Statistical Preview of 2009 Free Agency: I. Quarterbacks
Based on my 3-part season review (found here, here, and here), I've identified 5 positions that the 49ers need to upgrade, none of which should surprise you that much:
- Quarterback - Although Shaun Hill was clearly an upgrade over JT O'Mulligan, it's hard to escape the fact that (a) Hill had the 28th best QB DVOA in 2008, and (b) the Niners' pass offense DVOA from Weeks 10-17 was ranked 22nd. I think both of these stats will improve now that Mike Martz is gone, but that will only take him (and the 49ers) so far. Also, what happens if Hill gets hurt? Do you trust David Carr...I mean Alex Smith...to lead the pass offense for weeks at a time? Or how about the fact that the Niners' only have 2 QBs on the roster at the moment. All of these issues point to the fact that the QB position, as a whole, needs an upgrade. I think a desire to upgrade at QB - either through free agency or the draft - is one reason why Mike Singletary has been reluctant to name Hill the de facto starter for 2009.
- Fullback - At least 4 stats from 2008 suggest the 49ers would benefit from having a lead blocker for Frank Gore: They were 31st in 3rd-and-short DVOA, 32nd in 1st down rush DVOA, 29th in red zone rush DVOA, and 32nd in power running success. And here are 3 non-stat reasons: (a) the new OC, Jimmy Raye, loves FBs; (b) the new RB coach, Tom Rathman, was a FB; and (c) Frank Gore had a blocking FB in 2006, his best season thus far.
- Right Tackle (aka "The Turnstile") - Like many other NFL teams, the 49ers' RT is supposed to be a better run-blocker, whereas its LT is supposed to be a better pass-protector (See file labeled, "Reasons why Kwame Harris Kept his Roster Spot for so Long"). Indeed, the Niners ran right on 24.4% of their RB carries in 2008, as opposed to the 18.5% of carries that went to the left. If that trend is going to continue, they'll have to improve their 29th and 22nd rankings on runs behind RT and outside right, respectively.
- Pass Rusher Extraordinaire - It's not a secret that the 49ers' pass defense woes during the Nolan era are at least partially, if not primarily, attributable to a deficiency in pass rushing. Case in point: Their ASRs from 2005-2008 were ranked 32nd, 20th, 25th, and 26th, respectively.
- Free Safety - Everyone knows by now that Mark Roman is on the chopping block due, in part, to his lack of playmaking ability (1 INT and 0 FFs with the 49ers). As Barrows points out (although his numbers actually were a little off), FS Ed Reed has had 38 more INTs than Roman over the past 7 seasons. Add to that the 2008 Niners' 26th DVOA ranking when it came to covering #3 WRs, as well as their perennially low-ranked pass defense DVOA, and an upgrade at FS seems necessary.
With the free agency signing period beginning on February 27th, I'll be spending the next two weeks previewing the 5 urgent position needs detailed above. Obviously, I'll be focusing primarily on the statistical side of free agent evaluation, rather than the organizational (aka "Can the 49ers afford him?"), adversarial (aka "Is he worth the market value?") or availability (aka "Is he going to re-sign before Feb. 27?") sides. However, because positions like pass rusher and FS are limited in the quantity and quality of available stats, I'll freelance a little bit more with non-statistical stuff when I preview those 2 positions.
All in all, my goal for these free agent previews is to give 49er fans some statistical bases for preferring one free agent over another at the most urgent positions of need for the team. In each preview, I'll begin with an argument for evaluating only a select group of free agents that fit a certain profile. Then, I'll present the available stats, and conclude by offering my opinion about which specific free agent I think the Niners should target at that position. First up, the QBs...
IDENTIFYING THE TARGET(S)
By some accounts, the 49ers are on the verge of becoming a playoff contender. Rather than arguing the merits of that claim, I'd rather just assume that, whether or not the claim is true, the 49ers' goal is to make the playoffs. With that said, the question becomes, "Where do playoff QBs come from?"
From 2006 to 2008, there have been 24 different QBs that have led their teams to the playoffs. Before previewing the free agent QBs, we should first determine whether it's even useful to sign free agent QBs as a way to make that playoff leap. Below is a table listing the 24 playoff QBs over the past 3 seasons, along with the year and manner in which they were acquired by their team. Also displayed are the age at which QBs were acquired, if via free agency or trades, and the round in which each QB was selected, if drafted by their playoff team.
|
Player |
Team |
Play Apps 06-08 |
Yr Acq |
How Acq |
Age Acq |
Round |
|
Hasselbeck, Matt |
SEA |
2 |
2001 |
Trade |
25 |
-- |
|
Green, Trent |
KC |
1 |
2001 |
Trade |
31 |
-- |
|
McNair, Steve |
BAL |
1 |
2006 |
Trade |
33 |
-- |
|
Brees, Drew |
NO |
1 |
2006 |
Free Agent |
27 |
-- |
|
Delhomme, Jake |
CAR |
1 |
2003 |
Free Agent |
29 |
-- |
|
Pennington, Chad |
MIA |
1 |
2008 |
Free Agent |
32 |
-- |
|
Collins, Kerry |
TEN |
1 |
2006 |
Free Agent |
33 |
-- |
|
Warner, Kurt |
ARI |
1 |
2005 |
Free Agent |
34 |
-- |
|
Garcia, Jeff |
PHI |
1 |
2006 |
Free Agent |
36 |
-- |
|
Frerotte, Gus |
MIN |
1 |
2008 |
Free Agent |
37 |
-- |
|
Garcia, Jeff |
TB |
1 |
2007 |
Free Agent |
37 |
-- |
|
Manning, Peyton |
IND |
3 |
1998 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
McNabb, Donovan |
PHI |
1 |
1999 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Pennington, Chad |
NYJ |
1 |
2000 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Grossman, Rex |
CHI |
1 |
2003 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Manning, Eli |
NYG |
3 |
2004 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Rivers, Philip |
SD |
3 |
2004 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Roethlisberger, Ben |
PIT |
2 |
2004 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Campbell, Jason |
WAS |
1 |
2005 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Rodgers, Aaron |
GB |
1 |
2005 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Young, Vince |
TEN |
1 |
2006 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Flacco, Joe |
BAL |
1 |
2008 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Ryan, Matt |
ATL |
1 |
2008 |
Draft |
-- |
1 |
|
Garrard, David |
JAC |
1 |
2002 |
Draft |
-- |
4 |
|
Brady, Tom |
NE |
2 |
2000 |
Draft |
-- |
6 |
|
Romo, Tony |
DAL |
2 |
2003 |
Draft |
-- |
ND |
After the jump, I'll discuss the table, identify 4 free agent QB targets, and pick the one whose stats best fit what the Niners are looking for...
