NFC West Position-by-Position: Quarterbacks
Since things can get a little quiet in the offseason, the rest of the divisional bloggers and I decided on a new weekly feature. We would go position by position and rank them within the division. Additionally, we would provide a write-up on our team's own position heading into the 2009 season. This provides you with some insight into the other teams in the division, which is certainly valuable for awareness of 6 of our opponents.
We start out with the quarterback position, which generated controversy right off the bat. We came up with a consensus ranking and then generated our own grades if we wanted. Just so you guys know, I gave the 49ers a B, but was willing to rank them at the bottom of the division overall. There is certainly some homerism in that, but I don't think it's necessarily the worst grade in the world. I was pondering giving the 49ers a C, but I think the QBs for the 49ers fit the potential system they'll be using. While we may not have a long term answer, I looked at the grades as how the position is set for the upcoming season alone. The rankings went as follows:
1. Arizona Cardinals
2. Seattle Seahawks
3. St. Louis Rams
4. San Francisco 49ers
Personally, I think it all depends on what people think of Marc Bulger, and how healthy Matt Hasselbeck could be. I think until Warner shows otherwise, the Cardinals are the clear-cut #1. However, I don't think there's all that much space between 2, 3 and 4.
Arizona Cardinals
Blogger: cgolden
The Cardinals boasted one of the most prolific passing attacks in 2008 thanks to two great receivers and a QB who stayed in the MVP-talk for part of the season. Kurt Warner returns another year older and he'll attempt to do something that he's never done before, stay healthy for two consecutive seasons. If he can stay relatively healthy, the Cardinals offense will remain among the league's best. His arm still has plenty of zip and his accuracy has few rivals, but if he were to go down for any extended period of time, plenty of questions would be raised.
Matt Leinart has the tools to be a quality starting QB and by all accounts he's matured a great deal over the past season, but he's got to prove it on the field for anyone outside the organization to believe. Still though as backup quarterbacks go, he's got to be considered above average and Brian St. Pierre (3rd QB) is at least a guy who knows Ken Whisenhunt's system very, very well. Grade: A
After the jump we roll through the rest of the NFC West...
Seattle Seahawks
Blogger: John Morgan
The high-range for Seattle is high B, with Matt Hasselbeck regaining his 2007 form and Seneca Wallace retaining some of his 2008 gains. Hasselbeck would again keep drives alive with a quick and decisive read, chew yardage with short passes and put himself at the edge of elite with one of the five best mid-range passes in the NFL. He would sync with possession receiver with benefits TJ Houshmandzadeh, exchanging long protein strands across markers and around befuddled cornerbacks, and build long drives from short completions. Deion Branch would take Beck’s mistakes to the bank and those mistakes would be bankable mistakes, not WWTBAWGS mistakes. Hasselbeck would find a late-career balance between quixotic rollouts ending in game changing interceptions and terrified fetal collapses at the hint of pressure. Maybe most importantly in light of last season and him being 34, Hasselbeck would have the gun. He might not make all the throws but he’d make the throws he needed and not be betrayed by poor zip masquerading as poor decision making. And it would be good. And Matt Hasselbeck would not just be a championship caliber quarterback, but an asset to a championship caliber team.
The low end range for Seattle is D. Below average creeping towards failure. Given Hasselbeck’s age, three year averages and surrounding talent, this is an equal if not more likely possibility. If he wasn’t pimping myoplex or hadn’t been to the Super Bowl, it might be easier to see Hasselbeck closer to what he is: A once very good quarterback that’s probably more Mark Brunell than John Elway. I’m willing to swallow his back is alright for now, but Seattle lacks the line to ensure that, and if his back kicks up again, he might not start, and it might be best for Seattle he doesn’t. Injured Hasselbeck is beyond ineffective, he’s damaging. Hasselbeck never had the best short pass and robbed of his mid-range zip, he becomes a game manager quarterback. He becomes a game manager quarterback in denial. He throws game ending interceptions like he did in weeks 11 and 12.
Seneca Wallace is close to a constant. He’s a helluva backup. His wheels are over-glossed, but his arm is underrated. He has zip, zip on the move and an honest-to-goodness deep pass. He’s not great and more precisely, he’s not a starter. He’s a poor decision maker and can’t shake the habit of staring down receivers. It leads to what looks like drops, but are in fact late passes punished. Mike Holmgren ran a nerfed offense for Wallace, but in it’s protected confines, he looked for maybe the first time like an NFL caliber quarterback. An unsustainably low interception rate and receiver run after the catch inflate his numbers, but even still he had a helluva nice season for a backup.
So top ten potential and a sucky, contention-crippling floor, that’s Seattle’s quarterback situation in a nutshell.
