Scot McCloughan's Job Security
by masa11284 on Dec 22, 2009 2:17 PM PST
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I think it is a bit premature for Jed York to endorse both his first year GM & coach. It is my belief that Scot McCloughan's ability to evaluate talent and make the appropriate moves for this organization are ill-advised. I am aware that he was the one who pulled the trigger on Patrick Willis but from what I've read, it was Mike Nolan's persistence that brought Patrick to San Francisco.
Scot receives a lot of praise from owner John York and President Jed York but for what? Am I the ill-informed one? Would you promote your head of player personnel (who also brought in his own brother as a scout) who said that Alex Smith warranted the #1 overall selection in the 2005 draft as well as a $63 million dollar contract?
The same guy who looked at Nate Clements and thought to himself - Champ Bailey, let's pay him $80 Mil and show the people that we are not completely tight with our funds! I'm not buying it. He's had 3 years as a Vice Pres of Player Personnel and the last 2 as our GM. In those 5 years - what has he accomplished?
They should sell a large chunk of this team to it's fans... The one's who have no allegiance for players or staff members. An objective review of this team from head to toe needs to be conducted because guys like McCloughan who cater to guys like Alex Smith when both have shown that they can't pull it together.
So we wait - for what?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Here is the good news
49ers make the playoffs in 2010 than McCloughan keeps his job.
49ers miss the playoffs in 2010 than McCloughan is fired.
Stay tuned . . .
I think it's more like..
49ers miss the playoffs in 2010, he keeps his job and Smith is still QBOTF.
49ers miss the playoffs in 2011, he keeps his job and Smith is still QBOTF.
49ers miss the playoffs in 2012, he keeps his job and Smith is still QBOTF.
Well, we're waiting....
sarcastic?
If not that’s a rather ridiculous comment.
by David Fucillo on Dec 22, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions
It was sarcastic..
But it reflects the current Status Quo of the past few years as well.
Like how the 49ers have missed the playoffs the past 5 years with some of the current key pieces still in place.
Well, we're waiting....
true
I figured you were being somewhat sarcastic, but just wanted to make sure. In the weekly game releases I get it includes a rundown of how the roster was compiled. I’m planning on putting together a post at the end of the season that includes all the players, how they were acquired, and then some general thoughts, as well as opening it up for further discussion.
by David Fucillo on Dec 22, 2009 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
LOL, you should know me by now Fooch..
But in fairness to the 49ers and Jed, they really can’t afford to shake things up at this moment. Part of my sarcasm is related to they still hoping the changes they made in 2005 will pan out in (holy site decorum!) 2010, and they haven’t yet had a winning season yet. But ScotM and Sing are Nolan hires. Smith is still the QBOTF in waiting. The 49ers still put neophytes in critical positions that will affect the future of the Franchise (Jed included along with ScotM and Sing). They still avoid tangible football experience in the FO because they don’t want anyone to shake it up there, and threaten or undermine their credibility (see: Marathe or ScotM). All they do is put a new face on the team, and make a Billboard out of it.
Well, we're waiting....
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Exactly how I feel. I am all for continuity this year, but just seems like same ol same ol. Smith will get hurt, and we will want 2011 to evaluate him AGAIN. If Sing doesn’t work out, or Raye, we will have to start again in 2011. Just seems like they are patching holes with tape instead of rebuilding the ship.
I just think we will have another mediocre year next year, just miss playoffs, and have to start all over again with new QB, new OC, but with a year older Gore and a year older OL, etc…We are wasting Gore and Davis in mediocrity.
McCloughan
Say what you will about Marathe and Jed York, Scot McCloughan has a good deal of experience. This is a guy who was hired in Green Bay by Ron Wolf, and then followed Holmgren to Seattle and has received nothing but praise. He’s had his struggles with San Francisco, but I actually think he’s got things going in the right direction.
And as for Jed, he’s said he stays out of football ops, leaving it to McCloughan at this point. He could be lying but I’ll take him at his word (I’m sure More False Hope will rail me on that one).
by David Fucillo on Dec 22, 2009 5:25 PM PST up reply actions
ScotM has a great pedigree...
Being under Holmgren and Wolf, but he is a first time GM, and chances are he wouldn’t have been one so quickly had Nolan hadn’t brought him in. Same goes for Sing as HC. The 49ers have a lot at stake here, and the fan’s confidence in ScotM’s is tenuous, and most of that is because of his association with the Nolan regime.
As far as going in the right direction, as long as he doesn’t get complacent at the QB position by putting it all in Smith’s basket, he might have a chance at holding his job. Why? Because if he is stubborn at that critical position and it fails, then he really put himself behind the proverbial 8 Ball.
Well, we're waiting....
Maybe you can spread it out too
I think if you put the entire roster at once it would get a billion comments. However, if you spread it out it would allow a higher quality of conversation.
What key pieces are they? The head coach has been replaced, the OC has been replaced… The team president has, for all intents and purposes, been replaced… There’s a new starting WR, a new starting CB, most of the players who returned are either showing improvement (Morgan, Lawson, V. Davis, Franklin, Spencer), or already very good (Willis, Gore, J. Smith, Spikes)… Even Scot McCloughan is only in his second year as GM, and before that he reported up the structure to Mike Nolan. Alex Smith is returning from missing the last year and a half due to injuries… Even the DC is only in his second year.
The biggest areas of consistency for the past five years has been with the York family owning the team, McCloughan still filling some higher function within the team, and Paraag Marathe still being employed by the 49ers.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
The continuity issue you bring up doesn’t make sense. Job titles and roles have changed, reporting structures have changed… We went into this season with Shaun Hill as the starting QB, but when the offense struggled mightily just to convert 3rd downs, he was pulled and Smith was put in. Now management has had the full second half of the season to determine whether or not they think he’ll be a good enough QB to steer the offense moving forward. And after a year-and-a-half of not playing, and entering this year with a restructured contract and no guarantee of a starting job, I don’t think that’s steering the ship in the same path.
And bringing up Paraag Marathe just makes me want to punch Ralph Barbieri square in the face even more, because I can’t help but feel like you’re just repeating his idiotic words.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Loosely translated, you’re saying you don’t have a good argument and you know it. That about right? Because you failed to explain your continuity issue. I get that McCloughan and Singletary are still there. But Sing was an assistant coach, not the head coach. And McCloughan reported to Nolan in terms of free agent acquisitions and drafting, if I understand it correctly. So different people are effectively in charge, aren’t they? So how is it my comprehension is down?
Also, your reply just makes me want to punch Ralph Barbieri in the face even more. Not because your snide remark was very Ralph Barbieri-esque… Just because Ralph is an idiot.
One more point of clarification… It looks like I was referring to you as an idiot for repeating Ralph’s words… Sorry about that. My meaning was more that you mentioned Paraag, which is something Ralph would always nonsensically do, and it drove me nuts.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
The irony here is..
The argument made for Singletary and this current record is that he doesn’t have that good of a team, right now. So who was in charge of personnel? The guy Nolan brought in? That’s ScotM. He didn’t rise up in a vacuum. His idea of who, how, and why to draft still applies here. Do you know who is the longest HC Singletary coached under? Nolan. If Nolan hadn’t brought him in, he wouldn’t be coaching in SF today. Do you know who was the catalyst behind Nolan’s hire? Marathe.He led the coaching search after the Erickson debacle, and John York decided that he could run the entire Organization, even though he had no experience in any of the roles he had. Do you know who brought in the 3-4, and brought in Manusky? Nolan again. Most of the assistants like Foerster, Hoener. Tomsula, Sullivan, and Everest were all Nolan hires. With the exception of Raye, Rathman, and Johnson.
Smith is still thought of as the QBOTF, and every other QB isn’t.
If you don’t see that Nolan’s handprints are still all over this team, and that what the 49ers have done was just bump everybody up, then I don’t know where you want to go with this.
Well, we're waiting....
So you’re saying the continuity is that it’s, for all intents and purposes, Mike Nolan’s people that are running the football operations for the 49ers. I follow you there. That makes sense.
But at the same time, that still doesn’t quite seem accurate. Yeah, Nolan brought in McCloughan, but McCloughan learned his craft while working for the Seahawks and Packers. Sing credits Nolan with teaching him a lot about head coaching, but one of the first things Sing did after taking over as HC was to turn over defensive game calling to Manusky, who promptly ditched the Nolan 4-3/3-4 hybrid defense. He also made Martz start using the running game more and change quarterbacks. He’s since changed OCs, and has been able to better utilize weapons in the passing game while also trying to evolve the offensive game plan into one that better suits the personnel (arguable point, to say the least). Marathe pre-dates Nolan, and may have been partly responsible for bringing him here, but from what I understand Paraag’s duties primarily revolve around contract negotiations and possibly statistical analysis. Not sure about that. I’ve not heard anything more recently about him even being in the booth looking at plays to challenge. And as for Smith, as recently as last year he wasn’t considered the QBOTF. The only thing that’s kept him in SF was a renegotiated contract and his desire to get back in with the team. The fact that his play has vastly improved from 2006/2007 is the thing that keeps him in consideration for potentially starting next year.
