What say you Jimmy Raye: Plotting out the 49ers offense in the red zone
by Fooch on May 31, 2009 8:00 AM PDT
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One of the biggest conundrums heading into the 2009 season is what the Jimmy Raye/Mike Singletary offense will look like. We hear primarily about some kind of power running game. However, we've also heard about Vernon Davis' potential development in the offense.
"(Raye) told me the tight end is the focal point," Davis said. "He said he wants to get his playmakers involved." Davis also spoke to Tony Gonzalez, who Raye coached in Kansas City. "(Tony) said Jimmy would take care of me and make sure I would get the ball," Davis said.
This was post was inspired in part by a Field Gulls post. The post discussed tight end usage on the goal line and pointed to an old Football Outsiders article discussing tight end goal line passes. As much of a speedster as Vernon Davis can be, I've always felt he could and should be a huge weapon down in the red zone.
The 49ers head into the 2009 season with a plethora of potential red zone weapons. I'm curious if anybody thinks a specific person will step up as the ideal red zone thread. The addition of Michael Crabtree certainly adds another guy to the mix. However, I'm wondering if Bear Pascoe could develop into a red zone threat. He stands 6-5, 257 lbs. That's a whole lotta Bear. I know some folks are especially excited about Bear, but I'm certainly willing to temper my own enthusiasm. At the same time, as they say, you can't teach 6-5.
The 49ers were rather awful in the red zone last year. According to FO the 49ers ranked 30th in overall red zone DVOA, 31st in red zone passing and 29th in red zone rushing. If the 49ers are going to make a run at a winning record, this is one area on offense they'll logically have to improve upon. Adding weapons helps, but now we need to see how Jimmy Raye schemes for these situations.
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More weapons in the red zone.
With Martz the running game was anemic. Gore did eventually get yards, but there wasn’t a Moran Norris pounding it out ahead of him. So simply adding a real (and real good) fullback should help with the short distance runs near the goal line. That kind of running can demoralize the opposition.
Then you have Crabtree, who’s big and strong, you have Pascoe, you have Vernon Davis. Those are three receivers right there who can outmuscle a defender. And while Delanie Walker gets criticized as being smaller than the other tight ends, he’s bigger than wide receivers. So if he’s used as a wideout, or a third tight end, he offers even more size on the field. Plus, if Robinson sticks with the club he’s got the girth to pound it after he catches the ball. Gore isn’t the ideal receiver but he’s no slouch, and in the OTAs Norris was even running patterns out of the backfield.
In short, instead of JTO dropping back seven steps to connect with a wideout but getting sacked and sacked and ending up out of field goal range I expect a Raye offense to use the size and strength to pound it down other teams’ throats. Opposing linebackers will be faced with big receivers either running patterns or downfield blocking for a couple of brutal running backs. As one local sports show guy’s drop goes, “Pound it, pound it, pound it.”
by Bob On The Coast on May 31, 2009 8:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on this one Bob
Even Vernon Davis can be split and motion to block or run a route. Bear, Walker, and Davis can all be great around the goaline. Unfortunately this is where I feel Gore struggles the most around the goaline. I know last year was the Martz issue and maybe even a worse OC the year before. But in the season he had 312 att’s he had 8 TD’s, I think Coffee will have the most Goal Line TD’s, because I think a lot of players will be utilized in the Redzone.
1 Coffee
2 Davis
3 Morgan
4 Bear
M. S. #50
by rlott#42 on May 31, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's terrible.
Martz and JTO are the main reason for such a terrible ranking. Bad calls by Martz and happy feet with JTO put them out of position (S. Hill scored 11 td in the red zone out of a total of 13 TDs). And when they tried to run, they got stuff. Another problem (OL).Now here’s a surprise pick, Brandon Jones. Why? Although he was used as a 3rd down rec., he caught over 20 1st down passes in 43 catches. He knows the short routes and may have the ability to separate from the defender in the red zone. Could be a available tool. If they’re to run, then the OL has got to open up the holes.They will also have to use the 2 back set in the 1st and goal situations.That should give Gore 10 TDs if it works. With such good Recievers, they will be able to put them in good position to either score or in the red zone. I see a better season/ranking than last year.
by LASVEGASNINER on May 31, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here arrives Mr. Pessimistic
Now here’s a surprise pick, Brandon Jones. Why? Although he was used as a 3rd down rec., he caught over 20 1st down passes in 43 catches. He knows the short routes and may have the ability to separate from the defender in the red zone. Could be a available tool. If they’re to run, then the OL has got to open up the holes.They will also have to use the 2 back set in the 1st and goal situations
Brandon Jones ..41 Rec and 25 1st downs that’s 61.0% (only 1 TD)
Bryant Johnson ..45 Rec and 28 1st downs that’s 62.2%
Bryant Johnson had only 3 TDs but they were all 8 yards and under, add that onto the fact Johnson is 6’3 and Jones is 6’1 Johnson would of been a more formidable goaline WR.
by supraman on May 31, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To go deeper
Brandon Jones: 3 receptions inside the 20 yard line last year, 37 yards and one TD.
