2008 to 2009: Can the 49ers "momentum" carry over?
by Fooch on May 11, 2009 11:50 AM PDT
in News
47 comments
Over the weekend sam23 posted a FanShot about this Don Banks article predicting the 49ers will be one of six teams. It was also posted in a Golden Nugget, but I wanted to pull out what I thought was most intriguing about the article:
The 49ers finished the season at 5-2 in their last seven games under interim head coach Mike Singletary, and that's almost always going to earn you chic-pick, team-on-the-rise status heading into the following season. But there is something about Singletary's old-school approach that seems to be exactly what the lackadaisical 49ers have lacked in recent years. He doesn't seem to suffer fools or sloppiness too well, and those are two things that have not been in short supply in San Francisco for a while now.
What has me curious is the idea of a strong finish the season before leading to great things in the subsequent sason. In 2006, the 49ers finished the season 2-1 including what I thought was a very solid OT win to knock the Broncos out of the playoff hunt. Coming off a 7-9 season, the 49ers were the chic pick to get in the playoffs. Then they proceeded to fall flat on their face, finishing 5-11.
After a poor start lead to the firing of Mike Nolan, the 49ers finished 2008 with a 5-2 record and had some buzz under Coach Singletary. Granted some of the opponents weren't exactly awesome, but I still think you could say the team finished with some solid momentum. The 49ers obviously added some talent this offseason, but they'll be carrying forward with a lot of what finished 5-2.
The question then is whether you believe such momentum can be carried forward into the following season? Although I'm asking specifically about the 49ers, I'm curious what people think about this concept in the abstract as well. If a team finishes a season strong and doesn't have a ton of turnover, can momentum really carry over into the next season?
Personally, I'm not really sure. I think Mike Singletary brings the team something they lacked for much of last year. And that attitude could carry over into this season. But does that mean that some imaginary momentum has carried over with it?
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2-5 or 5-2 in the previous season’s last 7 games. Which is more likely to mean good things for the comming season. That’s just too obvious!!
by CorneliusJ on May 11, 2009 12:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jimmy Raye is the new OC...
How much momentum is carried over from that?
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Momentum?
I think the only momentum that could possibly carry over from the previous year is the mental momentum. The players believing they’re not that far off in the league and that some more hard work could possibly result in a couple more wins.
I don’t think that mental aspect of the game can 100% translate to on the field results. There are just way too many other factors. What teams are the 49ers playing in the first seven games? How did they compare last season to the last seven teams? How much have those new seven teams improved between last year and this year?
Don’t get me wrong. A winning mentality in football can work for a team. However, there are other teams in the league that will probably be carrying the same mental momentum coming into this season, too. Thus, the results may not reflect the momentum that may carry over.
by sfgfan on May 11, 2009 12:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
momentum works
if the team understands how and why they were able to perform. If yes, then that will carry over into the next season. If no, then the momentum will be a smokescreen that easily gets blown away. I doubt think the niners really have momentum because we have another OC with another system that the players will have to get used to and comfortable playing in.
Historically teams that have momentum have established coaching staffs and players who know exactly what they are doing and supposed to do on both offense and defense, plus they have the understanding of what they are good at and why.
by jviet on May 11, 2009 12:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you look back
we did start out 2-0 in the year we were the chic NFC West pick, so I guess, in a sense momentum carried over. We had already beaten our opponents mentally, before the game was even played, because we were the trendy pick. It took about 2 games after the 2-0 start to realize that prediction wasn’t coming to fruition.
Last year, we started 2-1 as well, and you’ll recall we finished that 5-11 season fairly strong too. The team won 2 of its last 3 to end its dismal season. The Big Mo may have carried over, as we did begin 2-1, but with a fresh offensive co-oridinator and QB. That freshness lasted about 2 more games after the 2-1 start.
The Niners ended 2008 5-2, with the Big Mo on their side, completely. They’ve also landed superstar Michael Crabtree. Mike Singletary is the head coach, who is teaching players to be as tough physically as you are mentally. Everyone on the 49ers is talking about physical, with an “F”, from the Running Backs coach to the GM. The team is building itself up on toughness, not necessarily talent. That’s not to say there isn’t any talent either.
Patrick Willis is probably the most physical and most talented player on the 49ers roster. Frank Gore is also much of both. Tough players like Justin Smith and Joe Staley wear down opponents, and grind out plays. Nate Clements and Michael Lewis can tackle with the best of them at their positions. The defense is still lacking that ball-hawking star, but overall its a physical secondary, not the most gifted, but they can hit.
We have a solid group of tough guys, that don’t take plays off (aside from Gore, but as a RB, its understandable). They may not be sacrifice a finger tough, but no one is Ronnie Lott but Ronnie Lott. The nucleus this team is built around are some tough S.O.B.s, that rarely get hurt (again, aside from Frank Gore).
In years past, we’d head into an offseason to acquire one of these said guys via Free Agency or in the first round. Now, these guys have been here, and aren’t new faces, they can help install the teams philosophy during the training sessions. Mike Singletary will demand it. In years past, Mike Nolan just told them about how good they were. “Don’t tell me, show me”, is apt for this new regime.
I guess my point is, we actually have a solid foundation in place to keep the momentum going forward. There isn’t a Co-Oridinator epidemic (Jim Hostler), there isn’t a mad man with a turnover machine at QB (Martz/JTO), and there isn’t a fluffy, soft head coach. Jimmy Raye isn’t going to “wow” anyone from a scheme standpoint, but he certainly has been around long enough to be respected by the players. Shaun Hill is going to compete with Alex Smith for the starter’s gig. Both are upgrades over JTO. Mike Singletary will make you run the hill if you let him down. That ain’t fluffy, or soft.
by Andrew Davidson on May 11, 2009 12:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
IIRC...
Nolan was a hard disciplinarian his first couple of years in SF. He didn’t make you run up a hill. He just cut or traded you.
I think people tend to forget things due the the gloss of the new HC.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nolan
was a soft head coach. He didn’t challenge the players he liked, or thought were most talented.
he was a dictator, yes. If he didn’t like you, you were cut. However, he was soft, and fluffly and wishy-washy. It’s all been evidenced before, with his softie post-game speeches after losses, or his run of the mill praise of guys who were constantly underacheiving.
by Andrew Davidson on May 11, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He challenged Smith...
He questioned his toughness.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nolan
was scapegoating Jim Hostler, with Alex Smith.
He destroyed Alex Smith. I’m not saying the Norv Turner leaving after staying after almost leaving was Nolan’s fault, but putting Jim Hostler in charge afterwards was. How long did it take Nolan to get help for Hostler? Too long, yet he threw Alex under the bus immediately. That’s not being a good head coach. The offense started to turn it around when Ted Tollner came in and “consulted”.
I’m not trying to blame all the bad on Nolan, because a lot of the good is because of him as well. I’m just saying he was a really, really, really sucky head coach when it came to getting players to perform well, and play tough.
by Andrew Davidson on May 11, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, one of the better 49er traits the past few dismal seasons...
Was that they didn’t give up, and played hard throughout. Nolan wasn’t a good overall coach, and he may have favored his “character guys” a bit too much, but I don’t see Singletary much different at this point. I mean, just because he make them run a hill?
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I recall...
… the Hill existed during Nolan’s time, too. I remember 49ers.com doing a feature article on it a while back (a while meaning before this offseason).
by sfgfan on May 11, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You both are right
With the 49ers in the midst of their second phase of a 14-week offseason program, Singletary and head strength and conditioning coach Duane Carlisle have introduced "Pain," the name commonly referred to the rebuilt 45-foot high training hill at team headquarters.
by supraman on May 11, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The Hill" aside...
No doubt Singletary walks the “tough” walk, and he has the career as a player to prove it. But coaching is more than being tough. I can see the reason for doing that as far as giving them a sort of identity for a young team, but if it doesn’t translate into wins do to deficiencies in the other areas of coaching, then that can wear thin. Heck, I think Phil Jackson’s style of coaching has wore on the Lakers, and that guy has a proven track record.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
It’ll be interesting to see where the team goes and what direction Singletary takes with his coaching approach as time wears on.
Too lazy to bring up the link and actual quote, but there was an article (the only kind of articles I ever like from here are “reporting” kind of articles) by Killion about the Singletary family, and Singletary’s wife said that after his tirade on “selfish” players last season, he realized that not everything he thinks has to be said. So hopefully that’s a sign of him understanding that being “tough” on players 100% isn’t always the appropriate course of action.
by sfgfan on May 11, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Singletary's wife was alluding...
On how he approaches the Media, rather than the players.
Singletary’s family, scattered in different locations, watched his controversy-filled first game — the one in which he sent tight end Vernon Davis off the field for insubordination. Perhaps better than anyone else in the world, Singletary’s children knew just what Davis could expect.
“I thought, ‘Ohhh, Vernon, don’t turn back around,’” Kristen said. “And of course he did. So when Dad sent him off, I thought, as his kid, ‘of course he’d do that.’ He does not make idle threats.”
And then there was the postgame news conference, the one in which Singletary famously went off on selfish players by ranting, “Cannot play with them, cannot coach with them, can’t do it.” When Kim watched him come to the podium, she could tell what was about to happen.
“I thought, ‘Oh no. No, no, no,’” she said. “I think he’s learned that you don’t have to say everything.”
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could be right.
My mind must have translated it differently this morning.
by sfgfan on May 11, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smith had a dislocated shoulder
and Nolan threw him under the bus. That’s not questioning someone’s toughness. That’s being stupid.
by Bob On The Coast on May 11, 2009 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
And another thing on Nolans era compared to what I have noticed thus far in Singletarys. How many games can you count in which the Niners were in a situation to win a game, and should have won a game, but no adjustments were made? You just take those instances alone and they should have been in the playoffs the past two seasons. Singletary came out and made the necessary adjustments right away. He put in Hill, he put in Racheal, he stopped dicking around with the defense. The way Nolan was F-ing around with defensive formations and positions was retarded. The style of play was completely different when Sing stepped in, and I do believe it will translate into much more wins next season. He doesn’t just do things to do things, he does what you are supposed to do to give the team a chance to win.
by jonesin25 on May 11, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we're talking momentum here...
First, it wasn’t a groundbreaking move to put Hill in. If Smith were healthy, Smith would have been in instead of Hill, so let’s not make it seem like Singletary made a Lomabardi-esque decision. Singletary just left the x’s an o’s up to his coordinators. All he wanted was to simplify things a little more. Good things, yes. Good enough to help him win the job . But there were 2 other factors involved: Martz, and the opposition. Again, the 49ers second half wins came against teams who one a total of 8 altogether. The offense went for 32 in points up to 22nd in points after Martz. The defense went for 20th in points allowed to 23rd.
Now, they have Jimmy Raye. Who isn’t Martz. They also have a tougher stretch in the middle of next years schedule. If anything, the momentum won’t be on offense, since I can’t see Raye, just by his history alone, can improve on what Martz did, other than keep turnovers down. The passing offense last year had momentum. The 49ers still aren’t decided on who is will be the starter on offense, according to Raye.
That’s not a carry over from last season.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time of Possesion
I have to say that I think as long as our offense can win the TOP game, and give our defense a break we are going to win more games.
in 2008 offensive TOP rank 20th
in 2007 offensive TOP rank 32nd
in 2006 offensive TOP rank 25th
Problem is that our offense hasn’t been able to do that for more reasons than just the players. Nolan was always making questionable calls. I would find my self optimistically thinking he will figure it out but never seemed to get over the hump.
So in my mind, Jimmy Raye, if he can keep the ball moving and in our hands longer. I think we will be better off. Martz couldn’t do it cause he wanted to pass the ball all the time. I am so glad that Sing stepped in and dummied everything up it needed to happen.
I also think our defense is not that bad! Problem is that for the last three years our defensive unit has been on the field for more than 1000 plays each year.
Defensive plays from scrimmage
2008 rank 27th with 1027
2007 rank 31st with 1078
2006 rank 25th with 1025
With all this said I like what I see and I think there is momentum here and we will make the most of it because of Sing simplifying everything. Nolan/Martz was so complicated it made me sick. I watch/listened to the games and was like why are you throwing on 1st/2nd and 3rd down. I remember one game where we only had the ball for (I think) one possession.
We do need to establish the run. So our offense can have the ball longer in a game.
stats from NFL.com
by parellano21 on May 12, 2009 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
The combination of Nolan’s bend but don’t break (until the defense has been on the field for twenty minutes) defense and Martz’s high risk/little reward three and out offense was crazy. The first half of last year was some of the most frustrating Niner football I’ve seen.
by Bob On The Coast on May 12, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Listening
Its even harder listening to it.
