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NN Official Jimmy Raye Discussion FanPost

And so it returns.  We've had a numerous Jimmy Raye FanPosts sprouting up causing discussion to spread to a variety of locations.  I appreciate the FanPosts, but I prefer getting the conversation focused in one thread.

Accordingly, I agree with some folks who indicated it was time for a FanPost devoted to Jimmy Raye.  I can't find it but at some point we had an official Jimmy Raye FanPost, but either way, the time has come to bring it back.  If you create another Jimmy Raye FanPost, more likely than not I'll delete it so we can keep discussion focused.  If I do decide to delete it I'll email you and paste the info into the email so you can move the comments over to this FanPost.

There are plenty of opinions out there on Jimmy Raye.  Many folks are appalled by the play-calling, other folks think it has more to do with player execution.  Whatever your opinion, feel free to share it here.

Also, please rec this up so we can keep it up top.  Continue rec'ing it even after it's moved up top.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.

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I wonder....

If Jimmy Raye will attack TEN’s weak secondary this weekend.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by chikmagnet_565 on Nov 2, 2009 12:27 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hell yes he will!

They’re not gonna know what hit em when Frank Gore busts up the middle and into the second and third levels of the Titans defense!

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 2, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Frank Gore should have a good game

49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha

by 49erSalvatrucha on Nov 2, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

lmao

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by chikmagnet_565 on Nov 3, 2009 9:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it is fair to say that a lot of the offensive struggles are a result of lack of player execution. The offensive line has been wretched this year, which is really surprising to me considering how adequately they played for most of last year.

However, a good offensive coordinator would be able to see the lack of execution and adapt to the situation—namely, use what does seem to be working for you. I think most of us have noticed that the offense seems to flourish when it is spread out and Smith is in the shotgun. Why can’t Raye see it?

The best answer I can come up with is this: Singletary and Raye seem to want to prove that this is a tough, grind-’em-out team that will use the run to dictate the game, and they refuse to go away from that type of an offense unless they are down big and HAVE to throw.

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Nov 2, 2009 1:35 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Despite the volume of Homer picks

for this week’s prediction games (myself included), I think everyone can agree that going into the game, even if the Niners had a legit shot at winning the game (which it turns out we did) it was going to be a slim margin of error, that if we exceeded, we probably wouldn’t win. Having said that, Jimmy Raye did not help put us into a position to win the game, when it became apparent we could win the game (entire game, up until about the 3:30 mark in the 4th Q).

I had mentioned in a post (not sure which one it is right now) that this was a game where we might need all the cheap/ trick play type points we could get in order to have a chance. Sure enough, the TD that decided the game was on a trick play (Addai passing) and Jimmy Raye gave us the same generic, pound the rock, type of strategy. Something has got to give, we absolutely need to become more creative and include more variables, and I don’t mean some tired wildcat approach- how about HB passes (michael robinson> former GOOD college QB, forget Arnaz), end arounds, flea flickers> something. We could have really benefited yesterday from some creativity, and it was painful to watch generic 5 step drops, screen passes, and runs up the gut on every down.

Who knows, maybe Jimmy Raye is into moral victories, because if that’s the case, I’m sure he slept pretty well last night.

Chris Cohan- YOU'RE FIRED!

by bonbrillio on Nov 2, 2009 1:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand your post

How did Raye not help us into a position to win the game when it became apparent we could win the game? It was always apparent we could win this game. We never trailed through three quarters. We led for nearly 42 minutes.

What is it about the 3:30 mark of the 4th Q? We didn’t have the ball for the final six minutes.

How did we pound the rock? Alex Smith dropped back to pass 37 times. RBs had 17 carries.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't get it either...

But to me it seems like Sing and Raye’s cornhole (sorry couldn’t think of a better word) tightens up when the game is close and we have the lead and they are petrified to make a mistake. Instead of letting Smith go downfield and throw a possible INT we just try to pound the ball 3 times instead. That’s just what I have gathered, that we are trying not to lose vs. trying to put the game away by staying aggressive. Maybe that’s what brillio was trying to say?

by hudd07 on Nov 2, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We did that vs Minnesota

But in no other loss. Obviously the ATL loss was a big margin. And we were trying to come from behind @ Houston. But we never sat on the yesterday. Up 7-3, we passed for two first downs before the INT. Up 7-6 and backed up on the goal line, Raye & Sing went against what they had done al year and called and aggressive 2-min drill. When leading 14-12 we had the beginnings of an effective time consuming drive going, mix of pass an run, when Crabtree fumbled.

I think the players being 7 games into Raye’s system, plus the addition of Crabtree and Smith to the lineup, is causing Raye to be less cautious. This is why I think he has to be graded going forward from the Houston game

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 7:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rathman

Is he really being groomed to take over Raye’s job? Is he responsible for the unnecessary number of carries to Norris? As RB coach, can he be pegged for the development (or more accurately, lack thereof) of Coffee in relation to other mid-round RB draft picks?

by Rep the Bay on Nov 2, 2009 2:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think Mike Johnson is the guy the are grooming at least that is what I heard when he was hired not sure if it still stands true.

I want me some Buster

by gbears16 on Nov 2, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Norris had three carries, two for first downs

How is that unnecessary?

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah it was kind of trick to because they faked to gore and handed it off to Norris

49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha

by 49erSalvatrucha on Nov 2, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good question

The future ain't what it used to be.

by riderless on Nov 2, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Faster RB's have an easier adjustment to running in the league.

Guys like Coffee have to understand finding seams and adjusting to find lanes. Not to mention Coffee doesn’t have running lanes, but in his one carry he made an adjustment and had a pretty good gain. Every offense until now that Rathman has coached with has ben in the top ten in rushing.

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 2, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rathman has ZERO play-calling experience

In an interview (no link, sorry) he mentioned that he just wanted to help at the RB position and wasn’t interested in doing anything else.

Mike Johnson (QB coach) on the other hand, has some play-calling experience from his days in Baltimore.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by chikmagnet_565 on Nov 3, 2009 9:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In an interview (no link, sorry) he mentioned that he just wanted to help at the RB position and wasn’t interested in doing anything else.

I don’t have a link, either, but I remember this. Rathman’s kind of got some time before his pension kicks in, so he wanted to help the young running backs out. I don’t think he has any intention of taking his coaching career beyond being a position coach.

by sfgfan on Nov 3, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I am not ashamed to say that exactly three plays into the season I started chanting “Fire Jimmy Raye!”.

by timhudson on Nov 2, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not the answer

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 2, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It is...

ONLY if it’s to hire Norv Turner. Otherwise I think we should stick with him another year. Like Sing said today, there is a learning curve with Raye too, to see what our team excels at. It’s not like Madden where we try a flea flicker and it works so we do it over and over again. We have to practice it first so it takes a while to feel out this offense. Last Sunday was the first time we had all of our playmakers on the field at one time, and the first start for Smith. Give him some time to Taylor our offense around our playmakers.

by hudd07 on Nov 2, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not crazy about the Jimmy Raye "learning curve" -

- simply because he’s not sound young pup in his first o.c. job.

