Raye's Offense
by goatfather on May 19, 2009 5:45 PM PDT
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PrintSo do we know what Rayes offense will look like? Well, if it is true that it closely resembles Turner's offense, which in turn is based on the Coryell offense, then it may have some consequences at QB position.
Notice the strange paradoxical continuity; We get back to the Turner style and at the same time keep a bit of last years philosophy via Martz?!
Check out this link.
http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-coryell-offense.html
Also Notice:
The Coryell offense has the following characteristics:
- It is a "stretch-the-field vertically" offense, predicated on the complementary effects of throwing deep and running the football
- The receivers often run intermediate-to-long routes
- The QB takes more 5- and 7-step drops
- It emphasizes maximum pass protection, to protect the QB until the receivers get open downfield
- It is committed to the power running game. The running game opens up opportunities for big downfield completions, and vice versa. Mike Martz, in an interview with Dr. Z of CNN/SI said:
That's another thing that's critical to the system. Power running. You've got to be able to run the ball when you go to a three-wide receiver set, and you've got to run with power. By that I mean behind zone blocking, which is a big departure from the San Francisco system. Theirs was man-blocking, with a lot of cut-blocks and misdirection. Ours is straight power. Not many people realize this, but if we hadn't have gotten Marshall we were prepared to go with another excellent zone-blocking runner, Robert Holcombe. It takes a certain type, a guy who can run with power, who's good at picking his way through. Stephen Davis is doing that in Washington now, and that's a big reason why their offense is so good...The good thing about zone-block running is that you can keep pounding away. You don't have the negative yardage plays.
What might this mean for our QB situation?
Who best fits this job desription?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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I dont know.
I think its a bit 50/50 which is maybe why Raye seems to want to make a later decision than was previously implied by singletary.
We already know Alex fits this type of offense, the play action, moving the pocket, bootlegs.
Sean however has that consistency element. Although if he goes out there this season and throws some up for grabs ducks for TO’s we may see Smith out there.
A few more things.
If you watch the post OTA interviews you hear the players talking about these new aspects of the offense. Gore is talking about picking a spot and hitting it. Your hear the Wideouts talking about knowing the direction of that the line will be blocking.
And then you hear about the deep balls to Morgan. It will be interesting to see what happens when Bruce and Crabs are out there.
Its really cool to read through the description and variations of the offense on Wiki. Its cool because it really suits our personnel.
Raye
I think it’s extremely interesting that he wants the players to not only know what their assignments are on a given play, but to also understand WHY those are their assignments.
agree
One of the links somewhere mentioned how the playbook was thicker than Martz’s, but that’s because it includes explanations of how the player fits into the whole scheme of a play. I can’t find it now but I think Dominique Zeigler mentioned how he was now realizing the role of the offensive line more specifically among other things.
by David Fucillo on May 20, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
OTA interviews
I think thats where I heard it from the wideouts. I think he was talking about the angle blocking of the O-Line
Great Post
I’m a little nervous about this offense myself. I hope Raye realizes this is 2009. I just hope Gore and Coffee (or whoever) can get enough of the load to make the QB’s job easier. If it doesn’t, I’m sure we’ll do what we do best and get ANOTHER coordinator next year. I pray that doesn’t happen, though.
New OC next year? Highly unlikely.
Raye was brought in specifically so that there would be continuity down the road and so that Gore (and Coffee) would carry the load. What makes you nervous about the offense? The 5-to-7 step drops? It’s one thing if you have long drops with extra men in for protection (as is characteristic in this offense) and another if you’re going with the long drops in 4 and 5-wide sets (as in Martz’ offense).
What do you mean by this:
I hope Raye realizes this is 2009.
In Singletary we trust.
We have the speed and talent to stretch the field.
The added protection will be huge this year. That alone may reverse the sack trend.
What happened to the WC offense??
This post made me realize and wonder why the niners keep straying away from the West Coast offense for so long. Since they implemented a non WC offensive coordinator or coach (Erickson, Nolan) the offense has struggled. Why not go back to that approach, it only helped the team win 5 super bowls. Now we are implementing a Raider type offense… wow… why not toss a slant over the middle and let the YAC yards fly. We do not have the QB to throw deep with accuracy, since I believe their approach will be selling the play action. That’s why is so important for this offense to get the running game established… Everywhere this offense has gone play action is key. That’s how the cowgals in the 90s were so productive but we do not have that type of QB. We have a Montana and Young type of QBs, short and medium range accuracy able to move in the pocket. Throw curls, outs, slants, screens… let the WRs do their job.
