sacks sacks sacks
by fansince1975 on Nov 24, 2009 11:11 AM PST
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PrintLooking up the history of QB's for the niners and other teams, sacks are directly related to the level of QB play. This might seem like a no brainer but looking at the stats is powerful. For example Manning never gets sacked, the only year he did was in 2001, he was sacked 29 times and had a rating of 84 and the Colts were 6-10. This is a trend with every good QB, they get sacked, they throw pics, low QB rating, poor record. So the niners questionable line is a real big issue, bigger than I want to believe. Its hard to be a good team and give up 40 sacks (on pace) a year. If you look at Young and Montana the trend continues:
Young, 1986, 47 sacks, rating 65.5 (granted is was with TB), the niners never reached the 40 mark while he was at QB until 1998 where he was sacked 47 times and got a million concussions even though he performed well.
Montana, 1985 35 sacks, rating 91.3 (which is good but not great for Montana)
Jeff Garcia, he was never sacked even 30 times a year as a niner
Alex Smith is on pace (if he played the whole year) to get sacked 42 times! I am not an Alex Smith defender but the stats dont lie. If he got sacked at the rate Garcia did (which was lower than Young and Montana) I guarantee you you would see a QB rating in the mid to high 90's and we would be talking about how great he is. The O line is performing that bad
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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i have
to agree with you. How could you expect a qb to do good when he has 1-2 seconds to throw everytime? Give him some time and he will eat a defense up.
It’s more than just the O-line, isn’t it? Young and Garcia both were mobile types who could get outside the pocket after a play broke down, and still make something happen. I know Montana wasn’t considered a very mobile QB, but I assume he was smart enough to spot the blitz on occasion and make something happen.
Alex Smith was always considered a mobile quarterback, but I’ve not seen him really make any play with his legs. So far this year, he’s run the ball for 43 yards on 8 attempts is all. From what I’ve seen (mind you, this is strictly anecdotal), he doesn’t get outside the pocket or avoid the rush, or try to buy himself more time.
Of course, even this you can’t pin strictly on Smith. Garcia’s best years, the offense was tailored to roll him out of the pocket and get him throwing on the run. IIRC, this was partly done because the line was pretty bad. I don’t think I’ve seen Smith rolling out.
The line hasn’t been good, but Smith doesn’t seem to do a good job of avoiding the rush, and Raye doesn’t seem to do a good job of getting Smith outside the pocket. But I might just not be remembering specific incidents that could contradict what I’m saying.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
last night
when the Titans rolled Young out away from the direction the line was pulling and he threw the TD to Britt coming across the field, all I could say was “WHY DON’T THE NINERS DO THAT!?!?!”
Move the pocket, get Smith on the move, use his mobility, SOMETHING
A hearty thank you to Rich Aurilia for all the good memories, and to the Niners for finally getting the uni's (mostly) right.
VY is a great example of the coaching staff
adapting to their player’s strengths. They ran lots of option plays last night which is a perfect fit for VY. They didn’t push the ball really far downfield (they didn’t have to), but they utilized his strengths perfectly.
How old are you?
You obviously didn’t see any of the young Montana. Montana got a back injury and became less mobile about halfway into his career. He altered his style of play and kept right on going. Something not even many all time great football players can do. The first Super Bowl team featured a line was actually less than ideal. Walsh put in a number of designed rollouts to use Montana’s athleticism to compensate.
you want to know
who doesnt do a good job of avoiding the rush is SHAUN HILL!!! not alex smith..ive seen him scramble a few times for first downs…and even break a few what would be “sacks”…. I like smith…he just needs time..our offense finally has playmakers… Playmakers they havent had in the last 7 years.. Now following this season WE MUST draft 2 o-lineman with our first round picks….If not 2 o lineman…Then 1 o lineman and 1 defensive pass rusher…. But we need better ,lineman to succeed
Some of Smith sacks are on him and some of them are on the OC
The rest is on the O-Line, but no way in hell are they at fault for all. At least Hill doesn’t run into the rush like Hill.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
CORECTION
AT least Smith doesn’t run into the rush like Hill
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
I think the oline has actually gotten more porous
since Alex Smith took over. Staley got hurt 2 quarters into it, etc.
That may not big the biggest factor, but I think things have deteriorated a bit, which tips the comparison a little more toward Smith’s favor, as would would expect based on his mobility and the fact the defenses are more afraid of his arm.
Overall, I agree that this is a key stat.
Sacks and pressures tend to rattle any quarterback, The underlying motivation of the “46” defense (monsters of the midway…) was the overriding importance of harrasing the QB*. If the QB has no time, and cannot see the field well, he will never get into any flow.
The old Chicago Bears defense used to bring 4 serious pass rushing lineman (Richard Dent, Dan Hampton, etc) as well as Wilber Marshall from OLB, often more, and just terrorize QB’s. It worked (expect one day in Miami).
Back to the 49ers, i was very impressed with Alex Smith’s resilience after the harrassment of the 1st half, he came back out with poise and confidence. That showed me something.
Pure nonsense
Last season the NFL average for sacks was 32.
Ben Roethlisberger was sacked 49 times, the 4th highest in the league.
He had almost exactly the NFL average in interceptions and QB rating, along with TD’s.
Oh, and he won the Super Bowl.
You mean the Steelers won the super bowl
He was along for the ride
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 26, 2009 6:22 AM PST up reply actions
Right ItBurnz
The Steelers were down with 2:37 left to go.
The final game winning drive was almost ALL Big Ben. His ability to roll out, elude tacklers and keep the play alive (and the drive going) was the difference between winning and losing.
That drive cost Cardinal DC Clancy Pendergast to lose his job.
Did you watch the game?
Lots of people like to rag on Big Ben for that game
and I don’t get it. He was not simply “along for the ride”. There are definitely some Super Bowl QBs you could say that of, but not him.
Right smileyman
The 2005 SB he was anemic.
Last year was a classic case of two great QB’s doing everything they could to win the game. Unfortunately for Warner, Big Ben had the ball last.
Watching defenders bouncing off of him as he scrambled and made plays on that last (and other) possesion was a thing of beauty.
Ok in all fairness he played very well in the super bowl last year
My point being is he has a great team around him and a defense that never loses games for him.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 27, 2009 4:34 AM PST up reply actions
It's not the sacks
It’s the play calling. Rodgers has been sacked 43 times already this season and is one of the passing leaders. Raye won’t air it out unless we’re down by 20 points or more.
One positive note...
Even if the 49ers give up 10 more sacks down the stretch, that will still be less than last season!
Well, we're waiting....
it's nice to be gronded in reality...
keeps me less angry come sunday
Reward yourself ...
with a great breakfast on Sunday prior to the games dude. Like a long breakfast with lot’s of bacon and sausage. Works for me.
