Alex Smith and the Shotgun Spread
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 4:40 PM PST
404 comments
As we've been discussing Smith and his success (or lack thereof) in the 49ers offense, many, myself included, have advocated moving toward a more open "spread" attack, utilizing plays mostly out of the shotgun. I've been advocating this because it has certainly seemed like Smith was more comfortable in this formation, and the 9ers offense as a whole is more successful.
During this conversation, some people have been wondering what the "spread", "shotgun", "desperation" or whatever you want to call it offense actually entails. To me, it means running plays primarily (>50%, more like 60-75%) from the shotgun, with either 3+WR, 2 WR 2 TE, or 2WR 1TE 2RB (that's 2 RB, not 1 RB, 1 FB). The latter formations allow for players to begin on the line and shift out to WR spots, or vice versa. What it DOES NOT mean is throwing on every down, completely abandoning the run.
I wanted to take a look at the Niners' O since Smith has been starting, and see how successful they've been when they're in the "spread", so I looked at every drive, and compiled all of the drives where >50% of the snaps were taken from the shotgun. I did this becasue I wanted to differentiate between when the offensive philosophy was to execute from the spread, as opposed to being forced to use more WR / the shotgun because of down and distance on isolated occasions. As a result, several of these drives include plays made from under center, and with non-spread personnel, but the overall drive conformed to the philosophy. The results may surprise you:
The Niners have had 14 such drives since Smith became the starter, surprisingly enough, only 2 in Houston. Here's how they went:
Green Bay
plays yards result
3 5 punt
9 50 turnover on downs
7 68 TD
3 2 punt
3 24 TD
7 83 TD
3 TD in 6 drives, 2 3 and outs, one of which had only 2 shotgun plays on 2nd and 15 and 3rd and 9.
Chicago
plays yards result
11 48 punt
On this drive, we ran 9 times. 6 times from the shotgun for 35 yards, with 3 successful runs (>33% required yardage on 1st down, >50% required yardage on 2nd down, >100% required yardage on 3rd or 4th down), and 3 times from under center for 2 yards with 0 successful runs.
Tennessee
plays yards result
9 82 TD
6 13 punt
1 0 int
11 78 TD
The last 2 drives are somewhat confusing, because the int happened on the only play of the drive, you can't really tell if they were truly going for a spread look or just an isolated play from the shotgun. I included it anyways because it met the criteria. The TD could be called a "garbage" TD, though technically they did have the opportunity to recover the onside kick to take posession to try to tie. However, this is the game some detractors point to and say "this is what happens when we try the spread". As it turns out, we didn't really try the spread very much in this game.
Indianapolis
plays yards result
7 89 TD
This was the 2 minute drive at the end of the first half of the game. As an aside, the number of plays marked (run formation) in this game was absolutely sickening. It's as if Sing and Raye have never seen our O Line.
Houston
plays yards result
7 73 TD
5 32 int
IMO if you're going to say that the TD at the end of the TEN game was a "garbage" TD and throw it out, you have to do the same for the int at the end of this game. I was surprised to find that there were only 2 drives that met my "spread" criteria in this game, I could have sworn it was more like the GB game.
Total - 14 drives, 7 TD, 4 punts, 2 ints, 1 turnover on downs.
All in all, I'd say we've been pretty successful, and this has completely reinforced my position that we should fully adopt the spread attack until a team shows they can stop it on a consistent basis.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Great job vil, also you may have too much time on your hands, or somthing else you need to clean off. Anyway I do not have the time nor knowlege of football to do as in depth analysis on the spread, and I hate to be the “from what I see on the field” guy but from what I see on the field when we run out of the spread we are far more successful. I love Mike Singletary and I think he will be a good coach for us, but his obstenace in not allowing Smith to throw the ball more is driving me crazy.
My Will Clark will kick your honor student's ass!
by jbowl on Nov 24, 2009 5:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Good Write-Up
I’ll put in my obligatory game-theory warning, that if we move too drastically to one side of the ledger or the other the predictability will make it easier for the opposing team to defend.
However, I cannot judge as to the proportion of Niners plays from the spread because I’ve only seen the GB and MIN games.
It does look like the play-calling is actually very unpredictable, looking at the swing from the Tennessee game to the Chicago game and back with the Green Bay game, but obviously the execution has been lacking.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Nov 24, 2009 5:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
drgarx, I think i agree with you.
I think my post below (written at the same time) says the same thing less clearly.
by zacksf on Nov 24, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with the game theory aspect. Just like a drive in the base offense will have some 3WR or shotgun looks, a spread oriented offense can have some run formations and traditional dropbacks mixed in as well. In fact, most of the drives outside of the GB game had a few plays from under center. And of course, as CHI showed, just because you’re in the shotgun doesn’t mean you can’t run, or even run it up the gut.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, I haven’t seen too many of the games.
If the Niners were to be operating solely out of the shotgun, then the defense would not have to worry about plays from under center. I’m not saying this is happening, and obviously it isn’t, from the two games I’ve seen.
It’s not run/pass, but predictability/unpredictability in formation itself. There are different components to cover in game prep for each offensive formation, and monotony reduces the difficulty of preparation.
It’s a general truism that may apply in the future but doesn’t now.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Nov 25, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish it were that simple.
I agree, the spread has some advantages and it has been effective. It does some things to alleviate the problems arising from lack of protection, no pocket, etc.
I think that there is, however, an overriding problem:
If you give the opposing defense one offense to prepare for and to attack, then they will be able to successfully attack and destroy it because of the weakness of the offensive line.
I know this is not a news flash, and maybe it is boring, but it is the reality Sing and Raye and Alex Smith have to deal with every weak. It doesn’t go away. What they have to work with includes: weak tackles and a porous interior with ineffective guards etc. I don’t know if the coaches could do better. Maybe that is possible. But I do think they are doing a pretty good job of adjusting to and working with a very difficult circumstance at this time.
by zacksf on Nov 24, 2009 5:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
well yes
I agree with you 100%. If our OL was good, we probably wouldn’t be talking about this. However, there’s nothing we can do to improve the OL this year, and I want to figure out how to improve our chances right now.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It is never the scheme!
It is always the execution. If we run spread and can execute (meaning attacking the defense) then we should, if we want to run every down, fine by me… as long as we ‘Execute’ the plays it will not matter what scheme we run; and apparently we are executing in the spread offense so why not continue this?
by danknerd49 on Nov 24, 2009 5:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
when you have a weak oline
you cannot dictate. You can only take what the defense “gives” you. (As distasteful as that may be.)
by zacksf on Nov 24, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
but then not having an O-line is not executing
by danknerd49 on Nov 24, 2009 5:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
let me rephrase that…
when the O-line does not execute the play then the play was not successfully executed.
by danknerd49 on Nov 24, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You may have a kernel of truth in that.
But blanket statement is untrue.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Nov 24, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps… but in the end it should be safe to say that execution is the end all of any play, not the play itself. A team could run up the middle, or pass deep, if either is unsuccessful then it didn’t matter what the play was, but if one of them was executed properly in getting the yards, or more, as designed then that was a successful play.
by danknerd49 on Nov 24, 2009 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but
Certain players will execute different plays differently, you have to call plays that play to their strengths. Having Shaun Hill throw bombs all day in empty sets would be an exercise in futility, but Peyton Manning might be able to pull it off. Similiarly, the Vikings or Titans could probably go with heavy formations for most of the game and have a decent offense, but the Texans or Cardinals can’t pull that off.
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 25, 2009 3:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What I meant was that the scheme has an impact on the execution. Varying the scheme will change the effectiveness, depending on what the defense is expecting and what you have run through in practice the most.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Nov 25, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A-11 Spread anyone?
with a little tweaking and the right personnel I would love to see it implemented, would make the Wildcat look fundamental
by danknerd49 on Nov 24, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
is that even legal in the NFL?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sort of?
according to wikipedia, two QBs is legal, jersey numbers are not and those players would have to be declared eligible receivers before each snap.. .haha might slow down the game some from a time aspect
by danknerd49 on Nov 24, 2009 9:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
I want winners! I want people that WANT to win!
by Iwantwinners on Nov 29, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it's legal
but defeats the purpose. Since the whole point of the A-11 is that any of the 8 guys are eligible. If you report which guys are eligible before hand, you lose the surprise.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Nov 29, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well, technically not any
but it’s determined by who’s on the LOS at the snap instead of by number / being declared eligible.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 29, 2009 6:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No
It’s often the scheme. Especially when the scheme you’re running is not designed to the player’s strengths.
There are obvious moments of failed execution (3rd and inches or 4th and 1 come to mind), but when a play is called on 3rd and 9 and it’s only designed to give us 5 or 6 yards that’s a failure to scheme.
by smileyman on Nov 24, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what about yac?
not to be argumentative, you are probably right.
The sad thing is I am not sure we always have time (protection) for a “fully developed” 9 yd play, LOL.
by zacksf on Nov 24, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't rely on YAC
not in the NFL. You have have to be able to get the yards you need on the play you call and not pray that someone misses a tackle.
by smileyman on Nov 24, 2009 9:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no ...
Back in the Montana-Young days, they would often through 7 or 8 yards downfield on a third-and-10, with the expectation that the receiver would get some YAC most of the time, and that even if they sometimes didn’t they had a better success rate than they would throwing further down the field, with the added advantage of tacking 7 yards onto a lot of our punts when we compelted the pass but didn’t get the first down.
For a lot of Walsh’s early years he came under a lot of criticism for not throwing past the sticks, but it was the high-percentage play.
Not that it necessarily is with this team, mind you. :)
by Ronaldinho on Nov 24, 2009 9:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Different game back then too
The game has evolved a lot in 10 years.
by smileyman on Nov 24, 2009 10:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And having the likes of Montana, Young, Rice, Taylor, and Owens usually makes those plays more effective lol
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Nov 26, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
but if the scheme matches the players strengths and then still do not execute, where does it all fall back to? the execution of the plays of course
by danknerd49 on Nov 24, 2009 9:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice break down
Only gripe I have is with calling it a spread when we run from the shotgun. Some of those TE sets have Davis set up as a down lineman, or even Walker and Davis as down linemen.
Not hardly a spread offense.
I do agree that the offense is better from the shotgun.
If 40% of all our drives ended in TDs we’d be unstoppable on offense. The only thing I would add is a breakdown of drive results from under center (restricting to Alex Smith’s drives to keep things consistent). That would make for an interesting comparison.
Oh, and I’ve recced this. Nice work.
by smileyman on Nov 24, 2009 5:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I still think of that as a “spread” oriented attack, because you can motion the TE’s and RB’s around. In fact, if Walker were better at running routes, I think a 2 WR 2 TE 1 RB base would be great, and just motion like crazy to throw off the D.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 6:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
basically
with the versatility of our players, any formation not involving Norris at least has the potential to spread the field
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 6:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
11 or 12 personnel
getting the FB off the field and going to the gun will suffice. Primarily because we have athletic TE’s who can stretch the field, split out wide, etc.
I agree with viliphied too that motion with TE’s on the field is crucial. Motioning in for blocking since the FB isn’t available, motioning out and across to identify the defense as well as spreading it out.
by Tre9er on Nov 25, 2009 6:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
post
I actually scheduled the Jimmy Raye approval rating discussing a lot of this for tomorrow. If I get time I’ll change it (traveling for the holiday), otherwise we’ll just have a couple options for the discussion.
by Fooch on Nov 24, 2009 6:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
never mind
There’s enough difference in the nature of the two that I think they can work independently of each other.
by Fooch on Nov 24, 2009 7:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
50% Shotgun/WR sets on a drive is very selective criteria. Someone posted a stat earlier today compiled by Fox Sports saying the shotgun vs non-shotgun statistics for Smith were almost identical.
by bignerd on Nov 24, 2009 8:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
but that's what it's not about
I wanted to see what the drives were like when they went into the drive with a spread philosophy, not just isolated plays where Smith is in the shotgun. I don’t think a shotgun play on 3rd and 13 after they ran it up the gut twice is the same as starting a drive / spending most of a drive in the shotgun.
