Alex Smith and the Shotgun Spread
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 4:40 PM PST
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PrintAs we've been discussing Smith and his success (or lack thereof) in the 49ers offense, many, myself included, have advocated moving toward a more open "spread" attack, utilizing plays mostly out of the shotgun. I've been advocating this because it has certainly seemed like Smith was more comfortable in this formation, and the 9ers offense as a whole is more successful.
During this conversation, some people have been wondering what the "spread", "shotgun", "desperation" or whatever you want to call it offense actually entails. To me, it means running plays primarily (>50%, more like 60-75%) from the shotgun, with either 3+WR, 2 WR 2 TE, or 2WR 1TE 2RB (that's 2 RB, not 1 RB, 1 FB). The latter formations allow for players to begin on the line and shift out to WR spots, or vice versa. What it DOES NOT mean is throwing on every down, completely abandoning the run.
I wanted to take a look at the Niners' O since Smith has been starting, and see how successful they've been when they're in the "spread", so I looked at every drive, and compiled all of the drives where >50% of the snaps were taken from the shotgun. I did this becasue I wanted to differentiate between when the offensive philosophy was to execute from the spread, as opposed to being forced to use more WR / the shotgun because of down and distance on isolated occasions. As a result, several of these drives include plays made from under center, and with non-spread personnel, but the overall drive conformed to the philosophy. The results may surprise you:
The Niners have had 14 such drives since Smith became the starter, surprisingly enough, only 2 in Houston. Here's how they went:
Green Bay
plays yards result
3 5 punt
9 50 turnover on downs
7 68 TD
3 2 punt
3 24 TD
7 83 TD
3 TD in 6 drives, 2 3 and outs, one of which had only 2 shotgun plays on 2nd and 15 and 3rd and 9.
Chicago
plays yards result
11 48 punt
On this drive, we ran 9 times. 6 times from the shotgun for 35 yards, with 3 successful runs (>33% required yardage on 1st down, >50% required yardage on 2nd down, >100% required yardage on 3rd or 4th down), and 3 times from under center for 2 yards with 0 successful runs.
Tennessee
plays yards result
9 82 TD
6 13 punt
1 0 int
11 78 TD
The last 2 drives are somewhat confusing, because the int happened on the only play of the drive, you can't really tell if they were truly going for a spread look or just an isolated play from the shotgun. I included it anyways because it met the criteria. The TD could be called a "garbage" TD, though technically they did have the opportunity to recover the onside kick to take posession to try to tie. However, this is the game some detractors point to and say "this is what happens when we try the spread". As it turns out, we didn't really try the spread very much in this game.
Indianapolis
plays yards result
7 89 TD
This was the 2 minute drive at the end of the first half of the game. As an aside, the number of plays marked (run formation) in this game was absolutely sickening. It's as if Sing and Raye have never seen our O Line.
Houston
plays yards result
7 73 TD
5 32 int
IMO if you're going to say that the TD at the end of the TEN game was a "garbage" TD and throw it out, you have to do the same for the int at the end of this game. I was surprised to find that there were only 2 drives that met my "spread" criteria in this game, I could have sworn it was more like the GB game.
Total - 14 drives, 7 TD, 4 punts, 2 ints, 1 turnover on downs.
All in all, I'd say we've been pretty successful, and this has completely reinforced my position that we should fully adopt the spread attack until a team shows they can stop it on a consistent basis.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Great job vil, also you may have too much time on your hands, or somthing else you need to clean off. Anyway I do not have the time nor knowlege of football to do as in depth analysis on the spread, and I hate to be the “from what I see on the field” guy but from what I see on the field when we run out of the spread we are far more successful. I love Mike Singletary and I think he will be a good coach for us, but his obstenace in not allowing Smith to throw the ball more is driving me crazy.
My Will Clark will kick your honor student's ass!
Good Write-Up
I’ll put in my obligatory game-theory warning, that if we move too drastically to one side of the ledger or the other the predictability will make it easier for the opposing team to defend.
However, I cannot judge as to the proportion of Niners plays from the spread because I’ve only seen the GB and MIN games.
It does look like the play-calling is actually very unpredictable, looking at the swing from the Tennessee game to the Chicago game and back with the Green Bay game, but obviously the execution has been lacking.
Lethargy
It has me
drgarx, I think i agree with you.
I think my post below (written at the same time) says the same thing less clearly.
I disagree with the game theory aspect. Just like a drive in the base offense will have some 3WR or shotgun looks, a spread oriented offense can have some run formations and traditional dropbacks mixed in as well. In fact, most of the drives outside of the GB game had a few plays from under center. And of course, as CHI showed, just because you’re in the shotgun doesn’t mean you can’t run, or even run it up the gut.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Like I said, I haven’t seen too many of the games.
If the Niners were to be operating solely out of the shotgun, then the defense would not have to worry about plays from under center. I’m not saying this is happening, and obviously it isn’t, from the two games I’ve seen.
It’s not run/pass, but predictability/unpredictability in formation itself. There are different components to cover in game prep for each offensive formation, and monotony reduces the difficulty of preparation.
It’s a general truism that may apply in the future but doesn’t now.
Lethargy
It has me
I wish it were that simple.
I agree, the spread has some advantages and it has been effective. It does some things to alleviate the problems arising from lack of protection, no pocket, etc.
I think that there is, however, an overriding problem:
If you give the opposing defense one offense to prepare for and to attack, then they will be able to successfully attack and destroy it because of the weakness of the offensive line.
I know this is not a news flash, and maybe it is boring, but it is the reality Sing and Raye and Alex Smith have to deal with every weak. It doesn’t go away. What they have to work with includes: weak tackles and a porous interior with ineffective guards etc. I don’t know if the coaches could do better. Maybe that is possible. But I do think they are doing a pretty good job of adjusting to and working with a very difficult circumstance at this time.
well yes
I agree with you 100%. If our OL was good, we probably wouldn’t be talking about this. However, there’s nothing we can do to improve the OL this year, and I want to figure out how to improve our chances right now.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
It is never the scheme!
It is always the execution. If we run spread and can execute (meaning attacking the defense) then we should, if we want to run every down, fine by me… as long as we ‘Execute’ the plays it will not matter what scheme we run; and apparently we are executing in the spread offense so why not continue this?
when you have a weak oline
you cannot dictate. You can only take what the defense “gives” you. (As distasteful as that may be.)
I agree
but then not having an O-line is not executing
perhaps… but in the end it should be safe to say that execution is the end all of any play, not the play itself. A team could run up the middle, or pass deep, if either is unsuccessful then it didn’t matter what the play was, but if one of them was executed properly in getting the yards, or more, as designed then that was a successful play.
Yes but
Certain players will execute different plays differently, you have to call plays that play to their strengths. Having Shaun Hill throw bombs all day in empty sets would be an exercise in futility, but Peyton Manning might be able to pull it off. Similiarly, the Vikings or Titans could probably go with heavy formations for most of the game and have a decent offense, but the Texans or Cardinals can’t pull that off.
