ESPN "Story" about Brady Quinn and the 49ers
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 8:47 AM PDT
in San Francisco 49ers News
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PrintFOOCH'S UPDATE 2:15PM: Barrows posted that the 49ers have denied being the mystery team mentioned in the ESPN rumor. Makes me feel better about shooting this down earlier. Could certainly be a smokescreen, but informative to hear.
Earlier today The National Football Post posted a story stating that the Browns had an offer of a first round pick for Brady Quinn. It is a mystery team, thus opening the door for random speculation by the media.
Enter ESPN.com's Rumor Mill.
The Rumor Mill article points to a San Francisco Chronicle article that says:
According to a report from the San Francisco Chronicle, former No. 1 overall pick Alex Smith looked pretty bad during the San Francisco 49ers' most recent minicamp. Smith's passes were loose, and it appeared that he was still suffering some after-effects of his shoulder surgery.
The article points to the recent visits of Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez as leading to speculation that the team isn't happy with Smith and Hill. Personally, whether or not they're happy with them, I see this as doing their due diligence.
The article mentions how Stafford and Sanchez will likely be gone at 10 and Freeman would be a reach there. This leads to their own bit of speculation:
Therefore, the 49ers could very likely be the mystery team that has been linked to a trade with the Cleveland Browns for Brady Quinn. The National Football Post has been informed by multiple sources that there is a team who has put a first round pick on the table in exchange for Quinn, and the Niners would make a world of sense in that role. The team has searched fruitlessly for a stud quarterback since the Jeff Garcia days earlier this decade, and by all indications Quinn is a superstar waiting for the right situation.
Needless to say, this "rumor" must be taken with a ginormous grain of salt. Whether you think this would be a significant upgrade or not, it's based on very weak circumstantial evidence at best. People can crow for Quinn in this post all they want, but I just wanted to clear up the rumor aspect of it.
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I'd rather
Cleveland trade us Anderson for a 3rd or 4th over Quinn at all. I’m not saying I want Derek Anderson, I’m just saying if we had to get a QB from Cleveland, I wouldn’t really want Quinn.
Well, maybe if the trade was right, but a first round pick doesn’t seem reasonable for Quinn at this point. If he was coming off a 3000 yard, 20 TD season, perhaps. From everything I’ve seen on Quinn, he seems kinda soft.
I don’t mind rumours, but I like them better when the players involved are better.
by Andrew Davidson on Apr 14, 2009 9:00 AM PDT reply actions
We would might trade anderson for a 2nd rounder or an early 3rd
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Apr 14, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
How about...
We give them Smith and one of those 5th rounders, that would make me happy. I think Quinn will be really good when given the right chance.
NOOO!!
I say if they are willing to package a first round pick they should do so to pick up Sanchez. Brady (to me at least) has bust potential written all over. Trade up for Sanchez!!
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Really?
What does Sanchez have that Quinn doesn’t?
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I know it means very little...
… and that it’s just a buzzword, but many people (scouts and such) say that Sanchez has the “it” factor. I don’t remember many (if any) people saying that about Quinn a couple years ago.
I’m in the “NO QUINN” boat as well. It seems that there are a lot of us on that boat.
this is such an overused word
“it factor.” I do remember this one guy who had the “it factor” coming out of college- his name was Alex Smith
Really?
I don’t recall people using that word on Smith, Rodgers, or Campbell. That year’s QB class was about as bad as the upcoming one is. Only difference is that there is a QB who has lots of physical tools AND played in a pro-style offense. The 2005 draft’s QBs seemed to always split those two traits.
guess they used "intangables" vs "it factor." Close enough
Alex SMith from Mel Keiper- ESPN NFL Draft 2005
“Strengths: Is as good as it gets from an intangibles standpoint. Is an outstanding leader both in terms of vocally and by example. An extremely hard worker on the field, in the classroom and in the weight room. Is the most cerebral quarterback in this class. Has an outstanding feel for the game, makes few mistakes and understands the importance of ball security. Is one of the most competitive prospects in this class. A “gym-rat” type that just loves playing the game. Has sound mechanics. Delivery is quick and his release point is high. Is a tall QB that rarely has a ball batted down. Does an excellent job of finding throwing windows. Is at his best on short-to-intermediate routes. Has excellent timing and touch. Displays outstanding field vision. Understands how to make a pre-snap read and does a great job of picking up the blitz. Will make his progression reads, shows patience in the pocket and also does a good job of finding open receivers on the move after the original play has broken down. Has very good mobility. Shows quick feet and is fluid. Has a terrific pocket presence. Shows good balance and body control, especially for a taller athlete. Is a threat to run. Doesn’t possess Mike Vick’s type of explosiveness but has above average speed. Reminds us of a young Brett Favre — shows some elusiveness and a lot of toughness as a runner. Good vision and a great feel for where the first down markers are. Is mechanically sound and accurate when throwing on the run."
Wow
Is a tall QB that rarely has a ball batted down.
Except when opposing defensive linemen put their hands above their shoulders.
Reminds us of a young Brett Favre — shows some elusiveness and a lot of toughness as a runner.
A young Brett Favre? Toughness as a runner? Just a couple more reminders of why I never take anything Kiper says seriously.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Apr 14, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
One guy..
… does not qualify as “people”. Of course my memory could be wrong, but it’d be interesting to see what other draft people had to say back then.
The main thing I recall (faulty memory may apply) is that the Niners didn’t want to draft #1 that year, and they couldn’t trade out of the #1 spot because nobody ELSE wanted to draft there either. It seemed like Smith was as close to a “can miss” prospect as you can get without entering the NFL with only one arm.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
yet another...
…in a long line of Mel Kiper epic fails.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 14, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
There is a problem with everyone's analysis on any player.
Mel Keiper sees things his way as does everyone else including you and I. The problem is no one is completely right, just some people are very very lucky like the Patriots when they drafted Brady instead of Tim Rattay which the 49ers took. Apparently the Patriots were going to take one of these two and they chose the right one.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I remember...
everyone seemed to like Alex a hair more than Aaron Rogers because they claimed Alex had more “intangibles”. I don’t know how you can classify that, but in hindsight, that is one of the worst evaluations I can recall in recent memory. While Rogers hasn’t taken his team to the post-season yet, he looks miles ahead of Alex. Granted he was put in a better situation, but when it comes down to it, it’s how you play the game, and Alex stinks. I would, however, be in favor of Quinn maybe for a second-round, and we can throw Alex in to “sweeten” the deal. Sorry Brownies!
That's what she said.
Comparing...
… Rodgers to Smith now is utterly useless. Who’s to say that a cerebral QB who supposedly gets really good when he completely gets it wouldn’t be really good if he, you know, had two years to sit and learn behind one of the best QBs of all time?
The situation wasn’t just a “better situation.” It was probably one of the MOST ideal situations EVER presented to a first round QB.
I don’t know about that. Rodgers should have lead a Cal team to the Rose Bowl if it wasn’t for his receivers dropping TWO TD passes in the final drive in SoCal.
Did Alex Smith ever take on and thwart an opponent like USC in their own backyard?
Yea
Last off season was really ideal for Rodgers and having to replace Farve was really ideal…..not so much
Rogers got to sit behind and learn from
arguably one of the greatest QB’s of all time. Sounds pretty ideal to me.
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
Nope
If ever listened to any report in Green Bay you’d know Brett Farve never did a thing to take Rodgers under his wing.
Maybe the sitting part helped.
Sitting...
… and watching helps. It also helped that McCarthy, a coveted QB coach, became his head coach during his second year (even though McCarthy probably had a big role in Rodgers not ending up in SF).
Sometimes just being able to watch a guy and learn his work ethic, mechanics, and his preparation process is enough. Especially without the pressure to have to pick it up and run with it. He had to be coached, and in turn he will be a much better player. I have learned plenty of things in life by just watching, I didn’t need someone to sit there and explain it all to me.
Grow up........