Or rather, it’s not about shotgun or not, it’s about offensive philosophy, which extends beyond one play.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 10:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
in other words
it’s not just about Smith, per se, though he plays a big part in it, it’s about the offense as a whole, which operates VERY well out of this philosophy.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 24, 2009 10:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see that
FO has posted information saying there’s been a huge difference between the two. There certainly was against Green Bay.
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 25, 2009 3:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Viliphied is right in a way
though because what if the 21 or 22 personnel got you into 3rd and long? Then you go to a spread look to convert. Not the best position to put the spread into for evaluation purposes. Besides, we all want to know what the success of the approach is when more heavily used…since that’s what many are crying out for. When the defense knows you’ll be in that look…can you still execute?
by Tre9er on Nov 25, 2009 7:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alex Smith The Coach Killer
When will anyone realize that this guy is NOT AN NFL QB AND NEVER WILL BE..The only question is will he get Singletary fired for believing in him..
He will always do just enough to lose you the game!!!
by The Sear on Nov 24, 2009 9:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I BLAME THE YORKS
on a side note.,..WHY IS THIS POST HERE NO ONE CARES
"Pat is still just scratching the surface." - Coach Singletary on LB Patrick Willis
by 49erLou on Nov 25, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sear vs seer?
Uh, I think maybe you mean “seer”, not “sear”. It means: one who can predict the future or one who practices divination by staring into a crystal globe. We could maybe substitute “TV” for crystal globe, but anyway, you are not one…
by zacksf on Nov 25, 2009 3:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
KNOWS HOW TO WIN THE GAME!!!!ONE
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Nov 25, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ummm… I think niners coaches have been Alex Smith killers. Having a new coordinator every year has stunted his development and Nolan handled him terribly. Having smith play with a messed up throwing shoulder was inexcusable. I remember reading an article earlier this year and trent dilfer said something along the lines of “Nolan threw Smith under the bus”
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Nov 26, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty compelling argument.
I like a lot of what Sing does, but it seems so obvious what this team needs to do to succeed offensively that it’s hard to know what to say. At a certain point, it becomes stubborness on his part.
This is the place where the GM or Jed need to step in and have a talk with him. Sing is only giving us platitudes in press conferences, which I understand, but please tell me that somebody’s having more substantial conversations with him behind the scenes.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 24, 2009 9:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I look at this "vertical" offense...
and it looks like an “ALL GO” offense. June Jones would approve of it. The Raiders should be envious of it.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Nov 25, 2009 1:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
There might be something to that if you manage to fix the line. I’d like to see the 49ers try to diversify the pass playbook by adding back some simple slant, hooks/hitches, posts and flats and whatnot.
by sigma on Nov 25, 2009 6:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
honestly
do you really think they don’t have these in the playbook?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Nov 27, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally I have to agree with Singletary on this one
We can’t abandon everything we have practiced on since the OTA’s, it doesn’t make sense. I would prefer we go to a hurry up offense to keep defenses on their heels. If I were the OC I would implement a lineup that would have Crabtree, Hill, Norris, Davis, and Gore as the offensive weapons, and bringing in Morgan as the next WR, simply because Hill is a faster WR that can get down field and apparently has a great pair of hands. I would run 4-5 different formations with the same core guys (said above minus morgan subbing him in for Morrris when I use spread.
I would then set up 10-12 plays, on a wristband, run and pass evenly for different down and distances and then just let him know to pass or run and let him choose the play from a wristband. This would eliminate the delay of games and give him time to read Def at the LOS. Also it would be a hurry up that he could get comfortable with and Spread options will be there because Gore can line up at WR and beat a LB. I’d use more formation shifts to help the run game. having Davis and Norris in on the spread would allow me to go from 2RB’s 1TE and 2WR to 1RB 4WR using Gore lined up out wide and Davis as well and helping protection with Norris. Teams can’t substitute if we don’t and it would keep them off balance we can run and pass using the same personnel and also spread the defense out of the Shotgun.
I don’t know how long it would take to implement this, but if your players know the playbook and you select with them as a whole what they are comfortable with run longer practices without contact just so players can adjust to each other it could be productive in 1 or two weeks.
I know that the OL is weak, but form what I seen Smith drops back to far out of the Shotgun and too far from under center, hence the easy protection breakdown. DE’s typically rush outside and get to Smith due to his depth on his drop. I have seen a lot of times where he has made it hard on the OL form 7 step drops and 5 steps out of the Shotgun. Going all out spread is not the way to go especially since we can all see that the WR’s and Smith are out of sinc with each other. The INT was not on Smith in the Gb game, at least not soley, but I would say it is a combination of a lack of reps with all the wr’s and te’s. Based on our weapons and poor O-line play I would use a different formation which could be confusing for defenses. When the FB is in the Defense brings another man in the box, I would use that to get Hill open down field.
X X X X X X X X
X X
X
Crabtree to the left then the OL, Gore split in the slot, Smith and Norris at the same depth with Norris providing support at our weakes OL position used for chipping and setting up screens to Davis and Gore. Now you can line up like this motion Davis or motion Norris amking the playfake effective and also sucking the defense in easier with the play fake. Of course Hill is out right and if the safety on his half of the field enters the box due to Norris’s presence I would go deep to Hill in one on one since Crab’s can get open.
Just a thought. I would use this defense to then go spread in the Hurry up
MC FG T G C G T VD JH
AS MN
This would be the type of Formation I would use with the same personnel, most teams would think Gore would be short routes but I would use him in the seam since he has good hands
The rest is history and this could easily solve the issue of using the spread before we are down too many points to where it is all we do and also allow balance. What do you guys think.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 25, 2009 7:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Those Formations didn't come out right
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 25, 2009 7:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I get what you're saying
I would then set up 10-12 plays, on a wristband, run and pass evenly for different down and distances and then just let him know to pass or run and let him choose the play from a wristband. This would eliminate the delay of games and give him time to read Def at the LOS. Also it would be a hurry up that he could get comfortable with and Spread options will be there because Gore can line up at WR and beat a LB. I’d use more formation shifts to help the run game. having Davis and Norris in on the spread would allow me to go from 2RB’s 1TE and 2WR to 1RB 4WR using Gore lined up out wide and Davis as well and helping protection with Norris. Teams can’t substitute if we don’t and it would keep them off balance we can run and pass using the same personnel and also spread the defense out of the Shotgun.
I like this idea. Why not let him call his own drive once or twice a game (and not in the 2 min warning when everyone is expecting it)?
Keep Walker back in as an extra blocker, release VD, MC, JH deep, FG across the middle.
Problem is Raye likes to release VD across the middle and hardly ever puts FG out as a WR.
However I would maybe keep M-Rob back there as he provides an extra dump-off if needed. Norris can’t catch a ball if we need a delayed route.
I also like the idea of bringing Norris in and then having everybody go deep as fast as they can. With Norris in the defense will be thinking either run or short pass and we might get someone open down the edges.
by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MC FG TGCGT VD JH
A MN
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 25, 2009 7:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
not working
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 25, 2009 7:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's weird
but the comments don’t like extra spaces.
Is this what you were going for? I like it but I think I would bring FG down on the other side of AS. That really screams run. Then you have MC and JH go deep, FG go out on short 5 yd pattern and Norris stay behind to block.
by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alex in the Gun
MattMaiocco:
“Alex Smith has attempted 92 passes in shotgun and been sacked 4 times. He’s been sacked 9 times from under center (only 63 attempts).”
for those wondering.
by Tre9er on Nov 25, 2009 9:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I was just going to post that
I find it a fascinating statistic.
by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
makes perfect sense
he can read the defense more easily, he’s immediately ready to throw, he’s further away from the defensive ends and can see them coming a bit better. If it didn’t hamper the running game, I’d say go to it full-time.
Jason Hill is turning the corner!
by grantmp on Nov 25, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is the success because of us being in a "spread" type offense or because we are down 21 points and the defense is giving it to us?
by hudd07 on Nov 25, 2009 11:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
That's true on certain levels
Yes, the Texans’ defense might have relaxed a little bit when they were up 21-0 but they couldn’t stop the 49ers when it was 24-14 before finally stopping them when it was 24-21.
The same probably went for the Packers game but I am sure the DC told them at half about the 49ers possibly opening up their offense as they were down 20 and the fact that they had watched the game tape from the Texans game.
What I’m trying to say is it seems like once they got rolling in the shotgun sets, they gained enough confidence to keep running it with success. I know this wasn’t what Singletary and Raye had planned for the offense but I am pretty sure I’m not the only one who’s tired of watching them struggle to move the ball in the first half while Smith barely even gets time to throw every time he drops back.
Win the inning.
by Scooter Ellis on Nov 25, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I somewhat agree.
I know one thing for sure: the Packers were probably crapping their pants before that last offensive possession.
by sfgfan on Nov 25, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"The defense relaxed" is basically B.S.
Yes, opening kick of the second half against the Texans, they might be relaxed. But when we march down and score, they wake up in a hurry. You really think that the Texans were relaxed at 24-14? You really think they intended to put us in a situation where a fluke play could win the game for us?
This is nonsense.
The same with the GB game. NFL teams know that a 20 point lead isn’t safe. We got within a score of GB with, what, almost six minutes left on the clock – anybody who thinks that happened because the defense let it happen is fooling themselves.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 25, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said relaxed. Giving it to us meaning giving us the underneath stuff so not to give up the bomb
If we are down 21 pts, and a team plays to give us the underneath stuff, it could take us 30 plays to score 3 tds vs 3 bombs giving us 3 tds. So not counting the other teams possessions that is quite the amount of time that comes off the clock. We are battling a finite amount of time and if each drive takes us 5 mins, with only 14 mins left, we lose.
by hudd07 on Nov 25, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We still got bombs in the second half
completions of 32, 35, and 38 yards.
by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
bombs to me are one play, one td
As long as they can make us run MULTIPLE plays to score, then the time is against us. I’m thinking that’s why Smith has success when we are down by so much. NOT because we are using a magical formation. I think Raye should change it up more for sure, but mainly what he runs and passes from. Don’t always run with a FB, don’t always pass in shotgun, etc…
by hudd07 on Nov 25, 2009 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It looked like both Houston and GB were playing straight up
Their corners might have played off a little to avoid the big play, but it sure looked like they were both playing the same type of deffense in the second half, that they played in the first.
Don't trust this guy. He lies.
by urnext on Nov 25, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
GB blitzed us 16 times in the second half. 16! That’s not playing soft.
The Houston defense didn’t change his strategy until the last drive.
by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need a blend more than any one thing.
I think the tape is out there on us, when we are in a certain formation, we usually run, or in another, we usually pass. I just think we have to vary our looks and what we run out of them. Patriots line up and they could run anything out of anything. Us not so much, because when we have a FB, majority of the time we are running, since we like that lead blocker due to our weak OL.
by hudd07 on Nov 25, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you go spread when he passes and run when we're under center......
yeah too predictable, it’s hard to make this call especially with Frank being our biggest weapon. Furthermore, I think we need to use more rollouts with flood routes to get Smith comfortable, he seems to be starting out games slowly.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 25, 2009 12:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree
We don’t do any rollouts. I’d also like to see more sweeps and pitches to the edges (with or without Gore).
by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 12:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
… Raye just needs to call plays early on that allow Smith to just air it out a couple times. He calls pass plays early on, but I’m thinking they’re designed to, basically, replace the run plays he would have otherwise called. It sounds silly to speak this way of an NFL quarterback, but Smith really needs the playcalling to get his head going earlier.
by sfgfan on Nov 25, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to see us
go no huddle for the entire first quarter against the Jags. I have to wonder if we could get 2 or 3 TDs on the board really fast if we did that.
by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That may be...