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 25, 2009 3:23 AM PST up reply actions
A-11 Spread anyone?
with a little tweaking and the right personnel I would love to see it implemented, would make the Wildcat look fundamental
is that even legal in the NFL?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
sort of?
according to wikipedia, two QBs is legal, jersey numbers are not and those players would have to be declared eligible receivers before each snap.. .haha might slow down the game some from a time aspect
wow
I want winners! I want people that WANT to win!
by FearTheTree on Nov 29, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
it's legal
but defeats the purpose. Since the whole point of the A-11 is that any of the 8 guys are eligible. If you report which guys are eligible before hand, you lose the surprise.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
well, technically not any
but it’s determined by who’s on the LOS at the snap instead of by number / being declared eligible.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
No
It’s often the scheme. Especially when the scheme you’re running is not designed to the player’s strengths.
There are obvious moments of failed execution (3rd and inches or 4th and 1 come to mind), but when a play is called on 3rd and 9 and it’s only designed to give us 5 or 6 yards that’s a failure to scheme.
what about yac?
not to be argumentative, you are probably right.
The sad thing is I am not sure we always have time (protection) for a “fully developed” 9 yd play, LOL.
You can't rely on YAC
not in the NFL. You have have to be able to get the yards you need on the play you call and not pray that someone misses a tackle.
Yes and no ...
Back in the Montana-Young days, they would often through 7 or 8 yards downfield on a third-and-10, with the expectation that the receiver would get some YAC most of the time, and that even if they sometimes didn’t they had a better success rate than they would throwing further down the field, with the added advantage of tacking 7 yards onto a lot of our punts when we compelted the pass but didn’t get the first down.
For a lot of Walsh’s early years he came under a lot of criticism for not throwing past the sticks, but it was the high-percentage play.
Not that it necessarily is with this team, mind you. :)
And having the likes of Montana, Young, Rice, Taylor, and Owens usually makes those plays more effective lol
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Nov 26, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
but if the scheme matches the players strengths and then still do not execute, where does it all fall back to? the execution of the plays of course
Nice break down
Only gripe I have is with calling it a spread when we run from the shotgun. Some of those TE sets have Davis set up as a down lineman, or even Walker and Davis as down linemen.
Not hardly a spread offense.
I do agree that the offense is better from the shotgun.
If 40% of all our drives ended in TDs we’d be unstoppable on offense. The only thing I would add is a breakdown of drive results from under center (restricting to Alex Smith’s drives to keep things consistent). That would make for an interesting comparison.
Oh, and I’ve recced this. Nice work.
I still think of that as a “spread” oriented attack, because you can motion the TE’s and RB’s around. In fact, if Walker were better at running routes, I think a 2 WR 2 TE 1 RB base would be great, and just motion like crazy to throw off the D.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
basically
with the versatility of our players, any formation not involving Norris at least has the potential to spread the field
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
11 or 12 personnel
getting the FB off the field and going to the gun will suffice. Primarily because we have athletic TE’s who can stretch the field, split out wide, etc.
I agree with viliphied too that motion with TE’s on the field is crucial. Motioning in for blocking since the FB isn’t available, motioning out and across to identify the defense as well as spreading it out.
post
I actually scheduled the Jimmy Raye approval rating discussing a lot of this for tomorrow. If I get time I’ll change it (traveling for the holiday), otherwise we’ll just have a couple options for the discussion.
never mind
There’s enough difference in the nature of the two that I think they can work independently of each other.
by David Fucillo on Nov 24, 2009 7:01 PM PST up reply actions
I dunno
50% Shotgun/WR sets on a drive is very selective criteria. Someone posted a stat earlier today compiled by Fox Sports saying the shotgun vs non-shotgun statistics for Smith were almost identical.
but that's what it's not about
I wanted to see what the drives were like when they went into the drive with a spread philosophy, not just isolated plays where Smith is in the shotgun. I don’t think a shotgun play on 3rd and 13 after they ran it up the gut twice is the same as starting a drive / spending most of a drive in the shotgun.
Or rather, it’s not about shotgun or not, it’s about offensive philosophy, which extends beyond one play.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
in other words
it’s not just about Smith, per se, though he plays a big part in it, it’s about the offense as a whole, which operates VERY well out of this philosophy.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I'd love to see that
FO has posted information saying there’s been a huge difference between the two. There certainly was against Green Bay.
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 25, 2009 3:26 AM PST up reply actions
I think Viliphied is right in a way
though because what if the 21 or 22 personnel got you into 3rd and long? Then you go to a spread look to convert. Not the best position to put the spread into for evaluation purposes. Besides, we all want to know what the success of the approach is when more heavily used…since that’s what many are crying out for. When the defense knows you’ll be in that look…can you still execute?
Alex Smith The Coach Killer
When will anyone realize that this guy is NOT AN NFL QB AND NEVER WILL BE..The only question is will he get Singletary fired for believing in him..
He will always do just enough to lose you the game!!!
I BLAME THE YORKS
on a side note.,..WHY IS THIS POST HERE NO ONE CARES
"Pat is still just scratching the surface." - Coach Singletary on LB Patrick Willis
Sear vs seer?
Uh, I think maybe you mean “seer”, not “sear”. It means: one who can predict the future or one who practices divination by staring into a crystal globe. We could maybe substitute “TV” for crystal globe, but anyway, you are not one…
ummm… I think niners coaches have been Alex Smith killers. Having a new coordinator every year has stunted his development and Nolan handled him terribly. Having smith play with a messed up throwing shoulder was inexcusable. I remember reading an article earlier this year and trent dilfer said something along the lines of “Nolan threw Smith under the bus”
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Nov 26, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
That's a pretty compelling argument.
I like a lot of what Sing does, but it seems so obvious what this team needs to do to succeed offensively that it’s hard to know what to say. At a certain point, it becomes stubborness on his part.
This is the place where the GM or Jed need to step in and have a talk with him. Sing is only giving us platitudes in press conferences, which I understand, but please tell me that somebody’s having more substantial conversations with him behind the scenes.
I look at this "vertical" offense...
and it looks like an “ALL GO” offense. June Jones would approve of it. The Raiders should be envious of it.
Well, we're waiting....
Yeah...
There might be something to that if you manage to fix the line. I’d like to see the 49ers try to diversify the pass playbook by adding back some simple slant, hooks/hitches, posts and flats and whatnot.
honestly
do you really think they don’t have these in the playbook?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Personally I have to agree with Singletary on this one
We can’t abandon everything we have practiced on since the OTA’s, it doesn’t make sense. I would prefer we go to a hurry up offense to keep defenses on their heels. If I were the OC I would implement a lineup that would have Crabtree, Hill, Norris, Davis, and Gore as the offensive weapons, and bringing in Morgan as the next WR, simply because Hill is a faster WR that can get down field and apparently has a great pair of hands. I would run 4-5 different formations with the same core guys (said above minus morgan subbing him in for Morrris when I use spread.
I would then set up 10-12 plays, on a wristband, run and pass evenly for different down and distances and then just let him know to pass or run and let him choose the play from a wristband. This would eliminate the delay of games and give him time to read Def at the LOS. Also it would be a hurry up that he could get comfortable with and Spread options will be there because Gore can line up at WR and beat a LB. I’d use more formation shifts to help the run game. having Davis and Norris in on the spread would allow me to go from 2RB’s 1TE and 2WR to 1RB 4WR using Gore lined up out wide and Davis as well and helping protection with Norris. Teams can’t substitute if we don’t and it would keep them off balance we can run and pass using the same personnel and also spread the defense out of the Shotgun.
I don’t know how long it would take to implement this, but if your players know the playbook and you select with them as a whole what they are comfortable with run longer practices without contact just so players can adjust to each other it could be productive in 1 or two weeks.
