Running Game off tackle
by zonedogs on Nov 2, 2009 5:46 PM PST
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PrintI have noticed something in the last few games. Running up the middle vs off tackle. We have called almost 90% of our runs up inside the tackles. I know that we have been successful up the middle 3 or 4 times(ie Frank-the-beast-Gore) but I do feel that we would also benefit from some off tackle runs with TE seal blocks. Especially now that VD has alot of respect. Let the Goreinator do something in space.
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only in the Vikings game did the Niners try to get something outside.
Morgan breaks through in 2009!
I don’t remember the Seattle one, but the Vikings one failed miserably. Although it was a bit of an errant toss and catch by Hill/Coffee.
by Badly Browned on Nov 3, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions
Hey zonedogs, do you mind moving this question into the official Jimmy Raye post? I know it’s got a poll attached to it, but the post doesn’t cover a lot of new ground and you’ll probably get more feedback up there.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
No?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 2, 2009 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
he's runnig off of a solid tackle in a scheme he's been in for two years
Our running backs don’t get to the tackle when they try. Not sure what you’re seeing.
"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco
Atlanta and New Orleans are running 80% of all rushes where we do
The difference is they break some of them outside, where their line has pummeled people. If our line blocks that well, Gore would also bounce outside some and get more yard up the middle, just like Turner and Thomas in the MNF game.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
yes it would be good to run off tackle more
but this question is probably a lot better addressed in the “Official Jimmy Raye FanPost”
that’s kind of the point of making “official _ fanposts”…. to limit to amount of new fanposts like this one. Not that this isn’t a good thing to discuss – just would be better to keep everything in one place.
A hearty thank you to Rich Aurilia for all the good memories, and to the Niners for finally getting the uni's (mostly) right.
true dat, true dat
But I think a lot of times, these questions get lost in a HUGE thread, no? So it’s better to create your own individual thread that’s much more specific and to the point. That way we don’t have a bunch of posters asking their own personal questions and competing for attention all at the same time.
Also, and this is for those who have slow internet connections, it helps to create a separate thread because having everything in one place really slows down the loading process, and that’s always a pain in the rear end.
I like your little comment/signature below about Richie. One of my favorite giants of ALL time. I even like him better than barry (mostly because of the attitude). :)
by Waiting4JoshMorgan on Nov 4, 2009 1:50 AM PST up reply actions
According to Football Outsiders
The Niners run it between the two guards 69% of the time, tied for second most often in the NFL with the Jaguars. Only the Browns run it up the middle more at 72% of the time.
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 2, 2009 10:25 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
And the Browns are a good team.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 3, 2009 8:01 AM PST up reply actions
You have cause and effect backwards here.
Teams runs inside because their o-line is not strong enough to run outside. It’s much harder to lose yards running between the guards.
Well, I didn’t mean to imply any sort of cause and effect relationship. It’s just disheartening to see 49ers and Browns in the same sentence.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 3, 2009 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
The Niners, Colts, and Pats are all NFL teams.
You feel better now? ;-)
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 3, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
Much!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 3, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
You can not run outside if your o-line is getting pushed around
Up the middle, you’re meeting strength with strength and you have your RB charging at defenders, he has a chance to make a play.
But when you run wide without an offensive line push, bad things happen. The defenders get penetration and a chance to trip the runner up. If they don’t trip the runner up, he still has to run backwards to avoid them. Rather than hitting the corner hard and making a sharp cut, he’s getting strung out with his momentum taking him away from the line of scrimmage in the wrong direction. This gives the LBs and SS plenty of time to close the distance and make a play.
So far...
Fumble.
I was "Deific16"
The cake is a lie.
by Sultan of Seitan on Nov 3, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions
don't think Gore has the speed or moves to get outside
he is a between the tackles runner, we just don’t have the line, or the scheme to allow it to payoff. I don’t care how good our line is, they can’t block 9 people with 5.
Yup
we should run off tackle more. We have guys who are pretty good at run blocking off tackle (e.g. Vernon Davis and Josh Morgan, he motions all the time to the sides). If anything, running off tackle helps to change things up a bit, so that way defenses can’t really predict the plays as well.
I don’t think Raye gives Gore enough credit, and to a certain extent I don’t think fans give gore enough credit as well, when talking about his speed. From watching Gore since he was drafted in 05, the guy is pretty good at getting to the outside, and he isn’t strictly a “in-between-the-tackles” type of runner that everyone makes him out to be. It just so happens that that’s his specialty. We have plenty of video evidence (see NFL.com) to prove that he’s pretty good rushing to the outsides. Unfortunately, Raye appears to be too stubborn and mentally stiff to change things up, which is kinda ironic and inaccurate for me to say because he does call the wildcat. hahaha…
by Waiting4JoshMorgan on Nov 4, 2009 1:58 AM PST reply actions
Having a good-blocking TE and WR can help with your wide runs ...
But really it’s about your RT, RG, and LG.
It’s hard to generalize, because it depends on the defensive alignment (there was a good post on this on smart football recently, I’d encourage you to check it out) but for example, often against a 3-4 on a run to the right, the RT’s job is to cover the LB on that side. The RG blocks out into the defensive end. The center blocks down (against the direction of the play) on the NT and the LG pulls to provide lead blocking. The LT protects the backside and covers the hole created by the pulling LG, either blocking out the DE or stopping a LB from shooting the gap.
Having the TE on that side gives you another blocker, he usually takes out the strong safety. THe WR just has to occupy his man, but that usually only becomes an issue on longer runs – generally that CB won’t have an opportunity to make the play until the run is already a successful play.
But look at that for a second. The key blocks are by the LG, RG, and RT.
Not exactly the guys who have been lighting it up for us this year.
The presence of Morgan and Davis might help create big plays once the runner is downfield, but getting him out of the backfield has been our problem so far this year, with first contact coming behind, or at, the line of scrimmage on a lot of plays.
Point well taken...
and I appreciate the heads up on “smart football”. Never been there…
But I suppose I should have made my point clearer (and this is ignoring the kinds of blockers that we have and the different formations and what have you). I think Coach Raye needs to show different looks, that’s all. All those power runs up the gut aren’t going to change the defenses’ reactions.
I look at it this way. If I’m a defender lining up right behind the d-line (e.g. I’m a LB or DB), and I notice that in the past 10-15 runs, the offense has ran the ball up the middle on all those runs, I like to think that it’ll be very easy to predict where the run is going to go, and thus my job in stopping that run play will probably be a whole lot easier. My point is just that it’s easy to predict. And so coach raye needs to change it up. Improvise, so to speak…
Unfortunately, what you mentioned below is the real problem here:
The presence of Morgan and Davis might help create big plays once the runner is downfield, but getting him out of the backfield has been our problem so far this year, with first contact coming behind, or at, the line of scrimmage on a lot of plays.
Thanks for the reply. :)
by Waiting4JoshMorgan on Nov 8, 2009 4:42 PM PST reply actions
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