar 4, 2008 10:26 AM PST up reply actions

Hmmm

I hope that's a good smell....

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 4, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions

The transition to guard...

... can't be as difficult as you're making it sound. The 49ers have two players that can play both positions, able to switch between the positions within any given week (or even game). It's a matter of fit at those positions, not so much the learning curve.

The 49ers seem to share this belief, as I pointed out they have guys that can flop all over. In addition to that, they happen to believe you could find a very good guard in the middle rounds of the draft, but I don't know if that has more to do with demand or just necessary skill-set.

I strongly disagree with the assessment of trading Nedney OR Harris. Harris may not have the speed anymore, but that IS what Shawntae Spencer is there for. Harris is a VERY experienced guy who knows his assignments and plays to them well (explaining his ability to be in "the right place at the right time" so many times). So what if he shifts inside on passing downs? He's more valuable right now at nickelback than any of the 49ers other options.

The 49ers drafted a kicker last year? They may have signed an undrafted guy, but teams do that every offseason. Teams like to go into training camp with at least two kickers and two punters (so you don't over-work your starters).

by sfgfan on Mar 4, 2008 9:42 AM PST up reply actions

The transition...

The 49ers are notorious for drafting tweeners. Thus we have a lot of guys who can switch over to similar positions on defense. But on offense the fact that we have tweeners is the reason we are having issues on the o-line. We have no true G most have switched between and have suffered because of it. Last years offense was as simplistic as coloring inside the lines of a coloring book. We also benefited from having a on the bubble hall of fame guard in Larry Allen and a very, very good guard in Smiley. Both are gone. With Mike Martz's new offensive to be put in place there is a lot more movement for the offensive line. Single outs, pulls to other side, double teams, a move called the let by, also guards have the biggest responsibility in ensuring a runners path. They must be aware of what side the running back will run on and block out the opposing guy at the opposite angle. There is a lot more than just push and hold.

Harris after this year is gone, most likely won't be re-signed and so I think it's time to start making moves to have a legitimate back up CB groomed. I love Harris but I have talked with many 49er analysts who say after this year he is out.

Nedney, was just trade fotter. Honestly don't expect him to go but could get a good draft pick for him and help the salary cap.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 4, 2008 10:58 AM PST up reply actions

Are you kidding?

The two starting guards by the end of last season were guys drafted to play guard. Just because they can play anywhere else, doesn't make them any weaker at guard.

I don't know if this is what you're saying, but are you saying last year's line was better because of Allen and Smiley? If that's the case, I'm sure there are plenty of people here (and in "Ninerland") that will beg to differ. I'm not saying those two were the root of all evils along the line, but they had their fair share of problems, just like everyone else.

Harris is actually signed through 2009 (so you and your "analysts" are wrong. He won't be re-signed after that, but he has a lot of value to the 49ers this year (and possibly next). So much so that he'd be more valuable to the 49ers than any draft pick they could receive for him (because I don't think any other teams will value him as much). If you were an opposing team, how much would you really give up for Walt Harris?

I pose the exact same question for Joe Nedney, a kicker. Most teams don't even draft kickers (most kickers are UDFAs), so why give up a draft pick to acquire one?

by sfgfan on Mar 4, 2008 11:23 AM PST up reply actions

Nedney

Nobody trades for kickers, especially old crappy ones.

Here's to hoping Albert Hanyesworth stomps on Alex Smith's head.

by methodrampage on Mar 4, 2008 12:07 PM PST up reply actions

I concede but their is a little confusion

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that the two Guards we had last year were guards and such were a benefit at those positions, they weren't tweeners. By having guys who aren't great at specific position but good at multiple positions makes for a great back up, but doesn't add up to a solid starter. What I was trying to illustrate was that by drafting a tackle in the first round and switching him to guard will be a difficult task for most rookies and add on top of that Mike Martz's very complicated offense, it will be a lot for a rookie to handle. Some people are saying it's easy to switch from being a great tackle to a great guard without loosing a step, or taking time, but it's just not that simple. And Nolan wants to win this year.

Nolan knows this this year has to be a playoff year or he's out. The o-line needs dramatic improvements and that won't happen just by selecting an O-line man in the first round. Their is arguably a case that their are three holes on the O-line. I like Baas and I think he can be solid player and he is an improving G, but to further illustrate my point is that, he was a 33rd overall second round pick and he has started only 13 games over the last 3 seasons. Just because we draft an O-lineman with the number one or number two pick doesn't guarantee a guy who can start every game in the NFL and be good.