I know that the OL is weak, but form what I seen Smith drops back to far out of the Shotgun and too far from under center, hence the easy protection breakdown. DE’s typically rush outside and get to Smith due to his depth on his drop. I have seen a lot of times where he has made it hard on the OL form 7 step drops and 5 steps out of the Shotgun. Going all out spread is not the way to go especially since we can all see that the WR’s and Smith are out of sinc with each other. The INT was not on Smith in the Gb game, at least not soley, but I would say it is a combination of a lack of reps with all the wr’s and te’s. Based on our weapons and poor O-line play I would use a different formation which could be confusing for defenses. When the FB is in the Defense brings another man in the box, I would use that to get Hill open down field.
X X X X X X X X
X X
X
Crabtree to the left then the OL, Gore split in the slot, Smith and Norris at the same depth with Norris providing support at our weakes OL position used for chipping and setting up screens to Davis and Gore. Now you can line up like this motion Davis or motion Norris amking the playfake effective and also sucking the defense in easier with the play fake. Of course Hill is out right and if the safety on his half of the field enters the box due to Norris’s presence I would go deep to Hill in one on one since Crab’s can get open.
Just a thought. I would use this defense to then go spread in the Hurry up
MC FG T G C G T VD JH
AS MN
This would be the type of Formation I would use with the same personnel, most teams would think Gore would be short routes but I would use him in the seam since he has good hands
The rest is history and this could easily solve the issue of using the spread before we are down too many points to where it is all we do and also allow balance. What do you guys think.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
Those Formations didn't come out right
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
I get what you're saying
I would then set up 10-12 plays, on a wristband, run and pass evenly for different down and distances and then just let him know to pass or run and let him choose the play from a wristband. This would eliminate the delay of games and give him time to read Def at the LOS. Also it would be a hurry up that he could get comfortable with and Spread options will be there because Gore can line up at WR and beat a LB. I’d use more formation shifts to help the run game. having Davis and Norris in on the spread would allow me to go from 2RB’s 1TE and 2WR to 1RB 4WR using Gore lined up out wide and Davis as well and helping protection with Norris. Teams can’t substitute if we don’t and it would keep them off balance we can run and pass using the same personnel and also spread the defense out of the Shotgun.
I like this idea. Why not let him call his own drive once or twice a game (and not in the 2 min warning when everyone is expecting it)?
Keep Walker back in as an extra blocker, release VD, MC, JH deep, FG across the middle.
Problem is Raye likes to release VD across the middle and hardly ever puts FG out as a WR.
However I would maybe keep M-Rob back there as he provides an extra dump-off if needed. Norris can’t catch a ball if we need a delayed route.
I also like the idea of bringing Norris in and then having everybody go deep as fast as they can. With Norris in the defense will be thinking either run or short pass and we might get someone open down the edges.
MC FG TGCGT VD JH
A MN
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
not working
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
It's weird
but the comments don’t like extra spaces.
Is this what you were going for? I like it but I think I would bring FG down on the other side of AS. That really screams run. Then you have MC and JH go deep, FG go out on short 5 yd pattern and Norris stay behind to block.
Spaces
I’m pretty sure the spaces issue is an HTML thing. It just doesn’t take excess spaces, no matter how many you put in.
I think.
Alex in the Gun
MattMaiocco:
“Alex Smith has attempted 92 passes in shotgun and been sacked 4 times. He’s been sacked 9 times from under center (only 63 attempts).”
for those wondering.
makes perfect sense
he can read the defense more easily, he’s immediately ready to throw, he’s further away from the defensive ends and can see them coming a bit better. If it didn’t hamper the running game, I’d say go to it full-time.
Jason Hill is turning the corner!
That's true on certain levels
Yes, the Texans’ defense might have relaxed a little bit when they were up 21-0 but they couldn’t stop the 49ers when it was 24-14 before finally stopping them when it was 24-21.
The same probably went for the Packers game but I am sure the DC told them at half about the 49ers possibly opening up their offense as they were down 20 and the fact that they had watched the game tape from the Texans game.
What I’m trying to say is it seems like once they got rolling in the shotgun sets, they gained enough confidence to keep running it with success. I know this wasn’t what Singletary and Raye had planned for the offense but I am pretty sure I’m not the only one who’s tired of watching them struggle to move the ball in the first half while Smith barely even gets time to throw every time he drops back.
Win the inning.
by Scooter Ellis on Nov 25, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
I somewhat agree.
I know one thing for sure: the Packers were probably crapping their pants before that last offensive possession.
"The defense relaxed" is basically B.S.
Yes, opening kick of the second half against the Texans, they might be relaxed. But when we march down and score, they wake up in a hurry. You really think that the Texans were relaxed at 24-14? You really think they intended to put us in a situation where a fluke play could win the game for us?
This is nonsense.
The same with the GB game. NFL teams know that a 20 point lead isn’t safe. We got within a score of GB with, what, almost six minutes left on the clock – anybody who thinks that happened because the defense let it happen is fooling themselves.
I never said relaxed. Giving it to us meaning giving us the underneath stuff so not to give up the bomb
If we are down 21 pts, and a team plays to give us the underneath stuff, it could take us 30 plays to score 3 tds vs 3 bombs giving us 3 tds. So not counting the other teams possessions that is quite the amount of time that comes off the clock. We are battling a finite amount of time and if each drive takes us 5 mins, with only 14 mins left, we lose.
bombs to me are one play, one td
As long as they can make us run MULTIPLE plays to score, then the time is against us. I’m thinking that’s why Smith has success when we are down by so much. NOT because we are using a magical formation. I think Raye should change it up more for sure, but mainly what he runs and passes from. Don’t always run with a FB, don’t always pass in shotgun, etc…
It looked like both Houston and GB were playing straight up
Their corners might have played off a little to avoid the big play, but it sure looked like they were both playing the same type of deffense in the second half, that they played in the first.
Don't trust this guy. He lies.
Yup
GB blitzed us 16 times in the second half. 16! That’s not playing soft.
The Houston defense didn’t change his strategy until the last drive.
I think we need a blend more than any one thing.
I think the tape is out there on us, when we are in a certain formation, we usually run, or in another, we usually pass. I just think we have to vary our looks and what we run out of them. Patriots line up and they could run anything out of anything. Us not so much, because when we have a FB, majority of the time we are running, since we like that lead blocker due to our weak OL.
If you go spread when he passes and run when we're under center......
yeah too predictable, it’s hard to make this call especially with Frank being our biggest weapon. Furthermore, I think we need to use more rollouts with flood routes to get Smith comfortable, he seems to be starting out games slowly.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
I agree
We don’t do any rollouts. I’d also like to see more sweeps and pitches to the edges (with or without Gore).
I think...
… Raye just needs to call plays early on that allow Smith to just air it out a couple times. He calls pass plays early on, but I’m thinking they’re designed to, basically, replace the run plays he would have otherwise called. It sounds silly to speak this way of an NFL quarterback, but Smith really needs the playcalling to get his head going earlier.
I would love to see us
go no huddle for the entire first quarter against the Jags. I have to wonder if we could get 2 or 3 TDs on the board really fast if we did that.
That may be...
