Movin’ on up in the 2010 Draft: How Low can the 49ers Go?
AUTHOR' S NOTE: When I discuss QBs in this article, it's just for the sake of argument. What I'm mainly trying to show here is what picks the 49ers will be most able to acquire by packaging their two #1's in 2010 if they choose to do so. Don't get hung up on the QB thing. This stuff can be applied to trading up for any player, not just a QB.
As we all know by now, the 49ers traded their 2nd- and 4th-round picks this past weekend for the Panthers'1st-round pick in next year's draft. The reaction on Niners Nation has definitely been mixed. However, I don't want to get into that argument here. Rather, I'm going to suspend disbelief, and accept Scot McCloughan's reasons for making the deal. One of these reasons is of particular interest to me, and can be found in McCloughan's own words:
As everybody is well aware, ones are huge, especially, if we want to do anything with that pick anytime here out to next year, which of course, going into next draft with two #1 picks.
Grammatical errors aside, one "anything" that McCloughan is likely to want to do with those two #1 picks next year is to package them for a higher (lower?) #1. For the sake of argument, let's assume that the reason to make such a deal is because the 2010 QB draft class looks to be a good one. Below are the top 5 (or 6) QBs in next year's draft according to various "draft gurus" (they're in alphabetical, not rank, order; a * indicates a 2009 junior):
|
Scout |
Bleacher Report |
NFL Draft Scout |
Kiper |
|
Sam Bradford* |
Sam Bradford* |
Sam Bradford* |
Sam Bradford* |
|
Jimmy Clausen* |
Dan LeFevour |
Dan LeFevour |
Dan LeFevour |
|
Dan LeFevour |
Colt McCoy |
Colt McCoy |
Colt McCoy |
|
Colt McCoy |
Zac Robinson |
Zac Robinson |
Tony Pike |
|
Jevan Snead* |
Jevan Snead* |
Jevan Snead* |
Tim Tebow |
|
Tim Tebow |
|
Tim Tebow |
|
As of right now, it would appear that Bradford and McCoy are the most likely QBs to be selected in the early part of Round 1. This is obviously debatable, so let me repeat that I'm just in "for the sake of argument" mode here. Therefore, if we assume that a good part of the 49ers' increased flexibility is to move up in 2010 for either Bradford or McCoy, the question becomes, "How low (high?) can they go?" Furthermore, "What are the odds that the 49ers can go as low (high?) as possible?"
On Saturday, I briefly addressed these questions in the comments section of Fooch's post detailing the trade. Today, I'm going to go into it much more thoroughly from a statistical probability perspective. Basically, I'm going to provide and discuss the following information:
- The pick that an NFL team is most likely to have given its record
- For each combination of SF and CAR team records in 2009, the lowest (highest?) possible 2010 pick the 49ers can acquire if they choose to package their two #1s
- The odds against SF being able to acquire any single 2010 pick by packaging their two #1s
- The odds against SF being able to obtain a top 2 or top 5 pick by packaging their two #1s
- The odds against SF being able to obtain any single, top 2, or top 5 pick given reasonable assumptions about SF's and CAR's 2009 records
After the jump, I'll drop some probability knowledge...
TEAM RECORDS AND DRAFT POSITIONS
The goal here is to attach a draft pick probability to each combination of SF and CAR win-loss records. To do that, we first need to figure out the draft position that any NFL team can expect to have given their record during the previous season. For the sake of your brain, I'm not going to go into any detail here. Just believe me when I tell you that, based on the 2004-2008 seasons and 2005-2009 drafts, here are the expected draft positions associated with every possible NFL win-loss record (excluding ties):
|
Record |
Expected Pick |
|
0-16 |
1 |
|
1-15 |
1 |
|
2-14 |
1 |
|
3-13 |
2 |
|
4-12 |
4 |
|
5-11 |
7 |
|
6-10 |
10 |
|
7-9 |
12 |
|
8-8 |
16 |
|
9-7 |
21 |
|
10-6 |
24 |
|
11-5 |
26 |
|
12-4 |
29 |
|
13-3 |
30 |
|
14-2 |
30 |
|
15-1 |
30 |
|
16-0 |
31 |
Based on this table, if the 49ers go 10-6 this upcoming season, for example, they can expect to have the 24th pick in the 2010 draft. Obviously, because not all picks are represented in the table (e.g., there's no #13 in the picks column), there's some variability around the expected pick. However, #24 is the pick the Niners are most likely to have given the NFL's team records and associated draft positions over the past 5 seasons.
DRAFT POSITIONS AND TRADE VALUE
In a must-read post a couple of weeks ago, briandean talked about the draft pick value chart that NFL GMs adhere to - with varying strictness - when talking turkey about trading picks. This chart enables us to attach a value to each expected pick in the above table. For example, the 24th pick in the draft is worth 740 points according to the chart. Therefore, if the 49ers go 10-6 in 2009, then they'll have 740 points to work with should they choose to deal the pick.