When people in the know say a player has the “IT” factor…….look out. The potential for bust is exponentially higher. Leaf, Ware, Manderich, Bosworth, AND Quinn…..All had the “It” Factor. don’t look to far into it.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
by DarkkStarr1 on Apr 14, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
If Quinn...
… had the “it” factor, he wouldn’t have slipped as far as he did.
The slip....
Was due to his overall work at ND. He was heralded as the next big thing. ESPN practiculey followed the guy to the bathroom, but at the combine, he was exposed. A gym rat to be sure, but not nearly as ready as the hype machine made him out to be. besides, the “IT” factor is a term created by said hype machine in order to make certain players stand out above the rest amaking draft choices a little more difficult for the teams up to draft that player. So in essence, “Buyer beware.”
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
im with you fooch
At the moment they both seemed to have proved nothing. Except that Quinn is much more ready to get in and start at QB right now
he cant beat out Derek Anderson
and DA isnt very good… so I wouldnt say Quinn is ready for anything
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Charisma
Sanchez to me is way more charismatic than Quinn which in time will earn him his teammates trust. I watched some of USC’s games and saw how much energy he and enthusiasm this kid had in at his best and how he kicked himself when he struggled.. this passion for the game will or should I say can influence others to play better. I can’t see this kid relaxing when the defense is on the field I see him trying to fire other up and cheering throughout the game… ALA Brett Favre.
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Yes but...
You see that all the time in college. It changes once they get to the NFL, they start getting paid and it becomes more of a job. I am not saying no player in the NFL plays with passion, energy and enthusiasm, but, it’s hard to read into that from their college career.
Well said... we will see how his enthusiasm changes
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
We wont trade Quinn away anyway. We would trade spots though (we have #5) depending on what u offer
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Apr 14, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
According to Maiocco...
This is how Maiocco described Smith in his wrapup of the last minicamp:
—Alex Smith threw the ball with pretty good velocity. The accuracy is about what you’d expect from a man who missed all of last season with a shoulder injury. His throwing motion looked pretty similar to what it has been in the past.
So that begs the question: what in the world is “loose.” Does loose mean that his spirals weren’t tight? Or does it mean his passes were off target? In any case, Maiocco doesn’t make it seem like his lack of accuracy is a result of the shoulder issues, as his motion looks pretty similar to before. Lack of accuracy or a tight spiral can definitely be a side effect of not being allowed to throw a whole lot over the course of six to eight months.
thanks, sfgfan
That’s what I was wondering. I didn’t recall any dire descriptions of Smith at the minicamp.
It’s sort of like someone was rewriting history in order to bolster a rumor.
by Bob In Beaverton on Apr 14, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Alex Smith
I’m still pulling for him, but I would rather have Quinn over Sanchez, the latter played only one year of college. At least Brady has been in the NFL for a couple of years now.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 9:15 AM PDT reply actions
No Sense
If Quinn is a super star in the waiting why would the Browns want to trade him away? Is Anderson MORE of a super star? If not, why would they trade away their future? This is a sucker deal if the 49ers give away their 10. I can see the Jets making this trade with their lower first round pick. But Shaun hill is NOT the problem with this team. We need so many other pieces, this would be a truly disruptive and frustrating move. Get a safety/CB like Jennings. Or get a PR like Everette Brown. Or get a truly game changinf OL like Monroe if he falls to 10. These are pieces we did not address well enough in free agency. We need to focus on building the team around Hill and Gore this coming year. Pick up a potential future QB in a later round – - like a Steve McGee in round 4, if we think Smith isn’t going to cut it as a back up. But not Quinn for our 1st rounder. Quinn would make a big splash, but then disrupt all the chemistry built up from the end of last year — with Hill suddenly on the bench again after performing as well as anyone could have hoped for under stressful and confusing circumstances. Can we just see what he gives us as a starter with ONE coordinator and a head coach who believes in him for at least one season? Or half a season! Next year plenty of intriguing QBs will be around in the draft if we are sure that we need a new QB. But Shaun Hill on a great team — New England, for instance, would do GREAT things! He’s NOT the problem. The focus needs to turn elsewhere in the draft.
If Quinn is a super star in the waiting why would the Browns want to trade him away? Is Anderson MORE of a super star? If not, why would they trade away their future?
Keep in mind, there is a new coaching staff in Cleveland. Typically new guys want “their” guys, not guys someone else drafted. Quinn to one guy is a star in the waiting, but to another guy a bust in the waiting.
by Andrew Davidson on Apr 14, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
i vote bust
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
well of course you say that
your a browns/irish fan with the name Brady Quinn is Beast
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 16, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Let me clarify my stance
I do not think that the niners should waste their first round choice on a QB. Period
That being said, if we do waste a first round pick, I would rather it be on Quinn than Sanchez.
If you are stating your opinion on this, please clarify both: 1) if you would be ok with the niners using 1st pick on a QB AND 2) Quinn vs Sanchez.
???
After the lack of interest in a quality QB with Cutler on the market I have a hard time believing this is much more than headgames to try and create value with their pick to trade down. Why would they pass on Cutler and move on Quinn. Think about it people.
cutler went for 2 first round picks, plus a 3rd round pick, plus a starting qb
thats a lot of lumber. Way more than one first round pick
Simple answer.....
The Broncos didn’t want Cutler to leave, but he forced the issue. Thusly, they wanted to make the asking price as steep aspossible so many teams would balk at the opportunity. Lastly, The Browns have the luxury of Derek Anderson on the roster, so if Quinn leaves, they aaren’t stuck with nothing. And they have a 1st rd draft choice to boot.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
by DarkkStarr1 on Apr 14, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
For starters...
The asking price for Cutler was much higher then the “suggested” asking price for Quinn. If the 49ers could have landed Cutler for just the 10th pick I bet he would be on the team right now. With that said, my stance is this: If the team wants a new QB, I’d be a lot happier with Quinn then either Sanchez or Stafford. I mean, Quinn rocks in those EAS commercials.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
The way I look at it
49ers leadership is content on losing. They give you this warm fuzzy feeling this time of year telling their fans that we are on our way and rebuilding. Then everyone believes and waits for the season to start. It is time to believe that rebuilding is past us when some of the original rebuilding players are nearing RETIREMENT or have been traded. By not making BOLD moves on Proven guys like Cutler is says to fans like myself that they are not about winning but rather about fooling the fan into believing in order to put buts in the seats in the worst football stadium in the country.
Riiiight....
The best way to make money is to continuously generate false promises?
Please. The ownership has been trying to win. The people they have entrusted to run the football team have had a long uphill battle and at some points the progress stalled quite a bit (i.e. McCarthy leaving, Turner leaving, Nolan choosing Hostler, Smith hurt, etc).
You can maybe say the Yorks are inexperienced earlier on during their reign and you may be accurate. That’s why they learned from their mistakes, found football people to run the team and pretty much have taken a back seat. You can’t, however, blame them for all the uncontrollable circumstances that have hurt this team more than any other reasons.
Oh come on can you honestly say that they have been out on the front lines obtaining quality YOUNG free agents when they became available? That is because they cost to much to obtain. There have been SEVERAL needs that could have been filled in the free agency this year with QUALITY players but did they do it? No because they believe the same losing strategy that has not worked for years (building through the draft) is eventually going to work. They make no bold moves that indicate that they are making any sort of effort in improving their current status in the league. If they have please point it out?
???
No because they believe the same losing strategy that has not worked for years (building through the draft) is eventually going to work.
Don’t we have Florida Danny writing a series of front page posts about the benefits of “building through the draft,” including this little tidbit:
The left side of the table (top 10 in years of experience for drafted starters) is basically a who’s who of successful teams over the past 3 seasons, including the 3 Super Bowl champs, whereas the right side (bottom 10) is a list of perennial cellar-dwellars and underachievers during that time. Obviously, there isn’t a 1-to-1 relationship here; you can definitely see a situation where a free-agent-laden team wins a lot of games. Nevertheless, the moral of the story is this: If you want to win games in the NFL, one effective way to get there is by drafting players who become full-time starters.
