Trades & Trade Deadline...
by Drew Kerr on Oct 13, 2009 2:59 PM PDT
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With the trade deadline quickly approaching and the Niners in desperate need to fill some voids, I wanted to put this post out to get some feedback and opinions of what moves the Forty-Niners should make (if anything at all). The trade deadline is 6 days, 6 hours, and 20 minutes or so away.
I will kick this thing off with what I think and some of the possibilities that are out there. This is just a guess because I cannot find the actual amount but I think our cap room is roughly $20-$25 Million. With Fooch's FrontPage Post earlier addressing the offensive line, I defenitely think we can all agree that we have to get some help there. But outside of those positions, I want to maybe get some hypotheticals from you all on other positions.
Here's just some ideas of some of the Guards that we maybe should persue (I want to target teams that could be desperate enough to make a move):
- David Joesph (G) (Tampa Bay) For 1 of our 2 first round picks
- Jake Scott (G) (Tennessee Titans) For a 4th round pick and Davis Baas
- Maurice Williams (G) (Jacksonville Jags) For a 2nd round pick.
Obviously there are several possibilities that can be thrown out there and mine may not even make sense to you. I sincerely hope that the Front Office is working around the clock to try and address this VERY big concern and need.
Here are a few more ideas that I have about possibilities of things we can do to increase talent in a variety of other positions:
- Julius Peppers (DE) (Carolina Panthers) For their 1st round pick back and Sopoaga
- Mike Brown (SS) (Kansas City Cheifs) For Arnaz Battle and a 3rd round pick
- Shaun Rogers (NT) (Cleveland Browns) For Aubrayo Frankiln and a 2nd round pick.
Anyway, these are all obviously hypothetical but I think it opens up the discussion. I am curious to see what moves hypothetically that we should make in your opinions. If you think the Niners are set, then I would like to hear why as well
Attached is a poll in reference to where we could benefit if we upgrade
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Forget upgrading the defense.. they are doing good and just had a bad game.
Also, I would not trade a 1st rounder for a OG.
Do you know why either of those teams would trade a starting OG during the season? Are they giving up already?
Also, you should have waited to post until it was 6 days, 6 hours and 6 minutes….. 666 would fit the feeling many are having after Sunday.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Is he coming up for free agency?
I noticed he’s in his 4th year and he was undrafted. Fooch if you’re reading this I went to nflpa.com like you advised but I don’t see where they have how long the players contracts are can you advise?
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Oct 13, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Very well could be
we need someone this year though. That’s for sure. Not sure all the guys we have now are the answer
I'm not wholly disagreeing with you just being a bit of a "realist"or maybe pessimist
I’m thinking nothing’s gonna happen between now and next tuesday. So I’m looking at what’s out there for next year. I have a whole plan working in my my head. :-)
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Oct 13, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Plus maybe we get someone else this yr (by tuesday) then ..
pick him up in FA when it starts. Imagine us with Staley(LT), Davin(LG), Heittman©, Mankins (RG) (or Snyder even), and a fresh new draftee at RT. Having Boone and Chilo and Cody as backup (and maybe a 3rd or 4th round OG picked up in the draft) Now that’s a nice line. A boy can dream can’t he?
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Oct 13, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry my bad he was drafted duh!
He was a first rounder took too quick a glance at the screen my bad sorry about that.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Oct 13, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably not...
chances of us getting a guy like that are slim to none… I just hope that the front office isn’t content after watching the game last week.
Someone needs to be brought in to help
I wouldn't upgrade anything that requires a 1st or 2nd round pick
We need to get younger as well as better.
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
We have plenty youth.
What do you consider youth, at around 27 years of age we should be looking at replacements. That way they get time under their belt before they start!
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
We are in the process of rebuilding, IMO that's through the draft and free agency not a midseason panic!!
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
Undoubtedly
a lineman past the second round and in a majority of the case in the first round is not going to be an immediate contributer.