Of course, the assumption here is that the 49ers won't just deal their pick to move up in 2010. Rather, they're likely to trade their pick and the Panthers' pick in exchange for a lower (higher?) pick. So, for example, if SF goes 10-6 and CAR goes 9-7, then the Niners would likely use their 740 points plus the Panthers' 800 points to move up in the draft. And what pick would SF be able to trade for using those 1540 draft pick points? Well, according to the chart, the #7 pick is worth 1500 points, so, if we assume a 40-point surcharge for moving up, then packaging their 21st and 24th picks in the 2010 draft would get the 49ers the 7th pick overall.
This kind of "what if" exercise can be done for any combination of SF and CAR records in 2009. In fact, it can be done for any combination of records for any two teams in any season. Luckily for you, I've already done all the heavy lifting. Below is a chart I created that shows the lowest (highest?) possible pick SF can acquire given (a) the draft picks associated with SF's and CAR's 2009 records, (b) the draft pick values associated with those draft picks, and (c) the assumption that SF will package both picks in a deal to move up in the 2010 draft:

To read this chart, just pick out win totals for SF and CAR, and then look at the number in the box where the two win totals intersect. For example, 2 wins for SF and 14 wins for CAR corresponds to the #1 overall pick being the lowest (highest?) possible pick that the 49ers can acquire were they to do a package deal.
Before going into the odds of any specific pick, let me just point out a couple of interesting things about the information displayed in this chart. First, you'll (hopefully) recall that SF went 7-9 last year and CAR went 12-4. If we look at the chart entry associated with 7 SF wins and 12 CAR wins, we find that a mere repeat of 2008 would allow the 49ers to trade up to the #4 pick. The second interesting thing about this chart is that the worst pick the 49ers can possibly get in a package deal is #12. In other words, not even simultaneous perfect seasons by SF and CAR can prevent the Niners from trading into the top 12 if they choose to do a package deal. OK, let me make the point even clearer. Simply by having two #1s, the 49ers are guaranteed the possibility of a top-12 pick regardless of their 2009 record. Now that's flexibility.
SPECIFIC ODDS COURTESY OF DUMB LUCK
Based on the above chart, you can go through any combination of SF and CAR wins, and see what pick the 49ers can acquire in a package deal. Feel free to do so in your spare time (or on bathroom breaks). For those of us with a life - I'm certainly not included in that - our resident mock draft guru, Dumb Luck, has summarized below the likelihood and odds against the Niners being able to acquire a specific 1st-round pick in 2010 via a package deal:
|
Dumb Luck's Crib Sheet |
||
|
Pick |
Likelihood |
Odds Against |
|
1 |
44.29% |
1.26 to 1 |
|
4 |
15.57% |
5.42 to 1 |
|
3 |
10.03% |
8.97 to 1 |
|
12 |
6.23% |
15.06 to 1 |
|
8 |
4.84% |
19.64 to 1 |
|
10 |
4.15% |
23.08 to 1 |
|
6 |
3.81% |
25.27 to 1 |
|
2 |
3.11% |
31.11 to 1 |
|
9 |
2.77% |
35.13 to 1 |
|
11 |
2.42% |
40.29 to 1 |
|
5 |
1.38% |
71.25 to 1 |
|
7 |
1.38% |
71.25 to 1 |
|
Top 2 |
47.40% |
1.11 to 1 |
|
Top 5 |
74.39% |
0.34 to 1 |
|
Picks 6-12 |
25.61% |
2.91 to 1 |
Before I discuss this table, I should note that its contents aren't magical at all. It's actually pretty simple to figure this stuff out for yourself. For instance, 128 of the 289 boxes in the chart have a 1 in it. Therefore, given all possible combinations of SF and CAR records, the likelihood that the 49ers can get the #1 pick in a package deal is 128/289 or .4429, which is the same thing as 44.29% To translate likelihood into odds against, you just subtract the likelihood from 1, and then divide by the likelihood. In this example, that would be 1 minus .4429, which equals .5571, divided by .4429. That .5571/.4429 is what gets you the 1.26 to 1 that's shown in the table for the #1 pick. Now, onto the discussion...
The first obvious thing that jumps out is that, no matter what happens to SF and CAR in 2009, it's almost even money that the 49ers will be able to trade for the #1 overall pick in a package deal. In other words, flipping a coin right now would basically be just as accurate as actually, you know, playing out the 2009 season in terms of predicting whether or not SF can get the #1 pick in a package deal. The second interesting bit of information in the table is that the Niners have a slightly better shot of getting a top-2 pick in the 2010 draft, which guarantees them Bradford or McCoy if those two 2 QBs - for the sake of argument - are projected as the top 2 picks next year. Finally, notice that SF has almost a 75% chance of moving into the top 5 via a package deal. When translated into odds, the 0.34 associated with a top 5 pick means that the odds are actually 3 to 1 in favor of the Niners.
SPECIFIC ODDS COURTESY OF BONZO THE IDIOT MONKEY
For those who weren't around this weekend, Bonzo the Idiot Monkey is Cold Hard Football Facts' resident mock draft guru. Being a close relative to humans, he's able to engage in some low-level reasoning. For instance, based on the information given to him by his handlers, Bonzo was able to deduce that Matt Stafford would be selected by the Lions. In contrast, Dumb Luck got that pick wrong because, being a mere calculator, he wasn't equipped to incorporate that kind of information into his prognostications.
