Vernon Davis
EDITOR'S NOTE 9:55AM - After a second subpar outing, grumblings about Vernon Davis are picking up. This Fan Post comes at a perfect time so i'm moving it to the front.
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In the third year of "The Freak", as he is constantly called, what do you guys think about this man? He was hyped quite a bit when he was drafted, as his athletic talent, speed, and strength had people thinking he'd be putting up Tony Gonzales-type stats in no time. However, things haven't quite worked out that way.
There is no denying his athletic ability, but is this TE all he's cracked up to be? He's accumulated 509 yrds/4 TDs, and 265/3 TDs in two full seasons with the 49ers. The stats may not reflect his true potential, though, as he has been plagued with injuries (he only played in 10 games last year!).
When is it time, though, to think that maybe the potential scouts saw in him won't be realized? I realize this is a bit early to be discussing if he's a bust, but I would like to discuss if maybe he isn't all that he's touted to be. He seems to drop quite a few catchable balls and is known for numerous penalty miscues. From what I've seen, he doesn't seem to be a fantastic run blocker, although I could be wrong about that. Are his stats not reflecting his abilities because of being covered so well or being double teamed? Is he not being utilized enough as a receiving threat in the offense?
After this year, he will have 2 years remaining on his contract. Do you think his stats will get better as he realizes his potential, or do you think he is overvalued, and won't be worth re-signing at the more-likely-than-not high asking price when his contract is up?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Perfect timing
I wanted to post something about our so-called freak, so I think I’ll move this to the front page.
On the blocking, I’ve read he’s actually fairly good in run-blocking, but I don’t know for sure what the general consensus is.
As for Vernon Davis as a whole, I definitely need to think that one over.
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by Fooch on Sep 22, 2008 9:52 AM PDT 0 recs
Run-blocking
I think Davis is a lot better run blocker than many give him credit for. He’s by no means anything like the pure run-blocking tight ends, but he’s learning to use his strength(s) to his advantage. I think in the long run by Gore where he slashed back to the right and almost took it to the house, Davis stayed with his blocker and (while there may have been a slight jersey grab, he didn’t let it look too obvious) gave the defensive player a shove backwards keeping the lane free for Gore.
by sfgfan on
Sep 22, 2008 10:07 AM PDT
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yea
I heard during the broadcast of the game last week that he’s pretty good, but had never heard that before. I tried to pay more attention to that aspect of his game this week, but saw nothing that impressed me or made me think that he’s a poor blocker either.
by sam23 on
Sep 22, 2008 2:55 PM PDT
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I think about it this way. He had a good number of balls thrown his way and he simply dropped them. If he catches those balls, we may not have this discussion. I think he’s great, but he’s still learning so much in terms of making himself a real legit threat until he can prove it with his hands
Formerly known as phutmasterflex
by PHUT! on Sep 22, 2008 9:57 AM PDT 0 recs
Davis and O'Sullivan
I think that O’Sullivan has fired a shot to Davis down the field in each of the first three games. The result each time was about the same: a ball that missed. Those misses were probably not all O’Sullivan’s fault, and it probably wasn’t all Davis’ fault, either.
I think the two of them will eventually get into synch and hit on those types of plays. It’s not like O’Sullivan is missing him by a whole lot (considering Davis’ speed). The timing between those two will come. Davis is already pretty good with the ball once he gets it, he and the QB just need to work on getting the ball there.