I definitely understand what you’re saying, that this is essentially a Nolan team. But with all the roles having changed, it’s not quite the same thing anymore. But one thing I will say for Nolan is, I thought he did a decent job of working to get better players into the system and clean up the mess left by Terry Donahue. I suspect a lot of why the team didn’t succeed had a lot more to do with poor coaching than poor personnel decisions. The hybrid defense never seemed like a good fit for the players, and his whole, “I don’t know offense, I’m leaving that up to Martz to handle,” speech looked to me like proof he was not head coach material. I don’t think a head coach needs to be overly hands-on, but does need to set some sort of game plan for the team, and that never seemed to be a strong point for Nolan.
That’s all I got right now. I don’t think you’re wrong, but I also don’t think you’re being entirely accurate in your assessment of the franchise.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
From what I remember..
When Nolan was a candidate, he insisted on ScotM as his right hand guy. Marathe bristled when Nolan insisted on bringing Heneghan in, and there was already tension between Marathe and Nolan. Marathe was once considered a candidate for GM, before ScotM. But, I think the Yorks had no clue of who ScotM was then.
As for Smith and his renegotiated contract: when they pursued Warner, I felt that was more smoke than reality. Outside of that, the 49ers haven’t done much outside of that position outside of drafting Smith prior to Davis this past season. Going forward into next season, it’s really Smith or nothing. The one thing to worry about is what if Smith get’s hurt? Who is his backup, and how much is he capable if the entire offense is built around Smith? At least when Martz came in, he was trying to install a system, and the QB had to fit that system. If there was a system that Smith could have excelled in, it could have been that system. But he was hurt. The Yorks didn’t like Martz to begin with, Nolan hired Martz out of desperation, and ScotM wasn’t on that page or didn’t get that memo. But the flipside to Singletary and Raye is that what Sing wanted and what the reality of the personnel was that, hey, it is a passing team, so in turn, he is doing the same thing Nolan did by leaving the offense up to his OC. The irony is that Hill struggled more under Raye than he did with Martz, and the WR’s got more TD’s, as opposed to VD getting most of them this year. Just think of Crabtree in a Martz offense. He can run the routes for sure. I hated that Nolan hired Martz, and I knew he would be fired once he did that, but hey, you want offense? You got it kid.
Nolan’s hybrid offense wasn’t a bad idea. Justin Smith lined up all over the place, and the personnel had some versatility switching between the 3-4 and 4-3. Really, the 4-3 suits the personnel IMO. Heck, Nolan in DEN has brought a defense out of the weeds there, from 30th to 6th. I don’t watch much DEN games if at all, so I dunno if he is still using that hybrid. But it isn’t like he doesn’t know defense. He just didn’t know how to be an GM/HC, because he never did that before. The Yorks thought of him a part of a past Legacy due to his Father that would resonate with the fans. Here is an old article on Marathe and the coaching search:
http://www.sfweekly.com/2005-12-28/news/offensive-line
I actually asked Billy Beane about how “Maratheball” would work in the NFL when this article came out, when he was on KNBR with Ralph. Maybe that can tell you a little more about Ralph and Marathe.
My thing is, the 49ers haven’t been on a certain path, or even have a plan, post the Erickson debacle that showed how incompetent John York was at running the Franchise. They might be lucky with Singletary, but Sing needs a strong Organization for him to succeed. Sing is just a HC, and that’s what he should be. Not a Face of the Organization. Not the “Savior”. That’s Jed’s job now. But the fact is, there will be residue, both good and bad, from Nolan’s era. The main issue that did Nolan in was Smith. The same issue that can bring Sing and ScotM up, or down is Smith. IMO, everything else doesn’t matter, not Gore, Willis, or anybody else to them. It’s about Smith, and Nolan ain’t around anymore.
Well, we're waiting....
To add..
Here is a telling quote from that article, regarding Nolan’s hire:
The 49ers went with Nolan, someone with “all the elements,” Marathe says. “He blew away the interview process. In his quotes, at his press conferences, he exudes all of the qualities of an inspirational leader, a guy who the team rallies around and looks to for vision and direction. At the same time, he’s a disciplinarian. He’s exactly what we’re looking for.” Most importantly (at least as far as the media are concerned), he was a football guy, with a football-guy pedigree. Nolan, like everyone on the team, has struggled this year, but he seems to have charmed the Niners’ legion of critics. After his successful debut, for example, the Merc’s Killion swooned: “He was a leader on the sideline, coordinating his team, planning his strategy, aware of everything.”
Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
Well, we're waiting....
Where do you get your wild ideas?
That’s really not a question seeking an answer, because reading your answer would be even wilder than what you wrote here.
I didn't write that quote..
It’s archived, and Billy Beane was quoted in that same article, which was addressed on KNBR due to the fact that Marathe’s “Random Indian guy” was thought as an issue of race.
It’s Bay Area sports history. Reality may be a wild idea to you, as well as it should be.
Well, we're waiting....
This is for Danny..
“A lot of times,” says Jim Schwartz of the Titans, “what happens in the media and even in the fan base is that if people don’t understand, they fear it.” In the football world, according to Schwartz, people hesitate to lean on complex statistical analysis because they “don’t know or don’t have the expertise.” “When you start using words like ‘regression analysis’ and start using statistical modeling, you sort of go over their expertise,” Schwartz says. “They don’t have the background in those kinds of things that Aaron [Schatz of FootballOutsiders.com] or Paraag has.”
Jim Schwartz is a football guy, to be sure. He’s in his fifth season as the Titans’ defensive coordinator and has worked the sidelines in some capacity since 1989. But he’s a different kind of football guy, one who understands and appreciates what non-football guys like Marathe are trying to do; he is a football guy who knows his way around a regression. The man graduated from Georgetown with honors in economics, after all. There’s an old Gil Brandt quote he likes to use: “We’re taking one step closer to the dartboard than everybody else.”
It’s only a matter of years, maybe months, before someone makes Schwartz a head coach, and when that happens a cheer will go up from behind all those kryptonite-powered laptops. His hiring would represent at least a small shift in the terrain, if only because he’d be the first coach who, more than just being open-minded about numbers, candidly touts his alliance with the statheads. Those who fancy themselves doormen to the mythic football fraternity will be confused, infuriated even. They might even have to rethink the fraternity.
Would Schwartz want someone like Marathe in his front office? “Oh, certainly,” he replies.
And why is that? Schwartz doesn’t hesitate. “I think he’s a football guy.”
Well, we're waiting....
I think it's a multi-part equation
When you’re a new coach you have to build a system around the guys you have and be as successful as you can that way.
Once you have an identity established for your team you can start drafting players to fit that identity, which allows you to plug ‘n’ play.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Plug 'n Play..
I was thinking of the WCO earlier this evening, and I thought (bear in mind, I’m a geek) that it is the ultimate Open Source OS. You can adapt it into whatever you can configure, but the source code is to be shared, and the blueprint is so genius that it can be ran on any system, even with limited resources. It’s all predicated on the programmer/developer, and you can do anything you want with it, because the Kernel itself is rock solid.
Jeebus, bignerd is gonna kill me on this one.
Well, we're waiting....
Also smiley..
Part of what fascinates me of this article is the “What If” factor of the symbiotic relationship of Marathe and Schwartz. Part of what I’m saying here is that maybe the Yorks looked at Nolan as a model, and Sing is a more “pliant” HC this season. I don’t know if Sing and ScotM are on the same page. If they were, then maybe you draft Oher instead of Crabtree. Either way, well, Oher is rare. But what I’m wondering is how as you read this 2005 article, why is it how what would seem a logical approach between Marathe and Schwartz become Nolan and nobody else.
I’ll tell you the reason why. The Yorks, Dick Nolan, Mike Nolan, and a suit.
Well, we're waiting....
I suspect you're right
about Nolan.
Schwartz would seem to fit right in with what Marathe is trying to do (and I think the rest of the league will end up doing more of that kind of an approach).
It’ll be interesting to see what kind of development the Lions have over the next couple of years with Schwartz.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
There's been more continuity on defense than offense
On offense, Alex Smith may as well been on 4 different teams in 5 years (with last year away from football). Same effect.