And it’s not so much a panic…actually at this point it is a panic. If we want a shot at playoffs, you have to have some aggresiveness and go after some people that are gonna help. Rolling over with your tail in between your legs and sayin, “we are in the process of rebuilding” just doesn’t cut it. We’ve been rebuilding since the mid 90’s. And unless we want to KEEP rebuilding every year, we need to bring in some winners now. Veterans pass their knowledge on to rookies, not the other way around
We have not been rebuilding since the mid 90's
We just hit a major rebuild fail. Mooch started teh rebuild process when he cleaned up the contract situation. We are rebuilding, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have expectations in the process, it means you’re being realistic. We have Shaun Hill starting and our 2005 #1 overall riding pine. We haven’t been to the playoffs since 2002, it is what it is. Every veteran isn’t good for passing down knowledge, some may not to reserve their own spot this league is cut throat because it consists of human beings. Let’s be realistic here, TEAMS DON’T Part with PROBOWL lineman unless they have vast potential behind them, unless they are tanking their season. Giving up draft picks in what could be the heaviest draft ever is dumb, IMO.
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
From 1998-2002
there was a gap. And after that 2002-Present. To me, that’s not rebuilding.2 playoff appearances in 11 years? ‘98 loosing a Wild Card game to Green Bay and ’02 lost the Divisional playoff game to the Bucs. So since the 94-95 Season (14 years from current events), we haven’t been in a championship game. Thats not exactly building, or at least by my definition building.
So not being in a championship game in 14 years means we have been rebuiding the whole time?
This is the one downfall to have a Dynasty, every team for every year to come will be held to that standard. Some teams have 14 year droughts from the playoffs, so from 98-2002 we at least had playoff wins. My idea of rebuilding is when you haven’t been to the PLAYOFFS in 6 seasons and the best players on your team were drafted in the past 6 years and are also some of the youngest players. The Seahawks have all of the ancient players, I would consider them on the cusp of needing to rebuild. The Cardinals are past rebuilding and more in the tweeking stages, we the 49ers of 2009 are rebuilding. How long do you think this takes? Everyone can’t have a Herschel Walker deal and get 3 1st rounders. We are in the first year of a new coach and our best player overall is in his 3rd year. (sounds like rebuilding to me.) Majority of our starters were drafted in the past 6 years or came via free agency. Over the past 6 years we are always the team that is being talked about in regards to making it back to the playoffs, 2002 ended the veteran QB left, he took our playoff hopes with him and count our starting QB’s since his departure and that should tell you we are rebuilding from what became of our team after that happened!
And the proper venacular is RE-building, not building, maybe that’s where our lines are crossing.
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
so from 98-2002 we at least had playoff wins.
We lost both those games in case you missed that. They were 1st games in both cases.
I think the word “rebuiding” should be taken out of football vocabulary. You play every season for one purpose. That’s win the Superbowl.
Cardinals are past rebuilding and more in the tweeking stages
How?
I think to ignore the fact that we need lineman first and foremost BEFORE anything else is lacking common sense. To say you want to get all these players like Eric Berry and people like that is neglegance and flat out turning your head to the LARGEST problem on this team. The line on both ends offense/defense need more help than ANY OTHER AREA. Period.
“I think the word "rebuiding" should be taken out of football vocabulary. You play every season for one purpose. That’s win the Superbowl.”
That’s not true.
Probably half the teams in the league know on opening day that they’re not winning the super bowl that year. Those teams care more about evaluating and developing talent than they do about winning the super bowl – although the appearance of caring about winning the super bowl is also very important. (In fact, I would argue that half the teams in the league care more about appearing to try to win the super bowl than they do about actually winning it).
" The line on both ends offense/defense need more help than ANY OTHER AREA. Period."
Period?
Here’s an interesting question:
Who could start on more teams in the NFL, given a full training camp?
Shaun Hill or Adam Synder?
Shaun Hill or Joe Staley?
Shaun Hill or David Bass?
Shaun Hill or Eric Heitman
Shaun Hill or Chilo Rachal?
Shaun Hill could clearly start on more teams that Rachal. Rachal is playing, in my opinion, at least half on potential – to get him game experience so he can develop into a quality player.
Shaun Hill would, equally clearly, start on fewer teams than Staley or Heitman, who are both well respected, average-to-above-average players at their position.
David Bass? He’d start on a decent number of teams. It’s a hard call. Same with Adam Snyder.
Or look at the unit as a whole. How many teams would trade quarterbacks with us, straight up? The answer isn’t zero, but is it bigger than one? Would Cle trade Quinn for Hill? Buffalo Edwards? Russell, sure. Delhomme? Probably not. J Johnson? Tough call.
That’s not true.
