Alex Smith and Shaun Hill: Who benefits from the hiring of Jimmy Raye?
by David Fucillo on Feb 2, 2009 11:59 AM PST
in San Francisco 49ers News
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PrintWith the Super Bowl officially in our rear view mirror, it's time to get back to the 49ers (although we'll have a couple more semi-Super Bowl related items this week). Things get quiet in the offseason around the league, but I guarantee you we'll be active here at Niners Nation throughout the offseason. Given the dearth of information, we're always looking for post suggestions.
As I was thinking of areas of discussion, I became curious about the QB competition under Jimmy Raye. As people have blasted the hiring of Raye or come to the general support of Singletary, there has not been much discussion about the impact on the QB competition. One problem with addressing that issue is we really don't know WHO will be competing in that QB competition, aside from Shaun Hill. I refer to it as a competition because although Singletary has said he likes Hill, his end of season comments left the situation a bit mysterious.
In looking over the conference call transcripts of Singletary and Raye, Shaun Hill was mentioned briefly once by each of them. Alex Smith was mentioned once by Singletary and not at all by Raye. That certainly doesn't mean anything, but it's all we've really got to go on at this point.
Although Raye has ties to the Norv Turner offense, it's safe to say that the offense will rely more on the meat and potatoes of greater reliance on the rushing attack. If the Norv Turner aspects show through Alex Smith probably has a bit of an advantage, given the signs of improvement he showed in 2006.
The big area of concern for Shaun Hill fans is that Smith is a solid enough practice player while Hill really is more of a game performer. Given that, what's to stop a healthy Smith from winning the job, even though Hill might be the better man for the job? If the passing game is simplified, that might make up the difference for Hill. If he is not going to be required to make big plays in practice, maybe he can do enough to win the job.
This doesn't factor in the rookie QB the 49ers draft or the veteran QB they sign in free agency. And of course, if Alex Smith is cut loose, a sizeable chunk of this argument is moot.
So which QB benefits from the hiring of Jimmy Raye? And I refuse to include J.T. O'Sullivan out of principle. If you want to vote for him, vote other.
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Shaun Hill
Shaun Hill benefits most because Jimmy Raye is the guy that Singletary wanted. And it seems clear from the process that the most important part of the decision was getting a guy that’s going to do what Singletary wants. Singletary was the one that got Hill in the game in the first place this season
Sing got Hill in due to...
He was the only real option. Remember, before Smith went on IR, he was #2 on the depth chart.
Raye is going to bring an offense Smith can operate in. Smith was horrid on Martz’s, and mediocre in Turner’s. It going to be 2006 all over again, with more or less the same amount of wins.
Well, we're waiting....
2006 again?
That’s actually got me thinking about a possible front page post response. I’d say our receivers are probably better than in 2006. Bryant was our #1 and is a talented receiver, but we have much more depth at WR now than then. Not sure off the top of my head how our offensive line compares to then.
by David Fucillo on Feb 2, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
2006 as far as offense..
Plus, you’re going into the season with a lesser OC than what they had with Turner, and the only WR that matches the talent in Bryant is a aged Bruce. Also, you still have Sing and the rest of the carry overs from Nolan’s regime. Also, there is no Larry Allen anymore.
Well, we're waiting....
Here is an article that maybe Florida Danny might...
Appreciate.
Chase Stuart, from Pro-Football Reference, on 2006:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=380
Well, we're waiting....
Wide Receivers
While Bryant was more talented, I think the depth of the receiving corp is significantly better. That year the team had Antonio Bryant, Arnaz Battle, Bryan GIlmore and Taylor Jacobs. This year they had Isaac Bruce, Bryant Johnson, Battle, Hill, Morgan and Zeigler. Not a ton of production from some of those guys, but heading into 2009 I think the talent is considerably better top to bottom. Obviously not having a still playing well Larry Allen hurts on the OL though.
by David Fucillo on Feb 2, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
Sure they're better than the 2006 squad...
And Martz did squeeze something out of them, but we might saying more of “Why don’t they throw the ball to?….” next season.
Well, we're waiting....
Why does everyone assume
that the Niners won’t be passing next year? Sing never said he wants a team that will just run, run, run, run, run… run some more… drop back to pass… oh wait no it’s a draw play. All he said was that he wants to have a team that can run the ball successfully. A team that won’t get stopped 90% on 3 and short. A team that can run it in from the 2 yard line. A team that can run on 2 and 10 and then not be looking at 3 and 9. Just because he wants a dominating run game, doesn’t mean no passing ever, unless its 3 and 15+. Plus, Raye had a some decent-pretty good pass attacks in KC.
Also, everyone has this whole thing against a “boring offense.” We don’t want to be the Ravens or Steelers. Well, me personally, I find winning a lot more fun than watching an “exciting” offense flame out and lose the game. Give me the Steelers recent success and I’ll take 14-9 or 10-7 wins.
Nobody thinks they will give up the forward pass..
The 49ers just won’t be as dynamic of an offense this upcoming season as opposed to last. Given the hole in Martz’s offense, at least it put pressure on defenses. The deal is this: if you shut down Gore, and put it all on the QB, well, at least they had a shot in Martz’s offense to get the ball downfield. Sing saying he wants to run the ball with success is an obvious answer.
BTW, this team ain’t the Steelers, or Ravens. Once people figure that out, they can go and face reality.
Well, we're waiting....
