Mike Singletary Approval Rating, Week 16
by David Fucillo on Dec 29, 2009 7:00 AM PST
in 49ers Approval Ratings
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And so, we have one more game this season. Next Tuesday we'll have our final regular season approval rating poll for Coach Singletary. That last poll will not be any different than the rest, so if you've been considering your vote one week at a time continue to do that. If you've considered your vote in the broad picture of the entire season, continue to do that. As we move further into January we'll have polls looking back at the season that was for Coach Singletary on a broader level for all.
After the loss to the Eagles, Coach Singletary saw his approval rating dip 14 points to 82%. It's obviously not surprising that the rating dropped, and I'm not surprised it wasn't a bigger drop considering how many folks viewed the Eagles game (tough game where a win was not all that likely). Over at ESPN, Coaching Singletary's rating dipped down to 70% last week, but has quickly climbed back up to the upper 80s. In looking at their ratings and our ratings over the course of the season, it looks like he's garnered greater approval here. I don't have any specific details as to why, although it's possible more non-49ers fans are voting there and choosing to go with no, although that's just a guess at this point.
While watching Sunday's game, one of the stats that caught my eye was the fact that the 49ers have scored zero touchdowns on their opening drive this season. The only other team to equal that feat is the Kansas City Chiefs. I'd say that's not the kind of company with which you want to be. Given that stat, I thought it'd be useful to look back at 2008 to see how the team had done on their first drives in Singletary's first nine games. In those nine games, the 49ers managed two touchdowns on opening drives against the Redskins and the Bills. The other seven games the 49ers opening drive resulted in 4 punts, 2 fumbles, 1 missed field goal. On those 4 punts, two involved three and outs.
In looking over the 49ers 15 games this season, their 15 opening drives have resulted in the following:
7 punts (6 after three and out)
2 interceptions
5 field goals
1 missed field goal
Any thoughts as to how this can be rectified, if at all? I suppose this is something for the Jimmy Raye approval rating, but I included it here because as the first drive of the game, I am curious how much of it has to do with overall game preparation (as opposed to mid-game adjustments that would fall on Raye).
After the jump, I've broken down the above numbers for when Alex Smith has started and when Shaun Hill has started. I don't know if that makes any difference, but the numbers are at least here for you to do with as you like.
For comparison (because I know somebody wants to know this), the 49ers had 6 game opening drives with Shaun Hill at QB and 9 opening drives with Alex Smith at QB. Those stats break down as follows:
Alex Smith
3 punts (3 after three and out)
1 interception (on 13th play of drive)
1 missed FG
4 FGs
Shaun Hill
4 punts (3 after three and out)
1 interception (on 3rd play of drive)
1 FG
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voted yes
I’m going to start the staying positive thing for next year.
Always voted yes
the record might not be much better but the games have been closer and the team has made strides. The players believe (especially on defense) and we’ve seen real growth in several key positions (VD, Alex-compared to his early career, Goldson, Brooks, Franklin).
Mostly, heading into the off-season Singletary says that we need to pursue the O-Line and a returner…two of the most glaring weaknesses on the team. If McC wants to save his own skin he’ll give Sing what he wanted LAST off-season in order to be able to say he did his part to stock the team with the talent that the HC wanted.
"Vernon is going to be a great tight end one day, but he's got to put the whole package together." - Thanks Sing for echoing this.
by Tre9er on Dec 29, 2009 7:50 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
totally agree...
I know I’ve seen a lot of extreme opinions leaning one way or another on everything from Sings coaching ability, JR’s playcalling, Alex Smiths development, terrible special teams, LOLine…but I’d like to throw out a few tid bits that I don’t think anyone can dispute in regards to the PROGRESS the niners have made this season:
Alex Smith (at times…more often than not) has actually looked like an NFL caliber QB. That alone is more then I thought I’d ever see out of Smith. He may not be the guy to take us to ring #6, but he definitely deserves the incumbant starters role next year. We just don’t have any better options out there. I think Smith can succeed
Only one blowout! Compared to seasons past, this is a huge step up. To be competitive in almost every game, including roadies against Philly, Indy, and the Vikings can’t be ingnored as tremendous progress for Sings club.
