time to get rid of another coach
by mudewada on Nov 8, 2009 6:17 PM PST
118 comments
geez how many head coach positions are we going to have keep filling because they keep makimg the same mistake of going with Alex Smith? Alex Smith has been the albatross of every team and coach we've had here ever since we drafted him. Mike do yourself a favor, it's time to lose Alex Smith before you end up going down with the ship. We're angry that you made the same mistake all your peers made. Hill isn't a joe montana, but at least he's got charactor and wins some and protects the ball. You we'ren't gonna beat the Vikes or the Colts anyway, so why you pull Hill? At least he would have beaten the Titans, Alex Smith always finds a way to beat himself, 3 tumbles and 2 picks? Just admitt you made a mistake and go with Hill, you already blew this year with your rookie decission to bench Hill and go with Smith, but you're just a rookie, so if you turn it around we may keep you around. Don't be another coach Alex Smith get cuts, while he collects his big checks for nothing.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Good post!
But hey look at the choices! Hill or Smith? Seriously I’d rather have Joey Harrington than either! I LIKE Mike and I agree with you put Hill back in and salvage what you can. But better yet GET FREAKING CREATIVE! We could have traded for Chris Redmen for a late 5th round pick. Is he a SB QB??? NO. Is he way better that Hill or Smith – YES!
Did we try to get Farve? Sanchez? Anybody? Was there no late round project quarterback? Josh Freeman? Dennis Dixon?
by FalconOwn49ers on Nov 8, 2009 6:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Smith/Hill
Once again, this is a post that belongs in another discussion (specifically the “”http://www.ninersnation.com/2009/11/8/1121995/alex-smith-sucks" target="new">Alex Smith sucks" FanPost), but I’d like to make one comment about this first. Do you actually think Shaun Hill could have rolled out and thrown the TD to Jason Hill like Smith? Hill does not have that kind of mobility.
I’m putting together an Alex Smith post for the AM, but the general point I see is that there really is no upside with Hill. Smith might not be the answer, but I’d rather give him the rest of the season and make that decision.
by Fooch on Nov 8, 2009 6:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Well said Fooch
Yet another stupid post. Hill could not move the team and could not score points. Smith was not perfect today after 2 good games so let’s crucify him. Let’s give him some protection first and then judge. Oh and one interception was from a pass that should have easily been caught instead of deflected. All I can say is typical Niner fan meltdown!
by clair channel fan on Nov 8, 2009 7:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You're overstating the case...
What I think you could say about Smith so far is that he’s played just well enough to lose, which was what they usually used to say about Steve DeBerg, if you ever watched him. Smith lost the first game he was in this year by throwing a pick. He got picked last week. He isn’t exactly lighting up the scoreboard to offset the interceptions, either. I’m giving it 2 more weeks before I start really screeching and sending off rabid, semi-coherent posts in all caps about how much Alex Smith sucks, though. He has been sitting, and it is yet another new offensive scheme. Who knows? Maybe he’ll get it together. I don’t think it’s very likely, but then again, I was also sure the Titans would play about as poorly with Vince Young under center. So far, I appear to be wrong about that.
by asleepinSF on Nov 8, 2009 10:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Smith lost the first game he was in this year by throwing a pick"
Wait… wait… wait…
I’m far from a Smith defender, but were you watching the other 59:30 of that Texans game? Or did you just watch the desperation heave for a pick at the end?
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Nov 9, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I managed to watch most of the half Smith played.
I’ve seen quite enough of Hill, thank you. Farve might have pulled it off. Montana might have. Elway. I doubt that Smith ever will. Admittedly, not easy, to come from behind and throw a TD in the closing seconds, but the greats have all done it semi-regularly. So far, the comparison to DeBerg seems fairly apt, except that DeBerg would often have a 300 yard game going before he turned it all into manure. Smith’s never had one of those. Maybe if he’d played the entire Texans game, he’d have finally had one. Hard to say. Might have more picks, too. Smith’s either got to put up fewer balls that his receivers can only get a fingertip on, or he’s got to get a lot less bold about throwing into coverage.
by asleepinSF on Nov 9, 2009 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That pick was on a 4th-and-ten when he was under pressure ...
… but had no time to take a sack, and no downs to throw it away with. Blaming him for that loss is insane.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 9, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All I'm actually pointing out is that he couldn't salvage it...
which makes him ordinary, neither all that good or all that bad, for that game. He did throw the pick instead of the strike, which did seal the loss. The last game was just meh. This one was fairly awful. I haven’t written Smith off yet, believe it or not, but my expectations are quite low. He does seem to get the offense moving a little, which Hill usually didn’t. If he could just cut down the gawddam turnovers somehow…
by asleepinSF on Nov 9, 2009 10:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
0-6
That is Alex Smith’s record in his last six starts..Alex Smith will do just enough to lose you the game..His record as a starting QB is abominable..
Fooch you are wrong wrong and wrong again..Mudewada is right on..