Well, we're waiting....
Sacks, O-lines, and history
It is pretty much unheard of for a QB to be successful when the o-line can’t give him time.
Similarly, it’s pretty rare for a QB with a lot of time to royally suck.
Joe’s line early in his career was pretty good, although not as good as it would be later. Part of the reason it worked was because the Niners philosophy was so different from other teams that we could take castoffs and failures from other teams and turn them into successful players. Other teams wan’t power-driving offensive lines, we put an emphasis on trap-blocking, cut-blocking, and quickness.
But even Joe could be rendered ineffective in a hurry if his o-line was getting beat. In particular, look at that playoff loss to Minnesota. Why’d we lose? Simple: Chris Doleman destroyed Bubba Paris. (This is gone into in great detail in “The Blind Side” which I highly recommend.)
When faced with a heavy-blitzing team, Walsh figured out that you could rely on short drops and rely on a good quarterback to find and exploit the mismatch. Joe got hit a lot when we played Chicago and their 46 defense, but he got hit AFTER making the pass to the right guy. But when faced with a problem like Doleman, there was no easy solution. And thus we got clobbered in a game we were heavy favorites in.
This is why the teams that have had the most success against Peyton Manning don’t blitz. He’s too good at seeing it coming and finding the exploitable hole left over. That keeps his sack numbers down. But if your o-line can’t stop your basic four-man rush, then you’ve got problems that a quick-reading QB won’t be able to solve.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 25, 2009 12:38 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Fahnhorst, Quillan, Cross and Ayers were indeed pretty good...
They probably could have started for most teams in 1981. There wasn’t a lot of depth behind them, though. The last guy on that line, Dan Audick, was playing tackle at only 240 lbs. Linemen were smaller then. Some of Washington’s famed “Hogs” were barely 260, but 240 lbs. was wayyy too light even for then. Audick also had some Barrett Robbins-style mental issues going on. He did amazingly well in spite of all that, but in a perfect world, he definitely wouldn’t be starting. A lot of the success the 49ers had was due to the scheme. As best I can remember, the Minnesota loss came at a time when Montana had become much more of a pure pocket passer. There are probably things that could be done right now that might minimize the impact of the OL, given that Smith can run away, but I don’t have huge confidence that Raye can think enough of them up.
P.S...
I wonder if Sam Wyche could be persuaded to come back and take an NFL job? I seem to remember he had some health issues, and he apparently now imagines himself to be some sort of politician, but he was very innovative. Since the 49ers fall a little short of being conventionally talented on offense, they need some of that. He was probably my third favorite 49ers OC behind Shanahan and Holmgren, Norv Turner being a very close 4th. Shanahan and Holmgren would of course now be unwilling to take a coordinator job, and it remains to be seen whether Turner will blow it badly enough in SD this year to get canned.
Sacks, O-lines, and history
Great post, Ronaldinho!
I am going to check out that book (Blindside) you recommend.
One thing I would add, in the first superbowl (vs Cincinatti), the 49ers built an early lead, partly on exceptional defensive play. However, Walsh was criticized for very conservative play calling in the second half that almost allowed Cincinnati to come back. (Walsh was not a legend at the time, just a new coach who many thought was “different”, and not in a good way.) The essence of the reason for the conservative play calling, which Walsh and Montana hinted at, was the inability of the O-line to slow down the Bengals pass rush.
“even Joe could be rendered ineffective in a hurry if his o-line was getting beat.”
Second try: A quote from Walsh:
Actually a paraphrase: The Bengals were the better team, but the 49ers “happened” to win. I was very surprised when I first heard/read it. Don’t remember whether it was heard or read, but definitely remember the word “happened.” But I think Walsh was not just being honest, but also showing humility.
I think he was being honest, more or less. The 49ers caught some breaks in the first half
but they had a under-rated secondary.
Lott, Wright, Wlliamson, Hicks
3 rookies and a 2nd year.
All future pro-bowl.
The offense
was not intimidating. Average receivers (sorry Dwight and Freddy), no great RB; I don’t remember the tight end. Just a young Joe and a genius calling the plays.
Should have mentioned that,
Walsh make this statement several years after that SB so he was not doing any mental damage to his team.
Ronaldinho
Dude. The ‘46’ pretty much left the Bears when Buddy Ryan left in 1986.
The Bears after Ryan’s departure, under new DC (Vince Tobin ) played an almost completely different defense. ‘Read & React’ instead of all out pressure.
Vince Tobin was the younger brother of Bears player personnel director Bill Tobin. Mike Ditka hated Buddy Ryan so much that he brought in a USFL coach (Tobin), not because he wanted to continue the tradition of Ryan’s dominating defense, but because he wanted to show evceybody that he could win without Buddy Ryan. He couldn’t (at least not when it mattered most – in the playoffs).
Joe Montana played FOUR games against Buddy Ryan in Chicago. He was 2-2 in those games (he won in 1981 & 1984 . . . He lost in 1983 & 1985).
They had an up and down offense,
(Not consistent) and that played a big role in those 2 Montana victories. When that wacky QB they had was healthy, they were hard to beat (because of the defense). Their defense was intimidating and effective even in the 23-0 play-off game.
Also, they had no offensive game plan to speak of. Just gave the ball to Walter Payton or had MacMahon would throw it (to Gault or …).
The pure 46 disappeared, but the concept changed football.
Oh boy, you’ve woken the beast.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 7:37 PM PST up reply actions
Just like to deal with accuracy
Otherwise it’s just BS.
Sorry that facts and being accurate doesn’t matter to you. It does to me.
what you say about Chicago changing there scheme
is true.
Ditka hated all the credit Buddy Ryan got. But in my opinion, Ditka, with all the talent in the world, would never have won a super-bowl without Ryan.
Your facts are good, but you are not seeing the forest for the trees (as they say). Pressure matters.
More or less, Buddy Ryan’s 46, for a few years, beat most teams with:
2 good corners
1 hall of fame run-stopping ILB (we know who that is)
6-8 guys bringing pressure a lot of the time.
(total = 11 , …haha)
He destroyed the New England QB in the super-bowl.
In general, pressure on a QB is a huge factor in a complex game.
You cannot separate Ditka from Ryan
That said, Mike Ditka did the one thing that’s necessary for a team to achieve in the NFL. He came into an underachieving team and (mainly through his force of personality) made them play better.
It’s just that simple.
Just like Mike Singletary has done (Mike Nolan’s teams were .327 teams. Singletary has taken those same players and has gone about 500 with them).
Look at VD. A classic underachiever under Nolan. A Pro-Bowl type of player under Singletary. Why? (I don’t think VD got bigger, faster or stronger in the last offseason).
