GM: McCloughan or Nolan?
by supraman on Dec 27, 2009 12:54 PM PST
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I thought this was an interesting topic to expand upon.
For those who aren't aware, McCloughan was promoted from Vice President of Personel to GM on 1.02.2008
Which means that 2005 through 2007 there was a sharing of powers between Nolan and McCloughan for the GM position. I've looked around various credible sites and they say Nolan had the final decision when it came to drafting players.
Through Nolan's tenure as semi-GM he drafted players that are now the foundation of the 2009 49ers. Vernon Davis, Patrick Willis, Frank Gore, Parys Haralson, Joe Staley, Dashon Goldson, even Manny Lawson is coming along since he's been benched. Nolan saw a few of these players at the Senior Bowl, Nolan was HC if anyone remembers.
Since McCloughan's been hired as GM, his resume of notable draftees are Michael Crabtree and Josh Morgan.(Yes I understand we still have to give these players time)
Mike Nolan is also the one who brought Aubrayo Franklin over here from the Ravens.
McCloughan had 2 big signings this offseason, Marvel Smith and Brandon Jones.
Brandon Jones was suppose to be at least a #2 receiver here in SF. We let go of Bryant Johnson, who went to the Detroit Lions for a cheaper contract. Jones has exactly 1 reception on the year as of now.
Marvel Smith after 2 back surgeries was still thought to have some left in the tank. He's now retired.
It took only 2 months after McCloughan was promoted to GM to tamper with Briggs and forfeit one of our draft picks.
I question McCloughan's player evaluating skills, as he believes that Glen Coffee, who stands 6'0 - weights 209 lbs is an NFL power back. In recent news Jerry Rice has come out and said he mentored Desean Jackson before the 2008 draft and praised his receiving ability, yet the McCloughan passed up on Desean not only once but twice.
In my opinion McCloughan has gotten lucky twice with the Raiders drafting DHB and Carolina Panthers not making the playoffs this year.
If you were to start a franchise, who would you rather have as your GM? (assuming Nolan has negotiating skills)
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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It seems like neither should be an option
But drafting Balmer was one of our bigest mistakes and not gettimg Oher was huge, IMO. Can’t really say, but from what I heard Willis was a McCoughlan pick not Nolan
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Trade up for Berry Scot it's the move to make. "Who is Berry?"..............Here we go again!!
It was a mutual decision.
but like I said in the post.. Nolan had the final word on draftees and Nolan scouted Willis while he was at the Senior Bowl.
The person who you may be thinking of is Singletary. Mike admitted to wanting to go elsewhere, to L. Timmons I believe.
Willis
All the links I remember seeing said McCloughan, not Nolan, was the one convincing Singletary about Willis.
by David Fucillo on Dec 27, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
I remember reading the same thing
Nolan not trying to convince Sing of Willis’ talent doesn’t take away anything from Nolan here. Nolan was at the Senior Bowl with Willis as his HC. That game Willis won MVP. From the way I see it Nolan and McC were equally impressed with Willis but Nolan was the one who pulled the trigger.
Neither
Absolutely neither should be the main option.
I still believe both are/were terrible.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Dec 27, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
Problem with the comparison
While it’s true Nolan was in the position of GM when many of those draft picks occur, and thus had “final say,” do we really know McCloughan’s involvement in the picks? The two of them were supposedly working together, so I don’t think it’s such a simple black and white answer to your poll.
I agree with you
that the comparison is tricky. I think that maybe this is a disguised opinion poll about McCloughan’s job performance, which has been far from stellar. last off season, minus drafting Crabtree, was a wash in terms of adding new talent in areas of need (o-line, defensive backfield).
wanna hear a funny joke? the Buccaneers picked Gaines Adams over Patrick Willis
a wash?
It was far worse than a wash. If the RT situation were handled correctly, we would be looking at a playoff team.
If the Niners drafted a better back than Glen Coffee, then we would be looking at a playoff team.