… a little drastic, but I’m definitely for Smith running a no-huddle more often than he has been (which is when their backs are against the wall).
so...
run out of the shotgun. Worked against CHI.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
We scored 10 pts
You could almost say nothing worked. and if lineman hit the right gap it’s easier to stop based on Gore’s running style. He is not a quick accelerating shifty back he is more of a hit the hole and go.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
well to be fair
the sample was extremely small, but the runs we ran out of the shotgun worked, for the most part. Enough at least to try it a little more.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Shotgun runs
could be more diverse. End around runs (Morgan got 9 yards on one and we didn’t do it again). Sweeps where the guard pulls out.
You just have to design the right kind of running plays. You’re not going to get many off guard or tackle runs but there are other options.
This is also why we need to find ourselves a good change of pace back.
Is M Robinson still hurt?
Because an option spread with him and FG (sometimes Alex perhaps) could open things up in terms of predictability
Concussion
I doubt he will play next week, we usually sit players out a week
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
The more obvious this truth becomes.
The worse it makes Raye\Sing look.
Does anyone else remember all the talk that Raye was going to adjust the offense to the players strengths, unlike Martz? This now seems absurd.
This is GENIUS
I remember the knock on Martz was the fact that he ran his offense regardless of what the talent dictated. Everyone thought Raye would adjust his scheme to his talent, ie Gonzalez. Not working out too well.
Although, Raye is only in week 11 and to me, still learning what works for us and what doesn’t. Think about it, we only get to practice against our team. So we don’t know what works vs a team with Polamalu, or a team with a STUD pass rusher like Freeney. It takes a while to feel your way in this league. I do however think Raye could adjust a little faster, but it’s not Madden here folks.
i don't mean to be a homer here,
but it seems like he has been adjusting quite a bit. Maybe not as fast as one would like but, hmmm…, this isn’t easy or predictable (as hudd07 says).
On a somewhat related note, I am sort of impressed that there is not more miss-communication on offense, considering how little AS, AG, MC, VD, BM and JH have actually played together.
Another random comment: true Hill has speed (which complements Crabtree well), but i think coaches like Morgan’s toughness and blocking. (I am not saying I prefer Morgan, just that I think that might be a trade-off that is part of the issue of who is #2.)
Miscommunications
The miscommunications seem to exist, and without seeing the coaches’ film and knowing the play call, it’s hard to make a judgment on how much (or how little) it’s actually happening. Alex Smith could just be avoiding the throw to a particular receiver if the receiver is suddenly running an unexpected route, for example.
I could be wrong, but at least two of Smith’s interceptions have been on miscommunications.
yeah, that seemed like it could have been
VD’s mistake to me. Totally understandable, I think, but he is a hot receiver in that situation and should probably be looking for a quick pass, rather than running with his head down.
Oh please, just look at V Davis's season now and then
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
That's one guy
It can be argued that our other playmakers aren’t being utilized to their abilities. Or the Oline for instance. Our OL can’t handle 9 players in the box on a regular basis, they just aren’t talented enough, they can handle it more often when there is only 4 players rushing and they are spread out.
Two guys.
Crabtree is exceeding expectations, even for a #3 pick who dropped to #10. (Yeah!)
So what is the plan: ask the other team to only rush 4 guys?
the oline
is a lot better protecting in the spread because the defense usually rushes 4 – 5 when were in a 1back 3WR 1 TE shotgun. That way Alex can see who is actually coming and know what his match-ups are going to be BEFORE the snap.
exactly.
Zacksf, sometimes our formation dictates who rushes. Also if we are spread out, it opens up holes and allows Smith to see who is rushing. Bunched up, and I could be wrong, but I’m guessing looks a little confusing with 9 people RIGHT in front of you.
we can't stop a 3 man rush
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
Check the turnover's and also count the fact that we have been in every game except one
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
I don't think we were in the Texans game nor the GB game.
I know we almost came back but I don’t think we were IN the game.
The reason for Davis' progress is Raye?
I thought it was the Sing tough love and Vernon’s maturation via work ethic. Alex Smith has helped him a little bit too. Vernon has already expressed his love for the spread – and this is exactly what Raye has not done enough of.
Raye's offense is better for our best receiving option
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
If we need to be in the spread more than maybe we should go back to Hill
The spread makes us one dimensional, although it keeps Gore healthy it doesn’t utilize him.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
Could you explain your logic
I realize you hate Smith regardless, but please elaborate as to why Hill would be better out of the spread than Smith
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Nov 27, 2009 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
Being in the spread takes away form our best offensive weapon in Gore.
I don’t hate Smith I’d prefer him in at QB, but not if we need to go to spread (out of shotgun) majority of the time. If he can only be effective out of the spread we may as well go back to Hill, he did get drives for scores when we needed them.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
To be fair, one of the most important predictors of winning is success in either the passing game or the passing defense (or, ideally, both).
Running can make you competitive on offense, but throwing the ball makes you elite. The Patriots, Saints, and Colts are really the prototypes for this in the league right now, as teams that are elite passing teams with lesser running games.
However, the Vikings illustrate the point better. Competitive offensively when they have the best runner in the entire game. Best runner in the entire game = only okay on offense. Add a guy who can throw the ball: elite.
I love Gore. We all love Gore. But if we’re going to be anywhere near where we need to be on offense, it’s not going to come through him.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
Patriots Saints and Colts
You are talking about the top three Qb’s in the league and Alex doesn’t compare and can’t. He isn’t that accurate. On top of that the offense as a whole has not been in the same system as long as any of these teams, but we do have a better RB than all of those teams, yeah better complete back than Peterson, so the RB should be the focal point, going spread limits our options to get Gore the ball, simply because of the OL.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
Smiths Accuracy
I used to agree with that, but he has been very accurate lately. More than I though he was capable of.
if that's the case how can you have a meaningful argument that he has been VERY accurate lately?
Since many factors play into a completion percentage.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
your example
is like saying Albert Pujols is a bat hitter because he’s 3 for his last 15.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Baseball is not football so no it doesn't
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
what I'm saying is
you can’t point to a singular subpar performance and label it as a trend. Smith’s comp. % has been much higher this season as a whole, and pointing to one game and saying “Look! See! It sux!!!” is disingenuous at best.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
We're talking Smith being in the soread more often
And look at the results, it took a whole quarter to get a completion, thus the 49ers not being a passing team
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
I used those elite examples because they’re strong examples.
The point is that passing is much more important to the offense than running is. If Gore is the best thing about our offense, then we probably don’t have a very good one. Which is why I used the Peterson example. Those Vikings were struggling on offense – with the best running game in the league. Now, I’m not saying that Peterson isn’t important to their success this year, but it should be clear to anybody with eyes that reason they’re so fearful on offense this year is the addition of Favre.
Now, my point is admittedly a little weird here. I’m not saying that Alex Smith is elite in any way, and I’m not saying that we should minimize Frank Gore’s role in the offense. What I am saying is that the success of our offense depends on us being able to be a passing team. And that, more than that, if we abandon the types of plays that make our passing game effective, we’re abandoning the idea that our offense can be any good at all.
Interestingly enough, if you read Danny’s latest work, it’s actually been the case that Gore has been a more successful runner when we’ve played out of the shotgun. And that even if the shotgun commits us somehow to running less often, we are getting more overall value out of the running game when we do run the shotgun. Amazing how that works.