Answer? Mike Singletary DEMANDED that he start playing up to his capabilities . . .and to his credit VD has.
Very true!
Ditka had amazing force of personality and that was critical.
And i deeply agree: Coach Singletary has been more than ideal for Vernon Davis. Transformative. (Meaning that he changed Davis’ life.)
He is also probably the perfect coach for Patrick Willis, though that is a little less dramatic story. And for others…
It is interested to think that within Singletary there is the experience of intimate player-coach relationships with both Ditka and Ryan. A great coach who makes people better (Ditka), and a creative iconoclast (Ryan).
I guess you can tell: I like Mike Singletary.
Glad to see that we agree zack
I am much , much more a Buddy Ryan fan than a Mike Ditka fan.
That said, Iron Mike was the perfect HC for THAT team (maybe not for any other team).
The Bears were his team as a player and he came into Chicago as the new HC determined to succeed. He didn’t care who he pissed off or who he pleased.
He was going to do whatever it took to transform that team to a team in his image. Just like Mike Singletary is doing.
I hope Mike Singletary
feels a loyalty to SF, even though he didn’t play here. (And that, we, the owners and fans, treat him with the respect he deserves.)
Singletary was (very stupidly) rebuffed by the Bears
when he wanted to get into coaching.
He was welcomed by Billick and the Ravens and embraced by a man who knew him well and respected him greatly (Bill Walsh) in SF.
I believe that at this point Mike Singletary feels no loyalty to the McCaskeys of the Bears (any loyalty he had in Chicago was directed towards Mike Ditka & Buddy Ryan) and feels a tremendous ‘responsibility’ to further the 49er legacy.
Just my humble opinion.
i'm glad.
I imagine (hope) maybe he respects that legacy (the 49ers). We respected (and feared) him and “his team”, quite a bit.
In fact, I would say, going back to ’83 or ’84, there has never been an opposing player i respected and admired more than Singletary.
Singletary has immesred himself in 49er history.
In fact, on thing he said early on is that he wanted his players to know and appreciate 49er history as well.
Mike Singletary has/had two careers: One as a player (the Bears) and the other as a coach (Baltimore aside, it’s with the 49ers).
I hope he is as successful with the 49ers (as a coach) as he was with the Bears (as a player).
As far as respect for his new teams history and legacy, there’s nothing to worry about there. That’s just the kind of person he is.
I agree
I sense nothing but respect from Mike towards the game in general and the Niner organization in specific.
My dream is that Singletary makes the the HOF as a player and as a coach. (Can someone even be inducted twice under two different categories?)
Spike Lee once directed a movie called "Do the Right Thing."
That’s what I think about when it comes to MS.
He’s all about ‘Doing the Right Thing.’
Playing the game the right way. Coaching it the right way. Living your life the right way.
Having respect for yourself, your teammates, your coaches and organization.
And so on.
I can't see him doing anybody
in the way Nolan did Alex Smith either which is a huge plus in my book. The way Nolan threw Smith under the bus then called him out in the media when he was hurt is criminal. I hope somebody puts a burning bag of dog turds on his doorstep as his Christmas gift this year.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 27, 2009 4:38 AM PST up reply actions
I agree 100%
nobody gets thrown under the bus on Singletary’s watch. Notice how Alex Smith has never once, to my knowledge, even alluded to the weakness of the offensive line in a critical way. That is smart. Maybe it is just him, or maybe he was coached a bit on that. Either way it is a big positive in my opinion.
Alex doesn’t know what a good offensive line looks like. Since he’s never had one in the NFL he’s not gonna complain about one now.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 29, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Actually under Nolan..
VD was productive, especially in 2007 under a horrid offense, and was asked to block more and became an excellent blocker because of it. So your platitude does not apply here.
Well, we're waiting....
Right drummer
Look beyond the stats my little friend.
Virtually everyone (players, coaches and VD himself) say that his attitude (and his play) changed dramitically (for the better) soon after Singletary ripped him a new one last year.
Many say that Mike Singletary as HC was the best thing that ever happened to Vernon Davis.
Do you watch this team (on TV)? Do you follow this team (in the media)?
You kill me. You literally make me laugh out loud.
I seems to me...
You follow this team through quotes rather than looking at the what really happened. I know you don’t know anything about 49er football, and it shows. Why you try to pass off as an expert of it is more fascinating as a case of human study.
Well, we're waiting....
BTW,...
VD is already questioning the offensive strategy. A strategy that reflects his HC. So it seems he is already questioning his HC.
Well, we're waiting....
Drummer, you are way off base here
I like a lot of your posts, but to question the relationship between Singletary and VD is way off the mark. I won’t even go into details. I am sure you know them. Some players are amazingly talented, but need discipline to function in an organization (cf. Charles Haley). Singletary provides discipline in a deep and essential way.
Davis is questioning the offense...
His remarks along with Crabtree’s show they have not much confidence in the playcalling, and wanting to spread the offense out more, something Singletary doesn’t want to do. That isn’t off base at all.
I don’t make this stuff up ya know.
Well, we're waiting....
It shows they want to be successful and believe that they can do more to help the team win games
It doesn’t show that they have lack of faith in the coaches. Its a much more tactful way of saying “Throw me the damn ball!”
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 27, 2009 4:40 AM PST up reply actions
Actually
That was Keyshawn.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 29, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
That is just youthful talk.
I don’t think Singletary minds that. He’s a footballl player. He has spirit and competitive drive.
But if Mike asks him to walk through a wall, he will walk through that wall with no hesitation and no questions asked.
Right
Quotes DIRECTLY from the source (like Vernon davis HIMSELF talking about how much Mike Singletary has done for him) are irrelevant.
Pathetic.
BTW genius: In VD’s first 2 1/2 seasons under Mike Nolan he had 8 TD’s.
In 1 1/2 seasons under Mike Singletary he has NINE TD’s.
Do the math, my little friend! (Let me help you out here. NINE in 1 1/2 seasons is MUCH better than EIGHT in 2 1/2 seasons)!
(Have someone help explain the math here to ya).
Do you ever stop to realize just how foolish you sound?
YOU SHOULD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You do know...
That VD shared TE duties in his ROOKIE year (where VD started 8 games) with Eric Johnson, don’t you? Btween the 2 TE’s, they had 5 tds. VD’s second year (the year they had Hostler as OC, Smith, Dilfer, Hill, and Wienke at QB) he had 52 receptions for 509 yards, with 4tds. This is through 14 games. With both a horrid line and with horrid QB’s. That’s a significant jump in production despite the pauciity of offense. The only reciever that caught more TD’s that year than Davis? Arnaz Battle. You do know that the supposed that year #1 wr was Darryl Jackson, don’t you? So, with the paucity of offensive talent in 2007, VD in 14 games still had a great year.