Why am I bringing up Bonzo? Well, it's because Dumb Luck's table omits a couple of basic assumptions that only a reasoning creature could use to his/her advantage:
- We already learned from my earlier table that, if a team goes 4-12 or worse, then their expected pick is already in the top 5. Therefore, if either SF or CAR wins fewer than 5 games in 2009, the Niners won't need to package their two 1st-round picks to move into the top 5. They'll already be there.
- The '07 Patriots and '04 Steelers aside, no teams have gone 16-0 or 15-1 in the past 5 seasons. CAR did win 12 games last season. However, just as the old NFL adage says that "it's easier to go from 6 wins to 8 than it is to go from 8 wins to 10," the same can be said of going from 12 wins to 15 or 16. Indeed, since the NFL schedule increased to 16 games, only 4 teams have gone 15-1 (including the 49ers in 1984), and only 1 has gone 16-0 (David Tyree anyone?). Therefore, it's unbelievably unlikely that CAR or SF - especially SF - will win 15 or more games in 2009.
So, being the low-level logician that he is, Bonzo's table is a little bit different from Dumb Luck's because he focused only on summarizing the possible picks associated with reasonable expectations about SF's and CAR's records in 2009. Specifically, here's Bonzo's table, which only looks at the bold, inset 5-to-14-wins box of the chart I presented earlier:
|
Bonzo's Crib Sheet |
||
|
Pick |
Likelihood |
Odds Against |
|
4 |
33.00% |
2.03 to 1 |
|
3 |
15.00% |
5.67 to 1 |
|
8 |
10.00% |
9.00 to 1 |
|
6 |
7.00% |
13.29 to 1 |
|
9 |
6.00% |
15.67 to 1 |
|
10 |
6.00% |
15.67 to 1 |
|
2 |
5.00% |
19.00 to 1 |
|
11 |
5.00% |
19.00 to 1 |
|
5 |
4.00% |
24.00 to 1 |
|
7 |
4.00% |
24.00 to 1 |
|
12 |
4.00% |
24.00 to 1 |
|
1 |
1.00% |
99.00 to 1 |
|
Top 2 |
6.00% |
15.67 to 1 |
|
Top 5 |
58.00% |
0.72 to 1 |
|
Picks 6-12 |
42.00% |
1.38 to 1 |
Comparing Bonzo's table to Dumb Luck's, we can see how having reasonable expectations about SF's and CAR's records affects the likelihood that the Niners can acquire a given 2010 1st-round pick in a package deal. First, the most likely obtainable pick changed from #1 to #4. Furthermore, the Niners went from having an even shot at the #1 pick in Dumb Luck's table, to having a 99-to-1 shot in Bonzo's table, which makes the #1 pick now the least likely of the top 12. This no doubt is due to the fact that almost all record combinations in which SF can get the #1 pick are associated with either SF or CAR already having a pick in the top 5. Second, if as before we assume for the sake of argument that Bradford and McCoy are going to be the top 2 picks in the 2010 draft, then Bonzo (about 16 to 1) is far more pessimistic than Dumb Luck (about even money) with respect to the 49ers getting either QB by virtue of a package deal. Finally, although SF still has a likelier-than-not chance of trading into the top 5, the odds against their ability to do so doubled given Bonzo's reasoning.
BUYER BEWARE
Before wrapping things up, I'd just like to caution those of you out there who might want to consult SF's and CAR's strengths of schedule (SOS) in 2009 when experimenting with possible record combinations. In other words, I would advise against paying any attention to the fact that, based on their opponents' 2008 records, SF has the 7th-easiest 2009 schedule, while CAR has the 2nd-most difficult. Here's why: A team's SOS before the season, which is based on its opponents' previous-season records, has no practical relationship with its actual SOS or its actual win-loss record once the season has played out. In other words, just because the Panthers have the 2nd-most difficult 2009 schedule as of right now, don't think for even one second that (a) their schedule is actually going to be that tough, if tough at all, or (b) their 2009 record is actually going to be any worse than if they had the easiest before-the-season SOS. Basically, it turns out that we can't predict anything about CAR's 2009 SOS or how many games they're going to win in 2009 based on what their 2009 opponents did in 2008.
Just in case you don't believe me, or you don't want to just trust me on this, here is a table that shows the correlations between before-the-season SOS, actual SOS, and actual win-loss record for each of the past 5 seasons:
|
Year |
Pre-SOS vs. Actual SOS |
Pre-SOS vs. Actual W-L |
Actual SOS vs. Actual W-L |
|
2004 |
0.10 |
-0.06 |
-0.36* |
|
2005 |
0.13 |
0.05 |
-0.66** |
|
2006 |
0.19 |
-0.15 |
-0.59** |
|
2007 |
0.16 |
0.15 |
-0.34 |
|
2008 |
0.41* |
0.08 |
-0.56** |
|
Average |
0.20 |
0.01 |
-0.50 |
For the non-stat folks out there, an asterisk (*) in the table means there's a 95% likelihood that the given relationship is real (i.e., it's not a statistical mirage), while two asterisks (**) means there's a 99% likelihood. Also, see here for my previous description of what the direction (+ or -) and value of a correlation mean. If these last two sentences made your brain explode, just look for asterisks and numbers farther away from 0 (provided you can still read despite brain detonation).
As the table shows, 2008 was the only season (of the last 5) in which a team's actual SOS was related at all to its before-the-season SOS. Of course, even this 2008 relationship is pretty useless in terms of prognostication when you consider the fact that a team's before-the-season SOS in 2008 was totally unrelated to how many games it actually won. Furthermore, all those asterisks and bigger numbers in the right-most column, which suggest a consistent statistical relationship between actual SOS and actual win-loss record, are pretty useless as well because we have to wait until after the season to calculate them. In other words, we can't use actual SOS to predict a team's record for the upcoming season because we can't find out their actual SOS until after the season.
Finally, some clever NN readers out there might think it's necessary to adjust these correlations for each team's record in the previous season because (a) the NFL schedule is created, in part, based on where each team finished in the standings; and (b) winning teams one year are more likely to be winning teams the next year. Well, first off, the latter isn't actually the case: The correlation between team wins from one year to the next is not statistically significant. More importantly, though, I tested out this adjustment, and it didn't change the above table in any meaningful way.
BOTTOM LINE
Based on everything that I've said in this article, here's what I think is most important to remember between now and the 2010 draft vis-à-vis the Niners packaging their two 1st-round picks:
- Given all possible combinations of SF and CAR wins during the 2009 season, it's even money that the 49ers will be able to move on up to the #1 pick.
- Given all possible combinations of SF and CAR wins during the 2009 season, it's even money that the 49ers will be able to move on up to #1 or #2. Also, the odds are 3-to-1 in favor of the 49ers being able to trade into the top 5.
- Assuming that both SF and CAR win between 5 and 14 games during the 2009 season, the most likely pick the 49ers will be able to move on up to is #4.
- Assuming that both SF and CAR win between 5 and 14 games during the 2009 season, the odds are 94-to-1 against the 49ers being able to move on up to #1 or #2. Also, the odds are 3-to-2 in favor of the 49ers being able to trade into the top 5.
- Don't pay any attention to before-the-season SOS when trying to predict the positions of SF's two 1st-round picks.
0 recs |
76 comments
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Comments
This is way over analyzing the situation IMO
Who knows if their will actually be an NFL draft next year, with current negotiations between the NFLPA and Owners not being 100% understanding. Why the Niners might be able to trade one of these 1st round picks and a 3rd, 4th or 5th pick even to get a quarterback RIGHT NOW in the league that is worth a damn!
by danknerd49 on Apr 28, 2009 8:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i kind of went in with the assumption...
that there would be a 2010 draft. i’m also assuming that the niners traded for an extra 2010 first rounder assuming that there would be a 2010 draft.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Nicely done.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Apr 28, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems Like...
This all depends on how Nate Davis looks to them during practices this year. Doubtful he’ll be seeing anything besides the pine pony all year, but if he can prove he’s worth a damn in practice they might just hold off on drafting another QB next year. I mean why waste that big arm of his?
by Brodieman on Apr 28, 2009 8:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
…the QB thing is just for the sake of argument because who knows what players are actually going to be in the top 5 next year. this was more about what having 2 #1’s next year does for them in terms of trading up for any player.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(2) 1st Round 2010 Picks
It’s all about flexibility. It’s funny, a lot of people want to pat the Patriots on the back for trading down and acquiring picks but when the Niners make a similar fashioned move it’s a bad decision.
My knee-jerk reaction was that this meant the Niners would trade up for a QB but Davis may change that. I think they’d be better off trading for the last of the 3 of Bradford, McCoy or LeFevour which means that wouldn’t have to trade far, or at all.
So the Niners could sit tight and draft two good talents or they could trade back again and keep acquiring picks.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Apr 28, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
even
without trading up, you have much more flexibility. As in keeping one pick and trading the other to a team wanting to move up – say for a 3rd in the current draft and a 1st in the following year. or a 2nd and 4th or 5th in the current draft. Its a nice chip to have. just play it right.
by save10 on Apr 28, 2009 8:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It would likely be foolish
To trade two #1’s to move up and grab a QB in next year’s draft. As far as I’m concerned, there are only two QB’s worth taking in the top 10 of next year’s draft and those are Bradford and McCoy. There’s even a good argument for Tim Tebow being the Roethlisberger of this year’s class and despite popular belief he DOES have 1st round ability as a QB, but just needs to refine his mechanics and footwork. I’d gladly take either of Bradford or McCoy if the 49ers didn’t need to trade much (1st and 3rd), but there is no reason to dish out both 1st rounders unless we somehow end up with a pick in the bottom of the 1st round.
Let’s not be mistaken about the kind of offense (and defense) that these Big XII spread teams are playing with/against. Eli Manning and Philip Rivers ran NFL-style offenses in college, so did Stafford and Sanchez….. next year’s QB’s don’t. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jevan Snead join the 1st round discussion at QB either.
There is quality top-tier talent in next year’s draft from picks 1-15 at almost every position of need and if the 49ers are lucky enough to have two picks in that range, then this team could have a quantum leap in talent. Also, I know it’s early to really judge next year’s draft but I’m seeing far less depth in next year’s draft after that top-tier. Of course, there are always a handful of breakout players that vault into the 1st round, so it will be exciting to see who those players are.
If you had to ask me my realistic dream scenario for next year (aside from the 49ers winning the Super Bowl), it would be:
1. 49ers get a top 10 pick, Panthers give a top 20 pick
2. 49ers are able to make a Jets-like trade (1st, 2nd, and players for higher 1st rounder)
3. 49ers are able to address a major need at NT/FS with their top 1st round pick and trade up for the 2nd/3rd QB on the board.
If we walk away from two drafts with nothing to show but Crabtree and a QB, then you have to ask yourself if the guys in charge know what they are doing. Football games are still won and lost in the trenches and defense still wins championships.
Just looking at teams who are likely to be in the rookie QB market next year:
1. Redskins – Campbell’s contract is up and Snyder already isn’t too thrilled with him.
2. Bills – Serious doubts about Trent Edwards being “the guy”.
3. Broncos – No Cutler, obvious need.
4. Jaguars – I think Garrard will prove his worth, but you never know.
5. Vikings – Jackson and Rosenfels…. yea right.. they need a QB.
6. Seahawks – Hasselbeck is getting old and they will probably have 2 better 1st rounders than the Niners.
7. Rams – Bulger is declining fast.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 28, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
also...
…i just put an author’s note up clarifying that the scenarioes in the chart can be used to move up for any player, not just QB. so far, people seem to be focusing (understandably) on the QB thing.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understood, but still...
You don’t give up two 1st rounders in any draft for a position other than QB.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 28, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not true...
WAS traded the 12th and 24th picks to SF in 2000 for the #3 pick…they took their decade-long LT starter Chris Samuels
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
another one...
not quite, but close…
CLE traded it’s #7 and #37 to DET for #6 in 2004…CLE took TE kellen winslow, jr.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
another...
NYJ traded the 13th and 22nd picks to CHI in 2003 for the #4 pick…they took DT dewayne robertson
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and another in 2003...
NO traded #17 and #18 to ARI for #6…NO took DT johnathan sullivan
incidentally, ARI got calvin pace, bryant johnson, and anquan boldin (#54) out of that deal
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
another almost...
TB traded #13 and #27 to NYJ in 2000 for keyshawn johnson
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
another almost...
CIN traded #5 and #36 to CAR in 1995 for #1…CIN took RB ki-jana carter
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so in summary...
in the salary cap era, no team has ever traded two #1s to move up in the 1st round to take a QB…hey, maybe the 49ers can be the first! ;-)
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the research
Seems I was wrong… and seems that every one of those teams got robbed. That’s a group I don’t want to see the 49ers joining.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 28, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no prob...
…and i agree with you by the way. i’m much more of a “move down” proponent. it seems like moving up tends to indicate a team “falling in love with a player” rather than sticking to a value-based drafting strategy…also, in today’s NFL, i don’t think a team can ever have enough 1st-round talent on their roster. so 2 is better than 1.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
another thing to consider
The 49ers have traded out of the 2nd round in 3 of the last 4 drafts and had back-to-back years (2006, 2007) with two 1st round picks. If we judge them on past tendencies, then we’ll likely see two 1st rounders next year instead of trading up and I’m sure the 2nd rounder will be in play for moving up in a trade.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 28, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
my ideal situation next year...
…is that they have something like the 21st and 26th picks…they take a player at 21, and then trade 26 to move down into the top of the 2nd round and get and extra 3rd-rounder to boot. then they’ll have something like 5 of the top 85 picks in a draft that’s supposed to be pretty deep in terms of day 1 talent. of course, this whole “2010 draft class is better than 2009 draft class” thing is one reason why they chose to exchange a #2 in 2009 for a #1 in 2010. basically, it’s better to take a late 1st-round pick with a mid-to-late 1st-round grade in 2010 than it was to take an early 2nd-round pick with a late-2nd to early-3rd grade in 2009.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"deep in day 1 talent"
I don’t know where everyone is getting that idea. I’ve looked through the draft eligibles in next year’s class… it’s pretty shallow. There are about 15 guys next year who would be worthy of a top 5-10 pick in any draft year and then a lot of question marks. Once you get beyond looking at the top 20-30 players then I don’t consider any of those prospects better than this year’s 2nd round prospects. This year was one of the deeper drafts I can remember in terms of 2nd/3rd/4th round talent. When the media calls a draft “good/bad”, they always mean elite talent at premium positions. Once the QB’s returned to school, suddenly next year’s class was “deep”…. typical media frenzy.
Obviously some players will step into starting roles and breakout, but it will take a lot of underclassmen declaring for next year to be considered a deep draft class.
Next year is clearly the year to trade up. For that alone, I somewhat understand the trade for next year’s #1.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 28, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, i'm relying on potentially unreliable pundits...
…for that “deep in day 1 talent” statement.
i said “day 1” for a reason. namely, we have very little clue right now about what round 1 is going to look like next year.
so i think i’d be very leary of trying to figure anything out about next year right now. courtesy of john morgan of field gulls, here’s a google news search of 2009 mock drafts that were done in 2008. they’re not even close to what really happened. point is, we’re clueless right now about the 1st round.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
id rather have...
taylor mays or terrance cody…
also i think tebow would be good value in the 2nd round
by Drewage81 on Apr 28, 2009 8:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Mays
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
by bayboy on Apr 28, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
one thing
next year, the draft picks will be based on order of finish. so if Carolina goes 10-6 and misses the playoffs, we’d get the 20th pick regardless of record.
the win-loss record will only be for tie breakers amongst teams missing the playoffs.
by Andrew Davidson on Apr 28, 2009 9:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
sorry
As long as Carolina misses the playoffs we’ll have a top 20 selection. If they do make the playoffs, it can go as high as 32 obviously.
I can see the Falcons and Saints going 11-5 apiece and blocking the Panthers from getting to the playoffs. Assuming the wild card team finishes at atleast 10-6. If the Panthers go 10-6 it will be hard for them to miss the playoffs, but atleast we know that the draft pick will be based more in relevance to how long a team’s season goes (deep into the playoffs wise). Now, a team finishing 9-7 that wins its division, isn’t going to get a lower pick than a team that goes 11-5 and misses the playoffs.
by Andrew Davidson on Apr 28, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
right...
…there is some aspect of these anomalies in the analysis that i did…for example, 9-7 ARI this past season was included at 31…so the expected pick of a 9-7 record that i put in that table (21st) is a shade later than if ARI hadn’t made the SB…on the flip side, 11-5 NE missing the playoffs is also in the analysis, so the good record, better pick scenario is incorporated to at least some degree as well.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
QB of the Future
By obtaining these picks it pretty much guarantees that if Hill or Smith doesn’t work out this year then we will be able to obtain a QB next year. This can be seen by the fact that if either doesn’t work out that most likely we will not have won too many games. Say we go 8-8 it doesn’t matter what Carolina does the worst we would pick is 6th.
Overall I like the trade we made. I feel good going into this season knowing that either we will find a starter in Hill or Smith or we will know they aren’t starters and will be positioned well to find our future QB either in the draft or by trading these picks.
by dgwyn on Apr 28, 2009 10:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the trade, for if no other reason than it means that the front office do have some of plan
for next year.
There is one thing worth considering, when talking about trading up, and that’s this – in order to trade, you’ve got to have a partner to do it with. So, if the teams in the top five are the same ones that need a QB (and let’s be fair, that’s not unlikely), then there’s a problem. Obviously one that could be solved by making an offer that’s over and above the odds, but still – it’s not cut and dried, even if they have enough draft points to say that they can move on paper.
I guess that’s what makes it interesting, huh.
It's never too soon to jump to conclusions
by alea iacta est on Apr 28, 2009 10:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, that's a good point...
…and one i was hoping would be brought up by someone. i think that the beauty of having two #1s is that they’re guaranteed the ability to move into the top 12 if they chose to do a package deal. the top 5 teams might need a QB, but the top 12 definitely won’t. also, even if the top 5 teams all need QBs, the niners can package their #1s to move up for the best player at a position other than QB. finally, as has been said here, the niners can just as easily trade one of their #1s to move down and acquire even more picks. and of course, they could just stand pat and add two 1st-round talents to the roster.
the way i’d look at it is through the following hypothetical. let’s say SF goes 10-6 next season and CAR goes 11-5. that would most likely give the 49ers the 24th and 26th picks in the draft. according to the chart, the best pick the 49ers can trade for in a package deal is #8. now, what if a crabtree-esque situation occurs next year, wherein the no-doubt best 3-4 OLB or QB or OT or NT in the draft is available at 8, and the team at 8 doesn’t have a need at that position. in this hypothetical, the niners could trade up to 8 and take the future all-pro talent. this is an option the 49ers couldn’t have unless they had two #1s. this flexibility also allows them to trade up to 9, 10, 11, or whatever pick they think the no-doubt stud is going to fall to.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'd imagine that if the 49ers *do* go 10-6
the mindset will be different. A lot of things will have had to have come off this year, so we might well be looking at their needs in a slightly different way. I’m sure the team would be thinking that they have a team that’s superbowl capable within the next couple of years.
Also, you’d assume that they got some fairly competent quarterbacking from someone on the roster, during that time. This being the case, having a couple of later first round picks might well be exactly what the team needs…
It's never too soon to jump to conclusions
by alea iacta est on Apr 28, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
…to go 10-6, they have to have continued QB competence out of hill, and the DEF has to continue it’s stretch-run 2008 progression. finally settling on hill as the starter, and finally settling on 3-4 as the defense, has gone a long way towards both of those things. if mckillop ends up being the heir-apparent to spikes at ted LB, then really, the 49ers’ needs next year will be secondary depth (because harris and lewis are getting old), pass rush specialist (because you can never have too many of them), RT depth (because smith will be gettin old), and QB of the future (which might already be on the roster in davis). i think in this scenario, they should keep the picks and take two 1st-round talents at any position on the field except RB, WR, and 3-4 ILB.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
to go 10-6, they have to have continued QB competence out of hill,
or dare I say, possibly Alex Smith
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on Apr 28, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, in smith's case...
