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Jimmy Raye Approval Rating, Week 11

Jimmy_raye_approval_rating_medium

Jimmy Raye and the offensive line have probably been the two biggest punching bags to date for the 49ers offensive woes.  The quarterback position gets plenty of criticism, but I think Raye and the o-line have surpassed that.  Even Coach Singletary, in his press conference yesterday, praised Alex Smith's performance to date, indicating that he felt Smith was turning into a complete quarterback.

Fooch's Note: Viliphied has a fantastic FanPost looking at the team's success using a "spread" offense.  Initially I was worried about similarities, but I think there is enough difference to stick with my original post.  This is more of a broader overlook at what people really want in the offense and the term "spread offense."

The major criticism/suggestion lately has been to switch to more of a spread style offense.  Although this is the Jimmy Raye Approval Rating, and we'll be discussing Raye's play-calling, I wanted to focus more on the offensive philosophy and this idea of a "spread offense."  People throw the term out there in a variety of contexts, and I think it'd be useful to clarify that context.  In yesterday's press conference, somebody asked Mike Singletary about this issue and Singletary asked for clarification.  In that instance, the reporter meant utilizing the shotgun more frequently with more receivers on the field.

Here at Niners Nation, we've heard a variety of comments about the spread, and I'd like to bring them together in this post.  I've heard comments discussing everything from simply the number of receivers on the field, to using the shotgun with receivers, to discussions about something like the Jim Kelly offense used in Buffalo back in the early 90s.  I guess I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what people want in the 49ers offense, at least as it's constituted personnel-wise at this point in time.

When I look at the shotgun, I see a couple issues.  First, would the team be able to effectively run from that formation?  Somebody mentioned how Thurman Thomas was an effective running back in Buffalo's offense, but I'd like a little more detail on that if you can provide it.  Do running plays from the shotgun become more direct-snap plays, as opposed to hand-offs?  The other issue I have is the offensive line.  If it takes the pass rush X amount of time to get to the quarterback, wide receivers only have X amount of time to run routes and get open.  If the QB is in the shotgun, and doesn't drop much further back, isn't it going to take the same X amount of time for pass rushers to get in his face?  I suppose there's an extra half second or so, but is that enough time?  With the offensive line performing as it currently is, it seems incredibly difficult to develop any kind of deep vertical game since you need time for your receivers to run their routes.

So, I guess this is more of a general inquiry into the offense.  Sort of a, how would you operate the offense the rest of this season with the personnel in place?

Poll
Do you approve of the job Jimmy Raye is doing as offensive coordinator?
Yes
82 votes
No
541 votes

623 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 73 comments |

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Comments

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Never approved Raye’s hiring, still don’t approve of him.

"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra

by 49er16 on Nov 25, 2009 10:08 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

There was a reason Raye was the 7th or 8th OC interviewed by the Niners...

and not the first….That being said, if Miami can bring back the wildcat and the Titans can bust out the pitch/option, why can’t the Niners roll with the spread? Retro baby!

by sanfranfanmdk on Nov 25, 2009 10:22 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

And that reason was...

Sing told him I’m calling the shots, and he wanted someone to remain in place for a few years. You can tell, reading what Sing says about A.Smith and J.Raye, he’s going to keep both of them.

Looking to put San Fran*six-o* here some time soon!

by dartdart on Nov 25, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Amen.

In fact, let’s go with the Wildcat, option, and spread. Innovation baby! ;-)

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 26, 2009 1:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Even if

Crabtree hasn’t learned every play yet, he can already tell how awful the offense is that we run! If we are to have success with this team and a motivational speaker and leader as our head coach, then it is extremely important for us to have top notch play callers as our coordinators. So far, Raye has shown no reason why he should stay on as oc. What is with the incompetence of the front offices we have around here! Come on bay area wake up and build us a winner for once!

by ar4gsw on Nov 25, 2009 10:29 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I gave Raye a hesitant thumbs up

because I think the Niners’ problems have more to do with the bodies on the field than the playcalling, although it seems pretty clear to everyone now that the team cannot move the ball from a standard formation with the QB up against the center.