In 2008, VD was asked to block more, and he did great there. Why? He only had 2 TDs though. Why? Because the other receivers had 19 tds between all of them.
2009, VD has 8 tds. The other receivers combined? 6tds.
Get it now?
Well, we're waiting....
And you can talk STATS all you want
my little friend.
I am talking about intangibles (like attitude).
No intelligent person (emphasize INTELLIGENT) would argue with the fact that Vernon Davis, alomst immediately after Mike Singletary sent hi to the showers last season, has grown up and matured by leaps and bounds.
Nobody INTELLIGENT would argue that fact. ’cept, of course, for you!
I think GeoMak
Is alot more correct in this matter.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 27, 2009 4:42 AM PST up reply actions
Two issues:
First, there’s no question that GeoMak is right in that Vernon seems to be much more mature and responsible under Nolan than he was before.
However, Drummer is right in that Vernon was actually an effective pass-catching TE under Hoestler. It’s easy to miss because the team’s offense was so terrible, and Vernon still had a few inconsistency issues.
But there was a reason I was able to call Vernon’s breakout season while others on the board were calling him a bust and saying he should be traded (I won’t name names, you know who you are) – and that’s because I didn’t look at his stats in a void. You could evaluate his numbers in the context of one of the worst passing teams in league history, and it was pretty clear he could be a special player.
I do think...
Singletary has found his player on offense in Davis that reflects his own competitive personality form his playing days, so there is a symbiotic relationship. But people discount everything else prior to that, like his injuries, the constant flux of the team, etc.
Davis went through a lot of adversity early in his career in SF. He always bounced back from it. Even when called to be a blocker, he still did that with the same intensity as he does running a route. He could flat out pancake defenders doing it. That’s not wasting his development at all.
Well, we're waiting....
BTW:
You fight a losing battle, my little friend.
You constantly want to criticize me and disagree with me.
OK fine. It’s America. We have ‘freedom of speech.’
The problem (for you) is this: Due to my SUPERIOR knowledge of all things NFL (gleaned over religiously following the league for 40+ yaers) I know EXACTLY what I am talking about and I rarely make any mistakes (factual or otherwise).
Arguing against me is a sure-fire recipe for distaster. You (unfortunately) lack the basic intelligence to understand that concept.
Congratulations!
Vernon Davis
I agree with you that Mike Singletary was probably one of the best things to happen to Davis in terms of the mental aspects of the game. However, I also think drummer’s last comment above (12:13pm) does a good job of showing that Davis was in fact developing as a receiver. Obviously his numbers are huge this year, but he was actually developing under Nolan (just not in the mental aspects of the game).
by David Fucillo on Nov 26, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Of course
I NEVER said that he wasn’t developing as a receiver under Nolan.
Never said it. (Show me WHERE I said it)?
And that’s the problem. Some people can’t follow a ‘train of thought.’
Here’s what I said:
Look at VD. A classic underachiever under Nolan. A Pro-Bowl type of player under Singletary. Why? (I don’t think VD got bigger, faster or stronger in the last offseason).
You yourself Fooch posted last week about his penalties.
Nobody in their right mind would argue with the fact that VD was a ‘classic underachiever’ during his first 2 1/2 seasons in the NFL (which happened under Nolan’s watch).
No matter HOW many passes he did or didn’t catch.
That’s all I said.
Just like nobody in their right mind would argue with the the fact that he’s having a Pro-Bowl season under Mike Singletary.
Nobody in their RIGHT mind would argue either of the points I made (classic underachiever under Nolan; Pro-Bowl type season under MS).
NOBODY!
Except, of course, my little friend.
For his natural ability
He was underachieving. The guy is the most athletically gifted TE in the history of the league. He was me first. His mind wasn’t putting his body in a position to succeed to the level he was capable. Skills wise he was there. Singletary changed the mental aspect ALOT. Now Vernon obviously had it in there already because he could have reacted poorly to the smackdown Singletary gave him but he took it as a challenge and look where he is now.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 27, 2009 4:44 AM PST up reply actions
One thing people forget in all of this...
Davis suffered a fracture in one of his legs his rookie season that kept him out of significant number of games, and finished strong. He got a knee injurey again in 2007 that kept him out of 2 games. People forget that in 2007, Nolan began to lose the entire team. It wasn’t like he was the only one who had to deal with a horrid situation in SF. He still was resilient enough to have a good season (given the state of that team) after suffering a lot of adversity early in his career.
2008: well, if anybody thinks that he didn’t produce because he was a blocker, here is a quote from Singeltary after the Jets game:
In a remarkable bit of unsolicited praise, coach Mike Singletary said the blocking that Vernon Davis did Sunday against the Jets was the finest he’d ever seen by a tight end.
“I don’t know if there’s ever been a tight end that can block better than Vernon Davis,” Singletary said in his Monday news conference, a day after the 49ers defeated the Jets 24-14. “It’s the best I’ve ever seen, period. For him to be on a defensive end, linebacker, he was on him, driving him, moving him. He did an exceptional job.”
Told of his head coach’s comments, Davis said, “I accept that. I agree. It doesn’t surprise me at all. It is essential to the game. I can catch the ball. I can run the routes. I can run by anybody who’s on me. To be able to block, that sounds like a complete tight end to me.”
Davis’ role has evolved into blocking first, receiving second. He had three catches for 29 yards Sunday. As a blocker, Davis helped the 49ers strike for 375 yards in total offense and dominate time of possession by nearly 2 to 1.
“It has more to do with his mental makeup,” Singletary said. “He’s willing and he takes pride in it.”
And to think just six weeks ago, Singletary banished Davis to the showers for his lackadaisical attitude after drawing a personal foul in the 34-13 loss to Seattle on Oct. 26.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/08/SP8D14K7I5.DTL#ixzz0Y5E2D3SI
Remember, this game essentially won Singetary his job here today. Even after he called VD a cancer. Despite VD’s prior adversities.
Well, we're waiting....
Calling Vernon an underachiever in 2007 ...
indicates that you don’t understand how epically bad the offense was that year.
Singletary directed Davis' swagger...
Into a more positive direction. But the old VD still creeps up from time to time. Like say, a stupid penalty.
Well, we're waiting....
People look at 2008...
as a “down year” for Davis as a TE, but being a blocker in a Martz offense proved he was effective and a big part of the WR’s getting open. That’s mostly the design of the offense. But 19 tds out of the WR could is pretty significant. One could say that Davis was a bit wasted last season, but it seems more like he helped the WR’s more that year, and the WR’s this season are being wasted in Raye’s offense.