You were right about Harris, I was looking at his original contract, I didn't see the extension through 2009. I still see him though contributing to a team much like Bruce is contributing to ours. Perhaps at a NY Giants or an Atlanta Hawks. All I am trying to say is cornerback is one of our strong points on this team, and our o-line needs help.

Nolan knows this this year has to be a playoff year or he's out. The o-line needs dramatic improvements and that won't happen just by selecting an O-line man in the first round. Their is arguably a case that their are three holes on the O-line. I like baas and I think he can be solid player and he is an improving G, but to further illustrate my point is that he was a 33rd overall second round pick and he has started only 13 games over the last 3 seasons. Just because we draft an O-lineman with the number one or number two pick doesn't guarantee a guy who can start every game in the NFL and be good.

I disagree with you on Nedney. But I would like to say first that it was a passing comment that I thought would be interesting to entertain. But definitely like a team like the Texans or the Saints could use a guy like Nedney. The likely hood we would trade him though is 0.0000001%. He's a solid kicker who released us from a "curse" of bad kickers. And once again I like the guy.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 4, 2008 1:32 PM PST up reply actions

Seriously WTF???

Why does it keep re-copying paragraphs! just skip the fourth paragraph.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 4, 2008 1:38 PM PST up reply actions

Guard

I don't think anyone really wants the 49ers to draft a tackle and move them inside. I know that I want the 49ers to take an offensive tackle that can unseat Jonas "my pinky is sore" Jennings at RT. I think there are plenty of tackles this year that are completely capable of doing just that.

Jennings could either then be kept as a backup (getting him to learn how to play guard if he can) . The team could also trade him to a team desperate for a tackle that wouldn't mind taking on the remainder of his contract.

I really don't think the team has three holes along the line. I think it's really one (maybe two) holes that can be fixed with the drafting of one (maybe two) guys. You point out that Baas has only started 13 games in three seasons, but he played behind a guy you said yourself was a "good" guard in Smiley. The other guard position was occupied by someone else you boasted, Larry Allen. Baas' ability to play center made him a very valuable person on the bench, but it didn't make him a weaker player than either starter (as he showed late in the season last year). Adam Snyder fits a very similar shoe, as he played well in the absence of starters over the past few years.

The coaching staff views both those guys as guards, and now they'll both have the opportunity to show the coaches what they can do. The big thing is that the 49ers NEED another tackle for the future, as Jennings just isn't that. I think taking one at the bottom of the first could accomplish just that.

I understand that a high draft pick won't always provide for a guy who can start every game and be good. In this year's draft, though, a tackle taken in the first or second round has a very good opportunity to do so. This is true for ANY team in the NFL, and not just the 49ers, too.

by sfgfan on Mar 4, 2008 2:00 PM PST up reply actions

I forgot about Snyder

Note to self: stop forgetting about Snyder.

Still doesn't change my overall opinion, but I should try to remember him.

Which is weird because I've been a real fan of his for a while now.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 4, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions

Draft

I think we should go:

OL
Groves or WR
WR if Groves OLB if not
OL
OL

That what we should do. We need a top notch player to help out Joe Staley. That guy from BC will likely be aviable and I would love to see Brendan Albert if aviable. A guard in the 4th and 5th will help with depth as well. I think Flynn will be a good pick up at center and will allow Hightmen to move to guard. With Staley being the only for sure starter, it will be interesting to see how Dave Baas, Adam Synder, Eric Hightmen, Johans Jennings, and draft picks compete for those other 4 slots.

by montasmob69 on Mar 3, 2008 10:52 PM PST reply actions

OL

is by far the biggest need
id go-

tackle or guard
wr
tackle or guard

4-7 best available

by sam23 @ Niners Nation on Mar 3, 2008 11:37 PM PST reply actions

Draft Selection with Names

Picks 1 and 2 can be alternated depending on who's the best available. I'm just going on who I think will be available by most mock draft boards. First name is who I want most than descends in order.