I may give Raye a thumbs down at the end of the season, or next week, but that will be for his inability to adapt his offense with the ragamuffin cast of characters he has.

by Bob On The Coast on Nov 25, 2009 10:35 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

WHAT DOES IT EVER MATTER?

Jimmy Raye, Norv Turner, we could bring back Mike Shnanahan and it wouldn’t matter because Jed and his stupid father have proven that they only know how to do what it takes to lose. Its been 7 years of losing can’t you see yet that these guys don’t know and never will know how to run a winning program?

These idiots including Scott (I only draft mediocre players at best) McCloughan don’t care about winning and they don’t know how anyway. If you 49er fans thing they’ll ever put a winning product on the field you are delusional. Even Al Davis has the balls to pay what needs to be paid to get the top players.

HEY YORKS PUT US OUT OF OUR MISERY! YOU ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE NFL OWNERSHIP FOODCHAIN AND THERE IS NO END TO THELOSING IN SITE!!!

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 10:39 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

well done, sir.

Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl

by Viliphied on Nov 25, 2009 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it’s my unintentional typos that really put it over the top.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I also like the people who are taking me seriously.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

that really adds that something extra.

Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl

by Viliphied on Nov 25, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the one knock against it

you used too much correct punctuation

Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl

by Viliphied on Nov 25, 2009 11:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, hell!!

Then forget what I said earlier. I’m horrible at noticing humor when said with a straight face. You got me good.

I’m too defensive against the overwhelming impatience on display in general. Enough to where I’m all too easy to fool. :-)

by Ovalshine on Nov 25, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Quoi?

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ummm

I may be wrong, but weren’t Patrick Willis, Joe Staley and Vernon Davis drafted under McCloughan? Those three are definitely NOT mediocre. And if I was an organization, I would be glad to not be associated with/compared to the likes of Al Davis, just look at the Raiders, look at them! lol

by sanfranfanmdk on Nov 25, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Patrick Willis was luck and Vernon Davis was a terribe pick (never pick a TE in the top 10). What about losing a top 10 pick to get Adam Snyder or drafting Kentwan Balmer or David Baas or Chiloh Rachal.

Or my personal favorite Kwame Harris.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And this year Michael Crabtree is a worse pick than Harvin. Look at harvin he has all the tools, speed, crisp routes. He’s electric. The only place Crabtree matches up with him is with his hands.

LOOKS LIKE WE MADE THE WRONG PICK ONCE AGAIN! WHEN WILL IT STOP? ONLY WHEN THE YORKS SELL TO SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS WHAT THEIR DOING!!!

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

WHY IS THIS POST HERE

NO ONE CARES!

"Pat is still just scratching the surface." - Coach Singletary on LB Patrick Willis

by 49erLou on Nov 25, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

AND

ALLEN ROSSUM WAS OUR FUTURE!!!!

by Drew K on Nov 25, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm

Maybe we combine The Sear with KSWOF for an uber-user.

by Fooch on Nov 25, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My God.

With their powers combined… they could rule the blagosphere!

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BLAHgosphere?

by sfgfan on Nov 25, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I heard about it on the Interblag!

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gear Down Turbo

I think Harvin would look Crabtree-esque if he was getting thrown the meatballs our guy is from our QB, had not shown up to conditioning, and had an LOLine defending his QB like ours has. I think we made the right choice; it’s still hidden though…

Looking to put San Fran*six-o* here some time soon!

by dartdart on Nov 25, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

Apparently you still haven’t caught on. Just thought I’d give you a heads up.

by sfgfan on Nov 25, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rachal was not a bad pick

"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?

by rlott#42 on Nov 26, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was joking.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2009 10:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hoping to see

Some major purchases this off season through free agency or I’m going to have to agree with you on the ownership. Scotty Mac? I think he’s pretty good at picking talent. Could be better. Not too bad overall.

Looking to put San Fran*six-o* here some time soon!

by dartdart on Nov 25, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was joking.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I sort of caught that

But don’t you want to see the owners throw out some coin this off season?