St. Louis Rams
Blogger: VanRam
After a career year in 2006 and a big new contract in the months after, Marc Bulger quickly became a focal point for criticism as the Rams struggled through the last two seasons. Fourth quarter collapses, untimely interceptions, throwing off his toes...Bulger has really struggled and now finds himself in a make or break situation with the Rams new coaching staff/front office. The biggest problem for Bulger has been the players in front of him. Prior to last season, Orlando Pace played in no more than 8 games since the 2005 season. His decline coincided with general neglect for the offensive line, making Bulger the most sacked QB in the league over the last three years. His stats make it look like he's finished, but with an upgraded offensive line he can hopefully regain his confidence and spend a lot less time on his back. It's worked for other QBs: see Warner, Kurt. I'm one of those who thinks that Bulger can rebound, but you can't grade on potential, especially in May.
The backup QB situation has improved for the Rams. Bringing in Kyle Boller to replace Trent Green should help keep the offense moving along should Bulger go down without too much of a hiccup, certainly less so than the oft-concussed Trent Green. Boller's skill set is well-suited to the Rams run-centric offense.
Battling it out for the third QB spot is long-time third QB Brock Berlin and sixth round pick Keith Null, the West Texas A&M passer that surprised more than a few with his selection in the draft. Null looks to be a good fit for the West Coast offense, and the coaches have liked what they've seen from him thus far. The odds are certainly on Null to claim the third spot, but his future probably peaks as a backup.
I'd like to give the Rams QBs an incomplete, but I won't. Grade: C
San Francisco 49ers
Blogger: Fooch
This is one of the toughest positions to grade for the 49ers. Most non-49ers fans would give it a D at best, and even some current 49ers would prefer anything but the current situation. I, on the other hand, am a bit more optimistic. The stable of 49ers QBs includes Shaun Hill, Alex Smith, Nate Davis and Damon Huard. Huard is likely training camp fodder so we'll ignore him for this piece. Smith was anointed the golden boy back in 2005 and has had an up and down career so far. He looked ready to break out under Norv Turner in 2006, but since then has seen his career practically destroyed by numerous injuries. He re-worked his deal so he could stick around and compete with Shaun Hill for the starting job.
Hill is the proverbial people's champ at QB. He lacks what you would call "sound mechanics" and he is a notorious bad practice player. However, when game time arrives, he is out there making plays. He is 7-3 as the 49ers starter and the players seem to rally around him. The 49ers are on their fifth offensive coordinator in as many years, only this one seems more content with a ball control offense that doesn't require a lot of big plays from the QB. This could be right in Shaun Hill's wheelhouse. The 49ers have been at their best and most efficient with him running the show and yet he still has to win the job in training camp.
Nate Davis was drafted as a low risk, high reward QB of the future. The 49ers have time to develop him and so barring calamitous injuries, Davis will do no more than hold a clipboard in 2009. His draft stock has jumped up and down the last couple years so it's hard to assess what he could bring long term. For this year though, he will have no impact.
Consider this grade one for just this year and not considering the future. I am convinced that Shaun Hill can be the short-term answer at QB for the 49ers. He's not the most talented QB in the league by a long stretch, but he just continues to make plays. If he can do enough in training camp to hold down the job, I don't see him losing it this year barring injury. Grade: B
So, am I completely out of mind? My grade was not based on the future and was not in comparison to the rest of the division. It was simply how I think the 49ers QBs are in comparison to the system they'll be playing in. What grade would you give the 49ers QB position?
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98 comments
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Comments
Reality is
The Niners have the worst QB situation by a LONG SHOT compared to the rest of the division.
by Italia1970 on May 15, 2009 8:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
umm Shaun Hill > Marc Bulger
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on May 15, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are smoking Crack ??????
Bulger is a pro bowl caliber QB and has been to the pro bowl. When is the last time Hill was in the pro bowl? Time to take the rose colored glasses off.
by Italia1970 on May 15, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bulger
has no supporting cast. Who will he throw it to? Nate Clements? Marcus Trufant? Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie? Also no D to back him up either.
In Shaun Hill will trust
by iaalexeeff on May 16, 2009 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry, I need to edit your post...
Bulger is was a pro bowl caliber QB and has been to the pro bowl not won more than 5 games over the past two seasons. When is the last time Hill was in the pro bowl won five games? Oh yeah, last season alone, sorry for asking stupid questions. Time to take the rose colored glasses off remember what Hill has done for this team.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on May 16, 2009 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank you professor, well said
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on May 16, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was????
When is the last time Hill was in the playoffs or in the probowl???
Why don’t I hear aything???
by Italia1970 on May 16, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why don’t I hear aything???
probably because it’s pretty hard to hear anything over your know-it-all rambling
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on May 16, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice move
I would avoid a response as well.
The facts speak for themselves and we both know the answer is NEVER, making your arguement mute.
by Italia1970 on May 17, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
This is the very last time I reply to you. You are completely ignoring every relevant factual post and criticizing others for doing the same. I am going to relegate you to the list of immature and ego-centric, as you only seem to have room in your head for your own opinion and any contradiction is blasphemy.
Please, in the future, refrain from repeating the same useless information in the vain hope that it will penetrate beyond logic and intuition into some uncharted territory. You are not 12 years old, and if you are, I am sorry. Stop ignoring fact and telling people to do the same.
by Cruithear on May 17, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would avoid a response as well.
i’m not avoiding a response, I just choose not to argue back and forth with you as you obviously think Marc Bulger is a better QB then Shaun Hill, whereas I think Shaun Hill is the better of the two. It’s your opinion and I honestly don’t care, we will see who the better QB is at the end of the season.
