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QB comparision

Hey it's "sourdoughsam69." I got my new sb nation 2.0 on gsom so i made it a warrior name(even though i like the niners more.) Anyways,I thought that we did a fine job drafting and we need to look ahead to the regular season. QB- ?, Grade- ? Well, we really do not know who is getting the starting good. i have always been a big Alex smith fan and i think e diserves it. If you breakdown smiths 3 healthy games to hills, they are not so far apart. 2-1 for smith, and 2-0(minnesota does not count). Smith had 1 TD-1 Int with about 500 yards. That's not good or bad. But factor a few things in. one, if you watched those game, you know battle fumbled on the 1 and VD dropped 2 tds against the rams. Now that's a 4-1 td-int ratio. Now we are talking. Hill, aroung 500 yards with a 5-1 ratio. Then look at what teams we were facing. An 8-8 cardinals, a healthy rams defense, an the pittsburgh steelers. Hill faced a prevent defense Minnesota Vikings, cincinatti, and tampa's back ups. Smith had the harder match ups. So if you really look at this you see two guys putting up similar stats with smith playing harder defenses. And when you look at 06, you can really see great potential in him, and top it of with a solid sart in 07, and 08 looks pretty good. Keep in mind that Hill was using a basic offense, tha is to simple against good teams. I think smith will win the job because of his football inteligence, and his atural talent he has when healthy. Just watch in 2008 smith will have, 3,578 yards, 18 TDs and 7 INTs. Why only decent stats? Well when you have Frank Gore who will have 2,231 yards, and 19 TDs, you don't have to pass to much.

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gore

Are you saying 2,231 rushing yards for Gore, or total yards???

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by Fooch on Apr 30, 2008 7:35 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

i thought

it was montana’s mob at first glance so it kinda fit.

by sam23 on Apr 30, 2008 8:06 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

only

7 INTs for Smith. Youre smokin crack sourdough.

by sam23 on Apr 30, 2008 8:08 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

No

Smith can be a very accurate passer when healthy. He has a decent O-line, some good WRs in battle, VD, bryant, and bruce, and oh yeah, the most dominate rb in the nfl. It is his time to shine and he will. I know he will.

by montasmob69 on Apr 30, 2008 11:02 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Says who?

He’s never shown that he can be a very accurate passer. Right now you’re just basing your opinion on a whim.

by methodrampage on May 1, 2008 7:53 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

+1

I have more faith in Alex than most, but accuracy is certainly not his strong suit.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on May 1, 2008 1:36 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Neither is his arm...

wait for it…

strength.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on May 2, 2008 11:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

LIES!!!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 2, 2008 12:46 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

gore

2,231 rushing, nfl record, 2723 total, also a record.

by montasmob69 on Apr 30, 2008 11:04 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

also

just read the post all togather and i am sorry for the horrible spelling. Haha how oculd i mispell job as good. wow.

by montasmob69 on Apr 30, 2008 11:05 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

I think you need to invest in a new keyboard

or slow down all “togather.” Gore the most dominant RB in the NFL? I love Gore but…wow. I’m gonna go way out on a limb and say Charger fans and Vikings fans, among others, will take serious issue with that. My guess is Alex Smith will throw 7 interceptions in a third of the season. .......Or are the Niners going undefeated through the preseason, regular season and straight through the Super Bowl too? Maybe Patrick Willis will make a tackle every time the other team snaps the ball. Lets just assume the Niners get 22 starters to the pro bowl and we win that too, just for good measure.

by sam23 on May 1, 2008 12:30 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

yes he has

Alex Smith has proven to be a very accurate passer. if you watch him in the secong half of the 06 season, he had I believe 10 tds and 5ints. That’s pretty good. So if he kept that a whole season it is 20-10. But factor in a more pass friendly offense and some new weapons and it will go down. And if you look at 06, smith performed very well in big games like against Seattle, which shows he resonds well to pressure, which is why he beats out shaun hill as the QB. And he is our former 1 draft pick so that gives him a little advantage. As for gore, i was joking about that nfl record. he may not be the best in the nfl, but with a better o-line, and a oc who will give him the ball more than 15 times a game, I expect a pro-bowl year from him.