Did anyone see how fast he blew by the defensive players after that screen pass? He has some ridiculous speed and explosiveness to boot.
by sfgfan on Sep 22, 2008 10:10 AM PDT 0 recs
i imagine vernon davis’s sink is littered with broken dishes.
by ryo1 on Sep 22, 2008 10:14 AM PDT 0 recs
that was awesome!!
when will the Kenny Thomas Reign of Terror end?!!??
by diehardkingsfan5 on
Sep 22, 2008 7:33 PM PDT
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I don't get it
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 22, 2008 9:23 PM PDT
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he drops the dishes
just like he drops passes.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on
Sep 23, 2008 8:17 AM PDT
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"Freaking" waste of talent
Ball dropped at the goal line; drops a certain long- TD afer beating the defender. He easliy could have had 2 TD’s. Instead, he has 2 more drops and JTO rightfully looks elsewhere. So far, VD’s been a waste of amazing talent. Don’t get blinded by what he might do to help the team with his freakish talents. Talent isn’t worth anything unless he produces. I’ll take Delaine Walker and every other guy out there who isn’t dropping passes regularly than VD at this point. This should be his final season to prove whether he wants to stay in the league or be another waste of talent most everyone else would kill for.
by StepUp on Sep 22, 2008 10:15 AM PDT 0 recs
screen plays
Certainly reasonable, but would you accept the point that when he gets the ball on those little short passes he is usually able to make something good happen? I think the reason people get excited is that he is usually able to make nice things happen when he gets the ball in his hands.
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by Fooch on
Sep 22, 2008 10:28 AM PDT
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So let’s see some more screen plays! However, as we have seen so far after 3 games, Martz is hardly 1-dimensional. If VD can only handle screens, then he too, is 1-dimensional. With the talent he has, I think we should ecpect a bit more than that.
by StepUp on
Sep 22, 2008 10:53 AM PDT
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seems like vd should be catching passes in space where he isn’t likely to get smacked right away. he seems scared going into the secondary when a deep safety might be lurking.
i haven’t seen enough of his blocking to know how good he is there.
by tenjay on Sep 22, 2008 10:51 AM PDT 0 recs
ooh I forgot about that
he does seem to shy away from balls in traffic, maybe afraid of the big hit, gets alligator arms, etc. That needs to improve if he wants to be a star.
Still defending Rich Aurilia, and the Niners' classic unis
by wjackalope on
Sep 22, 2008 10:53 AM PDT
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my thoughts
from what we’ve seen and read, it seems like VD is a pretty slow learner. He obviously takes longer than average to pick up an offense/playbook/etc. Consider that he has also had a different coordinator every year, and how that might effect him.
Clearly he needs to improve his hands – he does drop more passes than he should. I’m willing to look past that and say that even with the occasional drop he can still be a very valuable player.
He is great once he gets the ball in his hands – strong and fast. Different that most any TE I’ve ever seen. He now needs to use those talents more effectively. It seems that he doesn’t run the crispest routes and I would bet he runs the wrong one sometimes. With more time in the same offense, I think he’ll improve that a lot. He’s a slow learner anyway, and with a different offense every year, it must be hard for him. I’ve also read that he’s a good blocker, so that’s a plus. He’s great with the ball in his hands, that’s a plus. It’s early in the season – I think in a few more games we’ll see him picking up the offense better, getting open more, and seeing more passes come his way. He may never be as good as his talents would suggest, but I think he can be very solid with flashes of great.
Still defending Rich Aurilia, and the Niners' classic unis
by wjackalope on Sep 22, 2008 10:52 AM PDT 0 recs
VD may very well be a slow learner. However, even when he finds himself in the right place at the right time, he still can’t make the catch. This has nothing to do with knowing the offense or having multiple coordinators. It’s what he does when he has the opportunities. He could have had 2 easy TD’s!
by StepUp on
Sep 22, 2008 10:58 AM PDT
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he does drop more passes than he should. I’m willing to look past that and say that even with the occasional drop he can still be a very valuable player.
I can think of one specific former 49er that this just about perfectly describes. He also goes by his initials.
I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said, from your comment above about him shying away – I’ve seen him alligator passes that would make Brandon Lloyd say, “Come on, man!” – but I also think that the drops themselves, longterm, aren’t as big a concern as we like to make them out to be, that he is obviously a very slow learner, that he’s more than effective once he actually does have the ball, and that this combination should suggest that he may never fulfill his potential, but that he almost certainly will flash it more and more often as he gets more comfortable.
That said, I’ve been thinking these same things since he was drafted, and I don’t know how I long I can wait without changing a few of these tunes. I’ll give him this year, at least, to encourage me. He doesn’t have to prove anything, but I do want to see something greater than what I have.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Sep 22, 2008 2:15 PM PDT
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That said, I don’t mind simply having a good blocking TE, as long as we actually know what he is and isn’t bringing in the passing game, a good blocking TE is just fine with me.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Sep 22, 2008 2:16 PM PDT
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a good blocking TE
getting drafted 6th overall and being the highest paid TE in the game is NOT just fine with me.
by sam23 on
Sep 22, 2008 3:04 PM PDT
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Well...
… he is what he is. He couldn’t help where he was picked, so if that’s what he turns out to be, then that’s what he turns out to be. Sure, you can be disappointed in the team, but I’d certainly be happy if his role is eventually established. Right now, there’s just all kind of hope flying everywhere, and it would be nice to see that settle down with him finally having a set role.
by sfgfan on
Sep 22, 2008 3:06 PM PDT
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He is what he is?
If all he is is a player with a boatload of unfillfilled talent eating up an incredible amount of cap space, then give the job to someone who will produce consistently in more facets of the TE position than he has so far. Ask VD if he thinks he deserved to by picked #6 – I suspect he thought he shoulda been #1. He got his money and he isn’t producing. Go ask Shawn Alexander and the ‘Hawks how that worked out. How’s Portis doing over in ’DC? This game is too fickle these days to hang with someone not willing or able to get his act together.
by StepUp on
Sep 22, 2008 3:17 PM PDT
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Well, it’s not like his playmaking in the field is going to get any worse. I assume he’s always going to be at least a moderate reciever who can break a game once he has the ball in his hands, which is what he is right now. If you combine that with honest high end blocking, that’s not a tight end to bat your eyes at. You’re not going to get that in the 6th round.
I’m not saying “I’ll be happy if next year Vernon Davis is only blocking!” I’m saying a blocking tight end is really an undervalued thing in these discussions, and Davis already makes enough of an impact in the passing game as a tight end that if we determine he’s just never going to get better as a receiver that he’s still pretty good.
It’s kind of the difference between being disappointed because a guy isn’t as good as you think he should be and being disappointed because a guy isn’t good. If it turns out that Davis’s main strength as a player is blocking, he’s still a very good player with his secondary skill-sets. He’s not the player we thought he would be, but I don’t think that should determine his value.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Sep 22, 2008 3:29 PM PDT
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Using that line of thinking is dangerous in pro sports. These guys have big egos and think more of their skills than perhaps coaches and fans do. Ask yourself this: “Can VD accept that he is not in the Gates/Gonzalez category, and only just a decent to good player?” Will he be a disruption? Will he accept no extension on his contract; and more likely, a far lesser amount, making him even potentially less happy?
I think at this point going forward, his value will be determined by his production. Look at Joey Harrington, at Byron Leftwich, at David Carr (and soon to be Alex Smith). Did they produce at their high draft positions? No. Did they turn into only decent players able to marginally assist their latest teams? Kinda. How about Robert Gallery? Think he’s looking at his 2nd big payday? A lot is expected of the high picks, and those that don’t produce at the level they were picked at, are deemed busts. How many can lose that “bust” tag and go on to productive careers? Not many. Unless VD turns into something he hasn’t shown to be so far…
by StepUp on
Sep 22, 2008 3:57 PM PDT
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you guys
have pretty much nailed the two sides of a debate that is much bigger than VD. interesting discussion, I can see both sides, and can see why the management and coaching staff stick with their “wait and see” approach to VD.
by sam23 on
Sep 22, 2008 4:08 PM PDT
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You're missing the point of it all.
I think what HTS (or at least I) am saying is that people are so infatuated with calling players busts and such, and ignore the fact that they may actually be making a contribution to the team. I think that if Walker were starting, Gore would have a few tougher plays to gain positive yardage on. Ever wonder why the coaching staff puts Bajema in instead of the “better” TE when they go two TE or goal line?
Players have egos, yes they do. Players also get silenced by their lack of performance. If all Davis turns out to be is an average pass-catching TE that has a lot of blocking ability, then that’s what he turns out to be. He’ll have to learn to accept that role and be a team player or he’ll have a hard time holding onto a job. Not too many people feel like giving 27 or 28 year old football players a second chance if said player is demanding a salary that is equivalent to the top 10 at their position.
In saying this, though, I’m not saying the 49ers should continue to pay Davis what they’re paying him now if all he ends up being is a pass-catching Billy Bajema. What I AM saying is that, for now, the 49ers already have that money invested in him and it’s not like he’s showing no signs of hope. I think they definitely stick with him until the end of his current contract, and let his play dictate if he gets retained or not. Being called a bust or not has little to do with whether or not he’s going to get re-signed. If he can help this team and is reasonable in his asking price, then I don’t see why they wouldn’t bring him back.
On a side note, I think what you’re referring to is a player who definitely overvalues himself in regard to what’s available. While Davis DOES show some prima donna tendancies, he has yet to hit free agency, so no one really knows how he intends to value himself in regard to the rest of the league. Heck, I don’t even think anyone else knows how to value Davis in regard to the rest of the league, yet.
by sfgfan on
Sep 22, 2008 4:15 PM PDT
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A fitting description...
One article described the Disease as having hands that are as hard as his eight-pack abs.
by Rishi on Sep 22, 2008 10:57 AM PDT 0 recs
VD
First of all, Davis is not a good run blocker. He is terrific. Set up your DVR one time to watch a couple of the most boring run plays in the game. It’s on those plays that you’ll see Davis taking a linebacker, DE or even an interior lineman completely out of the play. He loves the physical aspect of blocking, and you can see it in the ferocity of his blocks.
Secondly, Davis isn’t very good at finding the seams in coverage. That, I think, is his biggest weakness. He’s an average route runner at best, and that’s not a good thing in the Mike Martz offense. A lot of his “drops” and a lot of JTO’s “poor throws” in his direction are due to him being just a little bit out of position.
The Martz offense is heavily reliant on the ball being delivered to a spot, and the receiver being there under it, and Davis’ strength as a pass-catcher is watching the ball all the way out of the QB’s hands and into his own. This is great in the West Coast offense that Davis was drafted into. Unfortunately, a lot of the deep balls in this scheme are thrown well before the receiver turns back. The fact that Davis isn’t always in the right spot, and the fact that he likes to catch balls with his body mean that a lot of these potential connections look like broken plays.
He is a TE, though. The fans like to forget that “WR” was nowhere near his name when he was drafted. His route-running, timing and feel for the field will improve as he spends more time under Mike Martz.
With proper coaching, I think there’s still plenty of time for VD to develop into the specimen that we’d all hoped he’d become. As long as Martz is that coach, I think he’ll get it.
by shlecko on Sep 22, 2008 11:43 AM PDT 0 recs
TE v. WR
No-one is criticizing his TE/run-blocking skills per se. There’s penty of guys in the league who can run-block at the TE position. Few have the “skills” VD has in the passing game. Of a huge concern is how long do you wait for VD to develop and use his “skills?” route-running, timing and feel for the field has nothing to do when he drops pass after pass. His drop at the goal line was with him looking directly at JTO. His drop on the bomb was of a perfecly placed throw he had no business dropping.
So far, he’s had plenty of coaching. Was it the right coaching? Or was it the player?
by StepUp on
Sep 22, 2008 12:08 PM PDT
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interesting
you certainly provide me with some optimism
by sam23 on
Sep 22, 2008 3:03 PM PDT
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From what I saw J.T. O’Sullivan threw him a very catchable ball and he let it fall through his hands. Not only that, he shyed away from completing a pass against the Seahawks, and it looked like he was scared of catching it because he saw the guys coming in for the hit. I’ll never doubt his athleticism, but he needs to work on his hands before I give him ANYMORE praise.
by Ninjames on Sep 22, 2008 12:12 PM PDT 0 recs
I’m tired of people pointing to that play. The ball was going to be just a yard or 2 too far. Nobody catches that ball, the only thing that may be happens is you lay out for it and get seriously injured.
That wasn’t shying away, that was using his head.
by Kraut182 on
Sep 22, 2008 12:28 PM PDT
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meh
I seriously doubt a professional football player thinks about what could cause him injury and weighs the pros and cons like that while the ball is in the air. Or maybe, thats his problem. I think he chickened out.
by sam23 on
Sep 22, 2008 3:01 PM PDT
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I just watched it again, and then again. I don’t see him getting injured if he played that ball correctly.
Sorry, but he shyed away… He still has a lot of time to prove himself and I hope he gets it done. I have high hopes for Mr. Davis, formerly “The Freak.”
by Ninjames on
Sep 22, 2008 8:22 PM PDT
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I think alot of why I am starting to tire of waiting for VD is his cocky attitude. It’s good to be cocky to a certain extent, but show us something before you talk about how you are one of the top TE’s in the game. Did anyone else notice how he reacted after catching his first and only reception? He looked like a Seattle Sehawk linebacker celebrating a tackle. I think he should hang around Issac Bruce as much as possible to learn how to be humble and how to catch the damn ball..
Simply by pulling on both ends, Patrick Willis can stretch diamonds back into coal
by 49erLou on Sep 22, 2008 12:47 PM PDT 0 recs
Well
I am not going to fault him for not putting up numbers with the Alex Smith-led niner offense. Nor will I judge him for mediocre performances in 2 games with JTO.
I think it will be clear where he stands after this year (assuming he doesn’t get injured)
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Sep 22, 2008 2:05 PM PDT 0 recs
I'm inclined to think he's a bust
It may be early to say so, but other super athletic tight ends, Gonzalez, Gates, etc.. have wasted almost no time in making an impact for their teams. I cant imagine that not one of the 3 offensive coordinators has been able to devise a way to use him well. Like I said during one of the game threads its shocking how Vernon vitrually disappears in the red zone when that should probably be where he excels.
by sam23 on Sep 22, 2008 2:58 PM PDT 0 recs
We’ll see if he’s a bust by the end of this year.
If he hadn’t been picked #6 – say a 3rd rounder, he’d of been fighting for his srating job if not on his 2nd team by now. But teams don’t like to admit mistakes. Go ask that old man across the bay if he’s ever whiffed on a pick. Of course, I doubt he’d remember anyway…
by StepUp on
Sep 22, 2008 3:21 PM PDT
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So....
… what you’re saying is he shouldn’t be the 49ers starter? Who then, pray tell, should it be?
by sfgfan on
Sep 22, 2008 4:15 PM PDT
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Walker maybe?
Walker hasn’t done a whole ton but I’d imagine that’s who people wouldn’t mind seeing start. It’s funny because Walker also has flashed talent but never been a big producer (of course it’s not like he’s getting the playing time to prove it yet). Anyways, just a though.
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by Fooch on
Sep 22, 2008 4:37 PM PDT
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Walker
I don’t think Walker is anywhere near the run-blocker that Davis is, and I think that’s his biggest issue. It says a whole lot when the team brings in Bajema to play the second tight end in obvious run situations. Heck, I think I’ve even seen them have Keasey line up as the second tight end in those situations more than Walker.
by sfgfan on
Sep 22, 2008 4:47 PM PDT
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Starter?
Maybe the question is not who starts…maybe it should be what do we do with the starter? Maybe you use VD as the 5th option in pass plays and use his seemingly superior pass-blocking skills. It appears painfully obvious VD can’t catch the ball.
He is hurting the team when used as a receiver!
Use Walker as the pass-catching TE until either VD figures out how to sneak stickum onto the field or the team finds a better performing all-around TE.
by StepUp on
Sep 22, 2008 8:35 PM PDT
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Vernon has similar hands to a crab...
…Exhibit G knows what I’m talking about.
when will the Kenny Thomas Reign of Terror end?!!??
by diehardkingsfan5 on Sep 22, 2008 7:36 PM PDT 0 recs
A young T.O. used to have a lot of drops
He still drops a lot of balls, but he got good enough to catch most of them and makes a lot of big plays. Hopefully, Davis will develop his hands and learn to catch. He reminds me of Shockey. He celebrates every stupid catch he makes and drops a lot of balls. But like Shockey, he’s a great blocker and he has the ability to run over people if he actually catches the ball.
by wickedmpulse on Sep 22, 2008 8:35 PM PDT 0 recs
Hopefully...
… unlike Shockey, he’ll find a way to stay healthy.
by sfgfan on
Sep 23, 2008 9:17 AM PDT
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Sorry, get real...
Look, there is a deep-rooted lack of fundamental ability to catch a football with VD. He just never developed that core skill to jump, stride or twist his body into the right position at the right time, to catch or cradle an in-flight football.
People cite the alligator arms, and the bad routes (he rounds them, he doesn’t make sharp cuts) and these are spot on, but that’s only part of it. Haven’t we all observed even the opposite with him as well. Times when he seemingly jumps straight up but sort of has his arms fully extended horizontally, because the ball was throw 3 feet to his right or left. It’s like dude – here’s a big fat tip – try to jump, stride or leap to get your body as close as possible TO WHERE THE BALL WAS THROWN – this way you have less arm extension and better ability to focus on making sure you get your hands on that in-flight ball !!!
In all honesty he looks like a guy who played his first football at about age 20. I’ve read a few people have suggested he should have had 2 TDs if he hadn’t dropped those balls in the Detroit game and I completely agree. But that’s not all…
He also just generally seems to be unaware of the timing. There was a ball thrown in the first period down the middle at VD that the announcers glossed over saying it was a misfire by JTO – I say bull – a quality tight-end adjusts, leaps, pulls that in. This is another pattern we can see in VD on that play – it’s like 14 year old in a sandlot game. He’s the guy that runs real fast but when you throw to him he doesn’t realize he’s the target until after the ball whizzes by – so he flails his arms in the air and then looks around real quick like the pass was a bad throw. I’m telling you Tony Gonzales, Jason Witten, Eric Johnson, Antonio Gates – catch that ball every time. It’s sad, I’m sure he’s a great guy. It’s one thing to watch the drops by some of the guys on Detroit – for example the one guy that stretched out and dropped the 3rd down pass early (would’ve been a nice catch) – but you know what, VD wouldn’t even know how to stretch out like that.
On Walkers TD catch, if that was VD it would have hit him the back of the head or maybe gone threw his hands and stuck in his face mask (wasn’t that in a movie).
Ouch, I know I’m brutal – but for what they pay him…total bust. And for the record, good blocking tight-ends are a dime a dozen in the NFL.
by SoquelFan on Sep 23, 2008 1:34 PM PDT 0 recs
Fallacy
I dont know where this perception of being a good blocker came from..? maybe i missed something.. So far VD is about as promising as ones sex life, after contracting VD. I see plenty of potential in him but i also see bums on the street and believe they can take a shower, get a job and turn their lives around.. until his arms grow, his ego shrinks and his motor runs at red line, i think he is a bust
J GO
by youngbuckeroo on Sep 23, 2008 2:45 PM PDT 0 recs
