… a little drastic, but I’m definitely for Smith running a no-huddle more often than he has been (which is when their backs are against the wall).
by sfgfan on Nov 25, 2009 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so...
run out of the shotgun. Worked against CHI.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 25, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We scored 10 pts
You could almost say nothing worked. and if lineman hit the right gap it’s easier to stop based on Gore’s running style. He is not a quick accelerating shifty back he is more of a hit the hole and go.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 25, 2009 12:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well to be fair
the sample was extremely small, but the runs we ran out of the shotgun worked, for the most part. Enough at least to try it a little more.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 25, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Shotgun runs
could be more diverse. End around runs (Morgan got 9 yards on one and we didn’t do it again). Sweeps where the guard pulls out.
You just have to design the right kind of running plays. You’re not going to get many off guard or tackle runs but there are other options.
This is also why we need to find ourselves a good change of pace back.
by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is M Robinson still hurt?
Because an option spread with him and FG (sometimes Alex perhaps) could open things up in terms of predictability
by danknerd49 on Nov 25, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Concussion
I doubt he will play next week, we usually sit players out a week
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 26, 2009 11:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The more obvious this truth becomes.
The worse it makes Raye\Sing look.
Does anyone else remember all the talk that Raye was going to adjust the offense to the players strengths, unlike Martz? This now seems absurd.
by goatfather on Nov 25, 2009 1:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This is GENIUS
I remember the knock on Martz was the fact that he ran his offense regardless of what the talent dictated. Everyone thought Raye would adjust his scheme to his talent, ie Gonzalez. Not working out too well.
Although, Raye is only in week 11 and to me, still learning what works for us and what doesn’t. Think about it, we only get to practice against our team. So we don’t know what works vs a team with Polamalu, or a team with a STUD pass rusher like Freeney. It takes a while to feel your way in this league. I do however think Raye could adjust a little faster, but it’s not Madden here folks.
by hudd07 on Nov 25, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't mean to be a homer here,
but it seems like he has been adjusting quite a bit. Maybe not as fast as one would like but, hmmm…, this isn’t easy or predictable (as hudd07 says).
On a somewhat related note, I am sort of impressed that there is not more miss-communication on offense, considering how little AS, AG, MC, VD, BM and JH have actually played together.
Another random comment: true Hill has speed (which complements Crabtree well), but i think coaches like Morgan’s toughness and blocking. (I am not saying I prefer Morgan, just that I think that might be a trade-off that is part of the issue of who is #2.)
by zacksf on Nov 25, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Miscommunications
The miscommunications seem to exist, and without seeing the coaches’ film and knowing the play call, it’s hard to make a judgment on how much (or how little) it’s actually happening. Alex Smith could just be avoiding the throw to a particular receiver if the receiver is suddenly running an unexpected route, for example.
I could be wrong, but at least two of Smith’s interceptions have been on miscommunications.
by sfgfan on Nov 25, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
for instance, the one last week was a miscommunication.
by hudd07 on Nov 25, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, that seemed like it could have been
VD’s mistake to me. Totally understandable, I think, but he is a hot receiver in that situation and should probably be looking for a quick pass, rather than running with his head down.
by zacksf on Nov 25, 2009 7:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He he is adjusting quite a bit.
After the game is out of reach and our defense is tired.
by goatfather on Nov 26, 2009 10:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh please, just look at V Davis's season now and then
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 25, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's one guy
It can be argued that our other playmakers aren’t being utilized to their abilities. Or the Oline for instance. Our OL can’t handle 9 players in the box on a regular basis, they just aren’t talented enough, they can handle it more often when there is only 4 players rushing and they are spread out.
by hudd07 on Nov 25, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Two guys.
Crabtree is exceeding expectations, even for a #3 pick who dropped to #10. (Yeah!)
So what is the plan: ask the other team to only rush 4 guys?
by zacksf on Nov 25, 2009 8:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the oline
is a lot better protecting in the spread because the defense usually rushes 4 – 5 when were in a 1back 3WR 1 TE shotgun. That way Alex can see who is actually coming and know what his match-ups are going to be BEFORE the snap.
by goatfather on Nov 26, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly.
Zacksf, sometimes our formation dictates who rushes. Also if we are spread out, it opens up holes and allows Smith to see who is rushing. Bunched up, and I could be wrong, but I’m guessing looks a little confusing with 9 people RIGHT in front of you.
by hudd07 on Nov 27, 2009 6:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, you are right,
the O-line stinks and we work like crazy each week to work around that.
by zacksf on Nov 25, 2009 8:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
we can't stop a 3 man rush
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 26, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Check the turnover's and also count the fact that we have been in every game except one
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 27, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we were in the Texans game nor the GB game.
I know we almost came back but I don’t think we were IN the game.
by hudd07 on Nov 27, 2009 6:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The reason for Davis' progress is Raye?
I thought it was the Sing tough love and Vernon’s maturation via work ethic. Alex Smith has helped him a little bit too. Vernon has already expressed his love for the spread – and this is exactly what Raye has not done enough of.
by goatfather on Nov 26, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Raye's offense is better for our best receiving option
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 26, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If we need to be in the spread more than maybe we should go back to Hill
The spread makes us one dimensional, although it keeps Gore healthy it doesn’t utilize him.
"Optimist Prime"
My favorite threads of discussion include drummer, chesapekebayer, nocal81, Brendan Scolari, an occasional chime in from Fooch to stop the name callin', smileyman, drew k, chikmagnet_565, and who could forget #10 for Tech......
Honorable Mention to howtheyscored, kazvareet,bignerd, ninjames
Yeah a partaaaaaaay!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 26, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Could you explain your logic
I realize you hate Smith regardless, but please elaborate as to why Hill would be better out of the spread than Smith
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Nov 27, 2009 9:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Being in the spread takes away form our best offensive weapon in Gore.
I don’t hate Smith I’d prefer him in at QB, but not if we need to go to spread (out of shotgun) majority of the time. If he can only be effective out of the spread we may as well go back to Hill, he did get drives for scores when we needed them.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 27, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, one of the most important predictors of winning is success in either the passing game or the passing defense (or, ideally, both).
Running can make you competitive on offense, but throwing the ball makes you elite. The Patriots, Saints, and Colts are really the prototypes for this in the league right now, as teams that are elite passing teams with lesser running games.
However, the Vikings illustrate the point better. Competitive offensively when they have the best runner in the entire game. Best runner in the entire game = only okay on offense. Add a guy who can throw the ball: elite.
I love Gore. We all love Gore. But if we’re going to be anywhere near where we need to be on offense, it’s not going to come through him.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Patriots Saints and Colts
You are talking about the top three Qb’s in the league and Alex doesn’t compare and can’t. He isn’t that accurate. On top of that the offense as a whole has not been in the same system as long as any of these teams, but we do have a better RB than all of those teams, yeah better complete back than Peterson, so the RB should be the focal point, going spread limits our options to get Gore the ball, simply because of the OL.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 27, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take Peterson over Gore in a heartbeat.
by hudd07 on Nov 27, 2009 6:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would too
BUT gORE IS A better ALL AROUND RB
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 8:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Smiths Accuracy
I used to agree with that, but he has been very accurate lately. More than I though he was capable of.
by goatfather on Nov 27, 2009 6:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
His most recent game was Green Bay
He was 48.5 percent
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not a meaningful counterargument
Since many factors play into a completion percentage.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 28, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
if that's the case how can you have a meaningful argument that he has been VERY accurate lately?
Since many factors play into a completion percentage.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
your example
is like saying Albert Pujols is a bat hitter because he’s 3 for his last 15.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 28, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball is not football so no it doesn't
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what I'm saying is
you can’t point to a singular subpar performance and label it as a trend. Smith’s comp. % has been much higher this season as a whole, and pointing to one game and saying “Look! See! It sux!!!” is disingenuous at best.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 28, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We're talking Smith being in the soread more often
And look at the results, it took a whole quarter to get a completion, thus the 49ers not being a passing team
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I used those elite examples because they’re strong examples.
The point is that passing is much more important to the offense than running is. If Gore is the best thing about our offense, then we probably don’t have a very good one. Which is why I used the Peterson example. Those Vikings were struggling on offense – with the best running game in the league. Now, I’m not saying that Peterson isn’t important to their success this year, but it should be clear to anybody with eyes that reason they’re so fearful on offense this year is the addition of Favre.
Now, my point is admittedly a little weird here. I’m not saying that Alex Smith is elite in any way, and I’m not saying that we should minimize Frank Gore’s role in the offense. What I am saying is that the success of our offense depends on us being able to be a passing team. And that, more than that, if we abandon the types of plays that make our passing game effective, we’re abandoning the idea that our offense can be any good at all.
Interestingly enough, if you read Danny’s latest work, it’s actually been the case that Gore has been a more successful runner when we’ve played out of the shotgun. And that even if the shotgun commits us somehow to running less often, we are getting more overall value out of the running game when we do run the shotgun. Amazing how that works.
And Gore can be a pretty important piece of the passing game, too.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 8:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interestingly enough, if you read Danny’s latest work, it’s actually been the case that Gore has been a more successful runner when we’ve played out of the shotgun. And that even if the shotgun commits us somehow to running less often, we are getting more overall value out of the running game when we do run the shotgun. Amazing how that works.
I have issue with this little bit of statistical fodder. More effective per attempt but not enough attempts to qualify the offense as having a run game. The Patriots year in and year out have a highly rated running attack according to DVOA but no semblance of a real run game.
It’s a bit of the Tim Thomas vs Kevin Durant statistical noise the Sports Guy brought up about week ago with these type of statistics.
by bignerd on Nov 28, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I won’t really argue with that. I agree that there is something misleading going on, and it’s a part of the DVOA system that gives me problems. It’s the same issue that says Joe Flacco has been more valuable this year than Aaron Rodgers. I’m willing to let DVOA take me to a point, but eventually total value does seem to become a major issue with the system.
However, I would say that, without looking at it much deeper, it seems to me that we’ve been getting so little value out of our running game in the normal offense, that even getting more value per play out of fewer plays is probably an improvement.
Where that line should actually be drawn is the bigger question, though. Do we get more overall value out of running a smaller number of higher value plays, or were we getting more overall value when the plays were less effective but we were running them more often?
There are numbers that could tell us which. I don’t know what they are. I’m inclined, based on what I’ve seen, to think the former. But I won’t argue if you think the latter.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 28, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, DYAR is supposed to be the counting stat, but I’m pretty sure they only track it for individuals. However, Flacco and Rodgers have pretty similar stat lines this season, with Flacco only trailing by 200 yards with 30 fewer attempts.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 28, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Flacco’s better by DYAR as well. A lot of their stats are similar, and Flacco is a comp% winnar right now. But Rodgers throws about 40 more yards per game, and has a much higher TD percentage with a slightly lower INT percentage.
Some of that evens up when you account for surrounding talent and probably competition, but I’m not sure how it can be so severe a swing that Flacco is at least three quarterbacks better than Rodgers in both DYAR and DVOA. Something seems askew.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 28, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well
to be fair, the ratings are close enough that one subpar game from Flacco, paired with a good game from Rodgers would be enough to swing it. Don’t think of it as 3 QBs better, think of it as 60 yards better.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 28, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gore is an excellent receiver out of the backfield.
Don’t see why he can’t put up the kind of numbers Ricky Watters used to put up with Steve Young.
And even as a rusher, Gore’s numbers have improved since Smith has replaced Hill.
Jason Hill is turning the corner!
by grantmp on Nov 27, 2009 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How have his numbers improved?
He hasn’t rushed for 20 attempts since Smith has been in because the offense starts out so damn slow. Smith is the best option for the team but he is the worst 1st half option.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 27, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hill makes us pretty one dimensional.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alex is making us one dimensional as well
Spread is all I freakin’ hear
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 27, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And yet the team isn’t actually doing it.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
did you not read the post?