A couple of housekeeping issues before I discuss what this table suggests with respect to identifying the 49ers' free agent targets. First, Jeff Garcia and Chad Pennington each led two different teams to the playoffs the past 3 seasons. I've listed them twice because they each represent two acquisitions. Second, I gave credit to Garcia for PHI's 2006 playoff appearance due to the fact that (a) he was the QB for their 5-game winning streak to end the season, without which they never would have made the playoffs; and (b) he started both playoff games. Third, although Eli Manning was acquired by NYG, technically, via trade, it was a draft-day trade that had been worked out prior to his selection. Essentially, he was going to be a NYG whether SD traded the 1st pick to NYG (which they didn't) or selected Manning themselves prior to trading him (which they did). Finally, and this is sort of along the lines of my Eli Manning reasoning, I listed Tony Romo as being drafted even though he was technically an undrafted rookie free agent. Depending on market value, DAL was either going to draft Romo (which they didn't) or wait until shortly after the draft to sign him (which they did). It was highly unlikely on draft day that he was going to end up with a team besides DAL. OK, now that the furniture's dusted and the laundry's folded, let's move onto identifying the target(s).
Looking at how each of the playoff QB starters was acquired, 15 were drafted by their playoff team, 8 were signed as free agents, and 3 were obtained via trade. Converting these numbers into total playoff teams from 2006-2008, 24 of the 36 teams were QB'ed by players that were drafted by the team, 8 were QB'ed by players that were signed as free agents, and 4 were QB'ed by players that were acquired via trade. Clearly, if 2006-2008 is any indication, playoff teams are more likely to have QBs that they drafted. Based on information in the last column of the table, we can specify this conclusion to say that playoff teams who drafted their QB are more likely than not (19 out of 24) to have drafted them in the 1st round. In other words, the Tom Brady's and Tony Romo's of the world are exceptions rather than the rule.
This is a free agency preview, though, so what can we say about the 8 players who, after being signed as a free agent, QB'ed 25% of the playoff teams since 2006? Well, we can come to 3 conclusions. First, except for Jake Delhomme, all of these QBs had been multiple-year starters with other teams prior to being signed. Second, except for Kurt Warner and Kerry Collins, all of the QBs reached the playoffs in their 1st or 2nd year with the team (Delhomme made it in 2003 even though the table only covers 2006-2008). This makes sense on two fronts: (a) Teams that sign free agent QBs are most likely looking for that last (or next-to-last) piece of the puzzle; and (b) Warner and Collins were delayed by the arrivals of Matt Leinart and Vince Young, respectively. The final conclusion about playoff QBs who were acquired via free agency is that, except for Drew Brees (and perhaps Delhomme), they all were over the hill (Aside: Being 31 right now, I don't much like the idea of saying 32 is over the hill.).
In summary, the stats suggest that NFL playoff teams are typically QB'ed either by a player they drafted in the 1st round or an old, multiple-year starter they signed as a free agent. Also, teams that reach the playoffs after signing a free agent QB were typically only a player or two away from playoff contention prior to the signing, and reached the playoffs within 2 years of the signing.
THE LITTER
Here's how I would apply the above stats to the 49ers' current situation:
- Scenario A: If Mike Singletary and Scot McCloughan (McSingle? Is that on the dollar menu?) believe that the Niners are more than a player or two away from the playoffs, then they should go the 1st-round QB route.
- Scenario B: If McSingle thinks the Niners are on the brink of playoff contention, then they should go the over-the-hill free agent QB route.
It's certainly open to debate whether the 49ers are closer to Scenario A or Scenario B. The obvious, and much-speculated, result of Scenario A is Mark Sanchez being taken with the 10th pick in April. The result of Scenario B is not so obvious, so here are 3 free agent QBs who meet the age and multi-year starter criteria, and 1 who's close on age but meets the experience criterion:
Kurt Warner, age 38
Jeff Garcia, age 39
Kerry Collins, age 36
Rex Grossman, age 29
As I said earlier, my main goal here is to tell you how these free agents rank according to the relevant stats. Factors like availability and sign-ability have been (and will be) accounted for by other people. For the purposes of this evaluation, I'll be judging QBs using the following stats, most of which you've seen in my previous articles: DYAR, individual passing DVOA, team passing DVOA, and the discrepancy between actual yards and expected yards (EYds). For all stats, I'll be displaying each player's 3-year average. However, for DYAR, individual DVOA, and EYds, I'll also be displaying a weighted 3-year average, which gives priority to seasons in which a QB threw more than 100 passes.* In reading these tables, if a QBs weighted 3-year average is different from his regular 3-year average, then his weighted average is the more reliable stat.