They way to build a good, successful, conistantly competative team is through the draft.
The problem with “obtaining quality YOUNG free agents when they became available” is that they are expensive once they hit the FA market, and you can only afford so many on your team. The best way is to draft them yourself and sign them to long term deals before they hit the market.
Well
if you want to go back 8 years, the ‘01 and ’02 teams were pretty good. That’s about where the downhill spiral began. Do you remeber a man named Terry Donahue? He made some very poor choices, which lead to the team falling apart. And you can’t say things haven’t gotten better since that 2-14 disaster a few years back.
What "football people"?...
Both the GM and HC are from the Nolan regime, the one that wasn’t very good. If this is how the 49ers “try to win”, then they don’t have good “football people” anywhere in HQ.
Well, we're waiting....
Ever since
they hired Erickson to run the show I have believed that they really don’t care about championships anymore. Don’t get me wrong they are still my #1 team but they are beginning to look like idiots.
On a side note I do however believe in the vision of Singletary. I just hope that I am not being dupped again into believing that this year will be better. AGAIN!!!!
Yes, and they were morons
for firing Mooch in the first place and he took us the the divisional round. And they should have kept either Garcia or TO and this and that. Yes, in those first few years they made plenty of mistakes. But, I do think they’ve learned from them. I mean in all honestly, do you think there’s a “Running an NFL Franchise for Dummies” book out there? It takes years of messing up to realize the right formula for you and those around you.
Exactly.
They were inexperienced owners, who didn’t even a front office that knew very much about football. Now they’re giving promotions to other team’s front office personnel to help run the team.
I think the BIGGEST favor the Yorks have done for the team is to step away from managing the day-to-day football stuff. Just sign the checks when they’re requested, and manage other things such as marketing and the stadium issue.
Well, let's see what they have learned...
Just from the Nolan experience. Ok, so they have a problem with the turnaround of offensive coaches. So what do the 49ers do? Hire a Head Coach who has never been a coordinator on either side of the ball. So, we’ve learned that brining in neophyte HC, and putting him in a expanded role as “the face of the Organization” didn’t work out that well. What do the 49ers do? Basically do the same thing all over again, since they still don’t have defined roles in the FO. The 49ers found oput they needed a GM last season. What did they do? Promote a guy they never even considered before Nolan brought him in, a guy whose track record is still suspect. Thwe 49ers realized they need a new face of the Organization, since York Sr. was really looking bad in all this, given his inexperience in football. What did the 49ers do? Give the keys to York Jr., who has no experience (but some background) in leading the Organization.
Yeah, they have really leaned something. I don’t know what it is, but they have convinced some people that they have.
Well, we're waiting....
The problem with Nolan
was he couldn’t coach his way out of a paper bag. But if you look at how he’s cleaned up the salary cap issues, brought in young talent, and set this team up to be a few pieces away from winning football again, you can’t completly knock on him. Granted he was not a good coach, but him and McC did build a team that has one of the youngest rosters, is in the top 1/3 of the league in cap space, and has a solid core of young talent to build on.
You don’t come back from the bottom of the barrel in 1 season. And granted, teams have hit bottom and come back faster, but I would bet most of those teams had a bad year, coupled with a string of key injuries. The Niners were just decimated by years of mismanagement… and as blasphemous as this may seem, even back into the Eddie D/Policy years. The success of the 90s was mortgage on the team’s future, and we’ve been paying for it for the past few years. Luckily I think we’re nearing the end of our debts and have brighter days in the near future.
Blasphemous!
DeBartolo/Policy were definitely a contributing factor to the 49ers of the late 90s and early 2000s. As you pointed out, they didn’t even think twice about mortgaging the team’s future dollars to “win now”. Policy provided quite a few thrills in the 90s, but in the end he hurt the team.
Throw in the Bill Walsh-backed Donahue, the 49ers were a complete mess, or heading in that direction, for over four or five years. That’s not something the team can crawl out of over night. The first thing the Nolan regime did was fix the money issues. It took them two years, but now they’re amongst the league leaders in salary cap space every season. Now the focus on personnel becomes a lot easier, as there isn’t anything holding you back except your own scouting ability.
The 49ers issue now is identifying talent. McCloughan seems to have a grasp on that, to some extent. Now that he’s on his own, we (the fans, media, and outside world) will get to see exactly how much of the previous four years worth of personnel mistakes were because of him 100% or if Nolan had a big part in them as well.
I'd like to get Quinn...
I really like him and I think he’ll be a star in this league one day. I’d give them our #10 for Quinn and their #36.
BTW
Good call on putting up this front page Fooch. I could only imagine the ridiculous redundant fan posts now if this weren’t already here.
agree
Given the number of comments already, I’m sure there’d be several by now.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
i was just coming to see how many there were when i found the article
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Where is the love for Hill?
The guy can’t even get a full year at starting quarterback under his belt because everybody doesn’t think he’s good enough. The guy has the desire to win and shows it, and since he took over last year we did win. Give Hill a shot. There will be better quarterbacks if Hill doesn’t perform. (Tebow)
F Tebow we don’t run the wildcat and I would rather have Bradford than him. He is a good college QB but so what Cordell Stewart.
oh man please dont start this tebow stuff
Hes a system qb. Under Urban Meyer. Just like…
Alex Smith
Agreed
Tebow will not be good in the NFL
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
don't forget.....
Mark Sanchez and Matthew Stafford while you’re at it.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
by DarkkStarr1 on Apr 14, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Sanchez
Would you qualify him as a system QB? He was certainly surrounded by great talent, but it’s my understanding that USC runs a pro-style offense.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
hence the reason they turn out so many pros
I think Sanchez >>>>>>>>>>> Quinn
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Ok......
If it’s a “PRO STYLE” offense…….would that NOT be considered a “system”? Eveyone rails at the QB’s that run the spread in college, then try to make it in the pros. BUT< the fact remains, every coach has a different SYSTEM and it is the PLAYERS that make it work. Want proof? Miami ran that “Wild Cat” Offense last year with Chad Pennington under center. If I’m not mistaken, Chad is about as mobile as a light pole! Yet, when he had to throw, he played well. "Nuff said.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
When people mention...
… “system QB,” they are speaking of the systems that aren’t very pro-like. Yes, Miami ran the wildcat FORMATION quite a few times, but their offense is FAR FROM a wildcat system offense. A “pro style” offense implies the blocking schemes, checkdown patterns, timing, playcalling, and patterns are very similar to the offenses run in the NFL. The spread, while it has most of the routes the pros do, the way those routes affect the other two to four WR/RB/TE on the field is a lot different than the way an offense run out of more traditional two WR formations do.
Hate to bust your chops.......
But, let me test your history knowledge a little. Do you remember the “K” Gun and the “Run and Shoot?” Both were offenses run by the Buffalo Cills and the Houstan Oilers respectively. Yet, neither QB of those teams played in a “Spread Offense” in college. In fact, Jim Kelly used the “K” gun to get to 4 SB. Warren Moon, played most of his career in Canada where they didn’t have a “Spread” O, yet, he still put up HUGE #‘s and came within a D’s callapse of going to the SB.
Lastly, Let’s not forget Kurt Warner who played most of his Career in the Arena League. Yet, since joining the ranks of the NFL, he has only gone to the SB twice, (1 win), won the MVP 1 and broken many records along the way. Are you trying to tell me the Arena League plays the same kinda PRO STYLE O as the NFL? If not, how do you explain these gentlemen doing so well? It all depends on the player and the situation they find themselves in.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
I'm not arguing...
… that the spread-type systems don’t work. I’m saying that hardly ANY teams in the NFL use a spread, offense. The closest examples you’ll get now-a-days is New England or Indy.