Looking to put San Fran*six-o* here some time soon!

by dartdart on Nov 25, 2009 5:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The picure above

I hope he is looking at himself in the mirror and telling himself it’s time to walk.

by Drew K on Nov 25, 2009 10:41 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I voted no

As much I as I disagree with the critics, I equally disagree with how Raye ran that first half. Not questioning the run plays in any way, but having a pass play to go beyond 5 yards wouldn’t hurt.

by Ovalshine on Nov 25, 2009 10:48 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

except it would hurt actually

when #74 Smashes into Alex Smith half way through the development of the play.

by zacksf on Nov 25, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't answer this question fairly

until we know how much of the play calling is Sing’s wish to run conservative and how much is Raye.

We know he can open it up—did it against Houston, did it again against GB. It means he has the plays and the ability on the offense to make them.

So what’s holding him back?

I choose to abstain this week. I don’t really like the way our offense is run but I’m thinking that Sing is as much to blame for that as Raye.

by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 11:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fooch/ K-GUN OFFENSE- BILLS (Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed)

I found the actual playbook online and it goes in to extreme detail….too much to put in a single post. It takes a while for the entire thing to load up but if you are interested in looking at it in detail, here is the link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2944874/1994-Buffalo-Bills-K-Gyn-Offense-Marv-Levy

Here is another article on it as well:
http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-3/bills-no-huddle-not-return-of-k-gun/c810fd9f-8157-4c16-8c4b-70564755a8b4
and there is a bunch more that you could read up on.

The main reason why I think it would help is due to the fact that Alex Smith functions great in a hurry-up; no huddle offense. There were alot of reasons it was effective in the 90’s for the Bills. Audibles at the line were key in the offense so it something that Smith would have t get used to doing. But the greatest example that I noticed in Thurman Thomas when they ran it is if there was a mismatch, or even a 5 on 5 (4 down linemen and a LB) because the rest of the D was spread out. At the line of schrimmage, Kelly would audible to a run and Thomas would take a direct snap and just go (Sometimes it would be a delayed handoff as well. This also set up play action quite well freezing safeties in the secondary. Gore in the Chicago game took a couple direct snaps but Smith was not in the back field, so the defense knew it was coming (even though it still worked a couple times). I think it is important to have the QB back there also (you arent so transparent when that is the case). The K-Gun is good for creating mismathces primarily; as well as not allowing defenses to get subs in there. Obviously it would take an entire offseason to implement this completely and totally but it’s something worth considering. And if the season is a loss, then start mixing it in there now in practice and then in games.

Gore is comparitive to Thomas as far as being able to catch and run the ball very effectively. And our WR’s arent Andre Reed and James Lofton but they have the potential to be IMO. I also believe that Rams ran their own version of it at times when they had Warner, Faulk, Bruce, and Holt. The most glaring difference is the offensive line obviously, however, if we do well enough in the draft and or free agency in upgrading, we could definitely pull it off with the guys we have. We would actually have one more weapon in a great TE. I mean Metzelaars was good but I think V. Davis is strides beyond what Metzelaars could do.

The bottom line I think here is that that style offense could be effective in alot of different areas both run and pass. With what we have in our personel, by spreading it out, it defintely prevents teams from blitzing as much also. Our Oline could certainly use the leverage in that.

Anyhow, thats my two cents on it since you asked.

by Drew K on Nov 25, 2009 11:17 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

ooh that looks interesting

definitely going to read over that

by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Time

You also mentioned time. It actually doesnt provide more time; probably not even an extra half second. The thing it does provide is the ability to read the defense better. He sees where everyone is going as soon as the ball is snapped versus the traditional method of having to drop back from under center where it take a second more to see the field.