Pick 1: Limas Sweed (WR) Calais Campbell (DE), Quentin Groves (DE), James Hardy(WR),

Pick 2: Pat Sims (DT), Early Doucet (WR), Devin Thomas, Earl Bennett (WR)

Pick 3: Roy Schuening (OG), Anthony Collins (OT), Tony Hills (OT), Duane Brown (OT)

Diamonds in the Ruff:
WR: Jordy Nelson (seriously good), Andre Caldwell and Eddie Royal
OL: Barry Richardson, Michael McGlynn, Jordan Grimes
DL: Wallace Gilberry, Jeremy Thompson, Frank Okam, Nick Hayden
CB/S: Marcus Griffin, DJ Parker, Tom Zbikowski, Terrell Thomas, Zackary Bowman, Dwight Lowery

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 4, 2008 1:35 AM PST reply actions

No

Calais campell showed up to the combine fa ad slow. It shows he is not ready for the NFL. Maybe he is not as committed. Groves woud be a great pick but I think we could get him in round 2. Mike Martz, as mentioned from a previous article, do not like big WR. Shaun McDonald, Kevin Curtis, Mike Furry, Isaac Bruce, and Torry Holt are all 6'1 or 6'0 and 180-190. Only Calvin Johnson and Roy Willaims are 6'3+ 200+. And even still, he seemed to call the little guys numbers just as often.James Hardy and Limas Sweed are both 220+ and 6'5. As for a first round WR, the best options woul be DeSaun or Early Deucette. But with Desaun unlikely to fall and Early's injury, inconsistant play, cocky additde, and poor work ethics, I must ask if he is really a niner. OL is the biggest prblem. We have the least amount of depth and the least amount of quality players. I think Hightmen will return to 06 form, staley wil be great, and Baas will break through. So what about RG and RT? Well I am in favor of moving Highmen to RG, signing Flynn from the Ravens, and drafting one of those top tier tackles in the first round. Then help Johas Jennings, Adam Synder, and Tony Wragge with some depth improvements in the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds. ind some room in maybe the 2nd or 3 to trade up and sign a WR, maybe. But I think we are fine. Bruce, Jackson, Battle, Lelie with the Disease. That's not bad. I'd like to see Bryant Johnson or D.J.Hackket join our team instead so we would not even have to waste one draft pick on a WR. And don't count out Jackson. If he can actually catch the ball he would not be half bad. I mean, he was always open, which means he runs good routes. I bet he makes a nice comeback in 08. Battles good at #3, and Lelie is actually pretty good if we were to actually play him. I'm telling you all, the nine4rs will be for real in 08 with the right offseason signings and draft picks.

by montasmob69 on Mar 4, 2008 8:06 AM PST reply actions

I forgot about Baas.

Note to self: stop forgetting about Baas.

Doesn't change my overall opinion, but I should try to remember him.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 4, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions

damn

you go away from the computer for one night and miss all the action.

I think we have to go offense with our first pick, hell first two picks. I just can't see how we can justify picking defensive players after last season, and after signing a new DE and a new LB in free agency. The defense was already pretty good, and yeah, we're losing a few people, but the priority HAS to be on offense. And even though we have Bruce, I think we still need to get a WR with one of our first picks.

I'm not convinced Bruce is a #1 anymore. He wasn't in St Louis. He is on the downside of his career, and while I like the signing, I think we still need to get a WR in this draft. I like Battle, and I'd like to see more of Hill, but I'm kind of over Jackson, and I couldn't care less about Gilmore, Lelie, Brewer, Rabb, other warm body we have running around - trade who you can, cut who you can't. It's like, yeah, maybe Jackson is an OK receiver, but I'm not gonna cry about losing him if we get someone better. I have no sentimental attachment to these guys. If we land a good WR and some OL guys and maybe some depth on defense or a NT, we might be good.

Bring back the classic Uni's!

by wjackalope on Mar 4, 2008 9:07 AM PST reply actions

I hate to be the guy...

that keeps comparing our team to other teams, but is it possible the brain trust are following sort of what the Seahawks have done having 4 or 5 mid-level receivers trying to create mismatches when they spread out the defense and get a good reciever on a nickleback, safety, linebacker. Given how teams stacked the box against the run to stop Gore this season spreading the defense out with 3 or 4 capable recievers (although none are a true "number 1")and a receiveing TE could be just what the doctor ordered for Gore. That said I know we don't have Matt Hasselback so maybe its all for naught but it could be a possibility. Plus it is a situation that DJax flurshed in.

Tom will never be as cool as Joe

by wader251 on Mar 4, 2008 10:59 AM PST up reply actions

well

To exploit matchups like that, you need a QB who will know when and where to find them.