Meh... I won't go that far
In the off chance we go 10-6 or 11-5 and still miss the playoffs next year, I wouldn’t want to go head hunting. Based on the odds, I’m cool with your scenario.
Why wait
There is no reason to keep Scott for another year he has done nothing to earn it. Everyone is blaming Mike S. the real problem is the GM pull the trigger and get a GM who really knows how to evaluate talent.
McCloughan is a front office puppet
He’ll be made the scapegoat very soon.
by More False Hope on Dec 22, 2009 2:53 PM PST reply actions
puppet
So who is pulling the strings for player personnel? Are the Yorks the one telling him what players to go after? And if you believe that, please explain why.
by David Fucillo on Dec 22, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
Talent isn't going to overcome biased officiating
The biased officiating tickles down from all the owners of league.
by More False Hope on Dec 22, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
excuse me?
First, that didn’t answer my question.
Second, if biased officiating comes down from all the owners of the league, wouldn’t that mean they’re biased against everybody, and so biased against nobody?
by David Fucillo on Dec 22, 2009 5:27 PM PST up reply actions
Proves you don't watch NFL games that closely
Maybe you just don’t care
by More False Hope on Dec 23, 2009 1:34 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, proves you don’t actually pay attention to anything around this blog.
Maybe you just don’t care.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 23, 2009 8:04 AM PST up reply actions
Mike Shanahan
for GM/director of operations
DREAM DRAFT:
1a. Either trade up to get Eric Berry, or trade down a big amount of spots, get a 2nd and 3rd rounder, and take Spiller
1b. An OT
2a. Iupati
2b. CB/S depth
3-7. Whoever the hell you want
by MichaelClutchtree on Dec 22, 2009 3:22 PM PST reply actions
I'm with ya!
Who do we have to sleep with?
That's one way...
… to have a decent offense and an abysmal defense.
Get real.
I don’t believe Mike would allow that to happen.
Really?
Because the GM and director of operation’s wouldn’t then become Singletary’s boss? Shanahan is a lot of things, and one of those things is a every confident guy who has the ego of a giant. GM’s own coaches, not the other way around.
Yeah well,
That type of speculation is moot at this time. I believe he worked quite well with the remainder of the staff last time he was here and the results were better than we are currently experiencing.
He was...
… an offensive coordinator at the time. He had people OVER him.
If he comes on as a GM/director of ops guy, he almost answers to no one by Jed York.
I know what he was,
But other than an ego which everyone in the organization should have, whats wrong with a man with a proven track record having won a couple of Superbowls.
Well...
… what’s wrong with him is the same reason he got ousted by the franchise where he did so much of his winning (including said Super Bowls). His defenses where almost always pretty weak, even though his offenses tended to be average, or slightly above that.
I’m not saying he’s destined to fail here, but I just don’t see him as a big improvement (if at all).
There seems to be this expectation suddenly that a former head coach will be a very good GM. I’m not sure I get it…
Can anyone point to a time when a former head coach has actually been very good as a GM? I know Holmgren wasn’t, but he was trying to fulfill two roles within an organization. So is there any evidence of former head coaches just becoming full-time GMs and really excelling at the job?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
He asked what successful coach has been able to move into the GM role and be successful. Walsh started out doing both . . . well so did Nolan.
Why in the hell would we do this
What did he build in Denver? Nothing. What did he have when he got there, everything but a RB. He is sooooooooo overrated
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
"I seen the ball was behind me and I can't go out like that"
Niners trade up in 2010 draft!!
LOL
Saying pretty much what I said in multiple comments, but in one line.
Points
Alex Smith – I recall reading that other teams were interested in Alex Smith up there if the 49ers didn’t take him. People complain about not taking Aaron Rodgers, but look how far he fell. You can’t blame McCloughan for the big contract Smith received, given the way the guaranteed money has gone up each year for first round picks, and QBs in particular.
Nate Clements – When you’re a crappy team you’re forced to overpay for free agents. Obviously Clements is not a Champ Bailey shut-down corner but hes highly talented. Furthermore, his contract is incredibly backloaded and is NOT a true $80 million deal. The final year is a voidable $15.48 million season. And given that contracts are always reworked, if Clements is in SF for more than another season, his deal will be re-worked.
McCloughan’s brother – He had 8 years experience with the Raiders before joining his brother in SF in 2005. Obviously he might not be the best talent evaluator (I honestly have no idea one way or the other), but your comment makes it sound like it’s a complete nepotism issue.
I do think McCloughan is on the hot seat going forward, but people jump all over him even though I don’t think it’s really quite such a bad situation. He and Nolan cleaned out years of cap hell and basically rebuilt this roster from scratch. Nate Clements hasn’t been great, but I will say he’s amazing in run defense. Aubrayo Franklin has turned into a decent addition. Justin Smith continues to be awesome. MIchael Lewis has been great as a run-stopping strong safety (obviously struggles in coverage, but that’s not his true role).
After the season I’m going to go through all the acquisitions since 2005, but I don’t think it’s been quite as bad, as some of those signings above show. How about Isaac Bruce (very solid last year when most thought he was finished)? Takeo Spikes has worked out quite well. Barry Sims struggled last year but was great in relief of Joe Staley. Dre Bly has had plenty of problems, but he’s had some positive moments.
Again, I’m not saying Scot McCloughan gets a free pass, but I just don’t think he’s remotely as bad as some folks think.
thanks for noting the 2005 draft
i have always been so angry over us drafting smith over rodgers since that day, i never really knew where smith was projected to go.
i thought he was maybe a mid-1st round prospect that we just took too high.
DREAM DRAFT:
1a. Trade up to the team that picked Okung along with our 2nd and 3rd rounder for Okung+ their 3rd round pick. We take the team's 2nd most wanted OT with this pick.
1b. Trade down to ~20-22. Get that team's 2nd round pick and take Mike Iupati here. This (hopefully) fixes our o-line issues in one round.
2. Whoever our FA likes as best CB available. Maybe Donovan Warren/Trevor Lindley.
3. BPA
4. Jordan Shipley. Maybe even 3rd round.
5-7. BPA
by MichaelClutchtree on Dec 22, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
Fooch - I get what you're saying but..
I did not pull a Mike Tirico for a reason (fact dropper).
This poll was intended to open the air of discussion rather than prove me wrong or right.
1. a. Alex Smith DID have other teams interested in him. I never said that Aaron Rogers should or would be a better fit than Alex Smith, even though he came from Cal, a pro-style offense and played at both the Junior College and D-1 level. He didn’t experience the same scenario and even after a few years of sitting behind Brett Favre came in and finished 4-11. b. Guaranteed money is just that – McCloughan had nothing to do with that. He was the #1 overall pick. The #1 OVERALL Pick gets #1 money.
2. a. “when you’re a crappy team you have to overpay for free agents”. – Overpaying for free agents does not mean that your limited to paying top dollar for free agents undeserving of a potential $80 Mil" contract. I understand that his last year is a voidable $15+ mil year deal…. What I am saying is that his production on the field prior to joining the 49ers did not warrant making Nate THE HIGHEST PAID defensive player EVER… (of all time – at that time). Even the actual" $63 Mil" he was set to make without incentives is high enough, don’t you think?. b. Re-worked contracts still don’t take away from the guaranteed $$,$$$,$$$ – ESPECIALLY during a “rebuilding” phase. (And yes, we for sure were still rebuilding ourselves from Cap hell),
3. McCloughan’s Brother. How about McCloughan’s dad who’s worked for Al Davis for the past 43+ years? I honestly don’t know what “nepotism” means and I apologize for my ignorance but I would think that nepotism fits in this particular scenario ;). (Nephew, Son, Cousin – what difference does it make?) Yes, that is what I am implying…
Fooch, I know I’ve violated the site decorum policy before and I do not intend to do so again but seriously… You’re an avid 49ers fan and I will not question your professionalism or your patience with some of your ill-informed subordinates, myself included. I am aware that McCloughan has played an active role in pursuing players like Aubrayo Franklin, Justin Smith, Takeo Spikes, Barry Sims, Dre Bly, and Isaac Bruce but do any of those names stand out to you and say, “Great Off-Season Acquisition”?
Of those 6 mentioned – Justin Smith is underrated but paid VERY well… Barry Sims has done well but can’t run block (in a run first system), Isaac Bruce only Had one year left in him and Aubrayo Franklin was all but forgotten UNTIL 2009. Takeo Spikes has been such an intricate part of Patrick Willis’ development and I am whole heartedly thankful for his contributions – Dre Bly almost had me in front of his house along with several other thousands of fans but has been a huge contributor in the absence of some of our more notable defensive backs. But who has he “acquired” that has had a direct contribution to the overall success of this team when we still finish the year (at best since 2002) 8-8?