by Drew K on Nov 25, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

On more addition...this was from wikapedia
The first team to employ the no-huddle approach as the normal offensive play strategy was the 1988-89 Cincinnati Bengals under Sam Wyche with Boomer Esiason as the quarterback.3 The no-huddle approach was used by many teams before but in specific situations for a limited time. This strategy proved to be very effective in limiting substitutions, creating fatigue in the opposing defense, creating play-calling issues for the defense, and various other advantages. The Bengals’ regular employment of the no-huddle was sufficiently controversial that the league experimented with mid-season rules changes to discourage its use.34 The employment of the no-huddle propelled the Bengals to their second appearance in the Super Bowl.
The Buffalo Bills, defeated in the AFC Championship game by the no-huddle Bengals, soon adopted their approach. With Jim Kelly quarterbacking a no-huddle “K-Gun” offense, the Bills became the only team in NFL history to appear in four consecutive Super Bowls, from 1991-1994.56
Currently the Indianapolis Colts with Peyton Manning as quarterback, New England Patriots with Tom Brady, Cincinnati Bengals with Carson Palmer, and more recently, Atlanta Falcons with Matt Ryan employ their own variations of this approach.36

by Drew K on Nov 25, 2009 11:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right.

Despite my earlier thinking, the actual review of the game shows that there were no difference in time. A QB should be able to get the ball out in 3 sec—which Alex did on a regular basis. I think that you’re right in that the key is in giving Alex a little extra time/room to see how the defense is set up and see where the open guy is.

by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

interesting.

thanks for the interesting comment.

by zacksf on Nov 25, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like a great plan

Except our best players on offense are Frank Gore (RB) and Vernon Davis (TE). Coincidentally, the best pass blockers too.

Has anyone notice when the team does go into WR passing formations Vernon Davis and Frank Gore are the ones lined up in the WR spots. The next guy is Delanie Walker, so your asking to go to a WR formation offense without WRs.

by bignerd on Nov 25, 2009 9:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but the good thing about having Gore back there

Is you can audible him as needed. For instance if Smith sees more guys coming. He could audible him in. At least thats what Kelly did when you picked it up. You could also send guys in motion to exploit the defense and make them show what they are doing

by Drew K on Nov 25, 2009 10:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gore would primarily stay back with Smith

That is what the Bills did with Kelly and Thomas.

by Drew K on Nov 25, 2009 10:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The next guy is Delanie Walker, so your asking to go to a WR formation offense without WRs.

I hate it when people dont think comments through before hitting the post button.

Crabtree, Hill, Morgan, and Jones are capable of catching passes and getting open. Especially considering this would create alot of one on one matches.

by Drew K on Nov 25, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Formation

That I think Alex and this team need:

Shotgun, single back or no back. Two TE’s or one. At least 3 receivers (including TE if necessary) split out from the tackles. Lots of motions for two reasons, 1. helps identify defense, 2. allows to bring blockers to point of attack pre-snap.

Running from the Gun isn’t such a big deal for Gore. Snap, catch, handoff. There is really no sidestepping, stuttering, etc. You can direct snap it if you want, sure. You can also motion Gore out of the backfield to create a super spread whereby, granted you’d need mediocre pass protection on those plays…but you’d be certain to get a mismatch in coverage.

The point being you have a ton of athletes on the field who can run pass routes. Who is the defense going to use to cover each? They have to decide and you have to exploit the mismatches. If they choose to go to a Dime defense (6 DBs) you have a run mismatch. If they go base, you have LB’s covering Gore, Walker, Davis…or worse (for the defense) miscommunication puts a LB on a WR.

by Tre9er on Nov 25, 2009 11:24 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

also in Dime

you get a safety or dime corner on VD, Walker, Gore…the physical guys on our offense…they are too powerful for those little guys to cover

by Tre9er on Nov 25, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If we have an empty backfield

it sets us up for a blitz. OTOH if we run a two TE spread we can keep one of them on the line as an extra blocker.

I also really like the idea of keeping Gore in the backfield, and having two receivers go deep. After a 2 count Gore goes out to the flats giving Alex a dump off if the receivers downfield aren’t open.

by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or you could try adapting a two RB backfield you see in college...

