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Statistical Review of the 2008 San Francisco 49ers: II. Offense

On Monday, I reviewed the Niners' overall season stats for the team as a whole. Today, in Part 2 of my season review, I'm going to focus on the offensive side of the ball.

As I'm sure some of you have noticed, I was never a big Mike Martz fan, whether it was when he was the head coach for STL or during his tenure as 49er OC. Although I've articulated my Martz-related opinions in other Niners Nation articles and comments, the truth is that my dislike is based more on science than any 49er-related topic du jour. Basically, my problem has to do with how his offense sets players up for failure. It may produce gaudy passing yardage, but in the NFL, gaudy passing yardage isn't enough to win. And winning is the name of the game.

In the area of sport psychology, researchers have developed a unified theory of expertise that covers 5 types of skills: physical, technical, tactical, perceptual, and emotional. Physical expertise in football means having strength, speed, and agility that match the requirements of your position. Technical expertise in football means, for example, a wide receiver perfecting how he runs a dig route. Tactical expertise in football means outsmarting your opponent through gameplans, adjustments, double moves, trick plays, etc. Perceptual expertise in football means reading and reacting effectively. Finally, emotional expertise means effectively regulating stress reactions under pressure.

Martz is definitely great at the technical aspects of the game. Working on QB mechanics and WR route-running is his forte. Just ask Isaac Bruce. However, in my view, Martz has consistently failed (outside of STL ca. 1999) is in his ability to foster expert performance in his players, which, after all, is the main job descriptor of a coach. His primary failures in this regard - which were painfully evident this season - have been in the areas of physical, tactical, perceptual, and emotional expertise. Physically speaking, he installed an offense this season that didn't match the physical attributes of his players (e.g., deep routes for a slow receiving corps; dive plays for outside runners; über-frequent pass protection for big, strong, ham-fisted linemen; 7-step drops for a lumbering QB; etc.). Tactically, Martz seems to outsmart himself by trying to show everyone how much of an offensive genius he is, which leads him to call plays that are clearly wrong given the juncture in the game they were called and what the opponent's tendencies, strengths, and weaknesses are (e.g., passing too much while ahead in the 2nd half, 7-step drops against sack-happy teams, passing against bad run defenses, etc.). The perceptual aspect of his failure is well-documented: His pass offense is based on automatic, perception-anemic QB decision-making. When a defense figures out the QB's decision-making process, it's especially hard for the now-robotic QB to make an adjustment mid-play or mid-drive (See NYG game). Because a good part of NFL Sundays are about adaptation and adjustment, I never like to see an offense that frowns on its QB calling audibles. Finally, as we saw in the ARI game, and as can be testified to by Rams fans, pressure is Martz's worst enemy. His mental mistakes and my-way-or-the-highway workplace demeanor seem to intensify when inadequate players, dissenting coaches, and crucial game situations put pressure on him.

So, in all of these ways, Martz has had a habit throughout his career - except for a year in which he had one of the greatest groups of offensive talent ever - of failing to put his players in positions where they can perform at the highest level possible. What's that? You don't believe me? Well, let me show you what non-expert performance looks like, and how Martz was a major cause. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the 2008 San Francisco 49ers' offense.

REVERSE TITHING

Below is a table showing the 49ers' offensive performance this past season:

Offensive Category

Statistic

Rank

DVOA

-14.6%

27

Weighted  DVOA

-14.1%

28

DVOA Variance

4.6%

6

Pass  DVOA

-18.5%

29

Rush  DVOA

-9.7%

27

How's that for inefficiency? If the Niners were consistently bad overall, then their offense was consistently vomit-inducing. As I said in my Jimmy Raye breakdown, I wonder what Mike Martz must think about that 29th-ranked passing offense getting freeze-branded onto his résumé. I also wonder what Frank Gore thinks about being the "centerpiece" RB in a 27th-ranked rushing attack. The weighted DVOA, which I'll explore in further detail a little later, is also interesting because it suggests that the offense led by Shaun Hill was not all that much better than the offense led by J.T. O'Sullivan. But then again, I threw the word "suggests" in there for a reason.

After the jump, I'll compare the 2008 offense to the 2004-2007 offenses, break down the 49ers' offense DVOA, and evaluate their offensive line and skill position play; none of which paint a pretty picture for Mike Martz...

Star-divide

Below is a graph that tracks total offense, pass offense, and rush offense DVOA from 2004-2008:

08_review__part_2__chart_1_medium

In 2008, Martz's 49er offense was the 2nd best since 2003 in terms of total offense DVOA. In addition, the pass DVOA was a 25% improvement over 2007. That's really where the good news ends for Martz though. Going back to my "I wonder what ______ must think..." theme, I wonder what Jim Hostler must think about the fact that his run offense was as good as Martz's, and actually better in terms of ranking (25th). Also, with, in my opinion, marginally better offensive talent, Martz's pass offense wasn't as good as Norv's was in 2006.

So really, what contribution did Martz's offensive philosophy and play-calling bring to the 49ers? He didn't improve their run game, despite having a RB who led the NFC in rushing yards in 2006, and who he trumpeted during the preseason as being "the centerpiece of his offense." He improved their passing game from 2007 (albeit with superior talent), but didn't return it to the 2006 level despite having better talent than Norv did, and being known as a passing game genius. Looks to me like the stats say Martz didn't bring much of a contribution at all.

Before moving on, here are a couple of other observations about the numbers in this graph. First, as you can tell from the fact that 0% is the upper limit of the graph, the Niners haven't had an above average offense since the roster purge of 2003. Second, the 49ers' rush DVOA has been better than its pass DVOA each season since 2004. I forget. What happened in 2005? Hmmm...January and April seem to come to mind. Oh yeah! Mike Nolan was hired and Alex Smith was drafted.

HEY YOU, GET OFF OF MY CLOUD

So Martz's only success in 2008 seemed to have been improving the 49ers' passing offense by 25%. But should he even get the credit for that? Below is a graph tracking the 49ers' offense DVOA over the course of their 16 games:

08_review__part_2__chart_2_medium 

As the trendline shows, the Niners' 2008 offense was a tale of 5 seasons. The first season, Games 1-3 was characterized by a fraudulent offense that was underperforming against horrible defenses. The second season, Games 4-7, was characterized by the Martz/JTO-induced Nolan death spiral, with the "Finish him!" command coming @NYG. The third season, Games 8-11, immediately followed the insertion of Shaun Hill as the starting QB. The fourth season, which I'll call, "Where Have you Gone, Frank Gore," was characterized by a bad weather game and Gore's injury (Games 12-15). Finally, the fifth season was really just one game, an all-things-came-together performance vs. WAS. So what does this tell us about Mike Martz? Well, it tells us that his choice of JTO as the starting QB, along with the methods he used to reach that decision, cost the 49ers 4 games. Once Singletary made the move to Hill, there was a definite upward offense trend for the rest of the season, except for a few games in which Gore was hurt. I guess on the bright side, though, at least Martz/JTO got Nolan fired.

More evidence of the Hill effect comes from the following table:

Season Half

Offense DVOA

Rank

Pass DVOA

Rank

Rush DVOA

Rank

Weeks 1-9

-19.2%

31

-35.8%

32

2.3%

11

Weeks 10-17

-10.4%

25

-2.6%

22

-20.1%

32

As this table shows, the offense was nearly twice as good with Hill at QB. More importantly, though, look at the improvement in pass DVOA, and the decline in rush DVOA, during the 2nd half of the season. From those stats, we can draw a major conclusion that, in one respect, goes against the prevailing wisdom: The 49ers' offense improvement during the 2nd half of the 2008 season was due far more to the promotion of Shaun Hill than it was to Singletary's insistence on a run-oriented offense. The pass offense was 30% better once Hill was promoted, whereas the run offense was over 20% worse - and last in the league - once Singletary was promoted. In other words, Singletary's reining in of Martz had more to do with passing than running.

Going back to my discussion of expertise, my main point here is that Shaun Hill was the one QB on the roster that could take advantage of the physical skills of the players around him. When Singletary got promoted, he inserted Hill and mandated that Martz start calling plays that better fit his offensive personnel. The improvement we saw in the offense was all about physical (i.e., personnel fit) and tactical (i.e., play-calling) expertise, both of which were forced on Mike Martz by a head coach that, unlike his predecessor, didn't defer to the self-proclaimed genius.

RED MEANS STOP! (REDUXE)

Below is a table showing the 2008 49ers' offense DVOA in each of 5 field zones:

Field Zone

Total DVOA

Rank

SF 1-19

-35.2%

30

SF 20-39

-21.8%

30

SF 40 - OPP 40

7.0%

17

OPP 39 - OPP 20

-1.0%

21

OPP 1-19

-38.0%

30

OPP 1-10

2.9%

19

I know I brought this up during the season, but Martz's offense was atrocious in the red zone, and I think it had to do with his play-calling. As I showed in Part 1 of my season review, the 49ers were a descent team for only 40 yards of the field (i.e., between their 40 and the opponent's 20). Now you see that the offense was primarily to blame for that discrepancy. How does this relate to Martz's play-calling? Well, in that 40-yard window, he's able to open up the playbook and call the intermediate/deep routes that are his passing game staple. When backed up on his own side of the field, these plays can result in costly sacks and interceptions. Similarly, with a lack of space in the red zone, there's simply not enough room to run those preferred routes.

Below is further proof:

Red Zone Play

DVOA

Rank

Pass

-59.3%

31

Rush

-17.9%

29

Hello? A -59.3% pass DVOA in the red zone? A ranking of 29 in red zone rush DVOA? For Martz's playbook and play-calling, that's no doubt an epic fail. To put some perspective on this, the #1 pass offense in the red zone this season (MIA) had a 65.4% DVOA, and the #1 run offense in the red zone (CAR) had a 54.6% DVOA. So that means SF was over 125% worse than MIA in red zone passing, and over 70% worse than CAR in red zone running.

WIN TO RUN, NOT RUN TO WIN

Below is a table showing the 2008 49ers' offense DVOA by quarter and half:

Period

Total DVOA

Rank

1st Quarter

-1.7%

18

2nd Quarter

-8.4%

29

3rd Quarter

-24.1%

29

4th Quarter/OT

-24.3%

29

 

1st Half

-5.3%

27

2nd Half

-24.2%

29

 

Late & Close

-22.7%

31

To me, it's not a coincidence that the 49er offense was much better in the 1st half than in the 2nd half. Why? Again, it's a matter of physical, tactical, and emotional expertise. In terms of physical and tactical expertise, either the running plays in Martz's playbook, or the running plays that he calls during the 2nd half, are wildly inefficient. As Maiocco and Football Outsiders have pointed out, good teams run because they're winning, they don't win because they're running. When an offense can't run when their winning in the 2nd half, it ends up with the DVOAs you see above. In terms of emotional expertise, Martz sure did seem a tad - shall we say - "verklempt" in that ARI game, no?

Here's some more proof of what I'm talking about:

Score Gap

Total DVOA

Rank

Losing > 7

-13.6%

26

Tie/Losing < 7

-12.7%

28

Winning < 7

-18.6%

31

Winning > 7

-17.2%

26

Now that the infamous "Win the West" banner (and its chief advocate) is no longer on display, perhaps Singletary should put up another alliterative banner to remind his players of Martz's dearly departed offense: "Worse When Winning."

HOME, SWEET HOME

Below is a table showing the 2008 49ers' offense DVOA by game location:

Venue

Total DVOA

Rank

Home

-5.9%

25

Road

-23.6%

32

That's right. The Niners had the worst road offense DVOA in the NFL this season. "Verklempt" anyone?

DIGGING YOUR OWN GRAVE

Below is a table showing the 2008 49ers' offense DVOA under different down and distance situations:

Distance

1st Down

Rank

2nd Down

Rank

3rd/4th Down

Rank

1-3 Yds

--

--

4.0%

17

-32.4%

31

4-6 Yds

--

--

-28.8%

29

3.1%

18

7+ Yds

--

--

-19.9%

29

3.5%

18

Total

-13.4%

28

-16.6%

29

-13.6%

23

As Maiocco so astutely pointed out, the 49er offense was tied for 26th this season in terms of their percentage of 1st down running plays (43.0%). Is it any wonder then that they were (a) 28th in 1st down efficiency, (b) 29th in 2nd and mid/long efficiency, and (c) 31st in 3rd and short efficiency? Ineffectiveness on 1st down passes leads to unfavorable 2nd down situations, and too much passing on 3rd down and short leads to Andy Lee (aka ROBO-PUNTER) stat-padding opportunities.

Here's a different illustration of the same phenomenon, showing offense DVOA by type of play:

Play

1st Down

Rank

2nd Down

Rank

3rd/4th Down

Rank

Pass

-4.3%

22

-32.5%

30

-23.5%

25

Rush

-23.8%

32

-0.1%

17

7.5%

19

Perhaps Martz's reason for calling so many 1st down pass plays was because he knew his 1st down run plays were the worst in the league? Or perhaps his 1st down run plays were worst in the league because he called too many 1st down pass plays? Sounds like the ol' chicken-and-egg to me. Either way, in Martz's offense, 1st down passes put the team in a hole, 2nd down passes dug the hole deeper, and 3rd down passes covered the grave. Again, this is all about knowing your personnel and putting them in a position to perform at the highest level. If the 49er offense dug its own grave, Mike Martz was the one wielding the shovel.

THE PLAYER'S CLUB - OFFENSIVE LINE

Thus far, I think I've sufficiently proven that Mike Martz was - shall we say - expendable. Maybe I'm being too harsh though. I'm sure some of you reading this would make the argument that the players are at fault for the 49ers' offensive inefficiency. Perhaps the offensive line couldn't run block. Perhaps the RBs couldn't run. Perhaps the WRs couldn't get open or catch the ball. Perhaps...perhaps...perhaps. The rest of this article is devoted to these questions.

Here are the 49ers' offensive line stats for 2008:

Offensive Line

Statistic

Rank

ALY

4.30

8

YPC

3.96

25

Power Success

51.5%

32

10+ Yds

13.3%

30

Stuffed

21.9%

9

ASR

9.4%

31

As you can see from their ALY, the OL could, in fact, run block. In contrast, the OL's ASR tells us that they couldn't pass block. You have to ask yourself, then, "Why on earth was Martz calling passing plays so much?" Answer: A lack of physical and tactical expertise. Something else about these stats is mystifying, though. How can an OL be dead last in power success (i.e., 3rd and 1 or 2 yards), but top 10 in stuffed percentage (i.e., not allowing negative-yardage run plays)?  Both of these stats ostensibly measure strength and push off the ball. I'm still trying to figure this one out. If you have any ideas, feel free to offer them in the comments section.

One last thing I'll say about the stats in this table is that it's pretty clear that most of the 49ers' running game success (albeit infrequent) was due to OL play rather than RB play. Specifically, their ALY (i.e., an OL-focused stat) was substantially higher than their actual yards per carry (i.e., a RB-focused stat), and the percentage of running yardage gained after initial OL blocking (i.e., 10+ Yds) was nearly dead-last in the NFL.

In terms of directional running performance, below is a chart showing how well the OL blocked, and what percentage of running plays were called, in each direction:

08_review__part_2__chart_3_medium

Finally, something in favor of Martz. His most-called running play went in the same direction (C/G) where his OL was highly effective at blocking. Oh wait. Forget that. His least-called running play went in the same direction (LE) where his OL was best at blocking. So much for benefit of the doubt.

Looking at specific players, it seems as though RT is a clear limitation for the OL's run-blocking performance. Given that starting RT has turned over more times than JTO on the roster, this shouldn't come as much of a surprise. The Niners definitely need to improve their RT situation if they're going to become a better running team next season.

THE PLAYER'S CLUB - QBS, RBS, WRS, AND TES

So we've determined that, except for RT, the OL wasn't primarily to blame for the Niners' offensive inefficiency this season. Now let's look at the skill position players, starting with the QBs:

QB

Pass DYAR

Rk

Pass DVOA

Rk

Yards

EYds

Hill

156

27

-2.4%

28

1,912

1,864

O'Sullivan

-414

41

-37.3%

40

1,594

707

Obviously, this table reinforces what I said earlier about Martz vis-à-vis JTO. JTO was the 41st-best QB in a 32-team league who was so inefficient that over half of his passing yards would disappear if he had achieved them in league-average situations. Martz was the OC who chose him to start over the clearly better Shaun Hill.

Here are the RBs (if there's no ranking associated with the stat, it means that you should interpret the stat with caution because of a lack of carries/intended passes):

Player

Rush DYAR

Rk

Rush DVOA

Rk

Yards

EYds

Success Rate

Rk

Gore

111

17

-1.8%

29

1,038

1,045

47.0%

20

Foster

-67

--

-31.9%

238

179

--

--

Player

Rec DYAR

Rk

Rec DVOA

Rk

Yards

EYds

Catch Rate

Gore

67

16

2.5%

28

373

413

65.0%

Robinson

86

--

54.9%

--

202

261

85.0%

Foster

37

--

13.0%

--

133

171

80.0%

 As Niner fans, we definitely think Gore is a top 10 RB in the NFL. The stats above show that wasn't the case in 2008. Is it Martz's fault? My gut says yes. As Thomas Clayton fans, we think Foster is definitely expendable. The stats above show that was the case in 2008. Foster was a far better receiver than runner, yet M-Rob was an even better receiver than Foster. Basically, Foster isn't a good backup RB in the run game, and he isn't the best receiving RB in the pass game. Why is he still on the roster, again?

Here are the WRs and TEs (same no-ranking issue applies):

Player

Rec DYAR

Rk

Rec DVOA

Rk

Yards

EYds

Catch Rate

Bruce

154

24

5.9%

28

835

923

56.0%

Johnson

59

52

-3.7%

52

546

574

60.0%

Hill

72

--

9.4%

--

317

369

75.0%

Battle

71

--

11.0%

--

318

362

57.0%

Morgan

-6

--

-16.4%

--

319

265

47.0%

Player

Rec DYAR

Rk

Rec DVOA

Rk

Yards

EYds

Catch Rate

Davis

-55

37

-24.6%

37

358

143

63.0%

Walker

8

--

-1.1%

--

155

108

63.0%

A couple of interesting conclusions come from these stats. First, although Isaac Bruce was clearly their best, the 49ers didn't have any WRs in the top 20 of either DYAR or DVOA. Second, for all the love we give Josh Morgan, it sure seems like he has a ways to go before joining the elite WR ranks. I'm sure some of his poor performance had to do with being injured, and some of his catch rate deficiency has to do with the routes he runs, but there's definite room for improvement nevertheless. Finally, among the WRs, Bryant Johnson appears to be expendable. He was better than an average replacement (See DYAR), and top-64 (i.e., 2 WRs for 32 teams) in both DYAR and DVOA, but it seems as though Jason Hill would make a more-than-adequate replacement in the starting lineup. Indeed, Hill had the best hands on the team; which brings me to my next observation...

For all the crap VD takes about his stone hands, he actually had a better catch rate than every WR except for Hill. Now, degree of difficulty certainly has to be a factor here, but I'd say the grief he gets for dropped passes is disproportionate to the facts. My guess is that his drops come in really important situations, and so they're more magnified in our minds. Wait, why guess? Look at his DVOA. It's 37th in a 32-team league. Basically, VD's performance in 2008 can be explained this way: He was good on easy plays, but he dropped balls and was all-around inefficient on difficult plays.

BOTTOM LINE

To recap, we can draw the following conclusions from the offensive stats I've presented here:

The 49ers' offense was woefully inefficient, especially in the passing game.

•The primary reason for their inefficiency was Mike Martz. He chose the wrong QB to start the season, he installed the wrong offense given the personnel, he called the wrong plays given the personnel and its situational strengths/weakness, and he called the wrong plays with the lead and in pressure situations. In general, he simply didn't put his players in the best position to perform effectively.

The promotion of Mike Singletary improved the offense because he promoted Shaun Hill and forced Martz to call shorter, more efficient pass plays. His promotion did not improve the offense by shifting focus towards the running game.

The offensive line was pretty good at run blocking, but horrible at pass blocking. The main deficiency in run blocking was at right tackle.

The choice of JTO over Shaun Hill is right up there with the choice of Jim Druckenmiller over Jake Plummer. It might have cost the 49ers a playoff berth, and definitely cost Mike Nolan his job.

Frank Gore was not a top-flight RB under Martz, despite Martz's preseason vow to make him the centerpiece of the offense.

DeShaun Foster is expendable because he's not a good backup runner, and he's not the best receiving RB.

The 49ers need to improve at WR. Although Bruce performed well, he's not a #1 WR. The same is true, to a lesser extent, about #2 WR Bryant Johnson, especially given how well Jason Hill performed.  Josh Morgan needs some more time before becoming a starting WR of the future.

VD has better hands than you think he does. Truth is, he just happens to suck the most in the most important game situations.

OK. Done with the offense (finally). On Friday, the defense. TO BE CONTINUED...

**DVOA, ALY, ASR, DYAR, and EYds statistics used to produce this article were obtained from Football Outsiders.



Poll
What's the most important factor for the 49ers being successful on offense in 2009?
Shaun Hill starting at QB
76 votes
Frank Gore actually being "the centerpiece"
81 votes
Acquiring a better right tackle during the offseason
71 votes
Vernon Davis fulfilling his potential
44 votes
Jason Hill and/or Josh Morgan fulfilling their potential
38 votes
Mike Martz no longer being OC
13 votes
Acquiring a better QB during the offseason
31 votes
Other (Specify in comments)
9 votes

363 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 68 comments |

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Comments

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-Rolls up Danny’s stats and smokes it.-

Yessss, been awhile since I praised you. Will have an actual comment as soon as I read it in a few!

by Ninjames on Feb 11, 2009 4:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

if you're smoking...

…don’t look too closely at that directional run diagram. it might be too much for the hallucinations.

by Florida Danny on Feb 11, 2009 4:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good statistical analysis but I disagree with it being mostly Martz fault . . . it was Nolan’s idiotic fault for hiring a coordinator who everyone else in the football world had previously concluded his philosophy didn’t match the team’s personnel.

I voted Other because everything mentioned in the survey needs to happen to make this team better on offense. On the bright side, it looks like 3 of the 7 are already complete.

by bignerd on Feb 11, 2009 5:38 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

definitely a good point...

…on both accounts.

i blame martz more than nolan for the offense because nolan chose to fiddle as rome burned for the first 8 weeks of the season. on all things offense, he basically deferred to martz from day 1. it’s true nolan shouldn’t have hired him. but once he did, the offense was martz’s baby…at least until singletary. if it was martz’s baby, then he’s to blame. just my opinion.

by Florida Danny on Feb 11, 2009 6:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nolan seemed to have lost his mind someplace in 2007. We went from super conservative Nolan to despondent, delirious Nolan. I guess you can blame Martz for the job he did in Nolan’s void.

by bignerd on Feb 11, 2009 8:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right Tackle

My vote is for RT. I think this would elevate the play of any QB, help VD reach his potential, and boost Frank Gore’s performance.

by CW30 on Feb 11, 2009 5:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

That’s a solid point. I’m also on the boat that RT is the highest priority. Fooch’s post today contained an article that did sorta burst my bubble. Specifically it stated no one’s spent a top pick on a RT. In fact went on to say everyone’s RT is another’s failed LT.

by bignerd on Feb 11, 2009 8:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Glad the stats back up

that Foster was a nothing much.

I didn’t see any numbers on Robinson’s running. He was running at around two and a half per.

Also, are we seeing a downward trend for Gore? Or do we just need a fullback?

by Bob On The Coast on Feb 11, 2009 8:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

no stats for robinson...

…because he had fewer than 20 carries. no dvoa, dyar, etc. for RBs with that few carries.

gore i think has just been screwed by an inept OC (hostler) followed by a “running is for losers” OC (martz). if raye’s offense is more like norv’s, which is about 70/30 in my mind at the moment, then gore will return to glory. on the other hand, if raye is as inept as hostler, then gore will remain in the 15-20 range in RB rankings.

by Florida Danny on Feb 11, 2009 9:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve never been a Robinson fan. He’s always been too ineffective of runner to call any of those gadget plays we’ve all dreamed of.

by bignerd on Feb 12, 2009 12:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I crack up at the notion of..

putting Hill in at starter over JTO was a Walsh like decision. Hill was horrid in the pre-season. There was no way that Martz could have had any confidence in him the way he played. The general consensus amongst those who watched all 3 in the pre-season was that they were all mediocre to bad, and JTO was the only QB who looked like he could run Martz’s offense. That’s it. The only reason why Hill replaced JTO was because Smith was on IR. Everybody knew the pecking order was JTO, Smith, and Hill. Hill looked the worse out of all of them in the pre-season, and Smith was still recovering from injury (only to re-injure himself worse due to he having to, LOL, throw the ball).

The bottom line this team lacks a lot of proven talent on offense. They also have given up over 100 sacks in 2 seasons. They have given up 245 sacks since 2004. Since 2004, they have fielded some of the worst offenses in the entire history of the Franchise, The only other 49er team on offense that was as bad as the current team was the 1978 offense. The irony is that Martz took a bad bottom dwelling offense in STL, and went to making it the #1 offense, an historical one at that. The difference was the talent. The 49ers on offense don’t have that.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 11, 2009 9:25 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

i think you're engaging in a bit of revisionist history...

hill didn’t even get a chance to compete for the starting spot because martz thought he sucked. you don’t remember the whole BS “tired arm” excuse? for a guy who wasn’t even getting first team reps in practice?

no one said hill over jto was “a walsh like decision.” and you’re right that jto obviously “looked” like the best qb in the preseason. but if hill never even got a chance (because martz immediately ruled him out of the competition and came up with some BS excuse to explain hill’s elimination), then the question was never jto over hill at the beginning of the season. i mean, seriously, are you trying to say that martz should be applauded for picking the guy who was performing the best in the preseason, even though he rigged the competition to begin with?

point is…martz immediately focused on jto to be his starter. he didn’t give anyone else a fighting chance. after 8 weeks of being proven to be 180% wrong in that decision, singletary said, “enough’s enough” and made the change. it wasn’t walsh-like. it was just correct. period. if nolan wouldn’t have cowtowed to martz offensively, and said, “hey wait, mike, shaun came in and played really well last season for us,” we might have never been exposed to the jto abortion in the first place. and that jto abortion seriously screwed the niners season.

by Florida Danny on Feb 11, 2009 9:34 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I remember the 'tired arm' incident completely...

I didn’t post here when the very notion of Martz being hired was tossed about, and when it happened, I knew that he would toss the other QB’s off to the side. I knew the minute Martz brought in JTO, that he was gonna start his guy. The ‘real’ competition after that was between Smith and JTO. Why? Because the 49ers won’t give up on Smith. Sing’s decision for Hill wasn’t a ‘groundbreaking’ decision. It was a "looking at the cupboard and seeing was isn’t rotten’ type of decision. People forget this: this season was the first under Martz for the entire offense. If anybody is engaging in revisionist history, it’s you. Nobody ever stops to think how if Hill would have been the starter with a team that was bad overall, with the wide open Martz offense, how he probably would have been just as bad as JTO. Even with the scaled down Martz offense he ran in the pre-season, he flat out sucked, albeit without the starters.

Here is where you missed the whole “QB competition” thingy: JTO= Martz’s boy. Smith= ScotM’s boy. Hill= Nolan’s boy. Now, if you stop trying to put words into my post saying that I’m trying to applaud Martz’s decision for JTO, then you are using too much emotion here, and not thinking. You missed that part in my previous post where I said that all 3 QB’s looked bad in the pre-season. The only one that looked like he could run Martz’s offense at the beginning was JTO, and I knew he would flame out by mid-season at that. I also knew Martz would get Nolan fired. I saw this train wreck as soon as Martz was hired. I was totally against his hiring from the beginning. I knew about his Red Zone issues before you posted about it. Jeff Wilkins and Jason Hanson had some of their best season’s under Martz. You know, the Kickers.

I dunno, maybe people tend to forget Hill’s Dec 21st’s first half performance against one of the worst teams in the NFL. That was pure JTO like.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 11, 2009 10:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it's hard to keep track of...

…the myriad of arguments you’re making simultaneously. you think jto was the right decision (based on preseason performance), yet you knew he would be the wrong decision (based on the fact that he won simply because he’s martz’s boy). you don’t think hill got a fair shake in the preseason, yet you think he probably would have sucked anyway had he gotten a fair shake. singletary didn’t make a groundbreaking decision to promote hill, even though it worked, yet hill still sucks because he had a bad game dec. 21st. you knew martz would be a disaster, and get nolan fired to boot, yet the offense sucking was just a byproduct of it being everyone’s first year in his system.

the fact of the matter is that this season’s offense is not hard to figure out. nolan deferred to martz’s “genius” status, and allowed him to choose a disgrace for a qb in jto (which you knew all along would happen). that cost nolan his job (which you knew all along would happen). singletary didn’t bow down to martz, put in hill, and made martz scale down his offense (which you think wouldn’t have helped hill in the first 8 games had he started all along). amazingly, the offense turned around at that very moment. every stat known to man shows that a combination of hill being named the starter and singletary reining in martz’s passing game resulted in a complete 180-degree turn in offensive performance. that’s the history, and i’m not revising it.

by Florida Danny on Feb 11, 2009 10:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

first paragraph

That first paragraph might have been the most amazingly confusing set of sentences EVER.

by Fooch on Feb 11, 2009 10:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly...

my job is done here. :-)

by Florida Danny on Feb 11, 2009 11:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So is mine vvvv

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 11, 2009 11:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know what would help?...

Adding an edit function. I see how maybe my missing an “and” here and there would have made you less critical, and made you more focused to the point.

I’m sure, with your background in Journalism, that you appreciate the value of edits.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 12, 2009 2:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll make this a little more clearer..

For both you, and Fooch….

Hill
Flat
Out
Sucked
In
Pre-season
and
even
in
Training
Camp

Hey, let’s take your idea of ‘what if’s?’ a little further, shall we?

What if ScotM had fired Nolan, which is what (by Mike Silver’s report) the Owners wanted in the first place?

Maybe ScotM would have used a more thorough approach in hiring a Head Coach, and granted Sing an interview…

If ScotM hired Sing at the beginning of the season, who would Sing have hired as OC?

Given this last process, that’s a helluva question that we can’t answer.

Would the 49ers have made the playoffs if Sing was Head Coach Day 1 of 2008?

It depends on his QB.

Who would have been the starting QB?

Alex Smith.

You see Danny Boy, I wasn’t here long enough to hear your screams of “SHAUN HILL SHOULD BE STARTER FOR 2008!!!” before the pre-season or training camp started. I wasn’t here long enough for you to break down both Hill’s and JTO meager starts via DVOA and how it relates to Martz’s offense during the pre-season. I wasn’t here long enough to peruse your data projecting Sing as Head Coach before the 2008 season commenced. I was probably too busy actually watching all of the off-season moves and such to really dig into what you were working on to help us with what we would later see.

I’m just a little ‘ol 49er fan who follows this team maybe a little too closely for my own good. Maybe too closely for the fact that even with your data (I’ve read Football Outsiders way before I even knew about this site, and I think they even projected the 49ers as a 6 win team this past season), nothing posted here isn’t something I already know. Which means, nothing here can convince me outside of what I see.

You know, like Hill looking like JTO, Dec 21st. Against the Rams.

I’m sure, given your acumen with data that you knew how this whole season would have played out, the day of Nolan’s “I don’t have the trigger anymore” Presser. I’m sure you had some numbers cooked up including Hill’s first 2 snaps in the NFL before Martz was hired. But somehow, someway, it seems as if you have never watched the team during the pre-season, but only have read about it.

Compiling data means you have to have the data in the first place. That’s one really good way to revise History, my good friend.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 11, 2009 11:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

one correction

Danny wasn’t around at the beginning of the season (well at least not around here and that’s all that matters right????). He was signed off the street in the middle of the season. Really a great value!

by Fooch on Feb 11, 2009 11:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think I have an idea...

That he wasn’t, thus, the irony of my post.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 11, 2009 11:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

actually...

…i didn’t show up here until midseason, so i didn’t write up anything about hill, jto, or smith during the preseason. as my eyes saw it, jto was clearly the best qb during the preseason. the problem is that hill never got a fair shot during the preseason, so what my eyes saw, it turns out, was not the entire truth.

what you don’t seem to realize about me is that i’m not a slave to the stats. i go into every one of these posts with an open mind. however, when the stats make such an unequivocal case in one direction, i have a hard time doing anything but believing it.

another thing you don’t realize is that all i want is for the niners to succeed. i didn’t root against martz or jto every game. i don’t think hill is the savior either. i do think that both martz and jto were an unmitigated disaster, and that hill has clearly been the best gameday qb on the roster for the past 20 or so games. that doesn’t mean i can’t change my mind when the stats (or better non-stat related arguments) warrant it. in this case, however, the case is so unimpeachable that i don’t see what there is to be arguing about.

i appreciate that you read my posts, and i enjoy the spirited debate you inititiate. i hope you continue to read. just realize that you know nothing about me and my 49er fandom. you don’t know what percentage of my mind is spent looking at stats, and what percentage isn’t. you don’t know how much time i spend thinking about the 49ers every day. you don’t know how much time i think and rethink and rethink my posts. so, seriously, attacking me personally does no good for me, you, or the debate that goes on here.

by Florida Danny on Feb 11, 2009 11:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not "attacking" you...

Nor am I twisting you words here (putting words in one’s mouth), to fit into my argument. Here is a something for you to think about, concerning that issue: it shows disrespect to the poster you’re debating with. I’m not even gonna try to attack your analysis. I don’t have the time, skill, knowledge, and wherewithal to use data in that respect to something I think of as pure entertainment. Data is what it is, really. I just follow basic trends, and even look at those a little more deeply than I should. All I did was post my opinion of what I saw of all 3 QB’s in the pre-season, and judged that with what I know about Martz (bear in mind, the Rams are a rival team, and I grew to know more about Martz than I cared to, given my dealings with Rams fans since he became OC in 1999, and have read a lot of the local Beat Writers in STL since). Anybody that knew Martz’s history would know this: Trent Green was Martz’s boy, and Warner was Charley Armey’s boy. We all know what happened after Green got injured, and we all know how Martz eventually forced 2 time MVP Warner out of STL.

So now you can see how the whole “QB Competition” would have played out in SF.

I’ve been a fan of the 49ers since 1977. I’m old. I get that. I still look damn good for my young age. My Father used to be a Rams fan, so I was aware of the 49ers since I was born (he actually did something that makes sense now, by moving on with his life and gave up on the Rams, after watching his team get run into the ground because of horrible Ownership, and didn’t care when they won the SB in 1999), and I’ve recruited 2 of my nephews to become 49ers fans, whom they have never seen Joe Montana pick apart a defense in real time. They just share my pain, oblivious to the fact that the 49ers are a bad team due to bad decisions, starting with the JJ Stokes deal (one of them wanted a Brandon Lloyd jersey for Xmas. I bought him a book instead). On Sundays, we always have a BBQ, and they see me struggling on trying to find a stream on the internet to catch the game. This, after all of my Family over at the house watching Steve Young hit a horrible Owens all game for “The Catch II” (which my brother heard on the radio outside while grilling the steaks). Now, just for a little more background, he heard Starkey’s classic call on local radio here in So-Cal. They broadcasted the 49er games here, even though it wasn’t the market. I always had a shot at catching a game on radio and TV here in sunny Palm Springs, the flakiest sports market around. Now, I need the internet to get me by.

So, maybe now you get what kind of fan I am, and maybe in the future, this will lend to you treating a fan like me with a little more respect. I don’t care if you do (because I find that more interesting in a lot of ways), but that’s for more of your benefit than mine.

That being all said: if you’re an OC, with trying to not only get a HC job in the future, but help you HC keep his, then you don’t put the worst QB in pre-season out there as starter. Especially when you have no experience with him.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 12, 2009 12:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm trying to follow along in this arguement

But I just really have no idea what your point is? Are you trying to tell Danny that you knew Hill didn’t stand a chance to start the season as QB?

No offense, but Its hard to understand your point when you have 12 different arguements in every post and they are all jumbled together without any way to follow what you’re saying.

by Brendan Scolari on Feb 12, 2009 1:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Again..

Hill
Flat
Out
Sucked
In
Pre-season
and
even
in
Training
Camp

There is no argument there.

But it’s weird how that confuses, well everybody but me here.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 12, 2009 1:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To add a little more into this...

People tend to think that Martz came in cold, without at least looking at film of both Smith and Hill. That’s far from the reality. The reality is: Martz didn’t like what he saw out of both of them. He might of seen things that looked appealing, but just by looking at film alone, he just didn’t have any confidence in either of them, and the one QB on the roster who he thought might have had the most malleable clay to mold was Smith, a QB he criticized in the past when he was coaching the Rams. Forget about the effusive compliments he liberally expounds on players (cue his comments on Tatum Bell and Jeff Smoker) to the media. Everybody knows Martz smoke when the see and smell it out of his arse. The reason why he brought JTO in is because the QB situation in SF is bad. Dire. Horrid. Which is why the only QB that is a guarantee on the roster is Hill, outside of a renegotiated Smith contract.

Fast forward to the OC search, Linehan, and how the QB situation, as well as offense, will be Sing’s biggest challenge in the future, like his predecessor’s. His choice at OC is follows the same footprints.

The 49ers QB situation is worse than Tampa’s, and barring a big signing, one of the worst in the NFL. Martz made more out of these scrubs than you give him credit for. Both have had career seasons, LOL, in half of one, in both their respective careers.

Unless you count Hill’s first 2 snaps.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 12, 2009 2:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And?

So what? You’re preaching to the choir, we agree with that part.

by Brendan Scolari on Feb 12, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So it leads to..

The whole ‘why Martz chose JTO’ thingy…

I think this is your cue for whatever point you are trying to make.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 12, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't explain it any more clearer..

Than I have. If you can’t understand the basic premise everybody else seems to…

That’s your problem, not mine.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 12, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Except other people didn't understand it.

I still don’t think anybody knows what you’re talking about in some of the posts above. I understand why Martz chose JTO, as does everybody else. Whatever, not a big deal.

by Brendan Scolari on Feb 12, 2009 6:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If other people didn't understand it..

Then they share the same problem that you do.

If this is all you have to contribute as far as discussion, then you have no place to criticize anything.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 12, 2009 11:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not arguing with you...

Because that would mean you had a point somewhere.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 13, 2009 11:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The entire truth?

Seriously how much time did you spend at training camp?

It’s nice that you recognize that JTO was probably the best (of a bunch of crappy options) going into the regular season as he was really the only QB on the roster that, at that time, understood the offense. Whether Hill got a fair shot or not is really beside the point, and how do you know if he did or didn’t if you weren’t there? He looked bad in his limited playing time and there are only so many first team reps to go around. Like it or not, first impressions go a long way, and Hill made a poor impression on Martz. I just don’t see how you can fault Martz for going with JTO at the start of the season when he was clearly the most efficient choice for the start of the season. Just remember hindsight is 20/20.

I also don’t get all the Martz hate. He came in and improved the offense, in one year and without much to work with. Improvements take time and a lot of us forget that in an era of immediate gratification seekers.

by methodrampage on Feb 12, 2009 7:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"just realize that you know nothing about me and my 49er fandom."

Speaking for myself, I sincerely doubt your 49er fandom. Looks more like your so called “fandom” is a merely a catapult for your statistical analysis. Like it or not, that’s the way it is. When you post on a public forum in your “stats are holier than thou” tone expect to get some criticism.

by methodrampage on Feb 12, 2009 7:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

wow...ok...

i’m not even going to respond to that. it kind of speaks for itself, and not well I might add.

by Florida Danny on Feb 12, 2009 8:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just want to put out there

I don’t get that impresson at all. Danny’s analysis is really good but that doesn’t mean he’s any less of a “fan”.

by Brendan Scolari on Feb 12, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for defending me...

…perhaps you can convince methodrampage to pay my nfl sunday ticket bill for me…you know, the one that allows me to watch every niner game (and comment in the live thread about it) from 3000 miles away…you know, because i’m not a real 49er fan.

by Florida Danny on Feb 12, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No problem

I’m not sure why people like to hate on the “stats guys” so much.

by Brendan Scolari on Feb 12, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

fandom

I am actually curious why you doubt his fandom? Could you explain that a little more?

by Fooch on Feb 12, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was being facetious

Who knows anything about anyone else’s fandom? How do we know that you [Fooch] don’t go to bed wearing St. Louis Rams boxers? And unless we start crawling into bed with you or start doing you laundry that’ll be a question that remains unanswered.

I was unaware that anybody was questioning anybody else’s fandom so I thought it silly that Danny would bring something like that up. Everybody has motives, maybe yours or Danny’s or ninjames’ are sincere and maybe they’re not. Either way I don’t really care. I like reading the site. I somewhat care for Danny’s regurgitation of FO’s work, although I do think he puts a little too much clout in his statistical analysis’s but in the end there is nothing wrong with that. It’s what he’s passionate about and what he believes in I just have a different viewpoint.

by methodrampage on Feb 12, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

facetious

Ok, just wanted to clarify that. And I won’t ask how you know about my Rams boxers.

by Fooch on Feb 12, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

just to clarify...

how exactly do the sentences, “i sincerely doubt your fandom,” and, “your so-called fandom is merely a catapult for your statistical analysis,” mesh with the sentences, “who knows anything about anyone else’s fandom?” and, “either way i don’t really care.” it sure seems to me like you were commenting as if you cared plenty about and were a pretty good authority on my “so-called fandom.” i mean, if you didn’t care, then why did you take the time to post that on here?

i guess i have to take your word that you were being facetious, but it sure is funny how you and drummer both threw out outrageous accusations at me (not the first time), and then after they’re refuted, you come back with “oh, i was being facetious,” and drummer comes back with, “oh, i was just being ironic.” i mean, if we’re having a debate on a 49er topic, and i say, “hey, methodrampage, you’re a fraudulent holier-than-thou idiot (which i would never say),” i don’t think you’re going to take it as me being “ironic or facetious.” and i also don’t think me coming back afterwards saying, “oh, i was just being ironic/facetious” is going to remove the fact that i made a ridiculous, personal comment about you.

you and i do seem to have differnt viewpoints on a lot of things, and we do seem to have different evidentiary standards in making our arguments, but to say i’m “regurgitating FO’s work” or i’m “using NN as a career catapult” is somewhat out of bounds. i challenge you to find anything on FO’s website that specifically analyzes the 49ers’ stats. yeah, i use their stats to make my arguments, but it’s no different than anyone else looking on the NFL’s or P-F-R’s websites to find 49er-related stats to make their argument. i suppose if i used the NFL’s official stats instead, you’d say i was regurgitating the NFL’s work. or when i cite some stats maiocco comes up with in his blog, you’d say i’m just regurgitating maiocco’s work. point is, simply using stats doesn’t mean i think stats in general, or FO’s stats particularly, are gospel. it’s just a method for backing up an argument. as i’ve said repeatedly now, if someone makes a valid non-stat point, i’m going to accept it and accommodate my thinking accordingly (e.g., see bignerd’s comment above). in terms of catapulting, if you know of anyone anywhere with a larger readership than NN who’s looking for someone to write stat-based articles, and is willing to pay me enough to make a good living, please forward me to their website. you must think there’s more of a market out there for this than there really is. i’m a niner fan and a statistician, so i write stat-based articles for a niner fan blog. it’s as simple as that. if anything more comes of it, great. if not, so be it. in the foreseeable future, i’ll still be using stats to make niner-related arguments, whether it’s with my friends, on NN, or somewhere else.

by Florida Danny on Feb 12, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If I was making a case about your fandom (or lack there of)

Then “your so-called fandom is merely a catapult for your statistical analysis” would be my first accusation. But I’m not and I don’t care. Honestly, if you are a Niners fan in disguise would it really take anything away from your pieces? No, people would still enjoy your analysis, I just don’t think there as pertinent as some. Football fans are football fans (less Raider fans) in my book.

I’ll admit that the comment that I made about you using NN as a career catapult was probably out of bounds and inappropriate. I apologize for that. However, I’ll stand by the “regurgitating FO’s work” comment because, in my opinion, that’s pretty much all your doing.

by methodrampage on Feb 12, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ok...

…fair enough. i sincerely accept your half-apology (not being facetious).

just, if you feel that way about my regurgitation, make sure you take the time to let maiocco know he was simply regurgitating the NFL stats department’s work here , and the NFL Network’s work here, and tell Dan Brown he regurgitated the NFL’s work here. or better yet, tell fooch that he regurgitated tomahawk nation’s work here, and tell ninjames that his entire contribution as an NN writer is acting as “49er-related journalism regurgitator.”

basically, anyone who ever gathers evidence from another source, and then uses that evidence to form his/her own opinions and draw conclusions, is simply regurgitating other people’s work. please take the time to let them know that’s what they’re doing too.

by Florida Danny on Feb 12, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let me clarify

You’re very good at taking FO’s stats at face value, writing them off as truths, analyzing them and drawing poor conclusions from them.

For example:

The primary reason for their inefficiency was Mike Martz.

I don’t think this is true at all. Martz is a superbowl winning OC. His offenses using put enough points up to win. The reason the passing game was so insufficient was, in my opinion, due to the lack of talent on offense (specifically at QB, WR and OL). Had Martz had more talent to work with his offense wouldn’t have been so inefficient. Martz couldn’t really control JTO’s turnovers either, he was simply playing the hand he was dealt the best he could.

He chose the wrong QB to start the season

This isn’t necessarily true either. While Hill may have been the “right” QB at the end of the season or even at week 8 it doesn’t mean he was the “right” QB at the start of the season. Unfortunately for you FO does not produce practice/training camp DVOA. Much like how the LCF defaults to the NFL scout brain trust to determine who’s worthy of being a top 2 round pick you might want to consider defaulting to Martz on what QB gave the Niners the best chance to move the ball at the start of the season.

he installed the wrong offense given the personnel

Everybody and their mother knew what type of offense Martz was bringing. Again, it’s not Martz’ fault for being Martz. If anyone is to blame it’s Nolan or whoever gave Martz the job in the first place.

The choice of JTO over Shaun Hill is right up there with the choice of Jim Druckenmiller over Jake Plummer.

Again, the truth behind this statement is extremely questionable.

Frank Gore was not a top-flight RB under Martz

Ok, what’s the point here? It’s Martz’ fault Gore wasn’t a top-flight RB? Gore’s been a “top-flight RB” once so far in his 4 year career. I like Gore, I think he’s extremely talented but a top tier RB? Maybe not.

The main problem is DVOA only tells you how FO thinks a player has performed up to that point in the season, or at the end of the season for that year. It really has no bearing on the player’s true talent level. If you truly think that Adrian Peterson is somewhere between the 16th and 22nd best RB in the league you’re crazy. If you think Mewelde Moore and Le’Ron McClain are top 15 RB you’re certifiable. If you think Stephen Jackson is one of the worst starting RB in the league you’re hopeless. Take the thread where you tried to predict TO’s performance against the Niners as another example, just because FO says TO’s been playing poorly or under performing doesn’t mean that his true talent level has significantly decreased or that he’s any less likely to explode for a big game.

So in closing, yes, Fooch, Maiocco, Dan Brown, ninjames and anyone else for that matter, if you can’t think for yourself and completely and willingly write someone’s else work off as the one and only truth, you are in fact, as far as I’m concerned, regurgitators.

by methodrampage on Feb 12, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

priceless...
The main problem is DVOA only tells you how FO thinks a player has performed up to that point in the season, or at the end of the season for that year.

you do realize you just wrote that in the comments section of a piece entitled, “Statistical Review of the 2008 San Francisco 49ers,” right?

isn’t it sort of the point, then, to use a stat that tells you a player’s performance “at the end of the season?”

if not dvoa, then, what stat do you propose i use? methodrampage.com’s “my opinion is all the evidence i need” stat?

please help.

by Florida Danny on Feb 12, 2009 7:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

selective attention 101

example #1:

taking FO’s stats at face value, writing them off as truths

you continue to ignore the myriad of times i’ve said on here that DVOA is simply the most methodologically correct measurement of NFL team performance. it’s not gospel, it’s just the best thing out there at the moment. as far as taking FO’s stats at face value, what stats would you like me to take at face value instead? basic NFL stats, which don’t account for how good a team’s opponent or how difficult a team’s game situations are? these two things are purely non-statistical factors that affect yardage and scoring. if you’re not going to take them into account, then never make the argument that shaun hill only did well because he played against crappy defenses and prevent defenses in his strong performances at the end of 2007.

example #2:

The primary reason for their inefficiency was Mike Martz.

again, you totally ignored the fact that half of my anti-martz argument throughout the entire piece was non-statistical. i explained that he was the primary reason because of his ineptitude at putting his players in positions to succeed. as i also said, non-statistically, part of the reason the offense turned around at midseason was because singletary reined in martz’s intermediate/deep passing fetish.

example #3:

The choice of JTO over Shaun Hill is right up there with the choice of Jim Druckenmiller over Jake Plummer.

Again, the truth behind this statement is extremely questionable.

last i checked, i didn’t make any statistical argument here. it was purely an opinion. nowhere did i compare hill/jto to druckenmiller/plummer statistically. clearly, there’s no way of statistically testing that hypothesis anyway, even if i wanted to.

example #4:

Ok, what’s the point here? It’s Martz’ fault Gore wasn’t a top-flight RB?

again, you ignored the non-statistical half of my argument. i said martz was at fault in the context of his preseason proclamations that gore would be the centerpiece of his offense. in another section, i said gore must wonder how he ended up being the 27th-best RB after his OC said he was going to be the centerpiece of the offense. in saying one thing about gore, and then delivering up a hostler-esque run offense despite gore, martz is most definitely to blame.

by Florida Danny on Feb 12, 2009 8:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok fair enough

DVOA is awesome and you should stick to your stats because you’re nonstatical opinions are weak.

Look, you may subscribe to FO’s methodology, I don’t, I think it’s limitted. It may be the better than “traditional” stats but it still doesn’t mean its pertinent. I don’t think Football lends itself to the kind of statiscal analysis that other sports do, like baseball. I think football is highly situation and there are too many factors to account for. Ultimately DVOA is a cool concept but it falls short.

Again, this is just one person’s opinion and I’d prefer to move on.

by methodrampage on Feb 13, 2009 8:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just a minor...

… issue. While I don’t completely dislike FO’s stats, I am very skeptical of them and don’t believe they can be the only thing used to draw conclusions.

In any case, I don’t think method was ignoring your repeated points about how DVOA (or any other FO produced statistic) is limited. I think you make it very clear that they aren’t gospel and they aren’t the end-all-be-all. I think the issue method (and I, sometimes) have is that FO’s statistics AREN’T gospel, but the conclusions you draw from them can sound very certain/concrete, as if they are gospel.

I understand you’re just trying to infuse your opinion on things, much like the rest of us here are. It’s just confusing, sometimes, that your arguments (not necessarily this one) can be very FO-oriented, but then at the same time you try to preach that FO isn’t really the end-all-be-all.

Again, I understand that strong conclusions make for great journalism, but maybe a little bit of “grey area” in your conclusions could help hammer home the point that you don’t feel like FO is the end-all, be-all.

I’m not method, but I think this may help clarify his thoughts, at least for example #1 you have above. If not, it is still my opinion, and just a minor opinion. I don’t really want to turn it into a big discussion or anything like that. As I said, you can trust whatever you want to trust and write what you want to write.

by sfgfan on Feb 13, 2009 9:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nicely said

You’re much more diplomatic than I.

by methodrampage on Feb 13, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that's a fair point...

…and it’s well-taken.

i suppose the issue seems to be that i try to mix statistical and non-statistical arguments to make my point. i guess because i’m using an advanced NFL stat developed through a scientific method, instead of a simple “let’s tally up the yards, tds, turnovers, etc.” method, people (read method and drummer) hold my conclusions to a scientifically rigorous standard. it’s not as if i’m submitting these pieces to a scientific journal or anything, and, many times, it seems that method and drummer think i am (or at least trying to “catapult” my career based on them).

like i said previously, all i’m doing is making an argument, and using the best stats currently available to support it. method especially seems to be totally against the use of stats in football analysis. if that’s his opinion, so be it. he’s made it pretty clear over and over and over again, yet he continues to bash me, DVOA, and FO for, it seems, self-auditory reasons. when fooch or anyone else includes NFL stats in their posts, there’s no fiery methodrampage backlash. he definintely argues with other people’s non-stat arguments, but i’m the only one he argues with about stats even though NFL stats are ubiquitous on NN and everywhere else in media.

so while i agree that confuson can arise from my mixing of stat and non-stat arguments, which i’ll definitely keep in mind from here on out, i just don’t think method is ever going to be appeased by anything i write. that’s fine, because i welcome valid and constructive criticism. method’s act just gets tiresome, and my attempts at rebutting his arguments seem to be go nowhere. if he wanted to debate the merits of DVOA or other stat-related issues, i’d be happy to. all he seems to want to do is bash me personally (see his challenging of my fandom) and what i write. like i said, it’s tiresome already.

by Florida Danny on Feb 13, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yawn...

Now I’m tired.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Feb 13, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Again..

Becuase Danny is the King of Misrepresentation:

I have never said he uses FO or DVOA to catapult his career. He actually said that in another article’s comment section. Nor do I hold Danny to a " rigorous scientific standard". I only hold a poster’s idea to these 2 standards alone:

Integrity and honesty.

Thus, my disagreements with Danny.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 14, 2009 1:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To clarify...

a sentence of mine..

“I only hold a poster’s idea to these 2 standards alone”…

Here is the proper application…:

“I only hold a poster’s analysis to these 2 standards alone”….

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 14, 2009 2:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's get something straight here..

My original post didn’t have anything to do with your DVOA analysis. You can go ahead and quote it, and show me where I singled you out. The whole Hill over JTO debate happened way before you ever brought it up. You’re the one, I repeat, you’re the one, that tried to put your words into my posts. You have a problem with anybody that disagrees with your articles. Guess what? That happens to people who write articles. You really need to grow a tougher skin, because if you don’t, then you will find yourself getting hurt more often than not.

A while back, I brought up the notion of how a Blogger can run into problems when the Blog becomes a sort of “Vanity Project”. You are running into that very problem. You’re basically having a mini meltdown over this. Again, my original post didn’t single you out, nor did I ever question your fandom. My original post is something to which I think I brought up in another comment section in another article before this one. You derailed this thread so far off of the tracks that the train is heading into the ocean.

If you want Fanboi’s, then post your article over at the Webzone’s or .Com’s message boards. You might find more people to take your side in all this, which it seems in this thread, is what you’re really after.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 12, 2009 11:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i think you're way off base here...

i was in the midst of a normal debate with you about the qb thing, when you started using the “danny boys” and the, “maybe if you weren’t neck deep into your stats and actualy watched a few games” crap. you wanted quotes, here you go:

I wasn’t here long enough to peruse your data projecting Sing as Head Coach before the 2008 season commenced. I was probably too busy actually watching all of the off-season moves and such to really dig into what you were working on to help us with what we would later see.

and

But somehow, someway, it seems as if you have never watched the team during the pre-season, but only have read about it.

perhaps i misinterpeted you saying i basically don’t follow the niners at all outside of their stats as an attack on my fandom. my fault.

you’ll notice that after that point, my entire argument on here has been with methodrampage, not you. you said what you said, and i was fine to drop it after briefly defending myself. then method says some stuff that’s totally out of line (as he’s apt to do), and so i’ve been defending myself in the subsequent posts. i’m not melting down. others can attest to the fact that i’m actually finding this whole thing with methodrampage hilarious because of its absurdity.

as i said in my response to sfgfan, i welcome criticism and debate. this isn’t a “vanity piece.” i’m just trying to give 49er fans 49er-related info that they don’t get anywhere else, and offer my opinions in the process. if you disagree with my opinions or stat-based conclusions, let’s debate them. if we disagree, we disagree. what i won’t sit around and tolerate is when people start bashing me personally. i’m here posting on a 49er fan website because fooch saw a comment i made on another 49er fan forum, i literally eat, sleep, and breathe 49ers, i have the sunday ticket so i can watch the niners from 3k miles away, i’ve been a niner fan since i’m 6, i spend about 12 hours on each one of these posts. with all that, i come on one day and have you and method turning a civilized debate into a question of whether or not i’m some stat junky who doesn’t follow the niners, doesn’t know anything about the niners, and couldn’t care less about anything except furthering my own statistical agenda.

that (site decorum) ain’t gonna fly. bash my conclusions, bash my stats, bash my grammar, whatever. i take it all into account, and if points are valid, i gladly adjust. just don’t start attacking me personally.

by Florida Danny on Feb 13, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I'm not off base here..

First of all, you posted that I was using “Revisionist History”. I’m not making this stuff up as I go along. I’ve clarified my position many time over here, based on what actually happened, and why. The, you go and try to project all kinds of things that wasn’t anywhere near the premise of my posts, and trying to put your words into it. Then, you go and say I don’t make any sense, and then say “your work is done here”. Guess what? I still have you on the clock.

You’re being both petulant and arrogant at the same time in this thread. We can go on and split this hair until it can only be scoped by NASA. But there was no way I ever questioned your fandom, and no way did I attack you personally, and even now, my response on a defensive position, due to your erroneous accusations. Again, and it’s stupid that I have to repeat this over and over again: my original post had nothing to do with your DVOA analysis. I just expounded the Hill/JTO pre-season thingy, and put it in it’s proper historical perspective. The reason why I added the “irony” parts of my later post, was because I know you weren’t around here to post when those issues came up. I used that to illustrate you being a “revisionist” historian by trying to project something that wasn’t there to begin with. How did you try and do that? By useing the same analysis that form the people who projected the 49ers a 5-6 win team, and even they wouldn’t speculate the Hill/Sing combination going to the playoffs at the beginning of the season, because that didn’t happen until Nolan was fired. One of the reasons why they projected the 49ers a 5-6 win team?

Because of the QBs.

Even your Druck over Plummer thingy is weak. I mean, seriously, how can anybody judge on 136 starts to 1? I’m not saying (and please, don’t try and say it for me) the Druck is a better QB than Plummer (who I wanted in that horrid draft). But hey, even a “numbers” guy like you should be able to recognize that math. You see, even a mathematically challenged dude in myself can see you prepare that smoke to try and justify Hill. That’s not flat out bad analysis. That’s just flat out bad journalism in general.

My thing is this: your justification of Hill, and how you project him, has no basis on what the reality of the situation was at the time, because he was no way the best QB at the time to run Martz’s offense. You know what? He still can’t run a pure Martz offense. What you miss is this: both Turner and Martz (who have coached some prolific passers that have won Super Bowls) had to scale down their passing games due to the horrid QB situation in SF. Do you know that that leads to?

Jimmy Raye.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 14, 2009 12:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To add..

sorry for some typos and grammar gaffs in my above post. I’m tired after working a 15 hour day, and I don’t want bablue to get even more confused than he already is.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Feb 14, 2009 12:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

vote

I voted other for the simple reason of our defense going through entire games with getting a sack. There was some games we just could not get any pressure on the quarterback. It is time to get that Big DT and LE and OLB/DE. No pressure no wins!

Cream

by chriscream on Feb 12, 2009 8:54 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think...

… the question/poll was about the success of the offense. I can sort of see how sacks help the offense (i.e. field position and all that good stuff), but perhaps you misunderstood the question?

by sfgfan on Feb 12, 2009 8:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Florida Danny, That was Awesome

Thank you so, so much for putting that much time into things.

I’ve come away with two conclusions from the numbers:

2006 Alex Smith > 2008 Shaun Hill in DVOA, a more legitimate measurement than QB Rating.

This tells me that given Smith’s production in merely his second year, and the lack of real receiving and pass-blocking talent he had in 2006, that he should be the starter in 2008 if he’s 100% healthy. But I’m not going to be sad if Shaun Hill starts.

Joe Staley is a better run blocker than everyone thought he was. That Offensive Line chart is very telling, imho, and it tells me Staley’s actually the BEST run blocker on the team, Eric Heitmann right after him!

Great stuff.
———————————-
http://www.49ersfancast.com

by Indiana Jim on Feb 13, 2009 10:23 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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