Well, we're waiting....
If your posts relfect..
Your 40+ years of “Superior Football Knowledge”, then you have really wasted 40+ years of your life.
Well, we're waiting....
Right
Look. I respect Fooch. I disagree with him on many occasions and I actually like to ‘tweak’ him on occasion (like I did last week regarding VD’s penalties and FO).
I guess he’s going to be an attorney so I think he’s man enough that he can handle a debate.
And to his credit he ‘debates’ in an adult manner.
I respect his opinions (whether I agree with him or not).
I have ZERO respect for your opinions. Zero!
I have no respect because
ONLY YOU would argue this statement of mine:
Look at VD. A classic underachiever under Nolan. A Pro-Bowl type of player under Singletary. Why? (I don’t think VD got bigger, faster or stronger in the last offseason).
Only you, my little friend.
I don’t care how many passes he did or didn’t catch under Mike Nolan (or how many STUPID penalties he made under Nolan).
No INTELLIGENT person would describe Vernon Davis as anything BUT a big underachiever while playing for Mike Nolan.
Except you.
That’s why I have NO respect for you.
In your zeal to attack me you saying completely nonsensical things.
That’s why.
What’s next drummer boy. Are you going to tell me that VD was an OVER achiever under Nolan? Or that he was playing up to his potential under Nolan?
Is that your position? Cause it must be if you are disagreeing with me.
Hysterical!
Nice to see a classic..
GeoMak counter that strays away from Football into more of a classic GeoMak Without His Medication rant.
I don’t attack posters. I attack the poster’s idea.
Like your idea of you having “Superior Football Knowledge”.
Well, we're waiting....
Final Jeopardy
Catagory: Underachievers.
GeoMak: “I’ll take Underachievers for $500 Alex.”
Alex Trebek: “Who has been considered to be a HUGE underachiever since being drafted #6 overall in the 2006 NFL draft?”
GeoMak: “Vernon Davis.”
Trebek: “You are correct sir!”
drummer boy: Actually that answer is wrong. He was improving as a pass receiver even before Mike Singletary took over in 2008.
Yeah, that makes sense drummer boy.
I guess you missed..
How the WR’s themselves improved in 2008 under Martz, and have disappeared under Raye.
I hope the candied yams at the asylum are good enough to make your Thanksgiving memorable.
Well, we're waiting....
Be a man drummer (LOL)
I made THIS statement:
Look at VD. A classic underachiever under Nolan.
What say you?
There are ONLY three possible answers:
1. Underachiever.
2. Overachiever.
3. Played up to (not above or below) his potential.
No ‘long speeches or stats.’
Pretend we are in a courtroom. The qwitnes in only allowed to give SHORT, concise answers.
GeoMak: "Drummer boy. After he was drafted by the SF 49ers in 2006 and before Mike Singletary too over midway through the 2008 season, how would you describe VD. As an overachiever? an underachiever? or as someone who was playing right up to his potential?
drummer: “I would say that Vernon Davis _______.”
(Simply answer the question drummer).
Simple question. SIMPLE answer. (You know my answer. UNDERACHIEVER).
BTW: You don’t have the testicles to do it.
Why? Cause this is a perfect dilemma for you.
If you answer the question TRUTHFULLY and show you actually follow the 49ers, you would have to AGREE with me.
And therin lies the problem. It will KILL you to have to agree with me, now won’t it?
Too funny. You amuse the Hell out of me!
Waiting for your 'answer.'
I don’t know what it’ll be but I know this.
It WON’T be an answer to my question.
You aren’t man enough for that.
It will be you changing the narrative. It will be you insulting me. It will be you doing ANYTHING but answering the question.
Honestly I don’t blame you. If you DON’T agree with me (that VD was a classic underachiever) you end up looking klike a horse’s ass.
Which leaves you with doing the ONLY intelligent thing to do: Agreeing with me!
I’m pretty sure that you’d rather have a root canal tha agree with me.
Hysterical!
Sorry I was away...
But I won’t read all of what you posted because of one thing area of where you failed:
Singeltart was interim HC for almost half of 2008. VD’s production was relatively the same with the exception of 2 tds passes, both of which came in 2 games where he had only 3 rec between games, 2 for tds, with a total of 49 yards in all 3 of those rec. So in essence, he was doing what Nolan and Martz asked him to do as was Singletary and Martz asked him to do.
So really, Singeltary asked him to achieve as much as Nolan did, with the exception was that VD had Hill at QB.
Glad to see 49er football amuse you. It amuses me at times too.
Well, we're waiting....
Thank you
You did NOT disappoint.
I asked you a SIMPLE question. You pulled up your skirt and REFUSED to answer.
Bawk! Bawk!
Thank you. (What a JOKE you are, my little friend)!
Question posed to the drummer boy
“Was VD considered a classic underachiever or NOT whne he played for Mike Nolan.”
Drummer: "I refuse to answer that SIMPLE question on the grounds that it will completely EXPOSE me (as either in NOT knowing anything about the SF 49ers or in having to AGREE with GeoMak).
drummer takes the fifth!
Pathetic.
If anything...
Davis overachieved in 2007. Also, he did what he had to do and achieved his goal that his coaches wanted him to in 2008.
The area where it’s underachieving this season is the WR corp as a whole. So it’s more of the offense than Singletary and VD. It’s Singletary’s caveman approach that is hurting the team more than Davis having 8tds.
Sorry if the reality of 49er football distorts GeoMak’s Superior Football Gnarledge. I’m trying to help you here.
Well, we're waiting....
Again, ANYTHING
but you answering a SIMPLE question.
(For the LAST time): "Under Mike Nolan, would you consider Vernon Davis, who was drafted # 6 OVERALL, an:
A) Underacheiver.
B) Overacheiver.
C) A player that was playing up to his potential.
That’s it my little friend.
No (well he did this in 2007 and that in 2008, etc).
Simple question.
Simple A, B or C answer.
Grow a pair. Be a man. Answer the question.
God, I actually feel sorry for you. You look pathetic here. You really do.
(Helpful Hint: Nobody in their right mind would answer B or even C)!
God I have just CRUSHED you here today. I have you to the point where you REFUSE to answer a SIMPLE question (that everyone knows the answer to)!.
Hey drummer
Even Veron Davis HIMSELF would answer "A’ to that question.
Even he would admit to being an underachiever during his first few seasons in the NFL.
You are probably the ONLY person in North America that would not admit this OBVIOUS opinion.
Why?
Cause to admit the obvious means to agree with GeoMak and the thought of that just KILLS you.
You amuse the Hell out of me. You really do.
Hey drummer!