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on May 17, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing this part...
First, Bulger started in 27 games, whereas Hill only started 10. Right there, you failed at what you were trying to accomplish.
If you’re gonna go back over those 2 season, at least freakin’ take account on how many games these guys have played as starters.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 17, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing
The fact that the DVOA statistics are considered accurate over 100 passes, which Hill had last year. There is a reason I added the asterisk for the year previous.
Oh, and I may have been a bit abrasive Italia, just got a bit overexcited. My apologies.
by Cruithear on May 17, 2009 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO!! ....
You’re using that small a sample size to make your argument? Bwah!! That’s pure statistical Cherry Picking right there. It does nothing to substantiate where both QBs are head to head, because using that criteria, freakin’ Dan Orslovsky rates higher than Hill. Do you know how many games Orslovsky started last season? 7. 7 freakin’ games. Just how many games did Orslovsky win? Zero. Did you see where Hill is on that list? He just made the cut from the bottom tier of QBs, the ones that include Culppepper and Griese, guys who are the downsides of their careers (to put it mildly), but still made at least one Pro-Bowl, like Bulger. You know how Hill can have a shot at making a Pro-Bowl?
By playing at least 16 freakin’ games in a season.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 17, 2009 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um
Are you saying that Hill is good or bad? I’m confused.
Either way, the “sample size” issue boils down to this: Orlovsky started “7.7” games, sure… but he had 273 pass attempts in that time. 273 pass attempts is not a terribly small sample size.
In addition, the DVOA is (as in the name) defense adjusted, which means he was up against stronger Ds than Hill.
I already said that DVOA does not predict the future, but it DOES reflect past performance and give us an idea of where players were in relation to one another… Hill was average, and better than Bulger. These statistical measurements are highly regarded in the community (the Pro Football statistics community, which is populated by professional statisticians), and are not randomly generated. They are not biased, and they don’t care if Bulger has been to a Pro Bowl.
In reading your post again, I really don’t understand the point that you were trying to make. That the DVOA is inaccurate, or is somehow flawed in that it doesn’t place Shaun Hill above Orlovsky? Hill did underperform wildly at times, and that
alone is reason to worry about his future performance… consistency is just as important as being able to put up elite stats in spurts.
by Cruithear on May 17, 2009 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You even went as low...
As to put up 2007.
Here is the pass attempts between those 2 QBs:
Bulger – 378
Hill – 79
Holy crap. That’s just flat out bad. To the point where you even had to point out that he couldn’t be rated in the upper echelon due to the paucity of attempts.
This is flat out reaching, to the point of where you seem to not know what the heck you are talking about. DVOA and Football Outsiders only measure situations. It value per play. I mean, if this is all you got, then you should stop right here. Because, figure this:
Bulger has started in more games in the past 2 years than Hill has…
More snaps mean more. That’s it. More. Which means more plays. The ratings below 100 are scrub stats. The true measure that brings a Peyton Manning into the picture is based on a minimum of 100, not just 100 alone. I mean, it’s like this…
Hill has faced less defenses in 2 years than Bulger has.
Hill has taken 29 sacks in his entire NFL career. Bulger took 38 in 2008 alone.
Bulger in his career has taken over 240.
See, a QB’s stats can increase or decrease in any situation, predicated on how many snaps he takes. Hill has taken less snaps the Bulger in 2 years. Why? Because he is a backup QB. Do you know how many snaps he took his first year in the League? One. Just one snap. That’s it. One. A kneel down to boot. Bulger BTW has started 7 games his first year in the NFL.
So you’re basing a small sample size in 2 years alone, just by reading FO stat line. But hey, give Hill 17 more starts on that Ram team, and get back to me.
Get this: just by what you are trying to BS people here with, Seneca Wallace is a better QB than Hill is. So really, SEA is in a better QB situation than SF is. I mean, FO shows it, so it must be true, right?
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 18, 2009 12:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To add...
Martz QBs get killed, yet Bulger did great under his wide open attack. Singletary had to scale down Martz. Give Hill one full year with Martz as HC, and get back to me.
Oh wait, he couldn’t get past pre-season.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 18, 2009 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
I’m not comparing old Bulger to Hill… I am comparing new Bulger to Hill. Bulger was a great QB. He is no longer such.
Hill is not a Pro Bowl QB, and he might never be. He is serviceable, and is better now than Bulger who is obviously past his prime.
If you think that I have been trying to argue that Hill is a better QB than Bulger once was, I am not. I am merely static the case (with statistical evidence, which backs me up) that Hill is currently a better choice than Bulger.
by Cruithear on May 18, 2009 6:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
You completely ignored the bit in the stats where I flat out state that he had fewer than 100 snaps. In fact, I mentioned that in a previous post responding to you a couple of steps up!
Congratulations, you just wasted time complaining about a year that I de-emphasized.
