Phillip Rivers/Shaun Hill
by Tony C on May 13, 2009 3:03 PM PDT
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PrintIs it just me or does shaun hill remind you of phillip rivers? Watch the way they both throw the ball. They both have an odd release that are very similar. They also look like they could be brothers maybe. The ball comes out there hands weird. Looks like they cant throw with much power. Check out film videos on both and tell me I am not right. I wouldnt mind having phillip rivers as my starter and maybe shaun hill will out perform this first round pick. I can not wait for the season to start! What ya think?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Rivers may have a awkward delivery, but he can still get the ball down the field. He also has a crisp release and, despite the jerky motion while he’s got the ball, hurls a tight spiral.
Shaun Hill throws wobbly ducks that seem to tumble out of the sky like tail-spinning jets whenever they go farther than 25 yards.
I think it’s going a little far to expect Hill to perform as well as Rivers based solely on the fact that they both have funky mechanics. Phillip Rivers is a pro bowl QB, and a spectacular NFL player (even if he is a douche irl). If I were you, I’d be happy with an 85 QB rating from 350 passing attempts out of a full 16 game season out of Shaun Hill.
Cannon????
NO WAY!
Phillip Rivers is probably one of the weakest starting QBs in the league.
He’s also douchebag-y
by SportsChicken on May 13, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions
He doesn't need to so often
Norv Turner doesn’t run a vertical threat passing offense.
(that’s why they don’t need big name WRs)
He just has to manage the game and make plays when needed
by SportsChicken on May 15, 2009 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Why is everyone bashing Chambers and Jackson?
They’re solid starting WRs – especially when you’ve also got Gates and one of the best past-catching backfields in the game.
SOLID wide recievers
But not great or game changing….
You just summed up all of my opinions with your post….
by SportsChicken on May 16, 2009 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't see it..
Rivers has a better arm.. Shaun has a better mind, and better placement..
when he is not outthrowning his arm, his passes are on the money, he is definitely, one of the best short passers in the league.. it takes skill to do that, a lot of guys with cannons can’t complete the touch pass, as well as read the d, to set the rec. up in an advatage.. and with yac guys like crabs, and Morgan, I think Shaun is finally going to get a offense, best suited for well.. a guy like Shaun Hill.. someone with a cannon would probably not be as well suited..
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 13, 2009 3:26 PM PDT reply actions
Shaun has a better mind, and better placement..
lol?
…you were joking right?
Also, being limited to short passes doesn’t mean that you’re especially good at throwing them. Go back and watch some film of Rich Gannon in his prime years with the Raiders – now THAT guy was good at throwing the short stuff. Shaun Hill? Ehhhh…
..nope wasn't joking..
..he can get it out as quick as anyone in the league.. saw it last year..
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 16, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Well....
I honestly was trying to just make 75 words out of this comment so i rambled a bit. But If you watch tape on these guys they look very similar when throwing the ball.
ok..
I can see that..
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 13, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions
After living in SD, and watching most of Rivers games
I have to say I don’t see it. Rivers arm is considerably stronger and he is a good deal more accurate. They may both have less than perfect deliveries but Hill doesn’t have the basic tools to do all the things Rivers can do.
Hill has good pocket awareness and is good at reading defenses but he doesn’t have the arm to be much more than an average QB in the NFL.
We'll have to see about that..
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 13, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I hope I'm wrong
I like Shaun Hill and I think the Niner’s can win games with him, but I just don’t think he’ll ever be much more than a “don’t lose the game” QB. It just seems like the ball floats too much when he has to throw it more than 10 yards in the air which will make it hard to make plays down field.
Also, an average NFL QB is not that bad of a thing, it still means he’s better than a lot of guys in the league.
More than 10 yards?
c’mon man.. first of all that’s afirst down..2nd of all he was in Martz system, and even wuth one of the weaker arms, he still made the longest (I’ll beit ugly) pass of mini camp.. around 45 yards according to Maiocco, and around 50 according to Barrows..
Just give him one chance, if he sucks, well, then he sucks, but obviously as a long time Joe Montana, and 49er fan, I see a winner in this guy..hence my moniker..
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 13, 2009 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions
We'll just have to wait and see
And I didn’t mean to imply he can’t throw it more than ten yards, only that I think the ball tends to hang up in the air too long when he does which makes it harder to make accurate throws and easier for defenders to break up the play.
I’m not opposed to giving him a chance and I don’t think he sucks, I just don’t think he has the physical tools to be one of the top QBs in the league.
Well..
..you aren’t the only one, and neither am I .. don’t you hate the offseason?
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 13, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions
In 1985
In one of the Bear’s biggest games of the year, Jim McMahon threw a 70 yard TD pass to Willie Gault.
The ball was in the air, not 70 yards but 40 yards. Factor in the 10 yards McMahon was behind the LOS and the ball was ‘lofted’ almost 50 yards.
If any NFL QB can’t do that then there’s something wrong.
The KEY elements on that play were:
A). A screen pass was called.
B). The Vikings came with an all-out blitz and McMahon adjusted to the blitz . . . to what should have been an open Gault.
C). ACCURACY! The ball fell right into Gault’s hands . . . in stride.
Having a rocket arm is great. It allows you to throw ropes to the sideline and squeeze the ball into tight spaces. Even if you have that kind of arm, you still have to be accurate.
If you don’t have that kind of arm, you just have to do a great job of reading the defense and being accurate where you do throw the ball.
..um yeah
..what he said..
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 13, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions
An interesting thing:
Hill interviewed with KNBR last week. An interesting thing that came up was that he basically said that the broken finger he played with in 2007 is only just now healing to the point where it’s not bothering him.
Now, I’m not going to run circles around the idea that this means he’s suddenly going to be able to chuck the hell out of the ball, but I am somewhat intrigued by the idea that the weak-armed, lame-duck Swan Hill we’ve seen throughout his 10 wonderfully sample sized starts was actually a hampered version of the guy we get to see this year.
Now, who knows what was actually going on with the finger last season, but if it was affecting his grip in any significant way, we could be in for a bit of a surprise when that officially stops being the case.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 13, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Did someone slip me something?
.. I swear I am hallucinating?
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 13, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Why?
I’ve said lots of good things about Hill in the past. I support the guy. I’m not going to ignore either his limitations or the reality that ten games is a worfully small resume, but skepticism is not contradictory with optimism.
I sincerely expect good things from him. I just don’t happen to think that he’s the next coming of sex on wheels, is all.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 14, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
worfully? my stupid r key stuck every single time I tried to type it… except for the one typo. Awersome.
Woefully, that is.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 14, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
..Sex on wheels?
I don’t watch TV so I have never seen that show, but I was just merely surprised to hear a positive thing about Hill, by you, in response to me.
You know I can be the first to admit that nobody’s perfect, if that helps things.. obviously I am just sticking to my guns, and if he (Shaun) makes me look like a fool, then I will put on my clown suit.
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 16, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
..Clown suit
..was intitally started on the yahoo message board.. a poster by the name of vegasbaby could only pronounce 2 words.. one of them sucks..
..er it’s kind of an inside joke.. no I don’t actually have a clown suit, but if Shaun Hill completely sucks this year, I would consider wearing a clown suit, a NN party, after as much faith as I have displayed for him..
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 16, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions
It's my understanding
that Hill broke his finger when he flip off Nolan and Martz at the beginning of the season.
by LASVEGASNINER on May 14, 2009 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
If he really was affected by it...
It would, at the very least, improve his wobbliness.
That ball floated for so long...
That Jason Hill and Josh Morgan – along with both their defenders – had time to slow down and adjust to that ball.
It was a poorly thrown prayer, and the fact that it happened to fall into the hands of a 49ers receiver was pure luck.
Oh, really?
On the play that I’m talking about, Morgan put on a double move and had his man beaten by 3-4 yards when the ball was thrown. The same defender that trailed him by so far had ample time to catch up and nearly deflect the pass by the time it came down.
Additionally, Jason Hill was running a post from the left side of the field over to the middle. During the time that the ball hung in the air, he actually had time to stop, reverse track, and come back to the sideline to get under it. Had Morgan not cut him off, he’d have been right under the pass. The safety watching Hill was deep middle, and despite the fact that he waited until the last second to track the ball, he had time to get into position as well. Had he not taken such a questionable route, it would have been an easy pick.
Just because Morgan was moving when he caught the ball doesn’t mean he caught it “in stride.” He had to slow down and jump over a defender to catch what should have been a very easy TD strike.
Luck.
pti......
“If you don’t have that kind of arm, you just have to do a great job of reading the defense and being accurate where you do throw the ball.”
Isn’t that why Shaun is starting over Smith? Just a thoought.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
I think
that sometimes, stronger armed guys use that arm to have a great college career.
And when they get to the NFL, they find that the DB’s are overall so much better and quicker that they are no longer able to fire the ball to open receivers as well as they did in college.