I’m not saying it’s completely impossible for a spread QB to make it in the NFL. But to go from a spread to a more traditional offense is a huge transition, and not all players can make it. Sometimes the risk of said transition is a little much for a first rounder.
tebow will be a 4th rounder
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I like Hill, but...
I admire what Shaun Hil has done for this franchise. I like him as a player and I think he has good character. But has his potential peaked? I’m not trying to throw him under the bus, but if we have a chance to get Quinn ( and this is ALL speculation) with a world of experiance at ND with a pro-style offense, we’d be crazy not to ENTERTAIN the idea at least. The way I see Hill, he’s good for 8-10 wins a season, but I’m not sure how he’d handle the pressure of the post-season.
That's what she said.
The thing is, if you don’t project a guy on your team to be a star player, you have to examine other available options, in an effort to improve your team. My bet is the Niners don’t walk away with Quinn on our roster, but I think it’s got to be in their best interest to determine a) what it would take to get him and b) if Quinn projects to actually BE an improvement over Hill. And if he IS an improvement over Hill, they still need to determine if that improvement is worth the #10 pick in the draft. I suspect they are going to determine he’s not worth it.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
This.
It’s such a huge (and extremely common) fallacy for fans to think that just because player X didn’t end up with team A, team A wasn’t interested, when that may not be the issue at all. Using Quinn as an example, if he doesn’t end up with the 49ers and some team traded a mid-first round pick for him, maybe the 49ers thought he was only worthy of round two pick.
I have enough confidence in the 49ers personnel people to believe that they’re at least doing their due diligence in that regard.
I’m also of the mindset that Quinn isn’t a #10 pick better than Hill.
We don't need Tebow....
….we already have Moran Norris and Zak Keasey. Because surely you don’t think he’ll be an NFL Quarterback.
Never use a big word where a diminutive alternative would suffice.
by YoungWillis on Apr 14, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Arm Strength
is the problem with Hill. I’m glad he came in and helped the team win and I think he IS getting a bum deal here, but this is business. He’ll never be able to stretch the D with his arm like Cutler or Quinn or even Smith, so if Alex doesn’t look great in camp the team will have to look for someone else. I love Smith and wish he would come out firing this year, but if not… “Quinn” would look great on the back of a SF jersey.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 10:10 AM PDT reply actions
Honestly
If we want an NFL quality QB that we can trade back for we should go after Graham Harrell. We could trade back and gain more picks and pick up what I view to be the sleeper as far as NFL QB’s is concerned.
Graham Harrell
Was horrible at the Senior Bowl and might not even get drafted.. I guess we could sign him as a free agent.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
You see that is that is the problem with some people. How he played in the Senior bowl indicates his quality? I look at his body of work during his career and 132 TD passes at the BCS level is hard to discount.
system QB
Harrell could certainly work out, but his numbers come in a system that does not work in the NFL to that extent. His numbers are inflated by the offense he played in. Of course that’s one of the problems with looking at college stats given some of the dramatic differences in offenses.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
But..
The “Spread Offense” that Tech runs is so QB friendly is it not? Colt Brennen put up ridiculous numbers in his college career, albeit not a BCS conference, but still a spread offense. Great college stats don’t equal a great NFL career. See – Leaf, Ryan – Harrington, Joey – Carr, David just to name a few recent players. I’m not saying Harrell will be a bad NFL QB, I just think he had an chance to prove himself in the Senior Bowl and didn’t.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
All I am saying
Is if we are set on building through the draft. We could trade back and stockpile some picks. Get some much needed help on the O-line and D front. Then pick up Harrell in the later rounds. He wouldn’t cost much and the “potenial” benifit absolutly outweights the cost. Besides if we are focusing on being a running team any clown can pitch or hand the ball off.
I'll say this...
If the 9ers don’t get Quinn. I wouldn’t mind taking a shot a Harrell. What I wouldn’t like is if they passed on Quinn because they liked Harrell in the later rounds.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd rather have
Nate Davis or Stephen McGee or Brian Hoyer or Rhett Bomar
than Harrell
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
if he can throw a football i dont care
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Thats not right to say. He has a learning disorder.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Apr 14, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Im just saying its not right to make fun of someone cuz of that.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Apr 14, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
learning disabilities
Frank Gore has dyslexia and he’s done ok for himself. I realize it’s tougher for a QB, but it doesn’t mean he can’t overcome it. And it’s not like they’d be investing first or second round money in him.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
PRAY FOR QUINN
That’s all I will be doing this guy was a stud in college is bound to be one in the NFL. This to me is the best thing that could happen get my favorite QB from ND playing for the Niners like MOntana
by IRISHNINERSAVAGE on Apr 14, 2009 10:12 AM PDT reply actions
??
Stud in college? What did he win exactly?
Here is a lil run down for you I have much more
CAREER: A contender for college football’s highest honors this season … rated the number-one quarterback in college football for 2006 by The Sporting News and Lindy’s … a 2006 first-team preseason All-America selection by The Sporting News, Lindy’s, Athlon, Street & Smith’s and CBSSportsLine.com … a preseason Maxwell Award candidate … the most prolific passer in Notre Dame’s storied history … owns 30 Notre Dame records (nine career, nine single-season, four single-game and eight others) … two-time Irish captain, joining Tom Zbikowski and Travis Thomas as Notre Dame’s 2006 captains.
by IRISHNINERSAVAGE on Apr 14, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I Agree..........
Everyone’s talkin about #‘s from college to the NFL doesn’t equal out. Well, this answers the question on Quinn. HE DIDN’T WIN ANYTHING! People only look at him because of the Daunte Culpepper factor. HE’s a Linebacker playing QB. Yes…..he’s a gym rat. But so far Quinn has had his opportunities to cement the starting QB position in Cleveland, Undoubtly 1 of Hercules’s 12 labors right? And he hasn’t even been able to do that. As a matter of course, I think the only reason why he wasn’t gotten rid of over Charlie Frye was Brady cost a first rd pick.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
by DarkkStarr1 on Apr 14, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
umm...
But so far Quinn has had his opportunities to cement the starting QB position in Cleveland
when exactly?
year 1: he was a rookie and CLE’s starting QB was having a career year.
year 2: CLE had just given said starting QB a ridiculous new contract. and even with that, they finally started quinn. he played well, and then got injured. he’s not “injury prone” so this was more of a fluke thing than anything.
i don’t see “opportunities” there.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 14, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Opportunities arose....
When Anderson had his Sophmore jinx and was ineffective. Who do you thik took over the snaps? Quinn. And if he was such a hot commodity he wouldn’t be on the trading block would he? If you want fuerther proof, look up Collins, Kerry circa ‘07-’08 to see what happens when a player is given a small opportunity and takes it by the horns.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
keep in mind...
…as i said in my comment that CLE had just given anderson a 3 year, $24M contract that offseason. do you honestly believe they were going to bench him because of “ineffectiveness” after committing that much long-term money to him? for a perfect example of the strong likelihood that a long-term investment QB is going to be given every chance under the sun to fulfill the value of his contract, look no further than Smith, Alex circa right now.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 16, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
correction
Smith, Alex circa every year…forgot he just redid his contract.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 16, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
HERE IS A LIST
Following the 2006 season, Quinn won several awards, including the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award17 for the best college quarterback in the nation and the Maxwell Award18 for the best college football player. Brady finished third in the Heisman Trophy balloting behind Troy Smith and Darren McFadden.19 He was also named the Cingular All-America Player of the Year20 and was named to the 2006 AP All-America Team as a second-team quarterback.21
And since i watched him in college and am a die hard ND fan as much as a NIner fan I good with takin him. He has better numbers then most Qb’s and will be a stud if given the chance
by IRISHNINERSAVAGE on Apr 14, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I think
you are missing the point. What did he win inside the lines. When you play on a really bad team it is easy to outshine some. And when you need to throw to play catch up your numbers become inflated. I don’t care if he won his knot tying patch while at ND I want to know what significant BOWL games he took his team to and WON?