by montasmob69 on May 1, 2008 8:20 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

If you're going to judge Smith on 8 games in '06

Then it fair for me to judge him on 4 games in ‘07. He has yet to show he’s an accurate passer through an entire season, plain and simple.

by methodrampage on May 1, 2008 9:44 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Gore

I hope ur rite about Gore getting the ball more than 15 times. Cause that was my largest worry with Martz coming in. Everyone knows he’s a pass happy guy, and we’ve seem him just ignore the running game before (i.e. S. Jackson).

by good as gold on May 1, 2008 11:34 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I thought

Martz was there when Jackson started to take the reigns. But Faulk fit Martz’s offense perfect as well, a back that could catch then run, which i do believe gore can do very well also. I just hope that he will allow Gore to pound 20 times a game as well.

by good as gold on May 1, 2008 11:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Seriously dude, get a clue
Everyone knows he’s a pass happy guy, and we’ve seem him just ignore the running game before (i.e. S. Jackson).

That statement is blantantly false. I’m not sure when Martz left St. Louis but I think it was after the ‘05 season. Check out Faulk’s and Jackson combined numbers for ‘04 and ‘05 and we all know Faulk thrived under Martz prior to Jackson’s arrival.

2004
Faulk: 774 yards rushing; 310 yards receiving
Jackson: 673 yards rushing; 189 yards receiving
Total: 1447 yards rushing; 499 yards recieving

2005
Jackson: 1,046 yards rushing; 320 yards recieving
Faulk: 292 yards rushing; 291 yards receiving
Total: 1338 yards rushing; 611 yards recieving

Yep, its true Faulk and Jackson, as St. Louis’ RB 1A & 1B, were ignored by Martz to the tune of 1946 total yards. In ‘05 Jackson broke 1,000 yards rushing, while being ignored, and combined with Faulk for 1949 total yards. Martz doesn’t necessarily grind it out on the ground but his running backs are very much an integral part of his offensive scheme.

by methodrampage on May 1, 2008 12:05 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

To add to this.

Martz was hired in 1999 as the offensive coordinator and took over as head coach in 2000. In the years between 1999 and 2003 (since the 2004 and 2005 numbers are already above), Faulk had the following averages (per season):

Carries: 237.4
Rushing yards: 1178.6
Catches: 75.2
Receiving yards: 694

That is almost 1900 yards total per season. Not to mention almost 20 touches a game, averaging almost 6 yards per touch. I don’t care if he’s carrying it 20 times a game or 15 times with 5 catches, as long as he’s generating that kind of production, that is all that matters. To put it into perspective, I think the 49ers regularly ran around 50 offensive snaps a game last year. That means that 20 touches per game is already almost half of the offensive plays. What more do you want?

Besides, 20 carries per game (on top of receptions) is a surefire way to ensure that Gore doesn’t even stay effective throughout his contract.

by sfgfan on May 1, 2008 12:50 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

My Fault

Obviously I was wrong. I didn’t have the numbers, that was just my blind observation. Thanks for the information though!

by good as gold on May 1, 2008 3:48 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Seriously dude, get a clue?

Sorry rampage, that just seems a little uncalled for.

Loved the rest of the post, though. Great stuff.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 2, 2008 5:34 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

am an asshole and that’s not going to change.

by methodrampage on May 3, 2008 11:18 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

So long as you own up to it,

I have no problem with it.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 3, 2008 2:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

“Alex Smith has proven to be a very accurate passer. if you watch him in the secong half of the 06 season, he had I believe 10 tds and 5ints.”

That’s sort of like saying “That woman has a beautiful face. If you look at her from behind, you’ll see how perfect her ass is” or “This batter hits for a great average, just look at how many HR’s and RBI’s he has”.

