A question of Faith.......
by DarkkStarr1 on May 20, 2009 11:33 AM PDT
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PrintEarly in the morning, in Levenworth , Kansas; a mysterious figure exits a maximum security prison in a non discript jacket and slacks. I can only imagine how he has his head bent to the ground looking at nothing, yet seeing everything. his mind wonders back to a few years ago, when his mere presence garnered flash photographs, autograph seekers, little children wearing his jersey, some of the most expensive suits on his massive frame, Maybochs, Land Rovers, and limos, waiting to whisk him to his next party destination, and the entire professional football world as his oyster.
This individual goes by the name of Micheal Vick. His former life was that of one of the highest paid quarterbacks in the NFL. he had endorsements that could afford him a lifestyle that could only come in his wildest dreams as a youngster growing up. On this chilly morning he has left the prison that has been his home for the past 2 years as his plea agreement with the federal attorney, has finally come to it's apex. Now, he is on his way to his real home back in Hampton, VA. The thoughts that must go through his mind. Where he had carte blanche to come and go as he pleased; he must now be relegated to a few destinations. (most likely work, church, the grocery store, and maybe his lawyers office.) His bank account used to read in the millions. I'm sure the folks at Visa were all too happy to mail him his Black card. Now he will work construction in the damp and chilly weather in Virginia for a paltry $10 an hour. (By the way folks, some of that money will already be taken from him not only in taxes, but in the renting of the home monitering equipment he now must wear. along with past lawyer fees and garnishments against his former life.)
The saddest part of this story is that he got to this point via deception and cruel public opinion. His crime against society; participation in the cruel sport of dog fighting. He fed, trained, housed, and bank rolled a pack of pit bulls, in order to see them fight one another to see whose dog was top beast. Funny when he reminises, that when the FBI raided the location of the crime, he wasn't even on the property. Yet, the very people he trusted the most, the ones who had their hands out asking to be helped from their own lives of plight, turned on him faster than Barry Bonds on a 98 mph pitch. They gave him up to the Feds for either no time or as little as possible.
Suddenly, the entire world turned against him. The people who cheered his name so grandly, now hollered for his head. The team he had taken from footstools, to the NFC Championship, turned their collective backs on him. Children and adults who spent almost $100.00 dollars for his shirt, threw them to the flames and the trash. All for HIS dogs. News companies did exposes on his property, showing animal pens that were dingy and dirty, (mostly from misuse). His former dogs taken into "protective custody" were filmed at veterinary hospitals getting their wounds cared for. All the while, his name was dragged through the muck and mire. Societies of people who care so much for animals, looked for ways to see him catch the death sentence. (Good luck, Virginia doesn't use it, and the Feds only use it against the most heinous of offenders). Now he must look forward to getting his life back on track. A long hard road lies ahead.
While looking out the window of his conveyance, his mind ventures back to most likely the best day of his stay in prison. A certain tall, quiet mannered, soft spoken man from his fromer life came to visit. His face radiated hope, his eyes glistened with peace, and his words carried encouragement. Mike had seen Tony Dungy from the other side of the field on countless occassions. No doubt thinking to himself how much he would love to beat his teams brains in. Humiliate them in front of the entire world. Yet, he also saw something else. A calm sense of things. A demeanor that was so different from that of his own coach. Here he was talking to him of a lifestyle that could possibly bring him peace in his stormy life. If only he hadn't deceided to give up being a coach in the NFL, he would've done anything to play for this man. now, he only wants 1 more chance.
I heard on a radio show today, that there were a few teams that would want Micheal's services, once his sentence was through. the Niners, Patriots, Dolphins, Raiders, and the Browns were all mentioned as teams interested. Yet, I find it very unlikely that any of them will give him the opportunity. there are several reasons that come to mind that will escapee the lips of the heads of these clubs. "He doesn't fit our system". "We can't afford him under the salary cap." "The Falcons would ant too much for a trade." I however believe all of these excuses would really mean one thing. "WE CAN"T TAKE THE CHANCE ON LOSING MONEY, DUE TO HIS CONVICTION."
I find it funny that this country has so many different ways of using religious reasons for their lives. Yet, they seem to pick and choose which they follow. One of the teachings of the main religion in the U.S. is; "To hate the sin, not the sinner." "To forgive and forget." Most importantly, "Ye who hath no sin, cast the first stone."
While Mike played, granted; statistically not one of the best QB's to hurl a ball. In fact, after a few seasons under his belt, many of his supporters, were wondering if he was the man they wanted to continue to call signals for them.
I am not writing this column to excuse Mike from his crime. Yes, what he did was wrong on a certain level, but, this league has been filled to capacity with players who have done wrong and many of them still play withouot having spent 1 night in the pokey. Once their time was over, many teams stood in line to throw money at them with the belief that they had paid their debt, and they could help their club reach the promised land. Some fullfilled this hope, other flamed out and crashed.
