Football Outsiders and the 49ers: Team Stats through Week 3
Welcome back for this week's look at how the 49ers' team stats rank in the NFL according to Football Outsiders (FO). As promised, I won't be describing FO's stats in detail here. If you don't know how any of the stats presented in this article are interpreted or how they were developed or why they're better than all other stats currently available online, check out my "Football Outsiders 101" treatment of these topics here. The only thing I'll remind you of this week is that opponent adjustments don't kick in until after this week's games. Therefore, like last week's, the stats I present today have been adjusted for all relevant factors (e.g., game situations) except what teams the Niners have played.
The Vikings game sure was a tough one to swallow. We've had 3 days to decompress and debate reasons for why our beloved 49ers lost, so I think, at this point, everything's been hashed out in that regard. From a statistical perspective, I'm curious to know how drastically the following developments affected the Niners' FO team rankings:
- The OFF's 0-fer on 3rd down
- The DEF's relatively good performance against Adrian Peterson
- The DEF's relatively good performance against "The F-Word" until that final drive
- Percy Harvin's kickoff return TD
- Andy Lee's inside-the-20 fails
So without further ado, let's check out the stats and rankings.
After the jump, I'll (a) present the overall team rankings; (b) break down the offensive and defensive rankings by down, distance, type of play, and field zone; and (c) break down the special teams rankings by FG, punt, kickoff, punt return, and kick return units...
OVERALL RANKINGS
Last week, the Niners were 18th in Total (TOT) DVOA, 27th in Offense (OFF) DVOA, 8th in Defense (DEF) DVOA, and 4th in Special Teams (ST) DVOA. Below is a table showing how they stack up after the MIN game (bold = top 8 in the NFL; italics = bottom 8):
|
Total |
Rank |
Offense |
Rank |
Defense |
Rank |
Special Teams |
Rank |
|
-13.2% |
22 |
-20.2% |
27 |
-9.0% |
10 |
-2.0% |
20 |
From Total DVOA, we can see that the 49ers dropped 4 spots. More alarming though is that they went from a positive Total DVOA of 1.0% to a negative Total DVOA of -13.2%. In other words, their performance in the MIN game took them from a slightly-better-than-average NFL team to a below-average one with respect to play-by-play efficiency. Compared to the other 3 teams in the NFC West, they're 9 spots lower than - and 20.0% less efficient than - the Seahawks, they're 2 spots higher than - and 6.2% more efficient than - the Cardinals, and they're 7 spots higher than - and 33.3% more efficient than - the Rams. Finally, they have the 2nd-lowest TOT DVOA among the nine 2-1 teams (only the Bears' is worse).
The OFF DVOA continues to be - well - offensive, dropping 4.9% from it's already-low level from last week. MIN has the 4th-ranked DEF DVOA, though, so opponent adjustments might improve the Niners' OFF DVOA once they kick in. Nevertheless, which aspect of the OFF is the culprit thus far? Here's a pass vs. run OFF DVOA breakdown:
|
Pass OFF |
Rank |
Run OFF |
Rank |
|
-2.4% |
26 |
-28.1% |
29 |
Turns out the Niners' OFF has been woefully inefficient regardless of whether they're passing or running. You'd think that if Raye is going to be so stubborn about running the ball, it'd be because the OFF is actually good at it. Yeah; not so much. In fact, if we compare these stats to last week's, we find that it's the pass OFF (6.8% better than last week) that's improving, not the run OFF (10.0% worse).
Unlike the OFF, the DEF continues to play efficiently, with their DVOA only dropping 0.9% after the MIN game. Yes, they dropped out of the top 8, but the 8th-highest DEF DVOA belongs to the Giants at -12.8%, so the Niners' DEF would have had to have played considerably better against MIN to stay in the top 8. Here's a pass vs. run DEF DVOA breakdown:
|
Pass DEF |
Rank |
Run DEF |
Rank |
|
8.0% |
14 |
-40.6% |
3 |
Based on these stats, it's pretty obvious that the run DEF is playing lights out. If only MIN would have called for a draw on the last play on Sunday; iIf only. Compared with last week's stats, the pass DEF dropped 1 spot (3.5% worse than last week), while the run DEF jumped 2 spots (2.4% better than last week). All in all, we can say that the DEF is carrying the OFF thus far this season.
Finally, what really accounts for the Niners' drastic drop in TOT DVOA is their nosedive on ST. Specifically, they fell 16 spots - and 8.4% - from a 4th-best ST DVOA of 6.4%. In other words, their ST DVOA nosedive accounted for nearly 60% of their TOT DVOA decline. I'll break down the various ST units a little later, so stay tuned to find out the cause of the nosedive. I think you can probably guess already, though.
DOWN-BY-DOWN BREAKDOWN
Just a reminder for this section: "Short" means 0-3 yards, "Mid" means 4-6 yards, and "Long" means 7 or more yards. Also, because teams go for it on 4th down only a small percentage of the time, such plays are included in the 3rd down DVOA stats. Below are the 49ers' Down, Distance, and Type-of-Play DVOA rankings through Week 3 (bold = top 8 in the NFL; italics = bottom 8):
|
1st Down |
||||
|
Offense |
Rank |
Defense |
Rank |
|
|
Overall |
9.7% |
15 |
-6.3% |
11 |
|
Pass |
9.5% |
22 |
18.6% |
17 |
|
Run |
15.4% |
9 |
-39.4% |
3 |
|
|
2nd Down |
|||
|
|
Offense |
Rank |
Defense |
Rank |
|
Overall |
-63.6% |
32 |
-28.5% |
6 |
|
Short |
-47.3% |
28 |
-12.9% |
14 |
|
Mid |
-71.1% |
29 |
88.0% |
32 |
|
Long |
-67.0% |
31 |
-67.7% |
2 |
|
Pass |
-56.5% |
31 |
-1.7% |
13 |
|
Run |
-58.4% |
31 |
-62.4% |
3 |
|
3rd Down |
||||
|
Offense |
Rank |
Defense |
Rank |
|
|
Overall |
-13.4% |
24 |
10.3% |
15 |
|
Short |
-10.9% |
21 |
28.7% |
24 |
|
Mid |
5.0% |
12 |
-72.5% |
6 |
|
Long |
-30.7% |
26 |
62.0% |
25 |
|
Pass |
32.8% |
14 |
4.1% |
12 |
|
Run |
-115.9% |
31 |
64.7% |
27 |
First, let's take a look at the DEF. Compared to last week's stats, the DEF DVOAs are pretty much the same for 1st and 2nd down. Third down is another story altogether. The Niners' D dropped from 9th to 15th overall on 3rd down by virtue of the MIN game, going from an above-average -14.5% DVOA to a below-average 10.3% DVOA. And where is the bulk of the decline? 3rd & Long of course. After Week 2, the DEF's 3rd & Long DVOA was an 8th-ranked -60.7%. After the MIN game, it's a 25th-ranked 62.0%. That's a penthouse-to-outhouse type of relocation if I ever saw one. It's only 1 game of course, and opponents adjustments might change things, but letting MIN convert 5 of 8 3rd & Long situations - all via the pass - will do that to your team stats.
One last thing I'll point out about the DEF's decline in 3rd Down DVOA is the effect of the last play. Being that it happened on 3rd & 3, it had no effect on the above riches-to-rags story on 3rd & Long. In other words, it was only 3rd & 32 for our intents and purposes, not for DVOA's. However, it did have an effect on the DEF's Overall 3rd Down DVOA. Specifically, although 3rd & 32 up 4 points with 8 seconds left in the game would be the easiest possible 3rd down situation for a DEF, 3rd & 3 up 4 points with 8 seconds left is not too far behind. So, based on the DEF's drop in 3rd down DVOA, we see that having an epic fail in a child's-play-easy situation can really take its toll; which is exactly what a valid measure of performance should show. According to NFL stats, that was a run-of-the-mill 32-yard TD pass, being just as important as a 32-yard TD pass thrown in the 1st quarter of a scoreless game. No matter the situation, SF's DEF would have taken the same 32-passing-yard hit on their NFL stats, which tells you nothing about how bad they were on that play. According to DVOA, on the other hand, taking the ultra-low-difficulty situation into account, we accurately see just how much of an epic fail the DEF committed on that 3rd down play.
OK, now for the OFF. It's pretty obvious from the table that 2nd down continues to be their Achilles Heel: no matter the 2nd down distance or type of play, the 49ers' OFF ranks no better than the 28th-most efficient OFF in the NFL through Week 3. Furthermore, they're at best 47.3% worse than the average NFL team on 2nd down no matter the distance or type of play. What's interesting to note - and what might be fodder for the "Let Shaun Hill throw the damn ball" supporters - is that the only 2nd-down stats that improved after the MIN game were 2nd & Long plays and 2nd-down passes. Presumably, their improvement at these two situations was related because, even in a Raye OFF, teams tend to pass the ball on 2nd & Long.
It takes a deeper look to recognize something that's even more sinister with the OFF. Namely, just how inefficiently the Niners' OFF played on 3rd down in the MIN game. It's easy to look at "0 for 11," and conclude that the OFF sucked on 3rd down. However, as bad as that is, the devil is in the details. Try these on for size:
- 3rd Down DVOA dropped 20.7% after playing MIN
- 3rd Down & Short DVOA dropped 21.9% after playing MIN
- 3rd Down & Mid DVOA dropped 23.6% after playing MIN
- 3rd Down & Long DVOA dropped 17.5% after playing MIN
- 3rd Down Pass DVOA dropped 20.5% after playing MIN
In other words, the only thing the 49ers did above "sheer suckitude" level on 3rd down vs. MIN was run the ball. Perhaps that's why Raye called a running play on 3rd & 6 with the game in the balance? Just kidding of course. If you want to see the anatomy of a 3rd-down collapse, here it is (in chronological order):
|
Distance |
Yardline |
Quarter |
Time Left |
Score |
Type of Play |
Direction |
Play |
Yards |
|
22 |
SF 11 |
1 |
14:08 |
SF 0 - MIN 0 |
Pass |
Short Left |
Complete (Morgan) |
1 |
|
1 |
SF 31 |
1 |
11:31 |
SF 0 - MIN 0 |
Pass |
Short Right |
Incomplete (Bruce) |
0 |
|
1 |
SF 23 |
1 |
7:39 |
SF 0 - MIN 7 |
Run |
Middle |
Handoff (Coffee) |
-1 |
|
5 |
SF 13 |
1 |
0:11 |
SF 0 - MIN 7 |
Pass |
Short Middle |
Incomplete (Coffee) |
0 |
|
12 |
MIN 47 |
2 |
10:36 |
SF 0 - MIN 10 |
Pass |
Short Middle |
Complete (Davis) |
11 |
|
9 |
SF 44 |
2 |
2:06 |
SF 7 - MIN 13 |
Pass |
Short Right |
Incomplete (Bruce) |
0 |
|
2 |
SF 24 |
3 |
11:00 |
SF 14 - MIN 13 |
Run |
Middle |
Handoff (Coffee) |
0 |
|
8 |
MIN 23 |
3 |
5:29 |
SF 14 - MIN 13 |
Pass |
Short Right |
Complete (Davis) |
4 |
|
15 |
SF 32 |
3 |
2:50 |
SF 17 - MIN 20 |
Pass |
Short Right |
Complete (Robinson) |
8 |
|
17 |
SF 20 |
4 |
4:22 |
SF 24 - MIN 20 |
Pass |
Short Right |
Complete (Davis) |
8 |
|
6 |
MIN 49 |
4 |
1:41 |
SF 24 - MIN 20 |
Run |
Right End |
Handoff (Coffee) |
2 |
Tallying things up, that's 11 3rd downs averaging 9 yards to go, with Coffee running 3 times for 1 yard (0.33 yards per carry), and Hill completing 5 of 8 passes for 32 yards (4.0 yards per attempt). In case you didn't notice, 4 yards per attempt on 9 yards-to-go per 3rd down leaves you an average of 5 yards short of the first down. Maybe a pass beyond short this and short that might work? Just saying.
There are two things I'll point out regarding the last 3rd down play, which many on NN have been lambasting. First, the 49ers had a very similar situation with 5:29 left in the 3rd quarter (i.e., the one in bold). The Niners had 3rd & 8 in MIN territory while protecting a lead. And what did Raye call in that situation? A pass, which ultimately was completed to Vernon Davis short of the first down. So I think it goes without saying here that Raye is more than happy to call a pass - to Vernon Davis no less - in situations very similar to the one encountered at the end of the game. Aside from needing 2 extra yards for the first down, there's really only two situational differences on that last 3rd & 6: (a) the 49ers weren't in FG range yet, and (b) the clock was a much bigger factor. The first point I'm trying to make here is that, even if you disagree with Raye's run call on that last 3rd down, you can't extrapolate that one call to an overall run-first mentality on 3rd down.
More to this point, here's the breakdown by distances:
- 6 passes for 32 yards and 0 runs on 3rd & Long
- 1 pass for 0 yards and 1 run for 2 yards on 3rd & Mid
- 1 pass for 0 yards and 2 runs for -1 yards on 3rd & Short
Here's more proof that Raye is A-OK with passing the ball on 3rd Down. In fact, he even called for a pass on 3rd & Short, and, called for a pass on 7 of the 8 3rd downs of 5 or more yards prior to that last 3rd down play. So, again, the point here is that you can complain about that last call all you want; just don't attribute that one run to a general run-oriented play-calling philosophy on 3rd down. Now, as I said above, too many short passes on 3rd down is more likely the problem than too few passes. Of course, this might just as easily be Hill's fault as it might be Raye's. Is Raye calling for longer passes and Hill is checking down or is Raye calling for short passes and Hill is executing what's called? As we're not privy to the specific plays that were called, that's something we just can't know. Therefore, based on the evidence, it's probably best to at least give Raye the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
The second point I'll make in this vein is that, in the 7 passes Raye called on 3rd & 5 or more yards prior to that final 3rd down play, the Niners had 0 first downs and only 32 yards to show for it. So is it totally out of line - as Mike Singletary said in his Monday presser - for Raye (and Singletary) to think that their run call on 3rd & 6 at the end had a better chance of achieving the first down than did a pass? It wasn't like SF was burning it up on 3rd down passes the whole game. On the contrary, Hill and company were pretty inept when previously given the chance to pass on 3rd down. Now, granted, 3rd down runs were even less successful, so I'm not saying running the ball there was the right call (although unsuccessful runs came on the super-obvious run down, 3rd & Short). I'm simply saying that, given what transpired in the game on previous 3rd downs - not to mention the clock situation - running the ball in that situation wasn't the wrong call either. Raye could have called a run or a pass on that play, and it was unlikely to work either way given the 49ers' abysmal 3rd-down performance throughout the game.
FIELD ZONE RANKINGS
Again, just to remind you, for the OFF rankings in the table below, "Deep" means inside SF's 20 yard line, "Back" means between SF's 20 and 39, "Midfield" means between SF's 40 and their opponents' 40, "Front" means between their opponents' 39 and 20, "Red Zone" means inside their opponents' 20, and "Goal-to-Go" means inside their opponents' 10. These are reversed for DEF rankings such that, for example, "Red Zone" means the opponent has the ball inside SF's 20 yard line. Here are the rankings:
|
Field Zone |
Offense |
Rank |
Defense |
Rank |
|
Deep |
-49.2% |
29 |
-33.6% |
6 |
|
Back |
-18.9% |
27 |
-9.2% |
10 |
|
Midfield |
-25.5% |
31 |
-23.0% |
4 |
|
Front |
-14.8% |
22 |
18.2% |
20 |
|
Red Zone Pass |
69.8% |
8 |
4.5% |
16 |
|
Red Zone Run |
9.4% |
12 |
7.2% |
19 |
|
Red Zone Overall |
17.1% |
12 |
5.6% |
17 |
|
Goal-to-Go |
79.9% |
8 |
40.4% |
20 |
On OFF, the 49ers now are nearly as crappy from their own 20 to the opponents' 40 as they already were inside their own 20. The worst decline came between the 40s though, with their Midfield DVOA dropping 8 spots and 25.7%. An encouraging sign, however, is the pass OFF's improvement in the red zone. Specifically, they saw their ranking jump 13 spots and their Red Zone Pass DVOA improve by 99.9%. In other words, they're now twice as efficient at red zone passing than they were before the MIN game. This improvement had the pleasant side effect of taking the SF OFF from a below average red zone team to an above average one.
In a peculiar turn of events, the exact opposite thing happened to the DEF as compared to the OFF in the middle of the field. Rather than continuing to lay an egg, they've instead found themselves the golden goose. By "laying an egg" I mean their 25th-ranked 21.6% Midfield DVOA after 2 games, and by "golden goose," I mean their 4th-ranked -23.0% Midfield DVOA after 3 games.
Another peculiar turn of events is not so kind to the 49ers DEF. Specifically, they gave up 20 points to MIN's OFF despite MIN never snapping the ball inside SF's 20 yard line. To be honest, I was totally - and thankfully - unaware of this until noticing that the DEF's Red Zone and Goal-to-Go DVOA stats were identical after 3 games as they were after 2. So, yeah, that was quite a kick in the junk finding out that the Niners lost to a team whose OFF scored 0 points in the red zone. Further kicking ensued when I realized that one of the only ways a team can win a game like that is by having big-play capability in the passing game, which the 49ers' OFF clearly does not.
SPECIAL TEAMS RANKINGS
Below are the Niners' ST DVOA stats broken down by unit:
|
FG/XP |
Rank |
Kickoff |
Rank |
Kickoff Return |
Rank |
Punt |
Rank |
Punt Return |
Rank |
|
2.8 |
2 |
-4.3 |
32 |
-1.1 |
16 |
2.6 |
10 |
-2.1 |
25 |
Pretty much everything here is the same as last week except for one glaring difference: SF's kickoff unit went from 4th in the league, gaining 2.7 points per kickoff via field position, to dead last, giving up 4.3 points per kickoff via field position. Allowing a kickoff to be returned for a TD will definitely do that to your kickoff coverage stats.
And in case you were wondering, points per punt actually got better - moving up 1 spot - despite some complaints on NN and elsewhere that Andy Lee had an inefficient game.
Oh, and Allen Rossum still sucks.
BOTTOM LINE
OK, so through 3 games, we can draw the following conclusions about the 2009 49ers based on their team statistics thus far:
- If it wasn't for the OFF, the 49ers' stats would qualify them as an above-average NFL team.
- The DEF and ST have been carrying the team, but the MIN game exposed some chinks in the armor with respect to 3rd down and kickoffs. Only time will tell us whether the armor's truly been breached.
- The only meaningful situation in which the OFF doesn't suck, and has in fact improved, is in the red zone.
- Oh yeah. Did I mention that the OFF sucks?
Remember, though, the stats I've presented in this article have not been adjusted for opponent. We'll have a much better idea about how efficiently the 49ers have been playing once FO starts incorporating opponent DVOA adjustments after this week's games.
**DVOA statistics used to produce this article were obtained from Football Outsiders.
0 recs |
56 comments
|
Comments
Wonderfully Insightful..As soon as I wake up more. Wow some real surprises there on Offense, but i guess the true scores will be coming in the near future after 1/4 football season behind us
Judgment day is coming!
by Widowwolf on Oct 1, 2009 8:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Red Zone Stats doesn't surprise me.
In " 08 ", Hills Stats in the Red zone was Outstanding ! If my memory serves me correctly, he was 11 of 13 TDs in the Zone. In between the 20’s is where he has some problems.As far as throwing a 5 yard completion when they needed 9, lets not forget the calls are coming from the Sidelines.
The Stats are what they are for all players but the real fact is theses numbers also reflect on the OC and DC on what they’re doing Right or Wrong. So we can say without a doubt that Manusky is doing a Great Job and as for Raye…, Well its look like he could use some help.
By the way, you’re doing a Great Job with theses Stats. That’s a lot of work !!!!! Thanks !
by LASVEGASNINER on Oct 1, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
just looked up...
hill’s red zone stats from last season. he completed 54.8% of his passes for 3.7 yards per attempt, and had an 11-2 TD-INT ratio. his red zone QB rating last year was 82.9. i’m using NFL stats here because FO doesn’t publish the field zone breakdowns for specific players. all in all, those are pretty mediocre actually, and the yards per attempt is down right atrocious. i’d say they’d qualify hill as an average QB in the red zone last year. i think what’s clear is that he was a massive upgrade over o’mulligan last year, who had a 31.8% completion percentage for 2.1 yards per attempt, with a 6-3 TD-INT ratio, and a red zone QB rating of 41.1. that’s just god awful.
as for your point about raye…i think i made the same point in the article. not sure if you were making a counterpoint to what i said or just voicing your opinion in general.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank god
this was the condensed version.
*awesome info though, thanks for doing the dirty work, i need to reread the first book posting to make sense of any of it anyway, i am just having trouble wrapping my brain around how much can be quantified in a game so emotionally driven as football. Shouldn’t all stats be adjusted because Coach Sing gives everyone the chills when he talks?
by 4th and long. on Oct 1, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
haha
if FO adjusts for the Singletary chills effect, then the niners’ stats would look even worse. so it’s actually a good thing they don’t. :-)
if you have any questions about interpreting the stats after reading the other post, let me know.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really appreciate all the time you must spend putting this together, thanks!
Go niners!!!
by drums7890 on Oct 1, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
well done as always
the offense has a lot of work to do to keep the niners in the win column.
A hearty thank you to Rich Aurilia for all the good memories, and to the Niners for finally getting the uni's (mostly) right.
by wjackalope on Oct 1, 2009 10:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How do they...
…calculate the “Deer-in-Headlightsness” of a player? (See Roman, Mark)
Never use a big word where a diminutive alternative would suffice.
by YoungWillis on Oct 1, 2009 11:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
haha...
i think
deer in headlightedness for a DB = – (wonderlic score compared to average) – (40-time compared to average) – (INTs compared to average) – (passes defensed per attempt compared to average)
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're the math guy....
but if I’m reading this correctly, then we’re slightly better with Roman than playing 10 guys?
Never use a big word where a diminutive alternative would suffice.
by YoungWillis on Oct 1, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does this mean the offense isn't very good?
Just kidding, but it’s becoming obvious this offense just isn’t working very well. Which leads inevitably to the question; What will Sing/Raye do about it? Nothing? Just more of the same? I can’t understand why they are insisting on running, and then running some more, even with Gore out and the numbers showing it isn’t working. And especially when Hill has done such a great job, within imposed limitations, of throwing the ball. I suspect most people would go with what’s working instead of trying to force something that isn’t working and shows no signs of working in the future. There is a point where stubbornness becomes stupidity.