And their college game was based more on their arm, than on leadership and reading defenses.
Conversely, ‘weaker, more average’ arm QB’s succeed more with leadership and decision making, than with athe stronger arm that they don’t have.
Two examples:
In the early 90’s, a beat-up Jim McMahon was Randall Cunningham’s back-up in Philadelphia. Cunningham had a rocket arm and was one of the most physically gifted QB’s to ever play the game. Yet, he had no leadership skills and was average-at-best when reading defenses.
That’s why, after a while, most of the guys wanted McMahon under center instead of Randall, based on Jim’s superior leadership and decision making.
Years later, when Jon Gruden became the OC in Philadelphia, the same thing happened. This time Rodney Peete replaced Cunningham.
As Gruden said in his book:
“Peete had a strong vibe and a lot of charisma. When we announced that he was going to be the starter for our fourth game, against New Orleans, the whole team just swelled up. EVERYBODY ROLLED UP HIS FISTS AND STARTED FIGHTING. By God, we ended up winning four in a row.”
I love that kind of stuff (everybody rolled up his fists and started fighting)!
For every...
… perceived McMahon, there are probably at least 50 Ken Dorseys.
Well, perception is nine-tenths of grit.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 14, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
and with a fantastic mullet
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
The reason that we'll have all stopped laughing, however...
is yet to be seen. It could just be a 6-10 record. That’d wipe the grin off most 49er fans’ faces.
Long Ball
Someone brought up the 55 yard pass to Morgan that Hill threw against St. Louis.
I would like to bring up the pass that went about 55 yards in the wrong direction(towards the ceiling) earlier in the game to Bruce.
Hill has a strange bounding lumpy leaping thing he does before he throws a deep ball.
Anybody else notice this?
Also, A. Smith has shown very poor accuracy on the deep routes. He can fire the ball, but he has thus far been terrible getting the ball over the top of the secondary.
Hill has a strange bounding lumpy leaping thing he does before he throws a deep ball.
I call that the Jeff Garcia complex. You know you’re not going to make it with your feet planted, so maybe if your throw a little bit of you body into it, the ball will go a little further.
lol just like a javelin. Is there a history there?
I have a tape of Sean Hill throwing javelin for his high school…j/k
Garcia also did it
To avoid having every one of his passes tipped. Jump a couple of inches on every throw, and it’s just like you’re 6’4"!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 14, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Whoops. Bold fail.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 14, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the “Alex Smith has shown very poor accuracy on deep routes” thing is really overblown. Are our memories really so short?
Smith looked really good throwing the ball long in 2006. He had a very, very good thing going with Antonio Bryant, and the two rarely seemed to miss each other on the long ball. Now, if Bryant could have done ANYTHING at all on routes that didn’t involve sprinting 30 yards, that would have been nice… but still… Alex Smith + Deep Ball does = recorded history of not sucking.
Smith’s truly (and frighteningly) erratic deep game only really surfaced with the shoulder injury. And somehow that perception got plastered over his whole career.
Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that Smith can throw a bulls eye from 60 yards away. He does have legitimate accuracy concerns, especially so long as his shoulder isn’t healthy. But the idea of his wild inaccuracy downfield is remarkably overblown in my opinion.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 14, 2009 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he throws it out of bounds every time.
It seems like he just doesn’t throw it the right way. He’s a wait until your open and I’ll throw you a straight pass kinda guy. He is not a “fit it in there” type of guy. Why? His throwing motion & natural grip.
I have noticed a shorter throwing motion. This may help some of his other mechanical issues.
No need. I misread you and we seem to have been talking about different things. My mistake.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 15, 2009 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Rivers
Is leagues ahead of Shaun Hill at this point. There is no comparison.
by InTimmyWeTrust on May 14, 2009 12:13 PM PDT reply actions
Much better...
… defense? Definitely.
Much better offense? Maybe not. He was spotted one of the best RBs in the last decade or so, sure. He had Gates, too. However, his WR group has generally been pretty crappy, no? I guess having protection up front can help alot, too. Definitely better, but I don’t know how much better it is/was.
Well (not trying to argue with you)
I’ll take Marty Shottenheimer’s (and now Norv’s) playoff team over Nolan and Hill’s team. Even with subpar WR’s. Maybe, as you say, the word ‘much’ doesn’t apply here. And that’s OK.
This is interesting. After the Cutler trade much was made of Cutler’s great talent over Orton (true, although Orton is a lot better than people know) and the Broncos great WR’s as opposed to the Bears (supposedly crappy)WR’s.
ESPN ran a graphic. Three out of the top four receivers in Denver were WR’s (Marshall, Royal, Stokely. The fourth was TE (Scheffler). Three WR’s, one TE.
In Chicago, it’s almost the opposite. One WR (Hester). The rest TE’s (Olson & Clark) and a RB (Forte).
And yet, the statistical difference isn’t all that big.
The Bears (under Orton) threw for 6.4 yards per attempt, 10.9 per catch and 198 yards per game.
Denver (under Cutler) threw for 7.3 yards per attempt, 11.8 per catch and 282 yards per game.
The Broncos obviously threw more than Chicago (616 attempts by Cutler against 465 by Orton). Which helps explain the almost 100 yards more per game (and Cutler’s 4,526 yards against Orton’s 2,972).
But Cutler’s 7.3 yards per attempt (against Orton’s 6.4) and Cutler’s 11.8 per catch (against Orton’s 10.9) isn’t all that big, considering that Cutler was throwing to all these ‘great receivers’ and Orton had almost no receivers and was forced to throw to TE’s and RB’s.
That was interesting. Orton throwing mainly to TE’s and a RB, along with an inexperienced WR, Hester, as compared to Pro-Bowler Jay Cutler and proven WR’s like Royal and Marshall and Stokely, and yet, per attempt and reception, not a huge difference.
That was real interesting, to me.
That speaks well of having LT and Gates and whomever else, for Rivers to throw to.
I see what you're saying.
I wasn’t trying to argue with you, per se. Just thought it was worth pointing out.
Also, I think I’m one of the few that think the Broncos are actually pretty okay with Orton. I’ve read a couple times that McDaniels seems to really like him, so that could be a good sign (at least for Orton).
No problem.
I didn’t take your post as arguing with me. I just didn’t want you to think that I was arguing with you.
I’m probably the only person who watched all of Shaun Hill’s games last year and all of Orton’s (except for one).
The one Bear game I missed was when both teams were on at the same time (SF @ Dallas. The Bears @ Rams). I watched the entire 49er game as the Rams suck and I knew the Bears would win there.
Supposedly, McDaniels watched every play by Orton and really wanted him. Phil Simms loves Kyle Orton. Orton played really well last year before he injured his ankle.
Orton and Shaun Hill are very similar. Both good leaders. Both effective passers (slight edge to Orton, to me). And both struggle a little with the long ball.
You can win with those kind of QB’s, IMO. They both having winning records as starters. To me, the entire team has to play well (as they should anyway) for those guys to succeed.
I’ve actually been a closet Kyle Orton fan since his rookie season. I’m excited to see whether or not the Broncos offense establishes his place as a franchise quarterback or exposes him as the next coming of Brad Johnson.
(I know, Brad Johnson was a bad example, because he had some FANTASTIC years and was a very, very good quarterback in his prime, but I couldn’t think of anybody else off the top of my head who always seemed to be good enough to start, but always fighting and clawing just to even keep a starting job)
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 14, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I liked Brad Johnson
I was just reading Jon Gruden’s book and he compared Brad to Gannon.
As far as Kyle Orton goes, like I said earlier, there was some talk about Chris Simms going to Chicago (before the Cutler trade) and father Phil talked about how much he has really liked Kyle since Purdue. It’s ironic that Chris went to Denver and that Kyle followed him there.
Kyle played really well last year, especially before he got hurt.
That’s what’s funny. Unless a person watches the games, they really don’t know. They go by ‘perception.’ The perception is that the Bears had a crappy offense and a still very good defense.
The reality was that last year, the offense overachieved and the defense underachieved. Their pass rush was non-existent and they blew three games at the end that they should have won.
Statistically, they we average but they either couldn’t mnake a big play when they needed it or gave up a big play to kill them.
Their defense did them in last year. Not their offense.
I also liked Brad Johnson. He played a couple of seasons as one of the top quarterbacks in the league, and yet it seemed like his place as a starter was never secure. Like I said, he was a bad example. But the only one I could think of.
I also like Orton quite a bit and I expect to see him do very well in Denver. But whether or not he can be a franchise-type quarterback really remains to be seen. Especially for those of us who don’t actually get to see him from week to week.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 15, 2009 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Vicent Jackson?
Vincent Jackson is pretty good. Had 1,098 yards and 7 tds last year. Also they have a better o-line. Chris Chambers isn’t have bad either.
In Shaun Hill will trust
Shaun Hill's arm
To me, you don’t need to be able to throw it 70+ yards. How often do you do you that? Accuracy is far more important. You throw it 20-30 yards way more than 70 yards. According to NFL.com Hill’s longest pass is 48 yards. You don’t even need to throw it 50 yards that much. With Raye’s offense most of the big plays will probably come from the YAC.
In Shaun Hill will trust
Not just for the deep ball
Arm strength isn’t just about throwing 70 yard bombs, where it really comes into play is the intermediate routes and the 20 yard outs and crosses. The stronger the QB’s arm is the quicker it gets to the receiver, with a weak arm the QB has to throw it with more loft. When the ball takes longer to reach the target the QB has to throw it sooner which means anticipating more and giving the defense more time to react and break up the play.
QB’s can survive with a weaker arm but it just makes it that much harder to read defenses and make accurate throws on routes past 10 yards.
But
If that “weak” QB is very accurate and can read defenses better than a “cannon-armed” QB he will have no problem picking apart defenses (see: Garcia, Jeff)
by SportsChicken on May 14, 2009 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions
weak-armed QB's
(see also: Pennington, Chad)
If you’ve got someone like that, though, you’ve got to hope that you’ve got 1) receivers that run consistent routes and 2) that that QB has very good judgment. Even relatively short out-routes will require the weak-armed QB to make a judgment just a split-second earlier in order for the ball to be on the receiver at the right time. It’s not that it can’t work, but those two elements are crucial.
In Singletary we trust.
Shaun Hill has one ofthem...
He’s a great decision maker.
According to you, it’s up to the WRs….
by SportsChicken on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Why do people keep saying this?
(Hill)’s a great decision maker.
What is this being based off of? When have you seen him make big plays on his second or third read? When has he checked off safeties to go to the other side of the field?
I think a lot of Hill’s success so far is due to the fact that his coaching staff hasn’t put him into many positions where he HAD to make decisions. “Check the first option – if it isn’t there, throw it away or dump it off.” That’s what he’s done, and that’s what’s made him as effective as he’s been. If you start giving him too many options or too many reads in one play, then I think you’ll see a very different version of Shaun Hill. One that isn’t very good at football.
IMO, his strength is not in “making decisions” but in following orders. This isn’t a bad thing…it just puts more pressure on the coaching staff. It becomes their job to win the games, and Hill just plays the role of executing what’s been called.
Hill
He does seem to be very willing to go to the checkdown receiver/back. It’s part of what’s made him look so much better than O’Sullivan and Smith. Everyone knows O’Sullivan held the ball too long trying to find the deep pass. Smith just took too long to decide whether or not his read was right or if he should move on.
FAIL
2008 Cowboy’s game:
Shaun Hill runs a play-action, as soon as he turns around he sees a man that’s going to be open and throws it to where he’s going where nobody else can get it.
He’s a great decision maker because he can make quicker reads and doesn’t really throw too many INTs (the Rams game being an exception).
by SportsChicken on May 15, 2009 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I would have to pay more attention to his game management abilities.
He doesn’t have Grossman’s arm But I dont hear anyone screwaming for Grossman. He had a bad game against Wash last season but he dug deep and pulledf through.
M. S. #50
dug deep and pulled through..
.. isn’t that the maning of, life , football and everything?
by Josh G and the Shaun Hill band wagon on May 15, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I know it was the meaning of a win
Sure the team banned together but he had a horrible game up until the 4th
M. S. #50
They still won
That’s all that matters
by SportsChicken on May 16, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Bashing Hill?
What I love about this post and others is how quickly people “bash” Hill. Are you kidding me? The guy goes 5-2 (I think) the last seven games and we’re bashing him? He hasn’t even started a full season. In addition, we now have three VERY good receivers: Davis, Morgan, and Crabtree – with Bruce as the elder statesmen teaching the young bucs how to run out patterns. I guess you have a right to bash Hill if he’s stated three years and he stinks… but NOT when the guy hasn’t even gone a full season with a great team like the 49ers… I’m predicting 10-6 with a run at a wildcard spot this upcoming year. I think all the so-called experts that downplay the niners are just doing it because they don’t want to be let down… you watch they are going to surprise EVERYONE!!! :)
Steven
People knock on Hill's physical abilities
I personally don’t care because he still wins games for us, and that’s all that matters.
by SportsChicken on May 16, 2009 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Anyone...
want to trade Phil Yeews for Matt Cain now?
"The voice of the intellect is a soft one, but it does not rest until it has gained a hearing"
by Jeff_Fuller_49 on May 16, 2009 11:43 PM PDT reply actions
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