Without further ado, here are the stats for Warner, Garcia, Collins, and Grossman:
|
Kurt Warner |
38 yo |
|||||||||
|
Year |
Team |
DYAR |
Rk |
Indiv Pass DVOA |
Rk |
Team Pass DVOA |
Rk |
Passes |
Pass Yds |
Pass EYds |
|
2006 |
ARI |
73 |
27 |
-4.8% |
23 |
1.5% |
15 |
186 |
1,277 |
1,021 |
|
2007 |
ARI |
699 |
12 |
11.3% |
16 |
9.1% |
14 |
476 |
3,296 |
3,462 |
|
2008 |
ARI |
1,513 |
3 |
22.5% |
6 |
24.8% |
7 |
631 |
4,476 |
5,429 |
|
3-yr Avg |
|
762 |
14 |
9.7% |
15 |
11.8% |
12 |
431 |
3,016 |
3,304 |
|
Wtd 3-yr Avg |
|
762 |
14 |
9.7% |
15 |
|
|
|
|
3,304 |
|
Jeff Garcia |
39 yo |
|||||||||
|
Year |
Team |
DYAR |
Rk |
Indiv Pass DVOA |
Rk |
Team Pass DVOA |
Rk |
Passes |
Pass Yds |
Pass EYds |
|
2006 |
PHI |
359 |
17 |
17.4% |
9 |
22.1% |
5 |
195 |
1,273 |
1,503 |
|
2007 |
TB |
691 |
13 |
19.5% |
10 |
7.8% |
16 |
346 |
2,356 |
2,757 |
|
2008 |
TB |
513 |
18 |
10.5% |
16 |
5.9% |
18 |
396 |
2,588 |
2,779 |
|
3-yr Avg |
|
521 |
16 |
15.8% |
12 |
11.9% |
13 |
312 |
2,072 |
2,346 |
|
Wtd 3-yr Avg |
|
521 |
16 |
15.8% |
12 |
|
|
|
|
2,346 |
|
Kerry Collins |
36 yo |
|||||||||
|
Year |
Team |
DYAR |
Rk |
Indiv Pass DVOA |
Rk |
Team Pass DVOA |
Rk |
Passes |
Pass Yds |
Pass EYds |
|
2006 |
TEN |
-205 |
-- |
-45.8% |
-- |
-- |
-- |
94 |
514 |
197 |
|
2007 |
TEN |
148 |
-- |
15.3% |
-- |
-- |
-- |
88 |
513 |
652 |
|
2008 |
TEN |
708 |
15 |
15.3% |
12 |
10.2% |
16 |
430 |
2,713 |
3,212 |
|
3-yr Avg |
|
217 |
15 |
-5.1% |
12 |
10.2% |
16 |
204 |
1,247 |
1,354 |
|
Wtd 3-yr Avg |
|
230 |
-- |
1.8% |
-- |
|
|
|
|
1,164 |
|
Rex Grossman |
29 yo |
|||||||||
|
Year |
Team |
DYAR |
Rk |
Indiv Pass DVOA |
Rk |
Team Pass DVOA |
Rk |
Passes |
Pass Yds |
Pass EYds |
|
2006 |
CHI |
59 |
29 |
-9.3% |
9 |
-10.6% |
23 |
512 |
3,221 |
2,727 |
|
2007 |
CHI |
-167 |
43 |
-21.8% |
10 |
-18.8% |
29 |
248 |
1,221 |
1,032 |
|
2008 |
CHI |
-36 |
-- |
-28.0% |
-- |
-- |
-- |
65 |
249 |
286 |
|
3-yr Avg |
|
-48 |
36 |
-19.7% |
10 |
-14.7% |
26 |
275 |
1,564 |
1,348 |
|
Wtd 3-yr Avg |
|
-40 |
-- |
-13.5% |
-- |
|
|
|
|
1,285 |
Based only on 2008, you'd have to conclude that Warner was - statistically - the best QB of the 4. He was 3rd in DYAR among NFL QBs, had the 6th-best individual passing DVOA, led the 7th-best passing offense to the Super Bowl, and would have shattered the NFL record for passing yards in a season had he played in game situations of average difficulty (See EYds). However, when 2006 and 2007 are included, the gap between Warner and Garcia narrows considerably. In fact, while Warner has the better 3-year DYAR average, Garcia has the better 3-year DVOA average. Similarly, while Warner has the best single DVOA season of the 4 free agent QBs, Garcia is the only one with 3 consecutive seasons of highly efficient play.
Here's a different way of looking at it. Remember that DYAR is an indicator of a player's value to his team because it measures total passing yardage above what a league-average replacement player would have thrown for in an identical set of situations. In contrast, DVOA is an indicator of a player's efficiency because it measures the success of each play compared to league average performance in that specific situation. Therefore, what the stats in the table suggest is that, over the past 3 seasons, Warner has been the most valuable QB in the free agent litter, whereas Garcia has been the most efficient.
As far as the other 2 QBs in the litter go, both had at least 1 season in which they threw fewer than 100 passes, so their weighted 3-year averages are what we want to look at. According to the stats, then, Collins has been slightly more valuable than the average replacement QB over the past 3 seasons, and basically average in efficiency, while Grossman has been neither valuable nor efficient.
PICK OF THE LITTER
My distinction between the interpretations of DYAR and DVOA is relevant for the 49ers because Singletary has made no secret of the fact that he wants a QB who simply manages the game. Translation: He wants an efficient QB. You need look no further than "game management" QB incarnate, Shaun Hill. Certainly, then, Singletary's desire for an efficient QB disqualifies Grossman from consideration.
Among the other 3, I'd look at it this way. Warner's been more valuable than efficient. Garcia's been more efficient than valuable. Collins has been equally mediocre in value and efficiency. In terms of consistency from year-to-year, Garcia's been the most consistent by far. However, Warner and Collins had to wait out their teams' flirtations with 2006 draft picks, so I can't really tag them with the "inconsistent QB" rap...unless, of course, their performance renaissances in 2008 were merely a byproduct of impending free agency. Then again, who knows for sure? Unfortunately, "who knows," is a major problem for a Singletary-led team. Above all else, Singletary needs to know what he's going to get from his QB, and what he better be getting is consistent efficiency. With Samurai Mike, the operating principle at QB is "No alarms, no surprises." Therefore, this is how I rank the 4 players that fit the old(ish), multiple-year starter standard for successful free agent QBs...if McSingle decides to go the free agency route:
- Jeff Garcia
- Kurt Warner
- Kerry Collins
- Rex Grossman
On Thursday, I'll be previewing the RTs and FBs. TO BE CONTINUED...
*Football Outsiders' advanced stats for seasons in which a QB threw fewer than 100 passes are less reliable because of the variability associated with smaller samples. Basically, the fewer number of passes thrown by a QB, the more likely it is that his performance on those passes was atypical for him. This leads to a stat that has a larger margin of error, and is therefore relatively untrustworthy. To remedy this, I calculated the proportional amount of sampling error added to below-100 QB stats by virtue of their relative number of attempts, and weighted the below-100 season's stats accordingly. The end result is that, for a crude calculation of weighted 3-year averages, above-100 season stats counted 3 times as much as below-100 season stats.
**DVOA, DYAR, ALY, and ASR statistics used to produce this article were obtained from Football Outsiders.
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42 comments
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Comments
Let's not discuss Warner
He’s made it pretty clear that for him it’s Arizona or nobody.
Also, is it really appropriate to find a 3 year avg. by just dividing the running total of DYAR, or DVOA, and dividing by 3? Surely, a season where a QB had limitted playing time (ie Kurt Warner & Jeff Garcia in 2006) should be weighted differently than a season where he was the full time starter. It appears you attempted weighting the averages, I’m assuming that’s what Wtd. Avg. means, but they’re the same as the the Avg. for Garcia and Warner. Lastly, why do you think it’s relevant to look at the 3 year averages of these quarterbacks as none of them have been full time starters over those 3 years?
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 17, 2009 8:25 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
waiting on outcome of Alex Smith...
I don’t really think that question can be answered until we have more than 1 quarterback on our roster. If Alex Smith re-signs then I believe we will bring in a veteran type that doesn’t expect to start and who is fine fighting for the second string position but realistically will end up as the third stringer. Alex Smith will be the QB to push Hill as the starter. In addition to this, draft a QB in the later rounds to fight for the third spot.
If Smith does not re-sign they’ll bring in a veteran like Jeff Garcia to fight for the starting job and draft a QB sometime after the first round, and again bring in another token veteran or undrafted QB to fight for the third string position. Either way I don’t think they’re drafting a QB in round 1.
by 49er4life on Feb 17, 2009 8:39 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hey guys, I was just watching ESPN
and they said the Niners have not closed the doors with Michael Vick. At least not the coach.
“According to ESPN” (it was titled Vick to the 49ers)
Anyway, I do not want to sign any of the QBs in the Poll, maybe someone from the FA or a draft
I will always be your fan JRich. Good Luck
by chili01 on Feb 17, 2009 9:23 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hedge our bet
I am not convinced on Smith, but if there is a small chance he may eventually become a quality starter, isn’t the best scenario signing Garcia and letting Smith learn (or unlearn) under him. He will be cheap enough to be a back-up and is still only 24. Meanwhile, draft a QB in the late rounds and put him on the practice squad.
by NinerinMiami on Feb 17, 2009 10:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Is Garcia better than Hill?
It’s doubtful and probably not worth the money to find out.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 17, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There are so many quarterbacks I’d prefer over Rex Grossman. I’d rather the Niners talk Vinny Testaverde out of retirement…
by MatteoFC on Feb 17, 2009 11:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
haha...me too
just included grossman because he fit the criteria i established at the beginning of the piece. personally, i think i’d rather they talk gio carmazzi out of retirement than sign grossman.
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's target the league's best second stringers
Byron Leftwich?
Let’s get a team’s good backup for a middle round draft pick and add him to the QB competition in spring training.
by Neon on Feb 17, 2009 11:47 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
yeah, i thought about adding leftwich...
…being that he’s 29, and was a multiple-year starter in JAX. i just think his ship has sailed already. his ceiling was pretty much 9-7 as a starter, and he hasn’t QB’ed a team to the playoffs in more than 3 years. at least with grossman, his cieling (with a stout D) was making the super bowl, and that was only 3 seasons ago.
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Note:
Thanks for including JT’s name, Florida Danny. The full name actually reads “JT O-I-Wish-I-Had-A-Mulligan.”
Throwback unis? Yes. Throwback afros? YES!
by grantmp on Feb 17, 2009 11:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
no prob...
…i never quite understood why jt o’mulligan never caught on as his unofficial nickname in 49er fan circles. i think it’s much catchier than “just turn overs.”
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Led their teams to the playoffs?
Grossman and Collins did anything but lead their teams to playoffs. The rushing game and stellar defenses led those teams to playoffs. You should know that Grossman and, even more so, Collins had little to do with their team’s success and were actually ultimately detrimental but I guess you don’t.
I also don’t understand how you can think Leftwich’s ship has sailed while you think Collins’ and Garcia’s haven’t. Leftwich, in his limited playing time last year, actually has a higher DYAR than Hill. Do you really think Kerry Collins is a better option than Byron Leftwich? Again, your logic seems highly illogical to me.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 17, 2009 12:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
i'm going to make this short and sweet, rather than indulge you with cacophony of illogical arguments...
1) leftwich’s “limited playing time” = 38 passes. do you even believe your own arguments (See above where you argue that seasons as less than full-time starters should be ignored)? regardless…38 passes! seriously? for your apparently necessary edification, leftwich’s DYAR and DVOA in 2007, with 64 passes, were -215 and -65.0% respectively. more passes, horrifically worse stats. i guess you watched that one PIT @ WAS monday night game that leftwich subbed for big ben, but you missed his ATL vs. TB games last year.
2) grossman’s and collins’s “rushing game and stellar defenses led those teams to playoffs.” you must be unaware of the fact that singletary et al. have made it clear they want exactly such a QB. that is, one that gets out of the way so that the running game and defense can take them to the playoffs? perhaps i should be clearer in my use of the word “lead.” i neglected to consider that i might have a semanticist/word parser reading my articles. hey, as long as my readership is up, who cares, right?
3) i “think leftwich’s ship has sailed while collins’ and garcia’s havent.” garcia has QB’ed a team to the playoffs 2 of the past 3 years. collins just QB’ed the AFC’s #1 seed…this season! both garcia and collins threw more passes in 2008 than leftwich has thrown in the past 3 seasons combined! garcia has been a top-20 QB in both DYAR and DVOA for 3 consecutive seasons. maybe you just disagree with my use of the term “that ship has sailed” to describe my opinion. perhaps i should have used, “that dog won’t hunt.” perhaps on methodrampage.com they have both a “methodrampage: stats his way” manual AND a “methodrampage: english idioms his way” manual. apparently, i really need to consult those references for these articles.
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 1:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
like him or hate him
garcia wins games, he did it with the bucs, and with the eagles when mcnabb was out, is he really not worth another shot in SF?
by sundaysfinest on Feb 17, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
edit...
to be grammatically correct in my comment response, , i should have said, “use of the verb ‘to lead’,” not “use of the word lead.” you know, since i used the past tense “led” in my article instead of the present tense, “lead.” my bad. wait…i just used “since” instead of “because,” even though “since” actually connotes temporality. there was no temporality in that sentence, so i should have used “because” instead to denote a causal link. my bad…again.
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry again...
…i meant “denote a non-temporal causal link” rather than “denote a causal link.”
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't misrepresent me
RE: 1) I never argued or said the following:
… that seasons as less than full-time starters should be ignored
I did say, that in my opinion, they should be weighted differently but not ignored (there’s a big difference). Leftwich is a baby compared to Collins and Garcia both of whom have been relegated to the back-up duties in the past. If their careers can make a resurgence then why can’t Leftwich’s? Leftwich has also never had any WR worth a lick to throw to. Why if Leftwich’s numbers in ‘08 aren’t worth considering how come his ‘07 stats when he played for one of the worst teams in the NFL are? If 38 passes is too small a sample size then 64 isn’t much better.
RE: 2) I am aware that Singletary envisions a team who’s rushing attack and defense gets them into the playoffs. Although the rushing game, or defense for that matter, hasn’t proven themselves to be anywhere near that caliber. Also, if the defense and rushing games do drastically improve is Shaun Hill not good enough to “lead” that Niners team to the playoffs?
RE: 3) I found is laughable:
collins just QB’ed the AFC’s #1 seed…this season!
LOL, Danny for a stat guy you’re pretty funny sometimes. Yes, Collins was very good at handing the ball off to Chris Johnson and Lendale White. He was also very good at watching his defense hold opposing teams to 211 yards per game (40 yards rushing, 161 yards passing) and 13 points per game. Without one of Chris Johnson or Tennesse’s defense Collins would not have “QB’ed” the AFC’s #1 seed. When Baltimore decided to stack the box against Tennesse Collins struggled mightly.
both garcia and collins threw more passes in 2008 than leftwich has thrown in the past 3 seasons combined!
Ok, Leftwich has been relegated to back-up duty for the past 2.5 seasons. Of course a starter in one season is going to throw more passes than a back-up over 3 seasons. Do you really think that that “stat” proves anything? Oh, it must prove that because Leftwich was relegated to back-up duty that his ship has sailed. Wait, wasn’t Collins relegated to back-up duty as recently as ‘07 and wasn’t Garcia a back-up in ‘06 and even a back-up for the lowly Detriot Lions in ’05? Now I’m really confused as to what pointless point your trying to make.
garcia has been a top-20 QB in both DYAR and DVOA for 3 consecutive seasons.
Wow, Garcia has been outside of the bottom third of NFL QB’s in DYAR and DVOA for 3 consecutive seasons. He’s also going to be 39 and his streak of being outside the bottom 1/3 of NFL starters is going to come to an end. Garcia couldn’t get a team with a top 10 defense into the playoffs this past season what makes you think he can do it with a less than league average defense? Is Tampa Bay just stupid for not bringing him back, do they have any legitimate options (I know maybe Jake Plummer will stop playing handball and unretire)? Or is it possible that Garica just isn’t good enough to get a team into the playoffs anymore?
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 17, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
man, i never knew...
…that even though collins was the starter at QB for TEN this season, he actually never “QB’ed” them to the #1 seed. i guess there was a ghost back there handing the ball off and — gasp — throwing a game-winning TD in the final 2 minutes @ BAL and — gasp — throwing for 289 yds on 40 passes when CHI put 8 in the box the whole game? according to the omniscient one (i.e., you), how much credit exactly should i give to collins for being the starting QB on a #1 seed team? let me know, so i can qualify any discussion of ben roethlisberger by saying that he never “QB’ed” PIT to rings in 2005 and 2008. after all, it was just their running game and defense that were responsible. it’s as if you’re saying we should wipe the record books of running/defense-heavy playoff teams ever having had a QB on the field. now, i know you’re going to respond to this by saying, “i never said that! don’t misrepresent me. i just mean they should get less credit.” so my request is this: please provide me with a detailed weighting chart so that, in the future, i can assign credit and blame according to your standards, and adjust my stats accordingly. you seem to have a lot of complaints, but don’t seem to offer much in the way of concrete solutions so i can evaluate the stats in a manner agreeable to you.
p.s. collins was a starter for 10 seasons before becoming a backup behind a #1 pick. of course, i did mention the fact that both collins and warner were relegated to backup duties for the same exact reason, and therefore, should be cut some slack for their 2006 and 2007 seasons. leftwich, on the other hand, was a starter for 3 seasons, then missed 10 games due to injury in 2006, and then was a backup in 2007 and 2008. unlike warner and collins, who sat behind top-10 draft picks, leftwich was benched in favor of david garrard!!! so, basically you’re saying that, in re collins, 10 years of being a starting NFL QB, followed by 2 years of backing up a top-10 draft pick, followed by another year of starting is on par with 3 years of starting, followed by an injured year, followed by two years of playing backup? keep in mind, both ARI (with warner) and TEN (with collins) signed these guys to be their starters. only the insertion of a high-priced draft pick eventually got them benched. in contrast, leftwich signed with both ATL and PIT to backup each team’s designated starter, and, in ATL, he was signed to backup…wait for it…joey harrington. i mean, his situation doesn’t even come close to comparing to collins’s…or warner’s for that matter.
p.s.s. i know you prefer attention to semantic and grammatical detail rather than statistical detail, but garcia has actually been inside the top third in DVOA twice in the past 3 seasons. also, in line with my argument above about collins, warner, and leftwich, garcia was a starter for 6 seasons, then signed as DET’s starter only to break his leg in the preseason, then signed as a backup to mcnabb (and actually sparked the offense to a playoff berth when he came in for the last 7 games), then started two years in TB. so, let’s see…garcia = starts 6 years, breaks leg in preseason as starter for next team and returns as late-season starter when healthy, backs up starter for following team and leads offense to playoffs, then starts next two seasons with following team. i’d say that’s definitely comparable to leftwich’s career arc (see above)…no doubt.
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
RE: "how much credit exactly should i give to collins for being the starting QB on a #1 seed team?"
None, he wouldn’t have “led” any other team to the #1 seed. Do you truly believe, and please answer this before you expect me to start drinking your kool-aid, that Kerry Collins can lead the ’09 49ers to the playoffs? Do you truly believe that Kurt Warner lied to everybody when he indicated that if his only options for next season were resigning with the Cardinals and retirement? Do you truly believe Rex Grossman is a type of QB who can manage games while not losing games for his team? Do you truly believe a 39 year old Jeff Garcia is going to be a significant improvement over Shaun Hill?
I don’t believe any of those things are true and come to think of it I’m hard pressed to find the point of this post unless the point was actually to suggest that Hill is in fact our best option at QB next year.
it’s as if you’re saying we should wipe the record books of running/defense-heavy playoff teams ever having had a QB on the field.