In summation, I say this, if Mike is available for playing, I hope the Niners take a close look. Or any team for that matter. Because, no matter how you may feel about his crime, Vick has paid his debt to society and everyone deserves the opportunity to show that they have changed their ways. The important part being GIVEN A CHANCE! Mike deseves this, just like anyone who reads this post. We have all done something wrong in our lives that hurt someone, or was stupid at the time. Once we were done with the punishment, most everyone of us wanted a second chance to show we were better than our dumb mistake.
When Mike comes to Commissioner Goodell to hopefully be reinstated, I hope you have the Faith that so many claim to have. And apply it in entirety, that "ALL" have sinned, and come short of the glory......Thump that before you thump him any further.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Well
The man did kill dogs. Hard to look at an individual that is capable of such behavior and not see emotional disturbance.
I hate to judge what is right and wrong, mostly because it is based so strongly on the mores of society. What I will say is that in THIS society, he did something that disturbed quite a few people and as such perhaps he should not be compensated quite so well in the future for his skills.
Hmmmmm.........
Do you have time to discuss this last political administration? Better yet, why not take a field trip with your pet to Walter Reed Hospital and tell me if you don’t see a DISTINCT difference.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Um
Can you clarify your argument? You know, make a point? I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. That dogs and people are different? Humans are bipedal. Dogs are quadrupedal. Ok.
Where would politics come into this? Were you trying to say that I had no point? I’d be happy to be more specific if I need to.
Please, enlighten me!
Start talking politics and I start deleting comments. Just fair warning.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, that was more general than directed at you in any way. I just replied to your comment to keep the warning on the same thread.
I saw two heated comments that both brought up politics, one of which was pretty specific, so I stepped in the middle. Wherever the conversation would have gone, I consider it part of my general responsibility as a mod here to keep it away from certain, particularly polarizing things.
But I don’t want anyone to feel targeted.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions
FtA....
Thanks, Just feel strongly about that particular subject. when ppl begin to act as if the life of a fellow man is less important than that of an animal, it just makes me sick!
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Dribble = emotional excuse making.
Suck up = “Mike Vick is my hero!”
It does not take much imagination to picture Vick and his buddies watching and laughing as they enjoy torturing dogs unto death. No normal human being, or even sub-normal, could enjoy that! Vick has a sickness that cannot be cured by prison time. The last thing he needs is a few million $$ to spend on his next vile enterprise. If reinstated he should be required, and willing, to donate 90% of his income to the SPCA. That might show a change of attitude.
Err
I was just commenting on the multiple misspellings in such a short period.
In addition, I would ask that you define “normal” for me. Almost 50% (48.1%, to be exact) of US-born individuals will experience a DSM-IV psychiatric disorder in their lifetime. Is normal being part of that other 50%? He scores low on the emotional intelligence scale, which is interesting and sad but not exactly inhuman.
The “sickness” that you attribute to him is certainly abnormal to you, but I suspect that it is not likely that you grew up in the same environment as he did. Your understanding of what is right and wrong, certainly what is acceptable and unacceptable is going to differ from mine and that of many others. For example: it is safe to say that in our society it is perfectly acceptable to hold a cow in a tiny pen for most of its adult life, lead it to slaughter, and consume the flesh rent from its lifeless body. In much of India, though, this is considered as atrocious or moreso than the acts perpetrated by Vick. It is a matter of understanding that not everyone will have the same view of right and wrong.
That having been said, don’t think that I am condoning the actions of Vick. I personally believe that what he did was wrong. I am just asking you to look beyond your narrow view of morality and try to understand that he has already been punished for violating the mores of this society, and should be allowed to move on with the knowledge of the impact of his previous actions. He isn’t going to do it again, so leave it at that.
Who said he enjoyed it??
Donate 90 percent………..you’re not even being realistic. What he did to those dogs affected you in what way?? What did it cost you or anyone in the community?? Is it worse than child molestation???
He did that time for the gambling not the dogs!! (Tax free income crimes carry the most time)
M. S. #50
Oh really......
Looking at things from a glass half full approach, anyone else can say Roger Goodell, all the owners and yes, even we the fans have a severe psychological sickness. We watch with glee as grown men run around on a field and pound each other senseless for 17 weeks out of a year. Do you think you’re sick enough to spend time in a Federal pen, and donate 90% of your salary to Amnesty Int.? Didn’t think so.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Voluntary involvement by the participants.
The difference should be obvious. If the NFL took random citizens and forced them to fight to the death then they would be comparable.
My point is.....
Football if seen in the light that folks look at Vick’s transgression, is just as violent and brutal. Volentary or not. By the by, if you’ve ever tryed to move a dog that don’t wanna move, you’ll understand they can be just as obliging as they can be immovable.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
My point is...
That it’s not. In one of those activities, an animal is tortured and killed. In the other, grown men put pads on and try to hit each other very hard. Football players don’t die at the end of each game. There’s no way it’s as violent or brutal.