The rebirth of the Niners Passing game…I know I know, we’re not exactly the colts spread offense out there, but for the first time since Garcia left, we actually have a passing game teams must respect. It needs A LOT of work, but it’s more than what I thought I’d see in the half-season that the passing game has emerged
Lock down D…Again, I know we haven’t exactly been “lock down” everyweek, but this D has at times been the fiercest group of guys I’ve seen in SF for awhile. And one of the biggest problems of years past? turnovers, or lack thereof…and guess who leads the leauge in take aways this year…
There are more positives to be brought up, much more than negatives I believe. I know this has been a frustrating season (as every one seems to be) but this team has grown in leaps and bounds this year, and I’m confident with a full offseason program under this teams belt, we’ll have our best shot yet at making the playoffs next year. I may actually allow myself to get excited for once during the offseason
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 8:53 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I pretty much agree with this. There are still holes, absolutely, but there are less of them than we’ve had in years.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 9:01 AM PST up reply actions
no doubt
yes the holes we have are still gaping. Although the Oline has played better recently, I still think this is our biggest concern going into next season. The line has had the biggest effect on Gore’s lack luster production this year (along with questionable coaching decisions) and has been Smiths achillies heel. It’s hard for a guy trying to finally get his nitch in the NFL after a disappointing early career when he’s getting sacked after about .3 seconds have elapsed to start a game. When Smith has had time, I’m comfortable saying hes been a top-16 QB in the league this year. We also need to see if the progress made by Brooks and our trio of outside linebackers is an abberation, or if it can sustain itself into next year. Gimmie one or two upgrades to the o-line, maybe talented DB in the draft, and could it be possibe?…..maybe even in T.O. sighting back in red n gold GO NINERS
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
I agree with both of Brave Neander’s posts, and with the positives being more worthy of note than the negatives. Let’s add that the 49ers did what they did this year after losing both starting cornerbacks and both starting tackles to injuries before or early in the season. That is quite a hit for any team to absorb, especially one that lacks quality depth. I would guess that we go into the draft/free agency period assuming that Harris retires, Clements returns healthy, Pashtos returns healthy, Snyder becomes a backup guard/tackle, Staley returns healthy, and we target two OLs, a cornerback, a safety, and a kick returner (it would be nice if this guy was also an ultrafast backup running back) for draft/free agent priority. Depending on Miller’s maturation, perhaps a fullback as well.
by seafood lover on Dec 29, 2009 9:39 AM PST up reply actions
Now, I don’t know about this T.O. talk….
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
We’d have to open up a completely new can of worms if T.O. were to actually comback, concerning how his presence would affect Alex Smith. But if there’s any coach in the league that has a shot a keeping TO under wraps, it’s Singletary. For some reason I can see TO actually having a great deal of respect for Sing. After his year in Buffalo, I think TO may actually be coming to the realization that he’s no longer viewed as the end-all-be-all at wide reciever in the NFL anymore. I’m hoping he calms down a bit in his twilight years. And if all this would be anywhere near the truth, I wouldn’t hesitate to welcome TO back next year. Remember, although we do have a more signifigant amount talent at the skill positions, I don’t think Crabtree or Morgan posess the big play capability at this point in their careers that TO still has right now
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
Only reason why I'd be ok with T.O. coming back
He seems to have finally matured mentally. If he hasn’t, the only reason why we wouldn’t hear about some kind of on or off field antics is because The Bills in general aren’t necessarily the talk of the league this season. But I do agree that Sing appears to be the man to keep him in line. Although he hasn’t made as many issues, we saw Sing do that with VD and I think VD’s maturity level this season has increased like night and day. The only thing I would hate to see as T.O. has historically done to his QB’s is to throw Alex under the bus if ever the offense does not progress next year as most would expect. That is not what a QB who looks to be coming into his own will need next year.
Next year will be the year...
Agree with most of the comments here. The season was frustrating only from the standpoint that you could see the progress being made, and we were a Brett Favre miracle, Joseph Addai td pass and an untimely Gore fumble in Seattle (not to mention some other close calls) from being 10-5 right now. Despite the OLine, despite the injuries, despite Crabtree’s holdout, and despite living through Alex’s maturation at qb, we were a few plays away from winning some close games that would have us winning the West. Coach Sing has this team believing, we have some good talent at the skilled positions and on D, and Alex is showing that with talent around him, and consistency at O coordinator, he CAN be what we thought he was when we drafted him.
This team is close. I’m talking 1981 turn around close. If we can draft well to plug the holes at OLine, grab a safety and a kick returner, and if we can get a couple of free agents to build depth in the seconary, and yes I think we need TO or someone with game breaking ability at wr to go with Crabtree and Morgan, then this team can be special in 2010.
by FunInTheSun on Dec 29, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
Improvements
Definitely a year of improvements. I’m still trying to be a fan of Alex Smith, but I can’t. Even with some stellar options out there like Davis and Crabby he still has his struggles. I know, the O-Line stinks and the system is new, I’ve been hearing that for years and years. We should have won in Seattle, and Alex had a great game there. But it wasn’t pretty in Philly and most of all, I want to see some consitency and a solid QB rating for Smith. From what I see, Alex tries to force too much and locks onto his target all too often. With a rapidly collapsing pocket, it’s hard to blame him, but a sack is better than an interception. Ok Alex, Sing is likely going to give you the starting job & with 5 years in the NFL, now is your time to shine- settle down and relax.
The Niner D has done a pretty good job of keeping us in the games, but it’s hard to watch a top 5 best run defense and a bottom 5 worst pass defense. Seems like most QB’s set some sort of personal best record when they play our boys. (Warner excluded)Very little pass rush and VERY soft outside coverage. Why do the corners play 10 yards off the WR’s on 3rd & 6? Why don’t we hit guys like DeShaun Jackson and at least ATTEMPT to disrupt his routes? Sure, we have some good (maybe great) corners, but I don’t care how good you are, there are just some receivers that are too fast to turn and run with. Am I alone here? Does anyone else notice this? We seem to get burned either way, so hit ‘em at the line Sing! Let’s see that “Physical Football” you preach!
All in all, I thing Singletary has done a good job, and the team is very close to being a legitimate threat in the NFL. A couple of additions, OLine, Kick Returner (Walker? Really?) and just can the Prevent Defense all together and we’re easily a 10-6 team. (seriously, if your D is awesome for 58 minutes, why change it for the final 2 minutes??)
Tough, but good year, and 2010 is going to be even better. The league is watching boys, so you better be ready!
I understand and generally agree with the comments about the secondary
but the way I see it, what matters in the end is how many points your D allows. They are 2nd best in points allowed in the NFC, 6th in the league. They’re doing pretty good now, and bottom line, if it wasn’t for the D in general, in all likelihood we’d be looking at no more than a 4-5 win season. If they can add that extra element to truly lock down offenses by not giving up the long ball, that would basically be gravy.
No you haven't been hearing those excuses for years...
He had an abysmal first year as a 20 year old rookie on a TERRIBLE team with top options like Arnaz Battle, Brandon Loyd and Kevan Barlow. He had a much, MUCH improved second season (as a 21 year old) which was still not stellar, but he did throw 15 more touchdowns than during the previous season, and only 5 more interceptions. The line was never good, but you’d better believe that when Jonas Jennings was actually healthy, and Larry Allen was lined up with him and Heitmann and a rookie Staley, it was a better line than it’s been this season.
The excuses have been there, but they’re sorta valid.
The truth is, when he’s been healthy, there have been some reasons why we could explain his poor to average to sometimes above average performance. Some people see the existence of those excuses combined with their self-anointment as certified pro-football analysts even though they work at Raley’s or OfficeMax or are as a podiatrist’s assistant, as hard evidence that Smith will never be a serviceable starting QB in this league, and that he is a bust.
Of course, you’d think that a decent quarterback could pick apart the Lions.
I think a barber in DET..
Who has worked for over 30 years could surmise that Millen sucked as GM there.
Well, we're waiting....
right
but it wouldn’t be based on astute, meaningful performance analysis. Just because the hoi polloi are calling for somebody’s head doesn’t mean that they really KNOW why or how that person is failing.
Well..
You’re assuming that you know that particular barber and his know his depth of knowledge when it comes to being a fan of DET for over 30 years.
Well, we're waiting....
No, I know the guy you're talking about
Frank Jones. He’s ill-informed when it comes to football.
;)
Game preperation
I’ll throw something out there: After many games this season, especially a loss, many fans (here and of other teams) often throw out the idea that the team wasn’t ready to play. I always wonder how best to evaluate that. The Niners defense has given up three scores on 15 opening drives this season (1TD, 2FG). That says ready to play. The offense has been less effective, but is that because they weren’t ready to play or that they have flaws that are as evident on opening drives as they are on half the other drives of a game? The stats likely say (I’ve not looked it up) that they play better in the first rather than 2nd quarter. But that they play better in the 2nd half rather than 1st half. If so, is that great coaching adjustments or something else?
I thought of this while watching The Catch replayed last week. Had the Niners lost (and the web existed), how many fans and analysts would have delcared that Walsh didn’t have the Niners ready since they committed six turnovers and two big PI penalties? Hyperbole perhaps, but at that time, as opposed to hindsight now, that team and coaching staff were new and had no past credibility on which to stand. I know any comparison of Sing to Walsh and the ’09 Niners to ’81 are not equivallent, but often criticism is too quick and without context.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Context
One was the defense not ready after the opening KO. That’s inexcusable but is on Manusky. To be fair to Manusky, Sing said the refs did not allow the Niners to match the changing personel of the Seahawks. Being that the officials had an awful game I’m willing to believe that excuse. The other two preceded 4th down plays. Being that both plays were great calls by Raye (1TD and 1 blatant PI that was missed by the ref) I find it hard to be too critical. I do, however, think the TO before the first 4th down was poor game mamangement by Sing/Raye since they should’ve known ahead of time they’d go for it. 3rd & 1 you should already know it you’ll go for it on 4th. The second 4th down was preceded by 3rd and long and they ened up just short in the long FG/punt/go for it part of the field, so I can better understand that.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
I get the context..
But when you have to call a TO that early, your not on the same page as a coaching staff, just like they weren’t when it came to a reverse call on a return.
That’s proper context.
Well, we're waiting....
So put in on Manusky
Or the refs. Mark the DC as a “no” on his approval rankings. But not the HC.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
LOL..
Everything but the HC, right?
I guess you gave Nolan a lot of those same excuses.
Well, we're waiting....
Nope
I didn’t. And above I mentioned where the HC is at fault:
I do, however, think the TO before the first 4th down was poor game mamangement by Sing/Raye since they should’ve known ahead of time they’d go for it. 3rd & 1 you should already know it you’ll go for it on 4th.
I put both names there since I was not on the sideline. Neither were you. So perhaps Sing did tell Raye and Raye was (again) slow to get the play in. Or maybe Sing was slow to make a decision.
I think this is more you thinking everyone but Manusky. Or wanting to make it soo much about the HC. I was no fan of Nolan and I gather neither were you. But I don’t hold Sing responsible for the sins of Nolan.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
If one person takes the blame..
It the HC. You could at least give Singletary credit for he realizing that himself.
As far as Manusky’s concerned, well, kinda hard parsing blame on him on the overall of the season since his defense is a reason why the team has won more games than it should have due to his defense.
Well, we're waiting....
Won more than it should have?
Team game. Rarely are both units equally good. One could argue that the inability of the defense to get key 4th quarter stops against Houston, Indy, GB and Seattle has kept the Niners from the playoffs. They’re right where they deserve to be based on the number of mistakes they’ve made an injuries they’ve had. This should be a team going for it’s 9th or 10th win Sunday, but that they aren’t shows that they were not good enough at times in all three phases.
I think Manusky has done a great job. I also think Sing has done an excellent job. Both men deserve credit but neither is above criticism. The defense having a mostly up season does not absolve Manusky for not having his personel on the field to open a game. Sing’s taking the blame on that is due to his being a good HC. He’s not going to put his coaches or players on blast.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Sing taking the blame..
shows where blame should go. That’s it. That’s basic coaching 101.
Well, we're waiting....
So you're agreeing with me
But want to absolve Mansuky? Guess you really want to appear as though you’re right instead of seeing the full picture. Can’t help you there.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Are we agreeing..
That if your assistants aren’t on the same page, than that’s the HC’s fault?
I mean, stuff like that happens when you’re more of an administrator than say, a guy who knows how to gameplan.
Well, we're waiting....
What page was Manusky not on?
He has his personel to open the game every week. This is not complicated. It’s expected. If any DC needs his hand held for that then he shouldn’t be a coordinator. He made a mistake. It cost a TO (which ended up not being needed thankfully) but is his responsibility. Not the HC.
Do you really think most HCs are micromanaging their coordinators, especially on the opening play?
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
What part of..
GAME MANAGEMENT do you not understand?
I mean, if you all of the sudden have issues with GAME MANAGEMENT from the opening kickoff, then who is the person to blame when you are the ultimate MANAGER?
Well, we're waiting....
Having personel on the field for the opening play
Is not game management. It’s simple. It’s on the coordinator. There was no prior play. No confusion. Just get eleven out there to match what the opponent is putting on the field. I actually think you know this. You just hate that you can’t blame Sing for it. Stop sucking Manusky. He’s an excellent DC but he too can take blame. Everything can’t be the HCs fault just like it can’t all be the QBs fault. You’ve ripped on Raye enough to know that coordinators deserve blame.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Again..
They burned all of their TO’s in the first quarter. Do you know who used to get ripped as an HC for doing stuff like that?
Mike Martz. Not very well known as a GAME MANAGER.
But he still was to blame for stuff like that.
Well, we're waiting....
Stop changing the focus
That’s already been addressed further up by me to you. Again: First TO was on Manusky. Second was on Sing. Third was a good TO and it led to a TD (you are allowed to use them). You can hang Sing for one wasted TO vs Seattle if you’ll then hang Manusky for the same thing. Although neither cost the team. We’ll let that one first half define the coaching careers of both men.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
If you read above..
The focus is on who to blame for those TO’s. You’re the one trying to blur who I should blame, when I am blaming the HC for the MANAGEMENT of the SEA game, because it was clear from the very start that the coaches weren’t on the SAME PAGE from the beginning.
Like say, the miscommunication between Sing and his Stewart about a reverse.
Well, we're waiting....
agreed...
…the coaching was terrible during the seattle game. Start to finish. Especially the finish of that game. Inexcuseable. No matter the reason for the botched reverse, Sing and his coaches have to be on the same page there
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
We agree about the reverse
Good or bad call, the fact that there was miscommunication with Sing and Everest is uncalled for. Should not happen. And that starts with the HC, which Sing admitted.
You’re blurring this with the timeouts. I see them as separate, espcially a game opening TO because the DC did not have his personel ready. He does not need to HC’s permission to send the opening eleven in the field. You and I judge that differently.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
The point is..
If you have those issues going into the latter 3rd of the season with a DC you have coached with going on 3 years now, then that’s more on the HC, especially against a Division rival in a game you desperately need.
But again, that’s what happens with a Rookie HC, right?
Well, we're waiting....
Actually...
At that point they have less than 1.5 seasons as HC/DC not three. And though Manusky was at fault I don’t hold it against him. It’s the only time that has happened, even when he was under Nolan, so I see it as mistake. Even great coordinators and HC make mistakes. So long as it is not the start of a trend I get over it. Especially since it fortunately did not cost the Niners anything. They forced a 3 and out and never needed the TO later in the half.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
maybe it was the dumb as player that wasnt ready
1st TO can’t be on the HC……that’s ridiculous
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Scott: "where should we go in the first rlott#42?"
rlott#42: "Eric berry"
Scott: "He is projected a top 3 pick though, and we don't have a top 3 pick"
rlott#42: "You have two first round picks Scott, you can't ignore the O-Line this time, plus there is depth at that position and at guard"
Scott: "Oh, but how do we get Berry"
rlott#42: "trade up, as a matter of fact give me the damn phone....brrrrrrrrrrrr,.....click "Chiefs this is Scott"........Scott this is the 49ers we will trade up for your pick if you want to move down"........Let's get a deal done, personally i dont want to be a 4-6 win team in 2010".....good, let's make it happen"
I know it's not like Child birth, but a top 5 D has been born
by rlott#42 on Dec 30, 2009 7:38 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yes when I say this team has gaping holes, I’m including the coaching as well. The Seatle game was some of the worst coaching I’ve ever seen, no doubt about it. I lay that loss squarly on Sing’s and Jimmy’s shoulders. That being said, I think we need to give our coaching staff the same time to grow and adjust just as we do our players. I will say this about our coaching staff: They seem to be doing as good a job as any coaches in the league when it comes to trying to find a system to fit our players, rather than just coming in and forcing there system on a team not necessarily built for that style of football (I.E. Nolans use of our defense, and our signing Martz as OC last year) Sing has tried all season long to find out what works best for our guys, namely Alex Smith. That alone is the biggest reason I am optimistic for next season
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
You're biggest reason for optimism..
Namely Alex Smith, is a big reason why the Franchise has been stagnant on offense for the past few seasons. The reason why? There has been way to much emphasis on Smith, and if he doesn’t pan out, or get’s hurt, the 49er still don’t have true options at that position.
Another is Raye. I seriously think Raye won’t be the OC in 2011, and the offense will regress like his offenses had on every team since his days in KC way back. The trends of OC’s having to adjust to Smith’s limitations should be a thing of the past, and that’s more on Smith and the emphasis on that.
The defense is something I’ve really never criticized, if at all. They have carried this team, and Manusky has done a great job there. Without the defense, this is a 4-5 win team, if that. The offense really does nothing to help them out when it comes to the defense getting the extra possessions due to TO’s. This is a fly to the ball defense, a swarming defense. Sure they’ll get snakebit once in a while, and they need another true stud on the d-line, but they aren’t regressing late this season like the offense is.
Well, we're waiting....
There should be a heavy emphasis on Smith, he’s our first overall draft choice at QB. Now I admit, I was one of the biggest Smith haters out there until this season. But as I said earlier, he’s at least shown the ability that he can be an NFL quarterback. Does that earn him a vote of confidence beyond next season? nope. But we have no other choice to hope that one more season with Smith will be the year he finally cements his spot as the Niners QB. I wouldn’t be opposed to drafting a QB in the later rounds in this years draft, just as long as we don’t blow another first round pick on a qb.
And as far as 2011 with Raye, you may be right. you may not be. Without studying any of Rayes past OC jobs, I would venture to say that his role on this Niners team is much different than any of his past stops. There’s so much growth that has to happen right now, it’s just to early to say the guy will be canned two years in advance
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
Whatever happens, we need to have Raye in there for next year really so we know if there is any kind of learning curve to benefit from in Alex’s, Raye’s and everybody on the team’s case for that matter. Alex has never had anyone on the staff there for him for more than a year, I think he needs that benefit of the doubt.
The fact is..
Raye has been canned after 2 years in his past few jobs as OC. Damon Bruce spelled it out after one game where his offense’s dropped in overall rating after his first year. Maybe outside of KC with Schotty or way back with the Rams of the 80’s, his offense hasn’t been to the playoffs. He simply is a stopgap, that’s it.
Whatever fans say of Nolan, outside of Hostler, he brought in OC’s that would help his QB in Smith. Both Turner and especially Martz are great at working with young QBs. The Digit System was put in place so that Smith can digest a playbook and an offense easier. Turner watered down his offense for Smith. Martz would have tortured Smith into his potential, like he did Warner, Green, and Kitna. Martz is notoriously hard on his QB’s. Warner in his autobiography wrote of brutal drills in camp. We all know Warner is a former grocery bagger to now a future HOF candidate. When Martz came in, all he had was Smith and nobody else. That’s the 49ers problem. Smith was hurt, so he didn’t get a chance to work with Martz much. But Smith had great coaches to help him outside of Hostler, who was Smith’s QB coach. Nolan may have made a mistake in promoting Hostler because of the idea that it made sense due to, again, Smith and the emphasis on him. Nolan shipped out the oft-injured Rattay because he wanted to start Smith, even though Rattay knew the WCO, and wanted to compete for the starting job. Everything, from Smith’s backup’s to his coaches, was geared towards Smith. Dilfer as a mentor, OC’s that have had success with QB’s, promoting his coach to OC, etc. Even Raye was brought in for Smith. Most OC’s looked at the QB situation in SF and didn’t like what they saw, even Martz before 2008. Maybe Nolan got fed up with Smith after making a lot of changes due to Smith. Nolan was wrong in doing that, but it wasn’t as if he didn’t try with his OC’s.
Look at it this way, it was Nolan and Smith joined at the hip. Nolan is gone.
Well, we're waiting....
I’ve never thought about our past OC’s being brought in specifically for Smith. I do know Smith was Nolan’s boy though. I understand everything you’re saying about Raye, I’m just trying to be positive about next season rather then saying “well Raye’s second yr as an OC is always worst then the first, so let’s get rid of him.” We’ve made more progress this year than we’ve ever had during these “dark ages,” and I’m just hesitant to get rid of anyone right now, in the hopes that we can get some continuity next year. But I understand your criticism over Raye
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
IMO, the OC's were brought in for Smith..
and being that there was no true plan for offense other than who would be best for Smith (even Martz, who would have been thought of as a Miracle Worker with Smith), I kinda still lean towards that.
Well, we're waiting....
I think Raye is back in 2011
though he might prepare handing off the reins to someone else. Raye’s track record isn’t very good. None of his teams have ever finished above 8-8.
Tampa Bay (85/86)
2-14
2-14
Patriots (1990)
1-15
Kansas City Chiefs (1998-2000)
8-8
8-8
7-9
Washington Redskins (2001)
8-8
Oakland Raiders (2004-2005)
5-11
4-12
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
If this Niners team improves to the point next season where Raye can be solely singled out as a weak link in this coaching chain, then I’m sure he will be gone. But until he can be pegged as a reason this team is losing, I think he will stick around. It seems like Sing loves him. I can see those two kicking back and having a couple of beers together during the week after practice. If he goes, it won’t be Sings decision. not yet
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions
Commom theme?
Not QB. He’s obviously not the most creative play designer or even play caller (though he may be better there than he used to be) so a guy like him needs a difference maker at QB. He has yet to have that. I guess his career shows he’s the guy that is good enough to get hired when teams don’t yet have the pieces they need. He creates some grounding and then hands the reigns off to someone else. Hopefully that will be Mike Johnson in 2011.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Yeah I was gonna say
Who did he have for QB’s all those years? Undoubtedly no one to speak of. Anyone care to do the research? Yes I’m too lazy to do it!
Off the top of my head
A very young Young in Tamp as well as someone else. Pats may have been Hugh Millen. Chiefs were Grbac in ’98 I think. Redskins were Tony Banks. Raiders were Collins; they actually moved the ball with Norv and Raye coaching but had no run defense, a poorO-line and turned the ball over at key times.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
QBs
Tampa Bay
1985—Steve DeBerg started. Steve Young played the last couple of games
1986—Deberg started the season but he was gone within a couple of games
New England Patriots
1990—Three different QBs played for them this year. Marc Wilson, Steve Grogan, Tom Hodson
Kansas City Chiefs
1998—Rich Gannon
1999—Elvis Grbac
2000—Elvis Grbac
Oakland Raiders
2004—Rich Gannon started the season. Kerry Collins finished it
2005—Kerry Collins
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Good research
He got DeBerg and Grogan too late in their careers, though DeBerg did have the resurgence thanks to Martyball and the Nigerian Nightmare.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Thanks guys
So of all mentioned, only two appeared to have led a team to a SB (Gannon & Collins). Yeah apparently he’s had a lack of difference makers. But you never know, Jimmy might make his swan song a good one.
Gannon
was at the tail end of his career at that point. His biggest success came 2002 when they went to the Superbowl with Gruden. He was hurt in 2003 and then again in 2004.
I forgot that Collins was the QB for the Giants in Super Bowl XXXV, though by the time Raye was OC in Oakland Collins was on the downhill side of his career.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
I never realized that DeBerg played with Montana and with Young, but on different teams.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
Deberg
I wonder if anyone remembers that like in the late 70’s or very early 80’s before the silent count, there was a game where Deberg had really bad Laryingitis. He had to have a mic put near his helmet and a speaker placed on his back under his jersey in order to be heard!
He also played a playoff game with the Chiefs where he had
an exposed metal pin sticking out of his finger. He was a tough QB
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
He also played with Testaverde and Elway
he has the distinction of being the oldest player to ever play in a Super Bowl making it to the big game at the age of 45 as a backup in Atlanta.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
Seattle loss was on the players
coaches don’t drop passes or fumble. plus coaches don’t have to call PI
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Scott: "where should we go in the first rlott#42?"
rlott#42: "Eric berry"
Scott: "He is projected a top 3 pick though, and we don't have a top 3 pick"
rlott#42: "You have two first round picks Scott, you can't ignore the O-Line this time, plus there is depth at that position and at guard"
Scott: "Oh, but how do we get Berry"
rlott#42: "trade up, as a matter of fact give me the damn phone....brrrrrrrrrrrr,.....click "Chiefs this is Scott"........Scott this is the 49ers we will trade up for your pick if you want to move down"........Let's get a deal done, personally i dont want to be a 4-6 win team in 2010".....good, let's make it happen"
I know it's not like Child birth, but a top 5 D has been born
by rlott#42 on Dec 30, 2009 7:43 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
On the flip side
O TDs by the offense on the opening drive.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will get picked in the first round.
However...
Like just about any other niner fan, I’m tired of empty promises and dashed hopes year in and year out. I’m very supportive of this team and its structure through next year. If we still see some of the mistakes on the field and on the sideline next year that we have seen made this season, especially from the coaches, then yes, I will be the first one to scream for change. Alex Smith’s contract is done at the end of next season anyway, so one way or another, we will have a final answer on our QB situation next season
I have approved every week
For Singletary to be able to make the decision to let Alex wait and learn the offense before throwing him in will do wonders for this franchise and Alex. I care more about the franchise than about Alex but as of now How GREAT we can be for years to come is on Alex and his growth, unless we become a dominating defense. Sing doesn’t bash his players in the media, nor the coaching staff, and he doesn’t reveal anything to anyone. I like his approach and what the 49ers are doing making sure they are on the same page going forward.
True knowledge is knowing you know nothing!
Trade up for Berry Scot it's the move to make. "Who is Berry?"..............Here we go again!!
by rlott#42 on Dec 29, 2009 11:18 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
1000% agreed
Sing has never lacked in professionalism and his integrity has stayed relatively consistent since the beginning. Of course there is always room for improvement on all counts, but his record so far should be sufficient to make fans optimistic.
a Yes or No vote is so black/white
So it’s been hard to vote accurately. I voted No this time, but it was more like a 70% yes. I know that doesn’t really make sense, but I just want to see SO much improvement and I figured most people were voting yes anyway.
I’d love to see consistency in the play calling, or at least a consistent offensive identity develop. I realize that offensive identity isn’t going to come over half a season, with a new QB and a new OC. I’m excited for the offseason, and I can’t wait to see how the minicamps and training camp is utilized.
vote
I agree it’s not so cut and dry. We’ll have some more intricate polling after the season.
by David Fucillo on Dec 29, 2009 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
that's why I love this place
guys like you who do all the heavy lifting, and I just get to come here and post inarticulate, rambling armchair analysis.
PS I graduated from Lewis & Clark law a few years back. I moved back to Cali (I’m from Sonoma County) and worked there for a bit. Now I’m up in Portland studying for the Oregon Bar. I mention this, because I know you’re in law school right now.
Do you go to USF law? I have a friend there right now, maybe you know her? Her name is Neg.
out the door
Jimmy just can’t adapt or make decisions to help the offense. He needs to be shown the door. You pay them big time and so they better produce. Dump the QB coach also.
can't adapt?
Didn’t the 49ers offense go from a power rushing attack to a shotgun spread style of offense in the course of the season? The problem might be over-adapting during the season. Maybe he’s made some bad choices, but to say he can’t adapt is a bit ludicrous.
by David Fucillo on Dec 29, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
clarification
Can you provide more details on why you think he can’t adapt?
by David Fucillo on Dec 29, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
cant adapt?
That’s all this offense has been doing all year. Granted, with mixed results, but still…What the coaches are trying to do may not always work on the field, but the point is they are trying to adapt to this offense. Run Heavy to Pass Heavy to a balance that we’re still trying to get down at the end of this season. If you’re going to critisize Ray, don’t do it over his ability to adapt.
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
+1
The reason why I respect this coaching staff is because they admit that they are still finding an offensive identity. If they just sat there and merely said “we’re getting better” or “we’re doing what we need to do to improve”, that would be a different story and wouldn’t give me any reason for optimism due to lack of ownership and integrity. And strangely enough, I am seeing signs that this offense is starting to develop it’s identity and truly find it’s strengths. Granted is was Detroit, but the fact that three of the offense’s best plays happened on a play action pass told me that they’re starting to figure out what they do best and use it to their advantage.
not gonna happen
whether any of us here like it or not, Sing and Raye will be back next year. It’s already been assured by York. Get used to it. Rather than look at everything in such a negative light, let’s be happy we have a great shot at a non-losing record this year, and know that we actually have a niners team to be (somewhat) confident about next year.
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Personnel
Sando posted this:
http://tinyurl.com/yhockp7
Note that A.S. has a better QB rating out of typical “run” or base formations…that is, primarily under-center and with a full-back on the field.
That is adaptation. Taking Gore’s favorite and most successful formations and finding a way to be successful passing out of them.
"Vernon is going to be a great tight end one day, but he's got to put the whole package together." - Thanks Sing for echoing this.
Offensive Line Coach???
who is he and how come i never saw a moving pocket or anything creative from the line?… maybe this is the person we need to get rid of and not the OC or the OL players…. any thoughts?
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are"
I don’t know who it is either, but if anyone had to go, I’d say it would be him. That being said, even our line has improved during the latter part of the season, even with the injuries they’ve had to indure. So even then I’m hesitant to say he should go. Remember, no matter what coach it is that people say should be fired, it’s no use getting rid of someone unless you’re sure you have someone better waiting in the wings. I’m tired of change for the sake of change on this team. I say keep everybody unless we have a better option.
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
i dont know if there’s a better option but i do know that the protection needs to improve when you play teams that have a rep. of comming up with exotic blitzes like Philly and New England… Also, i think the protection improved because they went with the spread offense. in order to exploit a blitz you need to spread the deffense and get rid of the ball quick, and thats what Alex did. i look forward to the offseason. im curious to see who the team will sign in FA and the draft. Should they sign a proven pass rusher over a rook? i know we’ve had bad luck choosing a OL in FA….
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are"
Not saying much
But I saw somewhere that over the last five games the OL has given up the least sacks in the NFC. But yeah that might have at least a little bit to do with the change of offensive scheme. Adaptation!
a few weeks ago I would have agreed that the only reason the O-line was playing better was because of the spread. More recently though, we’ve gone back to more of a base offense with Smith under center and the O-line has still held steady. That’s evident not just by the decreased number of sacks, but by the improved stats of frank gore as well
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
voted no
this time i said no because he closed the door on nate davis seeing some time to play. i mean against detroit and st louis there should been some room to at least get a look at the kid. its not like alex smith has been anything to brag about. one more reason is what they did with spurlock clearly a mistake and our sp. teams has needed help desperately.
WHy was Spurlock a mistake>
Having one successful PR for a different team after no team picked him up for nearly ten weeks does not mean mistake. It could be blind luck. Or proof that TB has superior ST blocking.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
tb
tb knew he was good because he was there before not saying he is some high profile free agent but compared to what we had with battle and no experience vs. a guy who had experience and success to me at least would be a mistake
Battle has been awful with holding on to the ball.
But he has experience as a punt returner. And has one career TD which I believe is what Spurlock had before this past Sunday.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
please dont defend battle its embarrassing for yourself. there is really no arguement here you know battle stinks come on just say it.
Did you forget to read?
Battle has been awful with holding on to the ball.
Where is there defense of Battle? I stated a fact: he has experiece as a punt returner. Did not say he was great or even good at it. I see you’ve wet the bed and embarrassed yourself.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
ok
ok sooo if he is so awful and has been then why are you standing behind the coaching descision to get rid of spurlock
Because Spurlock was not better
His most memorable play, regular or pre-season, was fumbling a taser snap before missing a wideopen VD for a big gain. Battle not being good does not make Spurlock better. It means the team had no solid, healthy returner this season. It’s unfortunate and frustrating. But it does not make Spurlock the answer. I will give Battle this: his roster spot has at least been useful on covering kicks, both KO and punt. Spurlock made a few mistakes there, as I believe it was his lane that Harvin ran right through for his KO-TD.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
spurlock may have made a mistake during preseason but battle has made mistakes all season and has not been effective returning the ball at all. spurlock has many qualities in being used in the offense as well during our pre season he actually looked pretty good. battle has been a non factor and will be cut next year you’ll see and thats sing basically making up for his mistake. your taser comment was the formation itself that was a joke and was taken out quiker than it took to implement a mistake altogether.
You're making excuses
Spurlock allowing a TD return was not pre-season. That was the game in Minnesota. His taser mistakes were regular season. Battle has been a factor in punt coverage. If you think that’s not important you don’t understand field position. I’m betting Pro-Bowl bound Andy Lee appreciates his coverage work.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Battle hasn't been a non-factor.
He’s basically worthless on offense, and he’s a terrible punt returner, but he’s a decent ST player. Probably not worth the roster spot, but not a non-factor.
Shut up...
See what happened to Painter in Indianapolis? There was just as much optimism for him in Indi as there is about Davis here…. Succeeding against 3rd stringers in preseason games does not a franchise QB make
indy knows who there qb is san fran on the other hand doesnt we are cking to see if we have a guy. so why not give the kid a try like i said already smith is not blowing any doors off.
Davis will get his shot...
If we keep Hill, then Davis and Hill will compete with Alex for second string. Second string QB will get practice reps at QB, which is something Davis HASN’T done this year.
Putting Davis in at QB right now would hamper his development at worst and do very little for the team. Bringing Davis along at a REGULAR developmental pace for a young QB is in the best interest of the team.
I dont get it
Why is everyone so hell bent on getting Davis in there? I’ve heard people talk about him on this site as if he was the second coming of Montana himself. Was a phantom game played this season with Davis as our starter where he knocked off the Colts, but the NFL was just to embarassed so they didn’t air it? I’m not saying that you’re doing that mdeasy, just something i’ve noticed. Davis will see no time becasue Smith needs every snap possible to prove whether he can cut it as our QB. If we had a QB firmly entrenched as our started next year, and say ya, let’s see us sum Davis. But right now there’s no bigger priority for this Niners team then to find out as much as they can about Smith
Why is everyone so hell bent on getting Davis in there?
I don’t know the answer to that question.
I find I’m agreeing with you a lot today.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
not gonna happen this year.
Nexy year however, is a completely different story
by Brave Neander on Dec 29, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
LOL
i think we’ve just had bad luck with QB’s so we’re desperate for a savior……BAD!!!
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are"
Rather than change, we need consistency
The biggest reason that Alex has struggled since Norv Turner left is because he’s got 5 different systems in his head. So while Raye may not be the best OC out there, it’s bringing some consistency. So to talk about making another change at OC is pouring gas on an already burning fire. And Alex is showing that with playing time AND with weapons he can progress and compete. Come on, other than Arnaz can anyone even name the all receivers we’ve had through here in the last 4 years? So 5 different OC’s, 5 different wr tandems. But the same old (bad) O Line. And the personnel is getting better…Gore, Willis, Davis, Crabtree, Golshen, etc. The only area that has not progressed as needed is the O Line. Fix that, we make the playoffs. Winning teams aren’t built in a day and you can’t keep making major changes every year.
true
One thing the Niners coaching staff and GM knew when they drafted Alex was that, as Urban Meyer said, he was a player that REALLY needed to know the playbook to a T, and needed to fully understand the offensive scheme before he was going to play decently. Switching coordinators and schemes each season was never going to provide Smith with an optimal setting to perform.
all those three and outs fall at the feet of the oline. I watched very single game this year due to having nfl sunday ticket and directv. and i can say this fix the oline now with 2 first round picks or fire someone now for it.. i feel i have seen better olines in peewee football. that’s where they are just learning to play the game. every game i was srceaming about how lousy the line was. staley was out it show how much better he is then the rest of line but when baas went down the rest of the oline stunk . and between fa and the draft the oline has got to be fix. i looked at fa and seen that the best player are defencive players oline isalmost as bad as qb’s either hasbeens and neverwill be’s.oline will have to come from draft or giving some guy a second chance. most of the good oline are expected to resign with the team he plays for now. we need new c,rg,and rt. biggest need is rt then center and rg may they take them all with first 3 picks
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