DE/OLB with the 1st round pick

by Sebaz49 on Jan 26, 2009 11:22 AM PST

Over the past few weeks, I've read a lot about the Niners going after a 4-3 DE in the 1st round and converting him to a pass rushing OLB. Everette Brown is a recent favorite, but people have gone through the whole list. Brian Orakpo, Michael Johnson, Aaron Maybin and Larry English have all popped up, amongst others. Maybe I just haven't paid to much attention in the past, but is this a proven way of getting good OLBs? I know Dallas's Ware was a DE in college, but is it really that common that people want to use a #10 pick on a guy who might not adjust to a new position well.

I guess I'm just not completely sold on the fact that A) we need to upgrade at OLB and B) that the OLB position is the problem with the pass rush, and not the DLine. So I'm just wondering why people feel some of these guys will actually do better than who is already on the roster or can be drafted later.

And for the DE to OLB type of player, I got a guy in mind. 6-5, 240. His senior year he had 58 tackles, 21 QB pressures, 4 deflections, 10.5 sacks, 19.5 tfl and 14 hurries. And he wouldn't cost a #10. Sound good? (Anyone know who I'm talkin about?)

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.

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DE to OLB conversion.

The reason people have been talking about converting a 4-3 DE into a 3-4 OLB is because that’s a common way to find a player that fits a mold that normally isn’t fitted.

Wait, what? In my opinion (and of course I could be wrong, as I am here and there), 3-4 OLB is probably one of the hardest defensive positions to fill (off the top of my head, I can only think of a true 3-4 NT being tougher) as the player has to maintain a size that can take on offensive tackles (usually the LT) while still being athletic enough to drop back into coverage.

The size issue is the reason why people tend to look at 4-3 DEs. Colleges have tons of under-sized 4-3 DEs that may be “just right” (in size) to play 3-4 OLB. College linebackers can often run a bit smaller as well, which makes them better fits inside in a 3-4.

Again, I’m not saying I’m correct or anything. This is just the way I understand the conversion. I’m interested in what others think, as well.

Lastly, I think the team definitely needs an upgrade at OLB. Haralson showed some life this past season, but he’s far from being what the team needs, at least so far. Lawson can’t be counted on as a pass rush threat, as he seems to have been groomed to play the strong-side OLB, usually shadowing the opposing TE.

Does this mean that I don’t think the defensive line doesn’t shoulder some of the blame? Of course not. If you ask me, though, whether I would sign an OLB (like Suggs) and try to draft an NT or sign an NT (Haynesworth) and try to draft an OLB, I would definitely go with the latter. I just think finding an NT is that hard to find.

by sfgfan on Jan 26, 2009 1:18 PM PST reply actions

In general

I understand the reasoning based on size. But there have to be some college OLBs that are big enough to play in a 3-4, I mean there are 3-4 Ds in college. I know you’re basically moving the guy a few feet outside and back from where he played in college, but that could be an awkward and unnatural position that a given player may not get used to. Maybe I’m just way off and this is the best way to get an OLB for a 3-4, but I would think a guy that played OLB would be better. Just quickly looking online I get this list of OLBs:

Clint Sintim, Virginia – Height: 6-3 Weight: 254 – Projected Round (2009): 1-2
Brian Cushing, USC – Height: 6-3 Weight: 243 – Projected Round (2009): 1-2
Clay Matthews, USC – Height: 6-3 Weight: 246 – Projected Round (2009): 2-3
Tyrone McKenzie, South Florida – Height: 6-1 Weight: 244 – Projected Round (2009): 2-3

These guys seem like about the right size. Not all of them have put up huge sack/pass rush numbers, but that could be due to how they’re used. (I didn’t put Aaron Curry cause he’ll probably be gone by #10)

Again, maybe the smaller DEs make the best 3-4 OLBs and I just don’t know better, but it just seems a little funny to me.

by Sebaz49 on Jan 28, 2009 6:44 AM PST up reply actions

Size is only one aspect...