If Alex Smith is starting next year, we won't have that option.

by shleckothegecko on Mar 5, 2008 12:38 AM PST up reply actions

I'm not completely sure.

Groves is an athletic freak of nature in college, but he's not as big of a freak as what Manny Lawson was a couple of years ago when he was drafted. Lawson was a lot quicker/faster, and thus it aided his transition to OLB a little bit. How so? His athleticism (or abundance of it) allowed him to "cushions" to adjust to mistakes he's made in coverage and such (which is also why he plays strong-side LB now).

Can Groves do that from the OLB position? Is he THAT athletic? I don't know for sure if he is or not. He could always play weak-side OLB (as Fooch pointed out), though.

The choice you make will boil down to a couple of fairly simple (read: complex) questions. Is taking on a project of a OLB really worth your late first round pick right now (i.e. with all the other needs)? Do you really want Jonas Jennings to man the RT position for years to come? Would Groves provide more value at OLB than say someone like Calais Campbell at DE (who is slated to be picked somewhere around the same time as Groves)?

I don't know if I could answer these questions for sure, but I think that if it boiled down to selecting a WR or Groves, I'd gladly take Groves. Between someone like Baker and Groves, however, I think I'd go with Baker (a four year starter at OT for USC? I'll take it). You could then turn around and maybe turn Jennings into a 3rd round pick or something to turn into a WR (highly unlikely trade of course, with the most likely scenario being a draft pick for next year's draft).

by sfgfan on Mar 4, 2008 9:34 AM PST reply actions

We MUST...

...draft someone for the OL with our first pick, as whoever we draft for the line will need to start. That's pretty significant for the workings of the entire offense, so you want to get the best player you can regardless of who else is available when pick #29 comes up.

by jaytierney on Mar 4, 2008 12:50 PM PST reply actions

I don't know..

Couple the first and second pick so close to each other and the supposed abundance of "good" tackles in this draft, the 49ers are in a position to take the "best player available" at #29. They could take a DE, OLB, CB, or even a WR if they wanted and they could still get a potential starting offensive lineman with the next pick. What you don't do with ANY first round pick is paint yourself into a corner with who you can or can't pick, which the 49ers have done a fair job of avoiding the past couple of years.

by sfgfan on Mar 4, 2008 2:18 PM PST up reply actions

I agree...

I think there is an abundance of OL and Wr in this draft that we should look to replace add another DE (where Douglas and BY will no longer be). But there are 2nd or 3rd rounders who can be primary backups or starters in this team.. ok maybe not starters.. but definitely help as far as depth for these positions. I feel our secondary should be adressed as well... I don't know about everyone else but Roman and Lewis are not the answer and/or future... If we can trade a couple of spots up, throw in Ulbrich to compensate we can probably draft Kenny Phillips-Miami (projected to go at #27)

Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.

by bayboy on Mar 4, 2008 3:27 PM PST up reply actions

hmmm

I think the team actually thinks (Michael) Lewis is the long-term solution with a contract that doesn't expire until after the 2012 season (although I think the majority of his bonus money will be paid for by the end of this season). Roman, on the other hand, may be a different story.

The team has a few potential free safeties, though. Aside from Roman, they're pretty high on Dashon Goldson, who got quite a bit of face time in the second half of last season. I'd expect him to push Roman at FS. The 49ers also have Marcus Hudson, who the 49ers like a CB, but (in many other people's eyes) may be better suited (physically) as a free safety.

The 49ers will most definitely be looking at defensive backs. I don't, however, think they'll paint themselves into a corner by looking for only a free safety or a corner. They could really afford to take either.

As for trading up by trading the 29th and Ulbrich? I don't think Ulbrich is really worth much to most other teams, especially teams picking in the mid to late 20s.

by sfgfan on Mar 4, 2008 4:04 PM PST up reply actions

I'm not sure why

This kid thinks Ulbrich, who was a back up last, year has any kind of value to anyone one else but he keeps bringing him up as trade bait.

Here's to hoping Albert Hanyesworth stomps on Alex Smith's head.

by methodrampage on Mar 4, 2008 4:09 PM PST up reply actions

jajajaja....

Just looking for a way to get rid of a lb who collects tackles by jumping on a pile and who gets ran over when he tries to tackle someone.

Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.

by bayboy on Mar 5, 2008 7:36 AM PST up reply actions

Ok

but why would anyone want "a lb who collects tackles by jumping on a pile and who gets ran over when he tries to tackle someone"?