Firing him midseason would clearly be stupid. You’re not going to replace him with somebody better, and the discontinuity would be a big problem. If the offseason, replacing him depends on there being somebody better potentially available.

by Ronaldinho on Nov 2, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Norv Turner?

Hey why not give the job back to Jim Hostler.

by FiveAlarmFreddy on Nov 3, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

WHAT?

How can you compare Norv Turner to Jim Hostler? With Norv Turner we were one of the better offenses especially when it comes to running the ball. With Hostler, we were a historically BAD offense. i just don’t get how any person with any reasonable amount of knowledge could compare the two. Or rebuttal a call for Norv with Jim Hostler.

by hudd07 on Nov 3, 2009 6:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

With Norv Turner we were one of the better offenses

There’s my rebuttal.

by FiveAlarmFreddy on Nov 6, 2009 11:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sing said in his press conference that Raye has to adapt so maybe Sing is going to have a talk with Raye.

49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha

by 49erSalvatrucha on Nov 2, 2009 2:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Jimmy Raye discussion?

I hope that doesn’t imply that there could be two sides to his argument. The only logical thing to be discussed here is how badly he deserves to be fired. But then again that’s another offensive coordinator and another season.

You can never resist the game... nor could I... we're the same, so don't even try.

by Ninjames on Nov 2, 2009 2:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah unless like Norv Turner is available I don’t see him going any where

49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha

by 49erSalvatrucha on Nov 2, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

Really, people Norv Turner? Uggggghhh

by FiveAlarmFreddy on Nov 3, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

When/IF

Mr. Roper gets fired from San Diego, and if the Niners were to sign him as OC, I can’t see that being a terribly bad idea. He’s a much better version of Jimmy Raye. If the Niners do sign him as an OC however, I’d put it in Norv’s contract that he cannot accept a HC gig for at least 2 seasons.

For the most part, I’m not ready to quit on Raye, but Norv is a great OC, there’s no denying that.

by Andrew Davidson on Nov 3, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed.

I don’t even think we have to make Norv Turner sign something saying he won’t take a HC gig for 2 seasons. I don’t see any team hiring him after what he did with arguably the most talented roster in the league.

But I think we bring in Norv, the offense won’t change much. And stick Johnson behind him to learn. That way if Norv does bounce, we have continuity and can move on from there.

by hudd07 on Nov 3, 2009 6:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Your choice

for a new OC is as vanilla as the plays Jimmy Raye calls.

by FiveAlarmFreddy on Nov 6, 2009 11:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Colts had vanilla plays

Players, execution and the ability to disguise plays within a formation are more important than having exotic play calls. Norv was very good at finding a rhythm in his calls and designing the formations.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 7, 2009 3:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There is definitely two sides to it.

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 2, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember hearing at the beginning of the season they were going to groom Mike Johnson to take over for Raye in a couple years so the offense remains the same but with a new coordinator. I am not sure if they are still planning on him doing that but I don’t think Raye will be around much longer either way.

I want me some Buster

by gbears16 on Nov 2, 2009 6:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've not been a fan of Raye

And yet I have to judge him differently based on pre-Alex vs now. I think the addition of Smith and Crabtree have changed the strengths and ability of the entire offense. How he is able to utilize their strengths and how the entire offense develops cohesion will play into my judging him.

I was less happy with him a few weeks ago; I think the last six quarters he’s done fine. It’s critical to remember that yesterday’s game was on the road against one of the best pass defenses in the league. Calling more passes or more runs or trick plays would not likely have changed the result, as Indy is a top team. Better execution and not turning the ball over is what would’ve won the game. Or giving our offense one final possession in the final six minutes.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 2:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

or scoring in the second half

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 2, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he abandoned the run in the second half and that’s why the Niners lost.

If Bochy coached the Warriors Bengie Molina would start every game at PG.

by cybermaldonado on Nov 2, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How can you run the ball with that line?

by Hoopers Judge on Nov 2, 2009 6:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well.

If you look at the game logs, the 49ers actually ran only twice in the fourth, both times being fairly successful at it. Gore and Coffee went back-to-back at the top of the fourth quarter for a combined 15 yards (seven and eight, respectively). Success on successive downs should imply that you can run still. The 49ers did not run once after that (except for a no-gain nullified by an offside penalty). With over eight minutes remaining and being only four points back and AT LEAST two time outs, the 49ers should have at least ventured into the running world, considering Gore did strike for lightning once earlier on the game.

by sfgfan on Nov 3, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Especially

when you consider that the 49ers were marching into Indy territory after Coffee’s 8-yard burst. What’s the harm in running a few more times on that drive? Worst case scenario, you have to settle for a FG and make it a 1-point game.

Instead, Alex Smith gets sacked, and we punt the ball away.

The Fourth Quarter was hair-pulling to say the least, in terms of offensive balance.

by Andrew Davidson on Nov 3, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But Raye runs too much

Remember… A whole 17 carries.

/sarcasm

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

All hail the Monday morning quarterbacks

If only Raye hadn’t called that incomplete pass or the sack. He shoulda known…

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 3, 2009 7:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It may not seem like much

But when you spread it out over a bunch of 3 and outs it is.

by jonesin25 on Nov 4, 2009 7:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we only had one three and out

Which was the first drive. But I could be wrong.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 4, 2009 9:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure...

… there were at least two or three more. I’m too lazy to load NFL.com (as that site is slow as all heck) to check the play-by-play for the 100th time.

by sfgfan on Nov 4, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I know none was in the second half

We only had four possessions. Each got a least one first down. I think we had one four and out due to our passing for a first down but it got called back due to a phantom holding call on Bass. The only run had one run heavy drive that half and it ended with two first downs before Crabtree’s fumble. It was building up to the second best drive of the game, using time and gaining FP.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 4, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think at one point I heard the announcers say we had 3 and that was sometime in the first half

I want me some Buster

by gbears16 on Nov 4, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Jeebus people

It’s not that hard

Five 3 & outs in the first half, one in the second.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 4, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks I was too lazy to look it up

I want me some Buster

by gbears16 on Nov 4, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Could've happened

Had we gotten that last possession.

We only had four possessions in the entire second half. One ended with a fumble. One made FG range but we got sacked by a 3-man rush. One gained two first-downs before ending with a third down sack. Not sure what Raye could do about that.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

sacked by a 3 man rush

that says it all. We need to get Staley (and Pashos) healthy (really healthy, don’1 rush Staley back) and draft a top OT. Then we will see what Raye can do.

Until then any game in which he keeps Alex Smith healthy is a good game. Seriously, even though our “skill players” are excellent (Davis, Crabtree, Gore and, yes, Smith), Jimmy Raye does not have the normal cards to play as an OC and you can’t judge him without considering the context of glaring O line weaknesses which can be exploited (mercilessly) every week.

by zacksf on Nov 2, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But the answer is to spread out and throw more

Makes sense!!