Probably half the teams in the league know on opening day that they’re not winning the super bowl that year. Those teams care more about evaluating and developing talent than they do about winning the super bowl
I beleive it is true. Since the Cardinals and teams like the Dolphins have done what they have, I don’ think anyone came in to the season saying, “oh well….it’s gonna be another loosing season”. Now there may be teams saying that now but as the season starts THAT IS the ultimate objective.
Like rlott#42 said the Cardinals are in the tweaking stage. That means they are adding personnel to be good year in and year out. I agree that every team plays for the Super Bowl every year but some do it differently than others. The Steelers are much closer than say the Niners to winning the Super Bowl and both teams know that. With the Niners and other teams that are rebuilding they use the personnel that they have and play for the Super Bowl and if it turns out like the Dolphins then fine but throughout the season they are more evaluating and looking to upgrade for the next year to give them a better chance to win the Super Bowl. This can be said for every team not just rebuilding teams but I think it applies more to rebuilding teams.
I want me some Buster
I think neglegence applies to you not paying attention to the damn conversation!
We were discussing trading 1st round and 2nd round picks, not the importance of an O-Line. You keep rattling on assuming I don’t think O-Lineman are important, where you got that from I don’t know. I’ve seen this on almost every comment you have , you continue to throw out suggestions because you can’t read properly. I never said lineman were not important, I did say I wouldn’t want to give up those picks in this upcoming draft. Our D Backs is the weakest link, and they have been for years. Cardinals are more in the tweeking stages because they are not as many players away from being good every year as we are. Our wideouts can’t get open they have 4 that can get open. Their Db’s are young and get torched but they make more plays than ours and don’t celebrate before they score. Dockett is the guy on the D Line making everyone around him better. If they had Willis and Gore they be a contender for it all. If we had their best two players, take your pick, and we may be a playoff team and you can take that to the bank.
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
We were discussing trading 1st round and 2nd round picks, not the importance of an O-Line. You keep rattling on assuming I don’t think O-Lineman are important, where you got that from I don’t know. I’ve seen this on almost every comment you have , you continue to throw out suggestions because you can’t read properly.
I can read just fine. What you have been saying lacks common sense. Every comment you have said has been Eric Berry this and Eric Berry that. Get over Eric Berry, he’s overrated anyway!
Lemme ask this hot shot, how many times have the safeties we have now got burnt on a deep pass? To sit there and say Safeties are our biggest hole, is just… well I will keep it civil unlike you. But I think you get the point
With Lewis getting 3rd concussion and possibly retiring it has definitely become a need and I think there are one maybe two OT that are top tier and the rest drop off from that and don’t deserve that high of a pick. If both those tackles are gone why reach for one when a player like Berry or Mays will be sitting there and we can fill another need?
I want me some Buster
I doubt thats going to happen
EVERYONE knows that we are extremely weak on both sides of our line. I would not be surprised if there was trades to bridge the gap on either or both lines. I think Mays is better than Berry anyway. I have watched both play, and I don’t see what all the hype is about Berry. He’ll probably go to the Rams or Cleveland anyway. If he makes an impact on either of those teams, I’ll retract my “overrated” statement. But I am not going to hold my breath either. We need to flat out address the O-line first and then the D-line or it’s gonna be the same garbage year in and year out. You could have 14 other guys out of the 22 that are superstars but it’s not going to matter much if the 5 up front on O and the 3 or 4 up front on D are horrendous.
How Berry is better in coverage than Mays
by 49erSalvatrucha on Oct 14, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
We can do alot
with those draft picks to pick up young veterans (guys who have proven NFL ability) and hope that our gambles with those draft picks pan out
Who deals proven youth on the O-Line?
The post in itself is wishful thinking, I am just being realistic!
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
Atlanta picked up Tony Gonzales for a 2nd Rounder
these trades do happen, especially in years like this one when teams are shedding salary.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
Tony Gonzales...
… is not “proven youth on the O-Line.”
Quarterback?
We need a guy that can develop as a franchise QB. Why would Mays or Berry make sense over a guy like Clausen or Bradford make more sense? I’m pretty sure all four of those guys would be in the same bracket
The QB class is deep this year so I would use our first round pick to address that if they really think they need to. Ideally, I would hope for a top two OT in Okung or Williams with Carolina’s pick, but I think Williams will be a reach at where Carolina’s pick is projected. Then go with a a QB with our pick or best player available. The way I see it playing out though is picking Mays with Carolina’s pick and Williams or maybe Cody with our pick but both possibly will be gone by then.