If the Niners addressed the obviously weak DB situation in the offseason, then we would be looking at a playoff team.
None of these things were done and that all has to fall on the GM. This isn’t a 20/20 hindsight issue since these were the issues complained about last offseason along with a lack of pass rush.cv
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Dec 27, 2009 5:06 PM PST up reply actions
McCoughlan wanted Darius Byrd or Darius Butler and they were picked before our second and he traded it.
I agree with the RB pick but that, IMO, was a guy Sing wanted to compensate for them not geting Oher, another SEC OL. Obviously you weren’t celebrating the Crabtree pick like a lot of others, but he was atop their draft board, so can you blame them for drafting him?
Darius Byrd looks good as well as Butler so at least he has an eye for talent.
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Trade up for Berry Scot it's the move to make. "Who is Berry?"..............Here we go again!!
He also wanted Maluaga who was gone at our pick.
I remember him saying he had like 3 people set at that pick and all went right before he was set to pick.
i think the better question is
which owner would you rather have:
the yorks or a couple of oranges?
DREAM DRAFT:
Trade down #12, #80 (3rd round), and #112 (4th round) to ~18 for #18, #50 (2nd), and #82 (3rd).
1b (16). Draft CJ Spiller
1b. (18). Draft best OT available.
2b. Best CB available.
2b. BPA or trade up
3. Jordan Shipley
5-7. BPA
by MichaelClutchtree on Dec 27, 2009 4:15 PM PST reply actions
owners
I’m fine with Jed York running things. People continually dog the Yorks without acknowledging that they’ve improved recently. They were pretty bad early on but I honestly think they’ve made improvements in the way they run things over the last few years. Maybe I’m in the minority on that. I’ll still take them over a Dan Snyder type of owner.
by David Fucillo on Dec 27, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions
I'd be in that minority as well.
At least they understand what has happened to Alex with the constant offensive changes. As a matter of fact Nolan was the guy changing coordinators so I have rto cast a vote now.
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Trade up for Berry Scot it's the move to make. "Who is Berry?"..............Here we go again!!
The Yorks have supported the team completely. If McC or Nolan/Sing wanted something it was ok.
Young York is more like his Uncle Eddie and will probably be more aggressive in the offseason where he will actually prompt McC to get guys for coach Sing
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Crossing my fingers for Berry
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Trade up for Berry Scot it's the move to make. "Who is Berry?"..............Here we go again!!
sorry i should have clarified
i like JED york
its the parent yorks that owned the team the past 5+ years that are the disgrace
DREAM DRAFT:
Trade down #12, #80 (3rd round), and #112 (4th round) to ~18 for #18, #50 (2nd), and #82 (3rd).
1b (16). Draft CJ Spiller
1b. (18). Draft best OT available.
2b. Best CB available.
2b. BPA or trade up
3. Jordan Shipley
5-7. BPA
by MichaelClutchtree on Dec 27, 2009 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
Jed York is just his father's puppet
John York was getting boo’ed at public appearances— that’s why he let his wet-behind-the-ears son take over. Nothing is going to change. The ownership change is a mirage.
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 28, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Proof?
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 28, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
I love u
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 28, 2009 11:41 PM PST up reply actions
So do I.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 8:13 AM PST up reply actions
So intimate.
I want winners! I want people that WANT to win!
by FearTheTree on Dec 29, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
i'm glad I could be here to see such a touching moment
"The Football The 49ers Team has The excitement of the bear, the velocity of the deer and strenght of the buffalo.
Threesome?
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 29, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
York is a York is a York
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 30, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
I have a really bad feeling..
that McC’s going to draft McCoy or Tebow in one of the early rounds…..
McCoy won't last into the middle of the 2nd and Tebow, well, he won't go to the niners.
I think McC knows that OL, especially OT and OG are two of the biggest needs. He is watching the same games that we are.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
He watched the games the year before and still picked Crabtree and traded away the 2nd
Who knows what he is watching
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Trade up for Berry Scot it's the move to make. "Who is Berry?"..............Here we go again!!
