Defense: the 49ers' defensive alignments and players, an interactive discussion.
by zacksf on Dec 2, 2009 3:43 PM PST
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PrintThe point of this post is to create a place in which to focus a discussion of the 49ers' defense, including formations and player utilization, as well as the performance, talent and "shelf-life" issues of current players. I will start with a quick summary and some questions, and then just let the discussion go forward. (Player ages are in parentheses.)
Down lineman:
Sopoaga (28, Hawaii)
Franklin (29, Tennessee
Justin Smith (30, Missouri)
not starting in base:
Balmer (23), Jean-Francoise (23), McDonald (25), Evans (29) and Ahmad Brooks (25) (who is large OLB /small DE type (260 lbs)).
Linebackers:
Lawson (25)
Spikes (32)
Willis (24)
Haralson (25)
Additional line-backers include:
Wilhelm (28) and Mckillop (23) (inside), and Briggs (24) and Brooks (25) (outside).
Current base-defense secondary:
Bly (32)
Spencer (27)
Lewis (29)
Goldson (25)
nickle back:
Brown (24)
I would be interested to get a better understanding of: 1) how much playing time various players are getting (e.g., Balmer, Francoise, Brooks, Francoise, Mckillop, etc.), 2) what players being used in non-base defenses and situations? (and who is being subbed into base), 3) how well particular players seem to be playing and progressing, etc.
Also feel free to post analysis of formations and personnel in nickel and dime defenses.
Any analysis of defensive alignments and tactics, and their implementation with the current 49er roster, is welcome.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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I should also add the other back-up players from the secondary: Reggie Smith, Roman, Taylor and Keith Smith.
Dashon Goldson
I get the impression that Singletary is pretty enthusiastic about Goldson. Feels that he has speed and an instinct for hitting, and that Goldson has a solid long-term future with the niners.
SS is where I think he will benefit the team most
I think he starts at FS because he is the best option on the team. I think he can play the SS better than Lewis
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
If...
… the 49ers draft a FS this offseason, I have very little doubt that Goldson will give Lewis a run for his money as starting SS.
Really
Goldson has better ball skils that Lewis an can tackle just as well. He just needs to be smarter about his approach but he can supplant him at the position
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
Ahmad Brooks
People have talked quite a lot about the evident need for a stronger pass rush from the outside. I wonder how much Ahmad Brooks could be part of that future. If the coaches believe that he can contribute in that regard, would that lower “edge-rusher” as a draft priority.
I wonder if he will be:
taking time away from Haralson or Lawson?, or sharing time with (Justin) Smith? (or Sopoaga).
Nate Clements
Him not being there is really hurting the defense. His strong-tackling ability is not there, as he was good at stopping the run and preventing small plays from turning into big ones with his open-field tackles. I didn’t like him as a CB because he got beat by WRs regularly but I was hoping he would play safety…and then the injury happened. And we’ve got to see §h|t Goldson out there trying to hit people shoulder-first and missing. Goldson = Clements without open-field tackling ability pretty much. Both have average speed…Clements should be given a shot at safety when he returns (maybe on third downs instead of Roman). I think he can definitely find his niche there.
Jason Hill supporter 'til the end
With the exception to Spencer
I think the entire secondary should be upgraded all around. Bly = too many costly mistakes (gambles too much) and is old…he’ll be gone next year, Brown = Very young and needs to gain more experience and confidence in himself; I think he’s a so-so cover guy and a so-so tackler…sometimes I wonder if he hates tackling, Clements = good open field tackler but streaky in coverage, Lewis = Slow more slow and even more slow + Not great in coverage (Great tackler and in stopping the run though, Goldson = good tackler when help is there but not so good at open field tackling; coverage is so-so but gets beat more often than he should at the position. Overall the weakest part of the D.
Defensive line = Good but missing one piece at the LDE (the answer there is not on the roster) Smith and Franklin are perfect there for what we do on D.
Linebackers = Strongest element of the defense. Again one piece short. Lawson is not going to cut it I dont think. Well maybe.. but not sure yet. He has had enough time to develop though and part of me wants to say he peaked in college. Spikes will be solid til his contract is up and Haralson and Willis of course are just beasts out there. Future: McKillop is a good special teamer but his attitude reminds me of Romanowski (cocky and angered all the time) sometimes I wonder if he’s on the roids. Ulbrich will retire…is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that he is twitchy-tweaky and always looks like he is on something? Anyway, I am sure he’s not getting tested so …who cares? Anyway Briggs and Brooks should be good too…hopefully Brooks turns in to the pass rusher Sing seems to think he is. With that said, I dont think a LB will be drafted. Possibly may go after Merriman in FA but its a long shot…he’s a showboat and a bit of a diva and Sing soesnt like that crap.
I'm really fed up with so-called Niner fans
ragging on Sopoaga. He is the main reason we are so tough against the run. Check out the videos and you will see that about 90% of the successful runs have gone around Justin Smith’s side. Soap is frequently being double teamed and almost always has them going back toward the QB. He is probably the most underrated player on the defense. Very consistent. He and Franklin together should be the tackles in a 4-3. We would get better pressure up the middle on the QB and it wouldn’t make our LBs look so inept at pass rushing.
They signed Soap to a long-term contract for a reason. He’s very good and considered that around the league. It’s only in SF where real Niner fans hardly exist anymore and have been replaced by a bunch of whining kids who know nothing about how to win, and especially how to act with class.
Kezarvet
Kezar
Slow down, the young are supposed to be whinny once-in-a-while; it doesn’t mean there not loyal to the niners.. It’s up to us old guys to show class on a regular basis. But alas, we all fail some times, maybe too many times. Your second paragraph is just too angry, and starting to get a little low in the "class" department. And I will agree with you, Sopoaga is a Studddddd!
Right.
Because discontent with players on a team shows lack of being a fan? Get over yourself.
Riight
just like Nate Davis is the QB of the future?
Our main success against the run can be attributed to Franklin and Smith.
Actually, you're wrong.
Our success vs. the run is Soap and Franklin. The fact that they take the double teams lets Smith roam more and pressure the QB going 1 on 1. And, yes… Nate Davis has a real chance at being the QB of the future.
As for discontent, that’s one thing. I’ve read the “Red Zone” which I refer to as the Idiot Zone and I’ve seen the constant references to some of our players as “garbage”, “trash” and other references that shouldn’t be applied to anyone, let alone the kids on the team you support.
Kezarvet
Riiiight.
Like the defensive lineman gets to choose how many people block him? Double teams are demanded by performance, and Sopoaga and Franklin, while solid, don’t play like players that demand multiple blockers. If Smith is getting more 1on1 it is because the offensive line is confident it can single everyone on that line, not because Franklin or Sopoaga demand it. If anything Smith’s play is probably drawing the double teams, which is leaving Franklin 1on1 more, which could be contributing to him having a career year.
Here is what the Jacksonville press
was saying about the Niner defensive line before the game. As I said, Soap has a lot of respect around the league. It’s 49er fans who are clueless.
There’s a lot of beef on the San Francisco line, besides Franklin, Isaac Sopoaga is a load on the end. Sopoaga is very strong and just has the raw ability to bull a lineman back onto his heels. Jaguars rookie right tackle Eben Britton is going to have his hands full on Sunday.
Kezarvet
Alex Smith is 25 years old how old is davis?
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
LOL
49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha
by 49erSalvatrucha on Dec 3, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
according to FO
Right side of Niners run defense is stouter (% wise) than left side. And almost No one runs at the Right side B-gap – and that’s Smith’s territory, not Sopoago. I am not sure which LBs tend to line up on the right side though, that probably has something to do with it.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
What are you watching?
Three of us sat and re-watched the last game. All but one of the successful runs was over Justin Smith’s side of the field. Sopoaga clogs his side and there is nowhere to go. A little aside, last season Tomsula timed all of the defensive linemen to see who was fastest off the ball and no, it wasn’t McDonald. It was Sopoaga who demonstrated his speed vs. Green Bay when he ran down Aaron Rogers. Pretty impressive.
Kezarvet
the numbers are for the whole season
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
What numbers?
The fact is that the front three have done a helluva job but my point remains — the most successful runs vs. our defense are consistently over Smith’s side.
Kezarvet
You're wrong again
Football Outsiders has the information based on directional running. Niners D-line is ranked 8th in ALY on runs to the left end, 3rd on runs to LT (Smith’s spot), 12th up the middle, 11th off RT (Sopoaga), and 12th off RE.
Tells me that Smith is much better against the run than both Franklin and Sopoaga.
Defensive Line Rankings
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
kezarvet...
… is more of a traditionalist, believing his eyes more than some fancy mathematicians’ numbers.
outside linebackers, Haralson and Brooks??
(in reply to Drew K.)
Do you think the future for OLB might be Haralson and Brooks?
My guess would be that Ahmad Brooks, if he gets to that level, would be more of a right OLB type. Does that seem reasonable?
Brooks is supposedly starting this week over Lawson
Lawson will play also but we will see more of Brooks this weekend. It will be a small sample size to go off of but maybe he’ll astonish us. At least thats what we all should hope for
If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk.
Dashon Goldson
Hmm. So you are not thinking that as Goldson improves his technique he would evolve into a top safety?
My impression is that a problem he has now is a that he tends to take poor angles on his tackles (and in coverage), but I got the impression that that might be coachable and that there could be room for quite a bit of improvement regarding that.
I guess is speed is not exceptional (4.5), but he is aggressive and he is a lot younger than Clements.
Goldson doesn't just lack...
… technique. The mental part of his game doesn’t seem to be showing improvement at all. If he continues at this rate, he’ll kind of be the equivalent of a AAAA All-Star in baseball: great in practice and training camp, but in game he can’t pull it together.
Does Goldson still have the "green dot" helmet
that enables communication with the coaches?
Seems like a big responsibility for a young player who is still working on his mental game. I wonder how much that might be effecting the defense in general??
He's only...
… had that dot for two games, no? Maybe three, tops? His mental mistakes have come since day one, I’d say.
I’m sure SOMEONE was yelling into the headset that Singletary wanted a time out last week, only to have Singletary have to come out on the field to call it himself. I don’t know what went on there, but the team needs someone who can better carry the dot.
he’s had the dot for 5 games, and in all of those games (except GB) the secondary has played better and patrick willis has played better.
by hellaninersfan on Dec 3, 2009 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
I highly doubt...
… the 49ers pass defense has played better. They’ve maybe cut back on TDs, but yardage has been astronomical.
Since the change they have, IMO
"CHILD PLEASE"......................-E. Ochocinco
Ignorance is truly bliss!!
Nolan, that (site decroum) is gonna beat us to Berry!!
Age on the Dline?
Is anyone concerned about age on the D line? The 3 starters are all about 29 or 30.
Is it reasonable to project that they have 4 or 5 good years left? How long do defensive line-man tend to be able to play and be productive? I guess they are not taking hits like a running back, and they learn craftiness, etc., so many play well up to 35 or so (or are those more exceptional cases)?
If the 49ers stick with a 3-4...
… you have to hope that Balmer, RJF, and whomever they decide to draft as a NT (hopefully a NT), will step up over the next year or two. The 49ers don’t need the 30-somethings to make plays (i.e. penetrate and get pressure), but the more physical nature of a 3-4 DL (even the DEs) probably requires stamina and resilience that is more common in youth than in almost-retired vets.
Basically, I don’t know if another 5 years is a safe bet for guys like Justin Smith and Aubrayo Franklin. This is especially true of Smith who gives 150% every down.
Go to Pro Football Focus
You can see who plays what spot on the defense and who subs in for every game if you want. But since you already listed the base defense, here’s the typical defensive alignments (from a Madden perspective, the offense is below the defense on the page).
Nickel:
CB: Spencer FS: Goldson SS: Roman CB: Bly CB: Brown
LB’s: Willis and Lewis
Line: Haralson, Smith, McDonald, and Lawson
They go to a 4-man line with Haralson and Lawson at DE and Justin Smith and Ray McDonald as the tackes. Willlis stays in as a MLB and Michael Lewis drops down to play linebacker as well. Mark Roman takes Lewis’ spot at safety and Dre Bly subs in as the nickel DB.
Dime:
CB: Spencer CB:Hudson FS:Goldson SS: Roman CB: Bly CB: Brown
LB: Willis
Line: Haralson, Smith, McDonald, Lawson
Basically the same as the nickel except the third safety comes out to bring in an extra corner (Hudson). Roman and Lewis rotate in this package.
Goalline:
CB: Spencer FS: Goldson SS: Lewis
LB: Lawson, Spikes, Willis
Line: Smith, Balmer, Franklin, Sopoaga, Haralson
They go with a 5-man line (although sometimes Haralson is standing, effectively making him an OLB), and only 3 DB’s. Interestingly, Willis doesn’t play in the middle in this formation, probably because he can cover guys out in the flat a lot better than Spikes can.
Magic Formation (everyone standing):
CB: Spencer CB: Bly FS: Goldson SS: Roman CB: Brown
LB: Haralson, Smith, Willis, McDonald, Lawson, Lewis
This is the least set in stone of the defensive alignments. Sometimes Roman will come up in the box too, sometimes Spikes and Brooks are in the game at one of the LB spots, and often one of the corners is blitzing to add to the confusion the formation is intended to create.
Substitutions:
Balmer subs in the most in base packages (about 15 plays per game, usually for Sopoaga), and McDonald pretty much plays on all passing downs (20-25 plays per game). Franklin and Sopoaga pretty much never play on passing downs. Demetric Evans also plays occasionally in place of Smith, but Smith has played 90% of the snaps this year.
For the linebackers, Willis stays in on every play, Spikes comes out in most nickel/dime packages (although he occasionally stays in as the 2nd LB instead of Michael Lewis). Ahmad Brooks spells Haralson and Lawson, but each of them play about 90% of the snaps.
In the secondary Spencer and Brown (or now Bly I guess) play the outside receiver on virtually every play. The 3rd CB gets to play quite a bit, but the 4th usually only a handful of plays per game. There’s also the safety rotation mentioned in the nickel package description, with Lewis and Roman rotating and Lewis often playing as a linebacker on passing downs.
by Brendan Scolari on Dec 3, 2009 10:32 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the explanation
I’m not as up on the defensive side of things as i am on the offense.
I really wish the casual fan could have access to the game film. It’d be an awesome way to really see how the secondary plays. As it stand we only get to see plays if they’re either bad (e.g. long passes), or really good (e.g. interceptions).
Thanks, really interesting
I guess Brooks is also starting to play more in some of those packages, probably mostly on passing downs?
so let's follow this plan
Berry drafted, starts at FS in all packages, Goldson starts at SS in all packages. Roman, Lewis gone. Who drops down in Nickel to play LB? Do we have a LB who can cover well enough to do that or are we talking about involving Smith/Taylor more next year…subbing them in Nickel and letting Goldson play LB?
I think that could be a good idea
Or you could have Goldson as a deep safety and put Smith/Taylor up as a linebacker, I’m not sure who of the three covers better because Smith and Taylor don’t really play. I wouldn’t trust any of the actual LB’s well enough to play the position full time.
by Brendan Scolari on Dec 4, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions
thus far I'd rather bring Goldson down
and hope that one of the young fellas can cover better. He’s a head banger and his ball skills/cover abilities are really lacking right now…then again who knows what another camp will do for the kid…
that's an idea
Singletary seems to like Goldson, though it is hard to tell what he is really thinking some times.
I like him too
have you seen dude’s neck in locker room interviews? looks like spikes’ neck. He’s a brawler and needs to be unleashed on opposing offenseses…just with some control. Right now he’s like the retarded bottle-rocket you get in the bulk pack. He could be a guided missile
I would really like to have a series of posts in the offseason
discussing various defensive and offensive schemes and formations. We hear things like Cover 2, Tampa 2, 46, etc, but it would be nice to get some real in depth stuff.
Same with offense and various schemes there.
I'm too lazy to look it up...
… but there is a guy who posts on the Denver Broncos SBN blog that does quite a bit of “teaching” about football, whether it be formations, schemes, or whatnot. Maybe Fooch can point it out for you if he remembers off the top of his head.
offseason info
The Broncos guy sfgfan mentioned has done a couple posts for us. He has put together a whole ton of posts and I’m thinking I’ll post a link to a different post throughout the offseason. Also, I think I’ll talk to him and see if he can put together some more 49ers-specific stuff at some point.
by David Fucillo on Dec 4, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
offseason
Things are busy enough right now with weekly game-related posts that I’d prefer to not have these kind of posts get buried by the regular season stuff. Also, the offseason can get a little dry at times in terms of posting, so I like the idea of being able to focus on it a little more at that point.
by David Fucillo on Dec 4, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe a Q & A post with that guy would be insightful for us
once it gets to the point you’re talking about of course
If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk.
That would be awesome
I know most of the general stuff like shells, route combos, and blitz schemes but it would be really awesome to get some in-depth breakdowns.
by Brendan Scolari on Dec 4, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
Ahmad Brooks / pass defense, Nickle...
I think Ahmad Brooks is going to be joining Smith, McDonald and Haralson as a “down lineman” in nickle and dime packages.
Would they tend to usually line up (left-to-right) as:
Haralson, McDonald, Smith, Brooks
or something else?
that's the plan
but they are still going to rotate Lawson in there too. I think they’re hoping both guys will play better with the “competition” so-to-speak. Lawson was in there a lot in the Jax game though because they didn’t give us time to sub much. I know the plan was to have Brooks in for a lot more snaps on “obvious passing downs” which generally means “Nickel”
Off-season coaching
to me is going to be huge. We have tons of young talent on both the D-Line and LB corps. These guys are all showing flashes for the most part. Time to coach them up, get them paying close attention to the veterans and bring them along. Think about it…if we could get these young guys producing we can focus on other areas in the draft like taking more OL’s and DB’s.
off-season coaching
The defense may surprise some people next year. Singletary can add a lot of value in the off-season. He can connect with people (players), and he knows techniques.
still...
I’m disappointed in our tackling this year. Mostly in the secondary. Who is the secondary coach again and what do we think of him??
1st round pick, safety or corner
Generally speaking, how quickly can a “franchise type” (1st round) safety or corner back be ready to play in the NFL?
Can a rookie CB or FS start and contribute?
Depends on the level of talent
and sometimes you just never know what you’re going to get. Like the kid Byrd in Buffalo. I am sure they drafted him because they thought he’d be good. I just dont think anyone expected him to be that good. It’s a strange game and sometimes people you think will be goos in the NFL arent as well as the other way too.
If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk.
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