OH well in that case
Since the bowl system is such a proven way to judge college teams are we really going to judge players off of bowl games really I mean REALLY. The most screwed up rating system in any sports is how you want to rate Quinn LMAO. Sorry I watch the games and go off of individual effort and play making ability’s which Quinn has. IF they would of had a defense and lil bit better of a team Im sure he would be a God to some lol. Sorry but I will not judge anything off of the most screwed up rating system to date. We would be blessed to have him and he would be better then what we have now. But I really do respect Hill all in all.
by IRISHNINERSAVAGE on Apr 14, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Russell
So the LSU QB that has amounted to nothing should be take him cause he won the national title???? I think not
by IRISHNINERSAVAGE on Apr 14, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Id rather have Russell than Quinn
in a heartbeat..
excepting the contract
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Jamarcus has a better arm, is more mobile
and I think its nearly as bad as he looks. Anytime someone dons silver and black they regress to high school quality play.
That being said, I have never been a fan of brady quinn. I think he throws one hell of a ball, got a rocket arm, but accuracy isnt great, and mobility isnt great, and he just seems like one of those guys the media brands to be a leader but the team wouldnt follow. Not a bad guy just not a leader. Arod-esque if you will.
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
QBs don't win...
football teams win. football is by far the least individual-driven sport when it comes to winning. just ask dan marino.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 14, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
lots of PREseason awards
no postseason ones…
and he was part of some of the worst irish teams ever
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
VINCE YOUNG
another great bowl winning QB that has proved a loser and can’t handle the NFL
by IRISHNINERSAVAGE on Apr 14, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
i didnt think Vince had what it takes either....
running QBs either need to learn to throw the ball or find a vickesque offense with a coach who will change the whole team for him. And vick had a cannon, young has a bb gun.
I make no qualms about winning bowl games as a reason for success, but when you can recruit like ND can, get freebie passes into bowlgames and get national television, you BETTER win. He did not, and quite frankly never really looked that good to begin with. Its not just me either. 17 teams passed on him as well. That says something
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually wouldn't mind Quinn
but not for that price…
A second…ok
I somehow doubt it’d be a straight trade for the #10…what about our 1st and 5th for Quinn and their 3rd. That’d be interesting, but I still don’t think I’d go for it.
FYI...
Quinn at ND: 46 games started, 57.4% completion percentage
Cutler at Vandy: 45 games started, 57.2% completion percentage
I know stats aren’t everything, but just saying.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 14, 2009 11:26 AM PDT reply actions
Quinn is not worthy of a #10 overall pick
Did you guys forgot he was sweating balls in the green room before the Browns needed some eye candy for the lady/tight-end fans?
Yes, he was good in college but have yet to show anything in the pros in his 4-5 games as a NFL QB. With that said, he is worthy of a 3rd round pick so maybe Mangenius is so tired of Quinn leaving behind empty EAS cans 24/7 that he’ll ship him out West for just that.
Now I’m done.
Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems
A 3rd rounder for Quinn at best
Cleveland cant get more, he couldnt even beat out Derek Anderson
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 11:34 AM PDT reply actions
When evaluating Quinn
Remember he’s been playing for the Browns. Since Jim Brown retired what player has looked good in a Browns jersey?
HAHAHAHA
Ken Dorsey’s last few games in 2008 as a QB for the Browns made Alex Smith look like a hybrid of Joe Montana and Babe Ruth.
0 TDs, 7 INTs, 26.4 QB rating
Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems
by Scooter Ellis on Apr 14, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Those are good numbers!
I challenge you to find ONE quarterback from Orinda that put up better numbers at the Pro level than Dorsey has!
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
You're right, Dorsey's the man...
when it comes to male Caucasians under 30 years old that play in the NFL as a starting quarterback for a team named after a color who is from the Bay Area and has once led his college team to the National Title but also possesses an arm that’s made out of play-doh.
Solid numbers indeed.
Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems
by Scooter Ellis on Apr 14, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
in re fooch's claim that this story is bogus from a niner perspective...
why the (site decorum) would CLE ever trade quinn in the first place? QBs like quinn (1st-round pick, strong college pedigree) just don’t get traded this early in their careers. you want proof? there were 35 QBs taken in the first 2 rounds from 1997-2006. only one of them besides cutler was traded during his 1st 3 years. any guesses? how about jim druckenmiller.
so basically, there are 2 pathways to getting traded as a sub-25 former-1st-round QB in the NFL:
1. be as god-awful as druckenmiller and have a team that will actually trade for him.
2. start a circular firing squad like cutler did.
are either of these in play at the moment in CLE? there’s no evidence of that.
in other words, this story is BS.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 14, 2009 11:47 AM PDT reply actions
This does sound like Pre-Draft smokescreen
Although reports did come back saying Alex Smith entered camp a little chunky.
Chunky...
… or put on muscle? I seem to recall Barrows and/or Maiocco saying he’s been in the weight room a lot and putting on my “bulk”. I don’t think they meant to say “chunk”.
you're right on this...
except it was lynch…here’s the link
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 14, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Smith fails to show any signs of being a marginal backup, can the 49er’s just release him already?
http://www.49ersboard.blogspot.com
The reason I ask this is because I don’t think Smith has shown anything whatsoever as a backup. As in, he’s not provided any evidence that he is or is not a viable option. He didn’t play at all last year, and the year before that he was the starter before going down with a shoulder injury. He’s never been a backup QB at the NFL level. So is there really any evidence that he’s not a good option as the #2 QB? Or is it possible that sitting on the bench and learning the offense in non-gameday situations might be a good thing for him the Niners, and their fans?
My question is really just, has he given any proof recently that he can’t perform as the backup QB?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
So,
I guess I couldn’t prove to you that Peyton Manning would be a marginal backup based on that assessment
http://www.49ersboard.blogspot.com
Do you really think that’s a fair comparison? You could have easily pointed to someone like Cade McNown or Tim Couch for a better comp.
But regardless, I still fail to see your proof.
2005 – Rookie year, came in for mop-up duty when Rattay went down. Didn’t look good.
2006 – Second year, looked just fine and demonstrated growth while playing for an OC who worked to properly develop him.
2007 – Smith showed regression in an awful offensive scheme, where even the fans knew they were going run-run-pass on first, second and third downs respectively. A shoulder injury is sustained, Smith comes back early when he apparently should have stayed off the field longer. Looks even worse before getting pulled.
2008 – DNP
Basically, what I’d like is to see your proof that Smith is “obviously” a bust and is worthless as even a backup QB. You’ve stated that he shows no signs of being even a marginal backup, but you haven’t built a case. Can you do that, or are you simply reaching a conclusion without researching your position?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
The problem was the 49ers drafted a QB before getting the OL and WR postitions set.
Now if we draft a OT and a WR and next year draft a QB. By the time he is ready to start (1 to 2 years) then he will have a chance to make it.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
No, it wasn't a fair comparison at all
He’s never been a backup QB at the NFL level. So is there really any evidence that he’s not a good option as the #2 QB
But, now I know that you’re capable of envisioning a player that hasn’t had much time at back up, as a back up.
Which tells me you’re willing to play ignorant, just to make it tougher on me to explain my opinion. If you’re willing to do that, I really don’t see any point in making an argument since I believe in the end you’ll be too arrogant to say you’re wrong (If, you even are wrong).
http://www.49ersboard.blogspot.com
Whoa whoa whoa! So it’s MY fault you can’t argue your point effectively? Sorry, supraman! I didn’t mean to make it TOUGH on you! Sorry to ask you to actually build a case to support what you’re claiming is an obvious fact!