That aside, I have not tried to BS anybody here with anything. On this site, we have used the stats from Football Outsiders to make several predictions and comparisons, some of which included, wait for it, Shaun Hill.
Get this: Seneca Wallace is a better QB than Hill is. Even by standard stats, Wallace threw 11 TDs to 3 INTs, and was not as prone to coughing up the rock. SEA is in a better QB situation than SF is, with the exception of Hasselbeck who was about as good as JTO last year. (I’m not going to get into a discussion on Hasselbeck, as that is for another day). If Hill can become more consistent this year I might think otherwise, but I really feel like he is little more than average at this point unless he can become more consistent (and with a total sample size of over 400 passes he has yet to prove himself more than that).
If you cannot admit to yourself that Bulger is on the downside of his career and that he is no longer a prime or even average NFL quarterback, that is your prerogative. Good luck trying to convince others.
by Cruithear on May 18, 2009 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FO is what it is...
And to bring in 2007 using it just to try and prove a point here is whack. I’ve read FO way before I logged into this site. Florida Danny uses their methods to bring in his own analysis. You’re just trying to fit it into an argument. So don’t bring in the “we use FO here” to try to make it look legit. First of all, Hill only played 3 games in 2007, against teams that have packed it in. Bringing that into this conversation, then trying to deflect it is hogwash. No one needs to go to FO to qualify it. It’s like saying one QB is better as a whole one year because he played well in 2 games, as opposed to a player that has played 12.
You’re really using those stats without considering the teams they play on. Every team outside of AZ in the NFCW are in transition. SEA has had numerous injuries, STL has had numerous injuries to go along with a firing of an HC during the season, and we all know SF’s situation. Hasslebeck was injured last season. Bulger is beat up. Those things happen when you play a lot of snaps. The RaMs have also had changes at OC. Get this: this year, I believe they are going to a WCO based scheme, and emphasize the run game and defense. Why? Maybe because they are trying to take less heat off of their QB who has been beat up, because, and this is what you miss: Bulger, and Hasslebeck, are both proven commodities who have played at a high level. Hill isn’t. That’s why the QB situation in SF is not a good one, and almost every publication that you read says that.
schelko made a good point.: if Bulger was on this team, he would be the clear cut starter. Bulger is shot, but he is still better than Hill. Why? Because he has shown he can play at a high level. Hill has played decent in the 10 games he has played as a starter. But, Hill has never been a starter from the season opening game further.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 18, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
Last time I’m going to say this, maybe it will penetrate this time: I didn’t put a lot of weight on the 2007 stats.
I am awestruck at just how difficult it is to get that point across to you.
by Cruithear on May 18, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Facts are facts"....
And they are right beneath this post… Bulger has been one of the worst NFL QBs for two consecutive years.
Hey, you posted these “facts”. I didn’t.
2007:
Marc Bulger: -142 DYAR, ranking 42nd in the league.
-16.5% DVOA, ranking 40th in the league.
Shaun Hill: 101 DYAR, ranking ~27th in the league*.
6.0% DOVA, ranking ~21st in the league*.
Hill played less than 3 full games, yet you had to post this? That’s pure Cherry Picking right there. Maybe you should have clarified how many games both those QBs played in that season, and also weigh in how many games they played in last season.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 18, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Facts are fact
Fact is Bulger has proven he can put up big numbers and take a team to the playoff.
When is the last time Hill did either of these???
Try NEVER. Only a fool would argue with those facts.
When Hill is doing those things then you can say he’s better-not until then.
by Italia1970 on May 16, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Facts are fact
And they are right beneath this post… Bulger has been one of the worst NFL QBs for two consecutive years.
by Cruithear on May 16, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In fairness here...
Bulger has taken a lot of hits and sacks during his Ram career. His O-line is pretty darn bad, and the Ram’s defense is shoddy.
Even so, Hill looked like crap against it, almost getting pulled too.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 16, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
It’s a shame that supposedly knowledgable fans don’t see that situation for what it is without having to put it right in their face.
by Italia1970 on May 17, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
2008:
Marc Bulger: -258 DYAR, ranking 38th in the league.
-19.8% DVOA, ranking 36th in the league.
Shaun Hill: 180 DYAR, ranking 28th in the league.
-2.3% DOVA, ranking 28th in the league.
2007:
Marc Bulger: -142 DYAR, ranking 42nd in the league.
-16.5% DVOA, ranking 40th in the league.
Shaun Hill: 101 DYAR, ranking ~27th in the league*.
6.0% DOVA, ranking ~21st in the league*.
- Hill had fewer than 100 passes and could not be ranked; his stats place him around the listed rank in terms of comparison.
- DYAR is Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement
DVOA is Defense-adjusted Value Over Average
by Cruithear on May 16, 2009 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeh ok buddy
you have no idea what you are talking about
by randolphforpresident on May 15, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No idea???
Warner former MVP, pro bowler and superbowl champ former pro bowler
Bulger
Hasslebeck- former pro bowler and took his team to the superbowl
Hill-no such credentials of any sort
Now who is clueless???
by Italia1970 on May 15, 2009 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'll give you hasselbeck and warner
bulger sucks.
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on May 15, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and fyi
i voted for the cards.
cards
hawks(if hasselbeck stays healthy)
hill
bulger
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on May 15, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seattle
is not much better. maybe even worse.
by save10 on May 15, 2009 8:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Best analysis was by....
FOOCH!
You have some nice writing skills dude.
You really sold the 49ers there, good job.
by chikmagnet_565 on May 15, 2009 8:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Luv em BUT....
While I really liek our chances this year I think our Shaun Hill would make us a solid C. He fits what we need but doe snot bring anything extra to the table to bring the system to the next level. While saying that I don;t mean to say he takes anything away either. He does what needs to be done and will not lose a game for us. But he won’t win one either.
Ideally a C should be enough with our system to get where we need to be but that does not make Shaun a B nor does it make Alex or Nate any better…yet.
by 9erEast on May 15, 2009 9:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I Agree with Fooch
Hill is fine. Lots of QBs made it to the Super Bowl that weren’t any better the Hill and were at the helm all year for that team. Everyone keeps forcusing on the offense when looking for the source of our problems. Well, you can blame 5 OCs for some of it. Or not creating an offense that aligned the strengths (and weaknesses) of our QB, as many good coaches try to do. But the problems with the 49ers lie in the defense. Pass rush, and safety. Fix those before the season starts by seeing progress and no injuries from Goldson or Smith or Williams at safety, or picking up a good veteran, and wither seeing Lawson become a monster (which I personally don’t see) or picking up a big time PR like LaBoy at least, or Peppers if the deal isn’t too rich, and THEN we’ll be making progress towards the play offs. And if we do make the D better and make the playoffs, I bet you will all give Shuan Hill a B then! Maybe even, dare I say it, an A.
by Since79 on May 15, 2009 9:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
QB and offense
Focusing on your offense comment for a moment, given what we know at this point do you see the offense being aligned to the 49ers strengths? I realize Raye hasn’t called a play yet, but all things considered, what do you think at this point?
by Fooch on May 15, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a big time PR like LaBoy
LaBoy’s a big time pass rusher? Really? The guy who was cut by Arizona one year after signing a contract that gave him $7M in guarantees? That’s a pretty big check for a team to eat if he was a “big time” pass rusher.
Also, according to Rotoworld, LaBoy is likely to have surgery on one of his ankles, thus making him unsignable for a yet to be determined amount of time.
It’s pretty much pointless to say much else, as you’re pretty much entrenched in you thought that the defense sucks, not realizing that the defense was actually pretty solid last year. If the offense can control the clock even further this year (which is should if you think the offense is as okay as you think it is), the defense will be on the field less, thus already improving it.
by sfgfan on May 15, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laboy
As I recall, he expects to be back by training camp. We had a discussion late last month about LaBoy when he was cut.
It sounded like he was cut for injury issues, as opposed to talent issues. That still seems like a hefty price for a guy who could show some real talent when healthy.
by Fooch on May 15, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cut for injury issues?
So if the Cardinals thought his injuries were so severe that they were willing to eat the remaining $4M to $5M in guarantees without any return, what makes him so attractive? It’s not like Arizona is teeming with pass rushers where they could give away one. Basically, the Cardinals could have used him when he was healthy. Cutting him one year into a pretty long deal would seem to imply that it was more than just the injury OR the injury is more severe than LaBoy and his agent are letting on.
by sfgfan on May 15, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaBoy
will most likely miss the 2009 season
by AJ BirdWatcher on May 16, 2009 5:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better than we think..
Can’t dislike Hill for his record.. His teammates like him and trust him. But, if you don’t like his body language, or he is not a vocal leader, that shouldn’t get him a C. He’s been watching, studying and learning football for years and I take that over a raw talent out of college anytime.
Secondly, Jury is still out on Smith. He is only 25 and is NFL matured. If he kicks in, wouldn’t that be a pleasant surprise.
Of all the NFC west teams, I am glad I’m a Niner fan this year.
by Niner Power on May 15, 2009 9:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Niners QB's
I would have to say that the grade is somewhat fair…I would have even gone as low as a C. The Niners are going to have to wait and see just how well Hill will do in the new system before we can say he’s not the “long term” answer.
Smith is also in the same boat…in fact Smith’s boat is taking on water and starting to sink a bit. He’s going to have to learn a WHOLE new system…again and then show signs of improvement in his shoulder before we can say he’s our “long term” answer…or not
Davis…clipboard carrier.
Huard…ONLY IF WE LOSE HILL AND SMITH…then we can start looking for another starting QB.
I like our chances with either QB (Hill or Smith) in Raye’s system and only training camp and the remaining OTA’s are going to show us who we are going to be standing behind in our run for the play-offs.
Best Wishes and Dream Always Henri
by theactor on May 15, 2009 9:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
'Even gone as low as a C'?
I find it hysterical that it wasn’t a surefire D, if not F. When your team is having open competition for the starting QB spot, it isn’t a B no matter how you put it.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on May 17, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the path to hell is paved with good intentions
B? Really?
by 49ersCAN on May 15, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Best QBs
Hasselbeck and Wallace
Best QB
Kurt Warner
Shaun Hill maybe the worst starter in the division in Sept, but whether he emerges as one of the upper tier QBs is yet to be seen.
by supraman on May 15, 2009 11:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
B is to high
Sometimes just a C will make you happpy
by bignerd on May 15, 2009 11:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you understand....
Fooch graded the 49ers based on how well the QBs fit their respective Offenses.
And Shaun Hill fits perfectly in Jimmy Rayes offense.
by chikmagnet_565 on May 15, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
So expectations are so low that by default our QB’s get a B? Really, that’s the excuse I read.
Shaun Hill/Alex Smith are nothing better than C level QB on a friendly scale until they can produce some evidence that proves otherwise. B level QB situation where you have a guy that is a legit starter but not a poster boy the league. Matt Hasselbeck is a B level QB when healthy and neither Shaun Hill or Alex Smith can hold his jock strap.
That’s was the ultimate, denial, homer grade.
by bignerd on May 15, 2009 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
grade
Certainly homerism in the grade. At the same time, I’m not comparing the 49ers QBs to the rest of the division in the grade. Rather, I think all things considered at this point, the grade is based in part on what I could think go down over the course of the season.
by Fooch on May 15, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only person you can really grade is Hill...
Smith hasn’t played a meaningful snap in ages (and he didn’t look good last pre-season, albeit he still might have been hurt), and wasn’t anywhere near the grade of a lot of QB’s in the West when he was healthy. Hill is still a backup. He has never been the starter with a team from the first regular season game onward. Hill is a C grade QB playing in a crappy division, but he hasn’t played a full 16 like the other starting QB’s had.
Homerism can’t hide that these guys are more of a question mark than legitimate.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 15, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You reall don't understand
I’ll take another shot at trying to explain:
Does Shaun Hill fit Jimmy Raye’s system? (yes)
Is Shaun Hill in the right offense? (yes)
So our QB “SITUATION” isn’t so bad.
It’s not like we are running a certain type of offense that our QBs don’t fit in.
Of course it should be upgraded, but at the moment there is really no way for us to do so.
So, quit complaining…the QB situation is as good as it can be right now…..there is nothing we can do.
by chikmagnet_565 on May 15, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
darn it
The title was supposed to be:
“you REALLY don’t understand”
sorry about that.
by chikmagnet_565 on May 15, 2009 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explain to us Raye's offense..
From a Historical perspective.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 15, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
raye offense
Not to put word’s in chikmagnet’s mouth, but just a quick thought: Does he mean the idea of the ball control offense? Maybe the idea that an offense not predicated on the big play goes towards the strengths of a QB like Hill. Again, just my own thought on his comment.
by Fooch on May 15, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's what I mean...
Nobody really knows how the offense will look this season. So it’s hard to project on how both Hill and Smith will do in it. I would think that Hill’s numbers in 8 games would not be a good as they were with Martz. Martz squeezes a lot out of a QB. The offense will definitely take a dip in passing, but then again, who really knows what the offense will look like, other than the possibility of being slightly worse in the passing game.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 15, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, you wouldn’t apply this jaded scale to any other team. I’ll wait for the RB analysis and you guys can give the Seahawks an A+ while sticking Frank Gore with C+ because Julius Jones isn’t asked to run much.
by bignerd on May 15, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Shaun Hill fit Jimmy Raye’s system? (yes)
Is Shaun Hill in the right offense? (yes)
Dude, we don’t even know what Jimmy Raye’s offense is yet. Assuming that Hill is a perfect fit for an offense that’s still in the early planning stages is just dumb.
by shlecko on May 16, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, my. I forgot Jimmy Raye was the 49ers offensive coordinator.
My condolences :(
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on May 17, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marc Bulger
Is absolute garbage, no question the Rams have the worse QB situation. And this year who is Bulger throwing too, but its a moot point because he will probably be hurt by week 6
by pbra17 on May 15, 2009 1:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How do the 49ers get 82 votes?
I mean really, even factoring in homers, how can you honestly say they are in a better position than the Cardinals? There’s a good chance Matt Leinart is a better QB than all four of ours.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on May 15, 2009 2:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's the optimists, they're everywhere
Hill > Leinart
Smith < Leinart
Huard > Leinart
Davis ~ Leinart
by supraman on May 15, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
Smith = Leinart
I fail to see how Leinart is better than Smith.
by chikmagnet_565 on May 15, 2009 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will not explain it anymore.
So, if you have a reason why Smith is better then Leinart please share.. yet when you do your research and you’re honest to yourself, the truth will prevail.
by supraman on May 15, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a reason
Smith was at least good enough to take the field. The one time Matt took the field Denny had crown the Bears asses.
Lets get real, as bad as Smith has failed expectations he’s still accomplished much more in the NFL than Leinart or Brady Quinn. Of course both these guys could still go onto to better careers but if they weren’t college hyped products from USC or Norte Dame than you wouldn’t know them from John Beck.
by bignerd on May 15, 2009 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You realize
The 49ers were trailing 41-0 to the Bears that same year right?
by supraman on May 15, 2009 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What Smith has accomplished...
Is being at the helm of one of the worst offenses in 49er history. I don’t think Rattay would have accomplished that.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 15, 2009 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2007 first game of season
Smith and Leinart starting. We won at the end of the game. I think Smith threw a td to battle to win the game. We had Darrell Jackson and Arnaz Battle as 1 and 2 WR. When they had Fitz and Boldin. The 2007 9ers beat leinart. Smith hasn’t looked that good but if Leinart was here he would be worst off.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?season=2007&week=REG1&game_id=29210
In Shaun Hill will trust
by iaalexeeff on May 16, 2009 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hill Vs. Bulger, 2008...
Bulger : 19-36, 1 int, 1 td.
Hill : 18-34, 3 int, 2 tds.
Rams had the 31st ranked defense last season.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 16, 2009 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To add...
First game:
Bulger: 34-53, 1td, 2 int.
Hill, 15-20, 2td, 0int.
But:
Bulger : 34-53 attempts.
Hill: 15-20 attempts.
For those who compare Bulger to Hill, just get this:
Bulger: 440 pass attempts in 15 games.
Hill: 288 in 9 games.
Give Hill a full season, and get back to me.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 16, 2009 1:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see any reason for any polls...
You could put up a “Is Hill a HOF QB?” poll, and the poll would have him in Canton in a landslide.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 15, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
/facepalm
The 49ers with a B grade for the QB position? in 2009? Seriously?
Even if the planets align and everything goes right…even if everyone maxes out their potential and we have the best season possible with the squad we’ve got…we’d only get a C performance from Hill/Smith. Our quarterbacks are average at best, and isn’t that the very definition of the grade?
Look, I understand why you’d want to be optimistic…but there’s a big difference between digging up reasons to have high hopes and being optimistic just for the sake of being optimistic. And really, I see no solid arguments coming from the people who (for some ungodly reason) voted in this poll that the 49ers are in a better position with their QBs than the Cardinals – or any team in our division, for that matter. It just looks like a bunch of guys blindfolding themselves to the rest of the league and crossing their arms, pouting in front of their “Hang in there!” kitten posters, reciting the words “everything will be fine, Singletary will make the bad times go away” over and over in an attempt to drown out any rational conversation about team comparisons.
Or something. Maybe that’s a little dramatic.
Inspecting the rosters and future plans of other NFL teams, especially teams in your division, does not make you any less of a 49er fan. So maybe it’s time to chill out with the “we’re in a perfect position to make a run at the super bowl” talk without even considering the teams that we’ll have to play in order to get there.
P.S. – Marc Bulger is garbage. That said, it’s worthy of noting that he’d be the unquestioned starter, were he on our team.
by shlecko on May 15, 2009 3:19 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Here's the thing...
Shaun Hill is truly a conundrum. On one hand, we see performances like what we see in limited practices, we see limited arm strength in games, and we see some things that just make us scratch our heads. On the other hand, we have a player that is 7-3 at the helm of our offense, inspires our players to play harder, and doesn’t have the worst TD-INT ratio.
While I agree with you that the Niners have the most questionable QB situation, it is not a bad situation. Hill has done well with our team, Smith has the tools but has not taken off, and our future with Davis looks promising.
There’s a book out there called…

You can shape any argument any way by selectively choosing what you use in your discussion. Anyone on this site can argue anywhere between a D and a B for our QB situation, with valid reasons to back it up. It will take until week 7 to realllly find out what grade is the correct one.
(shlecko, I was using you in the general sense, not directing this at you specifically)
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on May 16, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
I want to read that book!
On the other hand, the stats at Football Outsiders are fairly terrific in comparing PAST performances (they make non claim to being able to predict the future… that is all on us). In the past, Hill has been a truly average quarterback with a DVOA hovering +- 6% over the past two years. 6% isn’t a big difference when compared to the likes of, say, Kurt Warner who had a DVOA of 22.4% and a DYAR of 1405 yards.
In terms of comparison, Hill had a similar DVOA to Favre last year (Favre clocked in at -2.3%), and their performances were both merely average.
by Cruithear on May 16, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one gets a grade before he takes the class
except in these preseason thingies.
I can remember Bulger looking like Superman a few years ago, but that was when O. Pace and the others were actually blocking for him and he had talent around him. It’s amazing how a little less time in the pocket can make a QB look really crappy.
The way I see it, Bulger isn’t going to get the blocking he needs this year, which will leave him prone on astroturf for much of the season, a hard place to make a completion. Hasselbeck is good when healthy. ‘Nuff said there. Warner is by far the best QB in the division, but I wouldn’t bet on the Cards if Kurt goes down in a heap. And he’s getting a little gray for the game. Leinart is not the answer down there in the desert.
Hill is perfectly fine. If it was any other team than the Niners, who’d complain about a starting QB with comparable stats to the new guy in Chicago and a .700 winning percentage on a team that’s been so bad for so long? As someone up the thread said, a great defense can make a quarterback look really good. And a good ball control offense can make it a lot easier to be a good defense. I think Fooch is right that if the offense does a good job controlling the clock that by December Howie Long will know his name.
by Bob On The Coast on May 15, 2009 5:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well....
As someone up the thread said, a great defense can make a quarterback look really good. And a good ball control offense can make it a lot easier to be a good defense. I think Fooch is right that if the offense does a good job controlling the clock that by December Howie Long will know his name.
This can be said for a lot of teams in the NFL, including the NFCW teams.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 15, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Bulger isn’t that bad. But the rams problem is they can’t really help him. If he was on the Ravens the bills he would probably be fine. But, he isn’t. He’ll just get thrown around like a ragdoll. I kinda feel bad for him. He isn’t a bad guy, but he is on a bad team.
In Shaun Hill will trust
by iaalexeeff on May 16, 2009 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my god
You 9ers fans are to much man, I love you guys.
by SPENCEMAN on May 15, 2009 6:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
love you too man
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on May 15, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always great to snoop another teams board
You’ve got to be kidding me. This team is in shambles at QB, and has been since before Rocky Bernard crushed Alex Smith’s shoulder into the core of the earth. That belly-flop, by the way… was perhaps the greatest sack I’ve ever witnessed in my life. If "F" [force] = "M" [mass] x "V2" [velocity squared] then all 300+ lbs. of Rocky Bernard running at you virtually unblocked like a rabid rhinoceros = ABSOLUTE DOOM!!!!
Shaun who?
Really, now… a "B"?
We will have our revenge. Fhysical revenge.
by bignerd on May 17, 2009 12:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
man this Seahawks rivalry seems to be getting
more fierce every year, I love it. They won’t be saying Shaun who? for long.
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
by 49erLou on May 17, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL at Matt Hasselback and TJ Houshmandzeh exchanging long protein strands across teh field
by JoeO on May 17, 2009 8:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Shaun Hill and Alex Smith would maybe make the third string on every other team in the division.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on May 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments
First off, if you’d prefer Seneca Wallace as your backup, you’re more than welcome to keep him. As far as the Rams, maybe you should do research before commenting. I’ll take Hill over Kyle Boller (Rams primary backup) and quite possible over Marc Bulger given his performances the last couple years.
by Fooch on May 17, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure Kyle Boller would have just as much a place in this QB competition as Hill and Smith.
To be honest, I think he could even be running away with it.
Really, the guys we have aren’t all that good.
by shlecko on May 17, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
running away with it?
Sorry, but I don’t there’s any way you could convince me of that.
by Fooch on May 17, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think Shaun Hill is that much better?
On what do you base this belief?
And what makes you think NFL coaches would agree with you?
by shlecko on May 17, 2009 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kyle Boller
I don’t know if Hill is necessarily that much better. But given Boller’s NFL career to date, and considering Kyle Boller is a Tedford product I’m not feeling his future prospects.
by Fooch on May 17, 2009 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boller has had way more snaps...
Than Hill has. I don’t know why Hill’s experience in the League overall escapes this conversation here. Just don’t know why.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on May 17, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That may have to do with the fact that Hill obviously wasn't deemed good enough to stick on a team.
Much less start.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on May 18, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Chad Pennington and Aaron Rodgers are so terrible, am I right?
Boller isn’t great by any means, but neither are Alex Smith or Shaun Hill.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on May 18, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace v. Hill (backing up Hasselbeck)
I’d take Hill so Wallace could be a WR.
by thebyron on May 18, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seneca Wallace is not a WR and his performance last season (13 TDs, 3 INTs) despite playing with a practically
second-team offense proved that. He could be competing in San Francisco.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on May 18, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace
I agree that he’d be in the mix in SF’s QB competition, and he’s a solid backup QB for Matt. Honestly though, I get more excited when he comes in as a wideout than I do when he’s under center. I loved Holmgren occasionally lining him up as a WR….if Teel could take over as the 2nd stringer and we could use Seneca as a WR I’d be very excited. It won’t happen, I know, but it’s a fun thought.
by thebyron on May 18, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps over Boller, sure.
Bulger, not a chance. He’s a once very good QB who I’d rather wage on to return somewhere close to his old form than Hill or Smith ever increasing their performance that much.
Warner is obviously the best QB in the division and the Cardinals have somewhat of a great QB prospect backup in Leinart.
Hasselbeck is still good, though-injury prone, and Wallace is a more than adequate backup.
So for the most part, the prognosis isn’t that good for the 49ers QBs. Although I do like Nate Davis and am glad he was drafted on a team which may give him the chance to play within 5 years.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on May 18, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't honestly say higher than a C
Hill has much much more to prove before the situation can be graded out as above average.
by Brendan Scolari on Jun 8, 2009 10:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh but by the way
I really liked the article, its very interesting to hear the perspectives around the NFC West.
by Brendan Scolari on Jun 8, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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