You can (and should) run out of the spread. I really don’t see how the spread “takes away” Gore.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 27, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad you don't see it the Threat of Gore is the most that's taken away
The spread doesn’t fit our running back’s style of play he is not a quick accleration guy and honestly I think he would flourish in a Shanahan zone blocking scheme, but as I said the spread or majority Shotgun takes away from Gore running the ball. More passes equal more INT chances and less runs takes away from ball security. Did I read the post? Did you read my reply, we were able to run out of the S-gun against the bears, yeah the weak ass bears and it won’t work against most of our remaining opponents, not even the Rams, but I guess seeing is believing and we will see when we are not able to be successful out of the Shotgun.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 27, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why though?
You just say this as if it’s obvious, but you don’t provide any evidence.
Also, Gore is VERY good catching passes out of the backfield, so the “Threat of Gore” is still there no matter what
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 27, 2009 7:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
According to the Head Coach
Gore is nore suited to using the few yards behind the QB to gain speed and hit the hole vs standing still getting the ball and running. He (gore) is not a quick acceleration player. That’s why with this LOLine Gore’s best run come when the QB is under center.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 8:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not really
he busted a 20+ yard run taking the handoff from the shotgun formation just 2 weeks ago. There is no evidence that what you’re saying is actually the case.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 28, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There isn't a large enough body of work to justify he is suited for running out of the Shotgun.
It’s not the way to go and that’s my opinion. we haven’t ran enough Shotgun plays to justify otherwise so you have no solid facts saying it is neccessary.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
right
and you have no solid facts saying it’s not. All I’m saying is that we should try it. And then (GASP) we’d actually have enough facts to know for sure~!
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 28, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes ~ thank you for de-circularizing that circular argument.
Shaun and Alex ~ A Commitment to Mediocrity
by riderless on Nov 29, 2009 9:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He can catch out of the backfield but majority of the time he is kept back in pass pro.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's excellent point
Crickets . .
I was struggling to succinctly bring up this point myself but you made it. The team is one dimensional in the so called spread and the ball is taken out of Frank Gore’s hands and given to Alex Smith. That’s playing towards your weakness.
It’s been two months, it’s time to give up this quick fix offensive formation campaign and just swallow the reality that the offense is below average. There is no coaching fix. The best the coaches can do is straddle the line most effectively each game between run and pass. The 49ers are not a good passing team, they are not a good running team for the same exact reason, the offensive line.
It’s been ridiculous reading so many comments thinking the offense can just improve with a different offensive philosophy and OC. Years and years of changing the offensive coordinator has proven it to be false. Now, the cry is for the ridiculous old Run N’ Shoot offense behind Alex Smith with one suitable receiver in Michael Crabtree. Ironically, these are the same people who think Jimmy Raye is nutz.
by bignerd on Nov 27, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The hurry-up and spread have been completely ineffective when we're behind
We definitely should continue to bang our heads against the same wall with the same results. That makes much more sense than trying to open up with what has been working for us. Not to mention the run has actually had some success in the formation…
And Jimmy Raye has an approval rating of 2% or something like that. I gues we are all “nutz” and you are the God that sees all for what it truly is.
by Drew K on Nov 27, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The spread offense has been ineffective?
Huh?
We haven’t won our games with it but we’ve certainly managed to put up a bunch of points using it.
I think the bigger problem isn’t the spread vs non spread but the fact that Raye doesn’t try to hit any homeruns in the 1st and 2nd quarters. He goes after singles, withe the occasional double, but before you can load the bases we’ve got 3 outs (mixing my sports metaphors here).
Oh, and Frank is actually more effective running out of the shotgun than from under center. Granted it’s a pretty small sample size (less than 20 runs if I remember right), but it can be done.
by smileyman on Nov 27, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was beng sarcastic
toward bignerd… and I am totally with you on that
by Drew K on Nov 27, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
More effective?
Against the Bears? One game we use it and no one says anything about the one yard gain or the losses, just like running form under center.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
like i said in the post
(SSS applies) but he was successful on 50% of his runs from the shotgun, including a 20+ yarder.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 28, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So maybe we shouldn't be acting like this will be the answer on O
With their not being enough evidence as in it will be beneficial in the long haul.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No one’s saying it’s “the answer” we’re saying we should try it more until teams show that they can actually stop it consistently. Or, I mean, I guess we can just run the same thing that hasn’t worked all season, because well, the devil you know…
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Nov 28, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You need the extra evidence
to whether it is or is not the answer. For the long haul. Lots of teams have had success with it. Most of which have had RB’s who catch the ball very well out of the formations. Gore has a rare talent, why not use it more often and in different ways?
by Drew K on Nov 28, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't think we have the QB or the continuity for it.
We don’t have enough time together in this offense and furthermore our Offensive players are not in sync. Our D has been together longer and they break down more than enough. Trying it is opening the door to TO’s and what do you do when you get the TO’s early? Go back to the same stuff. I understand it will be good to mix in. I think we should be trying to get the WR’s out there but keep the Qb under center. Trust me I understand the frustration but I think Jimmy nailed it here.
http://blog.49ers.com/2009/11/27/raye-addresses-smith-and-spread-offense/
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It sounds like desperation to me
From what I gathered in his comments. It sounds like a fly by the seat of your pants philosophy if I’ve ever heard one.
by Drew K on Nov 28, 2009 4:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So does yours
SO we stop what we are doing and implement a new offense for everyone, to compliment Smith? Obviously we don’t have a lot of spread in the offense or we would have seen something early in the season or early in Smith starting. Desperation is kinda like beggin’ for the spread.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 8:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We have been 1-4 in the last 5
What is it going to hurt? Why bang your head against the same wall and hope for different results?
by Drew K on Nov 28, 2009 10:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you are going to play the record angle than the 49ers are 3-1 with the 3 yards and cloud of dust offense.
by bignerd on Nov 29, 2009 12:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Against who?
And the only reason we won the AZ game is because of that last drive where Hill ran something similiar.
by Drew K on Nov 29, 2009 1:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
even if it is not a wide variety of plays…when we have ran it, it has been successful VERY successful. If we start a game fast like that, then again, whats it going to hurt? Nothing….we’ve been losing
by Drew K on Nov 28, 2009 11:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought we passed early and often
in the Packer game and when did Smith get his 1st completion, if he can only be successful out of the spread, we need to be drafting another QB and parting ways with him.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you have to play with the players you have
And our offense has clearly (and it’s not remotely ambiguous) been more effective in the spread.
It’s building around Alex, but it’s also building around Crabtree, Morgan, Hill and Davis, since it’s putting the ball in their hands more.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 29, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's building on Smith not the rest of the O
Those players could be successful running routes with a QB under center. If the passing game was a threat then Defenses would send less pressure.
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Gore really an asset to this team the way he's performing this year?
I’m not sure. Those long runs are great. On the other hand, we’ve been in second- and third- and long a lot this year, because Gore’s shorter runs have not been effective. (I suspect, though I don’t have the tools to calculate it right now, that there’s a large gap between his mean and median runs this year.)
I love Gore’s home-run ability, but right now he’s the equiavlent of a slugger who hits 40 out of the park but strikes out 180 times. I actually think a RB is more valuable is he’s consistently above average, rather than feast-or-famine.
Now, this may be more the line’s fault than Gore’s, but I think it means that the spread isn’t playing away from our stengths.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 27, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gore isn't a shifty back
He’s hard to bring down in the secondary and he can knock defenders over, but he’s not going to be able to juke to the hole that suddenly opens. He’s missed some big holes a couple of times because of this.
This is why we need a change of speed back in. I’m not convinced that Coffee is that guy. I’d like to see what M-Rob can do there as well.
Running back by committee sucks for fantasy teams and individual stats for a player but it works which is why so many teams do it.
by smileyman on Nov 27, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
we aren't on the field long enough
to have a RB committee
by goatfather on Nov 27, 2009 6:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting point
I realized recently that over the past 5 years most elite running teams have heavily used RB duos or even committees (the Giants had Earth, Wind and Fire.) Even the premier running backs have a complementary RB (AP has Chester Taylor, Chris Johnson has White, back when LT was the best in the game he had Turner.) The niners haven’t yet found the Robin to Gore’s Batman. Coffee may become that, but he currently is not
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Nov 27, 2009 9:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mean/Median
Probably, I think:
Mean = over 6 yards per carry.
Median = under 3 yards per carry (and maybe less).
by CorneliusJ on Nov 27, 2009 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Packers line is aweful
but they pass pretty well.
by goatfather on Nov 27, 2009 6:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Their QB is much better, wish we had a chance to draft him!
They have at least two maybe three WR to our one.
Ok redo, bad offensive line, average QB and woefully inexperienced receivers.
by bignerd on Nov 27, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rogers would have suffered the same fate
Peyton Manning would have sucked on that team
by goatfather on Nov 27, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Their QB did get to sit a few years
Plus their defense has better def backs so they can apply more pressure, and not to mention they have been in the same offense for more than one season.
"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?
by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 9:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it’s time to give up this quick fix offensive formation campaign and just swallow the reality that the offense is below average.
Which perfectly sums up the defeated kind of attitude that I’m reacting against when I say:
What I am saying is that the success of our offense depends on us being able to be a passing team. And that, more than that, if we abandon the types of plays that make our passing game effective, we’re abandoning the idea that our offense can be any good at all.
So then… is it better to try to run an offense that only seems to function out of a quick-fix formation in the hopes that our offense isn’t bad, or is it better to give up and remove all doubt?
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 8:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Apologies to Mark Twain.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If youre bignerd you
give up and remove all doubt
by Drew K on Nov 27, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Defeatist, I see it more as understanding the limitation. The offense isn’t good. I think it’s better to mitigate their mistakes instead of exasperating their mistakes Bears ’06 Rex Grossman style.
by bignerd on Nov 28, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I get where you’re coming from. I obviously have different feelings about it, but I know what you mean.
Mostly, though, I just thought it was cool to be able to turn that Twain quote into a football context.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 28, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
its pretty hard to improve on a Twain quote
but you did a commendable job. Just stay away from Yogi’s work!
Shaun and Alex ~ A Commitment to Mediocrity
by riderless on Nov 29, 2009 9:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its not the formation. Its......
OL,OL,OL,OL,OL,OL,OL,OL etc…..
by hudd07 on Nov 27, 2009 6:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
the statistics do not back that up
Look at the sack numbers out of the Spread.
The line does suck, but when you force the defense to play smaller guys then the line doesn’t suck as much.
by goatfather on Nov 27, 2009 6:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
true, but that is just compensating for weak oline
by becoming a 1-dimensional, gimicky team. The oline is still bad; the sacks are avoided by simplifying the blocking schemes and avoiding normal things that QB’s could do safely if they had an Oline.
by zacksf on Nov 28, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We are giving up so much on 2nd down plays…..its sick. Alex has no adjustment capabilities. Any time you see a lb or de spying the blitz, you can almost bet the sack is coming. hes not into moving the chains either. we need a qb that can make the adjustments…not just run the plays…..improvise daaaaaamitt.
by zonedogs on Nov 28, 2009 9:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
i don't think that is on him.
the oline is not good at picking up blitzes.
by zacksf on Nov 28, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All this desperate planning
for an offense that will might work right now is rooted in trying to compensate for an oline that is unable to provide the time for normal things like:
1) play action with a 5 step drop
2) 7 step drops
etc…
Is that really the highest priority?
Our Coach is in his 1st full year.
Our QB has started about 5 games this year.
Our best receiver is 22 years old.
Our tight end is 25.
The Oline is injured and incapable of providing normal protection…
Everybody wants to win.
Rebuilding is a process and our process has been effected by many things including Crabtree, Smith, the loss of Staley, Pashos, etc.
Let’s keep some perspective, and if anyone wants to bet that the 49ers will not be in the play-offs 2010/11, you can (try to) win some of my money.
by zacksf on Nov 28, 2009 5:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Drew K, and others
I am not saying you are necessarily wrong.
What you suggest might be the best way for the team to win the next game.
I am just genuinely not sure what the trade-offs are, (for example, in terms of team and player development.)