Lemme guess. In your infinite wisdom (LOL) Alex Smith also hasn’t UNDERACHIEVED since being drafted #1 overall in 2005.
Is that what you’re going to tell us next?
Keep’em coming. You’re on a roll now!
From David Kindervater
He’s a writer who wrote this after Mike Singletary benched Vernon Davis.
“I know a bit about Vernon. I’ve interviewed him. He’s a good guy. And I don’t believe he’s a selfish player. Some people have said that he talks a better game than he plays, but I wouldn’t go that far. I will step out and say
I think he’s been somewhat of an underachieverbecause he has the ability to be one of the best tight ends in football. I don’t know whether it’s been because of his surroundings or his supporting cast or whatever you want to call it. But the guy is better than the numbers he has put up in his short career thus far (not that they’ve been terrible numbers). I do think Vernon probably needs to get some bad habits out of his system which may or may not include an attitude adjustment. And Coach Singeltary will help him there. If Vernon’s open to it. Which I believe he is. You didn’t see Vernon jawing with his coach over the incident. He took the punishment like a man and was respectful about it. And even though I’m sure it was an embarrassing situation for him, he’ll be a better player and person for it.”
That’s an intelligent assessment of VD. And of course, any intelligent assessment of Davis would have to include the word ‘underachiever.’
Except, of course, in your world drummer boy.
Holy Jeeebus...
Dude, WTF? It’s Thanksgiving. Doesn’t family visit you in the ward?
In fact, in 2008, Singetary credited VD for doing his job blocking in Martz’s offense. That’s what his role was, and a blocking TE. Martz doesn’t feature the TE in his offense. Instead he got the production out of his WR’s.
That’s the difference between 2008 and 2009. The WR’s in 2009 are nowhere. In 2008, almost all of them had receptions and TD’s.
If you are only focusing on that sideline incident, than you know nothing of VD’s career. Then again, you don’t know 49er football. VD is questioning the offense already. Why? Because they are losing, that’s why.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Nov 26, 2009 7:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Right again
You for the thousandth time refuse to answer a simple question.
Why?
Cause you, to the exclusion of almost everyone else, take exception to the fact that VD has been considered a ‘Classic Underachiever.’
Too funny.
Listen, I know that you know nothing about football at the NFL level, but when you draft a TE # 6 overall, you’re not drafting him because of his blocking ability.
You’re drafting him for his ability to catch the ball.
His inability to do that on a consistent nbasis, coupled with his immature attitude, is why he has long been considered an ‘Underachiever.’
Which part of this confuses you, my little friend?
Cause actually it’s quite simple.
Singletary says it himself..
It’s not about individual stats or tds. Football is a team game. During the time when VD was asked to become more of a blocker, he became of of the better in not one of the best blocking TE’s in the League. That’s actually part of his development as a total package. He has the size, speed and strength to take advantage of all of the aspects of his game.
Of course, you don’t know football, so I can see why you struggle with this.
Well, we're waiting....
Right
And if you want a great blocking TE you don’t use the sixth pick in the draft to get him.
The 49ers didn’t draft him #6 overall JUST to block great. they drafted him there in hopes of getting a Tony Gonzalez or a Antonio Gates.
Again I am sorry that you do not understand the NFL draft. Perhaps you can have someone explain it to you.
(You argue that VD’s been an Underacheiver and I don’t know football. That’s beyond insane. Even for you).
You don't know football..
At least 49ers football. I’ve already pointed out most of VD’s career in SF, and if you knew anything about the 49ers since he was drafted, you would know that he, like a lot of other 49ers on offense, are on thier 4th OC. So far, given all that, VD has done pretty well in whatever role he was given.
Well, we're waiting....
Disagree
He’s been merely average the previous seasons. It wasn’t until Sing came along that he became a 1st rounder player. He actually had a great interview on NFL Network the week of our Thursday night game where he called Singletary a father figure and instrumental in turning his career around.
From Davis’ own mouth
Coach Singletary is probably the best thing to have happened for me. No matter how well you do something, he sets the bar high, especially for me.
Just how? ...
He basically did the same things in Sings half year than he did when Nolan was HC. It was the offense, not VD. Martz didn’t feature VD. His second year, he was in a horrid offense and still was able to produce. Singeltary made a difference in calming him down and directing his swagger to a more positive direction, and Raye’s offense features VD more (and the WR’s less), but VD wasn’t being developed as poorly as everyone thinks.
Heck, VD looked good when he had Hill and Tollner in those last 2 games in 2007. That offense was a disaster as a whole, and VD still got 52 receptions.
Well, we're waiting....
Why is there no credit to the play calling qhen it comes to VD?
So Sing drew up those plays for him? Sing calls the games when we are behind, I should have known.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
Because VD's career...
never happened until Singletary called him out, according to “Superior Football Gnarledge”.
Well, we're waiting....
Didn't say that drummer boy
Didn’t say it ’didn’t happen.’ That’s you just (as usual) making things up. People that can’t win a debate often resort to writing fiction. Congratulations.
His career has long been considered to be one of ‘underachievment’ for most 49er fans. Any cursory look at posts and blogs from recent years EASILY confirms that.
He needed a coach to hold him accountable and that’s exactly what Mike Singletary did.
VD himself has confirmed this.
Again, what part of this confuses you? It’s public knowledge.
Too funny.
No drummer
he was an overachiever under Nolan. He set the league on fire and became one of the most beloved figures in 49er history.
The 49er’s petitioned the league to make VD eligible for the HOF just a few years into his career there. He was THAT good!
Sheesh!
Well,
if you figure in that VD had 3 different QB’s in 2007 with a horrid OC and still produced…
Well, I guess you’ll never get that.
Well, we're waiting....
Right again drummer
And the different QB’s and OC’s contibuted exactly what to his immaturity which manifested itself in things like stupid penalties and hot dogging after simply making a catch.
Beyond that in2007/2008 the KC Chiefs were one of the worst teams in the NFL (they were 6-26). They were QBacked by guys like Tyler Thigpen and Damon Huard.
In those two seasons Tony Gonzalez gained 2,230 yards and scored 15 TD’s.
In those same two seasons VD gained 867 yards and scored 6 TD’s.
Do the math, my little friend.
(Helpful hint: Regarding yards and TD’s, TG was basically 3-1 over VD).
Umm..
The one thing that leads you to fail is trying to compare other teams and players and eras to this 49er team. That only explains one thing to me: you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I’ve tried to explain to you the how, why’s and when’s of VD’s career.
I mean, you’re comparing Gonzalez in his 11th and 12th years in the League to VD’s 2nd and 3rd? Don’t they give you Thorazine or something in the ward? You’d be better off using TG’s second and 3rd seasons, with Hey Hey Jimmy Raye as OC.