You need to see.....
With that mentality, speak to a few of the old timers who have played the game and ask THEM just how violent it can be. Ask Troy Aikman and Steve Young about the headaches they have to endure, due to the countless concussions they have sustained over their time on the gridiron. Take a look at how Joe Namath walks around after inumerable knee surgeries. take a REAL good look at the hands of John Unitas before he finally passed. The man could barely write his own name his hands were that mangled.
And finally, ask the widows and supports of Kory Stringer and Dennis Byrd just how violent, on and off the field this game can be.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Vick has served his time in prison, lost millions of dollars, his name has been trampled by millions. Yet people still don’t want to forgive him. I don’t believe people care whether or not Vick is capable to come back into society and behave like a law-abiding citizen, but this is more about hatred for Michael Vick and how they want vengeance. Which in its own way is fairly disturbing.
FtA: Thanks
I’m sure inbetween all the grammatical errors I made, you found the message in the bottle. I appreciate your time and intelligence.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
If Vick still has the ability to play in the NFL, he should be given a chance. I’m just not sure their are any teams out there who want to deal with the media circus that will come to follow his comeback. Teams may feel the distraction outways the benefit he brings to the team. It may not be fair, but it’s the reality of the situation. But before anyone feels too bad for Vick, he made the choices that led him to this predicament. He can only blame himself.
Go on.......
And T.O, and “Tank” Johnson, and Addam Jones, and Matt Jones (WR), and…………
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
...
… and Albert Haynesworth’s head stomping. It’s one thing to be an attention-hog (T.O), or someone who gets himself into trouble (Adam Jones), but it’s a whole other issue to stomp on an opposing player’s helmetless (if I recall right) head. And the guy just got a huge contract (and all kinds of fans and teams wanted his services otherwise).
Michael Vick = Barry Bonds
There’s no question he’s still got something left in the tank. He absolutely deserves to get another shot at playing. But no owner is required to take on that kind of distraction. The truth is that the media storm is probably not worth the slight increase in roster talent.
hard comparison
Bonds was at the absolute apex of the game and had produced at a Hall of Fame level. Michael Vick has shown potential but has been too inconsistent and not really been that all-world player…just an all-world “athlete.”
by David Fucillo on May 20, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
On that note
What if he didn’t come back at QB? With his size and toughness (he has taken many hits through College and into the NFL), he could make a decent SS. I’m not sure if he has the vision for it, but he is fast enough to play FS as well.
Michael Vick would make a terrible shortstop.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2009 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
NFC Championship....
With the exception of Matt Ryan, Mike was the first QB since Rich Gannon to take the Falcons even close to the promised land. There’s all the proof you need.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
I think you missed the joke.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions
FtA: Thanks
I appreciate the correction. Couoldn’t remember the guys name. But, yes, Chandler was the last.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Right.
And in spite of all that talent, no one would give Bonds a job. Vick comes nowhere near as close in talent, but brings a similar level of negative attention. If no one would hire Bonds, I won’t be surprised if Michael Vick isn’t picked up, either.
You make my point
Both men are equally talented. In the world of sports, there are greats and not so greats. For a few years, everyone and their GrandMa touted Vick as one of the best in the league. Now all of a sudden, because of a disgretion (minor or major; your opinion) he’s going to be “blackballed” and not given a second chance to show his talents? With a league full of transgressors…..that makes no sense.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
P.S.
By the way, I love Barry, and if I were a baseabll owner, I would rather have to go through the media circus with a guy who gives me 140 RBI, 50 Homers. ’Nuff said.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
I wouldn't say both men are EQUALLY talented.
Bonds is far superior in this regard. However, in case it’s unclear, I think Vick should be given the opportunity to try out for an NFL team. I just don’t expect he will and I understand why. He’s a distraction to the team and brings a lot of negative attention. The treatment of Barry Bonds suggests to me that this kind of stuff does matter to owners and GMs.
very hard comparison
Vick didn’t shame his sport or his body. He killed some dogs that he paid for or found. Just doesn’t matter to me and I have dogs. I do what I want with them and no one can tell me I’m too nice, or they shouldn’t ride in my truck, I paid for the dog and I feed it and no one else has any amount of stress from it!!
M. S. #50
Actually, they can tell you what to do with your dogs, within reason. They’e not bobbleheads. There are actual police forces that are dedicated to the lawful protection of domestic animals.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Really..........
Law enforcement set up to protect animals? as opposed to spending their time protecting…I don’t know…..HUMANS?
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
There are far, far more police forces dedicated to protecting humans than animals. There is no conflict of priorities here. There are laws regarding the cruel treatment of animals, and there are authorities in place to enforce those laws. Simple as that. This is neither new nor is it strange. There’s no reason to pretend that it is.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions
It has nothing to do with the animals.
My cousin’s neighbor got busted for cock-fighting.
He paid a $1000 fine.