I just want to point this out because it popped in my head last week
Based on beat writer reports from draft day the 49ers were looking to draft Tyson Jackson and not Michael Oher . . . does that make the blood start to boil?
I didn't hear that.
I heard when they were scouting Jackson, the person that really stood out to them was RJF NOT Jackson.
I believe the report was
Groans were heard in the 49ers war room when Tyson Jackson was selected by the Chiefs.
I'm with you
Since Jed has taken over things have gotten much better.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
I’d hire Nolan to be a front office guy, I thought he did a good in the GM role. If I had to make a list of positives and negatives it would look like:
Positives:
a) Finally, after a decade plus of salary cap hell he got the 49ers past the problem.
b) Cleaned out the locker room of malcontents.
c) He came in with a plan, the Raven blueprint.
d) Yes, it’s hard to figure out who drafted, signed, etc who but Nolan was proactive getting his coaching staff to work the Senior Bowl so they could advance scout players.
Negatives:
a) He doesn’t know QB talent
b) 49ers weren’t good at finding 2nd Day draft talent.
c) False advertising of players, comparing VD to Tony Gonzalez. Idiot fans to this day still try to compare VD to Gonzalez (NOT THE SAME TYPE OF TE!). Not to mention, Manny Lawson sack specialist and Kentwan Balmer as an NFL ready player
Most of my issues with Nolan have to do with coaching: indecisive, conservative, too many schemes, couldn’t lead players, bad time management, etc.
I wouldn't keep him
He got rid of Smiley, and we are suffering for that. He probably seen Baas’s head and said that is my guy. He also can only draft for defense and blew a gasket with Balmer. He shouldn’t have taken V Davis when our OL was miserable then, he didn’t build well. Our best pass rusher is Ahmad brooks not the guys he drafted.
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Trade up for Berry Scot it's the move to make. "Who is Berry?"..............Here we go again!!
I will agree on getting rid of Smiley. He paid Larry Allen to shore up the line for 2 years but said he couldn’t pay Smiley because the 49ers philosophy wasn’t to pay for guards, I dunno?
Staley, Gore and VD are good offensive players but more resources were poured into the defense.
VD was a good pick. Nolan was operating under the assumption that Jonas Jennings was going to actually play. Unlike Marvel Smith who couldn’t play before signing with the 49ers.
I’m not going to hold him over a flame because our best pass rushing OLB wasn’t a top pick or barely a pick. Lots of 3-4 defenses have that phenomenon, a huge reason why I’m against using top picks to fill that role. As Drummer pointed out, Brooks was a project of Nolan and the defensive staff and they initially put in a bid to get him in the supplemental draft but lost to the Bengals only to seize the chance later.
I don’t see Nolan as a genius but I thought he was a competent GM. He had a plan and could identify the type of players who could fit his system, for the most part. He’s probably better off spending money on an offensive line instead of drafting one. His biggest flaw is having no idea about QBs, specially how to evaluate, develop or use a QB. His second biggest flaw is his desire to be a head coach.
As for McCloughan, I have one question. “2009, explain yourself?”
I am holding Nolan over the flame because of his neglegence to the offensive side of the ball
I hold them both over the flame for drafting Smith and not following up with any help because it was easy to see that the offense was anemic. Balmer should have been a Tackle pick. Smiley (not gonna go there again). It’s hard to agree that Nolan knew what fit his scheme, as he was controlling the defense we had better results when he left. I don’t agree with McCoughlan in 09, but from 05-08 Willis, Davis and Gore is all that I see that has been good. From three years of drafting we have 3 solid starters. I can appreciate some of the FA additions, but some were laughable, we jumped all over Clements when we could have gotten Samuel, but Samuel is not as good of a tackler, but gets more Int’s. I think Scott vs Nolan can be debated with pro’s and cons on both sides, but I don’t like the fact that Nolan used saturation instead of maturation for a rookie QB. He saturated the offense with mediocrity and ddn’t give him the chance to mature in a system, but he isn’t a QB guy, so he should have waited for a better prospect.