Send 2 WR and the TE to the line, keep two RB’s in the backfield. Use one back for blocking the blitz and the other for hot routes like screen passes, draw plays or maybe even trying to run the corners.

by sigma on Nov 25, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

MattMaiocco
  
Dre’ Bly at cornerback for Tarell Brown is possibility, 49ers coach Singletary says.

by Tre9er on Nov 25, 2009 11:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

WITH ALL THESE UNGRATEFUL FANS

MOVE THE TEAM TO L.A…. I’M WAITING WITH OPEN ARMS :D (smile from ear to ear)

"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are"

by Bo$$Ixta! on Nov 25, 2009 1:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

From your position

Every fan of a struggling team is ungrateful.

by goatfather on Nov 25, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The spread helps the line.

Nothing to do with quickness, but if you have 3 or 4 wideouts they are in nickle. That helps the line because 1) Chilo almost knows who to block 2) they cannot crowd as many guys at the line. The DB’s could just man up, but we finally have the talent to beat man coverage.

by goatfather on Nov 25, 2009 1:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Chilo almost knows who to block

I lol’d.

by sfgfan on Nov 25, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rachal has improved pretty good

We need a replacement for Snyder and one for Baas though.

by smileyman on Nov 25, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Name a whiffless lineman besides the Center in Tennessee

You can’t, let’s not let our losing games cloud guys that are actually improving. Rachal has stepped up and Snyder has stepped back. Plust Smith doesn’t let the pocket form around him he drops too deep and outside of it in the Shotgun and especially under center. Our Qb is sacked or pressured by the LDE’s outside pressure and dropping out of the pocket initially makes it hard on the RT and LT.

"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?

by rlott#42 on Nov 26, 2009 7:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Chilo

Misses blocks on run plays as well.
I do like the guy and I’m not saying he wont be a good tackle.
However, he has cost us big in crucial situations. Like when you watch the film and everyone else is blocked, but alas, Chilo’s guy is running free and Chilo is looking around confused.

by goatfather on Nov 27, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Chilo is a guard for 1

2. He also makes key blocks on a lot of Gores big runs, every player on our o-line has had bad plays where they have missed blocks in the run and pass. Our best OL performance this season goes to Barry Sims

"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?

by rlott#42 on Nov 28, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Raye

I think the offensive scheme is OK. And there is enough in there to move from heavy run to (what we’ve been doing in the second half) heavy pass. I don’t like his play calling. I’d like the playbook to stay the same for next year and someone else call the plays. You could probably pull plays out of the book at random and have more success than we’ve had. I think the team needs to do an offense, any offense, two years in a row. That would be nice. We need to buy some talent at a couple of spots. If daddy loosens the purse strings it might be a good year next year seeing as how we have cap space, two first rounders, good WRs, good RB, good LBs, good TE. 1 Pass rusher, 2 OGs, 1 shut down corner. I think that would be enough to get back into the hunt, not that we’re not this year (statistically).

Looking to put San Fran*six-o* here some time soon!

by dartdart on Nov 25, 2009 2:39 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Raye is nothing great but he can’t call plays that the players can’t perform consistently. He needs to have at least some trust in the QB and the O line before he can feel comfortable enough to open up the playbook. And we now all understand that Alex and the O line are not trustworthy at all.
It’s a sad reality,our starting QB is not very good and the O line makes him even worse and the OC is not good enough to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

by TOP_CAT on Nov 25, 2009 3:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Emphatic vote is emphatic.

Lethargy
It has me

by dregarx on Nov 25, 2009 3:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

This week should show if the problem is really Alex Smith or the O Line

The Jags have the league’s lowest sack total, with 10. If Alex Smith doesnt do well this week, there is nobody to blame; unless of course, the O-Line indeed does give up pressure.

by Fifty NINERS on Nov 25, 2009 11:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The commentators

Are saying that we should air it out, AND think we can be successful at it. I wonder why?

by goatfather on Nov 26, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's keep it real gentleman

We all should have given Raye a thumbs up, that dumb ass play with Morgan in motion stopping by the TE was not ran in this recent week. It took long enough but it was scrapped.

"Optimist Prime"
Haden and Berry 1st round?

by rlott#42 on Nov 26, 2009 7:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

good point

If only we had replaced it with a PASS!!

by goatfather on Nov 27, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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