And Gore can be a pretty important piece of the passing game, too.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
Interestingly enough, if you read Danny’s latest work, it’s actually been the case that Gore has been a more successful runner when we’ve played out of the shotgun. And that even if the shotgun commits us somehow to running less often, we are getting more overall value out of the running game when we do run the shotgun. Amazing how that works.
I have issue with this little bit of statistical fodder. More effective per attempt but not enough attempts to qualify the offense as having a run game. The Patriots year in and year out have a highly rated running attack according to DVOA but no semblance of a real run game.
It’s a bit of the Tim Thomas vs Kevin Durant statistical noise the Sports Guy brought up about week ago with these type of statistics.
I won’t really argue with that. I agree that there is something misleading going on, and it’s a part of the DVOA system that gives me problems. It’s the same issue that says Joe Flacco has been more valuable this year than Aaron Rodgers. I’m willing to let DVOA take me to a point, but eventually total value does seem to become a major issue with the system.
However, I would say that, without looking at it much deeper, it seems to me that we’ve been getting so little value out of our running game in the normal offense, that even getting more value per play out of fewer plays is probably an improvement.
Where that line should actually be drawn is the bigger question, though. Do we get more overall value out of running a smaller number of higher value plays, or were we getting more overall value when the plays were less effective but we were running them more often?
There are numbers that could tell us which. I don’t know what they are. I’m inclined, based on what I’ve seen, to think the former. But I won’t argue if you think the latter.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 28, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
Well, DYAR is supposed to be the counting stat, but I’m pretty sure they only track it for individuals. However, Flacco and Rodgers have pretty similar stat lines this season, with Flacco only trailing by 200 yards with 30 fewer attempts.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Flacco’s better by DYAR as well. A lot of their stats are similar, and Flacco is a comp% winnar right now. But Rodgers throws about 40 more yards per game, and has a much higher TD percentage with a slightly lower INT percentage.
Some of that evens up when you account for surrounding talent and probably competition, but I’m not sure how it can be so severe a swing that Flacco is at least three quarterbacks better than Rodgers in both DYAR and DVOA. Something seems askew.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 28, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions
well
to be fair, the ratings are close enough that one subpar game from Flacco, paired with a good game from Rodgers would be enough to swing it. Don’t think of it as 3 QBs better, think of it as 60 yards better.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Gore is an excellent receiver out of the backfield.
Don’t see why he can’t put up the kind of numbers Ricky Watters used to put up with Steve Young.
And even as a rusher, Gore’s numbers have improved since Smith has replaced Hill.
Jason Hill is turning the corner!
How have his numbers improved?
He hasn’t rushed for 20 attempts since Smith has been in because the offense starts out so damn slow. Smith is the best option for the team but he is the worst 1st half option.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
Hill makes us pretty one dimensional.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
Alex is making us one dimensional as well
Spread is all I freakin’ hear
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
And yet the team isn’t actually doing it.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
did you not read the post?
You can (and should) run out of the spread. I really don’t see how the spread “takes away” Gore.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Too bad you don't see it the Threat of Gore is the most that's taken away
The spread doesn’t fit our running back’s style of play he is not a quick accleration guy and honestly I think he would flourish in a Shanahan zone blocking scheme, but as I said the spread or majority Shotgun takes away from Gore running the ball. More passes equal more INT chances and less runs takes away from ball security. Did I read the post? Did you read my reply, we were able to run out of the S-gun against the bears, yeah the weak ass bears and it won’t work against most of our remaining opponents, not even the Rams, but I guess seeing is believing and we will see when we are not able to be successful out of the Shotgun.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
Why though?
You just say this as if it’s obvious, but you don’t provide any evidence.
Also, Gore is VERY good catching passes out of the backfield, so the “Threat of Gore” is still there no matter what
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
According to the Head Coach
Gore is nore suited to using the few yards behind the QB to gain speed and hit the hole vs standing still getting the ball and running. He (gore) is not a quick acceleration player. That’s why with this LOLine Gore’s best run come when the QB is under center.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
not really
he busted a 20+ yard run taking the handoff from the shotgun formation just 2 weeks ago. There is no evidence that what you’re saying is actually the case.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
There isn't a large enough body of work to justify he is suited for running out of the Shotgun.
It’s not the way to go and that’s my opinion. we haven’t ran enough Shotgun plays to justify otherwise so you have no solid facts saying it is neccessary.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
right
and you have no solid facts saying it’s not. All I’m saying is that we should try it. And then (GASP) we’d actually have enough facts to know for sure~!
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
He can catch out of the backfield but majority of the time he is kept back in pass pro.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
That's excellent point
Crickets . .
I was struggling to succinctly bring up this point myself but you made it. The team is one dimensional in the so called spread and the ball is taken out of Frank Gore’s hands and given to Alex Smith. That’s playing towards your weakness.
It’s been two months, it’s time to give up this quick fix offensive formation campaign and just swallow the reality that the offense is below average. There is no coaching fix. The best the coaches can do is straddle the line most effectively each game between run and pass. The 49ers are not a good passing team, they are not a good running team for the same exact reason, the offensive line.
It’s been ridiculous reading so many comments thinking the offense can just improve with a different offensive philosophy and OC. Years and years of changing the offensive coordinator has proven it to be false. Now, the cry is for the ridiculous old Run N’ Shoot offense behind Alex Smith with one suitable receiver in Michael Crabtree. Ironically, these are the same people who think Jimmy Raye is nutz.
The hurry-up and spread have been completely ineffective when we're behind
We definitely should continue to bang our heads against the same wall with the same results. That makes much more sense than trying to open up with what has been working for us. Not to mention the run has actually had some success in the formation…
And Jimmy Raye has an approval rating of 2% or something like that. I gues we are all “nutz” and you are the God that sees all for what it truly is.
The spread offense has been ineffective?
Huh?
We haven’t won our games with it but we’ve certainly managed to put up a bunch of points using it.
I think the bigger problem isn’t the spread vs non spread but the fact that Raye doesn’t try to hit any homeruns in the 1st and 2nd quarters. He goes after singles, withe the occasional double, but before you can load the bases we’ve got 3 outs (mixing my sports metaphors here).
Oh, and Frank is actually more effective running out of the shotgun than from under center. Granted it’s a pretty small sample size (less than 20 runs if I remember right), but it can be done.
More effective?
Against the Bears? One game we use it and no one says anything about the one yard gain or the losses, just like running form under center.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
like i said in the post
(SSS applies) but he was successful on 50% of his runs from the shotgun, including a 20+ yarder.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
So maybe we shouldn't be acting like this will be the answer on O
With their not being enough evidence as in it will be beneficial in the long haul.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
No one’s saying it’s “the answer” we’re saying we should try it more until teams show that they can actually stop it consistently. Or, I mean, I guess we can just run the same thing that hasn’t worked all season, because well, the devil you know…
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
You need the extra evidence
to whether it is or is not the answer. For the long haul. Lots of teams have had success with it. Most of which have had RB’s who catch the ball very well out of the formations. Gore has a rare talent, why not use it more often and in different ways?
I just don't think we have the QB or the continuity for it.
We don’t have enough time together in this offense and furthermore our Offensive players are not in sync. Our D has been together longer and they break down more than enough. Trying it is opening the door to TO’s and what do you do when you get the TO’s early? Go back to the same stuff. I understand it will be good to mix in. I think we should be trying to get the WR’s out there but keep the Qb under center. Trust me I understand the frustration but I think Jimmy nailed it here.
http://blog.49ers.com/2009/11/27/raye-addresses-smith-and-spread-offense/
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
It sounds like desperation to me
From what I gathered in his comments. It sounds like a fly by the seat of your pants philosophy if I’ve ever heard one.