the sentence would change to…
to go 10-6, they have to have either continued QB competence out of hill or newfound QB competence out of smith
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I knew you would make it sound better then me haha
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on Apr 28, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha, yeah this is why I left it vague, by saying
some fairly competent quarterbacking from someone on the roster, during that time
hell, I’m not expecting miracles…
It's never too soon to jump to conclusions
by alea iacta est on Apr 28, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
competent QB
We’ve had that for years from Shaun Hill. It’s about time he got his chance to give us that over a full season.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 28, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not sayin I don't trust in Hill
I do and I think he deserves a shot to helm the ship, but I am open to the possibility that Alex Smith comes to camp determined to prove himself and eventually fulfills his potential
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on Apr 28, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
I think this is how most people see the situation, now. Everyone knows Hill will likely start the season. The only way Smith ever sees the field is if Hill starts to suck, or Smith shows during camp that he’s worlds better. Both of those scenarios are highly unlikely, even if they are possible.
by sfgfan on Apr 28, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't need to move into the top 5
Bradford, McCoy and LeFevour all look pretty legit. If the Niners feel so inclined they can trade up for the last one of those 3.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Apr 29, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we should keep both
I know a lot of us wanted a tackle. If we get two decent picks we may be able to take a player like McCoy at 15 or so (depending on how he does this year) and still get an OT who can start at LT in the top 10. Its too premature to determine if we will be picking high enough. However..
Bradford is the only QB I would trade two picks for one for.
Tebow will be drafted in the 2nd- 4th round kinda like pat white. So he doesnt factor in
by GreatOden'sRaven on Apr 28, 2009 11:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for doing this Danny
I was thinking about a QB next year as soon as I saw the trade and it’s nice to have this breakdown to see what it takes to get where.
As a rule I generally don’t favor moving up in the draft but having the flexibility is always a good thing. Another way to look at it though its simply as having two bites at the first-round QB apple.
Again, like FD stresses, we’re just using QB as a holder position, but it’s nice to think about.
by foosball4949 on Apr 28, 2009 11:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It should be noted the old trade chart no longer works
1. Look at the Jets/Brown trade.
2. Listen to the reports which said 8 of teams with picks in the Top 10 were looking to trade out due to the financials of the pick.
3. Add on that Stafford got 16% raise over last years top paid rookie making a few GM’s furious over the prospects of being able to sign any top picks in 2010.
Unless a rookie salary scale is implemented the highest valued picks in next years draft will be between picks 10 – 24.
Speaking of the rookie contracts. Teams always say they want to get younger for the future. However, given the financial meltdown outlook of the 2010 draft I wonder if there is one GM willing to sign a ton a veteran players to become more competitive now in order to avoid a Top 10 pick in 2010. (Here’s a hint . . . Belichick has done this since 2001)
by bignerd on Apr 28, 2009 1:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed...
…but it’s the only thing we have to go on right now.
by Florida Danny on Apr 28, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think what we learned from this draft is unless a QB is on the board no team is going to trade into the Top 10.
by bignerd on Apr 28, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want them to get low enough to get Taylor Fricken Mays!
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Apr 28, 2009 5:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Totally agree that Taylor Mays is the guy that i would really like to see pursued next year. Unless one of our current safeties this year becomes a stud…………
by sundaysfinest on Apr 28, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather get Berry
Mays will have a great combine and wow people with his measurables, but Berry from Tennessee is a real playmaker. He reads the quarterback better and plays the ball in the air really well. He is already compared to Ed Reed for his ability make big plays.
I’d let some other team grab the physical freak Mays who I worry will get too big and is to stiff to play FS for too long.
by DiegoAsFan on Apr 28, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve read numerous times from various fans that Mays already looks like a SS more than a FS. If this is the case and Berry definitely looks like a FS, I’d go for the FS. A SS can be found in the later rounds, where a playmaking FS provides some value in the first.
by sfgfan on Apr 29, 2009 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meh
I’d take a shot on Cody a million times over Mays. Mays is the next Roy Williams.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Apr 29, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
[Terrance] Cody
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Apr 29, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
precisely
Cody is the must-have prospect for the 49ers in next year’s draft. Cody and Berry would make this team infinitely better for the next 5-6 years and would give Singletary the kind of players needed to successfully run a 3-4 defense.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 30, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd hope to see the Raiders "do it again"
Mays is a player, but I’d rather have Eric Berry. We need a sack artist. slash ballhawk, slash big hitter like Berry. The numbers are there (Ed Reed type) and before I say the hit power, just watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk7Oj8wmRLQ
E Mutha (site decorum) Berry
LG
by rlott#42 on Apr 28, 2009 7:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
wow
That was beastly. Well that gives us two options at FS. I say we dont trade up to get a QB as of now. We need to see how Smith and Hill pan out and also Nate Davis before thinking about that. Hill is good for like 5 years if we get a solid RT. Do you guys think Nate Davis will play in the preseason games?
In Shaun Hill will trust
by iaalexeeff on Apr 28, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the 49ers have a shot at someone...
… who can be a franchise QB, Hill, Smith, and Davis shouldn’t factor into the decision at all. If any of those three show to be a capable starter, then that’s a good problem to have.
by sfgfan on Apr 29, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
great article
But I don’t know how you decided on both the probable record for each team being between 14-2 and 5-11. While I think this is a good guess for the Panthers because of the difficulty of having a 15-1 or 16-0 seasons and what can happen with injuries. I think the 49ers have a higher chance of going 4-12 than 14-2. i think a more reasonable range for the 49ers would be between 11-5 or 3-13 which is 4 games different from the 2008 record. You could even change that to 11-5 and 4-12 because of the difficulty of losing 13 games in the NFC west. This would change the percentages drastically. With a record between 11-5 or 4-12 for the 49ers they would have a 5% chance at #1,
a 9% chance at #2,
a 25% chance at #3,
a 30% chance at # 4,
and 5% chance at # 5
The 49ers would than have a 74% chance of landing a top 5 pick.
I think this logic is flawed because the % imply that the teams have as good a chance of finishing at the extreme of their possible records as they do at the middle of their possible records. I think it is more likely that the panthers would finish between 13-3 and 10-6 and the 49ers would finish between 9-7 and 6-10. So I took these scenarios and doubled the probability of that happening. The % of the 49ers getting the #
- went down to 4%,
- went down to 7%
- went down to 21%
- went up to 33%
- went up to 6%
Total chances of getting a top 5 pick went down to 72%
This shows what flexibility the 49ers will have. If they want a top 5 pick they should be able to get that player. If they want 2 first round picks they have that option, if they want to trade a 1st round pick for a proven player before the season starts they have that option. Things are looking good.
by gtimes4 on Apr 28, 2009 9:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Berry may be good but don't kid yourself downgrading Taylor Mays
Taylor Mays is NOT just a combine stat phreak. He is the REAL DEAL. He brings a huge punch if you try to come over the middle. Game-changing speed AND size = intimidating force in the middle of the field. I have watched him play corner and safety at USC since his freshmen year (my kids go there).
Think Ronnie Lott, but bigger AND faster. High praise ’cause Lott was the BEST, but undeniably true. Reminds me of a forgotten Niner great whose career was cut short, Jeff Fuller.
Here’s a vote for the next great MAYS roaming centerfield at Candlestick Park.
by FortyEffin9erFan on Apr 29, 2009 2:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Videos of Taylor Mays
You do if you want your defense to dominate. Lott started as a corner and ended as a safety. Mays started as a corner at USC but played safety last year.
Check these videos:
by FortyEffin9erFan on Apr 29, 2009 2:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Mays
Big hits are good to get you on ESPN, but they don’t mean much in the grand scheme of things. Eric Berry is a better safety prospect than Taylor Mays. Mays rarely ends up making much of a difference in a game for someone of his freakish athleticism and size. He’s overrated at this point of his career.
Meanwhile, Eric Berry is out there intercepting Peyton Manning’s passes. He simply knows how to play the game and play FS.
I like Mays, just not in the slot where he’s likely to be drafted next year.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 30, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is a sample list of possible 1st round picks from the 2010 NFL Draft
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/draft-2009/04/28/2010/index.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/andrew_perloff/04/28/2010/index.html
by FortyEffin9erFan on Apr 29, 2009 3:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ouch
That second link is a mock where we’re projected as the #5 pick, and that’s not after a trade including the Carolina pick. As much as I’d like Taylor Mays, I’d much rather make the playoffs in 2009.
Oh and I promise no front page posts on the 2010 draft anytime soon.
by Fooch on Apr 29, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
aside from...
that Florida Danny post about the Panthers 2010 pick.
by Fooch on Apr 29, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT
I wish there were a way to assign “nicknames” to members monikers. I know it can wreak all kinds of havoc to the discussion tree, but certain usernames are just so blatantly “blah” it actually gets kind of annoying. I know this is kind of a nitpicky and even kind of condescending (or something like that) kind of thing to complain about, it just kind of bugs me.
by sfgfan on Apr 29, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
Those are terrible, both the list and the mocks. This is why the media is consistently wrong going into a draft.
There’s no way that legitimate 3-4 NT’s and OLB’s are rated that low on any NFL board. They got a lot of the top names in next year’s class right… just bad ordering of their talent.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Apr 30, 2009 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2009 DRAFT!!!!
GETTING CRABTREE WAS A STEAL AND SO WAS THE LIB MC KILLOP BUT THE OTHERS LIKE COFFEE PASCOE ETC. SUCKS!!!!!! THERE WAS BETTER QUALITY OF PLAYERS IN THE 3 RD TO THE 7 TH ROUND THAN THE PLAYERS CHOSEN!!! IN THE 3 RD ROUND THE 49ERS COULD HAVE HAD OT TUPOU FROM OREGON, S RASHAD JOHNSON ALABAMA, OT KROPOG TULANE, G HERMAN JOHNSON FROM LSU, RB GOODSON FROM TEXAS A&M, C LUIGS ARKANSAS, CB FRANCIES FROM SAN JOSE ST. ETC. NEXT YEAR THEY HAVE 2 FIRST ROUND PICKS AND I HOPE THEY INVITE SOMEONE WITH COMMON SENSE (ME) TO CONDUCT THE DRAFT!!!!!
by slammin on Apr 30, 2009 3:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you saw the same picture.
It was a terrible draft after Crabtree. I agree with you that they could have gotten players to help this year (Mention above). Instead, we got backups. Everyone cheers about Crabtree and next years #1 pick.Well that doesn’t cut it. We needed help for years and to set it back for one more year, doesn’t make sense.
by LASVEGASNINER on May 1, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
u
blew my brain hole.
Your uncle molests collies.
by 3k on May 13, 2009 11:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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