SARCASM

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 5, 2009 10:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Keep all you loonies in the same bin

This isn’t a thread, it’s a containment chamber.

by bignerd on Nov 2, 2009 7:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

According to Mark Purdy.....

Smith called all the plays on the final drive of the 1st half, aka their best drive of the day:

“The pass to tight end Vernon Davis wasn’t complete. But the incident — followed by a perfect two-minute drill at the end of the first half where Smith also called all his own plays and generated a touchdown — was indicative of how far Smith 2.0 has come.”

http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers-headlines/ci_13692052

Aside from this making Smith look pretty good, it also makes Raye look pretty bad.

by Stoned Slacker on Nov 2, 2009 8:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I read that he only called two plays on that drive

Yet I can’t recall where I read it.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 9:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's his offense how dos it make him look bad?

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 5, 2009 10:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I heard it through the Grapevine



That this job would not soon be mine…oo..oo…I heard it through the Grapevine…honey honey yeah!!
Yours Truly,
Jimmy “The California Raisin” Raye

by Drew K on Nov 2, 2009 8:47 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

OH MY GOD!!!

The resemblance is uncanny. I always thought he looked more like Dan Akroyd in Nothing But Trouble but now I think he looks more like a CA Raisin. LOL.

by hudd07 on Nov 3, 2009 6:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

You got busted by the hot linker.

by bignerd on Nov 3, 2009 7:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Jimmy Raye more than Martz (in terms of offense)

because Gore is actually getting the ball and Vernon Davis gets thrown. I don’t always agree with his play calling, but everything isn’t his fault. When we lost to the Vikings, the defense couldn’t stop them in the end. The Falcons lost was both sides of the ball, everybody’s fault. The Texans game was the offense, but the o-line was horrible in the 1st half.
           I would say that although Jimmy Raye hasn’t been an oustanding OC, but until the O-line is consistent you can’t put too much blame on Raye.

Go 49ers

by iaalexeeff on Nov 2, 2009 9:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Raye vs Payton

As in Sean Payton, HC and play-caller of the Saints and probably the most aggressive play caller in the league.

Tonight, on the final Saints TD drive (11 plays, 81 yards) Payton called a run play on every first down play. Runs to the middle no less. You can imagine if Raye does this, even on a successful 4th quarter TD drive, what people would say about him.

During the game, Gruden noted the Payton had “3000” running plays in the playbook last season (I assume that was hyperbole) but this season cut it down to just a few, as it’s better to perfect what you do and be physical in how you do it. Sounds a great deal like our running philosophy.

Lastly, I watched the run plays of both teams closely. It seemed anecdotally to me that 4 of every 5 runs were in the Center/Guard of Guard/Tackle gap. As in, our favorite play. Both teams, but especially Atlanta, were able to bounce some of these outside because their line had collapsed the defense and created huge cutback crease. Other times they went right up the middle for a handful of yards and occasionally going for more. The difference between them and us? Blocking. I’d also add familiarity, as both QBs, O-lines and skill position players have been in the same system for at least two years (Atlanta) or four years (New Orleans).

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 10:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

okay... exactly the point I was making then?

SF blocking is nowhere near as good as NO or ATL blocking.

If it was, and they were able to actually run for a handful of yards, there would be less of an issue.

A big, physical offensive line is NOT an element of this current SF team. A couple potentally VERY good wideouts, one of the best receiving tight ends in the game, and a QB with a bit of mobility ARE elements of it. Play to the strengths on the team, use the pass to open up the defense for Gore.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 2, 2009 11:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Then we're pretty much in agreement

We still have to call a few more runs than most passing teams (which is what we should now move toward becoming) in light of Gore being one of our best players and our O-line also not excelling at pass blocking. We don’t want to become so predictable the other way that Alex gets injured.

Good thing this week brings us an opponent that will provide less of a challenge at pass defense than Indy.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 12:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's where I am

Whether Raye should stay is something I’ll opine on after the season. With two QBs, new system, rookie WR joining the team a third of the way through, Gore missing three games, rookie RB, second year WR and oh yeah, let’s not forget about the LOL-line, he deserves to be fully graded on a full sample size of sixteen games (and hopefully playoffs).

How this offense is playing in December, o-line aside, will say alot about how the players progressed under him and how he is able to adjust to their skill sets.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 9:24 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah.

Just that it’s being done backwards. The run is getting stuffed, over and over and over again, and because they’re refusing to open up the downfield passing game, the run is going to continue to get stuffed because teams can just keep stacking the box until they’re forced to be honest.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 3, 2009 7:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't see Indy stacking the box

I saw us not able to run very block well, minus four plays and two short FB runs for first downs. But then again, we only ran the ball 17 times so that’s not a bad percentage and is actually better than probably every other game outside of the Seattle game.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 9:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Biggest thing that will keep Raye here...

is his ability to adapt to the players strengths. If the players are chronically not executing then the coaches need to figure out what they can execute and call those plays. If the guards can’t block then don’t run behind the guards. If Raye keeps calling plays that get stuffed he’ll be on the chopping block no matter the ‘execution’ excuse. It’s all about producing, if he can’t produce with what he’s got then good-bye Jimmy.

by shulkdog on Nov 3, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They are so predictable though, that's the problem.

I have been calling about 90% of all plays called correctly this season, it is pathetic. Comparing the Niners to the Falcons and Saints is ridiculous because they use the pass to open up the run. You HAVE the respect their passing game or they will eat you alive. The Niners do not do this and I think they need to. I agree with using Gore more, but they need to find more ways to use him, i.e. the passing game, which I thought they started to do a couple times last week and then went away from it. We all know their o-line is bad, and don’t have a power running game. They have to make these teams get 7 and 8 guys out of the box.

by jonesin25 on Nov 4, 2009 7:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Atlanta uses the run to open the pass

They were one of the most run heavy teams last season. Their first play of the MNF game? A run up the gut. How did the drive end? A TD run up the gut. Same play calls, better blocking than we have.

The ability of Smith and threat of Crabtree have changed who we are going forward, which is a good thing. Our game plan will still be less conservative than Atlanta’s yet more so than New Orleans’. We don’t have the o-line to be dominant in any one phase.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 4, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If My Memory Serves Me Correctly

The 49ers offered this position to Scott Linehan before Jimmy Raye right? Correct me if i am wrong? Then why is Singletary so stuck on standing behind this man?