The first statement has little, if anything, to do with the second. After saying Smith has “proven to be a very accurate passer”, you don’t do anything to back this up, but provide Smith’s TD/INT ratio, which could be used to show how productive he is, but not how accurate.

Accuracy is one’s ability to put the ball where it needs to be. TD and INT totals show how productive overall a QB is. If I was trying to pump people up about Smith, I’d mention his athleticism, and the numbers he was able to put up under Turner’s tutelage to show he has the potential to be productive, but I’d steer clear of the accuracy question if at all possible.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on May 1, 2008 1:50 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

few comments

First of all the 10 td/6* int was the first half, not the second. But in the second half, he showed he could win football games. He has pretty good accuracy, especially on the run. Most of you have those grade III separated shoulder game throws stuck in your head. And as I wrote earlier, he maay not have had the sexiest stats in those first 3 games, but they went 2-1. VY’s stats make you want to throw up some times, but he is good because he wins.

by montasmob69 on May 1, 2008 4:58 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Vince Young/Alex Smith/Ryan Leaf

youre right about Vince, but he also has won a national championship and has led a realatively untalented offense to playoff contention his first two years in the league. Lets let Alex prove he can win a couple games in a row before we start making those comparisons. Ryan Leaf won his first two games as a rookie, but that didnt really make him good did it?

by sam23 on May 1, 2008 10:36 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Calling BS on Vince Young

An NFL quarterback has a very limited period during which they can win without having the production to back it up.

We’ve seen it with plenty of guys before. Michael Vick. Rex Grossman. A. J. Feeley. Byron Leftwich. Ahem, ummm, Quincy Carter. All of these guys were labelled “winners” at one point or another, and they all managed to uphold that right up until the point when there was no question that they couldn’t actually do statistical harm to a defense. The “winner” mystique only ever lasts as long as defenses are uncomfortable with a guy’s production potential. Once defenses are comfortable that a guy can’t hurt them, he stops getting the opportunities to win games because nobody fools around trying to protect against the guy’s intangibles anymore.

Vince Young had an AWFUL year in 2006 and got by largely on reputation and Jeff Fischer. In his second season in the NFL he ACTUALLY REGRESSED and had a worse season. Nobody is going to respect Vince Young’s ability to “win a game” in 2008 because he is incapable of actually producing at a level that can win games in the NFL. Just watch. Terrible things await Vince Young in 2008 if he doesn’t demonstrate a significant statistical improvement as an NFL quarterback.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 1, 2008 11:00 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

maybe

but I think Vince is much much better than any of the guys you mentioned.

by sam23 on May 1, 2008 11:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I don't think so

I think he’s pretty overrated..

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 1, 2008 11:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Weird question maybe, but, when talking about QB’s who win in spite of their lack of skill (because their teammates are good), does it seem that white QB’s get labeled as “game managers” and black QB’s get labeled “winners”. This idea just came to me since I noticed that 4 of the 6 guys you listed as winners were black. Sorry for the completely random, and unfounded/unresearched thought.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on May 2, 2008 1:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeah

That was a problem I had coming up with my list. My original list looked something like “Michael Vick, Byron Leftwich, Kordell Stewart, Steve McNair…”

And aside from McNair not being even a remotely fair inclusion, I was alarmed (horrified) at what I was seeing myself doing. I added Quincy Carter for laughs, since he was just so bad, but there is definitely something to the subconscious (or unconscious) recognition of black quarterbacks as “winners” rather than something like “managers” which is tied pretty nefariously to old fashioned (and IDIOTIC) ideas about white quarterbacks being smarter (so they have to get by on something other than talent), and is also tied to the false and equally moronic belief that black quarterbacks are running quarterbacks (which would mean that their ability to “WIN” isn’t related to their passing game or management skills), both of which are still ever present though never acknowledged in media coverage.

