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Shotgun Wedding: Alex Smith Meets the Offense of His Dreams

AUTHOR'S NOTE: The time I usually devote to team and players stats was instead devoted last week to this very special article I've put together with the help of Aaron Schatz from Football Outsiders (FO). He provided the individual stats for Alex Smith and Shaun Hill, and I did the writing, but we're both in general agreement about what the stats say as they relate to Smith and the shotgun. If you want to show your appreciation for Aaron's entirely unobligated attention to the whims of our blog, and have an interest in accessing FO's statistical database for yourself, head over to his site and get the premium membership. Obviously, I highly recommend it.

Besides whether or not Mike Nolan was going to make it through an entire press conference without saying, "look it," the fate of Alex Smith has been the hottest topic of Niner debate over the past 5 years. I don't need to recap all the gory details, but suffice it to say that he's a polarizing figure among Niner fans. My goal for this post is not to settle the debate. Rather, what I'd like to do here is answer a Dennis-Green-esque question about Smith: Is he who we thought he was?

Whether you love him or hate him, and whether you think he's the 49ers' "QB of the future" or not, there's no denying that what we've seen from Smith this season constitutes a remarkable turnaround for a guy who, just 9 months ago, was in serious danger of being released. In this post, my intention is to show - as crisply and clearly as possible - what the statistics say about the reason(s) for his resurrection. I know the guy's already married and all, but, as you'll see, this season has been something of a shotgun wedding for Smith.

A ROCKY RELATIONSHIP

There's really no mistaking the fact that Smith's career has been seriously hampered by injury. Indeed, he's only had 2 seasons in which he was actually healthy: 2006 and 2009. So, the first clue about the reason for his renaissance is that he's actually healthy. To drive the point home, here's a table showing the 49ers' Pass OFF DVOA for games since 2005 that Smith did not play, games he played while coming off of an injury, and games he played while totally healthy (I've excluded 5 games in which multiple QBs played):

Game Type

G

Avg Pass OFF Game DVOA

Smith healthy

25

-5.2%

Smith coming off injury

8

-63.3%

Smith did not play

37

-22.9%

As you can see from this table, the 49ers' pass OFF has been considerably better in games when Smith is healthy when compared to games in which he didn't play or played coming off of an injury. What's most interesting to me is that, despite the ridiculously small sample size for "Smith coming off injury," the 58.1% difference is statistically significant within 95% certainty. In other words, it's beyond a reasonable statistical doubt that the Niners' OFF plays better when Smith is healthy.

After the jump, I'll show why health is just one of many things that are the same between 2006 and 2009, and therefore can't explain why Smith is better in 2009 than 2006. And, of course, I'll offer my suggestion for what CAN explain it (See story title)...

Star-divide

Of course, not all "Smith healthy" games are created equally. For instance, 16 of these 25 games occurred in 2006, 3 occurred in 2007, and 6 have occurred in 2009. Each of these seasons was qualitatively different for various reasons:

  1. Different offensive coordinators (OCs)
  2. Different offensive lines (OLs)
  3. Different receiving corps

So, to further isolate the reason(s) for Smith's renaissance, we need to see if any of these qualitative differences have exhibited any quantitative (i.e., statistical) difference to support the theory that they are a meaningful contributor to Smith's turnaround this season. Again, remember that we're comparing "healthy Alex" to "healthy Alex" here so that we partial out health as a factor.

First, the OCs. It's conventional wisdom around NinerLand that Norv Turner turned Smith into a competent NFL QB during the 2006 season. However, as we've just seen, the fact that Smith was healthy in 2006 is as important - or more important - a reason for why he played so well that season. Interestingly enough, the fact of the matter is that Smith - and the Niners' overall Pass OFF in games he started* - is considerably better this season than he was in 2006 (2009 stats are through Week 13, Pass OFF Game DVOAs only include games Smith started):

Season

G

DYAR/P

DVOA

EYds/P

Avg Pass OFF Game DVOA

2009

7

0.68

-0.4%

6.05

1.2%

2006

16

-0.26

-15.3%

4.72

-2.4%

2009 Difference

 

+0.94

+14.9%

+1.33

+3.6%

So, if Smith is better now, how much of it has to do with the fact that Jimmy Raye is his OC rather than Turner. Here's a table comparing the Raye's and Turner's career DVOA stats and rankings prior to being hired by the 49ers:

OC

OFF

Rank

Pass OFF

Rank

Rush OFF

Rank

Turner

-2.2%

16.3

-2.6%

17.3

-2.5%

16.7

Raye

-0.6%

14.3

0.9%

16.0

-2.9%

13.8

Raye Difference

+1.6%

+2.0

+3.5%

+1.3

-0.4%

+2.9

While I'd say that Raye's track record was slightly better when he got hired, I wouldn't say that it necessarily accounts for Alex Smith's improvement above and beyond what we already know about the impact of health. For instance, a 3.5% improvement in Pass OFF DVOA -which is what we'd expect given Raye's and Turner's track records - is hardly a drop in the bucket of Smith's 14.9% individual DVOA improvement. Also, keep in mind that Turner's stats don't include his pre-DVOA-era stint as OC of the early-90s Dallas Cowboys. So, all in all, I'd say the difference in OCs doesn't explain Smith's renaissance.

Onto the OLs. How much of Smith's improvement this season can be attributed to the inherent ability of his OL to block pass rushers? Here's the comparison:

OL

G

ASR

Rank

2009

12

8.6%

27

2006

16

6.8%

18

2009 Difference

 

-1.8%

-9

OK, so actually, the Niners' OL is worse this season when it comes to pass-blocking. Of course, FO's research shows that ASR is more dependent on the QB than people realize, so it may just be the case that the OL's worse ASR this season is a byproduct of Shaun Hill starting at QB for about half the games. As I'll show later on, ASR has, in fact, decreased since Smith took over at QB. However, what we're trying to explain here is whether Smith's renaissance is due to having a better OL in 2009. Suffice it to say that, even acknowledging the OL's ASR improvement with Smith at QB this season, their ASR is still not better than it was in 2006. In other words, even if you account for the fact that a sack-prone Hill was the QB earlier in the year, the OL is still not pass-blocking better this season than in 2006, and so "better OL pass-blocking" can't be the reason for Smith being better this season than he was in 2006.

The third component of potential qualitative differences between Smith's 2006 and 2009 seasons is his supporting cast in the passing game. Here's a table showing the stats for his stable of receivers in 2006 and 2009:

2006

2009

Stat

Bryant

Battle

EJ/VD

Gore

Crabs

Morgan

VD

Gore

Targets

91

86

91

86

56

59

101

57

DYAR/T

0.09

1.23

-0.33

1.53

-0.75

-0.27

1.47

1.23

EYds/T

6.43

8.06

3.74

7.66

4.96

5.93

8.50

6.53

Weighted Avg

DYAR/T = 0.61

EYds/T = 6.43

DYAR/T = 0.59

EYds/T = 6.81

From the averages at the bottom of this table - which are weighted by number of targets - it's pretty clear that Smith's 2009 receiving corps is not much better - if at all - than his 2006 receiving corps. It's true that Vernon Davis is better now than when he split time with Eric Johnson back in 2006, but Frank Gore's receiving stats are worse this season, and both of Smith's starting WRs (Michael Crabtree and Josh Morgan) are worse statistically than their counterparts in 2006 (Antonio Bryant and Arnaz Battle). Therefore, it ends up being a wash.

So, just to recap this section, we've determined a few things. First, Alex Smith is significantly better when he's healthy than when he's not (aka duh!). Second, when comparing "healthy Alex" to "healthy Alex," he's actually better this season than he was in 2006. Third, this improvement is not due to (a) having a better OC, (b) having a better OL, or (c) having a better receiving corps.

I NOW PRONOUNCE YOU QB AND OFFENSE

Based on the above, Alex is having his best season this year, but it's not because of health (i.e., he was worse while healthy in 2006), it's not because of a better OC, it's not because of an improved OL, and it's not because of an improved receiving corps. What the hell is it then?

Well, perhaps there's something about this season in particular that doesn't have to do with any of the factors that I've already ruled out. Oh, I know, it's called "the elephant in the room," aka shotgun OFF. Because the only thing different - in terms of offensive football - between this season and his other healthy season, 2006, is the implementation of a shotgun OFF, the only stat-related** factor left to look at is whether or not the reason for Smith's renaissance is due to him being a better shotgun QB.