                 It is ever so apparent that he has yet to grasp where the talent lies on the 49ers. And after 7games that is hard to believe. And even more since Alex Smith and Michael Crabtree got involved in the offense. To some extent i understand his “conservative” play calling when Shaun Hill was QB as he has physical limitations that disables such “liberal” play calling. But since Alex Smith has taken over i have not seen him really adjust the offense to fit our new signal caller. This of course with the exception on the 2nd half against Houston, when we had no choice down 21-0, and in the two minute drill ending the first half yesterday. Barry Sims came in a played good against Freeney after the Staley injury. Why not open up the offense in the 2nd half to fit Smith’s strengths? And the strengths of our playmakers? He cannot have a good answer for that

                     Look at it this way. When in a spready 3 WR/ TE formation the playmakers and our QB have made plays. It fits to their abilities more so then a 2 WR set. Line Crabtree and Morgan out wide with either Bruce/Jones/Hill in the slot and Davis outside the tackle. This will spread the defense wide in order to cover the 3 WR formation, possibly even bring a safety over to cover Crabtree, because in the coming games it will be apparent many QB’s will have a hard time with him in single coverage. This obviously take away the 8 man box and opens up the running game a bit, Davis is still just lined up outside the tackle so he can have a block/receiving option without giving it away to the defense. What this would do is have a spread lane for Smith to pass through, single coverage on Davis most likely from a safety which would be a mismatch and 2 WR’s lined up in single coverage or even all 3 depending on how the defense game plans against Crabtree. Really after all this explaining is it brain surgery?

"Cannot play with them. Cannot win with them. Cannot coach with them. Can't do it. I want winners. I want people that want to win!!!"

by nocal81 on Nov 2, 2009 10:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Define "open up the offense"

I ask only because I think it means different things to different people.

Smith dropped back for 37 pass attempts. Running backs had 17 carries. That’s pretty open to me, especially with your best lineman out injured.

Also, we only had four possessions the entire second half. Two were going well until the fumble and being sacked out of FG range. That’s not enough opportunities to get creative with play calling.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 10:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have seen some difference in the play calling and it makes since to not be in 3Wide all game.
But since Alex Smith has taken over i have not seen him really adjust the offense to fit our new signal caller. This of course with the exception on the 2nd half against Houston, when we had no choice down 21-0, and in the two minute drill ending the first half yesterday. Barry Sims came in a played good against Freeney after the Staley injury. Why not open up the offense in the 2nd half to fit Smith’s strengths? And the strengths of our playmakers? He cannot have a good answer for that

I can’t agree here simply because there were plays called which resulted in 17 yard completions, 20 plus yard completions, and you didn’t get that with Hill. I also agree with what you’re saying as I believe that our offense could be more effective. However both Raye and Sing like using the Fullback, and I think that our 3Wide set should have V Davis working the slot. In motion and lined as a slot option. What it does is creat a mismatch on Davis and make the WR’s jobs easier. You can then use the FB in pass protect and release Gore. I think we would have more options using this personnel, whether the opposite wideout is Bruce or Morgan. I didn’t see much 8 in the box until we ran the wildcat (stupid).

Also there has to be some learning needed on the side of Crabs and Smith, as they are two of our key components and Smith didn’t have reps all season and Crabs missed plenty of the season. I do however see the offense getting better in the future. We had a few drives cut short with bad play, and it just easy to point the finger at the OC. I myself want to also point the finger at the QB coach, simply because of the neglegence to detail. Smith hardly ever looks off the defense (you can blame the O-Line) and often stares down WR’s and this can eventually kill us in the long run, facing a good defense. We pretty much had a better running game this week due to the passing game improving slightly. On another note we need to seriosly consider using Jones and Morgan more than Bruce, we have to be able to stretch the field.

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 3, 2009 1:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Based on Sando's breakdown

We ran WORSE with a FB than without. I know Gore had a breakout season with Norris in 2006 but times have changed, Norris is close to 60 years old now and not the same FB he was. If it ain’t working, fix it….

by hudd07 on Nov 5, 2009 12:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

we ran worse with a FB

because the defense brings in an extra defender for run support when Norris is on the field. In other words, the team needs to pass once and a while when Norris is on the field to get the D a little more honest.

by Andrew Davidson on Nov 5, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's the vote of confidence.

Whether or not he wants to stand behind Raye, he has to for the sake of the players continuing to play hard. If Singletary even wavers the players will stop executing even worse than they have so far. And effectively throwing in the towel for the season.

by shulkdog on Nov 3, 2009 9:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

oh my goodnes

that is hilarious

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 5:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Very funny

The future ain't what it used to be.

by riderless on Nov 3, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You Can Call "Passing Plays"And You Can Call Passing Plays

How many of those 37 drop backs were in a spread/shotgun formation? Most likely between 7-10 right? At least looking at the games replay that is what i saw. You can pass more often without actually opening up the offense. By this i mean it is possibly that Raye believes “opening” up the offense is just passing more. And that isn’t the case. a 2 WR formation although passing isn’t really opening up the offense much.

                   I want to see 3 or 4 WR sets out of the shotgun, or spread sets behind center with Davis outiside the tackle so you have a run/pass option. Get what i am saying?

"Cannot play with them. Cannot win with them. Cannot coach with them. Can't do it. I want winners. I want people that want to win!!!"

by nocal81 on Nov 2, 2009 10:49 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'd be interested to have someone break that down

How many WRs on the field especially. My guess on how many were “spread” formations would be closer to 15. I’d guess shotgun on 8-10, including the sack out of FG range and our final offensive play of the game, the Mathis sack. I actually thought the offense looked professional and confident for the first time this season. They just turned the ball over on two drives that were moving and only had four possessions in the second half. It’s also a tough week to judge him, considering that Indy has a very good pass-rushing defense and Staley was out.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 2, 2009 11:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I do, but or O-Line is not good enough to stretch the field, we can't even successfully block three DL's with 5 OL!!

I do believe we could have ran the draw out of the Shotgun, and the Shotgun would have been the way to beat the Colts. You have to make the Colts play from behind and that’s when Manning will make bad throws forcing the football. Our QB coach needs to spend some time with Smith on looking off defenders and selling PA fakes and the Draw, his technique is pretty suspect in these areas.

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 3, 2009 1:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Best bignerd post evah.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Nov 3, 2009 12:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To add...

It perfectly illustrates the tone of this thread.

Every week, the posters here plan out what the 49ers should do on offense or defense, then when it doesn’t turn out the way they planned and the 49ers lose, or for that matter win, they shout:

WTF? WHY DIDN’T THEY DO THAT!?!?!

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Nov 3, 2009 12:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Yes rlott#42, Crabtree...needs to hold onto the ball

by 10forTech on Nov 7, 2009 7:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

wait a minute

all of those plays are 4 WR sets! that’s sooooo inaccurate.

(rec’d)

by Andrew Davidson on Nov 3, 2009 6:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a second.

Flashing text? Hax.

[btw, that’s not the shotgun]

by sfgfan on Nov 3, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, I want my text to flash

That’d mean I could put my trenchcoat away.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope

I am just stating some common sense. When you have a QB that is more comfortable in a certain offense and playmakers that excel in that same offense why not run it?

                     I understand that soles running the spread offense doesn’t work in the NFL but if you mix it in then it can become another tool. They have to some extent, i just want to see more

"Cannot play with them. Cannot win with them. Cannot coach with them. Can't do it. I want winners. I want people that want to win!!!"

by nocal81 on Nov 3, 2009 12:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Denver and New England use a "spread type offense"

They have lineman that can block though. You can’t argue you have to have a GREAT Qb, it’s Kyle F’in Orton.

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 3, 2009 1:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Who would you rahter have as HC? ...

Singletary or Josh McDaniels? Even McDaniels scaled his offense down a bit in DEN due to personnel. How long has Raye seen Smith in action? Smith hasn’t seen a meaningful snap in over a season plus. Crabtree played in his second game and wasn’t even in camp. The O-line is a patchwork leaky dike one more injury away from being a disaster. 3 weeks ago, the 49ers had no talent at WR. Now, they have a boatload of talent at WR.

In SEP, Shaun Hill was a game manger whose leadership skillz and who also “winz da gamez” was enough to get the 49ers into the playoffs, despite the paucity of offense who also had a huge problem on 3rd down. “But it’s not Hill’s fault. IT’S THE O-LINE!!!”. Just how is that oline now without Staley, the 49ers best lineman who wasn’t playing that well to begin with? Of course, when it came to actually wanting a better QB to be able to pass the ball, the word on the street was “Oh no, we don’t want Smith at QB, because he will throw INTS and lose da gamez”. Now everybody want’s to air it all out with Smith at QB, because of one half of football. The 49ers didn’t lose the IND game because they didn’t air it out. They lost because they couldn’t stop Manning not airing it out getting first downs on their final drive. IND had 12 points off of FG’s. The 49ers had one long run for a TD, and one good drive to get them a TD in the first half. A delay of game penalty and a sack put the out of FG range to keep it close enough to get at least one more possession and another FG to win it wasn’t the fault of Raye or Sing. It’s the result of an offense that is still new to each other, with a banged up o-line, a QB just getting his feet wet again, and a rookie who wasn’t in camp.

There is no such thing as common sense on this board.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Nov 3, 2009 1:10 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree...

Let’s all be a bit realistic, rational. Is Raye ideal, I don’t think so, but he is no idiot. In the first few weeks he and Sing were just waiting for Smith to be ready to play and with Hill in the lineup there was only so much he could do. Hill is jut not starter material, plain and simple. I anticipate the offense making greater improvement this weekend against he worst defensive unit even with Staley out. I think they simply need to build confidence and more time to come together as a unit. This will be only the second time this offensive unit has started all season.We all need to lay off Raye a bit and let them develop a bit. He’s not stupid, and far more knowledgeable regarding football than anyone on this blog, even if he is slower than a turtle. Next year we will have an improved O-line a new O-line coach and Alex Smith and the boys will be running on all cylinders. And hopefully Nate Davis will be traded or released putting an end to all talk about him replacing Smith.

by N.Y.C. Niner on Nov 3, 2009 5:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am definitely starting Crabtree next week

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 3, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with NYC niner and drummer

as you can see from my post below.

Let’s be realistic about the Oline Raye and Sing have to work with.

And they have done a great job beginning the rehabilitation of Alex Smith in the midst of significant adversity (i.e.playing strong defenses with a weak Oline).

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

get your own avatar

I saw the avatar, started reading your post thinking it was mine and was like, I DIDN"T WRITE THIS. Went down to the date, was like, no way I wrote this. THEN finally looked at who wrote it.

Please find your own so people don’t confuse us.

by hudd07 on Nov 3, 2009 6:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

see that little red word at the far left under the posts?

it’s your username. that prevents confusion as to who is writing what. you silly rabbit.

by Andrew Davidson on Nov 3, 2009 6:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm AGAINST the shotgun/spread, but FOR creativity.

anybody remember this game?
http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=270923023

This feels like a looong time ago—back before Alex’s shoulder injury, before Mike Martz, before JustTurnOvers, before Rossum was part of the 49ers (in fact, he took a TD back against the Niners in this game).
The reason why I bring it up is because it was one of the games in which the play calling was actually decent. And that was with Jim Hostler as the OC. Hostler kept the Steelers defense off balance by calling counters in the run game, I think there was an end around for Arnaz Battle taken for 8 yards, and in the pass game there were play action passes and roll-outs that took advantage of Smith’s mobility.
Let me reiterate: Jim Hostler kept the Steelers off-balance.
 The Niners 2007 offense was craptastic as the 2008 offense under JTO was turnover-tastic. Yet the Niners were in the game until halftime.
You can say that the Niners are having protection issues, but what I have seen is a lack of creativity by Jimmy Raye. He has avoided play action like the plague (they’ve maybe run about 4 play-action passes the last 2 games), he avoids roll-outs, he avoids making Smith anything but a pocket passer.

I’m not a big shotgun advocate because it hurts your run game, and I think an offensive philosophy which strives for balance is actually a good thing in terms of time-of-possession/ball control and not throwing the ball away. But there are many ways to do that. Calling more off-tackle runs, calling more pitches, calling screens, and then calling play-action passes off of that—that’s how you slow opposing defenses down.
You can say you want to go strength-on-strength and give your o-line a chance to just drive the d-line off the line. But chances are that the d-line is going to be stronger and meet your o-line faster if they know that the dive play is coming.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 7:33 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

create this!

you are for “creativity”? How about creating an all-pro left tackle to anchor our offensive line? Can you do that? Then let’s talk about creativity.

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How about the fact that

Hostler—Hostler!—was calling a less predictable offensive game with a decidedly less talented offensive line. The point is that predictable calls make bad offensive lines look worse.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't believe that

can you support that with a player-by-player analysis?

(Not sack stats, please. Raye is covering the weakness of this line with his game plan.)

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here are the names and number of games started in 2007

I’m assuming you mean you don’t believe that the line was less talented

Snyder 11—a couple of years less experienced, played both guard spots and Left Tackle (!); hardly the all-pro you’re asking for
Jennings 5—strong player, yes, when healthy, but was nicked and missed time in 2 of the 5 games he played in
Allen 13—just a terrible pass protector. Good in the run game, though.
Heitmann 16—coming back from a leg injury. Consensus was that he wasn’t nearly as good in 2007 as he was in 2008.
Baas 8—a couple of years less experienced, really his first starting experience.
Smiley 8—yes, a decided upgrade at guard here.
Staley 16—a rookie, starting at RT, the opposite side from what he calls his “natural position”

As I said, the point is that predictable calls make bad offensive lines look worse.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Leading receivers for that game were Darrell Jackson and Taylor Jacobs. While our offensive line consisted of Kwame “the bust” Harris as well as a washed up Larry Allen. Oh yeah and Arnaz Battle was out #1 receiver. Today isn’t he #5?

"Cannot play with them. Cannot win with them. Cannot coach with them. Can't do it. I want winners. I want people that want to win!!!"

by nocal81 on Nov 3, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

mercifully, Kwame didn't get any starts that year, though he did get some run.

Darrell Jackson was the #1 guy, Battle was the #2. Not a strong offensive group.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hostler was the most predictable that I've ever seen

And uncreative. I think time has caused you to forget how bad it was.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m limiting my comments to this particular game. In fact, to the 1st half of this game. I know he was terrible.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought play calling in this game was the best it's been all season

Especially when you consider the quality of opponent and losing Staley. Good drives ended with turnovers (2), penalty (1), and sacks (2). We also only had four possessions the entire second half. Not many chances.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My comment was about the play calling in general

There are many ‘standard’ weapons that Raye just doesn’t use very often:
roll-out right or left
sprint right or left
play-action to roll-out
play-action pass
stretch play
pitch
end-around
reverse
TE or HB screen
delayed hand-off
All of these can be run out of a standard formation, and many of them would take advantage of Smith’s mobility more than he has been.
You’re right., though, some of his calls this past game were dictated by Staley going out—VD and Gore stayed in to block more often.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I seem to remember Alex Smith rolling out twice last game on what looked to me like designed plays. He did this little spin thing both times to get himself turned in the right direction.

I could be wrong that they were designed, though.

Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.

by howtheyscored on Nov 3, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Alex's 'spin'

What’s remarkable about that is that that ‘spin’ actually makes the roll-out take longer to develop. So if Raye is ‘protecting the QB’ with his play-calling, then what’s up with that aspect of those plays?

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

VD staying in was under-reported

I didn’t notice it during the game but not having him in pass patterns during the 2nd half was big, especially with the season he is having. I also noticed the dumpoffs to Gore seemed to gain a few more yards than other games and I have to think that our willingness to pass up the field puts LBs and Safeties further back.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

yes, having safeties back matters

I loved seeing Frank Gore getting the ball matched up against guys one-on-one. There’s a reason he led the team in receptions 2 years in a row. When Jimmy Raye says that Frank is the ‘bell cow’ I though initially that he meant that the offense would feature more of these types of plays than it has.
You also are probably right when you say (below) that Raye may need to be graded differently pre-and-post Alex. Clearly Alex is a better QB for Raye’s offense.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

remember to LOL-Line

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 5, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

" The Niners 2007 offense was craptastic as the 2008 offense under JTO was turnover-tastic. Yet the Niners were in the game until halftime."

If being in the game until halftime is a sign of success, then clearly last Sunday’s game was a success, as we actually LED at halftime.

I’m boggled that you point to that game, in which we scored only 16 points, in which Alex Smith and Frank Gore were WORSE than they were on Sunday, as a success.

by Ronaldinho on Nov 3, 2009 8:31 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

reply fail?

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by chikmagnet_565 on Nov 3, 2009 9:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah.

That was in reply to grantmp.

by Ronaldinho on Nov 3, 2009 10:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The reason I point to that game

Was for the kind of play calling. People are obsessed (in this thread at least) with the idea that you’ve got to go shotgun allatime in order to get the offense running. My point was that that’s simply not the case. You can have a balanced and creative offense that’s still coming out of standard formations. I wasn’t saying that that was the ‘measure of success’. Clearly I think that this offense is ahead of the 2007 offense.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What? No shotgun? No Spread Offense?

You mean the 49ers can have an effective offense without running these gimmicks into the ground?

You should really stay off those thread, you’re not knee jerk enough.

by bignerd on Nov 3, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Reality check

Earlier in the season, Pashos, who was cut by the Jaguars, was good enough to start for our niners. That suggests that our offensive line was, at that point in time, already suspect.

Now let’s look at what has happened since then. Pashos was hurt, replaced by someone presumably less ready or able. Staley, our best offensive tackle and lineman, hurt. We are now into the replacements of the replacements. And you are judging Raye by what he does each week as if he had a normal situation to work with? This is not normal! It is code red, all hand on deck. I credit Raye and Singletary with a lot of guts, creativity and intelligence to keep the ship afloat at all and provide a semblance of a normal offense in the face of the Oline catastrophe.

For real fans to criticize at this time is cannabalism and destructive to the positive ethos of the team. Talking about play-action, plays that might take 3 seconds to develop, with this offensive line? That is fantasy football!

The reason that it is so important for us to understand this now, is that the future of the 49ers looks very bright, better than it has ever been since the Walsh, Montana, Young era. (During which, btw, we had strong offensive lines. Players like Farnhorst, Cross, Ayers, Sapulo, etc.)
We have 2 1’s in the next draft. Staley will be healthy again. We have great “skill players” and very fixable problems.

Best case scenario: we draft an outstanding OT who anchors our offensive line. Staley gets healthy. Two or three of our current offensive lineman step up and win spots on a competitive, coherent offensive line in 2010. They play with coherence and continuity enabling our “skill players” to show what they can really do.

Don’t rush Staley back. Draft wisely (sepecially Oline). Get off Raye’s back (and Singletary). The niners will be in the NFC championship game in 2010-2011 season.

  • Key stat:
    The 49ers have the league’s lowest rating on so-called power runs, which are described as running plays on third or fourth down with two or fewer yards to go.
    (This is a measure of the weakness of our current offensive line, mostly from before Staley was hurt!)

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 12:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

IMO, this ‘key stat’ is a function of the fact that the Niners have called more power runs than anybody else

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well.

I definitely agree that isn’t really much of a measurement for the “weakness” of the offensive line. I think it’s got loads more to do with how predictable Raye is in those situations (i.e. how many times has he opted to throw in third and short?). Hmm, I guess that also coincides with what you said.

In summary, I agree!

by sfgfan on Nov 3, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the answer to "how many times is..."

Once. And Bruce caught it for an 18 yard gain. That’s a perfect example.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But Grant, and sfgfan, i think that you will acknowledge

that the offensive line is not quite where we would want it to be? And that we would like to see OT be a 1st-round priority in the next draft? Do we agree on that?

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The offensive line...

… is definitely bad, and there is really no disputing that fact.

However, bad offensive lines can still be a part of a productive offense. The 49ers (and Raye) are failing to do this not only because they aren’t playing well enough (i.e. execution), but the predictable play calling is putting them in a position where the defense can make it even more difficult for them to execute well.

Think about it this way, the 49ers will run when a lot of people will expect them to run, and they will pass when a lot of teams will expect them to pass. The amount of times they run in third and short makes it even more difficult for them to succeed in those situations because the defense knows it’s coming. Also, the amount of times they pass when they’re down makes it difficult for them to produce in those situations because the defense knows it’s coming.

Jimmy Raye calling TWO running plays in ALL OF THE FOURTH QUARTER when down by only four points is inexcusable, bad offensive line or not.

by sfgfan on Nov 3, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s conjecture. Could easily argue trying to pass on 1st down would leave them with too many 2nd and 10’s for them to effectively deal with.

The entire NFL runs on 1st down and passes on 3rd down. The entire league is predictable.

by bignerd on Nov 3, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But...

Neither of those situations, are situations I’m even discussing here.

Even if all teams run on first and pass on third downs, it’s inexcusable for Raye not to call more than two running plays in the fourth quarter when down only four (especially when those two runs, which were back to back, were pretty successful).

by sfgfan on Nov 3, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

to a certain extent this is arguing about fine points

Good play calling is all about setting people up—and you need context to understand when a dive play is or is not what the defense will be expecting. Stats don’t always show that. I feel like I can comment on what the Niners are doing offensively because I watch the games and have seen Jimmy Raye, who seems to think that he’s going to surprise people by calling dive play after dive play.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Our run plays

Match most of what Atlanta and N.O. ran last night. They just block better and bounce runs outside because the d-line has been collapsed. Better line play makes Raye look smarter.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Michael Turner single-handedly dragging the entire NO defense 15 yards near the end of that game was awesome.

Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.

by howtheyscored on Nov 3, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that's what we need

one player.

A dominant OT (preferably left).

Then Smith, Crabtree, Davis and Gore will emerge as what they are. 1st round draft picks and NFL stars.

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well, we need that and for the guards (Baas? and Chilo) to grow into their potential.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gore was a 3rd round pick.

Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.

by howtheyscored on Nov 3, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We had a shot at one and took Crabtree

If you loved the pick don’t complain about the results

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 5, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I love the extra first rounder we received from Carolina, even though Phil Loadholt was still on the board.

I’d take Crabtree over Oher still to this very day though. I also will not question that extra first round pick unless the FO screws it up next draft.

It would’ve been nice to get an OT in the first or second rounds, but I’m much happier having Crab and an extra 2010 first rounder. Why? Because we’re still a heckuva ballclub with plenty of room to grow and I don’t think a rookie OT would’ve been as big a difference as Crabtree will be this season.

Ironically, we’ll likely have to rely on one having a huge impact next season though.

by Andrew Davidson on Nov 5, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree. Oher would have made a major impact this season. He would have been a huge upgrade at OT. Better pass protection and he’s great in the run game. The guy is a beast and consistently opens up holes. He would have plugged into Singletary’s offensive plan better.

by bignerd on Nov 5, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wanted Oher before the draft ...

On the other hand, part of the reason I wanted him because I was skeptical that a WR could really be a difference-maker.

But Crabtree really does look like the real deal, so I’m not going to second-guess the pick. I would have loved to have Oher, but I’m pretty happy with Crabs.

Our offensive line is our #1 area of need right now – far outstripping pass-rusher (our pass rush has been fine this year, not great, but not a major problem). Given that Everette Brown hasn’t yet been a difference-maker for Carolina for the Panthers, the only big mistake our FO seemed to make this off-season was the Marvel signing.

by Ronaldinho on Nov 5, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was always thinking trade that pick to the Lions for their next two

Pick 20 in the first and pick one of the second. Oher and Darius Butler would have worked out better for our current situation. Oher will be a franchise OL, just wait and see. Actualy after the game with Jared Allen, one shouldn’t question the stability. We still would have had our 2nd and 4th to get the Panthers 1st. Butler and Oher and a 1st next year is a far better situation than now. We could have grabbed Loadholt as well instead of Butler, we could have made that draft great.

"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco

by rlott#42 on Nov 5, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That was one of the best runs I’ve ever seen.

Never give up, never surrender!

The future ain't what it used to be.

by riderless on Nov 3, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And a Galaxy Quest fan, to boot.

Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.

by howtheyscored on Nov 3, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

D line has been collapsed...

SpurredOn has it right.

How many times do you hear an announcer say,
“the defensive line has been collapsed” (or word to that effect)

or, even more tellingly, have you ever heard the phrase:

“Smith back to throw. Smith has time.”

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right

He’s calling an ISO play, an ISO-motion play, and an Off-Centre play (as opposed to Off-Tackle).

and yeah, I’m just kidding around.

by Andrew Davidson on Nov 5, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

4th & 1 vs Atlanta

Was a PA-pass that was caught by Vernon for about 8 yards. We also had two power runs on 3rd & 1 vs Indy and Norris got firsts on both.

I really think Raye has to be graded differently, pre-Alex and post-Alex. Because the ability of the offense is completely different.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

also a good example

the 3rd & 1s aren’t just power rushes, though. He also had some action with Frank Gore faking a run off-tackle. The open-hand ‘toss’ gives defenders just enough pause for Norris to get the first down.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 3, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s going to be rough the rest of the year on offense with Barry Sims and Adam Synder as the starting OTs. If Chilo and Baas don’t improve and step up their game it’s going to get ugly quickly.

by bignerd on Nov 3, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or if we suffer another injury up front

OK line depth has gone to no depth at all.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pashos

Was cut because he refused to take a pay cut and they had just drafted two tackles. Not because of an inability to play

"Cannot play with them. Cannot win with them. Cannot coach with them. Can't do it. I want winners. I want people that want to win!!!"

by nocal81 on Nov 3, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the clarification

i did not realize that…

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of Alex Smith Kool-aide, Sing and Raye:

If someone had told me that with Pashos hurt and then Staley hurt, they would begin playing Alex Smith, and start “rehabilitating” him along with a rookie wide-out… with almost no time to throw, against Feeney and the Colts, etc…

I would have said that was crazy and impossible.

I would like acknowledge that accomplishment, which is impressing the hell out of the rest of the league right now.

Yes, I am drinking the Kool-aide. Damn right I am drinking the Kool-aide.

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 2:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Niner kool aid is awesome.

49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha

by 49erSalvatrucha on Nov 3, 2009 10:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maiocco reported on the playcalling today

An insightful perspective:

“As I understand it, the 49ers have their basic two-minute package that consists of three wide receivers, tight end Vernon Davis and running back Frank Gore. They run many of those plays out of the shotgun formation. But if they want to use that offense during the regular course of the game, they don’t have the kind of variety with their play-calling and their adjustments to what the defense is doing. In other words, the 49ers might be able to have success in the short term, but then the defense quickly sees everything the 49ers have to offer and, maybe, there aren’t enough adjustments to stay ahead of the curve.”
_____________________________________________________

Past the fact that the Niners probably don’t have on their staff the creative offensive mind necessary to adapt the offense on the fly, they probably don’t even have enough practice time at this point to make a new offense effective.

They did do it to some extent last season, shifting to Shaun Hill, but I think Martz is just much better suited for that kind of task than Raye or anyone else on the Niners staff.

by Stoned Slacker on Nov 3, 2009 2:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I can sort of see/understand that.

The question one should then ask is: isn’t it possible to instill more of these plays during the week? I’m pretty certain that not all the plays run on Sunday were practiced during the previous week, so couldn’t more “spread” type plays be worked in during the practice week?

by sfgfan on Nov 3, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe they should go

no huddle

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Nov 3, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Malocco neglected to mention

that Vernon Davis had to stay and block on pass plays to help a weak Oline. That kind of negates his whole point and analysis. I agree that he writes an interesting article, but I think he is being too clever this time, and missing the obvious thing: that an injury ridden, weak offensive line is the 49ers #1 problem.

by zacksf on Nov 3, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is true

Looking at what Alex Smith did at the close of the 1st half and you’ll see basically three, maybe four plays/formations. If you did that all the time it would be really easy for the defense to game plan against it.

by smileyman on Nov 3, 2009 5:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, let me get this straight

When you’re trying to run a 2 minute offense and don’t want to waste time, you might have a predetermined package of plays so that you don’t have to sub guys in and out and everybody can quickly line up the same way every time while the QB/coach decided which play to run rather than waiting for the QB/coach to figure out which play to run, make the call, then everybody figures out where they’re supposed to line up, and finally runs over there (wasting precious time)? What a crazy idea!

The formation and plays can change every week, but a 2 minute drive really works best if you have a set list of plays out of one or similar formations. Everybody knows the formation. Used on one drive, this can be effective. Over an entire game, not so much. But the best part is that the defense won’t know your 2 minute formation/package of plays because it changes from game to game.

Hint: It’s also it easier for a QB to “call his own drive” he’s choosing, possibly randomly, between 5-8 plays in that week’s “2 minute package,” it still required Alex Smith to have a certain “readiness for the unexpected” when dealing with the no radio issue, and that is an excellent quality for a QB to have, but it’s not like he dissected the Indy defense with surgical precision using a vast knowledge of a 500 play playbook. He chose a few plays from the formation they’d decided to use that week.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 3, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What I was addressing was the complaint from people

asking why we don’t run that offense all the time. Yeah in a short 2 min drill you don’t want a lot of plays to choose from, but it’s not realistic to be able to run an entire game plan off your two-minute drill.

by smileyman on Nov 3, 2009 8:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry...

I’m just kinda a sarcastic guy. It wasn’t really meant to be mocking you necessarily, just the idea that “Hey, let’s run that offense we ran in the last 2 minutes all the timez!”

And it’s clear that Maiocco doesn’t quite understand the “2 minute offense” theory.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 3, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maiocco was responding to a common criticism

And seemed to do it pretty well. They don’t have the time (nor probably the expertise) to change to a spread-out passing offense for more than a couple minutes a game. There is too much time-consuming work that has to be done in the offseason to do so.

What didn’t Maiocco understand about it? Or was that also sarcasm?

by Stoned Slacker on Nov 4, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought this was more telling from Mat
This is also the reason why it’s imperative that teams maintain continuity on offense. Raye’s first priority in the offseason was to install the team’s offense. The Colts, for instance, can do all kinds of complex things with their offense because offensive coordinator Tom Moore has been with the Colts since 1998.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 8:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

But I wonder about other people

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 9:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not even sure what Tom Moore does these days. I wonder if his headphones are even plugged in. I could make wondering old man jokes but I like the guy.

It’s just that Peyton Manning clearly appears to be to OC. The two easiest jobs in football are Colts backup QB and Colts OC. I’d take both those jobs, contribute next to nothing and Manning would make me look great. Moore could be offensive Bill Belichick of offense and I’d never know.

by bignerd on Nov 3, 2009 8:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Peyton is simply scary with how much he knows

I’m sure he’ll end up as an OC somewhere when he’s done playing. Smartest football player around I think.

by smileyman on Nov 3, 2009 8:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But give Moore credit for being the foundation

Obviously Manning deserves accolades for being so obsessive about his craft and mastering everything from his own playbook to every teams defense. But Moore was there when Manning started and helped in some way to develop an offense that fit his QB. Moore has been around as long as Raye, and though his offenses have been more passing based than Raye, there is something to be said for having a veteran coach bring along young players.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Nov 3, 2009 9:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn’t taking any credit away from Moore on establishing the offense.

by bignerd on Nov 3, 2009 10:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Colts offense, continuity, and Peyton's 'genius'

I have a buddy who is a Colts fan and who has probably been spoiled by so many years of success…but he is convinced that the Colts offense is very predictable. What he says about it is that the Colts offense is very basic. There are actually very few plays in the playbook. The difference is this: the Colts run those few plays very well. They are able to execute them so well that even if the defense knows they’re coming (even if only in outline), they are able to run them for yards.
Why are they able to execute so well?
1) They have had continuity. This has been said better than I can say it here.
2) Peyton Manning knows how to adapt the play calling for the way the defense is aligned. Peyton’s ‘chicken dance’ really does matter. The Colts run numerous different plays—each of which exploits a different aspect of the defense—out of the same sets. This means that the defense can’t just read the alignment and react being confident that they’ve pinned down what play the offense will be running.
3) Because they know the plays so well, they can make adjustments to them based on the scheme of the opponent. This is where the preparation of the Colts takes what they do on offense to the next level. Apparently Manning and Moore will adjust the landmarks for their offensive plays according to what they see on film. I guess all teams do this to greater or lesser degrees.
I don’t know if this makes Peyton a genius, but it is impressive, and I’m glad I’m around to see him work.

What makes this relevant to the Niners is that it points to just how ridiculous it has been that the team has had 7 coordinators in 7 seasons. McCarthy, Turner, Hostler, Martz, Raye—each of these guys has significantly different ideas about what an offense should look like: McCarthy—WCO, slants, hitches, everything you see in Green Bay these days, Turner/Coryell—digit system, rollouts, power running, Hostler—well, who knows?, Martz—7-step drops, max protect, 60% pass/run ratio, Raye, power running, digit system, more power running. Execution gets better with more time, and the fact that Raye was hired with an eye to keeping continuity going longer term (Mike Johnson being the OC-in-waiting) can only be a good thing in my eyes. We do have to have some patience here.

Morgan breaks through in 2009!

by grantmp on Nov 4, 2009 8:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am on your side

The Colts offense is predictable and the worst thing the 49ers can do is change coordinators again. Lets try something different, lets actually keep an OC for the 2nd season.

by bignerd on Nov 4, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

to me

It seems very difficult to sort out the ‘coaching’ from the ‘execution’. Especially from the outside. I would presume than Sing and the coaching staff actually discuss what they are trying to do internally, and they can evaluate whether or not it’s working to what extent.

We “know” that Sing and Raye want to run the ball, and control the game. We KNOW that they are singularly unsucessful at doing that. But are they unsuccessful because the Defense knows too? Or because they just can’t block? Or because they don’t know “the system” well enough… Or because they don’t adjust well to the defensive adjustments?

Even assuming you had a infinite amount of time to review game film… how would you even distinguish this? I guess at some superficial level you could look at defensive alignment, and offensive play called and try to judge how badly “fooled” they were at the snap… but I think fans overrate deception in play calling and underrate stuff like blocking and tackling.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Nov 4, 2009 8:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

'a conservative coach'

per link above:

During this conservative stretch to open the second half, Smith threw behind Isaac Bruce for one incompletion. Crabtree lost a fumble on another play. More reasons for a conservative coach to pull back. His team was still leading the game, anyway. Don’t screw it up.

Maybe my one complaint about Raye is he’s too conservative. Going for the throat is sometimes a necessity.

Yes rlott#42, Crabtree...needs to hold onto the ball

by 10forTech on Nov 7, 2009 7:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Jimmie Raye

He is GARBAGE. Enough said

by JuvDogg on Nov 10, 2009 7:17 PM PST reply actions   0 recs


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