But some thought on it breaks down those ridiculous preconceptions pretty quickly. Without trying to get too politicl about it, some other white quarterbacks who fit this bill of winners until proven shitty include Kyle Orton (“game manager”), Chad Pennington, J. P. Losman, and Elvis Grbac (kind of, just wanted to drop the name really). All of those, Grbac aside, are just in the last few years, too.

It’s a little like a scouting report in baseball. A guy naturally as an easier time before anybody knows what they bring to the table. Some untalented guys are able to take advantage of that opportunity in the form of early success. But they always come back down once their true skills are established at a professional level.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 2, 2008 1:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

It’s sort of like how the gritty, hustly players in baseball are mostly white. Anyways, as I said, my thoughts on it were no more than a passing thought.

As for Pennington, I actually think he could be a good QB in the right system. I guess that could be said about a lot people, but he was actually pretty good for a while.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on May 2, 2008 3:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

it could be

also that the athleticism of some of the black qb’s who are “winners” makes them more than just mere “game managers.” no excuse for byron leftwich but otherwise its hard to judge until we see an athletic white qb who isnt great but tends to win. (closest thing we’ve seen is Jake the Snake who was called a “winner” more times than “game manager” I think)

by sam23 on May 2, 2008 3:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

We agree on one thing --

Alex is quite accurate on the run. Why he hasn’t been able to carry that over to his pocket passing, I don’t know.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on May 1, 2008 11:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Vince is definately not good, no matter how you look at it.

As for the Niners 2-1 start last year, do you remember those games? They barely won those two incredibly ugly games, so I’m not ready to start calling Alex Smith “a winner” just yet.

by methodrampage on May 2, 2008 7:38 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

alex in the pocket

That was one of the problems. Hostler was trying to make a pocket passer out of him. You never saw those bootleg roll outs to VD, because hostler did not understand the niners. His plan was run a dive when there is 8 in the box on first. Throw a little 2 yard pass that is dropped by jackson on second, and don’t proect smith/dilfer/hill/weinke on third when there is a 7 man blitz. i mean look at this stat for a moment. Record when gore gets 16 or less carries, 0-10, when he gets 17 or more, 5-1. GIVE FRANK THE BAll. And that one lost was because our qb was chris weinke. Lets hope martz can change all of this.

According to the comminsioner of the nfl, 104 people retired last year. 7 due to age, and the rest because of Patrick Willis

by montasmob69 on May 2, 2008 7:56 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Misunderstood stats...

Even if they had given Gore the ball more last year, it’s highly unlikely it would have made them THAT much more likely to win. I’m almost willing to say that if they had given the ball to Gore more in those 10 losses, it may have taken some away, but it would have look more like: When Gore gets the rock 16 times or less, 0-5, and when he gets the ball more, 5-6. There were times the 49ers abandoned the run, not because they wanted to throw (or even because the HAD to), it was more because the run wasn’t working anymore. Think about it, even with 8 men in the box, they couldn’t get a passing game going. There is no way in the world that a running game can dominate for 60 minutes.

by sfgfan on May 2, 2008 9:02 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeah

I always think it’s funny when analysts say “They have to get him the ball 20-25 times in this game. They haven’t won a game where the didn’t do that.”

It’s a logical fallacy. If a team has a runner like Gore, the gameplan is most likely ALWAYS to get him the ball 20-25 times in the game, but it’s not winning that is dependent of him getting the ball, like analysts so often make it sound. It is him getting the ball that is dependent on the team being in a position to win.

You can’t get Gore the ball 20-25 times in a game you’re losing by 3 touchdowns after the first half. If you force it because 20-25 carries = win, then you’ll still lose. You have a bad record in games he doesn’t get his touches because you were in a position to lose to begin with.

Also, like you said, the running game has to be working on a given day to begin with.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 2, 2008 11:17 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeah, the analysts really are just getting the cause and effect backwards.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on May 2, 2008 1:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

well remember

In the first game, he lead a final drive resulting in a td, which he should have thrown in battle did not fumble in. Week 2 he had a decent game. Then in week 3, he had 210 yards and the int was not to signifigant. But he lead a couple drives down field and had a pretty solid game. Look, i’m not saying smith will be joe or steve, because he won’t. i just don’t think he has been give enough time or much of a chance to succeed in the nfl. Give him this year. He will have better WR, a better ol with staley getting better and better, a stud defense so he won’t have to mount rediculous come backs, a TE who someday may be the best in the nfl, and an OC who understands how to execute the passing offense to perfection.