Thanks to Aaron Schatz over at Football Outsiders***, I got my hands on Smith's individual shotgun and non-shotgun stats through 11 games:

QB

Plays

% Shotgun

Yards per Pass

IR

DVOA

VOA

Smith in Shotgun

125

60.1%

5.98

2.4%

8.4%

13.5%

Smith Under Center

83

39.9%

5.49

4.8%

-29.6%

-25.3%

Eureka! When Smith is in the shotgun, he averages half-a-yard more per pass, his interception rate (IR) drops by half, and his QB DVOA is 38.0% better! So, yeah, Smith is waaaaay better in the shotgun.

Of course, it could just be that all QBs show this kind of discrepancy between shotgun and non-shotgun performance (after all, FO's research shows as much), and so what I'm attributing to shotgun might actually just be a statistical artifact of that formation being more efficient in general. To solve this, we need to do a little experiment.

If only there was a QB to compare Smith to that's had the same OC, the same OL, and the same supporting cast this season. Oh wait, there is. His name is Shaun Hill. The question at hand, then, is, "Was Shaun Hill waaaaay better in the shotgun this season just like Alex Smith has been?" Again, thanks to Aaron, here's Hill's stats:

QB

Plays

% Shotgun

Yards Per Pass

IR

DVOA

VOA

Hill in Shotgun

89

50.3%

6.03

2.2%

-22.1%

-4.9%

Hill Under Center

88

49.7%

3.86

0.0%

-35.0%

-27.5%

As is plainly obvious, Hill did not enjoy anywhere near the amount of improvement in shotgun that Smith has. Hill's Shotgun GB DVOA was over 30% worse than Smith's is, and his "benefit from the shotgun" difference is over 3 times smaller. Furthermore, as you can see from the differences between DVOA and unadjusted VOA for each QB, Hill's horrible shotgun efficiency actually came against an easier shotgun schedule. In other words, Smith's massive benefit from shotgun as compared to Hill was totally independent of any difference in strength of schedule.****

So, essentially, if we put another QB in practically the exact same situation as Alex Smith in 2009, that QB doesn't benefit from shotgun nearly as much. In other words, all else being equal, Smith has been helped by the shotgun offense waaaaaay more than Hill, who had the same OC, same OL, and same stable of receivers (p.s. In case you're wondering, Bruce stats = Crabtree stats, and Morgan with Smith < Morgan with Hill, so, if anything, Hill had a better supporting cast according to DVOA).

MARRIED WITH CHILDREN

Just to put an exclamation point on things, let me provide some evidence showing that the increase in shotgun with Smith at QB has borne fruit outside of Smith's own renaissance. Here's a table showing some 49er stats as they were after Hill's last full game, and as they are after 12 games:

Statistic

Through 5 Games

Rank

Through 12 Games

Rank

Change

Rank

OFF DVOA

-16.0%

26

-7.1%

21

+8.9%

+5

Pass OFF DVOA

-8.6%

26

1.3%

21

+9.9%

+5

Rush OFF DVOA

-18.0%

27

-5.8%

25

+12.2%

+2

OL ALY

2.86

31

3.23

32

+0.37

-1

OL ASR

10.7%

30

8.6%

27

+2.1%

+3

As you can see, there's been absolute improvement across the board: better overall OFF, better pass OFF, better rush OFF, better run-blocking, and better pass-blocking. In other words, an increase in the use of shotgun underlies both Smith's specific improvement and a general improvement in the 49ers' OFF overall.

BOTTOM LINE

If you put everything I've presented in this post together, you see a clear picture of why Alex Smith appears to be a better QB all of a sudden. The stats-based logic goes something like this:

  1. Smith plays better when healthy, and the 49ers' OFF plays better with a healthy Smith.
  2. Smith has only had 2 healthy seasons with the Niners: 2006 and 2009.
  3. Smith is playing better while healthy in 2009 than he did while healthy in 2006.
  4. Smith does not have a better OC, a better OL, or a better receiving corps than he did in 2006.
  5. Therefore, Smith's improvement in 2009 cannot be attributed to health, OC, OL, or receivers.
  6. Smith plays waaaaay better in the shotgun.
  7. Hill, who had the same OC, OL, and receivers as Smith, and even played an easier shotgun schedule than Smith, did not play waaaaay better in the shotgun.
  8. Smith has taken about 60% of his snaps from shotgun this season.
  9. Therefore, the main reason for Smith's renaissance is more shotgun.

In other words, it's been a shotgun wedding for Smith and the 49ers' OFF.

 

*If you add in the 83.8% Pass OFF Game DVOA for this season's Texans game, the 2009 average increases to 13.0%.

**I realize that there are non-statistical factors that could explain Smith's improvement. He could just be a "smarter QB" now after having basically done nothing but "mental reps" for the past 2 years. He could be "more mature" given the adversity he's had to fight through so far in his career and personal life. However, these are intangibles that no one can - or should - try to measure from my distance. So, I'm limited to tangibles that we can measure statistically. I will say, however, that, if it's truly the case that Smith is "smarter" or "more mature" in 2009, then why do these things not show up when he's under center? Can it really be that moving a few steps forward and putting his hands under his C's rear end makes his brain go soft and turns him into an NFL toddler? I seriously doubt that.  

***DVOA, DYAR, EYds, ALY, & ASR statistics used to produce this article were obtained from Football Outsiders.

****And one more thing, don't think that Hill has been worse than Smith from shotgun simply by virtue of taking a lower percentage of snaps in that generally-more-efficient formation. Remember, I've presented their "per play" stats, i.e., I've already accounted for the difference in shotgun percentage, and, therefore, eliminated it as a confounding variable.

Poll
To which of the following do you attribute Alex Smith being better statistically this season than he was in 2006?
More snaps from shotgun
168 votes
Better offensive coordinator
8 votes
Better offensive line
28 votes
Better receivers
82 votes
More knowledge about playing QB in the NFL
199 votes
More emotional maturity
82 votes

567 votes | Poll has closed

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I find it fascinating...

…that those who advocate adoption of an offense that “fits” our personnel (by which they usually mean runs by Frank Gore out of the I) don’t apply the same logic to Smith’s obvious “fit” with the shotgun. Great stuff, Danny!

by Bigmouth on Dec 16, 2009 10:12 AM PST reply actions  

Im guilty of it....

…and I can say it’s because Frank Gore is a pro bowl player in this league and Alex is not. If I felt that we were doing all we could to get Gore on track, and tried the ‘Alex experiment’ after being eliminated from the playoff picture, I might call the season satisfactory. I do still feel like we could have beaten TEN and SEA2 with a heavier dose of Gore. Frankly (intended), this Defense is built to complement a run heavy offense. I honestly believe we win the division if we didn’t ditch the run offense. And, in fact, playing to your personnell also means playing to your defensive centerpiece…52. When we run, the tempo of the game slows, and ferocious fifty two is better utilized as a result.

  

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

It's Coming Together

Heavy I-formation running was slowly killing the team. Three-and-outs are NOT good for the defense.

What’s happening now is Raye being forced to retool the offensive gameplan on the fly. Half of the key “skill position” players are new. I think Raye is doing an excellent job of feeling out the offense and tailoring his gameplan to suit said offense.

Yeah, there have been some tough losses this year and the team probably should be better poised for a playoff ticket. What I’m seeing though reminds me a bit of the Garcia-Owens-Hearst-EJ offense when it all started coming together. Fits and starts for sure, but watch out when they get it all together. I’m talking about a balanced, killer offense and not an outdated offense overly saturated with dive plays.

by daveofferson on Dec 18, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Isn't that the problem

Going to the shotgun improves an offensive weakness (Alex’s passing) while limiting a strength (Frank Gore).

I thought Raye called an excellent game against the Cards. He tried passing a few times from under center (but not a lot), he tried to run the ball a few times from shotgun (but not a lot). He has to bridge two offenses into one coherent game plan. These formation wrinkle plays keeps the defense honest which should maximize the bread and butter plays.

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

in a big way. I really liked the play calling.
I did notice that Smith doesn’t do to well with spacing…of course Dockett’s a beast, but AS needs to improve his footwork to the point where those ‘under center’ throws are coming out with the right trajectory and angle to avoid danger at the line.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

I’d also argue the bigger problem with passing under center isn’t Smith but his targets. Throwing under center on 1st or 2nd down means Smith has limited targets and it’s there job to get open. Smith’s passing under center will improve as Crabtree improves as a #1 WR.