(and I am feeling very optimistic about the near-term future, i.e., after the next draft, and I guess I am a little patient.)
by zacksf on Nov 28, 2009 5:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If you go down that road and start doing it
every week.
Would it work?
Is that who we want t be?
I doubt it?
by zacksf on Nov 28, 2009 5:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
continuing to take a reasonable numbers of snaps under center
might be good for Alex’s development.
(If it doesn’t kill him.)
by zacksf on Nov 28, 2009 5:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Against the Jags
lets run 100% from the gun 50% 3WR 25%4 WR 25% 2 WR 1 TE 1 HB
by goatfather on Nov 28, 2009 7:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the spread attack
I have wondered for quite some time why we didn’t use this offensive scheme. I believe it goes back to Jimmy Raye and his conservative nature. In order to be successful, we need to put Alex Smith and the rest of the offense in a position to succeed. Teams have really struggled trying to stop our offense in this mode.
USE THE SPREAD OFFENSE !!!!!!
by 49erfan303 on Nov 29, 2009 5:44 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/9836/steve-young-49ers-could-be-stuck
I agree with the HOF QB, our HOF Head Coach, and my self!!
"Optimist Prime"
Yes 10fortech I am still pissed the crabtree pick wasn't traded!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 8:56 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
And you can whup Chuck Norris!
Seriously, you need to work on your ‘linking’ skills. That was a very good article that nobody read.
The link above:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/9836/steve-young-49ers-could-be-stuck
Yes rlott#42, Crabtree...can block
by 10forTech on Nov 29, 2009 9:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Steve Young's comment:
“If he is really only able to thrive in the spread, then that might not be the dilemma of the week, but it is the dilemma of the year and onto next year as to exactly how they are going to do that,” Young said. “Now, I can’t believe that if you can play competent quarterback in the spread that you can’t transition to understand how to play quarterback in the I (formation). I did it and all of the above and it just doesn’t seem like that is all that hard to do.”
Does he realize that we have to have a decent offensive line first in order for Smith to be successful out of all the formations? Clearly when Smith has time, he does well as he did today. This falls on the O-line. For some reason they block way worse out of the I (formation) than when in shotgun…or have 10 guys in the box. Smith can be effective when and if he has the time to be. The reason Young was successful in that formation is because of a far superior line to this one.
by Drew K on Nov 29, 2009 9:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Steve Young is pretty smart
I think he knows more about pro football than 50 of us put together.
An NFL QB has to be able to take snaps from under center. That’s just a fact.
It really doesn’t matter whether his O line is decent or not. He’s getting paid millions to learn how to be successful out of all formations. If he can’t cut it, he should be replaced. The same holds true for the O line.
I’m not asking him to be superman. I’m asking him to do the same things other successful quarterbacks are doing around the league under similar circumstances.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Nov 29, 2009 10:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again we agree!
"Optimist Prime"
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Yes 10fortech, Crabtree can block, should the two drops question other things? I know none of those passes came down like a punt!!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 10:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It happens every so often
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Nov 29, 2009 10:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It really doesn’t matter whether his O line is decent or not.
Whoa! …. that’s really all I have to say to that. Steve Young didn’t have a line when with Tampa, how did he do then? Did he figure it out then? Or was he sacked 68 times over the course of 19 games and not given a chance to?
http://www.nfl.com/players/steveyoung/careerstats?id=YOU299670
He was horrible his first 4 years in the league (2 of which with Tampa)… I dont care if you put Joe Montana, Dan Marino, or John Elway behind this the line we have had all season…it would not make one bit of difference. When defenses are virtually taking snaps for us and are in the backfield before the QB’s first step on his dropback then how could you possibly use that as an argument?
I’m not asking him to be superman. I’m asking him to do the same things other successful quarterbacks are doing around the league under similar circumstances.
Name another QB in NFL history that has been successful with a horrible O-line. All successful QB’s tend to have at the very least an average offensive line. That is a fact.
by Drew K on Nov 30, 2009 12:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Smith has shown he can throw from under center anyhow
Again….when he has time. Whether he is in shotgun or under center does not matter. Whether or not he has had time to throw does matter.
by Drew K on Nov 30, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You might be being a little optimistic ...
… but I do think comfort is a huge factor with Smith. I suspect that as he gains experience under center, he will continue to improve there.
But we’ll have to wait and see.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 30, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You might be being a little smipleminded
with you subtle little slaps here an there.
Your comments are typically and most often annoying. You argue for the sake of arguing in most cases.
Even here, in a topic you seem to hold the same opinion of, you have to throw in a stupid little remark to preface.
by Drew K on Nov 30, 2009 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really want to make it personal, Drew?
You evidently didn’t understand the meaning of the word “if” when you got all pissy claiming I calling you a racist in the “Redskins” thread.
That was a basic reading comprehension issue, and you failed miserably, so you shouldn’t be calling anyone simpleminded.
Do you REALLY want to go there?
by Ronaldinho on Nov 30, 2009 7:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And what I said about you is truth
I have seen you do it with others as well
PERSONALLY… I dont care to respond to your non-sense anymore
by Drew K on Nov 30, 2009 7:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, the old "some of my best friends are black" argument. You have have prejudiced ideas against a group and still like individuals of that group. I don’t care how many black friends you have, if you turn around and call someone a "f****ing n****r" you’re using offensive language.
You also used the word “You” in that example…you know damnwell you were directing that at me! So dont sit there and try and play it down. You were very much wrong in your comment and if you want to sit there and deny it, then go ahead and be a liar…i dont care.
by Drew K on Nov 30, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Then don't.
But I would learn what the word “if” means, should you decide you want to participate in english-language forms of communication.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 30, 2009 7:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am well-versed in the english language
You should learn how to NOT be such a blatent liar
by Drew K on Nov 30, 2009 7:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BOTH OF YOU NEED TO STOP
There’s a reason I closed that FanPost, and I’ll delete your comments here if this continues.
by Fooch on Nov 30, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Whoa, it matters very much. Good call Drew K.
by zacksf on Nov 30, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa?
I don’t think you or Drew K understood what I said.
Let me rephrase:
It really doesn’t matter whether his O line is decent or not. As a matter of fact, it doesn’t even matter if his coach is decent, or even if his team is decent, an NFL QB has to be able to take snaps from under center if he wants to play in this league.
Did you read the article?
Here’s the link again:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/9836/steve-young-49ers-could-be-stuck
If Smith cannot play well across personnel groups and formations, the 49ers cannot win with him over the long term. Young drove home that point.
I believe Steve Young agrees with me.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 8:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
this guy
named Tom Brady would like to have a word with you.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
10forTech:
Mr. Brady, wouldn’t you agree that Alex Smith needs to be proficient at taking a snap from under center if he wants to be the complete NFL Quarterback? You know, 5-7 step drop back and pass, play action, hand off, QB sneak, etc.
TB:
Absolutely. I completely agree with you and the legendary Steve Young.
10forTech:
Thanks. I knew you’d say that. Oh, and by the way, give my regards to your wife, Jazelle.
TB:
Score!
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
really?
You think that’s what the guy who throws 75% of his passes from the shotgun would say? Cuz I think he’d say something more along the lines of: “Well, that may have been true when Steve was playing, but the game is constantly evolving, and I think that we’ve shown that offenses can be successful in today’s NFL with extensive use of the shotgun.”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Putting words into Brady's mouth
10forTech:
Tom, would you care to clarify that last sentence for me? Did you say ‘extensive’ or ‘exclusive’? Because ‘extensive’ suggests offenses are doing something else at least part of the time. And that means offenses need to be successful at something else besides the shotgun at least part of the time. Don’t you agree?
Your not advocating NFL offenses running the shot gun exclusively, are you? Because that doesn’t seem wise to me or Steve Young.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Where did I say that?
Or even imply it? Hell, even Florida doesn’t run the shotgun EXCLUSIVELY.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you bring up a gimmick offense?
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jazelle? Gazelle
I think it’s Giselle
"Pat is still just scratching the surface." - Coach Singletary on LB Patrick Willis
by 49erLou on Dec 1, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I know what she looks like, lol
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why Tom Brady has had success under center.
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh.
I think there have been inferior QBs (to Manning) that have run a shotgun offense fairly well. The Bills for a while almost exclusively ran shotgun-3WR sets. As did the Falcons before the arrival of Vick. The offenses weren’t always the reasons for the franchises’ losing seasons.
by sfgfan on Dec 1, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're not really going to use the Bills and Falcons as examples we should copy, are you?
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure you're aware
but the Bills were pretty good for a while there. Something about 4 super bowl appearances in 4 years or something?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In 1990, the Bills switched to a hurry-up offense, (frequently with Kelly in the shotgun formation, the “K-gun”, named for tight-end Keith McKeller) and it started one of the most successful runs in NFL history.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Key word: frequently
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and no one's suggested otherwise.
It’s not like Smith trips over his own feet dropping back from under center. However I would not be disappointed if we took the Pats approach and threw 75% of our passes from the gun.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All I'm saying
Tom Brady is successful from under center. Something I’m sure he works on frequently because 25% of the time he needs to be.
Is Alex Smith? Maybe that’s something he needs to work on.
That’s all I think Steve Young was trying to point out.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Brady has been operating out of that Sohotgun for years
Smith has for weeks
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, exacttly
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, thanks...
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not suggesting copying.
I’m just saying an offense run from the shotgun isn’t the worst thing in the world if it continues to work. While it would be completely awesome to have a QB that can also take snaps from under center, I don’t think it’s all that necessary, as Young makes it out to be.
If it gives the 49ers their best chance at winning, and they can still be deceptive at it, I don’t see where the downside is. The 49ers have been running fairly well out of the shotgun, even if some trickery has to be involved (i.e. the Walker reverse). It’s not like the Falcons decided they wanted to force Chris Chandler to play in the shotgun. He was better in it, so they used him there. Similarly, it’s not like the Bills wanted to force Kelly into the shotgun. He was better there. Even Thurman Thomas was successful out of the shotgun as a RB, taking direct snaps and such.
Success is possible if that is the strength of your QB. To write off the QB before watching him fail continually at it is kind of elitist/narrow-minded.
by sfgfan on Dec 1, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me post it again
If Smith cannot play well across personnel groups and formations, the 49ers cannot win with him over the long term.
No one is writing off the QB:
“There is no reason why we can’t get Alex to get under center,” Young said. “It is a matter of time, if we can withstand the growing pains of doing that. But there is no reason he cannot get somebody under center in the offseason and really work it out.”from the link above
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t accept the premise. Or rather, I think he can play well across personnel groups and formations, and that the vast majority of those formations involve him being in the shotgun.
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This.
My comment relates primarily to the audio that that article was based off of. Young’s tone makes it sound like he doesn’t think a QB will sustain success if he plays predominantly from the shotgun. He goes as far as calling Peyton Manning an “outlier” in an audio interview and that a QB must learn to play from behind center. Basically, he thinks the 49ers must force to learn how to play under center, and I disagree.
I think that IF Smith shows that he can be successful from the shotgun over the course of the rest of the season, I don’t think the 49ers HAVE to get him “under center in the offseason and really work it out.” As they say: don’t fix what ain’t broken, and if Smith is successful, it ain’t broken.
by sfgfan on Dec 1, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But you're leaving out one of the 49ers best weapons
Again from the link above:
“They are stuck with an All-Pro running back (Frank Gore) that needs a certain formation and then up-and-coming stars that need another formation,” Young said. “And they have no way to meld the two because they really aren’t compatible.”I suppose the 49ers could use Frank Gore as a blocker…
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no offense to mr. young
but that’s really stupid. I discussed this in the Gore thread, but there’s absolutely no evidence that suggests that Gore can’t be effective running out of the shotgun.
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and further
if it IS the case that Gore can’t be effective out of the shotgun, and it’s a choice between Gore being effective, or Smith and Crabtree and Morgan and Hill and Vernon and Walker being effective, well, that’s really not a choice at all.