Vick got screwed because he was “famous”
That’s a bunch of crap….where is the equality?
by SportsChicken on May 20, 2009 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually
It is normally the other way around, with “famous” individuals facing lesser penalties for the same crimes. Vick committed a pair of felonies including interstate commerce/aid of unlawful animal fighting, which by itself carries a maximum of 3 years in prison, 5 years probation, and a $500,000 fine.
I doubt your cousin’s neighbor was faced with all that.
It depends on what they get CHARGED for
That one guy could have gotten charged for all sorts of things because he was running the whole thing and was breeding the animals.
In Vick’s case, the DA decided to make an example out of him.
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
There were a lot of people there
The idea is that if the DA wanted, he could have set up a huge investigation and given that guy a bunch of different charges.
But he didn’t because it wasn’t worth his time and because he couldn’t make an example of some 50 year old guy playing with some chickens.
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m still not convinced that it’s so simple.
I think there’s more going on still. The financial burden of cleaning up a dog-fighting ring is significantly greater. The authorities have to expend more time, labor, money, resources and, wuite frankly, emotional energy to deal with something.
Not only that, but then all the dogs have to be evaluated both physically and psychologically, a good number of them probably have to be humanely euthenized, and those that don’t have to go through a long – and again, financially burdensome – rehabilitation and adoption process.
As a country, we’re far more emotionally invested in dogs, which has something to do with it. But it also just plain costs a lot more in terms of both money and resources to deal with something like a dogfighting ring than it takes to deal with a cockfighting ring. So the punishment is rightfully more severe from a simply systemic point of view.
But remember: Americans get OUTRAGED when dogs are mistreated. We don’t have that cultural investment in chickens.
So there are really significant emotional, cultural, financial and otherwise systemic disparities between these two examples.
I do admit that this is only one side of the issue, and that there is something to what you’re saying, but you’re severely overstating the point while ignoring quite a lot of other mitigating factors.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s the same crime:
Animal abuse
Yet different punishments are given…that doesn’t seem fair.
Mike Vick was made an example of.
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Not even close.
It’s the same type of crime. It is no way, shape, or form the same crime. You’re really simplifying some pretty complex issues either for the sake of some strange moralistic crusade, or simply to take the easy way out. Because putting things in the terms that you’re putting them in is the easy way out here.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
easy or not
Animal abuse is animal abuse.
I don’t care how you (or America) feel about dogs.
That guy held “fights” every weekend (in his house) and made money by charging people entrance fees and stuff.
He was also running illegal poker games.
And he got slapped with a $1000 fine.
(not too much, considering all the money he made off the “fights”)
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions
“Easy or not” is not a good way to dismiss a legitimate distinction. So what happens if a guy is holding a fighting fish ring in his living room?
I’m pulling from an extreme end here, but you seem to be doing the same so it’s a fair tactic.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions
PTI, but a fish fighting ring...lol
my money is on the guy with the juiced up piranhas
I like to shake them haters off, so sometimes I just sit here shaking.
Don't mind tactics
If the guy is running an illegal “fish fighting ring” and is taking bets and whatnot then it’s still the same crime.
Illegal gambling, animal abuse (if they can prove that the fish were abused…..), and other charges that the DA can come up with.
Morally, it’s not the same as fighting dogs, but it’s the same crimes.
by SportsChicken on May 22, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Vick was basically housing and financing (?) an entire dogfighting ring that resulted in the abject and cruel mistreatment, as well as the violent deaths of more than a few lawfully protected animals.
Something tells me that your cousin’s neighbor wasn’t doing anything close to that scale.
Also, what Cruthier said. I won’t bother repeating him.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, just to be clear, I’m not saying that any of this is a reason that Vick shouldn’t be let back in the league. I think he should be if he can still contribute at the pofessional level.
I just think that people seem to be arguing that these laws either don’t exist or that we should be given a free pass for breaking them, and that’s just… psychotic… to me.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
FtA....
Maybe it’s just me……but, I tend to value the life of a human more than that of an animal. By leaps and bounds.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
And I’m not saying that it should be any other way. But valuing one thing over another doesn’t mean that both don’t deserve protection.
And people do have far, far, far, far, far more legal protection than animals. Having laws for animals does not mean that human life is being undervalued.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Ok
Well, I’m going to get dirty on this but sometimes you have to.
You would feed a convicted child molester over a starving, abandoned dog?
Don’t say that example is too harsh, because it isn’t terribly far off. Both humans are taking advantage of defenseless individuals. I’m not saying that I value a dog’s life over Vick’s, but I am saying that it isn’t such a wide chasm as you are indicating it should be.
It IS terribly far off
A child molester is a criminal, a starving dog is just a poor animal.
Here’s a better example:
A homeless man (or woman w/e) or an abandoned dog?
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Your point?
That animals deserve the same treatment as humans….?
Please clarify
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I fail to see how that will ever be relevant….?
I actually wrote an analytical paper on the other topic (animals don’t deserve human rights)….
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok
We could have a week-long discussion on the similarities between human and other animals, and the obligation that we have to protect them and our natural environment as wholly sentient beings, but maybe that is too far displaced from the Vick situation.
I’ve taken several sources in Psychology including Human Personality, Abnormal Psychology, Psychology of Learning with a focus on the similarities between humans and animals, Ethology, Animal Behavior, and Developmental Psychology. Suffice it to say, I do have a basic understanding of what I am talking about when I say that taking advantage of an ill-defended creature is not so far displaced from doing the same with a human. Please don’t tell me that animals don’t have feelings, or I’ll have to go pull out my old books for quotes…
If you are willing to say that a child molester, in all his inglorious nature, deserves better treatment than a well-mannered pound-pup… well, I implore you to reconsider. At the same time, I do feel that we are venturing too far away from football in these discussions, so I am willing to concede the argument to the point that I will accept your system of belief and not contend it further. If you wish to have this discussion elsewhere I may be willing to push further and back my arguments with scientific evidence.
You've got Class
Very nice.
I do agree that this no longer has anything to do with Mike Vick.
Just don’t get me wrong:
I was addressing the idea that animals have the same rights as humans. (which you never brought up)
I can’t really comment on the whole child molester thing, because I don’t have any experience with that topic.
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, he’s giving an example by which a human life is arguably worth less than a dogs.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree.......(FtA)
We have MILLIONS of homeless PEOPLE all over this great country of ours. We have the HIGHEST amount of money per capita of any nation in the world. And, while I’m on the subject…..not all HOMELESS people are F#@!*d up folks. Many never had the resources, or were simply folks who fell on hard times. So that to me states your thoughts on humans as a whole! Sickning. Yet, I digress, animals Do deserve a modicum of protection under the law, but, I have been keeping up with a lot of the responses to my post, and continue to come to the same sad conclusion. Some folks feel me about my thoughts on our fellow man…..yet there are others who STILL feel as if the life of an animal (place whichever one you “LOVE” most here.) is of more import.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
I think this is a dangerous misreading of the comments that have been made by others.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 26, 2009 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Still
A few valid points.
Although it is pretty much irrelevant since it’s unclear who it is directed to.
by SportsChicken on May 26, 2009 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Tell that to Buffalo.....
After his sophmore year in the league, T.O. has destroyed EVERY team he’s played for. A Cancer that has set back 4 different organizations. Now he moves onto #5. Regardless of the pain in the butt he is, owners have been willing to take a chance on a known “disease”, yet he is still employed. I ask you where is the fairness in that?
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Well
For starters, Vick didn’t draw the ire of PETA or any other grand-scale movement in the U.S. (in this case, animal rights activists).
By destroyed, do you mean propelled to the playoffs?
T.O. has a bad personality, but I think the harm he brings to a team has been overblown by the media. On top of that, you can’t compare cheating or felony crimes to just being a jerk and an emotional headcase, which is really all that T.O. has ever done.
Hence my point......
San Fran was a playoff team till he blew up. Philly made the Super Bowl,till he cryed like a spoiled brat. His antics set Tony Romo back at least 2 years, till Jerry was backed into a corner to get rid of him. Yet, by being a jerk and a locker room cancer, he is invited to other teams like he has done nothing wrong whatsoever. The arena of public opinion, has convicted him as well as his proven track record. If T.O. gets another chance, why not Mike?
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Well, like I said...
because Vick committed multiple felonies, one of which the community finds morally repulsive. He’s a greater distraction to the team and he’s not as good as T.O.
As good how.........?
Over the last 2 seasons, he’s led the league in dropped passes and being a poor teammate. Being the destroyer of a multi BILLION dollar team, SHOULD be a crime. cast him out with the bath water too.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Anyways
I don’t care for Vick or his talents.
He can’t throw the damn ball.
What’s the use of having him on the 49ers?
He should just wait until Gruden comes back to the NFL….he’ll get a shot with him.
Okkkkkkkkk........
But, you never know, his arm is stronger than Shaun Hill’s (and for the record…I love Shaun.) He has more motivation to perform well, so there goes Alex. And if I remember correctly, HOF’er Steve Young wasn’t the most accurate player in the world, till he grew older and could no longer outrun everyone else. So, he had to learn to increase his accuracy. In this league, competition makes it go round. Either you sink or swim. I’m just thinking to give the man a chance to compete. Honestly. ’Nuff said.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
increase accuracy?
How?
You’re either accurate or you aren’t…you can’t teach (or learn) accuracy…..or so say all the coaches in the NFL.
Don’t compare Steve Young to Mike Vick….Young was the most efficient QB in the history of the NFL
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ve always had an extremely hard time believing the “you either are or aren’t accurate” thing. It just flies in the face of anything I’ve ever experienced. Accuracy is a byproduct of how you throw the ball, and how you throw the ball is an acquired skill from day one. And any acquired skill can be improved with work if not instruction. It’s not an innate thing.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Why then?
Do so many professional QBs struggle with accuracy?
If it was learn-able then everyone would learn how to be accurate.
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Again, this is an extreme simplification, and much too easy of a response
The answer is that it is an extremely difficult skill being cultivated at the highest possible level.
Another example: If chess is so learnable, then everyone would be Bobby Fisher.
Just because something can be learned doesn’t make it easy. I mean, really.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't know about Chess or "Bobby Fisher"
Anyways you say:
“it is an extremely difficult skill being cultivated at the highest possible level”
Which is why Mike Vick won’t ever be as accurate as Peyton Manning
(and why I won’t be as talented as Bobby Fisher)
by SportsChicken on May 21, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Well
Accuracy (in terms of Professional Football) reflects the ability to process large amounts of visual information, make a decision, and then execute that decision; it is not simply hitting a precise target.
On that level, it requires intelligence (insofar as processing speed) to be accurate as opposed to merely the ability to practice until you’ve created muscle memory for each play. And unfortunately, you can’t improve intelligence, or I would have tried long, long ago.
Yeah, but you can improve things like pattern recognition, which is also a pretty significant chunk of the decision making process at the quarterback position.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s kind of a simplistic way for me to put it, and kind of runs into itself as a counterpoint to the point you made. What I mean is that you can improve processing speed by systematically removing the number of pieces from point A to point B by means, most often, of repetition – or, in my terms, pattern recognition.
You clearly have more of an academic grounding in these ideas than I do, and I’m struggling a little to conceptualize my thoughts, but I refuse (without a fairly compelling argument) to believe that an acquired skill can’t be impoved. Improvement is kind of the foundation of acquired skills. Otherwise we’d never learn them in the first place.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions
You are right to think that an acquired skill can be improved through practice, but I would contest that spatial recognition (the ability to manipulate 3D objects mentally) is a very large part of accuracy… what you discussed with the removal of the pieces is a compensation technique (most commonly seen as people age, which allows them to complete the same tasks as they did when they were younger). That compensation technique can improve accuracy by removing the amount of information processed, to be sure, but only to a point. It would be very interesting to set up a study with people of varying spatial recognition abilities and no prior football knowledge, and test the effects of a standard amount of practice on each individual. It could be, say, 1000 hours of a single play. I wonder if I could get one of the cog-psych professors to green light that… runs off to send an email.
Another blanket statement.
You’re either accurate or you aren’t…you can’t teach (or learn) accuracy…..or so say all the coaches in the NFL.
Coaches will tell you that inaccurate pro QBs are unlikely to achieve elite accuracy, but it’s not impossible to do. In the case of Young, a couple tweaks to his mechanics and some adjustments on how he viewed his role as a QB were all it took.
Early in his career, he was expected to make plays with his feet. That’s what made him exciting and that’s why people wanted him in there over somebody else. Later on, however, as the hits and the injuries piled up, he had to learn to adjust his game. Standing tall in the pocket and throwing with your feet set will always create a more accurate pass than one thrown on the run with defenders ahead and behind you. It was this change that earned him his reputation as such an efficient QB.
While he was always an “accurate” passer, he wasn’t considered exceptionally so until he allowed himself to become more of a pocket passer. Contrary to your argument, this is in fact something that you can coach.
Now, I’m not saying that Vick will ever become an exceptionally accurate quarterback, but I do think that some similar adjustments to his game will result in a higher completion percentage and some more well-placed balls. Obviously in the case of Young, this was a reasonable compromise. The question here is whether or not Vick is still worth playing if he isn’t as mobile as he had been in the past.
Like some guy previously said
Steve was always accurate.
by SportsChicken on May 22, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions
No, he wasn't......
There was a league called the USFL Young played in for a little while, and his numbers were mediocre. He then played for a team from Florida that again, his numbers were OK, but, not awe inspiring. It wasn’t until after learning behing Montana, and getting an unhindered shot at being “The Guy”, that young flourished. Even he’ll admit that.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
People who went to High school with steve young
that I know always say that he was more of a running back then he was QB. The same people also claim that the talent around him reallly did him good, more then he did them good. Which would explain why he went to BYU, and not a more prestiges D-1 college.
He went to BYU because he's a devout Mormon.
And he actually has blood ties to Brigham Young, for whom the university is named.
But whatever.
i thought he went to BYU
because that’s where Jim McMahon went….
"I'll be honest with you, I love his music, I do, I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman"
Do you like redundacy....?
You make my point so eliquently. Young WAS asked to make plays with his feet whenn he was younger. And, he did quite well…..for a while. It was the braintrusts at the time in SF, that recognized he could be an even more efficient QB if he stopped running so much and used his arm and brains to beat the defenses in front of him. Thus, with several seasons in the system and practice, his effectiveness rose exponentially! To the tune of: 1 Super Bowl win, the highest passer rating in history (till Kurt Warner beat him out), and a trip to the HOF. It can be done, and Young is the perfect example.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Why are you refuting my argument?
A) I wasn’t talking to you.
B) There’s little/no difference in opinion on the point in question.
Did you write this post for attention, or what?
You’re either accurate or you aren’t…you can’t teach (or learn) accuracy…..or so say all the coaches in the NFL.
I think you’re confusing accuracy for arm strength. You can definitely develop accuracy. This is especially true if you’re lumping in “processing a large amount of visual data and making a decision” into a QB’s “accurracy.” QBs tend to miss receivers and/or throw more picks earlier in their career and improve as they go on.
Arm strength in a grown man, though, is a significantly harder to improve.
Actually, Young was extremely accurate from the moment he got the starting gig in San Francisco. He became freakishly accurate in the middle of his career, and came back down to simply extremely accurate toward the end.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions
"Came back down"?
In what, the 2 1/2 games that he played in the 1999 season?
Steve Young’s best statistical year was in 1998 – his last full year in the league. Were he not knocked cold by Aeneas Williams just a year later, there’s no reason to believe that he would have ever become “less accurate” than he was in his prime.
In my opinion.
Well, anything was going to be a comedown after a 70% season.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow
After reading about half of this I had to search my ipod for some good violin music, something subtle yet moving. After finishing and wiping a tear from my eye I decided to post a reply. I really didn’t want to I was hoping this would die down, go away but this is the second fanpost about, and roughly one thousandth time I’ve heard about it so I have reached the tipping point.
First off Vick has his second chance. He is out of jail, he will have all his freedoms and liberites restored to him and he is free to seek employement anywhere he wishes. So please stop the “he deserves a second chance” arguement. He is getting it.
Second,“Paltry 10 dollars and hour” Why is it such an outrage that he is working construction and is being paid a “paltry” wage. Its what people in that profession for that company make. I don’t see why its so horrible he’s making what everyone else makes. Boo hoo the man who made millions pissed away his oppurtunity and now must toil like the rest of us. Sucks he decided to throw away his chance by breaking the law, but it was his decision.
Third, He got here by cruel public opinion? No, no he didn’t he got here by breaking the law..If people could be put in prison by public opinion then Yoko Ono would have been in chains long ago. Again, he decided to get involved with dog fighting. No one forced him too. This was his decision he must now live with the consequences.
He broke the law, he went to jail, he can now start his life again. He gets his second chance. His second chance is not entry into the NFL. It is not his right to play in the NFL he squandered that chance and now has to pick up the pieces and no amount of rhetoric will change that. You are right he deserves a second chance. That second chance is not a spot on an NFL team making millions of dollars and living a life of luxury. Most of us would not get our old jobs back after doing what he did. Thats life. In a very high profile and public entity like the NFL image is evertyhing, with the big paychecks comes the spotlight. You mess up in the spotlight sometimes you don’t get to come back. Lets not forget this is not the first time Ron Mexico has cast the NFL in a less then desirable light. Its time to look at this objectively and see it for what it is. This isn’t the first time hes been in trouble, there is a strick commisioner running the NFL, and Vick so far hasn’t done anything to show the NFL he is sorry. I would say at this time Vick coming back to the NFL this year isn’t very likely. That could all change depending on his attitude and where he goes from here. Oh and serving his sentence isn’t showing remorse, its the penalty for breaking the law, so use serving his sentence as proof he’s sorry.
Uh, don't use is what I ment to say in that last sentence
I heartily apologize to the grammar and spelling police.
To Ramius, FtA.....
I write this piece in the centext of fairness. Many players currently and formerly in the NFL have had major run ins with the law. Yet they seem to be given a pass. Take Plaxico, true, all he did was shoot himself in the leg by carrying an ILLEGAL firearm. The Giants are basicallly saying they want no further parts of him, yet, after his penance, teams are lining up around the corner for his services. The point……HE STILL BROKE THE LAW!
As far as Vick earning $10.00 an hour for working construction, you must not know a lot of construction workers, because $10 is almost nothing. Everywhere I have lived, (Including West Coast, East Coast, and the Mid South, those type of workers average $25 an hour! And those are the bottom dwellers!)
By cruel public opinion, I mean he was convicted before he even stepped into court. The last I heard, our laws state a person is considered innocent till PROVEN guilty.
To finish off, I just want folks not to be so hypocrytical in their views. If you give a pass to one player who breaks the law, and you welcome him back with open arms, then do the same for this “media driven” outcast.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
“Suck up” and “Dribble” have both have passed my spell checker, again!
Yes, punished, but does he have a changed attitude? How many people do the time but continue with the same life style when released? I am sure you understand “normal” without amplification.
Reply fail
If you want to reply to someone directly, right at the bottom of their post there is a little “+ reply” button that allows you to do so directly. Moving on:
Punishment doesn’t have to change attitude. In fact, it is far less likely to do so than rewarding positive behavior, as punishment has a tendency of making individuals avoid getting caught, rather than making changes based on understanding and will.
Like I said before, Vick did something that some people thing is horrid, and others think is a wrist-slap offense. I doubt he is going to become an animal lover just because he was forced to spend time in prison; to the contrary, I believe it will merely embitter him and possibly to more harm than good (in general; I’m not saying that he will instigate dog fights again).
The best “rehab” for him, if you will call it that", is to spend a lot of time around animals without killing them. Maybe a few face-lickings from a pound-pup to start, and eventually a pet of his own. The understanding of what his actions entailed and a personal/emotional connection to dogs will go a long way in “improving” his behavior.
Now for an example… if you believe/understand the punishment vs. reward stuff, feel free to move on to more interesting information!
If a police officer pulls you over for speeding, exactly how long do you drive the speed limit after that? A day? Two? The punishment does not make you slow down, it merely increases animosity toward authority figures. Now, what if there was a beautiful man/woman (I’m not going to be sexist here) is sitting in the seat next to you and tells you that for every hour you drive at the speed limit, you earn a sexual favor? Would you be as inclined to speed then? Yes, you are slowing down for the wrong reasons, but it is still much more effective. Less-effective strategies are already in places in schools, such as teaching kids that speeding is merely “wrong,” but effective strategies do exist. For instance, when you are driving a parent somewhere they notice that you are driving the speed limit one time and offer you free use of the car for a day. I could also get into “more effective punishment,” but I’ll save that for another Vick discussion.
Sorry for all the psychology stuff guys, it is my primary focus in College and whenever I get a chance to exercise that knowledge I do so that I can keep my brain sharp and focused.
Actually, I quite enjoyed it and I would be quite happy to see you continue to flaunt your knowledge in the future.
One of the writers for the site, Florida Danny, is a scholar of sports psychology and often brings that knowledge into his articles. It’s extremely enlightening and always fun to read.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Thus the point of "REHABILITATION"........
No one can say what lays in a man’s heart, until he shows it to them. The time in prison was the punishment side of the equation. The REHAB part can only be shown by his actions AFTER the fact. Until he’s given the OPPORTUNITY to show he’s sorry, then we can’t make a TRUE statement of his state of mind.
Since you’re such a psych. afficianato, tkae a look at the life of Stanley “Tookie” Williams, and his life. I will leave that research up to those who REALLY wanna spend time learning what REHABILITATION means. Just to spoil it for those not informed, he;s now dead. But, he left behind an entire community of people who his life and death, touched them.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
You missed my point on "normal"
There is no normal; across the globe people, views, understandings of morality differ.
Reply button
I keep using it and can’t make it work. I plead ignorance. I must be doing something else wrong. This time I clicked the “+” instead of “reply.” Perhaps it will work now.
My point was that killing dogs for pleasure in the USA would be defined by our standards as sadistic and definitely not normal. Killing dogs for pleasure vrs. speeding don’t compare very well.
Hunting vs Dog fighting?
What makes hunting so much morally better then dog fighting?
other then the obvious that it’s legal.
really no need for this
I’d prefer we not go into this discussion here (or anywhere really on this site).
by David Fucillo on May 25, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Why not?
They’re both killing animals for the joy of it. There may be some pretty interesting/conflicting opinions here.
vick stuff
This turns into people snapping at each other about how their side is right and the other side isn’t. If I could I’d just ban all discussion of Vick at this point but obviously that’s a little over the top. The character discussion has been beaten into the ground. People are not going to have their mind changed in regards to the character issues surrounding dog fights so nothing is being gained from that. This is a football website, so this is one time when I’d just prefer it be kept related to football.
by David Fucillo on May 25, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Apologies for my part in things here.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 26, 2009 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Hunting vs Dog fighting
Hunting is a way of controlling a population of animals. Take deer for example. If we didn’t blow away some of those doe-eyed bastards they would be all over the place. There would be more of them crossing our highways and obviously that poses a danger to the public. I know all hunting isn’t about keeping deer off our highways, I’m just saying though, that is one difference between the two.
Go Niners, woot!
You make a good point,
However, hunting deer to thin out the population is done out of compassion for overpopulation and starvation. Public safety is a secondary consideration. Ultimately it’s in the hunter’s best interest to stabilize the population so as to safeguard his sport and the population of the deer for future hunts.
To animal lovers:
Sorry, but there is no other humane, cost effective means of population control for wild game species. (as far as I know)
Crabtree is clutch
Riiight.
Yeah, okay. I’m sure everyone who buys yearly hunting licenses and deer tags do it for the sake of healthy forest environments, seeking to contribute to the betterment of nature via population control.
/eyeroll
You guys
Should take your conversation elsewhere.
Read what Fooch posted.
by SportsChicken on May 25, 2009 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions
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