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

i think...

frank gore running behind this OL on predictable plays is not a “strength.” as you say, it was the way they passed out of the I, ran out of the gun, and other counter-tendency formation wrinkles that made gore so effective this game. it also helped that ARI’s DF7 basically didn’t show up.

if they can continue to use deception as a way to attenuate their OL weaknesses, then by all means, run gore more. but gore was not a team strength prior to this game precisely because the OL was a team weakness.

in 06, it was a different story. they had larry allen opening holes like he was 25 again. the niners aren’t going to get gore of 06 just by wishing it so or because he is individually talented.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I go Gore regardless,

because of his 1 turnover.
obviously unrealistic as it is to run on every play, we simply have no excuse to not run (ie 9 carries for Gore is never justified). And, i know you’ll retort that it’s not getting us yardage or first downs. I’ll retort that it isn’t always necessary. Run the clock, punt the ball, put the D out there in a good spot. It’s better than putting a young QB in a position to force first downs and end up with the Defense backed against a wall. Over the season, statistically, this puts you in the best position to have a winning record because you play low risk football. Our D has proven that it can score for us too- either by taking it back or forcing TOs.

I feel like that’s where we went wrong with the ‘09 season- we flat out abandoned our 2009 game plan to try and get something else to work. And, based on your analysis, I would agree that it worked…in that it gave us the knowledge for our 2010 team. We’ve become more dynamic. We can run out of a lot more looks and utilize those wrinkles. We certainly weren’t surprising teams in the early going!

I don’t know what would have happened if we didn’t make the switch. Or maybe if we just spooked Hill a bit by benching him in HOU. Would our team be in the playoffs?

personally, I think we would.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions  

yes...

the entire time SF has been adopting my offense, i’ve said that there’s no reason to stop running the ball, esp given the fact that their run OFF has gotten way better since they started using the shotgun so much. as i’ve said elsewhere, i don’t think it’s an either-or proposition. they can both use a lot of shotgun and run gore a lot.

as far as “getting away from their 2009 game plan,” it wasn’t working precisely because of what you said about “not surprising anyone.” their offense was too predictable. even now, they’re still unsuccessful when they get too predictable (see under center on 1st down = run every time vs. sea). they had to make a change or else they were going to end up 5-11 again (ala 2007) because they couldn’t score. also, people (aka mdeasy) are making the point that they were winning with hill + run, and that making the philosophical u-turn caused them to stop winning. but, c’mon, the niners scored all of 41 offensive points in the final 14 quarters hill played. it’s not like they just yanked him based on 1 bad half. the offense was garbage for nearly 4 full games.

one last thing i’ll say is that, it’s actually the exact opposite. i agree with you that running the ball is for killing clock and keeping defense’s honest. but, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd quarter of close games is not the time to be killing clock. you kill clock with a 4th-quarter lead. all running before then is to mix it up. do i think it’s justified that they totally abandon the run ala the SEA game? of course not. but i also don’t think it’s justified to run the ball just for the sake of killing clock in the 1st quarter…or the 2nd quarter…or the 3rd quarter (unless they have a 3-possession lead).

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions  

So is Smith just as bad under center as he always has been?

Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.

by theghostofjasonellison on Dec 16, 2009 10:35 AM PST reply actions  

I dunno

Can we get what his shotgun/under center DVOA split was in 2006? Was he EVER in the shotgun in 2006?? :)

I’m pretty sure James can get that stat (sorry no pressure I hope!)

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions  

exactly
Was he EVER in the shotgun in 2006??

kind of renders it moot.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions  

OOPS

Danny, not James. I deserve to be flogged for that!

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 10:43 AM PST reply actions  

wow..

the receiving core back in 06 was not better than what we have now. tell me in that core who was better? bryant? he was at best mediocre. gilmore was a fluke. davis played like a rook. this is the first time i can actually say we have a great potential core with davis, crab, and morgan.

by warrior89 on Dec 16, 2009 10:46 AM PST reply actions  

Yep

All these naysayers about Alex’s performance on Monday need to seriously take a chill pill. If he’s doing so badly, I seriously don’t think the Niners would still even be mathematically (I actually dislike this term) in it.

The determining season for this offense (and I’m sorry for the many who are just tired of waiting) is really next year. I remember an expert (can’t remember his name, all I know is he’s kinda nerdy looking and wears glasses) from ESPN saying before the start of the 2007 season that the Niners would be in the playoffs that year. But as we know, Norv Turner left before that season. They went from 7-9 with Turner to 5-11 under Ho, Host. . .sorry I can’t get it out. Jimmy Raye will likely be here next year. So if everything they’ve done this season does not come to fruition next season, then all the (please be unnecessary) bashings (even when they’re frickin’ winning?!?) will be valid. It’s too much to ask, but I wish these all could have waited till next year. But as my personal saying goes, “It makes too much sense doesn’t it?”

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions  

what we have here is a...

difference in criteria…i’m saying the 09 WR corps is not better statistically….you’re saying they’re better according to things other than stats. i’m writing a stats article, and doing a stats comparison, so my criteria wins for my argument. :-) if it was more of a subjective question i was trying to answer, then, yeah…there are all kinds of reasons to believe this year’s WR corps (after Crabs showed up) is better than 2006.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

realistically

what happened to Arnaz Battle?
From decent #2 receiver (40th in the league) to worst every down receiver in the league (2007) to Decent 3rd WR (2008) to terrible punt returner.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Dec 16, 2009 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

But awesome stats

You’re almost making a good case to say that Jimmy Raye has actually turned out to be a reasonably formidable OC.

And the kinda cool thing is he may likely be back next year!

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 10:46 AM PST reply actions  

I agree with these stats because they agree with my opinions prior to having seen these stats.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 10:49 AM PST reply actions  

Hey

Happy are those who have not seen and yet believed. Sounds good to me!

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Wait a second

Not all stats have to be surprising or revealing.

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions  

The interesting thing about my comment was that I was being both serious and facetious.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Ha!

As if your comment are ever interesting!

GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.

by groug on Dec 16, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

NUMBER AGREEMENT

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I’ll just ban myself.

GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.

by groug on Dec 16, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Don’t you mean “myselves”?

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I can’t vote, because it’s a combination of at least 4 of the 6 options you have. I don’t think the O-Line is better, in terms of talent. I think they are playing better as a unit though. I don’t think Raye is a better coordinator than Norv Turner either.

But, you can see Smith is more poised on and off the field, and that comes with maturity. It’s obvious his receivers are better too, and Vernon davis has finally put it all together as well. The Smith to Davis connection is one of the more potent passing relationships in the NFL right now. Another year older, another year smarter, so I’m sure he has a better understanding… and I think sitting out last year REALLY helped his understanding of the game, or at least it gave him a different perspective. And of course, it’s more snaps from shotgun. He’s comfortable there, and it seems like the O-Line works better out of that formation as well.

So it’s a combination of all of it. He still needs to improve, which hopefully comes with more confidence and experience… but that goes for the rest of the team. If you plug in a couple missing links to both sides of the ball, next year can see this team making a huge turnaround… I mean, we’re not far off. Several games have been lost by 7 points or less.

by aBulldog on Dec 16, 2009 10:51 AM PST reply actions  

Agreed

A rational thinker. I thought they were very much on the endangered list.

The stats are clear. The only thing (and the stats support it) that still concerns me is that Raye still sometimes forces the issue of making Alex throw from under center, which is ok, the man needs to learn. But the concern is that he seems to do it at the wrong time. Late in the 3rd quarter when you’re up by only 1 score and trying to run clock, is not the right time for what I would call working on a “work in progress”. We saw the result. The bad throw to Delanie Walker and the INT. But yeah, there is still a LOT of improvement to be made. The difference between now and previous years is that he’s being allowed to make the improvement in a way that is comfortable to him.

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah...but Smith still sucks because I said so...

And he tried to lose the Cardinals game….Gore and the O-Line won all 6 games this year…Alex was responsible for the 7 losses.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 10:58 AM PST reply actions  

You definitely made me laugh.

The Smith detractors are constantly accusing the Smith supporters of "making excuses" for him. Apparently, they do not want to hear any opinions contrary to their own. And their criticisms sometimes, not always, but too often, defy logic and common sense.

We all know that Smith may fail, but some of us see adequate reasons for believing and hoping that he doesn’t. The Smith detractors don’t think he will fail; they KNOW he will fail! They remind me of politicians who are so intent on being "right" that they make themselves believe what they say.

by CorneliusJ on Dec 16, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

The Smith detractors are constantly accusing the Smith supporters of “making excuses” for him.