Well, we're waiting....
Right again
Look, many hours ago I made this comment:
Look at VD. A classic underachiever under Nolan
You’ve written about 100 posts attacking that comment.
If you want to go on in your life, believing that Vernon Davis actually played up to his potential or overachieved during his first 2 1/2 – 3 seasons in the NFL, go ahead.
That’s your right as an American citizen. However, I wouldn’t share that opinion with too many people. You’ll be laughed at unmercifully.
BTW: FIRST three seasons in the NFL?
TG: 15 TD’s and 1,838 yards.
VD: 9 TD’s and 1,132 yards.
Big difference there my little friend.
Hey drummer
Why don’t you ‘Put up or Shut up?’
You want to disagree with me regarding the fact that Vernon Davis underachieved for most of his career (this year notwithstanding).
Why don’t you write a post and ask this poll question:
“Until the arrival of Mike Singletary, Vernon Davis could be considered to have”:
A) Underachieved.
B) Overachieved.
C) Played up to his potential.
Why don’t you post that poll. I’d be curious to see if anyone (even ONE other person) would agree with you and NOT vote for ’A."
Go ahead big boy. Write a post saying that you took exception to this statement from Geomak:
Look at VD. A classic underachiever under Nolan
Post the poll question and let’s see how many agree with you.
(My guess. Very, very few. If any)!
As usual, you being a gutless wonder, you won’t. You wouldn’t answer my SIMPLE question and you won’t post a poll question to see if even ONE other person agrees with you.
You amuse me, my little friend.
I answered that already..
You just can’t handle the truth.
BTW, I dunno if you are in a drunken stupor, or OD’d on Meds, but you should look back and see just how crazy you look in this thread. Well, I am encouraging you to melt here, and that’s good for the board in entertainment value, but you look like you are sick in the head for a man of your age.
Seriously.
Well, we're waiting....
When?
You may have answered in a long drawn out manner. That’s not what I asked.
A simple “yes” (he was an underachiever) or “no” he was an overachiever or played to his potential.
You NEVER answered that question. Never.
Just another lie by the drummer boy.
The only one who’s crazy here is YOU. Even zacksf said as much when he said : “drummer you are way off base here.”
Nobody is defending your position. Why? Cause it’s idiotic.
I think...
You are an expert on things idiotic. You’re pretty much the poster boy of idiotic here.
Well, we're waiting....
What, you average out years?...
TG’s 1st year: 338 yds, 2tds. zOmg!! Wasted!!
TG’s 2nd year: 621 yards, 2 tds, zOmg!! Wasted again!!
BTW, TG didn’t start his 1st year in KC.
OMG!! WHY DID THEY DRAFT HIM IF HE DIDN’T START!!!!
Well, we're waiting....
No genius
I ADDED TG’s first three years and ADDED VD’s first three years.
Are you insane? Really. You do know how to add, don’t you.
Average out the years? What planet are you from?
The reality here is that you don't know
what you’re talking about.
Anyone (like you) who doesn’t think that VD has underachieved for most of his career knows NOTHING about football.
Congratulations.
You know a lot about attacking me and insulting me (which I just laugh off) but you know nothing about the game.
Even zack admitted as much.
LOL..
Again, I attack the idea, not the poster. You just happen to be an idea that is ripe for insults.
I mean, it’s not like you attacked someone like Danny here, and ran when he called you out to make a post.
Well, we're waiting....
You always attack me
Always.
Of course, like I said earlier, i have Zero respect for your opinions so it bothers me not at all.
That said, only the clueless would attack this ‘idea’ (that VD has underachieved throughout most of his career).
Congratulations.
I might be insane (LOL)
but at least I’m intelligent enough to know that VD hasn’t come CLOSE to living up to his lofty draft status, at least until Singletary took over.
Too funny my little friend.
You accuse me of being insane but YOU’RE the one making insane comments.
Even zacksf admitted as much.
Fooch tried to defend you but he quit early on. He’s too intelligent to agree with your nonsense.
I think...
You should stop speaking for other posters. If they disagree with me, then they usually address me. I think as a whole you’re the one who is more suspect here than I, and I think you know who those posters are.
Well, we're waiting....
Look at his post genius
It’s way above at 7:03 PM.
Good God man. You argue with everything.
Read his post. You know the one that starts out: DRUMMER, you are way off base here.
I’m not SPEAKING for zacksf drummer boy.
I’m READIING his post.
You really are clueless, aren’t you?
Sure,
and if you read, I addressed it, and it was only to the point of VD calling out the play calling. Which he did.
Well, we're waiting....
right drummer boy
You attacked me for my comment
Look at VD. A classic underachiever under Nolan. A Pro-Bowl type of player under Singletary.
with this gem from you:
Actually under Nolan..
VD was productive, especially in 2007 under a horrid offense, and was asked to block more and became an excellent blocker because of it. So your platitude does not apply here.
Get it?
You are saying that my platitude (involving MS) really doesn’t apply cause VD was productive in 2007.
Then when zacksf calls you out on THAT exchange by writing:
Drummer you are way off base here . . .
You COMPLETELY ignore your comment to me and start talking about VD questioning the playcalling.
That’s NOT what I was talking about. Or zack!
We were talking about the difference in VD’s game under Mike Nolan and Mike Singletary.
You’re a joke son. You really are.
Aren’t you intelligent enough to understand that there’s a written record of all the comments made?
That you can’t really lie you way out of things, cause your words will come back to bite you in the ass?
Oh my God. This is too easy. it really is. Wake up son. You make NO sense!
Here's the time line genius
1. Geomak states that VD underachieved under Nolan.
2. drummer states that that “platitude doesn’t apply cause VD was productive, especially in 2007.”
3. zacksf replies to these two posts by saying: “Drummer you are way off base here.”
4 drummer ignores the ENTIRE conversation and talks about VD questioning the playcalling.
You’re a joke son. A real JOKE!
BTW: Don’t believe me? Go back and LOOK IT UP!!!!!!
Here genius
1. GeoMaks post (on Nov 25 at 8:38 PM): You cannot separate Ditka from Ryan.
2. drummers post (on Nov 26 at 11:39 AM): Actually under Nolan
3. zacks post (on Nov 26 at 7:03 PM): Drummer you are way off base here.
4. drummers post (on Nov 26 at 7:59 PM): Davis is questioning the playcalling.
Say WHAT?
The first three posts are about Davis’s play under Mike Nolan and then Mike Singletary. They had NOTHING to do with the current playcalling.
Except for you. That’s what you come back with.
You make ZERO sense. None whatsoever.
Here's another gem from the drummer
at 1:51 you wrote:
If anything…
Davis overachieved in 2007.
Really?
In 2007 here was his stat line:
52 receptions. 509 yards. 9.8 yards per reception. 4 TD’s. 36.4 yards per game.
This is another TE’s stat line in 2007:
44 receptions. 545 yards. 12.4 yards per recetion. 4 TD’s. 34.1 yards per game.
Pretty similar stats.
Vernon Davis was a first round pick drafted #6 overall.
The second set of stats belongs to TE Desmond Clark of the Chicago Bears. Clark was drafted in the sixth round, the 179th overall pick.
Very similar stat line.
Huge, huge difference between the 6th overall pick and the 179th overall pick.
Again (and as usual) you make NO SENSE!
I’ll give you one thing drummer boy. At least you’re consistent.
Again...
Being the state of the 49ers in 2007, which was already posted many time here, it isn’t VD’s fault where he was drafted. The offensive woes went beyond VD. If you look up the last few games of 2006, even after injury, he started to come on in Turner’s offense. One more year of Turner might have brought even better numbers than under Hostler.
BTW, Desmond Clark under Shanahan did less than what VD could do if the 49ers had hired Shanahan this season.
Well, we're waiting....
Regarding VD
you’re simply wrong. He was much less of an effective tight end until this year. Let’s use DVOA stats because they are effective regardless of the offensive system being used.
This year is DVOA is 10.4% (Means that this year he’s performing 10.4% better than a replacement TE in the same situation would).
FO ranks him as the 14th best TE in the league.
In 2008 his DVOA was -24.6%, meaning he was almost 25% worse than an average TE in the same situation.
2008 he was the 37th ranked TE in the league (which means he was ranked worse than many second string TE).
In 2007 his DVOA was -8.9%
2007 he was ranked 30th among TE.
In 2006 his DVOA was -30.4%
2006 he was ranked 40th among all TE.
In one year his production has increased from -24.6% DVOA to 10.4% DVOA. The reason his DVOA has improved so much can be attributed to Coach Singletary.
Just how effective was all of the
receivers in 2007? He was also hurt in 2006. He only played 10 games. Martz didn’t use him in the passing game in 2008. Of course he is putting up numbers this season because he is in an offense where he is the only receiver with more TD’s as a TE than the WR’s. Again, one more year of Turner would have probably produced better results. What was Dilfer’s DVOA that season?
Using 2006 DVOA without mentioning he not playing a full 16 is not the way it’s done. It doesn’t mean he would be a top ten TE, but let’s use some context here.
I attribute a players production on where he is put best, and I can agree that Singletary has put him in a better position now than before. But that’s it. Before that, VD in his situations prior wasn’t underachieving. If Battle is your leading TD receiver in 2006, and VD is just one TD under Battle, who is really underachieving? Battle had almost the same numbers as VD that year. That’s your 2 leading receivers Bubba.
VD might be putting up great numbers this year, but the rest of the offense is underachieving, even Gore outside of a few home runs. That tells you more of the story of VD this year than last year, especially at the WR position.
I like DVOA, but it isn’t telling the real story here Bubba.
Well, we're waiting....
Thanks smileyman
That’s two people (you and zack) backing me up.
See, drummer objects to ANYTHING I say. Therein lies the problem.
And in the process of disagreeing with EVERYTHING I say, he sounds completely clueless.
I made a SIMPLE statement hours ago: That VD underachieved under Mike Nolan.
No intelligent person would disagree.
Nobody would. Except the drummer boy.
Dude
Are you really this clueless?
it isn’t VD’s fault where he was drafted.
Umm, he worked out in the hopes of getting drafted as high as possible.
He and his agent negotiated a contract commensurate with his draft position.
He took the money. When you do that you are expected to produce. Get it?
In his second season he had roughly the same stats as a journeyman TE for the Chciago Bears.
You’ve heard of the Bears haven’t you? Not exactly known for their great passing attack.
BTW: Nice how you ignored my above post. you know the one where, after three comments about VD underachieving from 2006 – 2008, you start talking about the playcalling in 2009!
Incredible.
You simply don’t know what you’re talking about.
Again...
I don’t think it’s a good idea for you to bring in other poster’s remarks because you don’t really know the context of what they mean, and to bring them into the contentious flow of debate between you and without said poster being able to speak for themselves is a dangerous slope you’re sliding on. You have already brought in Fooch into this without Fooch here being able to speak for himself. You need to get a grip on yourself. and stop trying to misconstrue a poster’s comments without they providing the context themselves just to try to have people on your side. I’m sure they know how to use a reply button. They can freely join in here, if they choose. But for you to bring them in without their consent is not cool.
Well, we're waiting....
comments
Normally I prefer to stay out of your guys’ battles. Consider me the promoter and you guys battling it out in the steel cage!
by David Fucillo on Nov 26, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions
The context is plainly visible
to anyone who can read. As I pointed out there were TWO comments before zacksf’s post.
One form me and one from you.
He was agreeing with ME.
In response to his agreeing with me, you changed the subject and started talking about VD questioning the playcalling in 2009.
That WASN’T the topic, you genius.
Well..
Let zack post it. Don’t post it for him. Either way, I still respond to any of it.
Well, we're waiting....
He DID post it drummer boy
At 7:03 PM.
Go back and read it.
It’s all there in ‘black & white’ by clueless little friend.
I did read it..
again, I responded to it. If zack chooses to claify, I will take his words over your, simply because its between zack and I, not you, zack and I.
Well, we're waiting....
this banter is interesting i guess,
but I have a question for GeoMak (or others). Going back to the 46 in its heyday, I have never felt i really understood what happened in the “Miami game” (‘85, i think). I mean the Bears destroyed everyone else, but somehow Miami lit them up. Why? Dan Marino’s quick release, game play, problems on the Bears side…????
The Miami game
1. Jim McMahon didn’t play cause of injury (he went in late in the game to try and spark the team to no avail). McMahon’s absence didn’t help.
2. Two QB’s stand out in the past quarter century for quick releases, rarely getting sacked and for great passing ability. That would be Dan Marino & Peyton Manning.
Miami’s game plan on offense was simply better than Buddy’s on defense. They spread the field and isolated receivers such as Nat Moore on LB’s like Wilber Marshall.
The Dolphins outschemed the Bears. It’s that simple.
3. It was meant to be. One pass from Marino ricocheted off Dan Hampton’s helmet far downfield into the waiting arms of a Dolphin receiver. It was that kind of night for the Bears.
How did sacks sacks sacks get into VDavis Vdavis VDavis?
Love this site!!
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
I was using a Gladiator quote...
Kinda fitting given that insanity of the past 24 hours.
Well, we're waiting....
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