According to the comminsioner of the nfl, 104 people retired last year. 7 due to age, and the rest because of Patrick Willis

by montasmob69 on May 2, 2008 8:02 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

I agree with monta...

1. Give GORE the DAMN BALL and 2. Alex has not had the luxury to be coached by one coordinator like most QB mentioned and deemed busts (Leaf, Vick, Grossman…etc) for two consecutive years… I thought Norv did a good job until he left and Hostler took over…. now with Martz I see good things in Smith’s future.. but don’t expect an MVP Nominations if his coordinators keep shuffling in and out.

Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.

by bayboy on May 2, 2008 8:59 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Sad part is...

... Martz may only be in Smith’s life for one year, much like his predecessors.

by sfgfan on May 2, 2008 9:11 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Defense makes it so he doesn't have to mount a comeback?

I don’t think the 49ers fell behind last year because of lack of defense. Their defense was a VERY respectable unit, and was especially so when the game was close. The reason the team fell behind, and the SAME reason the team is likely to fall behind again this year, is the lack of offense. You site better WRs and a better OL, and I say that everyone will have to wait and see. One man, Staley, does not an entire offensive line make. Coming into last year, fresh off of a 1600+ rushing season for Gore, the offensive line was thought to be a strong point of the team. It didn’t quite work out that way for a variety of reason (including but not limited to age, injury, and just plain sucktitude).

Smith has been given plenty of opportunity to do something with himself. Michael Vick was always behind a shoddy offensive line and NEVER had a decent WR to throw to. All he had was a converted basketball player and a decent running back behind him. Antonio Bryant, Arnaz Battle, and even Jackson were all probably better than the WRs that Vick had to work with and that’s not to mention the talent difference on the offensive line. I’m not comparing the two. I’m just saying that after two or three seasons in the NFL, you’d think that Smith would have an idea on how to “work with what you’ve got.”

Again, I’m a big Smith supporter and I’m not ready to call him a bust. I’m just saying that it’s not that incredulous to say that all he’s shown to fans (and the front office) is that he sucks for a variety of reasons. You say give him this year. What if he sucks again and Martz leaves? Give him another year? When does the cycle end?

by sfgfan on May 2, 2008 9:10 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm all for giving Smith 2008

But if he doesn’t improve it’s time to move on.

by methodrampage on May 2, 2008 9:14 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

+1

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on May 2, 2008 4:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Absolutely

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 2, 2008 5:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Man that's a sweet signature...

that has to be the best one yet.

Just a friendly reminder bro, it’s easier to follow the convo if you reply to the comment to which you are refering. : )

"To know clearly what pleases the world is but a brief dream." --Machiavelli

by jfainsf49 on May 2, 2008 8:30 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

now that's was pretty dumb

I told you to reply to the response to which you were refering and I forgot to reply to yours. Stupid me. My bad.

"To know clearly what pleases the world is but a brief dream." --Machiavelli

by jfainsf49 on May 2, 2008 8:31 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

EPIC FAIL

Go sit in the corner for 45 minutes and think about what you’ve done.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on May 2, 2008 1:05 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

All right

I think it’s one more year. No more. It took manning 4 years, and everyone thought he would be way better than smith. Most thought smith was a QB who was 6-10 talent. He was a the top QB in a WEAK qb class and draft. I believe that smith could be as good as David Guarrad. Simlar styles. It’s either one and done or 5=10 more, no more wait another year.

According to the comminsioner of the nfl, 104 people retired last year. 7 due to age, and the rest because of Patrick Willis

by montasmob69 on May 2, 2008 11:28 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs


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