Just because a players body type fits the description for the position doesn’t mean he’s a good candidate. Playing OLB in a 4-3 in college is way different than playing OLB in a 3-4. For instance and OLB like Brian Cushing in my opinion would not be a good OLB in a 3-4. I’m sure a lot of people have seen him play at USC and would agree he’s better suited to play ILB in a 3-4. Aaron Curry is another example of this, he play’s similar to AJ Hawk, who will be playing ILB in Green Bay’s new 3-4 alignment.

I would rather have a pass rush specialist like Everette Brown, Aaron Maybin, or Larry English as a 3-4 OLB.

by 49er4life on Jan 28, 2009 8:45 AM PST up reply actions

I do see your guys point

and someone who’s been a good pash rusher from a 4-3 DE spot would basically be doing the same thing as a 3-4 OLB. But you also have outside run support (with no OLB support since that would be him now) and pass coverage to deal with, and that seems like it would be harder to teach and be good at.

But it is slowly making more sense in my head why this DE/OLB transition works. I guess I’m just a little thickheaded and slow and need it laid out point by point… which I guess was the original point of this fanpost.

by Sebaz49 on Jan 28, 2009 9:19 AM PST up reply actions

I think...

… teaching a 4-3 DE to drop into a zone is a lot easier than teaching a 4-3 LB how to blitz and take on NFL defensive tackles. While both tasks may be a bit difficult, teaching coverage is probably easier than teaching pass rushing technique, especially against guys who are making almost double digit yearly figures to protect the QB.

by sfgfan on Jan 29, 2009 9:16 AM PST up reply actions

I think that of the three you listed....

… Sintim may be the only one that has the “size” scouts like for a pass-rushing OLB. The other three would either play strong-side (coverage OLB) or maybe even scoot into the one of the ILB positions, depending on their physical tools.

by sfgfan on Jan 29, 2009 9:15 AM PST up reply actions

The best way to think of 3-4 defense is actually a 5-2. Starts with an immovable object at NT in the middle, two DTs, then two ends that can rush the QB and contain the edges forcing the action back to the middle toward the big boys and the two traditional LBs or drop back to cover the flats.

In fact, as I understand, it is was called a 5-2 until recruiters at the college level changed the name because recruits would rather play “end” than “tackle” or rather play “LB” than “DE”. So and athletic DE who is a great rusher and can play his responsibilities on hte run and in coverage is what you’re looking for. Not really a linebacker who can blitz.

Btw, Are you talking about Stryker Sulak, DE, Missouri?

by briandean on Jan 26, 2009 3:10 PM PST reply actions

That's were I get lost

So and athletic DE who is a great rusher and can play his responsibilities on hte run and in coverage is what you’re looking for. Not really a linebacker who can blitz.

I would think a blitzing linebacker is easier to find than a DE that can cover.

And I’m disappointed more people haven’t played name the DE/OLB. All I’ll say for now is it’s not Sulak, but I was surprised how close his stat sheet was.

by Sebaz49 on Jan 28, 2009 6:51 AM PST up reply actions

I would think a blitzing linebacker is easier to find than a DE that can cover.

That’s true. But that linebacker is probably 230 lbs and not adept at taking on blockers in the running game.

by briandean on Jan 28, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions

Haynesworth in FA and then a tackle or DB in the 1st round of the draft sounds good to me. Cal’s Follet should be available in the 2nd or 3rd round and he’s the rare college OLB who has played a 3-4

"It’s a hobby of mine. Kind of like collecting your fingernail clippings or pooping in jars." -olympic mike

by sam23 on Jan 26, 2009 11:20 PM PST reply actions

Haynesworth

I think everyone in the league and their momma want Haynesworth on their team. I’ve even read some 4-3 teams might be interested. As I’ve said for weeks now, as long as the coaching staff feels he’ll commit to the team and play at a top level, I’m fine with them persuing him. I’m just worried that he’ll get his big payday and then sit on his fat … the whole time he’s here. So those are my problems with Haynesworth, he’ll be hard to get, and expensive, and will he play as hard once he’s paid.

And I’d be happy with Follett early on day 2. I’m just worried he might be a little undersized at 6-1, 231. But it hasn’t seemed to stop him so far (though I heard the senior bowl wasn’t that great for him), so maybe he’s just the little OLB engine that could.

by Sebaz49 on Jan 28, 2009 6:59 AM PST up reply actions

Why waste a draft pick on an unproven defensive player when you have Haynesworth (who is worth the money) out there and Julius Peppers who wants to play in a 3-4 and is a FA. If you dont believe me with the unproven Defensive players…ask STL and KC if they are wanting their money back on Chris Long and Glenn Dorsey.
Pay the money and get a proven defensive player that can make an impact NOW! We can still win with a subpar offense. But Defense is going to get us to the playoffs. If you dont believe me…look at this years playoffs. You got 3 of the top 4 Defenses playing in their respective Championships. Steelers, Ravens and Eagles.

I’ve suggested moving up and gettin Maclin from Mizzou. The kid has great hands, fast, returns punts, kickoffs and is great in the open field. Or even trading down and getting the same type of player in Percy Harvin

by IDOLIZEDbyALL on Jan 28, 2009 4:15 AM PST reply actions

Unproven

First lets talk about your examples:
Chris Long: 40 tackles 4 sacks
Glenn Dorsey: 46 tackles 1 sack

and the “proven talent” their rookie year (and career avg):
Peppers: 36 tackles 12 sacks (49.1 tackles 10.1 sacks)
Haynesworth: 30 tackles 1 sack (38.9 tackles 3.4 sacks)

Now yes Peppers was always a sack machine, and that’s rare to find, but Haynesworth wasn’t all that impressive either. Also, a better comparison would be Mario Williams. His rookie stats were 47 tackles and 4.5 stats, similar to Chris Long. In the 2 years since then he’s gotten 59 and 53 tackles and 14 and 12 sacks.

And in my opinion there is no such thing as proven talent. Randy Moss is one of the best recievers in the league, but he stunk it up in Oakland cause he didn’t want to be there (though it is Oakland and everything falls apart there). But you’re talking about a DT who’s only performed at high levels during contract years, and a life long DE who wants to become an OLB I guess. And getting both would kill a teams cap space.

Plus, if you look at the 3 teams you listed, most of their starters were drafted by that team. You build good, successful and consistent teams through the draft, not through high priced free agents.

And WR? You think the biggest need we have to address in the draft is WR? With Bruce, Morgan, Hill, Zeigler, Battle and Johnson still dangling I think our WRs are pretty much set. Maybe next year once we have a better idea of where Morgan, Hill and Zeigler stand and with a likely departure by Bruce, we might want to look into a WR, but this year, we have much more pressing needs, and we can’t fill them all with FA.

by Sebaz49 on Jan 28, 2009 7:35 AM PST up reply actions

If you're complaining about...

… unproven, using Peppers as an example of proven by wanting to move him to 3-4 OLB kind of contradicts your point. The guy has been a 4-3 DE for most (if not all) of his career so far, so he has very little “provenness” in a 3-4.

by sfgfan on Jan 29, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions

No Peppers, No Haynesworth

I don’t think Peppers is the guy we need because he’s too accustomed to being a 4-3 DE, and it’d be risky to project him to a new one.
I also don’t want Haynesworth because the guy’s production is significantly lower in non-contract years, and because he’ll have a ridiculous price tag. We’ve spent big money on that defense with JSmith and Clements.

Throwback unis? Yes. Throwback afros? YES!

by grantmp on Jan 31, 2009 5:26 AM PST up reply actions

Haynesworth

I don’t really have a problem spending money on Haynesworth. The guy’s got talent, and I don’t know what kind of influence Singletary will have on him, but there’s got to be a little something there. Singletary will at least keep him on his toes, I think.

I definitely don’t want Peppers, regardless about what scheme he says he’s more “comfortable” in.

by sfgfan on Feb 2, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions

Everette Brown v. Aaron Maybin v. Brian Orakpo

These are the four guys at the top of the draft that could possibly play 3-4 OLB in the NFL and are rated highly enough to take #10.

Mayock has the following rankings:

Defensive ends
Rk Player School
1 Brian Orakpo (can play OLB in 3-4) Texas
2 *Everette Brown (OLB) Florida State
3 Tyson Jackson LSU
4 *Aaron Maybin (OLB) Penn State
5 Larry English (OLB) Northern Illinois

Size:
Brown: 6-4, 250,
Orakpo: 6-4, 260,
Maybin: 6-4, ??? (220 some places, 240 others)

Thoughts?

by kiyoshi on Jan 28, 2009 10:28 AM PST reply actions

o_o_o_o_o_o

only brian orakpo and everette brown are worth our 10th pick. i personally like everette better because of his production. if both are gone when we are on the clock we should try to adress another needs like offensive tackle jason amith. maybe we can get rey maualuga!

Yadida

by Mill3R on Jan 31, 2009 11:31 PM PST up reply actions

Brown, Smith, Maualuga

I like those three and in that order. Brown has the most impressive arsenal of pass-rush moves I’ve seen for a while—somewhat reminiscent of Dwight Freeney. The way he’ll set a guy up and drop the spin move is seriously impressive (see @ 55 seconds) as is the duck-around-the-corner move (@ 2:55 and replay @ 3:15), which takes tremendous leg strength.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qXJJ14HL5EE
His production has improved each of the past three years, and he seems to have much more upside than Orakpo.
Smith would be a fine addition at RT, but I wonder whether we’d be able to find a road-grader type RT later in the draft.
Maualuga is really enticing because of the fact that he supports the run so well. His performance at the senior bowl solidified him as a legit top-15 player, and he seems like a guy that Singletary would get excited about because he does things the right way. The very fact that he showed up for the Senior Bowl tells you that he has nothing to hide. I can see him being a rush OLB initially on 1st down or taking up the TED LB spot over from Takeo Spikes right away. Barrows mentioned the one complication with picking Rey, though—namely, the fact that he’d have a higher $ figure than PWilly, which is a mildly concerning prospect.

Throwback unis? Yes. Throwback afros? YES!

by grantmp on Feb 1, 2009 9:08 AM PST up reply actions

Tyson Jackson - DE

I just posted this in our draft thread, but it fits here better…..

The more I read about him, the more I think he would be a great fit. He’s pretty much the same size as Balmer, ( at 6-5, 293 lbs), however, he’s a true DE and has experience getting to the quarterback and creating pressure. I’m not saying we pick him at #10, but trading down is an option and collecting more picks in the 2nd and third rounds.

Here’s an alternative scenario to the idea of picking guys like Orakpo and Brown at #10 to create more of a pass rush.

Trade down and pick Tyson Jackson later, which would give us atleast another 2nd rounder in return. Have him groomed at DE or play in a rotation (with McDonald, Balmer, Sopoaga)opposite Smith at DE or have Smith drop back and play more OLB and with the extra second round pick, we can always go after an OLB, with quite a few 3-4 prospects projected there.

The Eagles have two first round picks and could be interested in trading up to grab an OT at #10 that they desperately need.

by 49er4life on Jan 28, 2009 10:40 AM PST reply actions

Tyson Jackson?

I don’t think he’s the guy we need; we need a James Harrsion/Joey Porter/DeMarcus Ware type OLB. The line play hasn’t been that bad (though a double-team-demanding NT would be nice). Jackson would duplicate what Balmer/Sopoaga/McDonald give us at DE.

Throwback unis? Yes. Throwback afros? YES!

by grantmp on Jan 31, 2009 5:23 AM PST up reply actions

Not really,..

the difference is Jackson would be playing a position he is familiar with. The other three played DT in college and Jackson has proven at the college level he can get to the quarterback.

by 49er4life on Feb 2, 2009 8:56 AM PST up reply actions