They just have a funny definition of “context.”

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 16, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh yeah

I almost wanted to ask what church do I go to that I might worship them. If they know they’re right, they must be almost perfect, which makes them that close to being devine. :)

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

i believe

san fran has a good team. best tight end very playable recievers and a top 5 back in the league. our defense if allowed to get the rest is a top ten defense. the qb position is our problem. yes our o line has been bad but not horrible steelers won the super bowl last year with a similiar o line problem. if we had a big ben we’d be without question at the top of the division and most likely have a first round bye.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 11:24 AM PST reply actions  

please

so smith fans tell me i’m wrong

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

every team has a weakness

Usually several. Our QB isn’t the strongest in the league…our Defensive Front-7 is better than most though. Our TE and RB are better than most too I believe. Our secondary is a weak link right now but as the pass rush improves (which it has) and another off-season…we have a potential “shut-down” defense. Another camp with Raye and Mike Johnson for Alex, Frank, Vernon, Crabtree and company…pick up some linemen on Offense…tell me you don’t think we can go deep in the playoffs with that?

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

for the record

I was a Hill fan from the beginning of Training Camp. I like the progress Alex is making and what his upsides are though and I cheered for him because he was our QB.

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree about the good team part but disagree with your conclusion

This 49ers team is about the defense, when they play well, 49ers win. When they don’t, 49ers lose. Let’s look at the facts (I know it’s getting old but humor me).

Wins: (6)
Arizona (20-16): Defense played very well, limiting the cards to just 16 pts
1st Seahawk game: (23-10)…Gore and defense.
Rams: Does not really could as a game but it was 35-0.
Bears: 10-6: This was all 49ers def and Jay Cutler
Jaguar: 20-3: 3 pts. enough said
Cards again: 7 forced TOs

Losses:
Falcons: (10-45) 45 pts given up and one embarrassing play by Bly
Texans: (21-24) Niners down 24-0 before Alex’s almost comeback in the 2nd half.
Ten: (27-34) 34 pts given up and Chris Johnson everywhere.
Packers: (24-30) 30 pts given up and the packers receivers are still running.
Seahawks: 20 pts given up including inability to stop GW drive.

Pushes:
Vikings: (24-27) No gripes…lost on miracle play.
Colts: (14-18) Another tough loss…defense played great.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

i dont understand

your analysis says you agree with me but the opening statement suggest you dont . i’m not expecting to be pefect here but 3 ints in the tenn. game didnt help. the colt game we held the colts to 18 and had turnovers we supposed to win that game. if we had a steady hand at qb do we lose those two games witch cost us the division lead a sure playoff birth not a prayer.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions  

I said I agree that 49ers have a good team but...

disagree with your conclusion that the QB is the issue. It’s a team game and the 49ers’ defense is the stronger unit to lead the team (ala 2007 Giants, 2005 bears, and 2000 ravens)

You argue that the QB (notably Smith) kept the niners in it in the Texans, Packers, and too a less extent the Seahawks game despite the defense.

I would say that the 49ers have the parts but are still finding their way. They have shown that they can compete and maybe beat but also lose to anyone on (here it comes) any given Sunday. This is just another step in the learning process.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Mean to say

One can argue that the QB (notably Smith) kept the niners in it in the Texans, Packers, and too a less extent the Seahawks game despite the defense.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

the team

for the most part i’m saying the team is doing there job. the qb position with alex smith has been worse. hill without gore found a way to win in minn the def. let us down. we got our butts kicked by atl but without gore. when gore comes back and crabtree comes in you pull hill where is hills chance. why do we have to go through another qb and this learning curve.if thats the case then why start hill at all and just go with smith. hills lease was to short and has been given way less of a chance than smith but but even now has has better results.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions  

It's the NFL

There is always a learning curve…Pitts has big ben and they have the same record as the 49ers.

Peyton had a couple of average games but is still in the lead for MVP this year.

The team is significantly better with Alex than with Hill. Just look at the numbers that Alex put up v. what Shaun did…or just look at the analysis that Florida Danny did above.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions  

i'm saying

you basically pull a qb for going 4-1 and has had a tuff half of football but really bruce was dropping the ball so i dont even know about that.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions  

The decision was justified

Hill was coming off a drubbing at the hands of ATL. He had a 45.7 rating in that game! Then came out the next week and was down 21-0 quite early in the game let alone at halftime.

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

ok

but in atl being without gore but expecting cofee to be gore and not changing the game plan is on hill. so you think we look better losing most of the time from winning most time and justifies the change. think about it 4-1 without gore our best offensive weapon. gore comes back and add crabtree pull hill over a suspect half of football. doesnt add up.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:32 PM PST up reply actions  

you think we look better losing

Do you see that anywhere in my comment?

Nah man I’m just literally saying that at the time, the decision was warranted.

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

losing

it is whats been happening ever since your justified change so yes i did get that from your comment.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

(I hope we don’t pull last season into this) Hill in reality (because the game was lost by halftime against Houston) was 3-3 as a starter this year. Alex is 3-4. Not much of a difference. Look at Danny’s stats, who gives the Niners a better chance at winning?

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

you cant say the game was over at half time so hill was 3-2 as a starter and those two losses came without the lay of frank gore

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions  

OK

So even though Alex outscored Houston 21-3 in the 2nd half, it still puts that loss on his head??

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

no

coaching on that but also must think where was micheal crabtree during these 5 games but yet we were still winning. smith has had way more chances than hill and due to his own losing record has squanderd them. not to mention more weapons on offense.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Ok man

You’re making your point in terms of personnel. Maybe there would be a better argument here if for some reason fate puts Hill into the game this Sunday. But sorry, unless there is a complete (and I mean COMPLETE) breakdown at Alex’s hands or if he gets injured, this is what we’ve got. And what we’ve got according to the stats above is a QB who has the better potential (chance, which winning is by the way, a game of chance) of getting a win in the type of offense the Niners are currently playing.

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Hill started the game and we lost. it’s pretty cut and dry.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

i'm assuming...

that you’re not actually making the argument that QBs win and lose NFL games on their own. that’s kind of the #1 nono in roget’s rules of NFL debate etiquette.

regardless, hill was 3-3 as a starter this season. smith is 3-4. where’s all this “losing” you’re talking about?

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

we've won 1 road game all year

take a look and see where that game was a what qb put together that late game winning touchdown drive.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

i really hope...

drummer doesn’t notice this clear violatin of “we they won”

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe a DVOA analysis of mdeasy?...

Quick, call Schatz. We need to look into this right away. Maybe even get a few more subscribers too.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Dec 16, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Full-Stops Below Replacement Level – he’s off the charts!

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

new stat...

AAAAAARRR!!! = anecdotes and anachronisms above replacement

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Shouldn't that be AAAR!?

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Dec 16, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions  

????
the qb position with alex smith has been worse

did you miss the table in which i show that everything about the niners offense is better this season with smith? or the other that shows smith-started games since 2005 feature better offense than non-smith-started games? and i didn’t even present the overall stats for smith and hill this season because they’re basically redundant to what i already presented? everything about the 49ers OFF is better this season (and in the past) with smith, and smith’s own stats this season suggest the QB position is better with him there.

so, uh, what do you base that on?

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

well

its this simple winning and losing when a great defense meets a great offense most of the time the defense wins. stats on offense our misleading and do not calculate into wins. ball controll and good defense does. take example 2007 superbowl or 2008 0r 2000 1970’s steelers early 2000’s pats 90’s cowboys giants and yes under spoken about amazing defense of 1980’s 49ers.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

a couple of weeks ago...

…in some comment thread (i’ll try to find it, hopefully someone else here can back me up), i pretty much showed that the overwhelming majority of super bowl teams (and champs) were better passing teams than running teams. given that better passing = better overall offense, i’d assume the same is true without having to actually look it up. i’d be shocked if it wasn’t.

also, the correlation between offense and winning is way higher than the correlation between defense and winning.

so, how do you say this?

stats on offense our are misleading and do not calculate into wins.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

ok

prove it better yet just think of dan marino and the 1990’s bills to think how many rings they got

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

p.s....

again with the ancient history….and the incorrect assumption that QBs win games alone. please provide examples since 2002, not examples from eras in which the entire league was less pass-oriented than it is now.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

He has proven it. You’re the one who’s saying he’s wrong. You prove that.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

mr. from the pats ran the ball hasnt won a superbowl since corey dillion left. coach bill is a student of parchells. 3 rings 2000’s pitssburgh two rings and needs no explaination. giants of 07 two 1000 yard backs. 2003 tampa bay gruden runs the ball theres is all your winners since 20002 oh the colts yea they got 1111111111 and over 11-12 maybe years in the league your great pass happy manning snuck one through.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

mannings

in that superbowl is was all about those backs

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Why do you say that? I’m not sure which Manning and which Super Bowl you’re referring to, but it would seem to me that both Super Bowls only help to prove the point that passing was more effective than running.