I really don’t see any point in making an argument since I believe in the end you’ll be too arrogant to say you’re wrong
Look dude, this isn’t an argument I’m making, so don’t try to get all high and mighty with me. You might notice I haven’t argued at all that Smith CAN be a proficient backup. I’ve provided counter-evidence to support the notion that he hasn’t OBVIOUSLY proven he can’t be. And don’t pull this weak “arrogant” bullcrap on me, just because you can’t create a case. That’s on you, my friend. I didn’t say you’re wrong, I’m looking for you to tell me why you’re right. If you can’t do that, just say so.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Apology accepted
It’s just annoying, when someone pretends that they’re incapable of creating a rational thought without concrete proof.
I could argue about why I don’t think Smith is an NFL QB, but I don’t have unarguable premises, therefore it would prove to be a waste.
http://www.49ersboard.blogspot.com
I’m not asking for concrete proof, I was simply asking you what you based your opinion on. Look, people can argue for days as to why they think one thing or another. That ain’t new, baby. Debate can be a healthy thing, and if you can stand by your point, good on ya!
But if you’re just saying someone obviously sucks, and you don’t have a foundation for that argument… Maybe you could look it up. What I’m asking is for you to open your mind and be willing to be wrong if you find out you don’t really have a basis for your opinion, or if the stats show you to be wrong. I’m not trying to make you wrong, I’m just saying it’s okay if you think you ARE wrong. And if you find you have a basis for your opinion, and you think you’re right still, then you’ll have a stronger opinion in the first place.
Now can we still be cool? Or is that too arrogant of me?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I have a FanPost somewhere on this site
about how I dislike Smith. It’s not that I’m mad that you questioned me or anything, it’s more of how you perceived(context?) that you couldn’t ever imagine, why Smith couldn’t be a back up, due to him not being a back up in the NFL.
but
It’s all water under the bridge now,
and
In case you couldn’t tell, Alex Smith is a very sensitive topic with me.
http://www.49ersboard.blogspot.com
Poor choice of wording on my part
it’s more of how you perceived(context?) that you couldn’t ever imagine, why Smith couldn’t be a back up, due to him not being a back up in the NFL.
I didn’t mean to imply that, so that’s all on me. My point was simply that I didn’t see the statistical evidence to support him not being a viable option as the #2 QB for us or any team, when the numbers he’s provided have come from too early in his career, in a bad offensive system, or after an injury he appeared not to be really ready to return from. I do suspect there’s evidence there. My apologies, though, I do tend to get overly confrontational on this board, though I usually don’t mean to be.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Thought fail!
I do suspect there’s evidence there.
Didn’t complete this thought…
I do suspect there’s evidence to support your position if you look for it.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
What about
his good performances?
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I bet behind every so called "good performance"
is Gore causing havoc either on the ground or in the flats
http://www.49ersboard.blogspot.com
Before I deceide about Smith and Quinn
I would like to know what the team doctor said about Smiths arm. Quinn hasn’t proven anything, so to trading a first rd. pick for a unproven player is not worthy. If it is true about Smith, than trade up and get Sanchez.. Regarding Hill, His numbers are very good considering the OL suck. If you talk about performances, you need to check his numbers! I have over and over and he is better than 60% of the starting QBs’ in the League. Check NFL,Player and situationals stat.
Yes but...
The question isn’t how well Hill played last year, I’m sure we can all agree that he gave us all hope. as i said before though, the question remains about his arm strength, or lack thereof. He isn’t going to be the future of our franchise, that is what is at stake here. Quinn could blossom into one of the best QB’s in the history of the NFL… COULD. So to could Alex Smith.. anything is possible, but Hill just doesn’t have the strong arm to stretch the D. And there is nothing he can do about it.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Neither did Montana
But running good routes like Rice and TO,they would catch 5 yds. passes and run 80 yds. This game is about ball control and the more time off the clock, the better. Oh it’s a beauty when the QB throws that 60 yarder, but that only happens about 6 to 8 time in a game. And most of that is near the end of the game when they’re behind. A gunslinger has got to have a strong OL to stand there and wait for the WR to run their pattern. That why we had 55 sacks.
That, and
the fact that JTO scrambled every down instead of stepping up into the pocket. True Montana didnt have a cannon for an arm, but BW also had the West Coast offense that no one knew how to stop. I mean I LOVE Joe Montana and consider him the best QB of all time, but let’s be honest, how many of his stats were inflated because no one could stop their offense? The 9ers aren’t running a WC offense anymore, and as much as I have faith in our receivers, they are not Rice and TO. I understand your argument and agree with you on certain points, I just think that within the past few years, you saw teams stacking up the box to stop Gore while daring the QB to gun it down field, and Hill can’t do that. JTO could, but he got dropped every other play. Smith, in ‘06 with Norv, could bomb it. He still can, if his shoulder holds up… but that’s a big IF.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 1:15 PM PDT reply actions
JTO just didn't look good
behind the line. he look uncomfortable and it showed. Besides Martzs play calling kinda suck. There was a hugh turnaround when MS and Hill took over. The team power Rating started going up one position every week after that and they both keep the Niners in the game. Hill is Rated better than Eli, Mcnabb, Cutler, Favre, Big Ben and others not worth mentioning. I not saying that he is any better than them but He’s a pretty good player and doesn’t get the credit he deserves for what he had.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
By all means
Hill played great last year, he wasn’t perfect, but he played his heart out and won over the players and fans, myself included.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
With a better Oline
and with Gore and the WR better than last year, I think we can prevent the defense from stacking the line. Hill is my Man until otherwise.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Some other considerations....
There’s a good article over at NationalFootballPost.com about how rare it is for the same regime to draft two 1st round QBs. Given that McCloughan was involved in the Alex Smith draft decision, making the trade for Quinn might be a way of repairing a mistake, if that is what he now considers Smith.
But you’re absolutely right about Hill – he just can’t make all the throws a #1 must be able to make in the NFL in order to keep defenses honest. I have no problem with him starting this year because he finds a way to win, but he’s not the long term solution. Nobody knows what we have in Smith anymore. I tend to believe he can’t do the job on grounds of slow reaction time, slow release, and unreliable accuracy, but he can make all the throws.
But my approach on QBs is like Bill Bellicek’s – develop mid-late round QB picks and skip the high-risk 1st round picks. Most people don’t agree, but it’s worked very well for the Pats (Brady, Cassel).
A look at possible QB - Draft Pick trades.
So Cleveland is shopping Quinn for draft picks? Who, besides the 9ers, are possible trade partners?
1. Lions – the Lions have the #1, #20, and #33 picks to work with. And they have an obvious need. Why would they consider this trade? So they can take a franchise LT with their first pick and still get a #1 QB prospect. They could offer to trade their #20 pick straight over, but if the 9ers or Jags were to offer their picks, the Lions would have to throw in their #33 pick to close the deal. This would be a smart move for the Lions.
2. Jaguars – Is David Garrard still their QBOF? If new GM Gene Smith is not convinced, he might want to make the trade instead of hoping Sanchez falls to #8. Or maybe they just stay pat and hope they can choose between Sanchez and B.J. Raji. I’d stay put.
3. Seahawks – there is speculation they will take their QBOF this year, when they have a high draft pick. But everything points to Hasselbeck sticking around another few years, so this is dubious. And a #4 is too much for Quinn.
4. Broncos – definitely a possible trade partner, but would DEN be willing to give up their #12 and #79 picks to equal the value of the 9ers’ #10? They could use their #18 and a combination of other picks. Depends completely upon what they think Quinn is worth, seems like, but they definitely have the ammo for a trade.
5. Jets – they need a QB, but don’t have much trade ammo with just a #17 and no 2nd rounder. I think they just hope Josh Freeman falls to them.
6. Bucs – Gruden lost his job, in part, because he blew too many drafts and couldn’t develop a franchise QB. Depending on what they think of Brady Quinn, they could be eager to make a trade like this. But at what price? Is Quinn worth more than a #19 pick?