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Trade up for Berry Scot it's the move to make. "Who is Berry?"..............Here we go again!!
Mike Nolan spent too much time with his GQ look
Spent too much time wearing a business suit rather than deal with real issues. I think he wanted to make himself look commercially viable.
Unfortunately, Nolan had a lot of power that he didn’t use and left out— that’s why he’s gone. I give him credit for bringing in an effective system of merit and accountability.
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 28, 2009 11:40 PM PST reply actions
Spent too much time wearing a business suit rather than deal with real issues.
I hate this. You have no idea how much I hate this. I despise it with the fury of a thousand celestial tempests raging furiously throughout time.
The man took 10 minutes to get dressed on gamedays to honor the memory of his dead father. He spent maybe a good half hour filling out the dress code appeal to the league and another half hour talking to Reebok. His agent did the rest, and all he had to do the rest of the season to honor his dead father was to get dressed in the freaking morning. He spent the rest of his time dealing with the football side of life. He did it poorly. That was his failing. Honoring his dead father had NOTHING to do with him being a bad coach, and it kills me a little bit inside when a man gets criticized relentlessly by people who either have no idea what it’s like to lose a parent or don’t care for taking 10 minutes a day to honor his dead father.
Blame the guy for being a crappy coach. Don’t hold the suits up as evidence of that. It makes you sound like a jerk.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think so
If you remember, Jack Del Rio of the Jacksonville Jaguars did the exact same thing. The reason was NOT to “honor his dead father”. His father was still ALIVE at the time. The business suits by Del Rio and Nolan were put on as a gesture to honor the old days of the NFL— when suits were readily wore.
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 29, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
For Nolan, there is no doubt in my mind that it had to do with his father, who was one of the guys who coached in the old days of the NFL and who wore a suit on the sideline. I’m pretty sure he said as much on more than one occasion.
For Del Rio, it’s not the same.
But I’m specifically responding to criticisms of Mike Nolan for wearing the suit. My response had nothing to do with Del Rio.
You said this:
Spent too much time wearing a business suit rather than deal with real issues. I think he wanted to make himself look commercially viable.
Do you really think that’s true? Do you really think that he “spent too much time wearing a business suit”? Something that took him ten minutes to put on in the morning and no effort to wear? Do you really think that Nolan was doing it to fool us into thinking that he was good at his job?
I think it was something that took a ridiculously small amount of his time to do once a week, and was clearly a gesture to honor the days and memories of his father.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
Reebok
They had to petition league to wear the suit and get approval. The suit couldn’t be anything but Reebok. Therefore, the suit had to be made by Reebok.
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 29, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
I understand that. What does it have to do with either: 1) Nolan’s motivations, or 2) the idea that wearing the suit somehow took up enough of his time to affect his coaching?
He was a bad coach. He also a wore a suit. The two don’t have anything to do with each other.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
The suit was an example of what he was trying to do
… making himself and the team more commercially acceptable. I believe Nolan had a misconceived vision thinking that he was going to get the opportunity to be a contender. In contary, the 49ers were condemned to be runted out. Dennis Erickson was also condemned to be runted out also. From both of these coaches firings, Mike Singletary has “sobered up” and expects to run a conservative scheme— anticipating restricted play— never to make the playoffs.
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 29, 2009 4:31 PM PST reply actions
I don’t think that the suit had anything to do with that whatsoever.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
You're incorrect
Quote in the summer of 2007 by NFL Director of Corporate Communications Brian McCarthy:
“Commissioner (Roger) Goodell took a harder look at it and he supported the issue,” McCarthy said. “In recognition of Nolan’s desire to salute and honor his father, we expanded (the policy) to meet his request.”
http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/default.asp?item=624300
So, was the NFL lying? Did Mike Nolan lie to the NFL about why he wanted to wear the suit?