Now we have a D to go with the 2006 Offense
The 9ers didn.t start playing good D until the final games of the 06 season. Now we have a D that will play great along with an 06 Offense.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Singletary
He also said they needed to add depth at QB so it seems like he’s not 100% sold on Hill.
by David Fucillo on Feb 2, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
What about depth at RB?
How come there’s basically been nothing said about Frank Gore’s durability, potential lack thereof, and the fact that aside from him there probably isn’t a RB on the roster who even qualifies as “better than average” when the hot trend of the past couple years is to have a tandem at RB?
Seems like going to a smashmouth style, run first type of offense could lead to Gore breaking down even faster without having somebody else to help carry the load?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Agreed...
Also his fumble-itious vulnerability in hard hitting games… I would love to see them draft a Marion Barber type back or go after Ward in free agency as potential backup maybe starter. Gore’s durability is questionable especially if we are approaching the year as a smash mouth type of offense.
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Ditto
The average yards per carry wasn’t very good last year across the team. I wonder how much of the drop in average per was due to Martz’s offense and how much was due to the talent.
The Niners need another running back to take the load off Gore, and that back isn’t Robinson or Foster. It doesn’t appear to be Clayton from the lack of opportunities he gets. There must be something that no one likes about him, because no one picked him off the taxi squad.
The Niners need a Moran Norris and another good running back or two before they worry about quarterbacks. Hill will do fine, and if Smith’s shoulder is okay he’ll do okay as a backup.
by Bob In Beaverton on Feb 2, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
1/10th of a yard
I think that’s a pretty insignificant drop.
by methodrampage on Feb 3, 2009 7:28 AM PST up reply actions
I dunno about that...
They do need more depth at QB, and maybe he isn’t sold on Smith, than Hill. That, of course, depends on what ScotM has planned for Smith.
JTO is probably gonerz, and bye bye Jamie Martin.
Well, we're waiting....
Martin
I really don’t know how I’ll get over the loss of Jamie Martin.
by David Fucillo on Feb 2, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
I couldn't agree more..
In fact our new OC’s only memory, of Shaun Hill hill.. is him picking apart the Jets, while his HOF QB watched Humbly from the sidelines.. after Raye was Hired, Sing’s words towards Hill were.. " I feel VERY good about Shaun right now.." and his words towards Smith were.. “will have to see about Alex..” which he has actually said all along.. Even though he did say he wants another QB, he never said anyting about Smith even being here next year.. I hope they trade him to San Diego..
I think underneath it all, Sing wants Hill, to step up ansd show him somthing, being the main reason he wasn’t naming him the starter, now that job is becoming Raye’s. Raye will have a very unbiased approach, he will watch how the team rallies around each QB. Shaun’s Late season playing time, and repore, with the recievers, and o-line, and team in general… not to mention his 1st impression???
Unless Garcia is here, I would put my money on Hill as the Starter this coming season.
But Chuck you must realize.. this board is predominantly run by people who favor Smith over Hill.
And untill he wins everyone over, I’d say, by mid-season next year.. that won’t change.
If I was Shaun Hill. I would be lobbying for Bruce, to stick around, one more year.
If I’m Sing, I trust Raye with my offense, if I’m Raye, I trust Shaun Hill with the Ball, If I’m Shaun, I trust Bruce, to be in the right place, at the right time. Not that I don’t like the kids, I can’t wait for them to come along, but we need Bruce one more year..
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on Feb 3, 2009 9:15 PM PST up reply actions
I think both QBs (Hill and Smith) would be effective in the kind of system McSing want, it surely play their strengths, and the teams. Whats this I hear about Brady coming to the bay?
"Im coming from the land of the New Rising sun"
Jimmy Hendrix
I give the early returns to Hill
Just going off what we’ve heard so far I think Raye is with Singletary about the ball-control offense and field position game. Hill’s best attribute is his ability to avoid negative plays. I think Singletary would rather have a bigger QB who can take some shots down the field but he won’t stand for picks, sacks, and fumbles.
I don’t think either Smith or Hill will wow anybody at this point so it’s going to come down to who protects the ball better and right now I think that’s Hill.
I would expect to see more of Thomas Clayton next year, the two back system needs to be implemented and i dont feel Foster would be too effective in that role. give clayton a chance.
"Im coming from the land of the New Rising Sun"
Jimmy Hendrix
Foster
I wanna see Clayton as the main guy, but I don’t know if I agree that Foster can’t be effective in the two-back system. He played primarily in two back systems in Carolina.
by David Fucillo on Feb 3, 2009 6:23 PM PST up reply actions
Hands down, Alex Smith
This is a dumb poll, but because it’s offseason, I’m biting. Hill was the starter at the end of the season, so the best he can do with Raye is keep the #1 position. Smith, on the other hand is at least going to get another shot with Raye. He wasn’t going anywhere with Martz, so Raye at least provides an opportunity for an open audition. Raye offers Smith’s career much more upside, therefore, much more benefit.
offseason
Indeed it’s the offseason and I’ll throw up just about anything to get new posts out there.
by David Fucillo on Feb 4, 2009 12:09 AM PST up reply actions
While...
… I’m not ready to say Smith will come anywhere close to being a starter, I am willing to speculate that Raye may offer Smith a little bit of “continuity,” sort of. No one really knows how Raye is going to call plays, but it’s very possible that his style is somewhat similar to that of Norv Turner (maybe minus some, or a lot, of the deeper attack). If that is the case, then it could possibly play right into Smith’s wheel house, because his only season of improvement came under that system.
Of course, the natural question would be if Smith’s “success” was more a result of Turner’s tutelage or his system.
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