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lest we go back over the importance of your passing offense as it relates to your ability to win games.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 1, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gore is more than just a runner.
And he has had success running from the shotgun. As I mentioned above, Thurman Thomas made it work from the gun. I don’t see why the 49ers can’t run Gore on direct snaps, or use him more as a receiving back. Gore is probably one of the best receiving backs in the league.
by sfgfan on Dec 1, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gore has been an effective receiver throughout his career ...
… but more to the point, yes, the team needs to maximize the value it gets from its weapons.
And the question is simply this: is what they give up from Gore by running a majority of plays form the shotgun made up for by the increased productivity they get from Smith and the receivers.
I think the answer is yes, although that’s in part because I feel that, this season, Gore has not been a particularly effective back. Everybody loves the long runs, but Gore’s a home-run-or-strikeout kind of guy this year, and I think all the second-and-longs he’s putting us in this year are hurting us more than the long TD runs are helping us.
But if the offensive line improved enough to get Gore past the line of scrimmage more consistently, I might feel differently. In those circumstances, however, we might also expect to see Smith’s under-center play improve, as well.
by Ronaldinho on Dec 1, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and in addition
I still haven’t had anyone give me an example of a run that Gore can run with Alex under center that he can’t do from the shotgun. Or explanations of why he’d be less effective running those plays from the shotgun, with actual stats to back them up.
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t had anyone give me example of why Alex Smith cannot pass based off out of I-Formation with Crabtree the single WR in the slot. VD, Gore and Crabtree would still be involved in the passing plays, OMG . . . I don’t get it.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hi mr. strawman.
We tried that on some plays with little success. In any case, it doesn’t put our best players on the field. The line has’t been able to block as effectively with Smith under center.
We’ve seen that Smith is more effective out of the shotgun without question. We’ve also seen that Gore can be effective running out of the shotgun in limited attempts. We don’t have enough data to know whether he can be effective long term or not, but it’s worth a shot.
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't see your stats
I just cannot except your answer because until there is some statistical proof. If it was so trivial you’d have stats to back this claim up.
From what I see our best players are still on the field based off a power run game, I-Formation: VD, Crabs, Gore, Walker and Smith.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OMG
A) I didn’t say it was trivial to show that, you did. and
B) you’re right, it might be successful. It’s unlikely to be successful for a lot of deep passes because TEs and RBs tend to run less deep patterns than WRs. However, I suppose that in theory one could compose an offense that allows the TEs and RBs to function essentially as extra WRs in the patterns they run. No one’s tried it yet that I’ve seen, and in theory at least it could be successful. However, I’m not going to spend any effort to prove/disprove that because no one is suggesting we do that.
To recap – to date, I’ve made no positive claims about the offense (except that Smith is better from the shotgun. If you don’t believe that, I direct you to Sando’s blog today mentioning Smith’s 90+ rating from the shotgun). You have. The burden of proof rests on the person making the positive claim. If you claim that Gore CAN’T be successful running from the ‘gun, you have to provide some evidence to that effect. If you’re only claiming that he MAY NOT be successful from the gun, well, you’re right. He may not, but we don’t have enough evidence yet to know yet, so I’m not sure what the argument is.
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
People have posted Smiths’ stats in the shotgun vs. under center, as well as on drives that are mostly shotgun vs on drives that are mostly under center, multiple times in this thread and others. Maiocco had some of ’em on his blog.
Smith completes a higher perecentage of his passes and throws fewer interceptions from the shotgun. This is not disputable.
by Ronaldinho on Dec 1, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The argument is whether the team is stuck as long as Alex Smith cannot pass outside the shotgun. Steve Young suggest they are.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't have time to look up the stats right now ...
But by and large in a shotgun spread you don’t have a fullback, so blocking is harder.
Even when you do have a fullback, the RB is taking the ball farther from the line of scrimage. This means that the defenders have more time to converge on the ballcarrier before he gets to the line of scrimmage. It’s also easier for LBs to see what’s going on and react appropriately.
Misdirection run plays can work well from the shotgun, because there are usually fewer defenders in the box, and more space between them. In those circumstances, you’re actually relying on the slower development of the play so tacklers can take themselves out of position. But power running is usually about hitting fast and hard, and in the shotgun you can’t do that.
by Ronaldinho on Dec 1, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a different league now
than it was in Steve’s day. Teams run their offense much more from the shotgun than they did when he was playing.
by smileyman on Dec 1, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What Steve Young was trying to say
It’s absurd to think franchise QB’s don’t have to be good under center. Even Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are under center at least part of the time. This is something Alex Smith is going to have to work on if he wants to be successful in the NFL.
Can the 49ers run a spread type offense like the Patriots or Colts? Of course, but Alex Smith will still have to be proficient under center.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Peyton Manning spends most of his time under center. Most Colts pass plays are based off play action. Houston has essentially copied their offense. Shanahan ran the same offense in Denver for a decade. Drew Brees even lines up under center . . . Drew Brees makes passes under any formation.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Peyton Manning spends most of his time under center
Really? Of his 35 pass attempts last week, 7 were made from under center.
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe this is somewhat true for 2009. Since the 49ers game the Colts have given up on the run game. They still run a lot of play action when they can get away with it.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no they haven't
22 rushing attempts and 116 yards last week.
24 rushing attempts for 74 yards the week before
18 attempts for 91 yards the week before that.
That’s hardly “giving up on the run game”
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Than why do the Colts keep complaining about it?
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what are you talking about?
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"good"?
I disagree. (huge surprise, right?). I’d say you just have to be “good enough” ie. the threat of the pass is still there. Smith is already “good enough”. He’s just much, much better from the gun.
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not
The threat of the pass isn’t there. He’s just much, much worse under center.
QB Rating
Shotgun 95.1
Under center 61.2
once again, link is above
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it's there enough
that the D can’t 100% key on the run when Smith is under center. That’s as good as it has to be.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
According to you
Steve Young (and I) would disagree with you.
But then again, you know more than Steve Young don’t you?
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s too much to ask QB’s to throw out of running formations these days.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hi again Mr. Strawman.
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Steve Young is not a Strawman, he’s just pointing out it’s the QB job to make throws out of all formations.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously dude, take a logic class, or debate or SOMETHING.
THIS:
It’s too much to ask QB’s to throw out of running formations these days.
is a classic strawman.
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the point you are arguing. Alex Smith shouldn’t be asked to throw from under center because he is bad at it. Steve Young’s answer, that’s a bad idea.
Logic class, that is funny.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
adsipocvxkj;l;tsiupodfhcxijkcndglfsa
omg. my head just exploded
THE REASON THAT ARGUMENT IS A STRAWMAN IS BECAUSE NO ONE IS ARGUING IT.
All I am saying is that Smith is so much more effective out of the shotgun that he should only occasionally throw from under center to prevent the D from completely keying on the run. THATS ALL.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I guess we shouldn’t ask him to do anything that might be hard. Heaven forbid we should ask him to do things other Qb’s in the league have to do.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
le sigh.
He DOES do it.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yet, it’s on Frank Gore to run out of the shotgun. Go figure.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OMG it must be so hard to run out of the shotgun. That’s probably why no offense ever does it. Especially not the Pats. Or any offense in college. Ever. It’s probably completely traumatic for RBs, which is why only half of Gore’s runs out of the shotgun vs. CHI were successful. Or why he averaged 3 YPC out of the gun last week (4 carries, 1 successful) vs. under 2 YPC from under center (12 carries, 21 yards).
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
again
you’ve STILL provided NO evidence why Gore can’t be successful running out of the shotgun. Other than “well he’s not Thurman Thomas or Marshal Faulk”. Which is no evidence.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK,OK
We can run a mostly spread offense with Smith and Gore.
Mostly. A lot. Primarily. Much of the time. Mainly. For the most part. Almost always. Predominantly. In many instances. Chiefly. Usually.
The rest of the time…
According to Steve Young, Alex Smith is going to have to work on his under center skills if he wants to be a complete franchise QB because he’s going to have to be under center sometimes and a 61.2 QB rating under center isn’t good enough.
Now, if you can’t understand that, I give up.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
WHY?!
It was certainly good enough this week. It was also good enough in the 2nd half of the HOU game. It wouldn’t be good enough if we passed from under center half the time, like we do now.
If you can’t understand that he only has to be “just good enough” aka barely passable from under center if we run 2/3 to 3/4 of our plays from the shotgun, then I don’t know what to tell you.
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but then again
you’re the guy who thinks the OL has no impact on Smith’s success from under center so…
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Steve Young
was one of the best quarterbacks of all time. However, he is not a football God. When he makes a claim, it needs to be supported by evidence, just the same as when you or I or anyone else does.
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a viable witness from first hand experience.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
his first hand experience
is terribly out of date. All he has are anecdotes. While his anecdotes are slightly more valuable than yours or mine, they are not enough to constitute evidence in and of themselves.
If he were making the argument that HE couldn’t be a good QB passing almost entirely from the shotgun, that would be something else entirely.
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The league has changed
Interesting stat line shown on MNF.
Teams now throw from the shotgun 75% of the time. Back when Steve Young played it was around 25% of the time.
by smileyman on Dec 1, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not quite
teams throw about 50% now. Brady throws 75%. Manning’s up there too.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but yeah
in Steve’s day, the average was much, much lower.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate this kind of reply. It’s a GeoMak special.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 1, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I had to use the “up” button to see which you were talking about, it’s about 2 screens away. But yeah, you’re right.
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Offenses from the Shotgun
Are most helpful against the 3-4 D and how many 3-4 defenses are in the NFC?
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by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 7:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He (Smith) has played well under center or from shotgun
AGAIN, when he has had time…. He knows how to play from under center. Because his O-line has not played well from certain formations, this has prevented Smith from playing well…NOT Smith.
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Alex Smith with time...under shotgun AND under center
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81495ac8/WK-12-Alex-Smith-highlights
(Mixed shotgun and under center with time)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d814636bf/Crabtree-s-1st-career-TD
(Shotgun with time)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81426c1c/WK-10-Alex-Smith-highlights
(More mixed…but clearly you can see when has time he does well)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8140f219/Alex-Smith-Highlight-WK-09-vs-Titans-2009
(Again I [formation] under center with time)
Furthering my point, as you can see, Alex does just fine in whatever formation as long as there is time. HE DOES NOT NEED TO LEARN ANYTHING….he already knows. Every QB can always get better…and through time and experience usually will. People want him to be Tom Brady and Drew Brees without an offensive line. With the line he has, he has done well. Give credit where credit is due.
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Every QB can always get better…
That’s what Steve Young thinks…I agree with him.
Thanks.
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesnt matter
the point is that Smith knows how to play out of those formations when he has time…the KEY ingredient to any successful QB…and more impotantly offense
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Notice in this video
against the Packers… that another team with a ver good QB WITHOUT and Oline…opperates from the same formation quite often. I wonder why that is? I am sure Aaron Rodgers can play under center also when he has time.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/san-francisco-49ers/09000d5d8146682c/NFL-Scoreboard-49ers-vs-Packers-highlights
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's face it...
Teams in the NFL are just using the shotgun more often these days. Lots of QB’s are opperating it now: Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Vince Young, Donovan McNabb, etc are all using it in their offenses (some more than others) but whatever works and wins games is what should be used. Whether it’s under center 30% and Shotgun 70% does not matter…bottom line, score points, play good defense, and win games
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
THIS.
This. A million times this. Do what scores points, not what the “conventional wisdom” says you need to do.
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That was the theory behind the old Run n’ Shoot. In the end most teams found out they needed to control the clock and the ball to sustain winning, which is why the offense disappeared for a decade and came back under the new label spread offense.
This is what that out dated relic Steve Young was referring too.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the old run n shoot
went to 4 consecutive super bowls. The new spread went 18-1 just 2 years ago. You still need to be able to run the ball, but then we’re just back to the square where you haven’t provided any evidence suggesting that Gore won’t be effective out of the shotgun.