Bryant Johnson: 3 receptions inside the 10 yard line last year, 8 yards and 3 TDs.
Seems like Johnson was more of a go to guy in the red zone than Jones was, especially in the goal-to-go situations that Fooch mentioned down in the comments. Of course, 3 receptions is not a good sample size at all, but it is interesting nonetheless.
by Cruithear on May 31, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note: Jones had 0 receptions inside the 10.
by Cruithear on May 31, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
I’m bored so:
1st and 3 at SEA 3 (1:46) J.O’Sullivan pass short left to B.Johnson for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 12 17
Down by 11, 1:46 left in the first half.
2nd and 2 at SL 2 (:37) S.Hill pass short left to B.Johnson for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 3 34
Up by 25, a mere :37 left in the first half.
2nd and 3 at NYJ 3 (6:12) S.Hill pass short left to B.Johnson for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 14 23
Up by 3, 6:12 left in the game.
As for Brandon Jones’ one play,
2nd and 8 at JAX 13 (9:17) K.Collins pass short middle to B.Jones for 13 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 9 14
Down by 11, 9:17 left in the 3rd. Penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct in the play. Still, read as a short pass, means he had some YAC on the play instead of making a play in traffic in the endzone. I can’t for the life of me find a video for that play though, so if anyone knows feel free to post!
by Cruithear on May 31, 2009 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting
nice work
Morgan breaks through in 2009!
by grantmp on Jun 1, 2009 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I mention,
A surprise pick and where is Johnson now. Oh Yea, he got cut. Lets wait and see what happens. I will use anyone that will help score TDs and win games.
by LASVEGASNINER on Jun 1, 2009 5:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This argument was merely that Johnson was a better red zone receiver. Jones had around a +3% DVOA whereas Johnson had around a -3%, so by last years stats and performance, Jones is the better receiver.
by Cruithear on Jun 1, 2009 5:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lookin for that one guy
Jones was used between to the 20s yard line. He has shown to have good hands, runs the short routed well and hardly fumbles. With theses abilitiies, he seems to be a player who can step up and play in that role. Right now, we got a bunch of good rec., but no one has proven to be the go to guy. VD hasn’t prove it, although he’ll have an opportunity to do so.
by LASVEGASNINER on Jun 1, 2009 6:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Jones was used much closer to the 20 than to the goal line, meaning that there may have been a question of his ability to pull a ball down in traffic. 0 catches inside the 10 may indicate some issue, but it is such a small sample size that it is hard to argue for or against. It is, though, something that does spark interest.
Bruce has absolutely proven himself to be a go-to guy, but I think with all our weapons that the ball will be spread around more than fired repeatedly at one receiver.
by Cruithear on Jun 1, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you have to consider that
The titans also ran the ball a lot more than us. They also had more success running. Also Chris Johnson and Lendale White got reception as well
by iaalexeeff on Jun 1, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I really like the weapons we have on offense. Very excited about a 2 tight end set with Big Bear and Vernon who are both huge redzone threats as well as our young receiving corps with crazy potential. Cant wait to see crabtree in action. I have always felt since the moment we picked him up that Brandon Jones is gonna be a great addition and should see alot of playing time. This is a good dilema the niners have of which recievers to play!
If you ask me we have a number of powerful potentially dominating offensive weapons that fit perfectly into the style of play Coach Sing is targeting. I LITERALLY can’t wait to see our offense (sing/raye) in action!!!!!
by 49ers4lyfe on Jun 1, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Red zone vs. goal to go
Here’s an interesting stat I didn’t include above: While the team was pretty awful in the red zone, on goal to go (so inside the 10), the 49ers were actually 19th in the league. Not great, but a pretty big improvement over the red zone as a whole.
by Fooch on May 31, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More reasons to be excited
Just think how many games could we have won last season if we could have just turned even half of those field goals into TDs? Not having to play from behind, having momentum, and playing confidence early in the game goes a long way. Think the Dallas game.
It was so hard having to watch us drive all the way down the field only to hit a brick wall in the red zone. But if our players step up and are utilized like Raye should, we can put lots of pressure on teams that consider us an easy win. Maybe we can open up some eyes (yeah you, top ESPN analysts).
by agchee on May 31, 2009 10:06 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, didn't mean that
The Maimi game was one I remember. At the goal line with O sec left…Lost 10 to 7.
by LASVEGASNINER on May 31, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that one too!
I felt good early in the game against Dallas. I believe we went down the field on the opening drive but had to walk away with 3. Defense got the stop and we marched down again and had to take another 3. We could’ve been up 14-0 in the 1st quarter. What would that have done to the moral in Dallas?? …. and then it all turned to anger once we we got stomped in the 2nd half.
by agchee on May 31, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way
for a repeat of last year. By the way, check out Jones stats. Very impressive. out of 112 catches, 75 were for 1st downs with 1 fumble. Avg. 12.7 yds per catch. He would make a good red zone reciever .I wonder what Sing and McC got in their plans for him?
by LASVEGASNINER on May 31, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still dissapointing
in that caption by vernon davis. “Tony said Jimmy would take care of ME and make sure I get the ball”
still doesn’t sound like a team first guy
If you had a lineup of 9 Jack Custs who hit(Cust career average) .239 AVG, .382 OBP, and .475 SLG, then your team would score 6.12 runs per game-totalling to 991runs a season.The 08 rangers lead the majors in runs score with 901.
by 9Custs on May 31, 2009 10:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but what was the context?