I repeat 0-6, enough said, scoreboard..ALEX SMITH IS A LOSER AND ALWAYS WILL BE A LOSER
by The Sear on Nov 8, 2009 7:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Alex Smith
So the fact that 4 of those starts took place in 2007 equates them to 2009 starts? Ok.
by Fooch on Nov 8, 2009 7:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Picks Fooch
How any picks has Alex Smith thrown in the fourth quarter of the last three games????
by The Sear on Nov 8, 2009 7:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Smith
Please point to where I said Alex Smith is the guy of the future and is gonna be great? Yes he’s struggled. And yes he’s probably not the answer. But given the money they’ve invested in him, I’d like to get a complete answer for him. Seeing as this is his first regular season action since 2007, I’m actually willing to give him a few more games before throwing him on the trash heap for good.
I’m actually going to post about this tomorrow. If at the end of the season (or at least late December) he hasn’t take the necessary steps forward, I have absolutely no problem cutting him.
by Fooch on Nov 8, 2009 7:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So when the superbowl QB named Kurt Warner throws 5 picks he should be benched?
It happens all over the league there are very few QB’s who haven’t had a performance like this and they were on better teams.
"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco
by rlott#42 on Nov 8, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the post everyone should read, then stop and read again.
Breathe, people. Bad stuff happens to incomplete teams.
Let’s stop with the “crucify the QB” and start thinking about replacing offensive linemen and/or coordinators.
49ers, Giants, Lakers. One of these things is not like the others.
Adoptive parent of Duke Neukom.
Still hoping there's a corner for Alex Smith to turn at some point.
by Gabafnerhagen on Nov 8, 2009 9:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at the latest run...
of recent Fanposts, I now think of the right side of the page like it was the Webzone or .com’s message boards.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Nov 8, 2009 7:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm surprised I came in here
but I’m not surprised that you feel that way. How do you kill a troll drummer, because I don’t know how?
I won’t be around for a couple of days, because just seeing the headlines of the fanpost is giving me BP issues.
by Andrew Davidson on Nov 8, 2009 7:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You flag and delete their stories
It works on other SBN boards. Typically they re-post the same crappy fan post with complaints about censorship. Everyone comes back to ridicule them before the 2nd deletion than they just quite. It’s actually a lot of fun.
by bignerd on Nov 8, 2009 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is how you kill a troll...
Send them bed without supper.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Nov 8, 2009 10:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FOOCH
What is Alex Smith record for his career, horrible!!!
by The Sear on Nov 8, 2009 7:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
wins and losses
The QB certainly deserves some credit and blame in a given win or loss, but as always, wins and losses are not QB stats. Football is a team game and the entire lineup of players is responsible for wins and losses.
by Fooch on Nov 8, 2009 7:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Compare Vince Young’s stats and Alex Smith’s stats since they’ve started and you’ll see they are nearly identical. You’ll also see that Vince Young has a lot more wins than Alex. So if they’re playing identical football but Vince has more wins, what does that tell you about the teams? It means the Titans have been a better football team over the last few years. Finally Smith is starting on a competent team and has a chance to succeed. I agree that this a the year that will tell if Smith has what it takes.
by Kaizre on Nov 9, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What has Smith been surrounded by?
Horrible offenses
"Optimist Prime"
"Child Please" -Ochocinco
by rlott#42 on Nov 8, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FOOCH!!!
WINZ/LOSSEZ!!! DON’T YOU GET IT??? HE THROWS INTS!!! SHAN HILL PROTECTS THE BALL AND WINZ!!!
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Nov 9, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
YEAH, FOOCH! LOOK AT THE SCOREBOARD!!!!!!
Um, so your point is we need to go back to Shaun Hill and his one-or-two max TD drives per game? Ladies and gents, we have a winner!
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Nov 9, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ever heard of spell check?
"Pat is still just scratching the surface." - Coach Singletary on LB Patrick Willis
by 49erLou on Nov 8, 2009 8:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spell_check
"Pat is still just scratching the surface." - Coach Singletary on LB Patrick Willis
by 49erLou on Nov 8, 2009 8:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My god.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 8, 2009 8:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
LOL people need to chill and anaylze the situation here. This team is still learning how to win. We are a very young team with a lot of potential.
49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha
by 49erSalvatrucha on Nov 8, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing that worries me...
Is that that’s what people have been saying about the “Golden State” Warriors for about 20 years.
by asleepinSF on Nov 8, 2009 10:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Singletary
This post has kind of become hijacked by the Alex Smith debate. But its original question is a valid one – is Singletary the man for the job, still? I think he is, but I admit I am starting to wonder. And until Fooch posts his weekly Singletary approval rating, this seems as good a place to have that conversation as any – as Fooch says, there is an Alex Smith debate already raging elsewhere, but not a Singletary one.
Also of interest to me was the comments last night post-game. I went to bed as soon as the game ended, as it was past midnight, so I scrolled through the inquest this morning. It seems that the blame was split more or less equally between Jimmy Raye, Alex Smith and the O-Line. Pretty much nobody blamed the Head Coach.
So is Singletary bullet proof? Is it the case that none of the defeats are ever on him? For the record, I am not saying it is his fault. I’m definitely not saying I want him out. If there was a ‘beginning to waver’ button in Fooch’s next Singletary approval vote, I’d go for that. I would definitely not vote ‘No’.
But I am interested in the fact that he seems to duck every inquest into every defeat. None of the beat writers seem to suggest anything he does is wrong, and none of the fans on here seem to ever blame him for any loss.