So does yours
SO we stop what we are doing and implement a new offense for everyone, to compliment Smith? Obviously we don’t have a lot of spread in the offense or we would have seen something early in the season or early in Smith starting. Desperation is kinda like beggin’ for the spread.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
We have been 1-4 in the last 5
What is it going to hurt? Why bang your head against the same wall and hope for different results?
If you are going to play the record angle than the 49ers are 3-1 with the 3 yards and cloud of dust offense.
Against who?
And the only reason we won the AZ game is because of that last drive where Hill ran something similiar.
Also
even if it is not a wide variety of plays…when we have ran it, it has been successful VERY successful. If we start a game fast like that, then again, whats it going to hurt? Nothing….we’ve been losing
I thought we passed early and often
in the Packer game and when did Smith get his 1st completion, if he can only be successful out of the spread, we need to be drafting another QB and parting ways with him.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
Well, you have to play with the players you have
And our offense has clearly (and it’s not remotely ambiguous) been more effective in the spread.
It’s building around Alex, but it’s also building around Crabtree, Morgan, Hill and Davis, since it’s putting the ball in their hands more.
It's building on Smith not the rest of the O
Those players could be successful running routes with a QB under center. If the passing game was a threat then Defenses would send less pressure.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
Is Gore really an asset to this team the way he's performing this year?
I’m not sure. Those long runs are great. On the other hand, we’ve been in second- and third- and long a lot this year, because Gore’s shorter runs have not been effective. (I suspect, though I don’t have the tools to calculate it right now, that there’s a large gap between his mean and median runs this year.)
I love Gore’s home-run ability, but right now he’s the equiavlent of a slugger who hits 40 out of the park but strikes out 180 times. I actually think a RB is more valuable is he’s consistently above average, rather than feast-or-famine.
Now, this may be more the line’s fault than Gore’s, but I think it means that the spread isn’t playing away from our stengths.
Gore isn't a shifty back
He’s hard to bring down in the secondary and he can knock defenders over, but he’s not going to be able to juke to the hole that suddenly opens. He’s missed some big holes a couple of times because of this.
This is why we need a change of speed back in. I’m not convinced that Coffee is that guy. I’d like to see what M-Rob can do there as well.
Running back by committee sucks for fantasy teams and individual stats for a player but it works which is why so many teams do it.
Interesting point
I realized recently that over the past 5 years most elite running teams have heavily used RB duos or even committees (the Giants had Earth, Wind and Fire.) Even the premier running backs have a complementary RB (AP has Chester Taylor, Chris Johnson has White, back when LT was the best in the game he had Turner.) The niners haven’t yet found the Robin to Gore’s Batman. Coffee may become that, but he currently is not
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Nov 27, 2009 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
Mean/Median
Probably, I think:
Mean = over 6 yards per carry.
Median = under 3 yards per carry (and maybe less).
Their QB is much better, wish we had a chance to draft him!
They have at least two maybe three WR to our one.
Ok redo, bad offensive line, average QB and woefully inexperienced receivers.
Their QB did get to sit a few years
Plus their defense has better def backs so they can apply more pressure, and not to mention they have been in the same offense for more than one season.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
it’s time to give up this quick fix offensive formation campaign and just swallow the reality that the offense is below average.
Which perfectly sums up the defeated kind of attitude that I’m reacting against when I say:
What I am saying is that the success of our offense depends on us being able to be a passing team. And that, more than that, if we abandon the types of plays that make our passing game effective, we’re abandoning the idea that our offense can be any good at all.
So then… is it better to try to run an offense that only seems to function out of a quick-fix formation in the hopes that our offense isn’t bad, or is it better to give up and remove all doubt?
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
Apologies to Mark Twain.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
Defeatist, I see it more as understanding the limitation. The offense isn’t good. I think it’s better to mitigate their mistakes instead of exasperating their mistakes Bears ’06 Rex Grossman style.
Yeah, I get where you’re coming from. I obviously have different feelings about it, but I know what you mean.
Mostly, though, I just thought it was cool to be able to turn that Twain quote into a football context.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 28, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
its pretty hard to improve on a Twain quote
but you did a commendable job. Just stay away from Yogi’s work!
Shaun and Alex ~ A Commitment to Mediocrity
the statistics do not back that up
Look at the sack numbers out of the Spread.
The line does suck, but when you force the defense to play smaller guys then the line doesn’t suck as much.
true, but that is just compensating for weak oline
by becoming a 1-dimensional, gimicky team. The oline is still bad; the sacks are avoided by simplifying the blocking schemes and avoiding normal things that QB’s could do safely if they had an Oline.
We are giving up so much on 2nd down plays…..its sick. Alex has no adjustment capabilities. Any time you see a lb or de spying the blitz, you can almost bet the sack is coming. hes not into moving the chains either. we need a qb that can make the adjustments…not just run the plays…..improvise daaaaaamitt.
All this desperate planning
for an offense that will might work right now is rooted in trying to compensate for an oline that is unable to provide the time for normal things like:
1) play action with a 5 step drop
2) 7 step drops
etc…
Is that really the highest priority?
Our Coach is in his 1st full year.
Our QB has started about 5 games this year.
Our best receiver is 22 years old.
Our tight end is 25.
The Oline is injured and incapable of providing normal protection…
Everybody wants to win.
Rebuilding is a process and our process has been effected by many things including Crabtree, Smith, the loss of Staley, Pashos, etc.
Let’s keep some perspective, and if anyone wants to bet that the 49ers will not be in the play-offs 2010/11, you can (try to) win some of my money.
Drew K, and others
I am not saying you are necessarily wrong.
What you suggest might be the best way for the team to win the next game.
I am just genuinely not sure what the trade-offs are, (for example, in terms of team and player development.)
(and I am feeling very optimistic about the near-term future, i.e., after the next draft, and I guess I am a little patient.)
If you go down that road and start doing it
every week.
Would it work?
Is that who we want t be?
I doubt it?
continuing to take a reasonable numbers of snaps under center
might be good for Alex’s development.
(If it doesn’t kill him.)
I agree with the spread attack
I have wondered for quite some time why we didn’t use this offensive scheme. I believe it goes back to Jimmy Raye and his conservative nature. In order to be successful, we need to put Alex Smith and the rest of the offense in a position to succeed. Teams have really struggled trying to stop our offense in this mode.
USE THE SPREAD OFFENSE !!!!!!
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/9836/steve-young-49ers-could-be-stuck
I agree with the HOF QB, our HOF Head Coach, and my self!!
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
And you can whup Chuck Norris!
Seriously, you need to work on your ‘linking’ skills. That was a very good article that nobody read.
The link above:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/9836/steve-young-49ers-could-be-stuck
Yes rlott#42, Crabtree...can block
Steve Young's comment:
“If he is really only able to thrive in the spread, then that might not be the dilemma of the week, but it is the dilemma of the year and onto next year as to exactly how they are going to do that,” Young said. “Now, I can’t believe that if you can play competent quarterback in the spread that you can’t transition to understand how to play quarterback in the I (formation). I did it and all of the above and it just doesn’t seem like that is all that hard to do.”