Again, I understand that you see where I’m coming from in regards to Scot McCloughan’s “Job Security”. But from what I’ve read and understood – you’re not giving him a pat on the back either.. “remotely as bad as some folks think” – yes, it could be worse… But we are not Tampa, Cleveland or Detroit and you know that.
We as fans “owe” nothing to the staff members ultimately in charge of deciding this clubs future. We owe nothing to Alex Smith who despite constant ridicule and verbal battery is charged with handling 100% of the snaps from under or a few yards back from center. We as fans choose to get the attention of ownership and coaches in a desparate attempt at evaluating performance & potential when they fail to acknowledge that it is even an issue.
Niner Nation – I do not write this to antagonize or insult any one of you. This is just an opinion/concern with the greatest amount of respect for each and every one of you. If my previous comment says otherwise, email me @ masa11284@aim.com and I will issue you a formal apology.
Now let’s smash Detroit.
Re: Clements deal
Yeah sure, the media and Clements’s agent got to spout “$80 MILLION HIGHEST PAID DEFENSIVE PLAYER EVER”, but the contract was never actually worth that much. Instead of 7/80, it was more like 6/65, which, while perhaps an overpay, isn’t an overpay by THAT much. (Rowandesque, as opposed to Zitonian, if you’re a Giants fan)
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Here's the other thing with that contract
the big bulk of it is in roster bonus money—$21 million over two years. His actual salary this year is $3.5 million which is quite reasonable. Because of the roster bonuses he counts $5.5 million against the cap which doesn’t even break the top 10.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
uuugggghhh.....
made me shudder to think about Zito’s contract keeping us out of the “bat” market this year because we are against our limit. Another year of wasted pitching because we won’t expand payroll. Giants make me shudder.
He will get one more year.
IF Smith doesn’t work out, and his draft is so so, he is gone. Draft solid, and I think he is in for sure.
IF Smith DOES work out, he is in regardless of how his draft turns out.
I’d bet his job is based more on the performance of the team in 2005 than on how Alex Smith performs, or even, necessarily, how the draft works out. Though both may well be tied in to the team’s performance.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
He is responsible first and foremost for the players on the team.
He will be fairly or unfairly tied to Smith. Smith works out great, he doesn’t, McC pays for it. If a player is in the wrong scheme, or underacheives, it can be blames on the HC or OC as was Smith, and other draft picks. However, eventually a GM get’s a big enough “fail” list and he takes the fall. It can’t be 3 HCs, or 7 OCs, etc…eventually it get’s to the GM.
Now I’m not against McC. I think he has taken some steps in right direction, but the Home Runs are few and far between. He seems to pick, big, lumbering players, where is the electrifying player? The guy on ESPN everynight, etc….He lucked out with Willis and Staley, but was that him, or Nolan? All I’m saying is, he seems more mediocre than SUPERSTAR
You know, I feel like there’s evidence somewhere in the Bay Area of how a GM would be tied more to the success of his team than the success of his individual players… I just can’t remember where I Renteria that… I MEAN saw that! Weird slip of the Rowand… TONGUE! Weird slip of the tongue.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Where is the success of the Giants or 49ers though?
Both have struggled as of late, and that’s why I think both GMs are on the hot seat. That is why I said, eventually the “fail” list catches up to the GM. It’s not just Alex, with McC, but unfortunately it’s the straw that broke the camels back after what 7 losing seasons in a row? As for Giants, it’s the same thing. Not any ONE player is gonna knock Sabean off his high horse, but the SAD SAD SAD free agent signings, the ill advised trades, and the lack of playoffs in what 8 years, will be his undoing….
It's easy to think the Giants would be good now if they could be magically rid of Zito's contract ...
… and spend that money on bats.
Alas.
I don't approve of McCloughan...
…because, as you have stated already, he has a tendency to misjudge good talent. I thought it was ludicrous that the 49ers did not draft a speed wideout like DeSean Jackson, even with alleged urgency from Jerry Rice. I also think it’s ludicrous that somebody, if not McCloughan himself, seems to blatantly over-invest in the defensive unit of the team while leaving so many holes in the offensive unit. The offensive line, needs of the receiving core, kick/punt return duties and the quarterback position itself have been horribly handled thus far.
But I reserve my criticism for what it is, and acknowledge that the first year of anyone’s anything is always going to be the hardest year. I can already bet that most everyone here would have a completely different opinion of the entire front office once the 49ers start winning next year, lol.
I thought it was ludicrous that the 49ers did not draft a speed wideout like DeSean Jackson…
Right, because the other 32 teams in the league didn’t pass on Jackson at least once? As everyone should have learned from the Raiders this season, speed isn’t everything for a WR. This is especially true when said WR is under six feet tall and doesn’t even hit a buck-80 on the scales.
Crabtree thought he got screwed
DeSean was a more polished and accomplished WR coming out of college than DHB.
And no you cannot lump the 49ers with the other 31 teams. Everyone expected the 49ers to draft DeSean because he filled a huge need, talent matched their drafting position and the entire fan base was familiar with him playing at Cal. Not to mention Jerry Rice personally worked out and gave DeSean his endorsement.
Uh.
So the 49ers were the ONLY team out of the league’s 32 teams that needed a WR? That still doesn’t address the same question marks that I’m sure teams (and not only fans) had about Jackson. He may have been “polished” in some eyes, but he was also seen as a player that was extremely small and seemed to disappear for weeks at a time sometimes.
I’m not saying he wouldn’t have helped, but to chastise the FO for not drafting him is a little overzealous, I think.
As for Rice endorsing a player, does that really weigh in? I’m not saying Rice doesn’t have any credibility, but it’s not like he’s even making himself available as an adviser for the 49ers. I saw Rice’s comments more as someone endorsing a player as an almost-agent, kind of like Deion Sanders with Crabtree.
You keep trying to cover up this failure by insisting McCloughan should be lumped in with all other GMs.
McCloughan had the best seat in the house to evaluate DeSean Jackson. He had the best look, he had more inside information, he should have had more answers than anyone on DeSean Jackson. Out of the 32 GMs in the league he should have been the one who know better, not another subscribing to the group think which resulted in DeSean being picked 49th.
Question this, question that, red flag here . . . it’s the GM’s job to find the answers to those questions. It’s not being overzealous to criticize him. It’s the reality when the slob watching from the coach knew better than the high priced, general manager. When the GM is right, no one criticizes the slob. However, when the GM is wrong while smiting the masses, he’s going to hear about.
If you don’t see this decision as a failure, than I’ll trade you Balmer and Rachal for Jackson. He missed badly, on his own home turf.
by bignerd on Dec 22, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not saying it's..
…. overzealous to just criticize him. But to criticize him for missing something almost everyone else also missed is what I feel is reaching. Yes, you can expect your GM to be better than the others, but really, how likely was it in that scenario?
Just because the player is in his back yard, it does not mean that he’s going to pull away the same answers to the same questions everyone else had.
Again, I stress that I’m not saying Jackson wouldn’t have been useful. I’m just saying criticizing McCloughan for “missing” him when almost everyone else did is just overreaching.
To be fair . . .
I view it as the 2nd time he has missed on the Cal player, but I’m not going to say a thing more about it because I know this is the one board that refuses to believe it.
I rec'd
I think the fact that he was in his own backyard, is what makes it sting the most. If Jackson was a guy from Ole Miss, or Rhode Island University (made up), that’s one thing. But from his own backyard, when all the chatter was about Jackson playing for us, WANTING to play for us, working out with Rice, getting his endorsement, etc…seems like most people had him going to us except McC.
As I said above, McC prefers goody two shoes, that are big and physical. Not electrifying game changers. I think that’s why we have Balmer, Coffee, Morgan, Walker, etc….
I don't know
Honestly, I think you guys are being unreasonable. A pro GM doesn’t watch a lot of local college games just because they’re local.
There were a lot of legitimate concerns about Jackson because of his size. He’s shown those concerns to be unfounded, but it’s not unreasonable to pass on a player like that out of fear of injury.
Mmmm....
No. Backyard… You can’t miss that… Like – Almost literally…
DeSean was right there and to pass on a guy as dynamic as him (and everyone knew it) was a slap in the face to any local products looking to make a name for themselves in a 49ers uniform.
Jahvid Best – Vallejo, CA – anyone?
So did Frank Gore
He worked out pretty well.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yeah, but in the third round he wasn’t much of a risky pick.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 23, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
This.