Here’s another link (below the quotation) in which Amanda Christine Miller asked Nolan about the suit issue:
Why did you want to wear a suit on the sidelines?
We all have mentors, and this all started with my father, Dan Reeves and other people who wore suits on the sidelines, so as a youngster that’s what I was exposed. And now as a coach, I like to wear suits out of respect — not only to my mentors, but also to the league and team that I work for.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amanda-christine-miller/whats-my-logo-49ers-coach_b_89074.html
So, Nolan says it’s to honor his father and other mentors, and show respect for the league and the 49ers. Is he BSing us and really it’s about commercialization? If so, can you actually prove that?
by David Fucillo on Dec 29, 2009 10:44 PM PST up reply actions
The 2nd explaination is the one I heard most about
“So, Nolan says it’s to honor his father and other mentors, and show respect for the league and the 49ers. Is he BSing us and really it’s about commercialization? If so, can you actually prove that?”
IMO means In My Opinion…
Why do you say “commercialization”?
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 30, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
He says “commercialization” because you used the specific phrase “commercially acceptable.”
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
It was Nolan's attempt to politicize..
…and improve his team’s situation. The suit was a symbol of the attempt to politicize and to make himself more “commercially acceptable”— a plea to sympathy and to market himself and his team in 2007. His father died later that year. Unfortunately, it did very little to improve his situation since they ended up a dismal 5-11.
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 30, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
Clearly we have a strong difference of opinion
I and howtheyscored think he was doing it to honor, you think otherwise. There’s really nowhere else we can go with this conversation.
by David Fucillo on Dec 30, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
The problem is, even if he was wearing a suit for the "wrong reasons"
it’s absurd to suggest that his desire to wear a suit somehow hurt the team.
It’s not like it took a lot of mental energy, or was a big deal once the season got started. It was just … a suit. After the initial issue (which happened during the offseason!) it was maybe spending an extra 3-4 minutes getting dressed on game day compared to, say, Bill Bellichik, a notorious slob.
The problem with Nolan wasn’t that he wanted to wear a suit on game days. The problem was that he was a lousy head coach.
Criticizing the suit, at this point, implies that if he had just worn a hoody he’d have been a better coach, but Nolan’s problems as a head coach went far deeper than that.
I don't think Coach Nolan was a lousy coach
I just think Nolan didn’t fully apply his power as head coach or as a general manager. Being both a head coach and GM gives you so much power to do almost whatever you wanted.
"Proving 2nd class ownership is profitable"
by More False Hope on Dec 30, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
But you can still point to lots of bad decisions:
The hybrid 3-4/4-3 didn’t work. The way he handled Alex Smith’s injuries didn’t work.
Most tellingly, I think, is that there are three players on this team who a lot of people were writing off as busts under Nolan who have either a) dramatically improved their games or b) are being put in a position to succeed and take advantage of their skills.
You may not like Alex Smith (and I still have my doubts, too), but there’s no question that he’s improved dramatically with Sing as his head coach. It’s now reasonable to talk about him as a league-average QB which nobody ever did under Nolan.
Manny Lawson struggled to get on the field with Nolan even when healthy. He’s been an effective player for us under Singletary.
Vernon Davis was an effective player in his last year under Nolan, but was clearly not used in a way which maximized his talents.
Franklin’s play improved this year, as well. A year ago we were talking about his position as one that needed upgrading. Now a lot of people feel he should have made the all-pro team.
So, no, I don’t think it’s too much power. I think it’s not understanding the strengths of his players, or not being able to put them in a position to ulitize those strengths, or not giving players the instruction they needed to maximize their effectiveness. That, in a nutshell, is bad coaching.
Smith improved dramtically...
in his second year. Turner made him a functional QB, whereas before he was a flat out mess. Gore was made a stud then too. Davis outside of injuries was always effective, and last year became more of a complete player due to blocking in a complicated offense.
Well, we're waiting....
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