No, its as if I’m saying that being a QB that has made a playoff appearance is a stupid criteria to judge a QB on. The QB is the be-all-end-all when it comes to a team’s success. The point your missing is that Collins (1 and done in the playoffs) and Garcia (couldn’t make the playoffs) played on vastly better teams than the Niners last year. They rarely made big impacts on their games, therefore why should we think they’re good enough to get the Niners into the playoffs?
so, basically you’re saying that, in re collins, 10 years of being a starting NFL QB, followed by 2 years of backing up a top-10 draft pick, followed by another year of starting is on par with 3 years of starting, followed by an injured year, followed by two years of playing backup? keep in mind, both ARI (with warner) and TEN (with collins) signed these guys to be their starters. only the insertion of a high-priced draft pick eventually got them benched.
Wait, what am I saying? See I need to ask you because you like to put words in my mouth and that sentence(?) about Collins was incredibly ambiguous. Warner’s and Collins’ demotion to the #2 QB role had a whole lot more to do with their deteriorating play than it did with the play of two rookie QB’s, both of which haven’t proven anything other than they’re not very good. Warner was abysmal before his resurgence over the last two years and Kerry Collins has never been much more than an average QB. Why do you think Tenn. and Arizona drafted QB in the first round? Because the ones currently on their rosters weren’t very good.
Look if you think Leftwich is done, that’s fine, I’m omniscient and right, while your not and wrong. Settled? If you ask me I’d say Leftwich (whom I think caught a bad rap in Jacksonville) and Grossman (who has put up some monster games) would offer more upside than a 40 year old Collins and a 39 year old Garcia but at the same time are probably more risky than Garcia but not Collins because he sucks. Which brings us back to Shaun Hill. Why not consider a QB with a higher upside when the less risky option doesn’t offer much of an upgrade over your current starter?
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 17, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"i'm hard-pressed to find the point of this post..."
i’m hard-pressed to find the point of you reading this post, or any post of mine. i’m also hard-pressed to find the point of you commenting on a post that has no point. it’s an interesting phenomenon wherein someone argues a counterpoint against a point that doesn’t exist. kind of like the QB of a #1 seed not actually, you know, QB’ing for them. it boggles the mind, really.
just for the record…i enjoy predicting your responses (i.e., “stop putting words in my mouth!”) before they occur. thanks for playing along.
also let the record show that you still haven’t provided me with a detailed weighting system so that i can tailor my posts around your opinions of credit/blame.
i’m sorry my posts don’t meet your standards. perhaps you can convince fooch to replace me with you so we can all marvel at your statistical acumen and logical analysis. obviously, it really must have been a sad day in your life when i showed up on the scene here. you must have been so much happier, and so much less of a troll back then.
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 7:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
After reading this fine exchange..
I think method is trying to explain that outside of Warner (who will not be in SF this year), Collins, Garcia, and (lol, are you freakin’ serious?) Grossman are all mediocre to, well, crap.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Feb 17, 2009 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
alas...if only he had just said it that clearly...
…and without the absurd word-parsing and nitpicking of my “weighting”, there would have been no fine exchange. thanks for succinctly clarifying exactly what he meant. the way you put it, it’s an easily defensible opinion to say that warner is good, collins and garcia are mediocre to crap, and grossman is flat-out crap. i’ve got no qualms with that breakdown. unfortunately, method never actually expressed that opinion in the level-headed manner you did.
by Florida Danny on Feb 17, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL are you being facetious here..
But come on now, Garcia can’t make plays down field anymore, and an injury away from being done in the NFL. Hill is better than Garcia at this point. method was dead on about Collins, and it doesn’t take any type of analysis to try and polish Grossturd. He flat out sucks. The 49ers already have a turnover machine in JTO. So why Grossman?
The 49ers will probably go with Hill/Smith, draft a QB later, and go from there. They aren’t a “win now” team anyway. They are at best a .500 team, and they might be worse than that.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Feb 17, 2009 10:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
those are all fair points...
i wasn’t being facetious at all. you said it much better than method did.
i agree, grossman sucks…hence my disqualification of him in the piece. like i said in the piece, the overwhelming evidence from playoff QBs suggests that, if mcsingle believes they’re close to the playoffs, they should go free agent. if mcsingle thinks the niners aren’t close, then they should go #1 pick. problem is, #1 pick this season isn’t as prudent as next season, when far more top-flight QBs will be in the draft.
remember, all i’m trying to do in these pieces is to make an argument for the best group of free agents at a position, present the stats, and then give my opinion of who the niners should target if they choose to go the free agent route. i’m not trying to do any more or any less than that here.
by Florida Danny on Feb 18, 2009 12:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So what you're saying is...
that drummer’s reading comprehension is vastly superior to yours. Ok, I buy it.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 18, 2009 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
this from the guy who associates...
“i’m illiterate” with each of his comments.
troll – someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
perhaps you should change your slogan to, “don’t sweat it. i’m an illiterate troll.” i buy it.
by Florida Danny on Feb 18, 2009 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, a troll?
I don’t really fit that definition at all. Maybe you should re-read it or have drummer explain it to you.
My 2300+ comments on Niners Nation, for the most part (because I won’t say that absolutely every one of them has), have been on-topic and my intent has not been “to provoke users into an emotional response”. Look if you can’t handle someone posting a differing opinion without having to get all emotional about it, that’s really an issue you have to address with yourself and it’s no worry of mine.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 18, 2009 11:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i'll let others be the judge of whether or not they think you're a troll...
however, suffice it to say that your childish vitriol is easily the most inflammatory of anyone on here. i’ve seen it from you elsewhere on the site, but you seem to take special pleasure in spewing it here. you can’t seem to debate without disparaging me or the point of my articles. you clearly don’t actually read them (as your self-proclaimed illteracy would predict), because it seems everyone else on here understands the purpose of my articles (you know, because i explicitly state the purpose of each article in the article itself), the contextualized, conditional points that i make, and, if in disagreement with them, makes their arguments respectfully.
you seem to be the only one that takes pride in taking cheap shots at me in the midst of their comments (e.g., “you are deficient in reading comprehension,” “i’m hard-pressed to find the point of this post,” “i doubt you’re a real 49er fan,” etc.). and it seems that you can’t have a normal debate without taking a shot at me somehow. if that’s not “provoking,” i don’t know what is. obviously, you know i’m not going to just sit back and let you say stupid, uncalled for (site decorum) about me, and taint the comment sections of my pieces such that other people don’t think they can even get a word in edge-wise. if that’s not “provoking” or “disrupting,” i don’t know what is. if, rather than reading the totally of the arguments i make in my articles or paying attention to the explicit statements i make acknowledging the limitations, you instead parse words and nitpick methodologies as if this is some scientific journal article i’m writing here, i have but only to conclude that you’re “provoking” and being “inflammatory” rather than contributing anything useful to the thread. on the contrary, you’re “disrupting” the thread. seriously, if i didn’t know better, i’d swear you’re “oneniner” from maiocco’s blog comment threads.
case in point: the first comment on here is yours. it’s a decent attempt at starting a debate. however, i’m loathe to get into a debate with you because it inevitably descends into the same tiresome crap from your end, so i didn’t respond. what happens? you come back 4 hours later with a much more inflammatory comment that includes the typical methodrampage sarcastic personal crap (e.g., “i guess you don’t,” and “your logic seems highly illogical”). it’s like, your first comment didn’t sufficiently provoke me, so you had to up the ante. if this was the only time that’s happened, i wouldn’t even notice. but seeing as how it’s a trend with you, i have to conclude that you’re just commenting to provoke me, and hence a troll of the highest order.
whether you’ve made 2,300+ comments or 1,000,000 comments on here is irrelevant. quantity is far less important than quality, and the quality of your commentary is trollish at best. of course, you think the same of my articles, though you’d probably add a whole host of other adjectives as well. so look at it this way, i think you’re a troll; you think i suck as a writer, statistician, logician, and am an all around fraud of a niner fan. sounds like the negative feelings are reasonably mutual. what i don’t understand is, why if you feel that way, do you keep wasting your life away religiously viewing (i can’t go so far as to say, "reading") my articles? why don’t you go find something else to do rather than viewing these amateur-hour, method-lacking, illogical, and all-around pointless posts? the answer is obvious. you could care less about the content. you’re just here to start (site decorum) with me and disrupt the thread. if that’s not a troll, i don’t know what is.
by Florida Danny on Feb 18, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
to close this out...
…i’ll just add that, if you can’t make the points in your comments without descending into trolldom, i’d rather you save them for somewhere else. nearly everyone else who comments on my pieces does so by actually debating the topic, telling me how they disagree (or agree) with the points i’ve made, and doing so in a mature way. i’d rather the comments section be populated with that kind of civility and healthy debate than with whatever venom you’re spewing out that day.
by Florida Danny on Feb 18, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Danny boy, please
I would really love to put this to rest, even though I find your post where to try to oust me as a troll as being the most "trollish" comment in this entire thread.
Anyways, I’ve got one last question to ask (hopefully you’ll answer because you seem to have conveniently avoided all of my other questions. So here it is,
Do you truly believe Kerry Collins was one of the 15 best quarterbacks in the National Football League last season?
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 18, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Collins
I’m not sure what Danny will say, but I thought I’d throw out my two cents on your question. I’ll answer by saying it’s hard to say. I don’t think it’s a clear-cut yes or no answer. Some stats would say yes, some would say no.
Just using FO stats for this particular situation (I won’t say whether they’re the be all end all in the grand scheme of things), Collins was ranked 15th out of the top 27. Shaun Hill is 27th and everyone below him had injury issues or general ineffectiveness and eventual benching. The QBs below Collins in DYAR were
16. Jason Campbell
17. Matt Cassel
18. Jeff Garcia
19. Kyle Orton
20. Joe Flacco
21. Brett Favre
22. Seneca Wallace
23. Tavaris Jackson
24. Ben Roethlisberger
25. Dan Orlovsky
26. Shaun Hill
The proverbial “eye-ball” test would indicate some of those folks are seemingly better. But then again, there are a million ways to measure a QB, some accurate, and some no better than flipping a coin. The easy argument would be to point to the 13-3 record, but wins are not the measure of a QB (just as they’re NOT the measure of a pitcher).
by Fooch on Feb 18, 2009 7:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll go out on a limb here
But first I want to revisit something. I ask the question, “Do you truly believe Kerry Collins was one of the 15 best quarterbacks in the National Football League last season?” and your response, Fooch, is “it’s hard to say”? How is it hard to say if you truly believe something? It may be hard to say, definitively, that Collins was or wasn’t a top 15 QB in the league but you should have a pretty good grasp on what you believe or don’t believe in.
Now, in Danny’s response he said, “i have no clue if he was one of the best 15 QBs”. Which again is an attempt to avoid a fairly direct question. Is Danny really buying what he’s selling? I’ll acknowledge and commend him for stating that DVOA and DYAR (in addition to the other FO stats) aren’t gospel but at the same time they’re pretty much the only thing he uses in his “analysis” (I mean other than seemingly arbitrarily selecting a playoff appearance within the last 3 years). Which seems odd to me, I’d almost liken it to a priest questioning the bible. I mean, if you using a set of data for your analysis you should probably think it’s truthful or correct.
Anyways, I’ll man up and I’ll tell you that I do not believe Kerry Collins was a top 15 QB last season and I do not believe that Collins or Jeff Garcia offer any kind of substantial upgrade of Shaun Hill.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 19, 2009 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
by definition...
statistics is a probabilistic exercise. no one can ever assert “truth” or “correctness” in regards to statistics. all that can be concluded from statistics is the “likelihood” of a phenomenon. as i’ve said repeatedly (and i don’t think there’s any hypocrisy or “trying to have it both ways” in this), i use FO’s stats because they are the best stats out there at the moment. i don’t have to think that they’re 100% true or 100% correct to nevertheless think that they are the “most likely to be true” or “most likely to be correct” measures of football performance among all currently available measures of football perfomance. to do otherwise would be akin to a college/university admissions department refusing to use SAT, ACT, LSAT, GRE, or MCAT scores because they are not 100% accurate in predicting student performance in college. if the only we can apply statistics is when they are correct 100% of the time, we’re never going to be applying statistics. another example of this would be people who use statistical trends to bet on sporting events. there’s never a trend that predicts the future 100% of the time. the niners were 1-13 or so in the eastern time zone before playing @ BUF. the trend predicted they’d lose. just because they won doesn’t mean that the stats should be thrown overboard.
my stat expertise (aka PhD minor) is in measurement and research methodology. the guiding principle in measurement theory, research, and application is that you have to provde support for the validity of applications based on your measurement. FO has done so by showing that their stats are more highly correlated with winning and points than traditional NFL stats. another aspect of validity has to do with the methods used to develop the measure. FO’s stats account for opponent and game situation, which everyone would argue are vital factors in measuring performance. for instance, “team X is better than team Y because team X played a tougher schedule, even though teams X and Y are similar statistically” is a ubiquitous assertion in both sports ranking systems (e.g., BCS, RPI) and water cooler debate. traditional NFL stats account for zero, again, zero factors that have been proven to affect performance. all they do is add up yards, tds, etc., regardless of the context in which they were achieved. from a methodological perspective, this means traditional NFL stats are essentially meaningless when it comes to applying them scientifically. outside of sports, this kind of “figuring out which measure is the most trustworthy” was put on display by nate silver over at fivethirtyeight.com, wherein he weighted politcal polls based on their trustworthiness, adjusted them for several factors known to predict election outcomes, and then used a model based on these stats to accurately predict 49 of the 50 states in the presidential election, and basically nail the electoral college count spot on.
so the moral of this story is that if you (or anyone else) can find me stats that are more trustworthy from a methodological and evidentiary perspective, i’ll be glad to use them. i’m a proponent of FO only until someone comes up with something better, and makes it readily available to me for these posts. until then, i’m going to continue using FO’s stats because they’re currently the most trustworthy, and attach the appopriate probabilistic language to my conclusions. i’m not sure whether this is going to appease you at all, but i hope at least i’ve made my philosophy clear enough, and explained that my use of FO’s stats is based on a doctorate-level expertise on measurement.
by Florida Danny on Feb 20, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
according to DYAR...
he was the 15th best QB this season…according to DVOA, he was the 12th best QB this season. according to you, he’s obviously not a top 15 QB. according to my non-statistical side, i have no clue if he was one of the best 15 QBs. that changes from year-to-year. wold you say brett favre was the #1 QB of all time this past season? of course not, he sucked. clearly, brett favre was not the 21st-best QB in football ability-wise. he just had a shitty year. so whether collins is15th, 12th, or let’s say, 24th (just guessing what you’d rank him), has absolutely zero to do with what i’m talking about in this entire article. in other words, it’s unsurprisingly off-topic to argue about DVOA, DYAR, etc. for the 100th time.
that’s what you don’t ever seem to get in my articles. i’m not trying to sit here and have the same ridiculous argument about DVOA, DYAR, and your continued inability to recognize the limitations and contexts with which i apply them. my goals here (and in every article) were and are clear because i state them explicitly. every time i use DVOA or DYAR, i say that they’re simply “the best measure,” yet you continue with your assault on them as if i’m asserting they’re gospel.
so, let me ask you a question:
i know this is news to you, but the whole point of my “stats” was to rank 4 free agent QBs that best fit the profile of “playoff QB acquired via free agency.” how would your rankings be any different among those 4 QBs?
from what i’ve gone back and read from your comments, you’d basically rate those 4 QBs like this. warner is clearly best. grossman is clearly worst. collins sucks and should get no credit, yet he’s not as horrible as grossman. warner shouldn’t count because he’s staying in ARI. to me, your reasoning results in warner (if he counts), garcia, collins, grossman. so if i have this correct, after weeding through your ad hominem attacks and off-topic commentary, you basically agree with my rankings except for perhaps warner/garcia instead of garcia/warner at the top. what a total waste of time this has been then, eh? wish you would have just said that, and stuck to it, from the beginning, rather than taking this thread to places it needs not go.
by Florida Danny on Feb 18, 2009 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"playoff QB acquired via free agency."
By biggest beef is the fact that you’re using a playoff birth within 3 years as a criteria for your QB’s. I don’t think whether or not a FA QB has made the playoffs within the last 3 years is relevant at all (and if you consider a playoff apperance within 3 years relevant why isn’t within 4 relevant?). I also don’t think that Collins or Garica offer anything more than Hill does in regards to a QB “that gets out of the way so that the running game and defense can take them to the playoffs”.
For the sake of your question though, I would probably rate you’re FA QB targets in the following order.
1. Warner
2a. Garcia
2b. Grossman (I think Grossman actually has the most talent out or your 3 remaining QB’s but he’s been a bonehead thus far. I might consider signing him above the others on potential alone).
4. Collins
But for the record, I think Hill, Smith a rookie QB is the way direction for Niners.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 19, 2009 7:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just for the record
When you keep twisting what people say you can expect them to rebut with a “That’s not what I said” or “stop putting words in my mouth” type response.
Also, as you should know, detailed weighting systems take a while to develop. But I have developed some preliminary criteria. If a team’s top 2 RB’s score twice as many TD’s as that team’s QB throws for that QB should not get much if any credit for said team’s success.
Case in point, Kerry Collins threw for 12 TD’s while Lendale White rushed for 15 TD’s and Chris Johnson ran for another 9 (24 total).
Now it’s still in its preliminary stages but I really wanted to get back to you on this and that’s what I’ve got so far.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Feb 19, 2009 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I do recall the phrase “having to grow a QB from within” at the press conference yesterday. I see them trying to skate 2009 with Hill and Smith and hope to cash in on next year’s draft were there might be 5-7 QB available that are better than Stafford and Sanchez.
by bignerd on Feb 17, 2009 4:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hill, then Smith, then someone in the middle rounds
Singletary has given every indication that he’s going to have a ball control offense. That should be lots of handoffs and short, safe passes. Hill and Smith should be more than able to handle that.
I say pick up a guy in the draft on the second day.
Garcia has been a wonderful quarterback, and I wish that the Niners had never gotten rid of him, but at this stage of his career I don’t think he’s better than Hill or even a healthy Smith, and doesn’t have their upside.
Kerry Collins? Grossman? Leftwich? Nah. Spend the money on another free agent that can improve the team.
by Bob On The Coast on Feb 17, 2009 6:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I want
A mid round Draft pick, and hopefully eventually Cassel. Only problem with Cassel is I don’t think he’ll be as good anywhere as he was with the Pats. I don’t think Brady would be either because I think it’s really all about Belichick and he’s ability to recognize talent and coach it and make it work for his system. In any case, I’d like to see a Nate Davis, JPW, or Freeman drafted alongside a decent to great FA pickup. I like Hill a lot actually, but I would like to get rid of smith and be able to add some depth.
by samhitch on Feb 17, 2009 10:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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