Best is going to be someone’s second (maybe even first) round pick. That’s a significantly higher risk than the third round pick used on Gore (as you generally want your first and second rounders to be starters).
If Best fell to the 49ers in the third, I would love for them to take a chance on him. I just don’t see that happening, though.
"Everyone knew it?"
No, everyone DIDN’T know it.
Otherwise he would have been the first WR taken. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been multiple WRs taken between our pick and Philly grabbing Jackson.
Don’t rewrite history. Everyone didn’t know it.
Fair point.
But if the front office really knew better than someone with on-field expertise (not just experience) like our own Jerry Rice, would the team not be in a better position than it has been for the past few years?
The Yorks are relative aliens to the 49ers in terms of the 1980s-1990s dynasty. I think it would be in their best interest to heed all the advice they can get from credible sources, and not insist they know better just because they are in charge and people like Jerry Rice are not.
There comes a point when you have to draw the line between the front office and its ability to make decisions. Sometimes, just because someone is at a certain position doesn’t mean they are necessarily qualified. Whether people like it or not, it is analogous to the current situation with the U.S. presidency.
People keep talking about Rice's recommendation ...
But what is Rice’s track record with recommending players?
That’s not a rhetorical question. Okay, he was right on Desean, but what reason did we have, at the time, to think that Rice had special insight?
A lot of great players are NOT great talent evaluators (MIchael Jordan, anyone?). Did Rice have a track record to suggest his recommendations should carry special weight?
..Do you have any recommendations?
Do you know of anyone Jerry Rice has endorsed but has subsequently failed at the next level? Brandon Marshall maybe? (JK)
I was asking the question seriously.
I don’t know who Rice has endorsed, period. If you have a complete list, I’d love to see it.
Maybe Hill’s right, and Rice is pretty much consistently on the money.
Or maybe he’s right some of the time, and wrong some of the time.
Or maybe he’s rarely right.
I don’t know. Do you?
Wasn't it Rice...
… that previously said Smith wouldn’t amount to anything?
Yup
He also said that whoever picked Smith should be fired.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
He said that about Smith a year after he was drafted
not exactly a prognisticator there. Especially since he had this to say about Alex Smith just this year, from our very own Ninjames interview with him.
And you probably have the quarterback that you want in Alex Smith because he has shown significant improvement.
I can’t imagine Rice suggesting we grab Marshall, not with his record of off-field problems, and I haven’t been able to find any sort of statement that says he did.
So as far as documented evidence goes, Jerry Rice is only 1/3 on draft picks.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Huh, how is Jerry 1/3?
If the Marshall pick doesn’t count and want to say Jerry is wrong about Alex Smith than Jerry is 1/2.
You're right
math is not my friend obviously.
At best Jerry is 1/2, and even then I still think we had worse problems.
Our guards were Baas, Wragge, and Snyder. Jonas Jennings was our RT. If it’s believable our O-line was even worse then. We had to do something to fix that.
Of course if we’d grabbed Desean Jackson in 2008 it would have made the choice between Oher and Crabtree much easier for us, but hindsight is perfect.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
lol
49ers Al Grito De Guerra!!! hahaha
by 49erSalvatrucha on Dec 23, 2009 11:43 PM PST up reply actions
Hmm...
I suppose you raise a very good point. Ultimately, it may come down to a matter of opinion, considering Rice doesn’t really have a track record for recommending players. But as a fan, I’m really confident in his choices because he has a personal record to go by, and it is my belief that his record and status as the greatest wide receiver ever to have played the game of football gives him great insight about what it takes to be a successful receiver.
Whether or not that qualifies him as a viable talent evaluator is going to be all subjective, though.
the thing is
often it’s the mediocre players who make the best coaches and talent evaluators, because they didn’t have the physical gifts of the greats, and often had to work harder, and be more fundamentally sound just to be mediocre. I know that’s not really true in Jerry’s case (one of the hardest workers, if not the hardest, in the NFL), but it’s definitely not a general rule that great players are even average at coaching/talent evaluation.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
This is one of the reasons I like Singletary so much
He was a great player not by virtue of his incredible talent but because he was one of the hardest workers in the game.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Sometimes, just because someone is at a certain position doesn’t mean they are necessarily qualified.
It’s not like I’m arguing that McCloughan should stay or that he’s doing a stellar job. I’m definitely on the fence in terms of a McCloughan approval rating. However, there are plenty of other reasons to question his “performance” as a 49ers GM that doesn’t require the hypothetical of DeSean Jackson. I’m still none too thrilled about Balmer, the epic fail of David Baas, and the mediocre-ness of Manny Lawson and (up until this year) Vernon Davis. Alex Smith, I’ve given a longer leash to, but only because he plays QB and I’m a firm believer that it’s toughest on a QB when an offensive system changes every year.
McCloughan has missed enough first rounders to warrant questioning (even if Lawson and Balmer were both from the later half of the first round). I just don’t think “missing” Jackson should be on his head when every other GM missed it, too.
I’m sure if the draft was re-done today, Jackson would be a first rounder, which means every one of the teams with a first round pick originally guessed wrong on him.
Manny was taken late in the first round ...
Honestly, it’s very hard to get an impact pass-rusher at that point. It happens, sometimes.
But the simple truth is, late first round, an solid starter is a successful pick. Not an inspirational one, perhaps, but you’ve got to remember that even in the top half of the first round, a bust is as likely as an all-pro. (See Thaler, “The Loser’s Curse.”)
Balmer isn’t a miss. He’s a quality player, playing behind guys who are playing very well, who’s likely to be
I also don’t think Bass qualifies as an “epic fail.” He is, after all, starting four years after he was drafted. He’s ultimately, I think, a disappointing pick, but I think your expectations for draft success are too high.
Starting
I think the fact Baas is starting after four years is a bit misleading. The guy is starting on a TERRIBLE offensive line.
As for Balmer, I’m not calling him a miss because he isn’t producing. I’m calling it more of a miss because McCloughan took a player the team ultimately didn’t need, period. It’s not like the people crying about Crabtree instead of Oher saying that the 49ers had Morgan/Hill/Jones on the roster. The 49ers JUST gave a ridiculous contract to Justin Smith and not too long before that gave Sopoaga a pretty handsome raise. They had nothing but 3-4 DEs on their roster for the defensive line (other than Franklin).
As for Lawson, I even mentioned that he was from the later half of the first round. I wasn’t necessarily knocking Lawson because I didn’t like the pick (I’m one of the bigger Lawson apologists around here, because I strongly believe the team chose him to be more of a coverage linebacker, the strong-side OLB, and not necessarily a serious pass rusher). I was just pointing out a possible gripe someone could have with McCloughan that would hold more water than the DeSean Jackson argument.
I don’t think my expectations of draft success are that high. Along the offensive line, especially when the unit is atrocious, I think a first or second rounder should be able to at LEAST push the starters, if not start. Baas really failed to do that, and Balmer seems to be failing at that now. Baas is finally showing “something” just as his contract is up and will be a UFA (if the CBA is re-worked). If he becomes a UFA, the 49ers will probably not retain him. Balmer has two years left on his deal. When will he push the guys in front of him? Smith and Sopoaga are both here for the long haul. If he’s behind them now (with hardly a speck of even pushing them), how much time will it take him to get to that point? Will his deal be up by then, too?
I completely understand it if Lawson has a hard time adjusting to the NFL (he plays a significantly more complex role, and it’s a role he didn’t play in college). I understand it if Smith takes time (his role is complex AND he’s had no help over his first few years). Heck, I even understand it if guys like Vernon Davis or Crabtree take time to develop (WRs generally take a little time to adjust to playing NFL corners). Offensive linemen, however, are generally as plug-and-play as you get. I’m also of the opinion that the 3-4 DE is VERY similar in that regard.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on line play
I actually think WR is probably the easiest position for a player to start making an impact right away: teach him a few routes and reads, and start using him on those plays immediately.
Crabtree held out, and yet was on the field, what, two weeks after signing. Does that ever happen with linemen? Certainly, WRs improve as they get more comfortable running their routes, develop timing with the QB, etc …
But linemen just look terrible when they don’t have the technique down in the pros. Remember how bad Lawson looked rushing the passer in the preseason? For offensive linemen, the mental part of the game is very challenging – they have to make very complex reads based on the positioning of the defense’s front 7 in addition to the play call – whether he blocks down, drive blocks, or shoots through to engage a linebacker will vary – with the same play – based on how the defense lines up. (Whereas a receiver usually just has to read man or zone.) This is easier for defensive linemen,
I also think continuity matters for linemen. Trust the guy to your left, trust the guy to your right.