I want me some Buster
I thought you don’t draft right tackles very high in the first
by 49erSalvatrucha on Oct 14, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think the Panthers pick will be higher 1-5
Somewhere between 5-13, this is how many teams that NEED a QB……Rams, Seahawks, Jaguars, Bills, and Washington, all of whom could be drafting a QB. Then you have the Lions, Raiders, Chiefs, and Titans will be selecting LT’s and DT’s. We need an Eric Berry at Safety, I said I would trade up for him, never said the team should, but I did say that the team should not pass on him. Maybe you could tell me how many top 3 defenses that don’t have an elite safety. (end of the year defenses not midseason)
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
That means Al Davis would sprout a brain
Too much money in Russell, this is Berry’s landing spot IMO, Davis is the guy that would draft him 1 overall
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
No way
Taylor Mays probably runs a faster 40.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Oct 15, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
i heard he can run
like a 4.25 or something like that. That is definitely Al Davis territory.
Go 49ers
Oh yeah
He’s probably gotten a bit slower since he has gradually added weight.
But for a guy that’s as heavy as him to run that fast: WOW
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Oct 15, 2009 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd pick up
Scott for the price you listed
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
A good guard could be had for cheaper.
Someone like Brian Waters of the Chiefs.
"I wish the Seahawks were back in the AFCW so we didn’t have to face Willis and Gore twice a year."
I'd give up picks for vets that have a lil in the tank, that won't require a top 64 pick!
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
I disagree about not giving up a First Rounder for a Guard
for the right Guard, with the right contract, that can help us this year, when the division is there for the taking, I would be willing to trade a First Rounder for.
for example, if the Niners feel like a solid lock on the playoffs, and pick up a young starting guard with a reasonably priced contract for about three years. They help themselves for this year and the next couple years, while giving up a late first round pick.
I make that trade for the right guy.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
What do you have against lineman? haha
Seems like you’d rather get anyone but a lineman. Is it because they arent exciting? They are a key component to success
Because a 1st round pick for a guard
is overpaying by at least one round.
The only linemen worth a 1st round pick are offensive tackles and I’m not aware of any that are coming up in the next draft that are worth a 1st round.
The 1st round
I suggested for David Joseph wouldn’t be all that crazy considering he was a 1st rounder picked 23rd overall. He is a Probowl caliber type player (which means we don’t have to worry about how good he is at the NFL level). And we also have another 1st round pick. I doubt we would go after him and I doubt even more that they’d deal him like rlott42 suggested. I was just throwing it out there really is what it comes down to.
But if your argument is it doesn’t add worth to our team, having a guy like that. I would argue with you until I was blue in the face. He’s an established NFL guy. A draft pick is never gauranteed.
I think someone mentioned a RT also… that could maybe have a bigger impact if we did some repositioning…
Either way, we gotta get some help in there on our OL
you wouldn't trade a first rounder for a Larry Allen in his Prime?
or a Bruce Matthews? For the Niners running style to work, they need some guards that can pull. The guards they currently have are too slow of foot to execute the blocking schemes they come up with inside. When people repeat lines nonstop like “guards aren’t worth first rounders” it ends up sounding like dogma.
The way I see it, the single greatest factor keeping the Niners out of the playoffs THIS YEAR is their offensive guard play. If they can get three years of a reasonably priced very good guard for a first round pick next year, IMO its worth a First Rounder.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
my previous comment was a reply to smileyman
I never seem to put the comments where they are meant to go. Thanks for researching this thread and getting it up there.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
by connie mack on Oct 13, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Steve Hutchinson.
Alan Faneca.
Davin Joseph.
Arron Sears.
Logan Mankins.
Ben Grubbs.
"Mayhap a hidden door lurks nigh. Let us search the environs."
by Fearless Frog on Oct 14, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree about giving up those picks at this point in the season.
When will that Lineman be in sync with the O and the playbook? When will they be at full serviceable form? I’ll tell you what It won’t be by week 6-9. That would leave the second half of the season and Shaun Hill still has the same setbacks. We are rebuilding this team, the attitude is just the easiest thing to get to the talent will come!
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
So
you don;t think if we got a lineman in a similar style offense he could pick up the blocking assignments in 2 weeks (for the most part). It’s not like the NIners have the most complicated playbook
You think?
How can you judge complication of a playbook based on our lack of numerous formations. You have to earn your full playing time duties. You can hide bad lineman just not in the run game. We need more off the tackel runs, wait our tackles suck at run blocking too,, so adding one guard will not put us in a dramatically better position.
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
Veteran guys are more adaptable than you think. Oline is less complicated in the NFL to pick up than receiver. Did you happen to catch the Monday Night game?
Braylon Edwards
One guy can do more than you would think. Especially if he’s replacing the weakest link and elevating the mediocre guys game with his play.
We obviously have a difference in opinion. But you ask any coach at any level and they’ll all tell you the same thing. “The game is won in the trenches”
Thought I posted this already
Interestingly, LTs Joe Staley and Sam Baker are tied at #64 in rank with overall grades of -4.8 and -4.6, respectively. Neither of them is very good at run blocking while Baker holds a small edge in pass blocking. At RT, Atlanta’s Tyson Clabo far outranks Adam Snyder, with Snyder’s very bad run blocking grade comparing badly to Clabo’s.
http://www.ninersnation.com/2009/10/9/1078346/comparing-the-atl-and-sf-offensive
1 person means not just me, and there have been others!
"Optimist Prime"
Come along and ride the muthaship!
Joe Staley isn't very good right now
I wouldn’t call him an Elite LT at the moment.
But he does have the potential to get there.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Oct 15, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
our tackles can hardly fend for themselves, let alone help out, and Heitman's
head is on a swivel because they are weak on both sides of him.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
Just heard on nfl.com that Glenn Dorsey is on the trading block thoughts?
by 49erSalvatrucha on Oct 13, 2009 9:54 PM PDT reply actions
Nah
Sounds too much like Ken Dorsey… haha
He would not be too much of an upgrade at that position IMO
Well
considering that his natural position is DE I’d say its safe to say DE. He doesn’t even break the 300 lb. mark so NT is out of the question. He’s not going to replace Justin Smith, that’s for sure. If it’s anyone, it would be Sopoaga and the stats aren’t much different. Dorsey has a whopping 5 more tackles than Sopoaga…soo…. not an upgrade really like I said. You’d be shuffling for the sake of shuffling.
I like the idea for a Offensive lineman
But we don’t need to trade anything for defense. It’s fine as it is right now. But the way Mgt. is thinking…….. ?
Strong Safety???
I think we will try to go after Clinton Hart who was released by the Chargers.. what do you guys think?
Late pick?
It would be no pick, he’s been released.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Oct 14, 2009 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
The Shaun Rogers trade sounds interesting.
With all the uncertainty surrounding Franklin’s contract, it might be better to lock in a replacement NT right now rather than get into a bidding war for Franklin during an uncapped year. The team could use the franchise tag on Franklin, but that would still leave uncertainties about FA restrictions in a new CBA. Much better to get it done now before everything blows up in the offseason. Rogers is kind of a malcontent, but there’s no doubt about his talent and having him would improve the D-line. Not sure Cleveland would want to trade for Franklin with his current contract situation without being able to sign a longer term contract, which would return us to the question of why the 9ers can’t/won’t renegotiate his current contract. Do the 9ers just not want him or is Franklin insisting on testing free agency and possibly pulling down some of that Haynesworth money?
Rogers is a talent
I think part of his attitude problem stems from being on the Lions and Browns his entire career. He gets all the blame from fans and he has zero help. He’s a bit of clown and I think he’s had that aspect of his personality attacked because he’s always played for losers. He’d probably thrive on a team with good defenders.
The problem is what would have to be given up to get Rogers. IMO, I’d give up a 2nd round pick but a 1st round is much too high given his sour reputation. However, his market price might be a 1st round pick.
Rogers
Would a crappy team like the Browns even demand a 1st rounder for Rogers? Maybe a combo of maybe a 2nd and 5th would placate them.
by Hoopers Judge on Oct 14, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't he block two kicks in one game?
BEAST…
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Oct 15, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I miss Smiley!
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
That idiot is a Genius
ZOMG! BRONCOS D-FENSE RULZ . . . NOZ 1 BABY!
(psst . . . Bengals, Browns, Raiders, Cowboys and Pats)
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