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You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
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by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
and how many all-purpose yards was Thurman Thomas racking up each year between receiving and running it? Gore can catch and run very well. Other than a few lucky breaks here and there, he most often otherwise gets like 1 yard or so it seems like
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
did he actually say that in the article or are you playing “publicist” for Young? He’s not eluding to run-and-shoot or anything else, he simply says,
"If he is really only able to thrive in the spread, then that might not be the dilemma of the week, but it is the dilemma of the year and onto next year as to exactly how they are going to do that," Young said. "Now, I can’t believe that if you can play competent quarterback in the spread that you can’t transition to understand how to play quarterback in the I (formation). I did it and all of the above and it just doesn’t seem like that is all that hard to do."
Where did he say outdated relic or run-and-shoot? The other two comments from him do not elude to that either. Those are verrrrrrry thin lines you are trying to read between.
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He seems to be alluding a very real problem in this statement
“If he is really only able to thrive in the spread, then that might not be the dilemma of the week, but it is the dilemma of the year and onto next year as to exactly how they are going to do that.”
He than explains:
"They are stuck with an All-Pro running back (Frank Gore) that needs a certain formation and then up-and-coming stars that need another formation," Young said. "And they have no way to meld the two because they really aren’t compatible."
Anyone? 49ers have a problem because they cannot run out of the spread formation. His quotes are very specific.
Run ’n Shoot = Spread Offense. Drew, you sent me the Wiki page, remember?
The Run ‘n Shoot was buried for the very reason I stated above. Teams couldn’t run the ball, thus weren’t able to maintain the leads they built.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you're saying
Thurman Thomas couldn’t run the ball out of the Shotgun and Spread?
Again, I am not sure what you are trying to prove by blocking a quote that I already put up. He did not say anything about what you are trying to say.
Regardless, it is possible to run out of the spread. Just because something was burried for a period of time, does not mean it wont work. The wildcat was burried for 50+ years in the NFL but the second the Dolphins brought it back, it caught fire. Things don’t die forever and trends do tend to repeat themselves
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We're already starting to see it return
not just with this team but with several throughout the NFL
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But you are ignoring why the Run ’n Shoot (Spread offense) was abandoned a decade ago.
It wasn’t a sustainable offense over the course of an NFL season. The main problem stemmed from the offenses inability to slow the game down with a lead. Teams need to run the football when having a lead, the offense wasn’t able to provide that capability.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn’t a sustainable offense over the course of an NFL season.
IT WENT TO FOUR SUPER BOWLS IN A ROW
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It also won zero of them, blown out in 3. The Rams are the only team in NFL history to pull it off. One team, just one.
More to my point about it’s failure to maintain leads: it failed the Oilers who suffered the greatest loss in playoff history. It failed the Oilers again in a playoff game comeback against Joe Montana and Chiefs. Oh, and it’s failed the Patriots twice trying to maintain huge leads against the Colts.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So making to the SuperBowl 4 times in a row
with the spread isn’t a factor because the 4? Whoa! Big Whoa! Do you realize what you are saying there? Just because it happened (loosing the SB) does not mean the same exact results would happen again.
And to the bottom portion of that, you do realize that you used the word playoffs in there; the Oilers example is the owrst one because their defense lost them that game. In fact in all of those scenarios of yours, the DEFENSE was resposible for those losses. Go look at the amount of points that were put up
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually people blame the Run n’ Shoot offense for the Oilers failure because it continually marches the defense back on the field in a hurry. It takes no time off the clock, it doesn’t control the ball and finish out games.
It also wears out a defense over the course of the season because the offense is unable to run out the clock. That’s why it’s not sustainable over the course of an NFL season.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK here’s another thing that bothers me:
It takes no time off the clock
The play clock has 40 seconds on it whether it’s a run or an incomplete pass, so why would the defense be off the field any longer with a running offense vs. a passing one? (assuming both offenses averaged the same # of plays per drive)
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You actually need an explanation on that question?
An incomplete pass stops the clock. An failed run keeps it moving.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but
40 seconds of real time are taken up either way.
If you go 3 and out with 3 incomplete passes, using the whole play clock each time, you take about 2 minutes and 15 seconds of real time, but only 15 seconds of game time.
If you go 3 and out with 3 runs, you take 2 minutes and 15 seconds of game and real time.
No matter what, your D is off the field for 2 minutes 15 seconds (plus punt and change of posession time)
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It still provides the opponent more plays in a game to complete the comeback.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but that's not what you said
and in any case, that’s not true if the passing offense is more efficient.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 6:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It also
went to FOUR SUPER BOWLS IN A ROW. Do you know how many teams have done that? One.
Yeah, they lost all 4, but that also came during an unprecedented 12 year run of NFC dominance.
You said that the spread can’t be sustained over a season. That is easily demonstrably false.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also came under an unprecedented 12 year run of AFC suckiness where their AFC counter parts where running the Run n’ Shoot offense.
Lets see: Dolphins, Oilers and Bengals.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
or alternatively
it came when the AFC teams running prolific spread offenses had bad defenses.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Go back and do some research on your history
The teams that ran it, had success against the specific NFC teams that were on the schedule as well.
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s not forget the Broncos either. Elway loved throwing out of shotgun too.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
So he lost a Superbowl his 2nd year as a Pro but then later in his career went back-to-back and won 2.
What was your point? I’m lost now…it seems like you are giving him credit…which a hall of famer should get. Btw, Terrell Davis wasn’t a bad RB out of those formations as well ;)
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They ran a play action offense under Shannhan. They also emphasized running the ball, not a Run n’ Shoot offense.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think where you seem to be getting foggy on the concept of the offense
is you are thinking that they are running it 100% of the time during the course of a game.
That in and of itself is not true. Kelly, Moon, Elway, Esiason, and others all took snaps under center as well as their versions of the spread. The majority was ran out of these formations, yes, that is true but whether it was 60%, 70%, or even 80% all varied on team as well as opponent
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I’m reading an advocacy for a full time spread offense because Alex isn’t very good throwing under center.
Teams have to run a passing offense and running offense, which is often dictated by the formation.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alex is fine throwing from under center
when he has a bit of time to. I posted some vid feeds in the thread showcasing that
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Full-time does not constitute
100% in terms of football anyhow. No team in history has ever done that. I am not sure why your mind would even go 100%
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ikr
It’s like he’s arguing that the run ‘n shoot wasn’t a full time spread attack.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing is really ever full-time
things can be predominant in terms of an offense….but there were pro formations (where there was 2 backs HB and FB side-by-side) and other things that those teams mentioned ran at times too.
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One
of those SBs was lost on a missed FG.
by CorneliusJ on Dec 1, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I take it back, Steve Young did have experience of the spread; loosing 34-31 to the Bills September 13th 1992
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199209130sfo.htm
Thurman Thomas had 85 yards running and 94 yards rec a TD in each category (2) TD’s total.
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he remembers that game and resents the spread for it
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, you're right
http://www.ninersnation.com/2009/12/1/1181384/steve-young-you-dont-know-jack
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
49ers have a problem because they cannot run out of the spread formation.
[citation needed]
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“They are stuck with an All-Pro running back (Frank Gore) that needs a certain formation and then up-and-coming stars that need another formation,” Young said. “And they have no way to meld the two because they really aren’t compatible.”
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Young's opinion
is not evidence.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why does this conversation
seem so very very familiar?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Singletary
On whether the team can run off of shotgun formation just as effectively as taking snaps from under center:
“Running out of the shotgun [formation] and running from under center is a lot different because particularly having someone like Frank Gore. When you have a running back like Frank Gore, he is a hit-the-hole-downhill guy. He’s not a fidget to the right and then give him the ball. When you’re in the shotgun, you’ve got to figure out some kind of way, you’ve kind of have to work together on how you step this way and he steps that way. It’s not like you’re under center, you’re going back, he’s going forward -he’s hitting that hole and you’ve this other guy running around here wrapping around the edge. No, it’s not like that. It’s different, you guys see what I’m saying? So it’s different for the running back. For the quarterback it’s great, but it’s different for the running back when you’ve got that kind of running back.”
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
k
so Sing thinks it’ll be harder for Gore to have success out of the shotgun. I don’t necessarily disagree. I still don’t see anything that says it’s impossible. And from what he’s been showing so far this season suggests quite the opposite.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and just so I know
You DO realize that this:
they cannot run out of the spread formation.
and this:
No, it’s not like that. It’s different, you guys see what I’m saying? So it’s different for the running back. For the quarterback it’s great, but it’s different for the running back when you’ve got that kind of running back.
aren’t even close to saying the same thing, right?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you are arguing the degree in Singletary’s statement. Do think he would have said, “Frank cannot do it?” or is feasible he tried to tip toe around this statement while making his point?
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well
I think my vote on the approval rating would have gone the other way if he’d said “Frank cannot do it” because it flies in the face of the evidence.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What evidence?
8 good carries a game? There aren’t enough carries out of the formation to constitute a viable run game. The resources aren’t there.
It’s a very simple concept. It’s a simple as understanding why a QB cannot throw for 300 yards when the offense continually runs 1 WR sets. There aren’t enough passing options and patterns to pass for 300 yards.
Flip that back to the Run n’ Shoot (spread formation) and there aren’t the resource dedicated to the running back to sustain success. There is a limited number of run plays that can be run out of the formation. Which is why only the best RBs in NFL history have pulled it off: Barry Sanders, Thurman Thomas and Marshall Faulk. Do you see how all this fits?
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
8 good carries a game?
It’s the only evidence we have.
There aren’t enough carries out of the formation to constitute a viable run game. The resources aren’t there.
[citation needed]
There is a limited number of run plays that can be run out of the formation.
Like what? what are some examples of run plays that work under center, but not in the shotgun? And it’d better be more than the number of direct snap runs that are possible.
There is a limited number of run plays that can be run out of the formation.
[citation needed]
Do you see how all this fits
No, I think you’re begging the question.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
also
would you say that Lawrence Maroney and Sammy Morris are among the NFL greats? Because they both sure had success running out of the gun in ’07.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ya, even F.O. outsiders dismisses their greatness.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what?
are you talking about Maroney?
He was 7th in DYAR and 6th in DVOA in ’07.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
1200
between the 2 of them.
1500, 9 TD, 0 FUM if you count Faulk too.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so, to reiterate
NE had one of the most efficient running games in the NFL while running the spread, and using 3 separate running backs, none of whom is likely going to the Hall.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that was off the top of my head
from this year / 2 years ago. And it totally annihilates your proposition, which was, in case you don’t remember, that NO non-HOF RB can succeed running out of the gun.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 6:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Sanders, Thurman Thomas and Marshall Faulk.
So in your opinion, Gore could never be figured in to that equation? Nice.
Well at least now we know your real issue is with Gore, not the spread.
One more good lineman, and we would have the resources. We almost do now. Gore has actually busted a few from the shotgun as well as under-center spread formations. Because he got 3 long runs ALL season long (2 against SEA and 1 against IND) we should just keep doing that and hope he will break a huge one.
We are scoring points from the formation, and if Gore doen’t get a 100 yards a game and the Niners win….I am good with that. I think most people would be. It is not far-fetched and it is very much possible to be successful if ran correctly
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gore is more of a power runner than Faulk or Sanders
Although I do think he has the shiftiness to do what Thurman Thomas did, stylistically he’s very different from Faulk and (especially) Sanders.
Sanders was probably the idea shotgun spread back. He had so much elusiveness that it didn’t matter if a defender hit him behind the line of scrimage, he would make him miss. But he also, if I recall correctly (and I may not) led the league is runs for losses more than once.
Gore is a guy you want to run straight at defenders more. Sanders was a guy you want to have dance to make ’em miss.
by Ronaldinho on Dec 1, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think Gore has the ability
to cut at all. He misses open holes because he’s already committed. He’s a power back, but I still don’t see why you can’t do that from the shotgun. You’ve got to have the O-line for proper blocking and you’ve got to redesign your plays but you can still do it.