When I say your expectations are too high, I don’t mean to say that I think Bass has worked out. Rather, I my point is that an average GM drafts a certain number of complete busts. BAss may be a disappointing player, but he’s not a complete bust.
As I’ve said before, in the first round, out-of-the-league busts are about as common as pro bowlers. It now looks like Scotty will have drafted two pro bowlers in the first two rounds (Davis and Willis) against no flat out busts. In that context, one or two disappointing picks (particularly if they were the GM’s first) should hardly count as firing offenses.
That’s all I was getting at. You may fairly criticize Bass’s performance (and I may even join in) but that doesn’t actually imply that Scott is a worse-than-average GM. And to my mind, you don’t fire a worse-than-average person unless you’re confident you can get somebody better. That thinking is how you end up tracking Mooch for Erickson. (Bleh.).
I disagree
WR typically take 3 years to make an impact in the NFL. There is a LOT more than just running a route. Most WR have to adjust their route based on coverage, ie…single safety, they will option out of slant, and go deep, etc…if linebacker is in a certain spot, it changes things as well. Ever notice when Brady or Manning toss an INT and no receiver is near it, and they are showing them that they should have cut in vs out? It’s not that the WR forgot how to run a route, it’s that he read the defense one way, whereas QB read it another way. There was an article about Manning (I think on ESPN today) and it talked about the fact that the OC calls in a play, which has a couple options for routes, the WR and QB have to read the defense the same way, run the correct route, with correct distance and timing. That kind of stuff isn’t going on in College. They run a few routes and that’s it. What is called, is what is ran. In NFL, it’s up to WR to run the correct route on his own, thus increasing his responsibility.
As for OL. The center calls out the coverages. Calls out who is blitzing, who is getting who etc….ever think what the Center does when he is up there pointing at people on the defense? Offensive Line typically is the most “plug and play” as sfgfan said. I think you see more first round hits with OL than WR and that’s because it’s an easier transition to the NFL for OL than it is for WR.
O line transitions are easier
You can also shift players around easier. Draft a LT and he doesn’t work out? Move him to RT. If he doesn’t work there try him at Guard.
You’ll have very few real busts doing that.
If you draft a WR in the first round and he doesn’t work out you can’t ask him to play safety (unless his name is Mike Furrey).
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
You can also shift players around easier. Draft a LT and he doesn’t work out? Move him to RT. If he doesn’t work there try him at Guard.
That’s the thing that drove me nuts about Baas. I know he was injured quite a bit in his earlier time with the 49ers, but when a guard would go down, the 49ers would sub in someone like Tony Wragge rather than Baas. They wouldn’t even consider TRYING Baas. I don’t know if he was on Nolan’s crap-list or not, but him not seeing action (being a HIGH second round pick) when starters go down was quite perplexing.
Six receivers were taken before Desean
So the notion that it’s somehow obvious that we should have picked him defies logic.
Three wide receivers were taken AFTER our second pick, yet before DeSean. In other words, even if we wanted to take a WR with that pick rather than a lineman, Jackson was almost certainly not the concensus best WR available.
You can almost always find a player drafted below the player you picked who did better. In this case, because of the Cal connection, a lot of us wanted to see Jackson in a Niner uniform. But I think we need to be very careful about saying some pick was obvious just because it was confirmed by our pro-Cal biases.
Not to say we should have necessarily picked him...
…But my point was that we need a receiver like him, in the sense that he has reliable hands and speed to break away for the deep pass. We are not getting that from anyone in our receiving core thus far, and I believe that has cost us not just big yardage gain the last few years, but may have also been a contributing factor to the team’s inability to finish games. Michael Crabtree is probably the closest thing we have thus far, but there is something about his speed that is just questionable when it comes to meeting this necessity.
Short passes are statistically more reliable than long, glamorous passes, but there comes a point when the deep pass is necessary in order to put games away, not just resort to them when you are lagging far behind on the scoreboard.
Well, I like DeSean, so don't want to badmouth him.
But if we had him, and were starting a worse RG, where would we be?
You can’t throw down the field if your interior linemen can’t hold the center of the pocket.
Well, to be fair...
I’ll make the same argument I made for supporting the Crabtree selection. WR’s take quite a bit longer to develop than an offensive lineman generally does. Taking Jackson earlier than a guard would mean that by the time the 49ers solidified the guard situation, the WR may be coming around to producing. It’s the same reason why I’m not upset the 49ers took Crabtree over Oher.
could we be starting a worse RG right now????
okay, okay, I’ll stop.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yes. Much worse.
Rachal is still putting the pieces together, but he’s already MUCH better than he was early in the season.
Remember what the scouting report was when he was drafted: very raw talent, great physical skills. It will take time for him to develop the technique necessary to be a success in the pros.
Judge that pick based on how well he’s playing two years from now.
I think...
…that our woes in the offensive line don’t necessarily pertain to who is starting. I think the problems with the offensive line are a lot more basic than people make them out to be. Although, I could be wrong.
From my observation, the offensive line has simply looked like it has been physically outpowered by most other defensive lines. I think there is a strong possibility that the current players on the offensive line are simply not strong enough physically.
Again, I could be wrong…
You could be wrong but you are not.
Remember that 4th and 1, QB sneak? How the entire line just tossed and Alex was eaten up? I still can’t seem to get that image out of my head.. So traumatic..
Isn't that the damning evidence?
Our GM picks the linemen whose strength is to overpower the opponent and they fail in that aspect too.
This is why we've switched to zone blocking the past few weeks
and have been much more effective running the ball as a result.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Playmakers
Of those 6 wide receivers – did any accomplish the same things DeSean Jackson did? Jordy Nelson?
Jerome Simpson?
Devin Thomas?
Donny Avery? James Hardy?
Eddie Royal?
Most definitely not. Desean Jackson was and is now a walking, talking highlight reel. Watching every Cal game since I can remember, Jackson has been the most electrifying prospect I’ve ever seen. Now, Jahvid Best…
“Watching every Cal game since I can remember, "
RIght. But that’s the problem. You’re judging Jackson against other Cal receivers.
How’s he compare to receivers at, say Miami. Or Florida State? Or Texas?
You watch every Cal game. Your’e a Cal fan. You like Cal players. You have a tendency to see the best in Cal players, and ignore their faults.
Would you have been so high on Jackson if he played for USC? What about Texas?
You know who had a more electrifying highlight reel in college than DeSean Jackson? (And remember, I’m saying this as someone who LIKES Jackson).
Michael Crabtree.
It’s not even close, really.
I suspect that if you had watched Texas Tech with the same closeness that you had watched Cal, you wouldn’t be calling Jackson the most electrifying prospect you’d ever seen.
You probably hate me
..But the feeling is mutual.
You’re right! I was judging Jackson against other Cal receivers – I was also judging him against his opponents! Imagine that! LoL.
Look, I am not as narrow-minded or pin-headed as you may think I am. This idea that I don’t take an objective approach to everybody coming out is ridiculous. I am partial to the university but not to it’s players. Jackson was the biggest play maker I had ever seen come out of Cal. sure as hell was the fastest.
I’ve SEEN Crabs’ reel! Everyone and their mom has! What I have been saying is that “electrifying” = game speed – on the field – in pads – with a football – Get it? Desean ran a 4.35 40 yd dash at the combine – when he ran in Phili it was a 4.28.
God – I am not deaf, blind or dumb but I get this weird feeling that for some reason you think otherwise. I’ll let you run with that but remember, try to keep it about the topic – not, you this, you that – k?
No, I don't actually hate you. This isn't personal.
I just think you’re being unfair to the 49ers front office. You’re saying that Jackson should have been an obvious pick. I disagree.
QUite frankly, if people knew what he would have been capable of, he would have been a first round pick, not a late second rounder. I was surprised he fell as far as he did. At the time, I remember hoping the 49ers would grab him.
I didn’t object, however, to the pick simply because I’m a big fan of drafting linemen. I think the game is won or lost in the trenches, and that great receivers are useless if the QB is flat on his back. It’s the same reason my gut reaction was to go for Oher over Crabtree – although I was fine with the ultimate decision.
I was also judging him against his opponents!
Yes. Cal plays, most years, one top-rated team. In some years they play 2 or 3. Watching Cal gives you a very small subset of the total college game.
You will not get any argument from me about how great Jackson was at Cal. But, clearly, the conventional wisdom of pro GMs under-valued him. To blame Scotty for doing what every other GM in the league would have done strikes me as rather silly.
I’ve SEEN Crabs’ reel!