7. 49ers – Hill is not a franchise QB because he can’t make all the throws, but he is a gamer, a guy who finds a way to win. So what is Alex Smith? Still a great prospect who hasn’t been groomed properly, or a prospect who just isn’t #1 material but a great backup? If McSing have decided he doesn’t have it, they’ll seriously consider something like this, especially if they are seriously looking at Sanchez as a replacement. I just don’t know. But if they are looking seriously for a #1, is Quinn worth a #10 pick? Decide for yourselves, but I’m still rolling with Belichek and saying the team should take the low-risk path of developing mid-late round QBs instead of a 1st round bet on a position with high bust potential.
NE has shown they know how to draft.
They got 6 picks within the first 100 players. Strong!!!
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
It's all Bellichek.
He’s just an extraordinary judge of talent. Brady was a 7th round pick. Cassel was a late pick. Same thing with LBs. He’s a genius with personnel. Is McCloughan in his class? I just don’t know. If Jay Moore turns into an ace pass rusher, McLo will get the credit. This draft might be his defining one.
Belichick
I don’t think he’s necessarily only a genius in terms of personnel. He’s an even greater genius when it comes to knowing how to utilize any personnel he has.
That's true, too.
I have no idea why I can’t spell Belichick the same way twice.
If I remember correctly...
… his name is “officially” spelled wrong on paper anyway. I don’t remember for sure, but I seem to remember reading in the book on him that his family name was originally spelled wrong, but the family just took it and ran with it. I could be completely wrong, but it’s not an uncommon occurrence.
Honestly there is NO way they get a #1 for Brady Quinn...
they should be talking about round 2 and 3 picks
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Matt Cassel was traded for a 2nd rounder...
And he actually played… Cutler was for #1 but he made the probowl (worthy or not)… Brady Quinn gets no snaps in a horrendously bad team… second round pick at the most.
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Braylon for a 2nd and 5th
and someone is gonna pay a 1st rounder for QUINN!? I think not
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 16, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Bellicheck kind of...
reminds me of myself… lol
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 1:47 PM PDT reply actions
McCloughan?
I truly have no faith in him. Sure he pick only one outstanding player in Willis, but after 4/5 years, I would expect more starting talent by now. For instants, I check the players on the OL and some of the backups are dropouts from other Teams. If they give a Coach 3/5 years to win than Mc has had his time. Maybe next year, they should replace him. I think that is our problem.
Huh?
For instants, I check the players on the OL and some of the backups are dropouts from other Teams.
What does that have to do with not formulating any starters? It’s okay that backup offensive linemen come from other teams. That’s how you keep costs low on players who don’t hit the field. Any of the 49ers starters along the line (minus the RT) can probably find a starting job elsewhere.
Practice squad player?
Bender was sign last from the Jets PS, Toledo from 06 Dolphins and Wragge was undrafted. I want Meat, not Fillers. Replacements are to fill that position with little dropoff, they cann’t. If it about cost, then they are the wrong way about it.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh really?
You must live in some kind of Utopian society, or at least a society that has Utopian football teams. The simple truth is this, in a league full of backups starting on teams’ rosters, it’s difficult to have any backups that are starter material. If you do, you don’t have them for very long.
Remember, it was Nolan + McClo that had the "trigger".
So I hesitate to lay too much blame on him because of that. He was a great personnel guy up in Seattle. But he’s definitely had some losers, and he knows he’s next in line for the boot if the team continues to lose. He can’t afford another 1st round bust and keep his job, which is why I don’t think he has any real interest in a QB at #10, either through the draft or a trade for Quinn.
And let it be so
What was his name with Baltimore, oh yea, Joe Thomas.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
What if..
He traded for Quinn and he saved the franchise? I guess my point is the argument could go either way. I have faith in Mc.. he drafted Gore, Willis, Rachael, Lawson (breakout year) Davis, Baas, Morgan, J. Hill. I mean sure not all are superstars but would you like to see any of them leave (Baas)? I think Mc has drafted some pretty good players. They can’t all be homeruns.
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Kwamme Harris, Jonas Jennings, A. Smith.
Both K. Harris and J. Jennings were huge busts that cost the team games and $$$. Jennings wasn’t drafted, but McClo made the FA signing. Both Smith and Harris were 1st round picks that didn’t work out. There was also a 1st round WR bust. No GM can survive more than just a few 1st round busts unless he is hitting home runs in the later rounds. I give McCloughan a B- so far and I’m certainly not hoping for his firing. I am just hoping he will do better without Nolan to compromise with.
WR and TE
Since 2002, there has been at least 14/15 picks in the draft. Battle, Morgan, J. HILL and VD are the only ones to stick. Sure, it a crap shoot but other than Battle, the rest are untested. I do have hope for this group. Zeiglar was undrafted and he could prove to be a Player.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the list
They are all good players and I like them all, but there more holes today than in Moochs era..
True that
I totally forgot to mention Joe Stahley too.. but I agree, back when Mooch was coach we were set up better, then again that led to the salery cap hell we indured for so long… pick your poison
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
My position is
McC has had time to put this team in order. It’s true Nolan had plently to do with it, but as manager, I have to take blame for my team poor performance. And I have, but I give Praise when they win. I’m looking at this from a Management position and I have to evaluate everyone. No one is left untouch.
Please
Apparently you don’t even have your facts straight. IF you’re blaming him from being the manager, you can only blame him for anything that’s gone wrong over the past year and a few months. If you recall, Nolan was McCloughan’s boss up until last offseason when Nolan was stripped of his GM duties.
How much could you get out of hill?
Hill has been good the past two years and has moxie but how many years left does he have? 1, maybe 2? I wouldn’t put my marbles in a guy like that for our future. And if we acquire Quinn, how bad could that be? He had some good starts last year, is healthier than Smith and doesn’t nearly have he shattered confidence of Smith either.
I’m skeptical about a first round pick straight up, but then again, I’m not really impressed with anybody overly in this draft (A Baylor player might go No. 1). So maybe saving the money of not having a first rounder might be good.
Hill
How much left works out pretty well though. They’ve got Hill signed for 2 seasons so it sets up perfectly for developing a middle round QB to eventually take over.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Hill
You just made me throw up in my mouth. The thought of witnessing two more seasons of mediocrity makes me sick. Oh and the Gore will be on his decline by then. So the problem goes back to RB. And then the quality D players leave via free agency because they are sick of losing and the 9ers wont pay them what they are worth. Mark my words you will see Willis leave the same way Peterson did. This is a vicious cycle of CRAP.
mediocrity
So if Hill is the starting QB you’re convinced we’ll be mediocre no matter what? Just want to clarify your opinion.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I only wish I knew how to transfer Stats.
Maybe you wouldn’t be so down on Hill.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
?
are you replying to me or silvy? I’m assuming him because my comment isn’t down on Hill.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes its Hill
If we want to bring stats into the equation then the 7 team that Hill beat had a combined record of 37-58. Now as a 49er fan I EXPECT them to win against that caliber of team that is mediocre. If you look his three wins there combined record is 29-21. only three teams and they ALMOST equal the win total of the 7 that Hill has beaten. So all in all he has not shown me anything that says he can win against quality teams.
excuse me
I meant the three teams he lost two had a combined record of 29-21
The 49ers record in 2008 with O’Sullivan starting was 2-6. In 2007, the team’s non-Hill record was 3-11.
Can anyone find the non-Hill opponents records too? Sorry, I’m too lazy to try looking it up myself…
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Haven’t the Niners taken a beating for overpaying Justin Smith and Nate Clements? And just HOW mediocre IS Hill’s career 64% completion percentage, 2:1 TD to INT ratio, 90.5 QB rating, and 7-3 career record (check it out here)?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Thanks,
Read the stats. I’ve been using the NFL Charts and they are really complete.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Complicated for me but hope you get it.
Click-NFL.com-Players-Stats,then players stats-complete list-players position-click #12. Hill-Situational stats. one more thing, make sure you’re in reg. season. Hopefully you got it . At least you’re close. This is way I like Hill. I’m a Stats. Guy!
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
You could post a link to them...
… like this.