In the 2007 SB the Colts averaged 6.3 yard per pass play but only 4.5 per run. In the 2008 SB the Giants averaged 7.3 yards per pass play but only 3.5 per run.

So on what basis do you say these two games prove that running the ball worked better than passing?

by Chimneyfish on Dec 16, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, the Patriots sucked since Dillion left..

Fire Billcheck…I wonder if that domain name is still available? It may become useful in 10 or 20 years.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions  

The Patriots have more Super Bowl rings with Antowain Smith than they do with any other running back in team history. Smith had 6,000 yards over a 9 year career, with a career year of 1,157 yards. He career ypc is under 4.

Yeah, the Patriots sure can’t win a super bowl with a crappy running back.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

huh

Can you explain this sentence? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.

oh the colts yea they got 1111111111 and over 11-12 maybe years in the league your great pass happy manning snuck one through.

a

by David Fucillo on Dec 16, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Makes sense to me.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions  

BTW...more stats (I know...it's banging my head against a brick wall)

2009 SB:
Pittsburg: 58 yards rushing (Parker..53 yards)
Arizona: 33 yards rushing (all EJ)

2008 SB:
NY Giants: 87 yards rushing
NE: 43 yards rushing

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

stats they ran the ball 20 times passed the ball 21 most of witch came on the final drive kurt threw for 377 yards and lost but they did run the only 10 times

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

2007

giants ran 23 times new england 16 we know the out come

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

You are getting seriously ridiculous now..

NE lost that game because they failed to rush as many time as the Giants…David Tyress’ helmet had nothing to do it.

Same for Zona because S. Holmes had nothing to do with Pitts winning.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

im saying your picking at straws and trying to undermine the philosphy of those teams they are running teams plain and simple the run is first to setup the pass

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions  

the run is first to setup the pass

This is actually the opposite of how successful teams have functioned since right around 1979. 30 years ago called, and they’d like their outdated philosophies back.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions  

he's tallying up the...

anachronisms. his AAAAARRR!!! stat (see above) is leading the league.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Being a niners fan

I thought you would realize that Walsh destroyed that concept with the West Coast Offense, which had as its core the idea that short accurate passes are superior to running the ball.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

walsh fan

i believe in the west coast offense but i dont believe in the capabilities ofalex smith to handle it. his leadership skills are weak and doesnt take control in games. he is just a plain body on the field

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions  

/meaningless drivel.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions  

You are mixing arguments..

You have just spent 15-20 post talking about how a team must run in order to win but the WCO proves that idea wrong and antiquated.

Whether Smith can handle a WCO is irrelevant…

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions  

running team

we have a running team not a spread offense team martz tried the vertical offense in sanfran and though jt was the best to run it we all know how that turned out

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Let's see...

set up a vertical passing game with

1) a QB with no arm
2) a 36 year old receive in Bruce and an inconsistent 2nd receiver in Morgan
3) no Offensive line

I don’t know why that failed…

mdeasy…stop living in the past…embrace the future.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions  

not really

i’ve been debating what best suits our team for what we have and history supports our setup. walsh defied history and changed the league we dont have the talent at qb to support the west coast offense

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Walsh didn’t defy history. He found something that worked better. And it never stopped working better. It kept working better because it is fundamentally more successful.

You keep saying things without providing so much as a shred of evidence for them. Either you’re talking out of your ass, you honestly don’t know anything about football, or some combination of the two.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

??? So confused

The basic premise of your argument (teams must run) is completely flawed so all logical extensions from that it false. It’s like having an argument with central them that the sun revolves around the Earth

The WCO is an evolutionary step in football from the old smash mouth football of 60/70s. The same way that the Spread could be the next big thing in football.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

The sun does revolve around the Earth. The Earth doesn’t have the leadership abilities to revolve around anything. It’s just another planet.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions  

we have a running team not a spread offense team

Yeah, we have a running team. We’re good at running the spread offense.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

we've lost

we’ve lost more than we’ve won and last game getting the ball to frank gore is the return to our strengths if we would have tried the spread like we did in the past couple games we would have lost.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

You’re saying we didn’t run the “spread” last game?

So… Frank Gore runs for 100 yards = not the spread offense.
Otherwise, it’s the spread offense.

Tell me if I’m getting warm here.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, it’s not that I don’t see what he’s saying.

Exhibit A: Frank Gore ran for 1600 yards three years ago.
Conclusion: Frank Gore is an offensive strength.

Exhibit B: Frank Gore ran for 165 yards the other night.
Conclusion: We played to our strength, which is Frank Gore.

I get it. It ignores every last bit of rational evidence that has been collected during the course of this season. A season in which Frank Gore has only had three games in which he’s gone over 100 yards. A season in which Frank Gore has only had six games in which he’s run for more than 50 yards. A season in which our running game has been consistently one of the worst parts of our offense, while the only times we’ve been able to actually move the ball have come when Alex Smith has been throwing the ball.

I get it. We think Frank Gore is awesome. And he has three good games this season to show for it. Meanwhile, Alex Smith was terrible in 2005. Therefore, he’s not an offensive strength. Actual results be damned.

I get it. We don’t think Alex Smith is awesome.

Frank Gore is awesome. Alex Smith is not. Very good.

The actual games are showing us that this is not true.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

PS: Frank Gore actually is awesome, though.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Heaven forbid

that we have both a good passing and running offense…it must be one or the other.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions  

no...you don't get it...

he’s made his argument very clearly…at least to me.

they won with WCO in the 80s, so WCO is a team strength.

WCO uses pass to set up run, so passing to set up run is a team strength.

spread offense uses pass to set up run.

we they used pass to set up run vs. JAX, and we they won.

therefore, we they won vs. JAX because they got back to team strength, the WCO.

duh!

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions  

it's always good to refer to intangible and unmeasurable traits

when statistics don’t back up your argument

A hearty thank you to Rich Aurilia for all the good memories, and to the Niners for finally getting the uni's (mostly) right.

by wjackalope on Dec 16, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

ZOMG WOWZ!!!

can’t really tell whether you actually clicked on the link i provided above or not:

1) thank you for pointing out the 1 exception (07 Giants) out of the 7 SB champs since 2002…that’s also 1 of only 2 exceptions (other is 06 Bears) out of the 14 SB participants since 2002.

2) actually, gruden’s bucs were almost 25% more efficient in the passing game, and their run offense was 10% worse than the NFL average in 2002.

3) both steeler teams were better in the passing game. their 05 team was almost 40% more efficient when passing than when running.

4) among the SB participants since 2002, 3 had running offenses that were over 20% better than the league average (02 OAK, 05 SEA, 07 NE). all 3 lost the SB.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions  

the point is they passed the ball better because the run setup the pass

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions  

The Bucs set up the pass by running worse than half the league?

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

this

maybe he’s using the “even if you dont gain yards, if you keep running they’ll think you’re going to run and you can pop a pass out over their heads” argument.

I think he likes games like the first one against Arizona

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Tables are for jerks.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

just missed...

what you’re trying to prove. Alex put our defense in bad positions in 2 of those losses -GB and TEN. Gore put us in a bad spot in SEA2. You can’t blame the defense when they’re forced to defend 20 yards of grass.
Our defense has performed brilliantly this year all things considered.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

tp

are you with me on this pulling hill to fast and giving alex every chance in the world and changing the entire philosphy of our game plan

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

with you.

I think we pull hill in Houston, and go back to him v IND.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

An Idea

Why not be the first team to adopt a QB committee? Like running backs but better. Start off with our hybrid (shot)gun and run OFF with AS to get a good lead then hand it over to SH to protect the lead and give the game away? Let Gore + DEF pave the way to victory at that point. I know, sounds crazy. Just an idea.

T. Zachary Moradian

by Criiyguer on Dec 17, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions  

whoops!

I meant: “…hand it over to SH to protect the lead and NOT give the game away?” Sorry

T. Zachary Moradian

by Criiyguer on Dec 17, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions  

uh huh...

sure you did. looks like a freudian slip to me. ;-)

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 17, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I had a slightly different idea

maybe for 2011. Build a power OL. Draft a running QB. Run Wildcat most of the time, and use Smith+Shotgun in obvious passing situations.