I mean, depending on what he was asked, or how he was asked, anything can come out sounding bad. Remember, this is the guy who said he’d be a great tackle, and tackles never get the ball.
Also, athletes generally are all self-centered no matter how much they otherwise comport themselves in public so maybe Davis is just a little more glib than others. Every athlete who plays thinks he’s better than the guy he faces. That’s just the nature of the business. That self-centeredness translates into self-confidence on the field.
I mean, we have a quarterback in the division who recently visited Santa Clara who seems to think God’s got his phone number on speed dial. Thinking that Heaven has a grand scheme for the NFC West strikes me as a little self-important considering what else is going on in the world. VD wants the ball. That’s great, as long as he catches it.
by Bob On The Coast on May 31, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
regardless of whether he is a me-first guy or not, context matters
If the question was something like “Talk about the conversations you’ve had with Jimmy Raye” and Davis came out with this, I’d be a bit concerned; but if the question was “Do you think you’ll see more passes under Jimmy Raye than you did under Martz” I’d be less concerned.
Morgan breaks through in 2009!
by grantmp on Jun 1, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we have good size!
id run a 2 TE set in the red zone. VD is 6’3, pascoe is 6’5 and can also block if we run/trick play, crabtree is 6’2/6’3, jones 6’1…..also nate davis was tried out by teams as a WR and QB, at 6’2 he could be another option at WR in the red zone or in the wild cat.
having coffee to pound the ball up the gut should make teams stack the box
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on May 31, 2009 4:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Size
Good point, we’ve assembled a beastly team. I’m excited about seeing the team in person at training camp.
by goatfather on Jun 1, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's the story with Moran Norris?
Can anybody tell me (I’m kind of a newcomer) how come nobody mentions Norris much? Bob mentions him in the first comment here, but he barely rates a mention in articles like this … http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/05/19/gore-ready-to-carry-workload-for-49ers/. Is he likely to get much playing time in 2009? It seems that Gore wants to play every down but when people discuss the options to relieve workload on him, Coffee gets more mentions even though he’s a rookie?
by LondonNiner on Jun 1, 2009 4:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Starting FB
I’m assuming since he’s the starting FB on a running between the tackles team he’ll have plenty to do with our success. I for one was really pissed when Nolan let him go, so we could keep Keasey?! I know it was a “fit” for Martz, but that guy seriously is not worthy of the NFL. Ivy league white dudes with dreads do not impress me.
by goatfather on Jun 1, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Keasey
If:
we keep Hill, Smith, Davis, Huard
we keep Gore, Coffee, Sheets, Clayton
also depending on the number of o-lineman, d-linemen,LBs and DBs. Not sure on those numbers though
by iaalexeeff on Jun 1, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even...
… if the 49ers didn’t keep Huard, Keasey won’t make the roster. The only reason the 49ers keep four HBs (that don’t include Robinson) is because they couldn’t decide between Sheets/Clayton. I just don’t think there is any reason for keeping Keasey but not keeping Robinson instead.
by sfgfan on Jun 1, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
I like the dreads but we have a lot more depth this year than last year. The only reason he would be on the roster if there were some injuries and we signed him after we cut him
by iaalexeeff on Jun 1, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Norris
As a fullback, won’t be competing with anyone for playtime. He’ll likely be on the field alongside RBs Gore or Coffee in every situation except 3WR or 2TE sets.
You’re still picking up on American football, yes? The fullback position is generally the most under-appreciated in the game. Every team will have one, but few teams carry more than the one guy. We don’t mention him much because we, like most NFL fans, have a habit of taking the FB position for granted. You don’t notice how vital they are until (like last year) you don’t really have one.
Fullbacks usually play in 60-70% of the offensive snaps, knock someone’s teeth out on every single play and still gets paid just a fraction of the halfbacks who follow his lead. It’s a tough life for those cats.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 1, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FBs
A lot of people don’t like running in football as much as passing. I love FBs because I play Madden a lot and I like to open up the pass with the run. I hope Norris can immensely help our run game. Can’t wait to see Gore and Coffee break some big runs
by iaalexeeff on Jun 1, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
Hi schlecko – that’s a really good explanation, thanks. Appreciate your patience with a relative newcomer. It’s funny actually – I loved the game, and the Niners, growing up in the 1980s in the UK, but only now, having re-discovered the game after 20 years ignoring it (I went to the Saints-Chargers game in London last year, and quickly fell back in love with this brilliant game, and quickly re-discovered the Niners) I find myself, as an adult, much more interested in the finer points of what is actually going on.
I think I did confuse the full-back position with the running-back – I don’t think that when I watched Rathman and Craig back in the day, I quite gathered the difference between their positions. But this is a great forum for me to learn more about the game ahead of cheering the Niners into the post-season in the forthcoming season!
by LondonNiner on Jun 2, 2009 1:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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