Thanks
Who did you do that. I’m not that computer savey. But I’ll search to the heaven open.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Well...
… it doesn’t have to be as fancy as I did it.
You could just take the web address from the address bar at the top and paste it into the comment.
If you want to do it like I did, the simple way would be to type out the text you want to become the linked text (i.e. “this” in my example). You then highlight the text and click the chain-looking icon in the comment editor. It will pop up a small window where you can put in the web address (taken from the address bar at the top). Type or paste the address into the box and then click “Submit”.
Oh I understand.
I understand why a lot of fans like Hill. I like Hill. I don’t think he’s anywhere close to being a surefire bet to be the 49ers QB of the future, but he is definitely the team’s best option right now.
As much as I think Alex Smith has more to show, I wouldn’t do it at the expense of Hill unless Hill looks absolutely miserable during the preseason or Smith looks absolutely astonishing.
Basically, I like Hill for now for sure. Two years from now? I’ll know more at the end of this coming season, maybe.
So, If Smith his arm is done
only he and his the doc knows for sure.. Hill is a good for two years, after that, who knows! Next year may be a better group of of QB’S. Hate to give up on a choice when we can pick someone who can help this year.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I understand what you're saying...
… and I somewhat agree. At some point, though, you have to consider how big that immediate impact is in comparison to the potential future impact of a player.
Now I’m not saying the team NEEDS to go out and draft Sanchez (I don’t want Stafford). I’m just simply asking, is the immediate impact of a RT (who will be paid like a LT) so great that you can possibly pass on a QB that some feel could be a pretty good QB of the future?
That’s a question for the 49ers to ask themselves. I really don’t want the 49ers to take a QB this year, but I’m almost certain that I’d prefer them take Sanchez over Oher or A.Smith. Heck, I’d prefer Sanchez to Maybin.
I’m just really hoping Crabtree, Orakpo, or Brown fall to #10. I’m going to be like Dre on draft day, nervous as all heck through the first 10 picks or so.
I don’t blame him either, but the Niners HAVE taken a beating for paying him so much money. I just listened to Ralph and Tom talk with Jed York yesterday, and that was one of the things Ralph was all bent out of shape over.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Question...
Did he recognize the fact that a huge chunk of the back end of that contract is not guaranteed? Most people ignore that very important fact.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly.
If I recall correctly, Clements ZOMG $80M deal may actually only be worth a little over $65M.
I thought it was closer to like $28mil guaranteed. And yes, Ralph ignored that little tidbit because he can’t make his point by getting his facts straight.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I don't remember the...
… exact guarantees. But I seem to remember that the last year or two of his contract is basically voidable and the 49ers aren’t on the hook for all the salary he would have made during that time.
Basically, if you look at the actual dollar figures the Niners are on the hook for, there’s a lot less reason to get all up in arms.
Barbieri is a boob.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
But it's worth repeating.
Just on the off chance the r-tard visits this site.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
For those who...
… are wondering, r-tard stands for “ralph-tard”, meaning someone who’s understanding is hindered by believing Ralph.
Also
The way i look at it is if we want big name free agents to come to the 49ers, it’s going to cost a bit more then say.. the Pats. I think Justin Smith played brilliantly last year and Clements has been rock solid ever since he signed. Sure he isn’t coming up with 10 INT’s a year.. but who is?
by Smithisstilltheanswer on Apr 14, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Ralph
is bent.
Out of shape about a number of things. I have found his opinions lately, especially about the Niners, to be uninformed and unusable.
by Bob In Beaverton on Apr 14, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Willis will be a niner for life
There is no way the niners would let such a talent leave… Peterson was a beast but Willis has proved he should be in a niners’ uniform for his entire career. Plus Singletary will make him better which is sorta scary, I expect the D to be intact for a long time (- a cornerback or OLB here or there).
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
injury
He was recovering from that nasty achilles tendon injury and my guess is that the 49ers did not want to give him a big contract. Could be wrong, but I think it makes some sense.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Peterson’s departure was equal parts injury-related as well as money related. The Donahue group left the 49ers with VERY little money to retain any players, let alone players that they wanted to keep.
If I’m not mistaken, I’ve seen Nolan or McCloughan on record somewhere regretting they had to let him go at the time, but there was really no financial way they could keep him. Not with all the other teams competing for his services.
Totally agree with you
about Willis and the Defense. A little help at OLB, DB and good Coaching can improve the “D”. Wasn’t that bad last year. With a liitle more training,….
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
never say never
I compare him to Junior Seau, with his impact and fan love and out of this world skills…
but late in his career Seau switched teams.. it can happen
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Anyone think we're doing this
as a bluff for the draft?
Get Teams thinking we’re going to draft a QB, then if Sanchez falls to us, maybe someone calls in with an offer the 49ers can’t refuse?
http://www.49ersboard.blogspot.com
Maybe
But when you play with fire, it could turn around and burn you. Leave the picks alone unless it’s a really fantanstic deal.
by LASVEGASNINER on Apr 14, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
If Fooch's...
… update on the front page is accurate, that’s surely a funny way to bluff you’re dying to get a QB. If it is true, I’m relieved they aren’t interested in Quinn, especially not for the #10 pick.
To even be linked with the Browns
gives our pick more value if Sanchez is to fall to us.
http://www.49ersboard.blogspot.com
It would be nice
Quinn is young and teachable. I’d do it for the #1 pick only. Nothing more.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
2nd rounder
Other than death and taxes, only 4 things in this world are indisputable:
Brandon Roy is the BEST player in the NBA in the clutch.
Montana to Rice were the greatest to ever play the game.
The Four Horsemen of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery were unstoppable.
No one protects the pipes like Luongo.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 14, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I can't believe this is even being discussed
There are at least 3 teams that have picks before us. Frankly with Quinn being a number 20 in the first and unproven in my opinion, there’s no way we’d give up that pick for him. Spoiled, Spoiled, Spoiled, are the fans from San Fran Joe and Steve has us gripping our seats to find the guy. Let’s give this a rest. We really aren’t in a position to draft a QB at 1 nor trade it away for anything but multiple picks!!!
LG
Add to the D
Hill proved that he can somewhat manage a “run” mentality team. Niners should bolster up the D to help out the O. Anyone remember Baltimore’s D with Trent Dilfer at QB? D built around a young stud LB in Lewis #52…..remind you of anyone? Is Hill seriously not as adaquate as Dilfer was for Baltimore when they made their run?
As Per Maiocco's...
140 keystrokes is too many for this subject: Niners source says team, not surprisingly, has no interest in making deal for Brady Quinn.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Apr 14, 2009 7:51 PM PDT reply actions
Mangini is cleaning house in Cleveland.
Anyone see a pattern here:
1. TE K. Winslow traded to Bucs for draft picks.
2. WR B. Edwards on trading block for draft picks.
3. QB Brady Quinn on trading block for draft picks.
Mangini is obviously clearing out the players he considers dead wood in exchange for draft picks this year. My guess is that the deal is with either the Jets or the Bucs, who have mid-round picks in the 1st. That’s the most Quinn could be worth, imho. Mangini is trying to something near “Cutler money”, which was two 1st rounders and a third this year.
so lets see
Winslow for a 2nd and 5th
Braylon for a 2nd and 5th
both of whom were actual players, got on the field and produced
and he thinks he is gonna get more than a 2nd or 3rd rounder for Quinn who hasnt played?
kidding himself
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 16, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Quinn to the Jets
With Rex Ryan taking over the reigns, the Jets will become known as a defensive team. Pounding the ball with the running game and the majority of passes being short (Dump offs to Leon Washington). This is why I think the Jets are as good or a fit for Brady Quinn as the Niners are. However, being a die-hard Niners, and Notre Dame fan, I’d love to give Quinn a shot with us. He’s on the verge of being a playmaking QB that can lead a team to the playoffs with the right weapons. The only thing missing from our roster that will get us to the playoffs is a QB who can make plays. Right now, we don’t have one.
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