But I like the wildcat when used most of the time… I’m weird like that.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Dec 17, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Too simple and excusing the offense

Vikings: 7 points given up in a kickoff return
Texan Game: Defense was on the field the entire 1st half with no offense. 7 points given up do to fumble on the 10 yard line on the punt return.
Tenn: The offense lost the game with turnovers, I believe 24 points off turnovers.
Packers: Again, the offense was shut down the 1st half, defense was always on the field
Seahawks: GW drive? Didn’t the defense stop the Seahawks the drive prior to set the offense up for a game winning drive only to see them give the ball back immediately?

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

i think...

…the problem with your argument is that you’re setting an impossible condition and then attaching “without question” to it. if big ben were the QB of the niners this season, it is “with question” where they’d be in the standings. that is the whole point of using the hypothetical, i.e., to ask the question.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

OL = horrible

was discussed as the worst single UNIT in the NFL this year. They have played a little better the last couple games.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Dec 16, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Alex is just getting better

Sure, the Shotgun has helped him. It’s great when you don’t have the time to drop back and go through progressions, read the defense, etc. I’m not even saying the Shotgun isn’t a good formation…just that it has helped a QB without a TON of confidence to be productive and a little more comfortable in doing so.

He does need to work on the under center stuff. He knows that, Sing said Alex knows that. They will have a good chunk of film on him this year now that his play has improved. They can then decide if his issues are things that should be worked out or schemed around…or a little of both.

I just think he’ll continue to improve in all formations he needs to and thus so will the offense as a whole.

I do have to say that while I’m excited about our receivers…we have to limit the drops. No more excuses. Tacky fingers, catch everything…

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 11:32 AM PST reply actions  

you mean

take snaps under center and be a nfl qb. we as fans should have to wait for him to learn how to play the position first before we can expect anything. what sense does that make

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions  

????

Why does Smith have to takes snaps under center? Why can he just work out of the shotgun? Where in the QB position does it require one to take snaps under center?

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

If you look at the percentage of snaps

Under center vs. in the shotgun throughout (that’s 32 teams) the NFL, I almost guarantee you will see the percentage of plays run out of the shotgun is higher.

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 11:39 AM PST up reply actions  

actually...

most teams take over 50% of their snaps from under center according to the stats. i think the general trend is irrelevant though. the table i presented pretty clearly shows that alex smith specifically should not be taking over 50% of his snaps from under center, regardless of what the rest of the league does.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

actual stats...

only 2 teams (NE = 52.6% & TB = 50.2%) have run over half their plays from shotgun. the NFL avg among the 32 tms is 36.7%. the niners are currently ranked 11th at 43.2%. after 5 games (aka before smith), the niners were ranked 22nd at 32.9%.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

and we have a losing record to show for it great

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

You don’t make sense.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Here's what you said earlier

take snaps under center and be a nfl qb

Now It sounds like you’re saying the Niners are better off out of the shotgun??

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he's saying

that since Smith we are now running more Shotgun and also have lost more games than we did with Hill, which is still debatable to a degree

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

It's one game worse

With Smith, big deal. I can see the argument if we were perennial contenders, but last time I checked we haven’t had a winning season in seven years (ok, who broke the mirror??)

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

yes...

and we they had a 3-3 record to show for “idiotic up-the-middle run for no gain 25 times”…so your quibble here is between a 3-4 record vs. a 3-3 record? seriously?

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Every QB has to learn how to play the position as NFL QB

Alex didn’t have time to really learn. He was thrown to the wolves, then hurt, playing hurt, hurt again, now that he’s had time to not be healthy and also not running for his life without knowing what he’s doing…he’s improving.

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

These coaches are not dumb

They will figure out even under center where Alex does ok and go with it. I’m sorry, but contrary to public (lemming) opinion, I think the man can do some things well (including passing plays) when under center.

I’m so glad we have coaches that are willing to work with him and not throw him under the bus. But hey, that’s what fans are for!

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Whoa!

1 person voted that he has a better OC! Shall we investigate??

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 11:43 AM PST reply actions  

Sacred Cows

I’m glad Danny used the 2006 in his comparison because it attacks a few sacred cows I read in here all the time.

A) Norv Turner was a great coordinator. I’ve been checking the stats all season and Raye for the most part has done slightly better than Norv. How can so many tout Norv as great and fire Jimmy Raye in the same breath?

B) Alex never had a supporting cast. In 2006 Alex had a supporting cast. Bryant was a capable No. 1 WR, the offensive line was much better, TE position still produced with Davis/Johnson combo, Frank was still the tank.

C) Josh Morgan is still overrated. He’s producing on par with 2006 Arnaz Battle.

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 12:26 PM PST reply actions  

Morgan

is a run blocker. he came from a running Offense in college….it’s another personnel misfit that the Alex Experiment defies.
however, he too seems to be coming along. I can see him reverting to slot if we get a pass catcher in here.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

But the same development excuses can be made for Battle in 2006.

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't get you guys

Did you guys not watch the games Hill played this year the offense looked so dry and just plain. Alex gets in there looks like we can actually make a play. I’m not saying Alex is the answer but hes the best we got right now. I think he could be in my opinion but that’s an opinion.

by azNinerfan on Dec 16, 2009 12:26 PM PST reply actions  

he is our best QB- and I'm a Hill guy.

I like Alex. He’s got the tools, but the man has to learn to play out of a pro formation.
Our pass heavy offensive philosophy is the problem. As crappy as Hill was, we still were on top of the division and playing really well.
With Alex, we have a QB that can open it up for our offense. I’m excited that he’s getting an offseason to put it all together. Anoint him, work your playbook with him as QB, but don’t forget to run the ball and take a sack if the play isn’t there!!

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

i cant

i just cant agree with that statement because winning is apart of football. smith loses when he is our qb. i know everthing plays its part but at the end of the daY the team might have won ugly with hill but at least we were winning.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree,

I love anything low scoring! Hockey, Soccer, a defensive football game!
But, Alex just has much more physically than Hill. I just hope our coaches figure it out and create our offense with better run balance. Alex can win in this league- as soon as he realizes he wins when Gore is utilized, when the WR’s are in position to make plays, and when our defense is given a fair field to defend.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

ok

john elway and joe montana elway is way more athletic physically gifted but who would you rather have at qb

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Hooray for apart / a part pun. Winning is not a part of football because it is apart of (from…) football.

FFS, man. Try reading the words you type.

And Smith is not losing. He’s started three games that we won. You’re just saying nonsense things with nonsense words that make no sense.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Should have said “that make non sense.” That would have been witty.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Excellent work Florida Danny. Articles like this are why Niners Nation is one of the best blogs in the business.

How frustrated do you get when you’ll clearly and concisely prove a point using solid facts only to have someone respond with just “I think (the opposite of something you just proved)” and no supporting stats or reasoning? I understand that there’s a lot of distrust towards stats around here, but I just wish that anybody who says they are meaningless would provide us with a better way to objectively measure the game. Otherwise we’ll all be sitting around debating our “feelings” all day.

by Chimneyfish on Dec 16, 2009 1:09 PM PST reply actions  

how about history and the teams who win superbowls when guys like trent dilfer and brad johnson have rings

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions  

you do understand...

that this is 2009 right? are you going to cite the way otto graham used to win and say the same should apply? the overwhelming majority of winning teams since 2002 (realignment) are better on offense…period…end of story. just because you can produce exceptions here or there, they don’t replace the rule.

next thing we know, you’re going to suggest the niners go back to the west coast offense because they won all those rings in the 80s.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

NAH

It wouldn’t be fun if we went back. The game’s gotta evolve, otherwise it would get pretty dang boring!

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

there is no escaping the west coast offense in the nfl today every team uses some verson of it. and by the niners throwing first and trying to run second is a staple of west coast offense

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

hey

if we were winning with throwing the ball i’d be all for it but the truth is were not so we need to use what we have and thats frank gore who deserves credit for our wins this year more than our passing game

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

No one said he doesn't

Look at Fooch’s blog about him winning offensive player of the week.

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Otto Graham was awesome.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions  

TWO EXAMPLES ARE ALL I NEED TO PROVE ANYTHING BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Also valid. I mean, as long as you don’t present them in table form. I am not looking at a table.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Alex Smith = AS (Arsenic) . . . Deadly to the 49ers

elemental arsenic occurs in two solid modifications: yellow, and grey or metallic, with specific gravities of 1.97, and 5.73, respectively. The element is a steel grey, very brittle, crystalline, semimetallic (metalloid) solid. It tarnishes in air, and when heated rapidly oxidises to arsenous oxide which has a garlic odour.