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
WCO
It may be possible that there aren’t very many available assistants with a strong grasp of the WCO. When Nolan first came here, McCarthy was brought in to bring in the WCO. After he left and the 49ers brought in Turner, they have pretty much gone with some Coryell-variant. I may be mistaken, but I don’t recall there being too many young assistants switching teams and implementing the WCO. If that is correct, it may be a dying “art.”
that's a shame...
Doesn’t philly run the WCO? Since Reid runs the O it would be hard to spread the knowledge…
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Off the top my head
Now that Holgrem is retired, Gruden is gone that makes Andy Reid the last coach left really using the system as a staple. Reid does run a pretty pure version of the WCO. Than again he has all right pieces in Westbrook, McNabb, DeSean and now Maclin. Without Westbrook and McNabb special talents he could not run it. He has diverted from big receivers to smaller, open field runners to acquire the YAC.
Jim Mora Jr still runs the WCO, doesn't he?
And he took over for Holmgren – so I’d think Seattle would look to keep that continuity going.
Mora, Jr
Mora himself doesn’t run the offense, and it’ll definitely be interesting to see how well the offensive coordinator will run the offense without Holmgren looking over his shoulder. All the league needs is a couple of assistants such as QB coaches and offensive coordinators still grasping the WCO and having a very strong understanding of it. As it stands right now, though, the only people who seem to have a strong enough understanding of it to actually implement it on a new team would be the old guys like Holmgren and Reid.
Mora himself doesn’t run the offense
Well, no. Not exactly, anyway.
But many of the teams he has coached on have employed it. When he was a candidate for the 49ers HC spot, he had plans of retaining the WCO-style offense that Mariucci had in place. It was his idea to bring the WCO to Atlanta when he took the job there, and it was no coincidence that he was selected as Holmgren’s assistant head coach in Seattle last year. The fact Greg Knapp, another WCO disciple, was named his Offensive coordinator would seem suggest that there won’t be a massive system overhaul.
Thus, it’s fair to assume that the West Coast Offense will still be in place in Seattle.
Oh.
I have little doubt the WCO will stay in Seattle, especially with Hasselbeck still the QB. I think the original idea in this stretch of comments is why the 49ers (or other teams) aren’t switching to the WCO more. I suggested it may be because there aren’t many disciples of the WCO tree that understand it well enough to implement the system from scratch.
It'd be interesting...
… to see what happens to Reids offensive assistants (QB coach, particularly), when he’s ready to step down or gets fired.
What happened? Tony Dungy and Tampa-2 Defense
I can answer the same question about the Power-I offense too.
I don't like this.
We have the personnel for a WCO (Crabtree = YAC, Hill = Ball control/accurate, Gore = receiving back) but we are running the opposite?
exactly my point
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Raye is Flexible
Jimmy Raye does not favor an offense with deep throws and a 7-step drop. Actually, Jimmy specializes in the play-action pass and short crossing patterns, both ideal for Shaun Hill. Raye develops his system to focus on the talents of his players, unlike Martz who brings in his system and says “learn it”, whether or not it’s suitable for his players’ abilities. Jimmy will flourish with the Niners. He’s a wise man.
I also noticed that Michael Robinson was on the receiving end of a 50-yard pass play from Shaun HIll. Raye will use Robinson a lot as a receiver out of the backfield this season as MRob has great hands and once he finds open space is tough to bring down.
Kezarvet
hoping you're right...
I’ll cross my fingers you’re right
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
utilizing talent
yeah, IF I’m excited about this offense, it’s about the fact that Raye says he will tailor the system to the players. And one person I’m excited to see in it is (/ducks flying tomato) Vernon Davis (/ducks rotten lettuce head) since Raye was the guy under whom Tony Gonzales became Tony Gonzales. Last year Martz SAID he was going to do more to integrate Davis into the offense, but ended up using him the same way he’d used his TEs in the past (which is to say, not very much).
In Singletary we trust.
Follow-up
To follow up on my comment, Jimmy Raye’s main philosophical difference with Martz is in how they run the football. Martz likes to run wide, outside the tackles. Raye prefers to stuff it down their throats with straight-ahead power running between the tackles.
As to the Coryell comparison, it doesn’t fit. As I said, and anyone who has been around long enough to know can tell you, Jimmy Raye is a master at the play-action pass and slants. He especially likes to include the tight ends. This offense will be balanced and dangerous. He may look like old Uncle Festus, but this man can coach. You don’t keep getting hired in this league unless you are highly respected. He is by both management and his former players.
Kezarvet
You don’t keep getting hired in this league unless you are highly respected.
Except he hadn’t been hired as an OC in half a decade. Even before that, no one knew for sure he called the plays, as he seemed to always work for offensive minded coaches.
Who is more of a threat on play action?
Smith or Hill? I’m trying to imagine the time it would take Sean to Roll out of the pockets take his leapy lumping bounds and throw the ball 60 yards down field.
Right now?
If the decision had to be made now, I’d say Hill. He is willing to make the quicker snap judgments, and on a play-action play, the time window to catch the defense’s bite/mistake is extremely small.
right
Hill vs. Smith boils down to decision making and speed in picking up the offense vs. arm strength and athleticism. Play-action roll-outs are Smith’s specialty, but I don’t expect to see him behind center until later in the year because he’s lacking in the former two aspects.
In Singletary we trust.
Hill vs. Smith. . .
does boil down to natural instincts for the position. You can have all the speed, arm strength and athleticism you need, but if you can’t make the quick decision and know when to hold ‘em and when to fold ’em, you’re out of luck. Alex has never demonstrated the ability to quickly release the ball or to make the proper decision.
On the other hand, old Noodle Arm has football smarts. He has a great quick release, is very accurate, and has the quiet confidence necessary to be a team leader. He’s fairly mobile and pretty tough as his memorable run without his helmet demonstrated. That’s the very reason his offensive line loves him.
Unless Hill goes down, we won’t be seeing Alex except in mop-up roles.
Kezarvet
hit reply if you're responding to a comment (mine in this case)
Also, I’m by no means ruling out Smith’s becoming the starting QB this season. You’re right that Hill has tons of moxie, but don’t discount Smith’s upside—since play action (which will apparently feature prominently in this offense) is great for setting up roll-outs and plays down the field (for which Smith’s arm strength and balance in throwing on the run are certainly helpful).
In Singletary we trust.
Alex and decisions.
Why might Alex fail to make quick decisions? He is smart and is an athlete and competitor.
Do you think the horribleness of the team from 05-07 has left him psychologically scarred for life, or that he was never capable of it in the first place(a distinct possibility)?
Smith
It’s a pretty widely believed that Smith, while smart, takes quite some time to be comfortable in a system. Over the first few years of his career (even before his injury), Smith has shown hesitation when it comes to pulling the trigger. It’s not that he’s slow or dumb, but I believe he over analyzes situations, and is a lot more willing to wait for a WR to get open than Hill is. While Smith doesn’t hold onto the ball quite like O’Sullivan did last year, he is definitely a little slow at making a read and deciding what he wants to do with the ball after doing so.
Why?
- He’s had his woes to say the least.
- He let them break him (along with Nolan’s bashing)
- He never had the arm strength to fit the ball into tight windows
- When he heisitates, the window gets smaller, yet Smith still would occasionally force the ball
- Now 2 injuries and 1 and a half years removed from his last meaningful game
- I’m going to assume his arm strength has deminished quiet considerably
- looks rusty in practice
Choose one or more answers.
other than woes
-where is the evidence of poor arm strength?
-reports say he is throwing quite well is practice
-rusty yes, but its been two years, not really a point
Personally I think its his personality – kind of a jerk.
Never had the arm strength to fit the ball into tight windows.
Didn’t say poor.
-
Your question:
Why might Alex fail to make quick decisions?
rusty yes, but its been two years, not really a point
How is being rusty and not playing for the past 2 years, not really a “point”?
I'm assuming that he was trying to say...
That it’s still very early to judge this competition. Smith’s “rustiness” and the fact that he hasn’t played in a while would put emphasis on the “too early to tell” argument, as it would be logical to assume that he’ll get better as he continues to take part in practice and team drills.
No one’s expecting him to be ready right away. I would think that this knowledge would stand out in the minds of the coaches, especially. Whether it causes them to be more patient with him, giving him more time to recover, or whether it causes them to be more hopeful – letting him work out his kinks on the field…that remains to be seen.
Natural instincts
My comment about Alex lacking “natural instincts” was just that. Natural instincts are something that you either have or don’t have. They come naturally. When Steve Young first came to the Niners he was raw but always seemed to instinctively make the right decision. It’s called thinking on your feet.
Alex has all the physical tools although his shoulder is now questionable, and he is very smart when it comes to book learning. However, he does not show any ability to make quick decisions under pressure. He holds on to the ball too long and has not improved that in four years. It is exactly what Urban Meyer described. Alex does things by repeating them over and over again until he can learn them.
I can’t think of any great QBs who had to learn how to release the ball quickly, or how to make the right decision on when to run and when to pass. It comes naturally. The Niners have had some great QBs over the years and I’ve been privileged to see them all, from Frankie Albert up to the present day. For physical ability, Alex ranks up at the top. For thinking on his feet and displaying QB leadership and pocket presence, he’s not in the top 10. Natural instincts can’t be taught — you either have them or you don’t. Hill does. Alex . . .
Kezarvet
hagiography
these kinds of comments smack of hagiography, which is the venerable art of giving an account of the life of a saint. Obviously Steve Young was THE MAN, and I in no way want to undermine who he was for the 49ers. But how long was SY in the Niners system before he became the guy? And how many years had the system been in place before he even came into it, let alone until he saw the field. He was, in that sense, another cog swapped into a finely tuned offensive machine. So what you call “instincts” seem “natural” because you never saw him struggling in practice for x number of months/years. You just remember what he did when he hit the playing field—which was, let’s be clear, awesome.
I’m sure any Utah fan circa-2005 would’ve said Smith had fantastic instincts too. What Urban Meyer described was a guy who, once he learns the system, looks instinctual.
If anything is natural, you ought to be looking in the direction of things like arm strength and mobility.
In Singletary we trust.
I disagree
Things like arm strength and mobility are physical attributes. I’m talking about the mental aspects, the natural instincts that lie in your brain. Hagiography and Christianity have nothing to do with it.
As to Young, you misspoke. I DID see him struggle in practice on a daily basis in Rocklin where I lived at the time. Steve was a brilliant thinker and made quick decisions. With a PhD in Social Psychology and as literally a lifetime Niner fan, I don’t think you are able to lecture me on natural instincts or on the various abilities of any QB in Niner history.
Actually, Alex reminds me somewhat of Steve DeBerg. Steve was a better passer, actually he was an excellent passer, but when the chips were down he would always make just one mental mistake to beat himself. Walsh loved Steve but his frustration led him to go to Montana a bit quicker than he wanted. Alex is not as accurate a passer and has never demonstrated a consistent ability to think on his feet. There is no time-release capsule in his system that is all of a sudden going to give him the intangibles he needs to make it in this league. I wanted Alex to be a great QB in the worst way, but let’s face the facts — unless a lobotomy is performed, he just doesn’t have the “it” factor.
Kezarvet
please use your PhD to hit the reply button
Not to be snarky, but you’ve missed my point in a couple of ways:
1) the hagiography bit was an analogy, not a statement about Christianity per se. The point was this: just as Christians are able to remember lives of the saints in the most favorable light once they are completed, so 49ers fans remember players who produced on the field for what they did on the field—that is to say after their careers are finished. That is to say we claim that certain attributes were always characteristic of them based on who they became, not who they were at a certain point. All of us can agree that Smith’s career isn’t yet finished (even if some would say that it ought to be). So it follows that we don’t know just what to make of Smith’s “natural instincts”—yet.
2) You didn’t really respond to my discussion of Urban Meyer and how ‘instinctual’ Smith looked in that system. So the “time-release capsule” analogy doesn’t really work. Why not? Because Smith made strides from year 1 to year 2, was in a monumentally crappy offense with a broken shoulder in year 3 and didn’t play in year 4. That career arc is a) very unfinished and b) shows some development. Remember that Smith was ranked decidedly ahead of Hill on Martz’s depth chart. The “time-release-capsule” analogy makes “decision-making” a magical process, which makes the fact that some QBs take a while to really get comfortable unintelligible. My point with mentioning the Utah experience is precisely that he has shown the capacity to, when given time, learn a system and become not only reliable but outstanding in it. I think this is our fundamental disagreement. You think of the “it” factor as something intangible, something instinctual, something, finally, magical. Maybe we will have to agree to disagree here, because I don’t think of things this way—and particularly not with Smith. Why not? Because if you had judged Smith after his 1st college season you would’ve said he didn’t have the ‘it’ factor either.
In Singletary we trust.
The "it" factor
As far as I’m concerned the “it” factor is a post hoc determination as you suggest. The best thing for Smith and the cohesion of this offense (which is needed before any “it” factor might emerge) is for Smith to watch from the sidelines for at least the first 6 games.
Last thing about Smith, because I’d rather discuss our new and intriguing offense
he has a noticeably different attitude.
This.
I think that while Smith doesn’t have the “quick release” that Hill has, which I call more “quick decision making,” I wouldn’t rule out Smith’s ability to develop said trait. As I’ve pointed out numerous times in the past around here, every time Hill has come into the starting lineup, it has been as the underdog who has nothing to lose. Naturally, when you’re in this position, you feel a little more willing to take chances and risks. Hill sees a read, and rather than over-analyze it as Smith has done in the past, he takes it. If Hill reads his deep guy is gone, rather than wait and see if it comes back (as Smith and O’Sullivan were more willing to do), he immediately checks down (Hill checks down A LOT).
As grantmp points out, Urban Meyer in the past has stated that Smith takes a while to understand a system, but when he fully understands it, he plays like it’s completely embedded in his brain. Smith is a smart guy, and smart people can be overanalytical. Instead of making a read and throwing the ball, Smith may be falling trap to making a read, understanding why the read is there, and trying to figure out if anything will change.
I’m not trying to say Smith will still be sure-fire superstar that a #1 overall pick is supposed to be. I don’t think anyone (except Smith) can say that with any kind of belief they are certain about it. However, I do think that he can still be a serviceable QB in this league, and maybe even go beyond that. He just needs time to settle in on a system and at LEAST have two years with the same teacher.
re: continuity and quick reads vs. the RIGHT read
This last point (re: continuity) was the reason I brought up Young to begin with. Smith, specifically, needs a particular kind of situation that he hasn’t gotten—and others in the past have benefited from continuity.
Also, taking one thing that the defense gives quickly (as Hill does very well) isn’t always as good as taking what the defense will give if you give it time. Ball control offenses are only good if they’re moving the ball, and if you’re only getting 5 and 7 yards per play you’re screwed if you have a negative play on 1st down. Big plays can often result when a QB has patience. The thing about our judgment here is that we see a check-down that gains say, 5 yards we think ‘great, they’re moving the ball downfield.’ We wouldn’t kill the QB for having taken the checkdown if on the same play, a slightly more risky non-checkdown throw would’ve yielded 15. But if the next two plays go for 2 and 2 yards, the fact remains that we would’ve been better served by taking the 15 yarder. So the quick read isn’t always the right read in terms of having a successful offense.
Now, ditching the hypotheticals, the thing I worry about with Hill is that he won’t be able to keep defenses honest down the field. So what some would call his ‘it factor’ and his ‘natural instincts’—that is, a quick short dump-off pass— may be, ultimately, the result of not the right read, but of a read that will screw the team against defenses that are geared to allow only the short pass. To put it another way, the ‘it factor’ is only an ‘it factor’ if it is part of a successful offense. The fact that we know Young to have been successful ensures that we will (post hoc) determine him to have had the ‘it factor’. On the other side of the equation, people have already started this conversation about Mark Sanchez, but at this point, people are in fact prognosticating rather than speaking about something inherent in the guy.
In Singletary we trust.
It's all moot anyway
because knowing Singletary, Hill will start and, barring injury, Smith will get a lot of bench time. Raye will tailor the offense for Hill and Jimmy’s greatest strength is the slant and play-action passes. As to Smith being ahead of Hill on Martz’s list, that means nothing. JTO was ahead of both.
HIll and Raye will make a nice team for the Niners. And . . . Michael Robinson will be on the receiving end of plenty of passes from his backup FB position. The other day he caught a 50-yarder from Hill. They work very well together.
Kezarvet
I dont know.
Sing seems to be the kind of guy who either decided himself or delegates the decision to someone he trusts. I’m not saying he doesn’t have a lot of input in all discussions, its just that it seems like it will either be someone in particulars “call”, or it will be so obvious ( Hills job to loose) that there will be an unspoken consensus.
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