"Niner fan living in Bronco land!" 2006 was great!!!!
by parellano21 on May 13, 2009 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's Nolan questioning someone's toughness.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What this team needs is discipline. I think coach Sing brings that much needed discipline. His “no BS” attitude will get the team more wins this year. Nolan looked pitiful last year under adversity, while Singletary isn’t afraid to make adjustments during the game to get the win.
by hugemelvin on May 11, 2009 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There is definitely momentum on defense.
Once Nolan left and Manusky changed to a standard 3-4, the defense improved dramatically. Some of that may have been due to the fairly weak late schedule, but I think there was some momentum there and it will carry over. There is less situational substitution, so the linemen and LBs get more time playing together, which always helps. If Goldson, R. Smith, and Williams can improve the secondary and the pass rush shows improvement, we could have a top 10 defense. There are a lot of guys on defense with solid potential, and this is the year they need to step up and demonstrate they are starters in this league.
On offense, not so much momentum. But I’d be more comfortable seeing Hill start the season over Smith. The RB and WR situations will be interesting to watch in TC and preseason games.
by MontanaPass on May 11, 2009 1:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's legit this time
The defense is solid, not top 10 in the NFL but definitely better than the other NFC West foes. The O-line should gave up way less sacks this year with Martz’s deep drop back gone and Hill’s ability of avoiding them in general. Finally, the receiving group looks good on paper with the reliable Bruce returning and the potential stars in Morgan and Crabtree. Jason Hill and Jones aren’t bad either, although Jones better produce or I foresee him as just an one-year Niner.
Lastly, QB play is very crucial – last year JTO had too much turnovers and that practically put the 49ers into an early deficit they could not overcome. Although Hill is not a superstar QB with a cannon, he manages the game well and typically avoid costly turnovers (i.e. INT in the red zone). The Cards have motivated all the mediocre teams in the NFL that just barely getting your foot into the playoffs can transform a team into a beast for 3-4 games.
The Rams, Seahawks and Cardinals have gone to the SB and lost in this decade – it’s time for the 49ers to go and show them how it’s done to protect their perfect SB record.
Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems
by Scooter Ellis on May 11, 2009 1:11 PM PDT reply actions 6 recs
well said
I wish I could put a gold star on that one.
by Andrew Davidson on May 11, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it...
49er fans forget there is a new OC ????
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't
In Norv Turner’s 1st season Smith threw for 2800 yards and Gore ran for 1600 yards it’s just the WR’s weren’t anywhere near as good and Smith amassed 16 int’s. Not a knock on Smith he was in his second year but there was enough production to warrant w’s
M. S. #50
by rlott#42 on May 11, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you think Jimmy Raye..
Is as good as Norv Turner?
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
even if he is not as good
We have a better team overall than when Turner was here
In Shaun Hill will trust
by iaalexeeff on May 11, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
If the team has momentum on offense, it’s because of personnel, not offensive system. There’s a strong consensus that the team roster looks as good or better than it did when Turner took over, and that offense produced pretty well.
In Singletary we trust.
by grantmp on May 11, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The offense was ranked 24th overall...
And the below link shows you some other interesting stats.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
People don't look to deep into 2006 enough...
All they see is 7 wins, without looking at who they actually beat and the SOS.
This guy makes an interesting case of the 2006 49ers:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=380
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think momentum can be carried over in non-mental ways too
it was clear by the end of the season that Hill had created a rapport with the other Hill, and that maybe the OL was learning to work together a bit, apart from RT. This kind of intangible unit cohesiveness and intra-team bonding can carry over from one season to the next even if the players have to shake off rust after every off-season
by foosball4949 on May 11, 2009 1:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They got to beat the teams they're suppose to beat.
Division-4/2, split with Cards and Seahawk and take 2 from Rams. 5 Playoff teams- at best 2/3, more like 1/4. 5 Avg teams-one of them being the Loins. Hopefully 4/1 or at worse 3/2. So based on theses numbers,we’re looking at 9/7. Now, with a little bit of luck, excellent coaching and great play skills,we could go as high as 10/11 wins. In this Division, It’s ours to be had.
by LASVEGASNINER on May 11, 2009 3:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
mental part of football
Being mentally strong is hard. Anybody can lift weights and train to become really fast. But you need to know how to apply your skills to win the game. Ex: Patrick Willis. Becomes a beast on the field and gets the job down. Doesn’t worry about getting contract extensions just plays the game. Winning at the end of the season gave us momentum. Even if we come off beating not so good teams a win is a win. Momentum is momentum. We just need to keep it going.
In Shaun Hill will trust
by iaalexeeff on May 11, 2009 6:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah definitely, momentum can carry over from the past season, but it doesn't have to
and it’s not enough to win, as we’ve seen the last two seasons
But the team was changed mid-way through last season, with a new HC and a new starting QB, and the team’s been slowly building on this change ever since – now we have Crabtree, now we have Coffee, now we have Moran Norris and Bear Pascoe, now we have a defense and an offensive line with a steady half of the last season to build on – that’s momentum, and it’s a good thing.
"Those boos really motivate me to make something happen." - Bonds
by Persiflage on May 11, 2009 6:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Another thing that I think will factor into momentum carrying over to next season is the return of one Tom Rathman. If he coaches his backs to play like he played, its gonna be too nice.
"I sing a song from Sing-Sing, sipping on ginseng."-- Wu Tang
by jfainsf49 on May 11, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The concept in the abstract
I think that there is a carryover between seasons. Teams can come together during a season and finish strong, and that cohesion can over into the next year.
by Bob On The Coast on May 11, 2009 6:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Like 2007 to 2008?
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 11, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was answering Fooch's question generally
Some teams have jelled during the course of a season. You see them mature and the next year they continue their good play.
I wasn’t speaking specifically about the Niners or even more specifically about the Niners between 2007 and 2008. The Niners won a couple of games near the end of 2007 but could anyone say that the team had jelled? No. The offense was a mess.
by Bob On The Coast on May 12, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something about the irresistable for force and some object.....?
It was a true treat to see the Niners finish strong last year under Coach Sing. There is no doubt that the team has lacked a good swift kick in the posterior to get them moving. But that was then. Momentum can only be carried to a certain point, when it must stop. Say….the playoffs and post-season. What I believe the Niners do have instead of momentum…..is confidence. They have a HC they can believe will be around for more than 3 min. An OC that has shown a willingness to be flexible. A DC who is no longer a spring chicken. A finally a front office that has shown glimmers of REALLY backing the team, instead of simply showing them off as “BLING”. Now, if we can just get that QB situation under thumb…….
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
by DarkkStarr1 on May 12, 2009 1:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Shaun Hill
Everyones keeps talking about how well the niners did at the end of the season for the past few seasons. If you notice, the QB was Hill. The team respects him, he has a never say die attitude that is reminiscent to the way Steve Young or a younger Brett Favre played. I know that he doesn’t have the arm strength, but he plays smart. Nolan sucked becasuse he was too proud to know that he was wrong about Shaun. If he played more in 07 we would have gone at least 7-9. Not great, but better then 5-11 or actually we were 3-10 when Hill took over. Singletary has the respect of his players and with men thats what you need, respect. You don’t have to liked, but you need to be respected. He is also a hall of famer, so they trust in him as well. He has been where they want to be. We will be better, you’ll see. Shaun will be the starter and we will be better for it! He has the confidence that our team lacked for so long. He brings an energy that was missing when Nolan was there. Singletary does the same thing. Go Niners!!!!
by sammysoul7 on May 12, 2009 7:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Fixed -
Everyones keeps talking about how well the niners did at the end of the season for the past few seasons. If you notice, the QB was Hill. The team respects him, he has a never say die attitude that is reminiscent to the way Steve Young or a younger Brett Favre played.
"Those boos really motivate me to make something happen." - Bonds
by Persiflage on May 12, 2009 9:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How the players feel
I think its also important to point out that we all have our own opinions on whether or not we have momentum and if it will help us it next season, but its our opinions. What do the players and coaches think or believe?
Many of them have already seen a difference in the way the team has changed and grown since Sing took over. There are more players involved in the off season conditioning program and lots of vet players showed up for voluntary mini camp and rookie mini camp. There is more unity and the players want to be there and are all pushing each other to get better. Staley said he planned to stop by for a bit and show the rookies support, but wound up staying for the whole practice.
It seems to me that the whole team has a lot more confidence and They feel they have momentum going into next season. They believe they getting better as a team and as individuals. I think that is the most important thing.
by agchee on May 12, 2009 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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