Here's to hoping Albert Hanyesworth stomps on Alex Smith's head.

by methodrampage on Mar 5, 2008 8:12 AM PST up reply actions

precisely my point....

get a 7th rounder if you must and be done with it...

Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.

by bayboy on Mar 5, 2008 10:48 AM PST up reply actions

7th rounder

That wasn't precisely your point, though. Your original point was that Ulbrich would allow the 49ers to move up in the first.

Besides, Ulbrich, regardless of what you say, is worth a lot more to the 49ers than any potential 7th round pick.

by sfgfan on Mar 5, 2008 11:19 AM PST up reply actions

my point...

was to get rid of ulbrich... whether it be 5th, 6th or 7th rounder it wouldn't matter just to get him out of a niner uni

Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.

by bayboy on Mar 5, 2008 12:24 PM PST up reply actions

Yeah

Yeah, now it is. The point Braekneck and I are trying to make is Ulbrich is either a 49er or he'll be cut. No one's going to give up anything to get him.

by sfgfan on Mar 5, 2008 12:28 PM PST up reply actions

Got Ya!

Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.

by bayboy on Mar 5, 2008 1:35 PM PST up reply actions

DE Depth

There's already ample depth at DE; Cohen, Fields, McDonald, Oliver, [possibly] Sopoaga, [possibly] Franklin, and the newly acquire Justin Smith. We spent two mid draft picks on potential DEs last year and I'm more concerned with getting TBC out of the starting line up than I am with adding another player are a fairly insignificant position in the 3-4.

Here's to hoping Albert Hanyesworth stomps on Alex Smith's head.

by methodrampage on Mar 4, 2008 4:15 PM PST up reply actions

How about

Trading for an extra early second rounders, say for a third this year and a second next. Then get OL in the first, the two Aubrun boys in the second(Sims and Groves) and some more OL in later rounds. We won't fix our receiving problems with a rookie. A guy like D.J. Hackket would works much better. I'd be glad to sign him and we would have a pretty Seahawk like coor with Jackson, Hackett, Bruce, and Battle, all guys who are decent.

by montasmob69 on Mar 4, 2008 11:15 PM PST reply actions

Just out of curiosity

I'm not really a "trade proposal!" kind of speculator, myself. I've just made too many trades in Madden to believe for a second that I could think of possible trades in real life terms, so I tend to stay away from trying. Also, I just don't know the rest of the league well enough to know what's available in trades.

But just out of curiosity, when you're working out these trade proposals using draft picks, do you use the draft pick point system to try and maintain equal value for both sides, or do you just kind of play it intuitively?

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down... over and over....

by howtheyscored on Mar 4, 2008 11:30 PM PST up reply actions

How...

... do you suppose the team get that extra "early second rounder"? Trading next year's first? Or trading next year's second and third? No thanks.

by sfgfan on Mar 5, 2008 9:41 AM PST up reply actions

I still think you could get....

I think you can't just look at it like you can only trade away one guy for a pick. We have plenty of depth at WR might as well trade a Gilmore, Lelie, perhaps even a Battle or Hill add that with a LB like Banta-Cain or Ulbrich maybe even a Moore, plus add in maybe another player like a RB like Robinson or Clayton or a CB, or possibly a second day draft pick you may be able to swing a second round draft pick or a third round. From there if you want a higher pick I'm sure you can swindle a deal for maybe a next year pick with whatever pick you just traded for.

Of course I know I'm probably talking crap, but then again the 49ers for two years in a row have gotten two first round draft picks and they still have a pick for every round this year.

Than again you could trade away the first round pick this year for a second and a third or something equivalent or better.

I think it's also important to say that with with Harris' departure and the retirement of Bryant Young, the 49ers have none of their own first-round picks that pre-date the arrival of Mike Nolan and Scot McCloughan in 2005.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 5, 2008 12:30 PM PST reply actions

Two to tango.

The problem with all these trade proposals (and I'm not just shooting at yours) is that they're basically Madden trades. No one in their right mind would give up a whole lot (if anything) to take on Lelie, Banta-Cain or Ulbrich's salaries. Instead of throwing up hypothetical trades to anonymous teams, perhaps trade proposals can be thought out a little more and find the 49ers a "suitable" trade partner.