But is the tide starting to turn? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe yesterday was the first defeat we’ve had this season when Singletary has NOT confidently predicted afterwards that we’d make the play-offs. Is he starting to doubt himself? It’s a long road back to relevance for this team, never mind dominance, and there can be no doubt that Singletary and Raye have not got the players, or at least the offensive players, to win divisional titles yet. But you DO need to see signs of improvement, and yesterday felt like we’d gone backwards in terms of the aggression, the passion, and the direction … in short all of the things you expect from a Mike Singletary team.
Interestingly (or to me anyway) some of this chimes with what’s happening on this side of the pond, in rugby union. Martin Johnson is the UK’s biggest celebrity fan of the 49ers. He adores the NFL and knows more about the history of the Niners than some journalists. He is also a legend of the England rugby team from his playing days, and has recently taken over as the coach. They lose a lot, and lost again on Saturday, to Australia.
One journalist here wrote that “during his year in charge of the team, Martin Johnson has been unable to suggest that his thinking travels along anything other than straight lines. The inspiring quality that characterised him as a player and a captain is of little help when it comes to coordinating coaching strategy.”
Sound familiar? Perhaps the inspirational-player-turns-coach can only take you so far. Perhaps the Don’t Tell Me Show Me stuff gives players a kick at first, but wears off quickly? Perhaps legendary players do not make great coaches.
I’m not sure. I’ve definitely not had enough of Mike. I love Mike. I want him to be the 49ers coach for a long time to come and I want him to be a success. But I’m interested in the question mark, and equally interested that hardly anyone seems to even acknowledge that there might be a question mark there.
"This could be another Very Special Team" ... Superbowl winning Niners lineman Dan Audick ...
by LondonNiner on Nov 9, 2009 5:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Well put old chap
I’m still a Sing fan but he is the leader of the team and as such deserves as much scrutiny and criticism as anyone else in the 9er organization.
The future ain't what it used to be.
by riderless on Nov 9, 2009 10:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks - feels like it would be a decent conversation to have but I possibly put it in the wrong place.
"This could be another Very Special Team" ... Superbowl winning Niners lineman Dan Audick ...
by LondonNiner on Nov 9, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Problem is it takes time to rebuild a franchise with a new coach
The average length of time from a new head coach taking over to his first Super Bowl win is 4 years. (There are a couple of 1 year coaches but they took over Super Bowl teams, and then there’s Cohwer who took 14 years for his first championship).
We’re not even a full year into Mike’s tenure as head coach and people are ready to hang him out to dry. If we don’t see improvement by the end of next year we can start to have this conversation, but it’s way too early right now.
by smileyman on Nov 9, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A fair point, and some good and useful stats ...
… I’m definitely not ready to hang him out to dry, rather I’m interested that the conversation never seems to happen, though like you say smileyman, perhaps that is because the conversation is not legitimate yet. Interesting though that Raye, who has fewer miles on the clock than Singletary, seems fair game?
"This could be another Very Special Team" ... Superbowl winning Niners lineman Dan Audick ...
by LondonNiner on Nov 9, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Raye's done a good job play calling
the last couple of games. I think it was pretty clear that he was limited to what he had in the way of QB before. He ran lots of different formations the last two games and lots of different plays out of those formations.
You can’t blame him for lack of execution on those plays.
by smileyman on Nov 9, 2009 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i think he deserves 3 years at least
2 years for a winning record, 3 years to be a top 10 team. Anything more is great, but anything less deserves attention to go another route
by dalien82 on Nov 9, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This
Firing a coach after a string of defeats is the perfect way to make sure a franchise stays mired in suck. Give him a couple years, or we’re going to become the Raiders before the Raiders are done being the Raiders.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Nov 9, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This TEAM
has not learned how to finish games yet. Once they do, they’ll be dangerous. I’m not sure YET that Smith is the answer and I don’t think Hill is either… I really don’t have any confidence in Nate Davis (nor should I)…the guy played against a bunch of guys who were cut and or now are on practice squads.
Not sure if Smith will be the long-term answer but now that the switch has been made, you’ve gotta go with it for at least the rest of the season. Smith will dictate his own future. Should he be awful for the remainder, we’ll just have a high pick and somewhere in there we will need to draft a QB to replace. Smith has one more year on his contract, So let him finish it out either way, and if he does bad, and if we draft another QB in 2010, dont throw that guy in there immediatley. Let him learn and watch for a year behind Smith. Still too early to tell if Smith will flop. The rest of the season should tell us that story. But he did well against Houston and I thought he did pretty decent against the Colts. I am not sure that a couple of the 3 picks were even totally his fault. In fact, one of those should fully be put on Morgan (p.s. I dont care what anyone esles says about this).
Anyhow, too early to tell on Smith still. Of course everyone is entitled to think what they want.
by Drew K on Nov 9, 2009 5:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Drew K
give them time.
Let’s see what happens.
Not long ago some of you were calling for Vernon Davis’ head, then Crabtree’s.
Chill.
Try to see the big picture.
by zacksf on Nov 9, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
While I'd agree that Nate Davis will not do this year...
He did show enough to make the roster. You’ve also got to remember that the guys he was playing offense with were all nobodies, too. He looked decent, in spite of that. It would be nice if he could be the starter, since there are so many other needs to address in the draft. If Alex Smith could find a way to suck less, I’d be okay with that, too. We’ll see.
by asleepinSF on Nov 9, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nate Davis
He showed he was good enough to be a 3rd string QB on the 49ers roster.
This:
You’ve also got to remember that the guys he was playing offense with were all nobodies, too.
does not speak in Davis’ favor if thats what you thought it’d do.
Think about this for a second and really chew on it… If Shaun Hill and Alex Smith are nothing more than average QB’s, what does it say about Nate Davis being behind both of them? They do practice and the coaches do watch the practices beleive it or not… If Nate Davis was as stellar as everyone of the advocates of him are saying, then why would he not have climbed up to #2 on the depth chart? Do you really think that Singletary is that blind that he wouldn’t move up the best player? Besides, have you ever heard Davis speak? I don’t think he has the intellect to be a starting QB in the NFL.
Watch this entire film through and tell me if this guy sounds as smart as Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady, or Donovan McNabb… He makes Shaq sound smart. Dont tell me that to be a successful QB in the National Football League that all you need is skills because it’s not true… Anyway check it out, its about 5:53 in to the feed:
http://www.49ers.com/media-gallery/videos/Robinson-Report-Know-Your-Coach/08ee4d8a-3ba0-4136-937d-93e5274b5c73
by Drew K on Nov 9, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
I honestly have no words for that. Rediculous comes to mind, but somehow doesnt quite cut it.
by Camraman926 on Nov 9, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Red" iculous...LOL
I think that says it all…good response!
by Drew K on Nov 9, 2009 9:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's a rookie...
And there’s an acknowledged learning disability. There’s also a garbage O-line and some questionable wide receivers. I’d keep him 3rd on the depth chart for now, and I might move him further up it next year. I don’t know how book smart you have to be. I know Vince Young and Russell had lousy Wonderlic scores, but so did Dan Marino. Of course, the part of Marino’s brain that did football was so efficient that he started right away, anyway. That’s obviously not what Davis can do. All the same, he appeared to be able to make quick decisions that weren’t too horrible, and had very good body control, at least during preseason. He is more physically gifted than Smith or Hill, as far as I can tell. Whether the decision-making would hold up when things were less dumbed-down than they are in the preseason, and with guys who are on average, slightly faster, who knows. At least right now, I’m sure it wouldn’t.
by asleepinSF on Nov 9, 2009 10:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure about you
but when I think franchise QB, I tend to think of guys like Peyton manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Donovan McNabb… nothing about Nate Davis suggests at all that he will or ever could be that type of player. Football takes intellegence. The guy, despite his “learning disability” is barely functional. I can just see the press conferences now…how embaracing would that be?
Im sorry but me personally, I want a normal guy in there. Alex Smith is very smart and has pretty decent skills that will be developed over time if he doesn’t get hurt again and gets some continuity in there. I would not be dissapointed if Davis rode the bench his entire career. In fact, I don’t even want him on the roster.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Learning disabilities, intelligence, and identifying a potential franchise QB
I wonder if you’ve ever dealt with somebody with a learning disability. Learning disability is NOT a euphemism for “stupid” – but people with learning disabilities are often mistaken for being stupid.
Similarly, it’s a mistake to confuse academic smarts with athletic smarts. Steve Young is a person who has both … Brett Farve has athletic smarts, but academic ones? Not really. (Steve Young is almost certainly academically smarter than Joe Montana, to use another example, but I’d probably rather have Joe as my QB.)
I absolutely agree with you that Smith seems very smart, and seems like a normal guy. Despite that, it’s not at all clear (and I say this as one of his bigger supporters on this board) that he’s going to ever become an above-average QB.
Lastly, I want out to point out some things about the players you list above. Manning, Brees, Brady, and McNabb.
Peyton Manning’s rookie numbers were 6.5YPA, 4.9% INT rate, numbers which are remarkable for being almost identical or arguably even worse than Smith’s this season. NOw, sure, rookie-vs-non-rookie, absolutely – although Peyton that year was only one year younger than Smith is now. But that’s not actually my point, since I want to make comparisons to Davis here. Manning is the outlier in this group that it was abundantly clear to everyone that he had tons of talent from the moment he stepped onto a football field.
Donovan McNabb? His first year he had a 4.4YPA, and his second year was still under 6. Brady? In his rookie year he completed one pass in three attempts! Brees? In his second and third seasons he was thoroughly mediocre, so much so that San Diego felt it was in their best interest into draft a QB with the top pick in the draft.
So when you say that “nothing about Nate Davis suggests at all that he will or ever could be that type of player” I have to ask you: what about Brady, Brees, or McNabb said that they could be a franchise player halfway through their rookie season?
The only way you can make an unfavorable comparison between what Davis has accomplished (or, rather, not accomplished) and what those three players accomplished at a similar point in their career is to use hindsight – to just those player’s non-performances in their rookie year in the context of who they later proved to be.
Davis has, so far, looked fantastic in the limited opportunity he’s been given. Now, that may not mean much, it quite frankly it’s hard to imagine anyone – even Peyton Manning as a rookie – doing better than he did in that preseason action. You simply do not have the evidence to judge him as strongly as you have.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 10, 2009 10:32 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Evidence?
McNabb, Brady, Manning…and whoever else you want to throw in there all can conduct press conferences and speak with a certain level of intelligence.
Nate Davis? The guy thinks that you can got to 10 Pro Bowls in 6 seasons. It has nothing to do with his learning disability and you are the one who brought that in to the conversation. If you have ever heard the guy talk, he’s just plumb-dumb.
And really c’mon…preseason? Tim Couch had a good preseason too…and so did Brady Quinn his first year..In fact, Jamarcus Russell did as well….So you’re going to sit there and tell me he did good against majority of players that are currently asking people if they “want fries with that” like it means anything? Wow…
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you want to judge a QB by his ability to handle his first major press conference?
That might make you dumber than you’re claiming he is.
And I am not (as you might have noticed if you paid attention to my post) saying that I think Davis will be a franchise-level QB. I am saying that you have no way of knowing.
ANd how he performed in his first major preseason action is CERTAINLY more relevant to his eventual QB success than how he performed in his first major press conference.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 10, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That might make you dumber than you’re claiming he is.
You’re the genius that said Favre was unintelligent scolastically and talking about a 5th rounder being a preseason showcase… so uh….I’m rubber your glue?
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait to see you eat
an enormous helping of CROW when Nate Davis becomes the QB of the future. You obviously are not an expert when it comes to judging talent. Dumb? I don’t think so. There are people who can’t speak well who are brilliant athletes. I remember a guy named Bo Jackson. I coached an autistic kid in basketball. He would never make eye contact and barely talked, but put him on a basketball court and he would dazzle. Great basketball smarts — played point guard. So, based upon my experiences, I would have to say your opinion is strongly biased.
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Nov 10, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I won’t hold my breath…
Smith is only a couple years older than Davis. If Alex performs to his potential, then it’s probably not going to happen.
And I am not putting Davis down for his disability, I’m putting him down because he lacks a certain level of intellegence that I would expect from a franchise type of QB. Like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Matt Ryan.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
intelligence
You’re basing his lack of intelligence off of a minute or two’s discussion on a player’s tv show. You need to provide more than that before anybody is going to take you seriously.
by Fooch on Nov 10, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure there’ll be more from him. And to be honest, I am sure that there are people here who feel the same way that I do…so even if I’m not taken seriously by even a majority, I really could care less. In fact, in another one of these theads someone did agree with me.
Seems like you are the one being subjective here by calling me out saying people arent going to take me seriously if I don’t find more eveidence when I provided evidence already. If I changed my opinion, I’d be selling out to please everyone who disagreed. So that statement by you is very subjective in and of itself.
I don’t think that this vid here shouts intellegence either. I think he has a good heart but that’s not what matters in the equation. I am sure that the supporters will try and contradict me here but if people are paying close attention, you won’t miss the fact that he is not among the ranks of the people that I mentioned before as far as intellect goes. Nor will he be. It’s just one of those things that you have or don’t:
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A few points, in the spirit of reconciliation:
I understand that you don’t want somebody who doesn’t pass some arbitrary threshold of intelligence to be the face of the franchise. Ultimately, quite frankly, I don’t care.
I only care if he’s capable of winning games in the NFL. And we simply don’t know yet, when it comes to Nate.
I do think, however, that the clips you’ve posted speak more to social discomfort born of a learning disability than they do to stupidity, and I say this as somebody who has a couple of learning-disabled friends.
A lot of learning-disabled people present as stupid when put into a new and uncomfortable environment. That doesn’t mean they are stupid – and I don’t think, based on my experience with learning-disabled folks, that those clips argue for “stupidity” especially given that we know he’s diagnosed as learning-disabled.
The is latest clip you’ve posted doesn’t suggest in any way that he’s stupid to me. He just says “uh” a lot, which suggests poor public speaking habits more than anything else. The earlier clip you posted, on the other hand, looks EXACTLY to me like a learning-disabled person’s standard responses. They’re actually trained to stop, process, and THEN answer. Perhaps your lack of experience with learning-disabled people is the issue here.
Another possibility is that he’s someone who’s just not used to having a microphone put in his face, a camera on him. I’ve been behind the camera a lot, and I have to tell you straight out: a lot of people simply get uncomfortable with a camera on them, and become stilted, slow, and unnatural – so it’s going to take more than somebody being a little off in front of the camera for me to declare him stupid.
Lastly, I just want to reiterate that, your desire to have an eloquent face-of-the-franchise quarterback aside, I think you have failed to make any logical connection between academic smarts, the ability to be eloquent when on camera, and the ability to win football games as a QB. You have asserted that you have to be smart to be a successful QB several times, but you haven’t actually presented any evidence to support that assertion.
All else being equal, I’d prefer an articulate quaterback, too. But all else is never equal, and the ability to play the QB position effectively is far more important to me – and I think it should be to you, too.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 10, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhere in there
you’ve interpreted what I am saying as an association between a learning disablity and intellegence. Not once have I related the two…
I have known several people that had some sort of disability but were intellegent. One of my favorite teachers in high school had dyslexia but he was a very intellegent man. I think to a certain degree a QB on the NFL should at the very least be able to formulate a semi-funtional sentence.
Blaming his lack of intelligence with the answers he provided in that interview on social discomfort is totally innaccurate.
You do have some valid points in sprinkled throughout your rambling there but in this scenario they aren’t relevant.