Does he realize that we have to have a decent offensive line first in order for Smith to be successful out of all the formations? Clearly when Smith has time, he does well as he did today. This falls on the O-line. For some reason they block way worse out of the I (formation) than when in shotgun…or have 10 guys in the box. Smith can be effective when and if he has the time to be. The reason Young was successful in that formation is because of a far superior line to this one.
Steve Young is pretty smart
I think he knows more about pro football than 50 of us put together.
An NFL QB has to be able to take snaps from under center. That’s just a fact.
It really doesn’t matter whether his O line is decent or not. He’s getting paid millions to learn how to be successful out of all formations. If he can’t cut it, he should be replaced. The same holds true for the O line.
I’m not asking him to be superman. I’m asking him to do the same things other successful quarterbacks are doing around the league under similar circumstances.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
Once again we agree!
"Optimist Prime"
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Yes 10fortech, Crabtree can block, should the two drops question other things? I know none of those passes came down like a punt!!!
It happens every so often
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
It really doesn’t matter whether his O line is decent or not.
Whoa! …. that’s really all I have to say to that. Steve Young didn’t have a line when with Tampa, how did he do then? Did he figure it out then? Or was he sacked 68 times over the course of 19 games and not given a chance to?
http://www.nfl.com/players/steveyoung/careerstats?id=YOU299670
He was horrible his first 4 years in the league (2 of which with Tampa)… I dont care if you put Joe Montana, Dan Marino, or John Elway behind this the line we have had all season…it would not make one bit of difference. When defenses are virtually taking snaps for us and are in the backfield before the QB’s first step on his dropback then how could you possibly use that as an argument?
I’m not asking him to be superman. I’m asking him to do the same things other successful quarterbacks are doing around the league under similar circumstances.
Name another QB in NFL history that has been successful with a horrible O-line. All successful QB’s tend to have at the very least an average offensive line. That is a fact.
Smith has shown he can throw from under center anyhow
Again….when he has time. Whether he is in shotgun or under center does not matter. Whether or not he has had time to throw does matter.
You might be being a little optimistic ...
… but I do think comfort is a huge factor with Smith. I suspect that as he gains experience under center, he will continue to improve there.
But we’ll have to wait and see.
You might be being a little smipleminded
with you subtle little slaps here an there.
Your comments are typically and most often annoying. You argue for the sake of arguing in most cases.
Even here, in a topic you seem to hold the same opinion of, you have to throw in a stupid little remark to preface.
Do you really want to make it personal, Drew?
You evidently didn’t understand the meaning of the word “if” when you got all pissy claiming I calling you a racist in the “Redskins” thread.
That was a basic reading comprehension issue, and you failed miserably, so you shouldn’t be calling anyone simpleminded.
Do you REALLY want to go there?
And what I said about you is truth
I have seen you do it with others as well
PERSONALLY… I dont care to respond to your non-sense anymore
Ah, the old "some of my best friends are black" argument. You have have prejudiced ideas against a group and still like individuals of that group. I don’t care how many black friends you have, if you turn around and call someone a "f****ing n****r" you’re using offensive language.
You also used the word “You” in that example…you know damnwell you were directing that at me! So dont sit there and try and play it down. You were very much wrong in your comment and if you want to sit there and deny it, then go ahead and be a liar…i dont care.
Then don't.
But I would learn what the word “if” means, should you decide you want to participate in english-language forms of communication.
BOTH OF YOU NEED TO STOP
There’s a reason I closed that FanPost, and I’ll delete your comments here if this continues.
by David Fucillo on Nov 30, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions
Whoa?
I don’t think you or Drew K understood what I said.
Let me rephrase:
It really doesn’t matter whether his O line is decent or not. As a matter of fact, it doesn’t even matter if his coach is decent, or even if his team is decent, an NFL QB has to be able to take snaps from under center if he wants to play in this league.
Did you read the article?
Here’s the link again:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/9836/steve-young-49ers-could-be-stuck
If Smith cannot play well across personnel groups and formations, the 49ers cannot win with him over the long term. Young drove home that point.
I believe Steve Young agrees with me.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
this guy
named Tom Brady would like to have a word with you.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
OK
10forTech:
Mr. Brady, wouldn’t you agree that Alex Smith needs to be proficient at taking a snap from under center if he wants to be the complete NFL Quarterback? You know, 5-7 step drop back and pass, play action, hand off, QB sneak, etc.
TB:
Absolutely. I completely agree with you and the legendary Steve Young.
10forTech:
Thanks. I knew you’d say that. Oh, and by the way, give my regards to your wife, Jazelle.
TB:
Score!
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
really?
You think that’s what the guy who throws 75% of his passes from the shotgun would say? Cuz I think he’d say something more along the lines of: “Well, that may have been true when Steve was playing, but the game is constantly evolving, and I think that we’ve shown that offenses can be successful in today’s NFL with extensive use of the shotgun.”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Putting words into Brady's mouth
10forTech:
Tom, would you care to clarify that last sentence for me? Did you say ‘extensive’ or ‘exclusive’? Because ‘extensive’ suggests offenses are doing something else at least part of the time. And that means offenses need to be successful at something else besides the shotgun at least part of the time. Don’t you agree?
Your not advocating NFL offenses running the shot gun exclusively, are you? Because that doesn’t seem wise to me or Steve Young.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
Where did I say that?
Or even imply it? Hell, even Florida doesn’t run the shotgun EXCLUSIVELY.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
So you bring up a gimmick offense?
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
Jazelle? Gazelle
I think it’s Giselle
"Pat is still just scratching the surface." - Coach Singletary on LB Patrick Willis
Well, I know what she looks like, lol
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
Why Tom Brady has had success under center.
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
Eh.
I think there have been inferior QBs (to Manning) that have run a shotgun offense fairly well. The Bills for a while almost exclusively ran shotgun-3WR sets. As did the Falcons before the arrival of Vick. The offenses weren’t always the reasons for the franchises’ losing seasons.
You're not really going to use the Bills and Falcons as examples we should copy, are you?
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
I'm not sure you're aware
but the Bills were pretty good for a while there. Something about 4 super bowl appearances in 4 years or something?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
In 1990, the Bills switched to a hurry-up offense, (frequently with Kelly in the shotgun formation, the “K-gun”, named for tight-end Keith McKeller) and it started one of the most successful runs in NFL history.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Key word: frequently
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
and no one's suggested otherwise.
It’s not like Smith trips over his own feet dropping back from under center. However I would not be disappointed if we took the Pats approach and threw 75% of our passes from the gun.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
All I'm saying
Tom Brady is successful from under center. Something I’m sure he works on frequently because 25% of the time he needs to be.
Is Alex Smith? Maybe that’s something he needs to work on.
That’s all I think Steve Young was trying to point out.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
Brady has been operating out of that Sohotgun for years
Smith has for weeks
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
I'm not suggesting copying.
I’m just saying an offense run from the shotgun isn’t the worst thing in the world if it continues to work. While it would be completely awesome to have a QB that can also take snaps from under center, I don’t think it’s all that necessary, as Young makes it out to be.