I keep seeing Ulbrich's name thrown out, but I really doubt there's a single team in this league willing to give up anything for him. I would take this as far as saying he wouldn't even be a "sweetener" in any deal that could make or break a decision to make a trade with the 49ers. This is true for guys like Gilmore, Robinson and unproven guys like Clayton and Hill, as well.

Look at history, how many teams have ever traded a draft pick for 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 players? I'm pretty sure there aren't very many. You can't just add up the perceived value of multiple players and say they're worth a higher pick.

The 49ers have gotten multiple first rounders the past two years because compensation picks (as well as a bonehead trade by the Washington Redskins) allowed the 49ers to feel good about trading away their own later picks. In the process (both times) they gave up their second round picks, and in one case they gave up a future #1. You have to give up value to get value, and in order to give up value you have to be comfortable with what you'll have left over.

The 49ers have 7 draft picks this year and have no reason to expect compensation picks. So unless there is a unexplainable desire for guys like Brandon Moore (who there are plenty of on most NFL rosters), the 49ers don't really have a whole lot to look forward to in terms of trading players for picks, either.

On player I think they CAN trade for a draft pick is Jonas Jennings. If the 49ers are lucky, they may be able to turn him into a 3rd or 4th round pick by sending him to various teams starving for a starting RT. However, I don't think a trade like that would happen until after the draft when teams realize they've failed to fill a need along the line, meaning that draft pick will likely be for next year.

by sfgfan on Mar 5, 2008 12:47 PM PST up reply actions

I do play a little to much madden...

Ok granted maybe I do play a little to much madden but looking to the future who can we honestly do with out, that's worthy of consideration of a forth round pick or higher...

-Jennings, your points are valid and is most likely to be replaced anyway.

-Aubrayo Franklin, many teams are in need of someone on the D line and with the more than likely addition of another D lineman in the draft and Sopoaga's recent contract, it's doubtful Aubrayo will make to much of a splash this season.

-Arnaz Battle, people may be a little shocked here but we have plenty of depth at WR and if we draft a WR in the first or second round he could be on the way out anyways.

There are probably a few others but I have to get going.

by StrictlyFootball on Mar 5, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions

Franklin and Battle

Franklin and Battle are both signed to VERY cheap deals right now for what they can bring to the table.

Contrary to what the media may be pushing, it's very likely that Franklin will see quite a bit of face time on the 49ers defense. For one, there's no guarantee that Sopoaga is going to be the starting nose tackle. As it stands right now, I think the defensive line would look like Sopoaga, Franklin, and Smith. If Sopoaga indeed becomes the starting nose, he will rotate plenty with Franklin, as it's a VERY physically demanding position. Franklin is a talented player who can start that is signed for a very reasonable price. Unless a team blows you away with a trade offer, there is no need to usher him out the door.

Similarly, Battle is one of the coaching staff's favorite players. He works hard. Time and time again, people count him out as one of the team's top receivers, but he steps up and ends up becoming one of the leaders. Even if the 49ers finally develop a true 1 and 2 WR, Battle is still a dependable enough player to play in the slot in passing situations and be the primary receiver when the 49ers go "big", because he's the team's best blocking wideout.

Trading Jennings is truly the most likely (read: only) scenario.

by sfgfan on Mar 5, 2008 1:52 PM PST up reply actions

trading running backs

I am always in favor of trying to move depth to improve elsewhere. One problem with moving any of our running backs is our lack of leverage. Other teams see us with Frank Gore and now DeShaun Foster and realize Robinson and Clayton have a little less value for us than if we were thin at running back.

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by David Fucillo on Mar 5, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions

Clayton

If any teams wanted him they could have plucked him off our practice squad last year. Some of you guys are very wishful thinkers and are perhaps taking the "one man's garbage is another man's treasure" ideology to the extreme.

Here's to hoping Albert Hanyesworth stomps on Alex Smith's head.

by methodrampage on Mar 5, 2008 2:28 PM PST up reply actions

WR

I just can not get excited about any of the WR's that are being mentioned for the niners in round one. If there is someone that can create some pass rush right away or plug in effectivley on the OL...I think that would be the way to go. I'll bet Nolan wants to go Defense in round one.

I do not know much about James Hardy though. 6'7" ! are you kidding me? If he has hands and instincts he might be worth it.

I think DJ Hall may be a huge steel in the draft...in a lower round.

by boulder99 on Mar 10, 2008 11:07 PM PDT reply actions