Really? Because you just said, up above “Jackson has been the most electrifying prospect I can remember.” And my point – and I’m saying this as someone who likes Jackson now, and liked him coming out of Cal – is that if Jackson is the most electrifying prospect you can remember, then you’re not watching enough prospects. It’s a GMs job to look at ALL of the prospects, not just the ones who went to Cal.
When you then say, "I was judging Jackson against other Cal receivers – I was also judging him against his opponents! " You’re being more specific and more fair.
I would probably agree with you that Jackson is the best receiver who’s been on the field for or against Cal for a long, long time. If your college football universe consists of “guys who played for, or against” Cal, then Jackson is a sure-fire first-round pick.
My entire point is that a GM’s college football universe HAS to be bigger than that. Scott McLoughan didn’t have time to watch every Cal game. The team’s west-coast scouts didn’t have time to watch every Cal game.
Remember that the argument here isn’t whether Jackson is very good or not. We agree on that point. The question is whether Scott McLoughan made a mistake of the sort that should damage his ability to hold his job by drafting Chilo Rachal over Jackson.
And that begs the question: would we be a better team, right now, if we had Tony Wragge starting at RG, and Jackson starting at WR opposite Crabtree?
I think we probably would be, slightly, particularly because of Jackson’s value as a returner. (I don’t think that we would have time to take advantage of his speed on offense). On the other hand, was that such an obvious mistake at the time that McLoughan’s job should be in jeopardy over it?
Quite frankly, no – it was a very reasonable move at the time, on the basis of the facts of how far Jackson fell in the draft. You can’t call Jackson an “obvious” pick if so many other GMs also passed on him.
This has been a theme. I cannot blame McCloughan because he saw player X the same as every other GM.
I have a huge problem with this! Mostly because McCloughan’s plan is more heavily dependent on finding talent in the draft than other GMs. Every time he gets a chance to state his case to the media, “we’re building through the draft, and merely supplementing through free agency.” Well, if he isn’t better than the curve at finding talent in the draft than his master plan is doomed for failure. In a sad sense, he doesn’t fit his own plan like a QB not matching up to the offensive system.
According to McCloughan’s plan we need Bill Walsh. He would kick down doors on draft day pursing players that the group-thinking other GM’s didn’t covet. Missing player x because everyone else did was inexcusable, he’s plan was to be better than that.
I agree that's a theme.
And I understand your criticism of it.
I actually think McLoughan’s draft record is starting to look pretty good – definitely better than average, primarily due to the absence of first-rounds busts (which are more common that most people seem to think).
What I hate about draft post-mortems though is, “find a player who vastly outperformed his draft position, and then blast the GM for not taking him.”
When that happens, it represents absence of genius – not stupidity. There is a big gap between genius and stupidity, and if people were saying drafting Rachal over Jackson was not a mark of genius, I would have zero argument with them.
But instead it’s being held up as evidence that McLoughan’s job should be on the line. And I just can’t agree with that. Why? Because you have to assume that if you replace McLoughan, you’re going to replace him with someone of average quality. (Sometimes you get lucky and that’s not the case. Sometimes you get unlucky and do worse.) And it’s abundantly clear what a GM of average quality would have thought about DeSean Jackson: don’t take him with that Niner pick.
The problem with blaming a GM for there being a player who outperformed his draft position is that there is ALWAYS such a player. In every draft there’s a fourth or a fifth round guy who kicks ass. Can you blame 27 of the league’s GMs for passing on him?
I remember Mike Shanahan, asked about if he was a genius for taking Terrell Davis in the 6th round, saying something like, “IF I was a genius, I would have taken him earlier in the draft.”
I don’t think that missing on any one given player-better-than-his-draft-position is a black mark for a GM. The question is if he finds those players more often than he drafts players who don’t deserve their draft position.
That’s how, in my opinion, you should evaluate a GM’s drafting skills. Not by cherry picking individual mis-evaluated players who everybody else misevaluated, too. I mean, if you can do that, then every single GM in the league aside from Bill Bellichek should be fired for not picking Tom Brady.
Not sure I agree, regarding the OL…
Staley has been considered a very good tackle. Chilo Rachal was looking very promising at the end of last season. Heitmann is considered one of the best centers in the game. Baas was considered to be pretty darn good. Marvel Smith would have been acceptable at tackle, as would Tony Pashos.
Life has a funny way of not working out the way you want it to. But the expected starting OL was considered a strong point of the team, with the weakest link being RT.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
You have to decide if you want to give Scott credit for players drafted in the Nolan years or not.
You can’t cherry-pick. Either you give him credit for the good players taken during the Nolan era, or you don’t give him blame for the bad ones.
I have to say, though, that given a couple of years, the picks under Nolan are looking better and better. Alex Smith, of course, is still a question mark. But that’s a huge improvement from where he was before – it’s now reasonable to see him becoming a league average starter (which is, in fact, about what he is right now). Now, nobody gets excited by a league-average starter when you’re drafting first … but that pick has been elevated from “horrible” to “middling.”
Vernon Davis was being written off as a bust by many casual fans after last season. Whoops. He might be the best TE in the league. If he’s not, he’s definitely in the conversation. That’s a good pick.
Manny Lawson: again people were calling him a bust after last season, citing his lack of pass-rush ability. And while he’s not an all-pro in that area, he leads our team in sacks. Maybe not a great pick, but certainly not a bad one – and he’s still improving.
Patrick Willis? Obviously a good pick. Easy to forget was that the conventional wisdom had Carricker as the safer pick, but he’s clearly less of an impact player than Willis.
Joe Staley? Quality left tackle. Good pick.
Kentwan Balmer? Right on schedule. We knew when we drafted him that it’d be a year before he could contribute, and even though he doesn’t start (yet) he’s a major rotation player on a very good defense.
Michael Crabtree? Again, looks like to be an impact player already. That’s a good pick although I’d be saying that same thing if they drafted Oher. (It’s possible that Oher would have been a better pick. I read one analysis saying Oher would go first or second if they re-did that draft today. But Crabtree would have gone several positions higher, too).
That group of picks already has more pro-bowlers than complete, out-of-the-league busts, and believe it or not that means you’re doing better than average even in the first round!
Okay, what about second round picks?
First, let’s talk about the pick he didn’t make. Everybody bitched and moaned about not taking Everette Brown, who’s not been an impact player this season. Let me ask you this: is there any GM in the league, today who would rather have Everette Brown than an early/mid first-round pick next year? If you offered GMs around the league the pick of either, who picks Brown?
And that trade looks even better in light of the criticism Scotty took for it. A lot of people ragged on him for that pick – not just Italia – and it was in no way the “safe” choice. In fact, the safe choice for a GM without a lot of job security is to do the opposite: you trade away future picks for current players, selling out the team’s future to keep your job for another year or two. Trade away the future, squeak into the playoffs, sign yourself to a contract extension, and if it doesn’t work out you’re fired anyway, so you don’t pay the price for the missing picks. (You see embattled GMs do this all the time. It’s practically endemic for coach/GMs). Scott displayed balls of steel by sticking to the smart, long-term plan even if meant he would receive criticism.
Chilo Rachal was ragged on by fans who thought the team’s talk of him needing a year of practice and seasoning was blowing smoke, but he’s developed this year into an acceptable player, and will probably be better still next year. Too early to judge, but not a bust.
David Bass appears to be a disappointment, ultimately not worthy of a second round pick, although he hasn’t been a complete bust, either. But that’s also interesting. The only two picks McLoughan has made which can be legitimately criticized as being less than “good” picks are the first two picks he made as a GM. Since then, every one of his picks has worked out about as planned.
I’m a big advocate of forgiving rookie mistakes. Even if you decide that Smith and Bass are both horrible picks, I hardly think those amount to firing offenses in light of how he’s done since then.
by Ronaldinho on Dec 22, 2009 4:27 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Maybe not you
but there were others who BLAMED Mike Nolan for the drafts 05’-08’. To make a long reply short.. not enough players were panning out from the drafts or from the FA signings.
This year I think we all agree we got lucky getting Crabs(Though I still would have rather gotten Oher).
McC stated before the draft that he wanted to get a power back via draft. Do you believe Coffee will ever become that back? He’s definitely a North South runner but by no stretch of the imagination is he a NFL power running back.
McC signed Brandon Jones to No.2 WR money. Jones hasn’t even surpassed Hill on the roster. And only has 1 reception on the year.
McC signed Marvel Smith after 2 back surgeries. Who in their right mind signs a OL for the money he did that has had 2 back surgeries removing disc fragments?
You worry about the money, but I think that's irrelevant ...
We’re not a cap-constrained team, and so short-term splashes of cash essentially don’t cost the team anything. Marvel was a risk, but there weren’t a lot of better options available. It’s hard to evaluate the Brandon Jones signing because of the injury, before which he was probably our #1 receiver.
I’m not willing to judge Coffee one way or the other because he’s been running behind a very poor line. It seems clear that he doesn’t have Gore’s break-away ability but even Gore – an excellent player – has often struggled this year to get past the line. So I’m not going to jump to any conclusions about coffee.
We’re not a cap-constrained team, and so short-term splashes of cash essentially don’t cost the team anything.
This is especially true of the total cap figures of players. Jones may be making #2 money, but the only amount the 49ers are responsible for (until he starts receiving game checks) is the guaranteed portion, which I think is only around $1M a year, no? If he flames out next season (whether it be injury again or he just flat out fails to break into the lineup), the 49ers won’t be hurting that badly.
I think Jones was a fairly decent signing, and one that definitely shouldn’t have prevented McCloughan from upgrading if he saw an opportunity to (like Crabtree).
Basically
lets throw what bad moves he made in 09’ out the window because the 49ers have the cap room to tolerate McC’s ignorance?
Correction Regarding my other post:
Nolan was blamed for the 05’-07’** drafts
It was January 2nd 2008 when McC was promoted to GM of the 49ers. What has he delivered since then?
He tampers with Briggs.. 49ers are forced to forfeit a pick in the draft.
Morgan right now is the brightest spot in the 08’ draft class. (Though I believe Reggie Smith and Balmer will pan out)
too go along with what I’ve already mentioned about 2009. What has McC done to make you believe that he’s a competent GM(since he has taken over that position)?
Well, the two main offseason bad moves were basically stopgap moves anyway, weren't they?
I mean, there’s a world of difference between signing a young FA tackle to a boatload of money and having him be a bust, and signing a guy who you’re expecting to have as a stopgap for a year or two while you find your RT-of-the-future and having him not pan out.
If a move is only expected to be a short-term move, anyway, then the damage is pretty short term and ultimately doesn’t matter. It may be a mistake (although once the team decided to draft Crabtree, what better RT was available?) but it was a small one, without lasting harm.
And since it was never intended to be a franchise-altering move, it seems weird to blow it out of proportion like that.
Not taking Everette Brown, and instead trading up into this year’s draft, is a move from 2009 which I think McLoughan deserves a lot of credit for.
And if you’re going to throw out all of the Nolan years (which is fair – you either give McLoughan credit for the good and the bad or you throw it all out) then it seems like you’re pulling the trigger on McLoughan awfully quick. You’re talking about the picks of Rachal, Balmer, Morgan, Crabtree, Coffee, and Smith, as well as banking an extra first-rounder for this year.
Of those picks, two are clearly in the “two early to evaluate finally, but look okay to good” stage. (Rachal and Balmer). Two looks like good picks. (MOrgan and Crabtree). Coffee is probably too early to tell, but there’s definite bust potential there, and Reggie Smith is veering towards disappointing, but probably deserves another season before we write his epitath (eg, what would you have written about Goldson a year ago?) Add to that an extra first-rounder banked for this year …
And that’s not lighting the world on fire, but it’s not bad, either. It doesn’t sound anything like fireable.
Everette Brown
Was not the only person their in the second round. Just because the Panthers went out and chose him, does not mean the 49ers couldn’t have grabbed a guy like Sebastian Vollmer.
if you’re going to throw out all of the Nolan years (which is fair – you either give McLoughan credit for the good and the bad or you throw it all out) then it seems like you’re pulling the trigger on McLoughan awfully quick.
Years before Nolan took all the blame for the draft. I’m using the word blame for a reason, which is holding Nolan accountable for drafting these players as he was before.(I also hold him accountable for any Raven players signed.)
there’s a world of difference between signing a young FA tackle to a boatload of money and having him be a bust, and signing a guy who you’re expecting to have as a stopgap for a year or two while you find your RT-of-the-future and having him not pan out.
That sounds a lot like the guy McC signed in 05’, remember Jonas? The issues with Marvel Smith is that he was obviously not in condition to play football. You don’t sign a guy that has Smith’s kind of back problems because he isn’t going to get on the field.
what would you have written about Goldson a year ago?
I thought nothing of Goldson. My opinion on Goldson now is that he’s a bit overrated since the phenomenal game against the Cardinals. He’s still forgets to wrap up when he’s tackling and he has his struggles vs the pass.
I can only hope McC is fired, before he further ruins this team(I know the Jed said he wouldn’t). If he drafts an OT early in the 10’ draft, he would gain an exponential amount of respect with me. Seems like OT has been a weakness with the 49ers for years.. yet surprisingly McC has yet to draft 1 since taking over as GM.
Crabtree's pick is why I don't approve of him
Along with Balmer. I know that every team can’t get EVERY pick right, but to go WR and not OL, in this most recent draft is ridonculous, only way my approval changes is if we trade up for Berry.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
"I seen the ball was behind me and I can't go out like that"
Niners trade up in 2010 draft!!
Huh?
Crabtree is a player who, in college, put up historically great numbers even if you deflate them for the offense he performed in.
And WR was a position of need.
So we got a player who has the potential to be an all-time great at a position of need, and you think that’s a bad pick?
"best PLAYER in the draft"
was his rating by several scouts.
It was highly unexpected and fortunate for us that he fell to “10”.
honestly, wide receiver is still a position of need.
(one who can get separation).
We went from zero to one really good WR with the Crabtree pick.
I think
we’re doing pretty well with Crabs, Morgan and Hill/Jones. Hill/Jones are the speed guys, they just haven’t had much of an opportunity to show it.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
That is pre draft and pre hold out.
Of course we have no way of knowing. Oher would have been great for the run and the pass. Crabtree has been great for the pass. Oher would have eventually taken over at LT, and been as solid as Ogden and a WR will never measure to that unless he is Jerry like and since Crabtree isn’t going out like that (LOL) I doubt it will ever be justified in my eyes, not with Oher giving up ne sack against Jared Allen, Freeney, and Mathis and playing LT.
True knowledge is knowing you know, nothing!!
"I seen the ball was behind me and I can't go out like that"
Niners trade up in 2010 draft!!
I know we'll...
… forever disagree on the Crabtree versus Oher discussion (I just finished reading the Michael Oher story as written by Michael Lewis), but I see taking Crabtree over Oher as more of a selection with a long-term view. Oher would have definitely improved the offensive line (and maybe the offensive unit as a whole) this year, but taking a WR first and allowing him to develop means that when the 49ers do finally solidify the guard and tackle positions, they could possibly also have an elite WR ready to go. It’s my belief that RTs and guards taken earlier in the draft can pretty much be plugged in and perform immediately (not necessarily elite-ly, but perform nonetheless). This is especially true when the players they’ll be replacing are guys like David Baas and Adam Snyder.
Very nice comment, Ronaldinho.
I would also add that good coaches who can develop players’ talents are an important to realizing the potential of a draft pick. We have that now. That is part of the reason the picks are starting to look better.
Baas
is instrumental in our running game. Every run play we do has him pulling to the right to get Gore to the second level. Since we’ve switched to more of a zone-blocking scheme the other o-linemen have also done better.
Baas still has problems pass blocking, but if we can get a better RT that will cover a multitude of sins. A better RT can shift to help Rachal when needed. That then frees Heitmann to move to the left and help Baas out in pass blocking. It also allows Staley to concentrate more on the outside guy instead of worrying about what’s happening with Baas inside.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Scot is doing a good job
The Yorks should fire themselves and sell the team to more responsible owners.
by More False Hope on Dec 23, 2009 2:50 PM PST reply actions
It's not always greener on the other side. Redskins spend the money, but have sucked since Synder bought.
I think it’s good that the Yorks are staying out of it. Get the right people in to run your team, and get out of the way.
Get the right people in to run your team, and get out of the way.
This is not to say that I know for sure McCloughan/Singletary/Marathe/etc are the “right” people to run the team, but I do like that the Yorks have finally stepped away from the football side of operations. For the longest time, I feel, their meddling was what got the team into trouble.
Me too.
I’m with you, I’m not sure we have the right “football” people in place, but just the fact that Jed came in and said, I’m leaving the football side to the football people, made me happy. Just write the checks Yorks.
I have to say, I think we are moving in the right direction. My big concern is I’m scared with our FO we may have a low ceiling.
Low ceiling.
Hopefully the next couple of years will prove you (and I) both wrong. I can’t decide if it’s the FO that’s got the low ceiling, or the coaching staff. I guess the FO chose the coaching staff, too.
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