If it gives the 49ers their best chance at winning, and they can still be deceptive at it, I don’t see where the downside is. The 49ers have been running fairly well out of the shotgun, even if some trickery has to be involved (i.e. the Walker reverse). It’s not like the Falcons decided they wanted to force Chris Chandler to play in the shotgun. He was better in it, so they used him there. Similarly, it’s not like the Bills wanted to force Kelly into the shotgun. He was better there. Even Thurman Thomas was successful out of the shotgun as a RB, taking direct snaps and such.
Success is possible if that is the strength of your QB. To write off the QB before watching him fail continually at it is kind of elitist/narrow-minded.
Let me post it again
If Smith cannot play well across personnel groups and formations, the 49ers cannot win with him over the long term.
No one is writing off the QB:
“There is no reason why we can’t get Alex to get under center,” Young said. “It is a matter of time, if we can withstand the growing pains of doing that. But there is no reason he cannot get somebody under center in the offseason and really work it out.”from the link above
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
I don’t accept the premise. Or rather, I think he can play well across personnel groups and formations, and that the vast majority of those formations involve him being in the shotgun.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
This.
My comment relates primarily to the audio that that article was based off of. Young’s tone makes it sound like he doesn’t think a QB will sustain success if he plays predominantly from the shotgun. He goes as far as calling Peyton Manning an “outlier” in an audio interview and that a QB must learn to play from behind center. Basically, he thinks the 49ers must force to learn how to play under center, and I disagree.
I think that IF Smith shows that he can be successful from the shotgun over the course of the rest of the season, I don’t think the 49ers HAVE to get him “under center in the offseason and really work it out.” As they say: don’t fix what ain’t broken, and if Smith is successful, it ain’t broken.
But you're leaving out one of the 49ers best weapons
Again from the link above:
“They are stuck with an All-Pro running back (Frank Gore) that needs a certain formation and then up-and-coming stars that need another formation,” Young said. “And they have no way to meld the two because they really aren’t compatible.”I suppose the 49ers could use Frank Gore as a blocker…
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
no offense to mr. young
but that’s really stupid. I discussed this in the Gore thread, but there’s absolutely no evidence that suggests that Gore can’t be effective running out of the shotgun.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
and further
if it IS the case that Gore can’t be effective out of the shotgun, and it’s a choice between Gore being effective, or Smith and Crabtree and Morgan and Hill and Vernon and Walker being effective, well, that’s really not a choice at all.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Lest we go back over the importance of your passing offense as it relates to your ability to win games.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 1, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
Gore is more than just a runner.
And he has had success running from the shotgun. As I mentioned above, Thurman Thomas made it work from the gun. I don’t see why the 49ers can’t run Gore on direct snaps, or use him more as a receiving back. Gore is probably one of the best receiving backs in the league.
Gore has been an effective receiver throughout his career ...
… but more to the point, yes, the team needs to maximize the value it gets from its weapons.
And the question is simply this: is what they give up from Gore by running a majority of plays form the shotgun made up for by the increased productivity they get from Smith and the receivers.
I think the answer is yes, although that’s in part because I feel that, this season, Gore has not been a particularly effective back. Everybody loves the long runs, but Gore’s a home-run-or-strikeout kind of guy this year, and I think all the second-and-longs he’s putting us in this year are hurting us more than the long TD runs are helping us.
But if the offensive line improved enough to get Gore past the line of scrimmage more consistently, I might feel differently. In those circumstances, however, we might also expect to see Smith’s under-center play improve, as well.
and in addition
I still haven’t had anyone give me an example of a run that Gore can run with Alex under center that he can’t do from the shotgun. Or explanations of why he’d be less effective running those plays from the shotgun, with actual stats to back them up.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I haven’t had anyone give me example of why Alex Smith cannot pass based off out of I-Formation with Crabtree the single WR in the slot. VD, Gore and Crabtree would still be involved in the passing plays, OMG . . . I don’t get it.
Hi mr. strawman.
We tried that on some plays with little success. In any case, it doesn’t put our best players on the field. The line has’t been able to block as effectively with Smith under center.
We’ve seen that Smith is more effective out of the shotgun without question. We’ve also seen that Gore can be effective running out of the shotgun in limited attempts. We don’t have enough data to know whether he can be effective long term or not, but it’s worth a shot.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I still don't see your stats
I just cannot except your answer because until there is some statistical proof. If it was so trivial you’d have stats to back this claim up.
From what I see our best players are still on the field based off a power run game, I-Formation: VD, Crabs, Gore, Walker and Smith.
OMG
A) I didn’t say it was trivial to show that, you did. and
B) you’re right, it might be successful. It’s unlikely to be successful for a lot of deep passes because TEs and RBs tend to run less deep patterns than WRs. However, I suppose that in theory one could compose an offense that allows the TEs and RBs to function essentially as extra WRs in the patterns they run. No one’s tried it yet that I’ve seen, and in theory at least it could be successful. However, I’m not going to spend any effort to prove/disprove that because no one is suggesting we do that.
To recap – to date, I’ve made no positive claims about the offense (except that Smith is better from the shotgun. If you don’t believe that, I direct you to Sando’s blog today mentioning Smith’s 90+ rating from the shotgun). You have. The burden of proof rests on the person making the positive claim. If you claim that Gore CAN’T be successful running from the ‘gun, you have to provide some evidence to that effect. If you’re only claiming that he MAY NOT be successful from the gun, well, you’re right. He may not, but we don’t have enough evidence yet to know yet, so I’m not sure what the argument is.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Seriously?
People have posted Smiths’ stats in the shotgun vs. under center, as well as on drives that are mostly shotgun vs on drives that are mostly under center, multiple times in this thread and others. Maiocco had some of ’em on his blog.
Smith completes a higher perecentage of his passes and throws fewer interceptions from the shotgun. This is not disputable.
I don't have time to look up the stats right now ...
But by and large in a shotgun spread you don’t have a fullback, so blocking is harder.
Even when you do have a fullback, the RB is taking the ball farther from the line of scrimage. This means that the defenders have more time to converge on the ballcarrier before he gets to the line of scrimmage. It’s also easier for LBs to see what’s going on and react appropriately.
Misdirection run plays can work well from the shotgun, because there are usually fewer defenders in the box, and more space between them. In those circumstances, you’re actually relying on the slower development of the play so tacklers can take themselves out of position. But power running is usually about hitting fast and hard, and in the shotgun you can’t do that.
It's a different league now
than it was in Steve’s day. Teams run their offense much more from the shotgun than they did when he was playing.
What Steve Young was trying to say
It’s absurd to think franchise QB’s don’t have to be good under center. Even Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are under center at least part of the time. This is something Alex Smith is going to have to work on if he wants to be successful in the NFL.
Can the 49ers run a spread type offense like the Patriots or Colts? Of course, but Alex Smith will still have to be proficient under center.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
Peyton Manning spends most of his time under center. Most Colts pass plays are based off play action. Houston has essentially copied their offense. Shanahan ran the same offense in Denver for a decade. Drew Brees even lines up under center . . . Drew Brees makes passes under any formation.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Peyton Manning spends most of his time under center
Really? Of his 35 pass attempts last week, 7 were made from under center.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Maybe this is somewhat true for 2009. Since the 49ers game the Colts have given up on the run game. They still run a lot of play action when they can get away with it.
no they haven't
22 rushing attempts and 116 yards last week.
24 rushing attempts for 74 yards the week before
18 attempts for 91 yards the week before that.
That’s hardly “giving up on the run game”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
what are you talking about?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl