The Emergence of Dashon Goldson
by Kaizre on Dec 14, 2009 10:47 PM PST
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Greetings Niners Nation, I've been a reader and commenter for a while now, and I give you my first fan post (so please don't bash me too hard ;) ).
This is a two part fan post. One part a little smack talk, the other some speculation. I've been a proponent of Goldson's hitting power for some time now, and I do believe there were more than a couple nay sayers when I tried to express this opinion some months back. Well, after a 2 FF game, where they at?
Nah, but on to some serious discussion. As I said, I've been a fan for some time of Goldon's hitting, and I think after this game, and the last few, we can all come to the general consensus that he packs a bit of a punch. This is always a refreshing thing to see in a FS, especially having a SS like Lewis, with some polishing this can be a very punishing secondary. However, I think it's plain to see that Goldson's cover skills are raw, and the ball hawking skills touted so loudly in training camps have attributed to 3 INTs on the year. Not horrible, but nothing to write home about.
Tonight was a good night for Goldson, I don't think it's a stretch at all to call him the defensive player of the game with 6 TKLs, 2 FFs, and 1 INT. However, in looking at the Niners as a whole I still see the two biggest needs in the offseason as Offensive Line, and Secondary. After tonight though, I feel Goldson deserves a bit more of a look then maybe some people, myself included, have believed. I'm unfamiliar with the upcoming draft class, I don't watch college ball, so until draft time comes around and I get myself on a draft guide I'm more or less clueless. But, it seems to me that taking into account Goldson's skill sets he would be more suited as a SS. I'm a huge fan of Michael Lewis, I love the way he plays the game, but at some point you have to look at what's better for the long haul, and Lewis isn't getting any younger. Goldson can play the run, jar balls loose, given some time become more adept at making the interception, and his mediocre skills at covering the deep ball will be less of a liability. I think the best course of action in the offseason would be to move Goldson, and pick up a wicked fast FS that can seal of the back end. What does Niners Nation think?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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FINALLY GOLDSON HAD A GOOD GAME
I still think he would be better at SS, simply because his zone defense is better than Lewis, hence Roman on passing downs. Whatever it takes to not see Roman on the field will work for me. Can Goldson be that Palomalu type at SS? I think he did very well today and the corners did eh, Spencer is our definite number 1, Fitz and Boldin wee shut down today, although I think it was Warner stinking it up.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
A Palomalu type
That’s intriguing, I hadn’t thought of that. I suppose he has enough speed, can make the hit, and has shown some ball hawking potential.
More important, the emergence of Ahmad Brooks.
The last 2 games;
4 sacks.
3 forced fumble
He has provided constant pressure from his Nickle DE position. I am now very excited about this guy and opposing OC’s cannot afford to overlook him.
I was "Deific16"
The cake is a lie.
by Sultan of Seitan on Dec 14, 2009 11:30 PM PST reply actions
Imagine this
if Brooks continues to develop it’s conceivable he could eventually see some time in base defense too and help with the run and rush from the OLB spot too. If the guy could be coached to take on more responsibilities it would be pimp to have him and Willis on the field as LB’s.
Why is it that no one is giving credit to the coaching staff as often as they give the criticism?
The 49ers have let players they think will help get time in the system before throwing them in ala Brooks and Smith. Two questions coming in was the OL which is still horrible and the pass rush which has 34 sacks this season. Here’s one to the coaching staff.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
I sometimes wonder
if actually this is very bad team which is made average by great coaching. I mean, we were predicted to have a terrible defense (remember the pass rush in the pre-season?) and it’s been a top 5/6 defense. The O is about where you’d expect it to be, but the OL totally imploded (perhaps that is somewhat on the coaches though).
Say what you want about Raye but he took a WRETCHED Shuan Hill offense from the beginning of the season and with additions of Smith (?!?!) and Crabtree (a rookie with no training camp time) made it… merely bad.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
were you saying I wasn't giving them credit?
Cause I was saying I think that the staff CAN coach Brooks into being a dynamic player on every down…if HE has the aptitude to learn those things.
Pretty sure you knew that’s what I was saying though…right?
I was impressed by Goldson as well
I like the idea of moving him over to SS if the Niners can find a good ball-hawking center fielder type to take over the FS spot. The prevalence of cover 2 schemes is really accentuating the need for two safeties who can cover. Especially when we have a defense that has shown the ability to stop the run primarily with the front 7.
Just looked up the stats
Goldson is second on the team in tackles at 84. He leads the team in interceptions. He ties Patrick Willis with forced fumbles.
He’s been playing very well and mostly under the radar too.
Brooks has been killing it since he’s gotten a chance to play. He ties P. Willis and Goldson with fumbles at 3, and has 5 sacks. Lawson leads the team with 5.5
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Goldson's stats aren't going to show missed tackles though
he has missed some really big ones too. That’s his biggest problem is technique. I like the strip, the helmet forced fumble, all of that. But he’s got to pick his spots and do that when he’s got help. Sometimes he goes for the “stick” and is on an island…when he misses those it’s usually a big play.
Now, that all being said, I love the kid and hope he’s in our defensive backfield for a long time to come. I think another camp will help dramatically and yes, a move to SS would benefit him.
Goldson's been playing good all year
ya ya he has missed a couple tackles but that’sok with me if he’s trying to make big plays and force fumbles and make receivers drop the ball. Him and Berry are going to be deadly in the backfield… jk jk but really
I think he gave up too many pass plays deep to say that.
However he is a first year player at the position.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
Secondary needs an upgrade at nickel safety and perhaps a fast fourth corner
But the main guys are fine. I never understood all the ripping on the secondary. Yeah, they struggled vs Atlanta and at GB. But they held the AZ receivers in check twice, AJ of Houston and Manning. They’re quite sound and doing it without a consistent pass rush. So many assumed they’d get burned tonight but that wasn’t going to happen.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
We had effective pressure too
which made the coverage easier. Brooks has been a monster in the pass rush.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Tonight, yes
But throughout the season, not so much.
Spencer is solid, technique sound and has good size. he just doesn’t get many picks. Brown has speed but is still inexperienced. We all know Clements. Lewis is a solid but aging SS. Goldson is on the rise and has excellent speed and size for a FS. Give these guys a consistent pass rush and they’ll all have more INTs and thus media hype.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Brooks hasn't played much this season
Since he’s been in regular rotation he’s really turned it on. He had an incredible game against Seattle too.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Yeah, it's good to see him finally getting on the same page with the coaches
I see lots of potential in Brooks, but I also like Lawson and Haralson, so I like this idea of a rotation and hope we continue in it.
I'm hopeful with him
And I think his coming in on 3rd down keep Manny fresh on the early downs. But I want to see it for the rest of the season, especially against an opponent like Philly in their stadium.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Holy Sh$$$$
IMO the pass defense has gotten lucky with dropped passes and miscues against the Cards, Colts, and Vikes that I remember. A lot of the time there are guys wide open and the QB just didn’t make the throw. 210 yards to Roddy white? That is embarrasing as well as the 26th to 27th ranked pass defense and the defense is 7th ir 8th in sacks and are gettig good pressure. Lewis is old and we need to replace him. Goldson is truely what I would love to have as a SS, and I think the postion would fit his skill set better. Subbing out your SS (Lewis) and briging in Roman gives away what we are doing on defense, at least the opposing offense knows one player that won’t play the blitz and probably won’t cover deep becasuse he isn’t any good at it. As often as possible we need to keep the same personnel on the field, and becoe totally unpredictable.
I know there is a lot of over exagerration when I say the DB’s suck, but IMO I think the Niners need a coverae linebacker (Bullock would be awesome) and a coverage FS, and move Goldson to the SS because I would love to see him used like Troy P. Imagine him getting a good hit on a QB!!!
Lights out.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
Corners are fine we will need to start adding youth though
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
Yea I’m pleased that Goldson, Franklin, and Brooks all look like theyll be valuable pieces of the D for (hopefully) the next several years. The emergence of three promising youngish player is especially encouraging considering those positions were also probably the 3 biggest question marks on the defensive side before the season.
Thing A
Goldson definitely showed his potential today. However, he did still miss a couple tackles. He needs to improve his tackling technique. I think next year he’d be a great strong safety.
I was initially a supporter of the Clements to safety move, but I’ve grown more skeptical. Clements is a press coverage corner who occasionally gets beat on the deep ball. The last thing you want is a safety who gets beat on the deep ball, and Nate’s skill set really is geared towards the CB position. With help from a FS who’s strength is in coverage he could play up to his potential.
Brooks is amazing. if he can improve in coverage and become an every down linebacker we may not need to draft a pass rusher next year.
49ers secondary next year:
CBs: clements, spencer, brown, bly?
SS: Dashon Goldson
FS: Atogwe? trade for Kerry Rhodes? Draft berry, earl thomas or somone in the 2nd or 3rd round?
last week there would have been even more question marks in there.
by hellaninersfan on Dec 15, 2009 12:48 AM PST reply actions
this
funny I said a lot of this above before I read this! The only thing about having Nate and Shawntae in at the same time is they’re both press guys. We HAVE to have a speed cover guy at FS to help over the top. That’s why FS is still a big need.
We also have to consider the possibility that Goldson [i]could[/i] grow into his FS role and be quite competent there…but the off-season and TC will tell a lot about that.
yeah, i agree.
It would be ideal to have someone who is fast and great in deep one-on-one coverage to play opposite corner to Shawntae Spencer.
we just need options
if we’re playing a speed guy who is faster than he is strong…we need a speed cover guy on him. when we play the physical guys, Spencer and Nate are both great in press. I think Brown is supposed to be our speed corner but he has a lot to learn
Defense
To me Goldson seems to be more suited for SS. He likes the big hits and his coverage is so-so. So if during the draft Eric Berry falls to the Niners, start him at FS, because he showed some amazing coverage in college, move Goldson to SS, and have Michael Lewis play out his career as a dime/nickel DB and primary backup to both safety positions. Then the Niners can cut Roman, who seems to have a good game once in a while to justify his position on the team.
I hope we're lucky enough to get Berry
Personally I like the idea of just two safeties, a left and right. With Berry added in either could play up or back and cover lots of ground. Seems like we would be able to disguise coverages more. Plus, Goldson would look better because Berry can cover a whole lot more ground than Lewis. Goldson is still young and learning but the team seems satisfied with his dedication and development.
I don’t think Lewis will hold enough value to keep around as a backup. Can’t see him playing much on special teams. I like the guy but it may be time to let him go.
Atogwe and another prospect I like, Morgan Burnett, would add flexibility to the secondary.
… Still waiting to see what Reggie Smith can do back there as well.
by abasketballfan on Dec 15, 2009 6:22 AM PST up reply actions
Taylor mays is better than blueberry
GeT Ya Popcorn ReadY
The Last Names Ever, First Names Greatest.
by Italian King on Dec 16, 2009 8:36 AM PST up reply actions
are you for real?
mays’ signature move is where he dives at a guy and misses. Berry never does that.
by hellaninersfan on Dec 16, 2009 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
a little small
but he does come down in nickel to play LB, though usually to cover the underneath routes in passing downs.
In a Dollar scheme with 3 safeties he'd be great in run support.
He’d be good to keep around for depth. I think R Smith has the speed we need at FS, and I wouldn’tmind seeing Goldson playing SS and Smith playing FS.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
pass rush
I know I have brought this up many times, but it’s amazing how much better the secondary looks with the QB not having the time to sit back and eat a sandwich waiting for the WR to get open. The key is forcing the QB to make mistakes in an attempt to save his backside. If the pass rush especially Brooks can keep this up, the niners really have something.
this is especially true in press coverage
because it’s timing that get’s thrown off at the line…but if you give them time to get back into the route before the QB has to get rid of it…you can get beat deep. We have two guys (when Clements is healthy) that like to play up close on receivers…so yes…a pass rush and safeties are imperative for our style of coverage.
It was also good to have good coverage adn get those sacks as well.
If you build your team solely to get to the Qb quickly your DB’s will look like the Steelers this season, inept. These guys were said to be good corners but they are merely a mirage of a good SCHEME. I would rather have players that could do their job in case the SCHEME has a better play called against it.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
I'd hate to be a negative nancy
But im not sold on Goldson or the pass rush. They dominated the Cardinals in week 1 as well. Goldson is no slouch, and the guy can make some plays. He hits like a truck and is a good presence in the secondary because of his hitting, but i think hes in more of a SS mold then FS. Now M. Lewis still has years in him, but i dont think he holds his starting spot for more then another year. Keep safety at the top of the drafting list, and groom Goldson for SS while letting Lewis use what hes got left in the tank (as i respect the guy, and think he deserves to play) The rookie doesnt have to start right away this way, and if he turns out to be a complete stud then he can be used in rotation much like Roman is now.
I still think a pass rusher should be drafted with a early to mid round pick, wether at D-line or OLB.
in a 3-4
it usually has to be an OLB, and we already have 3 good ones.
I am not saying I would ignore a Lawrence Taylor or Wilbur Marshall, but any OLB you might draft would have to compete with Brooks, Haralson and Lawson for playing time. They are all 25 years old and probably improving for the next few years.
Goldson
is starting to show something and i think he just might have that spot covered for a couple of years barring injurie, i was impressed with that interception tarell brown almost knocked it out his hands, he looked better than our recievers on that play, also alot of credit is not being given to greg manusky he just might be a candidate for a coaching job soon.
"Im not a numbers guy, im a Football player"
-M.Crabtree
Goldson and Clements
I think we should draft a corner in round 1 and another in round 3 or 4 and move Clements to safety with Goldson. Can you imagine having Joe Haden, Tarell Brown, Javier Arenas, Nate Clements, and Dashon Goldson on the field at the same time?
Can you say top 10 defense anyone? lol
49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha
by 49erSalvatrucha on Dec 15, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
the safeties in this draft are better than the corners, and clements wouldn’t make a good free safety. His play at corner wouldn’t be worth what we’re paying him, but his play at safety definitely wouldn’t.
by hellaninersfan on Dec 15, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
He would not make a good FS IMO.
He sets the edge in the run game which forces team to pass, you can’t lose that element. I would also bring back Bly to teach what he can to any young corner we bring in.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
Yup
I like Bly, not for an ever down player but he fills in good and he’s a great leader. Also very true that he can teach the young guys some technique.
I am all for getting a corner like Haden in the 1st round,
but i think Spencer is better than Brown at this point.
Bly is better than Brown
He doesn’t have the speed but he plays angles, VETERAN.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
I think we need to look at what we have and build off of it.
We can stop the run and we can’t stop the screen on defense we need a FS that can man cover if need be and a SS that can man cover and I think GOldson is the guy. We also need a ILB that can cover, put 20 lbs on Manny or draft a coverage ILB or pick up Bullock. On offense we need a good route runing WR with more size than Crabs and we also need a shifty speed back to go with Coffee and Fore.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
We need another DE opposite Smith. Soap is cool in run D but the pass rush seems one sided adn pressure from a DE will help the putside rush of Lawson.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
Well, a DT really
I don’t like calling 3-4 outside linemen DE’s. They are essentially tackles and have massive size. Likely anyone coming from the college ranks would be a DT in their 4-3.
I don't see much action happening at DE
Balmer will be in his 3rd year next year and often that’s when players emerge, especially ones that come in a bit raw like Balmer. We’re starting to see McDonald get more playing time as well. Possibly because he’s getting healthier from surgery.
by abasketballfan on Dec 15, 2009 9:25 PM PST up reply actions
I hear a lot of people talk about Pass rush and the OLB's not doing their job.
It seems to me that in the Nickel Franklin gets no pressure and nothing comes from the side opposite of Smith. It’s are biggest glaring weakness when concerning the pass rush. 3rd and Long and we are in the nickel, we give up way too many first downs simply because the PR isn’t there. Brooks is great off the edge but better standing than in a 3 point stance and that’s why I say we need a PR DE. When Balmer played he looked more like a 4-3 DT than a 4-3 DE, but in any case he got absolutely no pressure.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
Franklin doesn't play in the nickel
It’s usually Haralson, McDonald, Smith and Brooks/Lawson.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
With McDonald playing the middle
I noticed last night when we werent sending the rush and he was in, that he was getting quadruple teamed in some cases. I felt bad for him but he drew alot of attention.
Tim Tebow = 1,432,219 season tickets next year. Who wouldn't pick him in the 1st round with those projections?
That is cool. Good for him.
I didn’t notice that 1st time i saw the game.
That is great! If he can do that, he is doing his job. When he draws attention, Haralson and Brooks meet at the quarterback.
Balmer played mostly in goal line and short yardage defense, before he got injured.
I think he is primarily a run stopper, not a pass rusher.
I know this has been said over and over again...
but pressure in the 3-4 does not come from the defensive ends. It’s almost structurally designed for the DEs to never get sacks. 3-4 Defensive Ends (in particular, the LDE spot that Sopoaga plays) are meant to absorb blockers and maintain a presence at the line of scrimmage. Often times, they are responsible for filling two or even three gaps in run support, and they are the only reason that guys like Patrick Willis and Takeo Spikes are allowed to make free breaks on ballcarriers. When a 3-4 end loses containment (read: rushes too far down the field), then the defense becomes even more exposed than they’d be with 10 seconds of pass protection.
If you have an irresponsible defensive end in the 3-4 who focuses on rushing the passer, then you allow backs to get the edge and expose yourself to QB scrambles, as the NT then becomes the only player between the QB and the linebackers in pass coverage 7-to-10 yards down the field.
I know Soap’s effect on the defense doesn’t show up on paper, but I can assure you that he and Justin Smith are largely responsible for the success of our linebackers and overall run defense.
"It came down like a punt, Coach!" - Josh Morgan
I agree but when you get pressure from the 3-4 it opens up more flexibility for the defense.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
Thats a lot of Needs...
ILD- McClain
FS- Berry
WR- Vincent Jackson
RB- Reggie Bush
DE- ??? 2nd round pick
That’ll due
you forgot
2 guards and a tackle on the OL.
And a shutdown corner to replace the dessicated corpse of Nate Clements.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
2 guards?
One for sure. Chilo does have to play next to Snyder and has shown some flashes. He has had more good plays than Balmer and I think we should be after Morgan and I am thinking top three defense.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
This.
The 49ers really only have to replace Baas. There’s no way they give up Rachal already.
although...
with no CBA Baas is RFA and we can probably keep him cheap. He does well in pulling situations and might be good enough to keep for a bargain. Better than a big first or second round contract perhaps?
Not necessarily.
Baas will still get a raise, even if there is no CBA. He was originally the top pick in the second round, so I’d imagine his contract (though only one-year long) will probably be almost as big as a new mid-second rounder’s whole contract.
I sure hope the 49ers don’t take a guard in the first round.
Baas
Right now he’s making $666,875. The minimum tender you can offer a RFA is $1.01 million so he’d be almost doubling his salary. I love him in the run game—he’s an excellent pulling blocker.
In fact as a whole I’d say our line is better at zone type blocking than man-to-man blocking.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
I wouldn't be too quick to move Goldson
to strong safety. I can see it either way; it really depends who we draft, etc.
Having a free safety who can hit line a strong safety is a good thing, as long as he can also cover deep and make open field tackles. Getting a strong safety to play with Goldson would probably mean a pretty physical and hard hitting secondary.
He struggles in space covering deep but is good when the field shrinks.
The SS position is played like a FS on a shrunkin’ field. He gets to hit WR’s over the niddle and help more in run support. Work on his angles and wrapping up, send him on some blitzes I think he can be used like Troy P. he is more stout to prevent injuries and he has ball skills when he doesn’t have to worry about the deep man. From the QB to 15 yards I think will be perfect for his skill set.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
One game.
Next week, when he misses 3 tackles and blows coverage to allow a conversion on 3rd-and-14, you can delete this post.
"It came down like a punt, Coach!" - Josh Morgan
Jackson is going to murder us.
I am sure us not drafting him is on his mind. He was prob a Niner fan all his life.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
Blk Sand Ninja-
He went to Berkeley, but he was a SoCal kid.
I doubt he has 49ers roots.
"It came down like a punt, Coach!" - Josh Morgan
True impact safeties are incredibly rare
I think it will be very hard to get an obvious upgrade to Goldson in the draft. Furthermore, this is his first season playing this position, so there’s very little reason to think that he’s as good as he’s going to get.
Obviously, if you can get a Polumalu-type player, you do it … but those guys are really rare. There might be two safeties who drastically change the nature of their defense in the NFL right now: Polumalu and Bob Sanders.
Only 25 players in the NFL have more INTs than Goldson. In his career, Troy Polamalu has only had more than 3 INTs twice, and Bob Sanders never has.
I think a little patience with Goldson is in order. I’m not suggesting that he’ll ever be as good as those guys, but rather, he’s a young, improving player … let’s give him some time before we rush him out the door.
True impact safeties...
… are indeed rare, but they also seem even harder to project. I’m not saying Berry ISN’T or CAN’T be that kind of player, but it’s hard to project him with any certainty that he’ll be that player, no?
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