I think pitches, sweeps, and off tackle runs could be very effective from the shotgun.
by smileyman on Dec 1, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the offense is spread so is the D
which in alot of cases creates a 4 on 5 up front and sometimes a 5 on 5…it’s a little better odds than 10 on 5 (well 6 if you include the FB). If you have good lineman, the odds of success are actually in your favor. Downhill runner or not. In fact, a down hill runner nay even be better for it than someone who dances around in the backfield looking for a hole to open
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup on all points
Sanders led the league in runs for negative yards, but he also led the league in big runs.
I miss watching him run—he was pure excitement. His kid is going to be something special too.
by smileyman on Dec 1, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You throw a dynamic TE in to the equation
and you all of the sudden are giving DC’s nightmares. Imagine lining him up in tight and then potion him wherever…I would hate to be on the other side of that
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently...
… you don’t play video games. Role Playing Game.
by sfgfan on Dec 1, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I played the paper & pen kind for a long time
not so much the video game ones anymore
by smileyman on Dec 1, 2009 5:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He was probably my favorite back to watch, too ...
It’s a shame he was never on a team good enough to really showcase him in the postseason.
by Ronaldinho on Dec 1, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sounds very Chris Johnsonesque
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
Chris Johnson has burning speed, but he doesn’t have the acrobatic moves that Barry Sanders had.
by smileyman on Dec 1, 2009 6:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking more of the “boom or bust” aspect
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He knows this how?
I didn’t realize he ran that offense when he played.
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
The run and shoot proved to have some real weaknesses, particularly when the team had a lead and had to control the ball. We saw a good example of that last weekend, when the team tried to play more conservatively and the offense stagnated badly in the second half. Against a better opponent, that’s a recipe for giving up comeback wins. (Ask an Oiler fan about that one).
But it had some advantages, too. Ideally the team would learn how to do both. I also wonder if the continued tweaks to the rules in favor of passing tip the balance slightly more in favor of the spread.
by Ronaldinho on Dec 1, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe Viliphied is trying to argue your last point, meaning it can be tweaked.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 5:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe Viliphied is trying to argue...
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m a very aggressive person when it comes to sports. I always want to go for the juggular. I wouldn’t ever bring the offense into “conservative mode” except in very rare cases (like with a lead very late in the 4th, or up 30+ points). Yeah your opponent gets more chances to come back, but (on average) they’re going to be coming back from farther away.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Dec 1, 2009 6:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He does need to learn looking off safeties
He also needs to learn playfaking, again it comes with time, you hit the nail on the head except for
HE DOES NOT NEED TO LEARN ANYTHING
that’s a lot to say!!
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 7:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You arew wrong and so is that statement
Just because he is “Steve Young” does not mean he is right. Even with the stats at the bottom of the page, it does not tell the story and what actually happened behind the numbers. Blocking is worse out of the particular formations…thats just clearly evident by watching the games, highlights, and any other footage. How do we even know that Steve Young watches the games? He is busy with his career in commentating…there’s no way to PROVE that Young or your point are accurate.
My points below with the video clips however, do show the opposite of your point and if I dig even deeper, I garuntee you, that I will find more to show you that under center, the line plays worse. Have you ever considered that the coaches reasoning for going to the shotgun more often is because of that factor?
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's also the way the league is now
The trend has been for more and more passes from the shotgun. It’s easier for the line to block that way, it’s easier for the QB to see the defensive scheme, and it gives him better throwing lanes.
Bottom line is you do what it takes to win. With Alex it’s throwing from the shotgun more than from under center.
by smileyman on Dec 1, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
There was just a piece on ESPN earlier today on how a ton more teams are doing it from shotgun and pread formations. They were talking about Vince Young mainly…but the whole point was like what Singletary said the other day…something like, “It’s better to go with your strengths than to be stubborn and say, ‘no I’m not gonna do that, not gonna conform’.” It just seems like the people who are on their littel islands and not seeing the entire picture for what it is
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
shotgun and pread formations
*spread formations… correct myself before the grammar police get here…haha
by Drew K on Dec 1, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you can't pass out of an I you will always need to be in the shotgun to have success.
If time is the issue you won’t have it under center. I would send blitzes every time he was under center than the team couldn’t run successfully. We see that out of the Shotgun is wack for the run game.
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 7:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true, but misses the point ...
I think it’s telling that Smith had his best game when he had the most time to throw.
It is not reasonable to say, “Be successful no matter what the o-line does.”
It is reasonable to say, “Learn how to throw from under center.” But it also requires that we upgrade the line so that he has time to do so.
Smith DOES have to learn how to throw from under center. But the team has to upgrade the line if they expect him to be effective doing so.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 30, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Teams play us differently and send more pressure because we don't handle the blitz well
We need a new OL coach and Smith needs to work on Pass pro adjustments, unless raye doesn’t have any
"Optimist Prime"
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Yes 10fortech, Crabtree can block, should the two drops question other things? I know none of those passes came down like a punt!!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 10:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Does he realize that we have to have a decent offensive line first in order for Smith to be successful out of all the formations?
he’s freakin Steve Young i’m pretty sure he knows this
"Pat is still just scratching the surface." - Coach Singletary on LB Patrick Willis
by 49erLou on Nov 29, 2009 10:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He played behind a pretty bad line for Tampa Bay
back in the day
by smileyman on Nov 29, 2009 11:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
copy and paste
"Optimist Prime"
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Yes 10fortech, Crabtree can block, should the two drops question other things? I know none of those passes came down like a punt!!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 10:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's up to you
If it’s worth posting, it’s worth the extra 5-10 seconds on your part to do it right.
Hey, don’t be lazy!
; )
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Nov 29, 2009 10:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
"Optimist Prime"
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Yes 10fortech, Crabtree can block, should the two drops question other things? I know none of those passes came down like a punt!!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 10:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Better yet
Link post fail…….It was a good read though
"Optimist Prime"
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Yes 10fortech, Crabtree can block, should the two drops question other things? I know none of those passes came down like a punt!!!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 10:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How'd you know my Kung-Fu was so vicious?
"Optimist Prime"
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Morgan dropped a TD, and the whole blogospere went nuts!!
Yes I want Eric Bery to be a 49er!
by rlott#42 on Nov 29, 2009 11:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I heard you use Chuck Norris toilet paper...
Yes, I'm sure Jerry Rice never dropped a single pass in his entire football career.
by 10forTech on Dec 1, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t even know Chuck Norris went to the bath room.
by bignerd on Dec 1, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't I just grunt real hard and it goes away
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Shotgun
I refuse to co-sign us utilizing the"shotgun" 90% of the time. Yes, Urban Myers offense worked well in Utah, and the same type offense worked well with Texas Tech, however we should stick to running the ball, and passing out of run friendly formations. This training wheel offense is geared to help Alex Smith be more efficient. Frank Gore is being waisted. We just need to be more creative, and less predictable with our playcalling. The shotgun only attempts to disguise our ineffectiveness offensively.
We need better playcalling. Sooner, or later teams will adapt to the shotgun, and we’ll be hard pressed to gain yards on the ground…This experiment may land us a wildcard spot, but how far we will go with it in the future is shakey…Alex needs to learn under the center"priod"..Peace ….Stelf Bombz
by STELF BOMBZ on Nov 30, 2009 1:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm beginning to think
Frank Gore’s better days may already be behind him. And he certainly isn’t the offensive best player on the team anymore running behind that offensive line.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Nov 30, 2009 4:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Best days behind him?
Wow…That seems like a pretty egregious statement. He seems to have alot left in the tank from what I have seen. He’s only 26. To me, I’d say he probably has 3 more solid years barring major injury.
He was the 65th overall pick in the 3rd round in ‘05 so maybe we can find another gem like that in this years draft and get him going so there’s no gap in between backs. Plus if we get another back, it perserves Gore’s career a little longer as well
by Drew K on Nov 30, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute!
I am beginning to think that he looks good getting short passes and yac, and that as soon as we improve the Oline he will be also running quite effectively from scrimmage.
(As someone pointed out elsehere (an ESPN study) running back productivity is completely dependent on oline quality.
by zacksf on Nov 30, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't go that far
The shelf-life for running backs is very short, especially for power backs like Gore. However you need to keep a few things in mind when looking at his performance this season.
1. His YPC is the second best it’s ever been (5.2)
2. He’s always been a boom or bust kind of guy. He’ll run a bunch of times for little gain then rip off a long one on you.
3. It’s still conceivable that he can end up with 1000 yards this season. He’s at 647 right now. Last time against the ‘Hawks he ripped them for 200 yds. We’ve got St. Louis again and Detroit again. All he needs is 353 more yards and he’ll have his 4th 1000 yard season in a row. Pretty impressive if you ask me.
We do need a better line, and we need a change of pace back. Get those and I think we have 3 or 4 more very productive years for Gore.
by smileyman on Nov 30, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the reason the spread offense is effective
(or at least part of the reason)
is related to the fact that the oline has two distinct weaknesses:
1) One of them is just the obvious inability to hold their blocks, to not get beaten quickly or driven back into the pocket.
2) The other is that they, as a unit, are very bad at anticipating and responding to where the pass rush is coming from.
In a spread offense assignments are simplified, and defenses cannot disguise their plans as much. This simplification leaves us with just the 1st weakness so that, although the protection is not great by any means, at least there are no missed assignments.
When one adds to that the extra vision of the shotgun, it is just enough to enable a passing game, for now. (It helps that the receivers, especially VD and MC (and FG), are quite good, and Alex has been making good decisions, good throws and getting his timing dialed recently.)
by zacksf on Nov 30, 2009 3:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Time factor isn't an issue
I timed it for last week’s game. in the NFL a passing play shouldn’t last more than 3 seconds. Most of our protection against GB was about 3 seconds. Sometimes Alex got the pass off in 2 seconds.
I think the key differences are familiarity with the offense, better downfield vision, and better throwing lanes. As he gets more experienced with the offense he’ll be able to throw under center as effectively and when we get some upgrades to our line he’ll have better throwing lanes.
by smileyman on Nov 30, 2009 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2) can be placed on the OC and the QB
Most QB’s adjust their protection based on what they see and we don’t have that with our team.
"Optimist Prime"
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Morgan dropped a TD, and the whole blogospere went nuts!!
Yes I want Eric Bery to be a 49er!
by rlott#42 on Nov 30, 2009 7:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It is hard to tell where the boundary is between how well AS reads that, and makes the appropriate calls, and how well the oline executes. I do think there are execution issues.
I don’t see any reason to believe that, after working with a stronger oline in the off-season, Alex Smith would have any weakness in that area. In fact, I would expect it to be one of his strengths, as he is regarded as very football-smart and analytical.
by zacksf on Dec 1, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Watch the play at the line of scrimmage
Our line is set at around 5 to 7 seconds on the play clock, there is no time to adjust. I could care lees what he is regarded as. I don’t know if you remember the sack he took in .5 seconds against the Packers, but they crowded the center nad he made no adjustments at all. It’s not apart of the O. Our philosophy is not too much to fast like Martz.
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
interesting point
but just to clarify: do you think the inability to make appropriate adjustments is more a question of OC and game planning, or the QB not recognizing defenses and making adjustments at the line…?
by zacksf on Dec 1, 2009 7:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's the philosophy by not burdening the QB with responsibility until there is more comfort
Basically the things being added are already in the playbook and if we want to be an elite team the basics of all formations need to be executed with consistency by the QB. It does include a lot of factors (OL,RB,TE, WR’s, and RB’s on the same page with the Qb in every small detail. Then you can tweek these type of things.
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 1, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There's another factor ...
It’s the center’s job to make the blocking call once he sees the defensive alignment. The QB can audible to another play, but defenders in the box are not where the O Line expects them, Heitman’s job is to make a call as to how they change up.
by Ronaldinho on Dec 1, 2009 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alex Smith and the Shotgun Spread
BAND NAME ALERT!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Dec 1, 2009 3:21 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
That spread is great on bagels.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 1, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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