Thanks for putting in the time and effort, FD. We all appreciate it. The sample size is still a little low for me to say anything other than the stats are generally confirming what I’m seeing in the games. The BYE week numbers should be very informative.
by MontanaPass on Oct 1, 2009 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i think the "trustworthiness" progression...
goes like this for me:
right now = 50% trust
after opponent adjustments kick in for post-week 4 DVOA = 75% trust
after the 8th game or so, when the play-by-play sample size is up around 500 = 100% trust
not that you’d know it, but i’m actually withholding a bunch of info until after the 8th game (a chart tracking their weekly DVOA, quarter-by-quarter DVOA, DVOA by score gap, etc.) precisely because i want it to be as trustworthy as possible before i present it and draw conclusions.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t understand why they are insisting on running, and then running some more, even with Gore out and the numbers showing it isn’t working.
Because the numbers also show that the pass isn’t working and when you want to run down the clock, you get to choose between the not-working passing option which may lead to a clock stoppage or the not-working running option that will keep the clock rolling?
Sure, a pass may have been slightly more likely lead to a first down, but when you’re talking about a 10% chance, I’d rather force them to burn another time out. They had 12 seconds to go 30 yards. They should have protected the endzone and sidelines. With an incomplete pass, they’ve got maybe 30-40 seconds there and plenty more chances to get in the end zone.
What I really would have wanted is some sweeps that would eat up a little more time than the run up the middle. I think I also saw Lee punt the ball with 8 seconds left on the play clock on either the second to last drive. Take some more time off the clock. Nitpicking, but still. 12 seconds.
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Oct 1, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How did the blocked FG affect the ST ranking
I didn’t see any discussion of that.
by nickbradley on Oct 1, 2009 12:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
good observation...
here’s the relevant section in FO’s explanation of ST DVOA (crucial sentence in bold):
There are three aspects of special teams that don’t show up in our numbers because a team has little or no influence on them — and yet, these plays do have an impact on wins and losses. The first is the length of kickoffs by the opposing team, because no matter how strong your return man is, you can’t make the other guy kick it shorter. The other two are field goals against your team, and punt distance against your team. Research shows no indication that teams can influence the accuracy or strength of field-goal kickers and punters, except for blocks. And although blocked field goals and punts are definitely skillful plays, they are so rare that they have no correlation to how well teams have played in the past or will play in the future. The numbers for kickoff length against, punt length against, and field goals against are added up on the special teams stats pages in the column marked HIDDEN.
so basically, FG blocks don’t tell you anything meaningful about how good the overall ST is or will be. if you must know, though, the 49ers’ ST ranks 30th, giving up an average of 3.4 pts due to their overall KO length against, punt length against, and FG block stats. you can find ST DVOA stats for every team here.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK Thanks
The way I see it, the ST game vs. MIN was a wash — we blocked a FG for a TD, they ran a kick back for a TD. But on paper, MIN crushed us on ST.
by nickbradley on Oct 1, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sing and Raye are practicing "Risk Mitigation" -- and its effective
First, a couple of facts:
1. On average, a punt is equivelant to about about 35 – 40 net yards
2. At a MINIMUM, a turnover NOT committed works out to about 35 – 40 yards of field position lost MINUS the change in field position from the turnover (which means you would adjust 50 yards for a 50 yard intercepted pass).
At the current rate, the 49ers are turning the ball over once every 81.5 offensive snaps, a fantastic low rate.
By taking measure to cut the number of turnovers in half, Sing picks up at least 40 yards of field position a game.
Look at the Dolphins last year: Not a great team, but they only committed a turnover every 72 offensive plays — vs. the league average of 38. Over a season, that works out to at least 30 yards a game picked up in field position. Last year, we were the worst in the NFL in turnover % — one turnover every 26 offensive plays (cost us about 30 yards a game vs. the league average).
Keep in mind that the gap in net yardage per game across the middle third of the league (top to bottom) is only about 30 yards.
so, by simply refusing to turn the ball over and playing solid defense, a team can easily win 9 or 10 games and make the playoffs.
Call that PLAN SINGLETARY.
Personally, I believe that Singletary and Raye will begin to call more passing plays as their confidence in Hill to NOT make a turnover increases. But the Bottom line is that Singletary wants to follow the Ravens Model (until this year) of success: minimize risk on offense, play bone-crushing defense, and make all your field goals (and we’re good at that).
by nickbradley on Oct 1, 2009 1:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
interesting...
…that’s a pretty logical argument to me. one thing i’d say, though, from a game theory perspective is that, if Hill is turning the ball over twice every 100 dropbacks (i.e., his current stat), then the probability of hill commiting a turnover on any given dropback is .04. alternatively, if Coffee has not fumbled in 35 runs, then the probability of him fumbling on any given run is .00. therefore the probability of a turnover on any given pass play called by raye is only 4% higher than on any given run play called by raye. so the question is, “doesn’t the data already suggest that raye should call more passing plays?” if not, why not. i mean, what else does hill have to prove in re protecting the ball if he’s already a 49-to-1 favorite to not turn it over?
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
Passing the football, in general, is far more likely to result in a turnover than running the football — historically. I don’t have the numbers to see what the difference in turnover ratio is between running and passing — primarily because I cannot breakout between rushing fumbles lost, QB fumbles lost, and receiving fumbles lost. But I believe that WR and QB fumbles make up a disporportionally high percentage of fumbles.
If the historic number is, say 30:1 for pass plays and 60:1 for run plays — then you’re 2x as likely to turn the ball over passing than running. I assume different passing formations and plays have different turnover risks as well — the Martz 7-step drop probably had the highest turnover ratio of all time; but a 1WR/1RB/2TE set probably has a very low TO %.
Speaking of Martz and the ‘08 49ers, we had the worst turnover ratio in the league — 26:1. However, we had one of the best TO ratios under singletary last year. I can only imagine what it was under Nolan. My point is that if our TO ratio was consistently good throughout the whole season, we may have won 9 or 10 games last year! Is this something Singletary realized when he took over — and that’s why we’re so conservative?
by nickbradley on Oct 1, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
but the historical number for all QBs of all time is trumped by hill’s actual number this season when determining the probability of a turnover on a given play this season. using the all-time number obscures situational specificity. if you really want a comparison here are the passing and running turnover probabilities for the niners through 12 games under singletary (i’m using fumbles instead of fumbles lost because recovering a fumble is a random non-skill while holding onto the ball is a non-random skill):
passing
2008 — 16 turnovers (8 INTs, 8 fumbles ) in 311 dropbacks
2009 — 4 turnovers (1 INT, 3 fumbles) in 100 dropbacks
total — 20 turnovers in 411 dropbacks = 4.9% turnover probability
running
2008 — 7 fumbles in 206 RB carries
2009 — 0 fumbles in 77 RB carries
total — 7 turnovers in 283 RB carries = 2.5% turnover probability
so, my point here is that, of course passing is riskier than running. however, through 12 games under singletary, putting the ball in hill’s hands has increased the OFF’s turnover probability by only 2.4%. i’m pretty sure that, with that small a difference, hill should have earned singletary’s trust by now to open up the offense. it’s not something singletary needs to wait for as you suggested when you said:
I believe that Singletary and Raye will begin to call more passing plays as their confidence in Hill to NOT make a turnover increases.
so while i agree with your overall point about limiting turnovers being singletary’s MO, i think he should trust hill enough by now to not worry about becoming a turnover machine if they open up the offense a little.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points,
But I have a couple comments.
First, I only counted fumbles lost because recovering a fumble is a skill (situational awareness) — some players also try and pick a ball up instead of falling on it. Its not a 2.4% increase in fumbles — its a 97% increase in the chance of turning the ball over — nearly double.
Second, I use historical averages because (1) this season is too young and (2) our #s last year were out of whack — with the Mike Martz turnover machine.
by nickbradley on Oct 1, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but the martz turnover machine...
…only ran while nolan was coach. when singletary took over and replaced JTO with hill, the turnover machine died.
also, just a bit of statistical geekery here. representing a change from one very small number (2.5%) to another very small number (4.9%) as a 97% increase, while mathetmatically correct, is statistically deceptive. that’d be like me throwing a party because my income doubled from 1 cent to 2 cents. it’s more important that i only have 1 more cent than that my income doubled. or how about, for example, i found out that airline A has a death rate per 100,000 passengers of .00001%, while airline B has a rate of .00002%. sure, i’m twice as likely to die while flying on airline B, but is that going to make me not fly on airline B? of course not, because it’s more important that my chances of dying on airline B are 1 in 5 millon than that i’ve doubled my chance by choosing to fly on airline B. i’m not saying you’re intentionally being deceptive, just making the general point that the interpretation of 49er turnover rates is much more practical when you make conclusions based on the difference between the small raw percentages, rather than based on one small percentage as a percentage of the other small percentage. after all, even with the increase in passing turnover rate, there’s still a 95.1% chance that a turnover will not happen if singletary/raye call for a pass. if they’re not satisfied with that, then descibing them as “risk averse” would be an understatement-and-a-half.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's still twice as likely
Any way you slice it. And if you want to cut your chances of turning the ball over in half, run instead of pass.
And the turnovers didn’t necessarily stop due to Hill coming in — it was the change in play selection — Martz plays called while JTO was under center left the QB exposed and rushed.
by nickbradley on Oct 2, 2009 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do these OFF and DEF rankings take into account turnovers somehow? Our offense isn’t good, but I don’t think it’s that bad.. We don’t pick up much yardage, but we put points on the board, and we protect the ball. That’s got to be worth something yeah?
"We Deserve"
by YaHeard on Oct 1, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
they’re considered a very unsuccessful play. DVOA is based on a team’s success rate per play. if you want to know how play success rate factors in, read my explanation here or FO’s explanation here.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FO ignores a lot of Variables (nobody's perfect)
For example,
If the 49ers run for 6 yards on a 3rd-and-8 then punt, FO considers that an unsuccessful play. If the 49ers throw an incomplete pass on 3rd-and-8 and then punt, FO considers that an unsuccessful play.
However, the plays are not equal: the 49ers picked up 6 yards of field position.
Against MIN, we did exactly this in the 3rd quarter:
- On 4th and 15, we threw an 8-yard pass and punted. Lee punted a 46 net yard beauty. Total Field position drive: 66 yards
- MIN drove to our 42 and had to punt (touchback). Total Field Position Drive: 71 yards
- The 49ers drove down the field and scored a TD.
- If it werent’ for the 8 “meaningless yards”, Longwell would have been within easy range for a FG — the 8 yard pass on 3rd and 15 saved us 3 points!.
We threw another 8 yard pass on 3rd and 17 that resulted in MIN stalling on the SF 41 – they went for it on 4th down and lost. However, they were down by 4 — if they were down by 3 or less, Longwell would have definitely attempted a 58 yarder in the dome to tie/win the game.
What I’m saying is that FO ignores a lot of variables and an unsuccessful 3rd down by us prevented a MIN FG.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=290927016&period=0
by nickbradley on Oct 1, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh...
I understand the reasoning behind this line of thinking, but I just think that it’s pretty lame to put so much stress on field position as an achievement. A gain of 6 yards on 3rd-and-8 leading up to a punt may grant you a small consolation prize over no gain on an incomplete pass in the same situation, but it’s still a failure to achieve the ultimate goal as it results in a dead drive that hands the ball over to the opponent with no points being scored.
It’s also a flawed line of thinking, as the real risk assessment is the 6 yards of field position vs the (usually) dramatically higher chance of converting for the full yardage on 3rd down, and thus the continuation of the drive and the opportunity to move the ball even farther down the field.
It should go without saying that a 30% chance to convert and an 80% chance to gain minimal field position is far less advantageous than a 50% chance to convert and a 40% chance to gain that same minor amount of field position.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Oct 1, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you gain 6 yards extra for every possession...
Over 12 possessions (a general rule for the average number of possessions each team gets), that’s 72 yards of field position. That’s not insignificant.
It’s still an unsuccessful conversion attempt, but it’s much better than an incomplete pass.
Field position is not the end all be all, but it’s not worthless. If you’re at 3rd and 20, gaining a sure 10 yards on a short pass pattern is far more worthwhile than an attempt at a conversion that’s more likely to be picked off than it is to be converted.
“You’ve got to know when to hole ’em, know when to…”
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Oct 1, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one's questioning the point that 6 yards is better than 0 yards.
If it’s 3rd and 7, then I don’t think it’s unreasonable (or even all that risky) to attempt to convert a 7 yard pass.
The high percentage chance of gaining something via the run but low percentage chance of gaining enough on that same play is, in most situations, less valuable than the significantly higher percentage chance of gaining enough against the slightly higher percentage chance of gaining nothing.
There’s a big difference between playing it safe and letting your defense and special teams carry you to victory and playing ridiculously ultra-conservative and forcing your defense to make a stop on every possession just to make eventual progress in the field position battle.
You don’t play offense with the intention of creating good field possession for your next offensive series. You play offense to score points.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Oct 1, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're 0-5 in passing for a first down
Try running to:
1. Switch it up
2. Get something out of it rather than nothing
I like your video. You play to win the game. How you play to win the game is different under different circumstances.
Sometimes offense is about not losing the game (i.e. not throwing a costly pick, or pick-6). Sometimes it’s about going for it, knowing you’ll likely fail. Sometimes it’s about cutting your losses.
As I said before, “You’ve got to know when to hold ’em…”
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Oct 1, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most drives fail
You don’t play offense with the intention of creating good field possession for your next offensive series. You play offense to score points.
- Tell that to the Ravens of recent years. Run, Punt, and Play Defense — that wins.
OF course its better to score on offense, but its also better to give your defense more time to bend before they break. Putting your opponent on their own 10 instead of their own 20 is often times the difference.
by nickbradley on Oct 2, 2009 5:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In case you didn't know,
The 49ers are crushing the league in net punting yards — 315 net punting yards a game. We’re averaging 36 net punting yards a game more than any other team in the NFL.
If you combine net punting yards and total offensive yards, you get a good picture of the field position battle. In that arena, we are #2 in the NFL at 591 yards a game, second only to Dallas at 607 yards a game.
We’re also 10th in time of possession — great for being 29th in the NFL in 3rd down conversions.
Simply put, Singletary and Raye are giving other teams a very long field to work and little time to do it in.
by nickbradley on Oct 2, 2009 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Walsh used to talk about the need to select high percentage passes
And I think that’s at play here. On 3rd and 15, you have a 90% chance of throwing a 10 yard pass, but a 20% chance of throwing a 15+ yard pass (defenders crowd the first down line). In a defensive game where field position matters, this is huge.
Think about this:
(% chance of converting a 3rd down) x (% chance of scoring)
vs.
(% chance of gaining extra field position yards) x (% chance that opponents drive will terminate near field goal range or further away)
That’s the assessment.
by nickbradley on Oct 1, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
one question
I like the points you make, but one question. You said Longwell would have definitely attempted a 58-yarder. I do think there’s a good chance of that, but given that his career long is 55, I wouldn’t necessarily say “definitely.”
by Fooch on Oct 1, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah -- you should never say definitely
But the 52 yarder he nailed earlier would have went well over 60 yards. And you’re at home in the dome with a minute and a half left. I think its a no-brainer
by nickbradley on Oct 1, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
average field position
is accounted for separately from “play success”, I believe. So the 6 yards on 3rd-and-8 does count, it just counts much less than 6 yards on 3rd-and-6. Just like getting 20 yards on 3rd-and-6 counts more than 6 yards in the same situation.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 1, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
technically...
…this is wrong.
If the 49ers run for 6 yards on a 3rd-and-8 then punt, FO considers that an unsuccessful play. If the 49ers throw an incomplete pass on 3rd-and-8 and then punt, FO considers that an unsuccessful play.
FO doesn’t really use “success vs. failure” in an all or nothing kind of way. all yards count; there’s just a continuum from least successful to most successful number of yards on a given play.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying that FO
Underweighs the importance of field position.
by nickbradley on Oct 2, 2009 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they do
IMO, they tend to underrate ball control offenses. It is probably because they are undervaluing field position in their analysis. Those extra 10 yards do make an impact on the scoreboard.
by bignerd on Oct 2, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A point not given up is no different than a point scored
I bet there is an extremely strong correlation between where you start on the field and the odds of you scoring a field goal or TD. By making teams start from lower percentage spots on the field, you take opp points off the board.
Another point to consider about the 49ers play calling is that the 49ers are so well-conditioned that they need less time off the field to return to 100%. They may need a 10-minute breather to get back to full strength, whereas most defenses require more.
by nickbradley on Oct 2, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks again
I can’t wait to see our adjusted rankings after this weekend, and I can’t wait to see how badly we whoop on the Rams this weekend too.
Before panicking about these, it’s good to keep in mind that we played three very good teams so far: the reigning NFC champs, the team everyone picked to win the NFC West this season, and one of the best defensive teams in the league (with the best RB and one of the best QB’s of all time).
When the adjusted rankings come out, I believe we’ll be pleasantly surprised by them.
"We Deserve"
by YaHeard on Oct 1, 2009 1:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
fo = for
not fo = pho
or fo = of
or fo = football outsiders
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice work
but I think the VOAs (especially the special teams) jump around way too much to be very meaningful at this stage. That’s why they weight them with the pre-season predictions.
I also think that it’s not that they CALL short passes – they are just check downs. The Niners receivers are pretty sub-par. Bruce, our “best” WR is ranked 62nd in DVOA, although Josh Morgan has a good rate in 9 “throw tos” and Vernon Davis has been at least above average. Gore and Norris have also been above average receivers… but that’s probably a result of the short passing game.
I suspect that the passes are short because the O-Line is not giving Hill any time to work. (30th in adj. sack rate, plus you can tell that he never has time). They are also awful at run blocking, which is odd because they were good the last couple of years.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 1, 2009 3:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I suspect that the passes are short because the O-Line is not giving Hill any time to work. (30th in adj. sack rate, plus you can tell that he never has time). They are also awful at run blocking, which is odd because they were good the last couple of years.
That could be a result of teams putting 8 in the box, run blitzing, etc. because they “know” Gore is the only threat to hurt them. When Hill drops back to pass, that just means more pass rushers and more confusion for the offensive line. If Hill shows he can hurt people (which he kinda did last week), maybe that’ll settle down a bit more.
But what do I know.
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Oct 1, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if putting 8 men in the box
increased both your run defense AND your pass defense (via pass rush) then you would always do it.
It’s possible that they are trying to run into 8 man fronts, failing (which shows up as “bad run blocking”) and then are forced to pass in obvious passing situations, which means that the opposing DL has an easier job as well.
That might be part of it, but I would guess the majority is simple execution. Note that the NIners have been terrible at 2nd downs (much worse than 1st or 3rd)… is that because they run too much on 2nd down? Or is it just a sample size fluke? Fla-Danny we really need a couple more columns on that “down DVOA” table… number of attempts (pass and run) in each situation and how that compares to league average.
I suppose one COULD measure “lack of creativity” in play calling and see if the niners were particuarly bad at it (you should SOMETIMES pass in obvious running situations and vice versa… but not 50% of the time). It’s tough because if you fail on first and second down you face 3rd and long and hence are screwed by “having to pass” – but since the DVOAs are relative that should show up…. hmm… baseball is so much simpler!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 1, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's helping the pass rush
Not necessarily the overall pass defense. They don’t have to really worry about our receivers, so they’re not going to get burned by focusing on the pass rush. We’ll see how it goes. Basically, Gore has had 2 long runs, but nobody else has shown any big play ability. Big whoop if Hill dinks one over the pass rush for a 5-10 yard gain.
Alls I was saying is that if the D is in an 8 man front with a run blitz and Hill drops back to pass, it’s still a blitz and he’s not going to have time. Without any WR threat, there’s little incentive to move anybody out of the box, resulting in Hill continuing to be pressured and the O-Line to look overmatched.
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Oct 1, 2009 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i call it DVOA here...
…rather than VOA for the sake of simplicity. it’s hard enough getting people on here to understand what FO’s stats mean, so distinguishing between DVOA, VOA, and DAVE would be as comfortable on here as sticking a hot poker in my eye.
also, by reporting the VOAs here, it creates a nice storyline for showing just how important opponent adjustments are, which is part of the argument i constantly have to make in favor of DVOA over official NFL stats.
with that piece of “post strategy” said, i agree the OL is a big issue right now.
by Florida Danny on Oct 1, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anybody know where to find starting field position stats?
Not at NFL.com.
Oh, and an interesting stat for everybody:
Minnesota averages 13 yards more per kickoff than their opponents are getting. In the 8 kickoffs in the game against us, they won the kicking game 180-92. Pulling out the 101-yard anomaly, they picked up 3 1/3 yards on us per Kickoff.
They’re #1 in the league right now, but if you pulled out their 101-yard TD against us, they’d still be #2 behind san diego.
Oakland is the worst in the league: they lose 13 yards every time there is a kickoff in the games that they play.
We’re 28th in the league in this category, but if you pull out the 101-yard anomaly, we’re right near the median average for the league.
by nickbradley on Oct 2, 2009 9:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know of a place that keeps that stat in the archives. FO notes it in their analysis but I don’t think they publish the information.
During game day you can go to an ESPN.com and visit the game thread to get recap on each drive including starting field position but you would probably need to record and track those numbers yourself.
by bignerd on Oct 2, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see Average starting field position quoted all the time during games and in articles
but I never see it at NFL.com, ESPN, or any of the other big sites.
I read that last year, the top 4 teams in field position (through the first 4 games) were 15-1, while the bottom for were 4-12.
by nickbradley on Oct 2, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The information is only posted on their interactive game thread. Typically it’s a flash plug-in page with a scoreboard graphic with a journal log of the game underneath. It stays posted on the website only on game day.
by bignerd on Oct 2, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is the general concensus...
…when a team outperforms it’s numbers? Like let’s say the Niners improve slightly, but not drastically, and end up with average DVOA numbers but a 11-5 or 10-6 record….what sort of things do they point at?
Luck, fluke plays, special teams?….just wondering
Never use a big word where a diminutive alternative would suffice.
by YoungWillis on Oct 2, 2009 3:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That is what F.O. and their DVOA analysis suggests, it was part luck.
by bignerd on Oct 2, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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