I went back and watched some old footage on youtube of a game that Brett Favre went in to in place of an injured Don Majkowski to throw a game winning TD. In retrospect and in looking at that film of the post game interview, Nate Davis makes Favre look like a genius. That happened in 1992 when Favre was very inexperienced in interviews and everything else. I think it may have very well been his first one and he handled himself quite well.
I knew that some jackal (like yourself) would try and rip apart my point but thats exactly what I see it as. You are trying to dismantle it with theory rather than truth. Like I said, I’m not worried about what you think and I could care less because you’re nobody to me. My opinion will stay the same in regards to his intellegence. Intellegence has an impact on how one plays and prepares for the game…If you’re missing that element you’re missing a major peice of the puzzle.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you’ve interpreted what I am saying as an association between a learning disablity and intellegence.
No, he simply expressed his opinion that you are misinterpreting the manifestations of Davis’ learning disability as manifestations of stupidity. He’s not saying that you think the disability makes Davis stupid.
After that you just kind of ramble, toss a somewhat benign insult, ramble some more, throw out another somewhat benign insult, abjectly dismiss perfectly valid points for no other reason than that they disagree with your stated opinion, and throw out more somewhat benign insults. Not really a discussion anymore. Mostly you just respectfully telling him to screw off.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 10, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The conversation
took place throughout a couple of different threads… I already stated one time previous to this that the conversation was not heading in a constructive direction and politely suggested so. He responded to something that I responded to Fooch about as you have probably read. That may be why you’re picking up on some of the “benign” comments if thats what you’d like to label them as.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Could NOT care less. Haven’t we been over this?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 10, 2009 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's less impactful
the way I said it, but it still gets the message across I’m pretty sure for most people.
Yes… could NOT care less = zero
And yes… could care less = some
But you’re really gonna pull the technicality card on grammar here? I will be more careful next time since I know that it gets under your skin so much
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And I hope you don’t take that as a benign insult… I just wasn’t in the right state of mind to be getting corrected on grammar…. there are several people throughout the course of a single day on NN and other boards similar that make grammatical errors…so I feel like you kind of just singled me out there
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not insulted. By and large, I try to stay away from grammar policing. The could care / could not care thing really befuddles me, though, to the point where I can’t understand why anybody with a brain would say it the wrong way. Which is why I bring it up over and over again.
And that’s not an insult to you. Clearly plenty of people with brains use the phrase incorrectly. I just don’t know why they would.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 10, 2009 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/couldcare.html
I guess you could blame the hippies…thats about when the phrase got twisted from its origin. And since my parents grew up in the 60’s maybe that’s why I get it wrong from time to time. I know for a fact that I have used it in correct form previous to this. Sometimes it just comes out that way. I think generally when I am speaking and not typing I say “couldn’t” not exactly “could not” but same thing
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Under normal circumstances I’d be perfectly inclined to jump on the side of idiom and colloquialism and the concept of the living language (though I venerate the history of language at the same time), but in the case of this one particular phrase I just don’t know how I can defend it.
I don’t blame anybody for saying “could care less.” I do get vaguely bothered by it, but it’s so unbelievably widespread that I just accept that people are going to say it – even some people who do actively know the difference. All I can do is occasionally go “hey, ummm… you know that doesn’t mean that, right?”
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 10, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well this is the 2nd time that you have pointed it out to me…
I’ll tell ya… I probably will never say it incorrectly again because of that. Definitely will be conciencous of it from here on. Maybe you’re making a small difference whether you know it or not.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can only hope. :P
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 10, 2009 7:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It gets the message across because everybody gets it wrong uniformly, but it doesn’t actually mean anything.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 10, 2009 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Similarly, it’s a mistake to confuse academic smarts with athletic smarts. Steve Young is a person who has both … Brett Farve has athletic smarts, but academic ones?
FYI
Favre earned a teaching degree from the University of Southern Mississippi. So I wouldn’t exactly say he wasn’t academically smart. Just because he talks with a thick southern accent does not equal that he’s unintelligent scholastically.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
University of Southern Mississippi
Color me unimpressed.
Just because he talks with a thick southern accent does not equal that he’s unintelligent scholastically.
This is pretty ripe, coming from the guy who’s judging Nate Davis by how he handled a press conference.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 10, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference
but if you want to go on thinking that Davis has potential to be the face of the franchise then you’re certainly entitled to think so. My perception of him is slightly different and I’ll just leave it at that since this conversation is clearly not going to go anywhere constructive.
Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't get on him for that
Lots of things can cause you to slip up that way. My wife has multiple sclerosis and part of that disease causes issues with cognitive thinking. She tends to get words mixed up really badly, but she’s a very smart woman. Two college degrees with a 4.0 average.
by smileyman on Nov 9, 2009 11:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone is different
Your wife may very well be educated and smart but Nate Davis doesn’t have MS and only has a learning disability. Beyond that he is stupid… I hate that the Niners drafted him. There were plenty of other players we could have drafted and just kept Damon Huard as the #3
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
seriously?
Given that he was a 5th round pick have you seen what he did in college? He struggled his senior season, but at the beginning of the year he was being projected fairly high. Obviously that doesn’t mean anything in the end, but to say you hate the pick as a 5th round pick because he might not be the smartest guy?
The 49ers brought him in for an interview and had him work with QB coach Mike Johnson to see how he handled learning and reading a playbook. He struggles in reading b/c of the dyslexia, but he works very well with images as one would see in any football playbook.
As long as he can understand the playbook and make NFL caliber decisions and throws, I could care less about how smart (or not smart) people think he is. You’d really rather Damon Huard than somebody with actual upside? I can’t even comprehend that.
by Fooch on Nov 10, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
Damon Huard ALL DAY over Nate Davis… evidently you haven’t heard him speak enough to know he’d be an embarrassment if he was in the spotlight. If he lacks intellect then its a major fail waiting to happen. Intellect and Skills are the two key ingredients it takes to be a franchise QB in today’s NFL.
He could have been the 1st pick in the 1st round and I’d still have the same opinion. It doesn’t matter where he was drafted.
And I don’t know that he understands the playbook nor do any of us know that. Nor do any of us know if he ever will. I cannot stand that we even drafted him. I was upset when it happened and am still upset. Even more so now that all of these people are acting like he’s the savior of the franchise cause he was able to make a couple passes against a bunch of nobody’s. It makes me sick to my stomach.
I can’t even comprehend how anyone would come to his defense.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
intellect is a key ingredient?
Have you seen some of the brainiacs playing in the NFL today? You’re saying every franchise QB out there has a great intellect?
At this point I don’t think I’m going to continue in this discussion. When you draw such a firm line in the sand, I don’t think we can really have a productive conversation.
by Fooch on Nov 10, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Matt Ryan, Kurt Warner, etc… those guys are brainiacs…those guys are the types of players that you want running a team. Why? Because they all have those 2 key ingredients. I am saying that all the great ones have intellect, yes…that is what I am saying. You give me 2 good examples of QB’s who are literally dumb that are successful…or of that caliber of the examples I just gave. When we’re talking about “franchise QB’s”…absolutely it’s necessary.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
literally dumb
So Nate Davis says one stupid thing (nobody ever even indicated whether he was just being a smart-aleck or something) and he’s “literally dumb” ?
by Fooch on Nov 10, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you watch the interview?
He was not being sarcastic. I think Robinsons look is very telling and revealing of Davis’ intellectual capacity. Possibly even suggestive that it is common to expect such an inarticulate response from him.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here
watch it yourself…. it’s 5:53 in to the feed.
http://www.49ers.com/media-gallery/videos/Robinson-Report-Know-Your-Coach/08ee4d8a-3ba0-4136-937d-93e5274b5c73
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I've watched it before
And I’m just a little more willing to show some patience and give him a chance I guess.
by Fooch on Nov 10, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess in my mind
when I think of franchise QB, Nate Davis doesn’t fit in that equation.
If you think of all of the greats…and truly analyze it… you’ll realize that I’m not blowing smoke when I say it takes intellegence on top of skills to be great.
You’re an intelligent guy Fooch and I am sure that after 30 seconds of talking to certain people you realize that God did not exactly bless them upstairs. Thats the same impression I get of Davis in that interview and it has zero to do with his disability and more to do with him as an individual. If we’re talking about faces of the franchise, I cannot lead myself to beleive that Davis will be that for the 49ers. And there is nothing to suggest that he will be.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Q&A
Did you see what bignerd mentioned about the video? Davis got the first question wrong, but then apparently was being fed the answers because he got the Pro Bowl and Defensive player of the year awards correct, even though the Pro Bowl answer wasn’t logical given his career answer. Does that change things at all?
by Fooch on Nov 10, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Morgan
gave him the 3rd anwer…it said nothing about the 2nd answer…bignerd is obviously assuming that the 2nd was as well. And if Morgan is having to feed him answers…umm…that does not work in Davis’ favor exactly
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Think of all the greats:
Joe Namath: Dumb.
Dan Marino: Dumb.
Joe Montana: Probably average.
Brett Farve: Probably not average.
Should I go on?
by Ronaldinho on Nov 10, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa
Dumb huh? Proof? Montana and Favre below average? Wow you’re really making a case there with all the evidence you have to back up your statements.
Please go on…humor me some more since you seem to have all the insight. Or how bout this…I’ll feed you a name and you can tell me if they’re scholastically stupid or below average or above….. Please.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
players
Well can you prove they’re not “dumb?” For how you’re using specific words it’s entirely too subjective to have any kind of reasonable discussion.
by Fooch on Nov 10, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure
how me having my own opinion and sticking to it is being subjective. You are entitled to yours and I am not trying to force mine on you. By merely stating how I personally feel about a particular player doesn’t mean anyone has to agree, right? I am not saying, “you all better think this or else…”…that would be subjective.
I’m not sure how one is supposed to have a “reasonable” conversation in a disagreement like this one. There’s three possible opinions: Nate’s the savior, I will wait and see to pass judgement, or I don’t think he’s our guy. Am I supposed to agree with everyone else’s opinion to be reasonable or am I entitled to my own?
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 1:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sticking to it when facts...
are not there to support you is the act of an ass. People act like opinions are sacred. They’re not. If they’re based on simple prejudice or incorrect data and you spout them anyway, you put yourself in an awkward position.
by asleepinSF on Nov 10, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not incorrect data. I backed it up so I have no reason to feel awkward. You on the other hand sort of put youself in that situation by adding your two cents (aka opinion) on simple prejudice. Take your own advice.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 9:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you actually read much non-fawning coverage of any of those guys?
by Ronaldinho on Nov 10, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In what regard? There’s a broad variety of ways that I could answer that question.
Do you care to be more specific? Or shall I just answer how ever I feel?
I mean its pretty safe to assume that anyone in the spotlight will be exposed in one light or another. So…there’s going to be those who oppose and those who favor… Thats a “take your pick on who’s side you’re going to be on” kind of argument that you’re presenting.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You hate that he is stupid?
What kind of a man makes that kind of a statement? A stupid and very insensitive one.
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Nov 10, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You have the latter part correct… I am not here to fluff up Nate Davis that’s for sure.
by Drew K on Nov 10, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In general I'd say that I like dummies about as much as the Klan likes blacks...
but I don’t let that get in the way of winning football. Dexter Manley couldn’t read, but he could get double digit sacks every season. Were he coming out of college today, I’d endorse drafting him. You ignored Marino’s Wonderlic score. You do know what that is, right? Reasonably objective proof that he’s way less than brilliant intellectually, for one thing. Yet, he was one of the best QBs of the last 25 years. There’s also Terry Bradshaw. HOF QB. Most people that have met him think he’s a dolt, if watching him on TV alone couldn’t tell you that.
by asleepinSF on Nov 10, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not jumping on the Drew K bandwagon but...
A guy whose sole responsibility is to either plug a gap or run around someone, is far from a QB who is supposed to read the defense and know what they are going to do before they do it. Or know that it’s a blitz, where it is coming from, and the hot routes his receivers are going to run. Or for instance, which way his receiver is going to break based on the safety. QB’s DO need intelligence. Bradshaw was a good QB in a different time. I don’t believe he needed the smarts to succeed now. As for Marino…He threw for a lot of TD’s and yards, but did he make the right decisions, was his team consistently going to the SB? Even if you give Marino the benefit of the doubt, you have named the exception, not the rule. I’m not saying Davis isn’t smart, or couldn’t handle himself in the NFL. But let’s see a little more before we announce him as our next Franchise QB. Does a QB need to process information quickly, does he need to know the defensive alignments? YES. Can Nate do that? Possibly. Dyslexia isn’t a lack of smarts, it just means he learns it differently than you and I. Let’s just slow our roll here a little. Davis must prove himself to me before he is our savior. If it were me, I’m grabbing a QB in 1st round because until we have our Franchise QB, I’m drafting one….and for me, Davis isn’t the one.
by hudd07 on Nov 10, 2009 7:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't argue that QBs don't need intelligence...
And I really haven’t been. What I would argue, though, is that it there are different facets of intelligence, and the ones that make you speak well or pass calculus often don’t have all that much bearing on the parts of intelligence that allow you to throw a ball so perfectly that it becomes a completion even though you threw into double coverage, or to recognize a defense and alter a play appropriately at the line. Otherwise, Harvard would be the cradle of quarterbacks.
by asleepinSF on Nov 12, 2009 9:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I don't think you can put Miami's success or lack thereof
entirely on Marino. His teams often suffered from subpar running and defense. He didn’t do the drafting or coordinate the D. Marino got his yards, and kept a pretty good interception to TD ratio, which is about all you can ask of a QB. Except, of course for his last couple of years, when his neck was turning into a mass of bone spurs, and his arm strength and accuracy dropped off. At that point, he was doing things that hurt Miami’s chances.
by asleepinSF on Nov 12, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Give the coach some room to breathe
a few years.
Relax.
Building a team takes time.
by zacksf on Nov 9, 2009 5:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
WELL SAID MY FRIEND !!
Looks like there is a 49er fan out there that kinows what is really going on. Everyone says the coaches always know whats best for the team. Well if that is true, then how come know one ever saw how talented Shaun Hill really is,and every team left him on the bench. Physicall skill help a little, but Mental skills are everything in the NFL. Alex Smith had one of the best Offensive lines in college. That is why he did so well. The NFL is much faster, and even with a great Offensive line, amazing defenders will find a way to sack the Quartback eventually. That is why you need someone who is smart more than fast and strong. DID ANYONE KNOW THAT SHAUN HILL BROKE THE ALLTIME COMPLETION RECORD FOR A STARTING QB IN THE NFL ? HE MAKES AMAZING DECISIONS. ALEX SMITH MAKES CONTINIOUS SUPER BAD DECISIONS.
by KORY SHEETS WAS OUR FUTURE on Nov 9, 2009 9:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Thank for pulling out the Pookie pic
Ahh, the 90’s.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
by SpurredOn on Nov 9, 2009 10:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Love Pookie ...
… right, never mind the 49ers, I’m off to listen to Johnny Gill …
"This could be another Very Special Team" ... Superbowl winning Niners lineman Dan Audick ...
by LondonNiner on Nov 10, 2009 12:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha..
Good knowledge.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
by SpurredOn on Nov 10, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You've gotta be a New Jack hustler
"This could be another Very Special Team" ... Superbowl winning Niners lineman Dan Audick ...
by LondonNiner on Nov 10, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So that's your excuse
for your poorly chosen comments?
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Nov 10, 2009 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Excessively negative people,
always know way too much, which is a polite way of saying, "you’re a wind bag!"
by CorneliusJ on Nov 9, 2009 10:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
X-POST!!!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 10, 2009 9:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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