Arsenic and its compounds are poisonous as any reader of “who-done-it” books knows. Upon heating arsenic and some minerals containing arsenic, it sublimes (transfers from the solid to the gaseous state, without passing through the liquid state).

Nuff Said!

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions  

maybe i should have...

titled the article, “KG(Q)B: Alex Smith poisons Niner Offense.”

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

If only his last name started with a “U”

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

HTS...

looks like mdeasy gave up after we dropped the logic-hammer on him. maybe NN needs a graphic for that.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Logic Hammer

What would be the artistic concept on that one?

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, after a while this gets tiring.

“Something stupid.”

“You just said something stupid.”

“No I didn’t, I said [something completely different, still stupid]”

“Actually, that’s not what you said. And it’s still stupid.”

“No it’s not. How is [completely new topic that is also stupid] stupid?”

“Why do you keep saying stupid things.”

“I’m not. I’m just trying to explain to you dunderheads why [fourth brand new stupid thing]”

“More logic.”

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

NO!

Logic makes too much sense. Therefore, it makes no sense at all! :P

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Otherwise we’ll all be sitting around debating our "feelings" all day

Dang someone finally figured it out! Stats or no stats, Alex has definitely developed a love-hate relationship with fans over the years.

Kinda makes for a fun season though!

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions  

thanks...

and yes, it’s frustrating. just an epistemological difference, though, that’s been around since the beginning of time. and yes, using the word “epistemological” makes me a sesquipedalian.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I’ve posted this in past comments, but here’s an updated version. I think it’s a good overview of the type of offense that is successful in the NFL right now. Anybody can say that stats are meaningless but nobody can say that wins don’t mean anything:

The four teams with the very best rushing offenses in terms of total rushing yards have a combined 25-27 record.

The four teams with the most passing yards have a combined record of 40-12.

by Chimneyfish on Dec 16, 2009 1:48 PM PST reply actions  

truth

correct. but, do you think our defense is best suited to defend in high scoring shoot outs or slowly paced, heavy run contests?
We’d have a worse record if we were a strictly pass heavy offense.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions  

but yes? is the answer

we don’t have a ton of speed in the secondary and we don’t have a wicked pass rush.
I might suggest a shut down corner before we enter into an eye-for-eye shootout mentality.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Wait, I thought the D was our strong suit..

the offense has to be less explosive to make up for the problems on Defense?

Indy/NO do not have top notch D but I don’t think they are telling their offense to slow down so that they can catch their breathes.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

our D is fine

I was saying that we’re a defense built around a team that runs the ball.
A slow game bodes well for us because we’re a hungry young defense that takes care of the run and creates turnovers.

by t p on Dec 16, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions  

next year it won't matter

because we will be a team that takes care of it all. I see us dominating next year. There’s no reason to think this isn’t reasonable with the pieces we have in place now

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

defensively that is

sorry, not talking about an offensive miracle, though we should expect it to get better too

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

yes

nate davis yes we will win it all smith not a chance

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions  

and there it is

the name we all were waiting for.

you’re a few years early, but I like the kid too

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

I just realize I had this conversion like twenty years ago

When some 49ers fans were screaming to have Bono/Grbac start over Young…

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I remember people wanted Drunkenmiller

to start instead of Steve Young. Seriously.

by sigma on Dec 16, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

The Truck!

BTW: I still remember the the video of him bench pressing like 1000 lbs and screaming with his linemen…ahhh good ole drunkenmiller…

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions  

how many years

have some of the QB’s in this league had to prove themselves? Brady Quinn/Derek Anderson
Trent Edwards
Jamarcus
Kyle Boller

All of these guys got over a year to prove themselves. Alex is essentially in his second season this year. And honestly, it’s his first legitimate year on the field…

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions  

well

thats just crazy talk young was a proven winner not some we hope he can guy who cant take snaps under center

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Same conversation different points

Argument back then was:

Young was too old and banged…we need someone new and fresh…we need to start Grbac or lose him to another team…

Grass is not always greener my friend.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions  

old and banged?

young went to BYU, so i guess that does make him a “cougar.”

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Hit too close to home...

Live in the capital of the cougars…Orange County

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

man for me i just cant believe in smith i watch him almost scared everytime he throws the ball

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

And yet he’s been far more successful throwing the ball this season than any 49er since Jeff Garcia.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

really

you feel more comfortable watching smith than garcia thats hmmmmmm
i didnt even like jeff but smith hasnt hasnt had any of the success jeff did

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn’t say that. I said he’s more effective than anybody since Garcia. Reading comprehension is your friend.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions  

isnt that right

im not assuming here but you made a comparison to someone who did go to the playoffs. as if alex smith has done anything even to be compared to this guy. i get the word since but once you say since then we must analize the two and smith cant even lick that mans jock strap yet when it comes to comparison.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions  

No. It’s not a comparison. There is no connotation of the word since that implies comparison. It’s a strictly temporal term. Since: from a definite past time until now; after a time in the past. That’s from the dictionary. Since means “after a given point”. It in absolutely no conceivable way means “as compared to a given point.”

I was making no comparison. None to speak of. I was stating fact.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions  

what he said

we’ve had a few guys in there since Garcia left. Smith has been the best. Draw your own conclusions beyond that.

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 4:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Smith still has upward potential...

Which wasn’t exhibited by the rest of the riders on the San Francisco QB merry-go-round.

by sigma on Dec 16, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Ah. It all makes sense now.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m not sure its a future trend, more like Manning, Brady, Brees and McNabb at the height of their powers. Reminds of the late 80’s with Montana, Elway, Marino, Kelly and Boomer.

by bignerd on Dec 16, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Excellent work as always

I didn’t vote because I think it’s a factor of things. I do have a few questions though.

It seems to me that Alex started this year mostly under shotgun but has been steadily moving towards more plays from under center. I wonder if you have access to stats that show this or if it’s just an impression I have that’s wrong.

I’m also curious to see how his stats are from under center now compared to when he first started this year. It seems like Raye and Singletary put him in shotgun a bunch to get him familiar and comfortable with playing again and then have started moving him back towards playing under center. I just wonder if the stats support this.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Dec 16, 2009 1:58 PM PST reply actions  

this

I was saying (or was I just thinking it in my head?) this today. Shotgun was a good way to give him extra time to see the field and gain some confidence. Baby steps. Now add in the footwork but the song’s the same down the field.

Sing even said that Alex knows he has to learn how to throw out of the pro sets if he wants to be a real good quality NFL QB. Alex is a smart guy. he knows that too.

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he wants it too

He was sort of dismissing the spread offense about three weeks ago, but he knows that’s his forte. I kinda think he just said that because he invites the challenge of working the pro set into his skill set.

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

To answer my own question

I didn’t count direct snaps to Gore, FG attempts, punts, or kneel downs at the end of games in these stats.

Houston
18 plays UC
16 plays SG

Indianapolis
40 plays UC
15 plays SG

Tennessee
31 plays UC
34 plays SG

Chicago
33 plays UC
24 plays SG

Green Bay
13 plays UC
33 plays SG

Jacksonville
25 plays UC
34 plays SG

Seattle
18 plays UC
40 plays SG

Arizona
38 plays UC
30 plays SG

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Dec 16, 2009 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

thanks...

just to make things a little more coherent with current and previous discussions/analyses of the topic, i’ve converted your #s into %s:

HOU — 47.1% shotgun
IND — 27.3% shotgun
TEN — 52.3% shotgun
CHI — 36.9% shotgun
GB — 71.7% shotgun
JAX — 57.6% shotgun
SEA — 69.0% shotgun
ARI — 44.1% shotgun

now, with that done, i realize you were trying to answer a specific question when doing this. however, i don’t think it really says anything about what raye/singletary were trying to do with smith if you just look at % of total plays from shotgun. that’s because i don’t think there’s really any question — nor do i think anyone is arguing — that smith can’t hand the ball of from under center. i’m sure he’s infinitely comfortable doing that, so i don’t think raye/sing would be mixing different %s of shotgun/UTC to test his handing-the-ball-off comfort level/abilities.

rather, what we need to know is his % of passing plays from shotgun in each game. if you can do it quickly, let’s see that breakdown. then you’ll really be able to tell whether there’s been a steady progression upward or downward in his shotgun %, which would give you a little better basis for concluding that raye/sing have been “working him in” so to speak under center.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 6:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Good point

I didn’t look at that when I did this,so I’ll go back and do it again. One thing that did jump out at me was the number of drives that went something like this—under center run, under center run, shotgun pass, punt.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Dec 16, 2009 7:42 PM PST up reply actions  

if you want a real laugh...

look in the 2nd SEA game and find out the percentage of times the niners ran when they had 1st down and were under center.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 9:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Updated with the percentage of pass plays

Again I didn’t count kneel downs, spikes, or scrambles in this.

Houston
8 plays UC
15 plays SG

Indianapolis
23 plays UC
15 plays SG

Tennessee
22 plays UC
30 plays SG

Chicago
14 plays UC
15 plays SG

Green Bay
7 plays UC
30 plays SG

Jacksonville
13 plays UC
30 plays SG

Seattle
14 plays UC
34 plays SG

Arizona
12 plays UC
22 plays SG

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Dec 16, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions  

good work...

so, again changing them into %s, it’s

HOU — 65.2% shotgun
IND — 39.5% shotgun
TEN — 57.7% shotgun
CHI — 51.7% shotgun
GB — 81.1% shotgun
JAX — 69.8% shotgun
SEA — 70.8% shotgun
ARI — 64.7% shotgun

looking at these %s, i think it’s pretty clear that raye/sing aren’t easing smith into under-center. if anything, what it looks like to me is that, when he came in in the HOU game, they were down 21, so that = more shotgun having nothing to do with smith being the QB. in the IND game, they used their same run + defense game plan just like when hill was there…also, remember that IND is perenially way worse on DEF vs. run than vs. pass. then, against TEN & CHI, both were close games and both had the same kind of 50/50 split of shotgun/under-center that hill had when he was the QB. so, again, in those 2 games, they still hadn’t changed to smith-friendly shotgun.

finally, they unveil the shotgun against GB, and the shotgun % has been around 70%, with variation depending on what the score gap is in the game. against GB, they were losing the whole time, so shotgun % is around 80%. against ARI, they were winning the whole time so shotgun % is around 60%. and in the 2 close games, shotgun is almost identical right around 70%.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 11:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup

Looks like these support your theory again. Our offense has looked it’s best in the Arizona, Seattle, and Jacksonville games—and these games the pass plays were 2/3rds shotgun. GB is a bit of an anomaly since we were under SG for almost the entire second half, but that second half was also the most efficient our offense has been.

Our offense looked horrible in the Chicago and Indy games, so-so in the TN game, and good in the 2nd half of the Houston game.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Dec 17, 2009 12:33 AM PST up reply actions  

problem is

if we’re primarily successful passing out of the gun and running from under center…we might as well not even huddle up and just tell the defense what play we’re running.

point being that we can’t just say, “yay! It’s proven Alex passes better out of the shotgun so let’s go with that!” Obviously (not saying you were of that group btw) Alex and Frank have to learn how to do their respective jobs out of both formations better.

by Tre9er on Dec 17, 2009 6:00 AM PST up reply actions  

take this formula

most of the games up there if the % is near or above 50% we were playing from behind a good bit of the game. The ones below 50% we were trying to control the clock in close games.

Houston is a little deceiving but that was early on before we let Alex line up more in the ’gun. Jax we were putting the hammer down on them early, like the whole first half… but most of the rest you can see why we ran that %

by Tre9er on Dec 17, 2009 5:54 AM PST up reply actions  

i think i addressed this trend above...

you’re right that the specific s fluctuate based on how the game went. however, the important point is that the baseline (aka the median) went up considerably beginning with the GB game, from basically fluctuating around 50 to fluctuating around 70%.

also, we were simply trying to answer a very specific question posed by smileyman: “Is there evidence that raye/sing have been gradually working smith into under-the-center plays?” i’m assuming that smileyman has the same thought you do, i.e., that smith needs to become an efficient QB at both shotgun and under-center. so, in presenting those %s, don’t extrapolate to any other conclusions besides the one that answers the question smileyman collected data for.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 17, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Correct

and looking at the data it appears that Raye is not working Alex more towards UC.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Dec 17, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

change

you can change the subject all you want but history tells us that defense and running the ball wins superbowls. our coach believes it he has a ring because of it.the league changed the rules so the game can be more passer friendly but still the superbowl winning team all have something in common pounding the ball.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 1:59 PM PST reply actions  

no, someone even posted contrary evidence to that

there have been more than a few SB’s with teams rushing for well under 100 yards and still winning.

The formula for winning is not one singular thing. You can win by rushing a ton but you still have to play some defense. You can get turnovers left and right on defense but you still have to put some points on the board to win. There are many ways to win…

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 2:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

How many INT’s did the Niners get against the Bears and had NOTHING to show for it? I’m glad they put the two together against the ’Cards.

by Mangoman on Dec 16, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Ooh! Good example!

Our defense played great, got turnovers, AND Gore ran for some good yardage in that game. And it was obviously in hand by the last play of the game too, huh?!?

If defense and running the ball were the one and only key (as mdeasy says) we would have beaten the Bears 136-0

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions  

wow

we stuck to our strong points and won balance of course is good but for our team when we run more we win. alex smith is not capable of taking over and dominating a game frank gore is. my point is for what we have we should run heavier than we pass . not that serious and calling me names for using history as apoint to say many other teams have done this and won is crazy.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

our team when we run more we win

We won a game where Frank Gore ran for 30 yards. We won a game where Glen Coffee was our starter. We won a game where Frank Gore ran for 33 yards.

Please actually verify that the things you are saying are true before you say them.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions  

stats when frank gets the ball more than 16 times we are undefeated nvm yards. ball controll and decating to the run leads to victory. geeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzz

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Fallacious arguments. Teams run more when they are winning, so running backs touch the ball more when their teams are winning.

Teams pass more when they are losing, so running backs touch the ball less when their teams are losing.

Frank Gore getting 16+ carries in our wins is happening because the team is winning those games. We’re not winning those games because he’s touching the ball more.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Carries are so overrated...yards and TD are what are important

Example:

First Seattle game:

Gore had 16 carries/207 yards with 159 yards and 2 TDs coming on two carries…that means he had 48 yards on 14 carries..

Which one is better, 2 carries, 159 yards 2 TD or 14 carries and 48 yards.

by calbearjd on Dec 16, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

we lose

your stradegy is a losing one for our team perhaps you should take up with a new team

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

not this year

blame nolan not frank look at this year when frank gets the ball we win

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions  

That’s a fallacy.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions  

channeling mdeasy...

what’s a fallacy?

no, not “what of the above is a fallacy?” literally, “what’s a fallacy?”

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions  

You know, I always want to make a fallacy pun. But the opportunity just never seems to pop up.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

you mean...

kind of like fallacy = phallus-y? or fallacious = fellatious?

your logic is totally fellatious! = good thing
your logic is totally fallacious! = bad thing

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions  

The first one. The weiner one.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Although the second one is also good.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions  

p.s.

mdeasy’s AAAAARR!!! (adjusted anecdotes and anachronisms above replacement rating) has vaulted up to #1 in the NN rankings for december.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Dec 16, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

not at all that is truth and you stat guys must know that it is. so you just say its untrue. rather relizing and excepting what moves our team in the best direction and hide behind philosphy that does not fit our talent.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

listen

game plans are complicated. every team does it. they try to find what they think will win against the other team in the situation which they will play. home, away, people injured, stats, strengths, packages…it’s NEVER as easy as “we just run the ball more than pass and we’ll win every game”.

Like howie said…when you’re winning…you’re going to run the ball a TON to eat clock. Sure sometimes you have enough success running the ball that you’re able to do it all game. If it’s working, do it. But when you’re pounding Frank Gore’s helmet into the line of scrimmage 15 times for less than a few yards…yeah, I think you try something else.

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 3:38 PM PST up reply actions  

and no, I don't mean for the rest of the season

but I mean that some games you simply will not be successful running the ball. You can try and adjust at half-time and keep it in your back pocket in case it starts working again…but you do what’s working. period.

by Tre9er on Dec 16, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions  

of course its complex but life has no coinsidences. its all has reason and purpose and balance is of course the way to go. but with our talent our balance should be more torwards running the ball.

by mdeasy on Dec 16, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Life does have coincidences, actually. Things sometimes coincide and create the appearance of correlation.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Dec 16, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply