Last Chance for Vernon
by Redding49ers on Jun 24, 2009 2:16 PM PDT
64 comments
I don't know about you, but I was excited by the Vernon Davis pick a few years ago. We desperately needed a playmaker and, I think it was Mike Nolan (correct me if i'm wrong) said, "not only is he the best tight end in the draft but the best receiver too." Well that has not turned out to be the case.
I'm not going to get into numbers, because we all no there not good. Each year we keep hearing about how much he has progressed and each year he come's up short. The part that gets me is his attitude. I can specifically remember him catching a 4 yard pass in a PRESEASON game and taunting Shaw(u)n Merriman "lights out."
So hear we are in 2009. We have a offensive coach who will use the tight end. We have a good running back and a good set of wideouts. There is no excuse for him not to come up with his best season. And if he doesn't what are our options moving forward.
There have been some suggestions, which started out as humorous, to convert him to another position. So I leave it up to you, Niner Nation, if VD sucks this year and never learns how to read defenses what do we do?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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VD vs. Bear
The Bear is listening. Lets see who pushes who !
by LASVEGASNINER on Jun 24, 2009 2:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Can't play with them...
Can’t win with them
by FanBelge on Jun 24, 2009 3:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Davis is a good TE
He’s not the dynamic receiving threat everybody thought he would be but as a complete package he’s a very good TE. There’s absolutely no reason to cut ties with or covert him.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 24, 2009 4:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This.
He’s no top 10 pick, but he is more than definitely an adequate TE. People are hopping on the Pascoe bandwagon a little quick here. The guy has yet to participate in his first training camp.
by sfgfan on Jun 24, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Pascoe looks good in camp. Lawdy-fricken-dah! Lets see how he does when we’re actually playing. As for Vernon, if he can polish his route running and make a few less drops he will be a top-10 TE. He is already the best blocking TE in the game. The other skills need to catch up.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 24, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guilty of jumping on the Bear bandwagon
But it was more because of his background/history/highlights/fact that his name is Bear. I truely expect VD to be not just the #1 TE, but the #1 TE by far, without question. Bear is an interesting wrinkle, and I really am pulling for him to be successful in the NFL, but do I expect him to be better than the Duke? Absolutely not.
Blind devotion.
by ProfessorBigelow on Jun 25, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bear does have the Brent Jones look and spark to him
But we’ll see. It’s going to take a couple years for him to really develop I think.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 25, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"He is already the best blocking TE in the game."
Not really.
Pass Blocking – Across the NFL in 2008 TEs were kept in to block an average of 16% of passing playing. Because of the paucity of the 49er OL protection, Vernon was kept in 30% of the time (by far the most among regular players) and gave up a creditable, although hardly awesome 4 sacks, 1 hit and 5 pressures. In fact it was about bang on the NFL average for a TE. In comparison (in the 8 Bengals games we’ve analysed to date) Reggie Kelly has given up precisely nothing; he on average stays in to block on 24% of passing plays.
Run Blocking – Vernon graded out as "Above Average" when compared to other NFL TEs as a runblocker…How does he compare to other current TEs as a run blocker? On post benching form he’d be near the top of list but still would be a little way off Alge Crumpler in Tennessee or Ben Hartsock in Atlanta among others. – PFF
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 27, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the combo of VD and Bear
And Delanie Walker. I like the Niners TE group this year, and I think Pascoe stands a good shot at having an excellent rookie season, regardless of what VD does. Also, I think VD will have a great chance to flourish in this system, let’s hope it happens.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 24, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Potentially the best TE Corp. in the NFL?
1 thru 3 it might be tough to find a better grouping in the NFL. So the Niners have that going for them.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 25, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I think hard
I’d be able to mention very few notable TE combinations/trios. Of course, this can be attributed to being a Niner fan, and not giving much of a damn about other teams depth at tight end.
I think the Red Zone offense in San Francisco will be very efficient this season. Much of the success will rely on the tight ends ability to block in the run game, but pose viable threats in the pass attack as well. Pascoe is a big target, VD is a freakish athlete, and Delanie played WR in college. It will be fun to watch the grinders go to work, it actually feels like we’re following a throwback team.
Hit ’em in the mouth, even when they know its coming.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 25, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Witten/Martellus Bennett.
Brandon Manamaluena/Antonio Gates.
Bo Scaife/Alge Crumpler
Tony Gonzalez/Ben Hartsock
Heath Miller/Mark Spaeth
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 27, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d take Shockey/Miller over our TE’s, also
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 27, 2009 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 thru 3
I didn’t say 1 thru 2. People on here have high hopes for Pascoe.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 29, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have high hopes for Pascoe, too; he's awesome and I wanted the Seahawks to draft him.
But having the best ‘3 TE grouping’ is pretty useless, considering the fact that 3 TEs almost never see the field at the same time, and several teams don’t even carry 3 TEs on their main roster. That, and it’s pretty hard to justify the 49ers having the top TEs grouping anyway; even if all of them work out, they’re still wholly average.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 29, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even sure the value of your second TE.
I mean, really … either your second TE is a blocker who you only throw to because the other team would never expect you to throw to him, so sometimes he’s wide open on short-yardage stuff OR your second TE is really a converted WR who you’re putting in there hoping the other team will try to cover him with a LB.
It might be the least important position that sees any sort of regular playing time.
by Ronaldinho on Jun 29, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"But having the best ‘3 TE grouping’ is pretty useless"
So are 95% of the discussions on here. I just reaching for some kind of minor bragging right. It was a stretch and I know that and it really doesn’t mean much but who really cares?
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 30, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's really the point now
He is a good NFL TE.
by bignerd on Jun 30, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You will be shocked
I expect him to blow up I think he is maturing and I think Shaun Hill and Coach Sing has his respect so he will listen learn and help us win. I see a pro-bowl and playoffs this year.
by Mr. Jesse From Anchorage, AK on Jun 24, 2009 6:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Last chance? Or else what?
First of all, VD is an excellent run-blocker, and very good in pass protection. So the notion that he’s somehow done for if he’s not a great receiver is just silly. The guy is going to have a long career in this league, barring injury. It’s only a question of what that career is going to look like.
People like to talk about the numbers, but like all football numbers, they need to be evaluated in context.
Here are the stats of three rookie tight ends. I’ve normalized them out to 16 games to make the comparisons easier. eg, if a player only played 10 games, I multipled all his numbers by 1.6 to get his projected number of 16 games, rounding all fractional items down.
C YD TD
1) 33 368 2
2) 32 424 4
3) 25 414 2
Those three players in their rookie years are Tony Gonzales, Vernon Davis, and ANtonio Gates.
In 2007 Vernon improved his output, catching more balls for more yards. And he did that despite PLAYING FOR THE WORST PASSING TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.
The Niners had the fewest passing yards of any team by over 300 yards. To put that in context, if we passed for 300 more yards, we still would have been in last place, but had the team above us (Oakland) passed for 300 more yards, they would have leapfrogged four teams in the standings. 30% more passing yards wouldn’t have gotten us out of the bottom ten!
So we see Vernon putting up decent stats on a historically bad passing team. And you’re pointing the finger at Vernon? That’s moronic.
Last year, Vernon’s stats declined, but that was largely because he was very rarely used as a receiver.
ANd that brings up another point, the so-called headcase factor. Now, it’s absolutely true that Vernon has picked up more than his share of dumb after-the-while penalties in his three years, and that’s a problem that needs to be fixed. He seems to get in a fight with a teammate every preseason, which isn’t a positive. But you call this guy a headcase, and I say, look at what else he did on the field:
When the team chose not to use him as a receiving threat, he went out and busted his ass to be one of the best-blocking tight ends in the league.
That is NOT headcase behavior. Nor is staying after preseason practices to run routes with the QB, which he has done EVERY year. That is exactly what you want to see from a player like him. He had every excuse to pout or whine last season, and he didn’t. Instead, he pancaked opposing linebackers to open holes for the running game.
I agree that this is an important year for Davis. It’ll be his first year since his rookie year where he’s in an offense that a) isn’t epically bad passing or b) seems prepared to use him appropriately. It might, quite frankly, be the first year where he has a real opportunity to shine.
Because the truth is, it’s hard to imagine that any receiving tight end would have looked any better on this team than he did in either of the last two years. If you can’t evaluate the context of his performance, then you really have no place evaluating receiving talent in the NFL.
by Ronaldinho on Jun 24, 2009 9:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree 100%
BUT, I think the original poster was referring to Vernon Davis’ last chance with the 49ERS…..if he doesn’t perform well this year he won’t get a contract extension.
by chikmagnet_565 on Jun 25, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but...
it’s not as though the 49ers will be unwilling to re-sign him. If he jets via free agency, I’d imagine it would be because some team out there is still willing to pay him first round money on the hopes that his potential will finally turn him into that monster receiving threat that we thought he could be when we drafted him. Our offer, on the other hand, would more accurately reflect the player he has been, rather than the player he might still some day be.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 25, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basically
I don’t see why a lot of people think the Niners are adversed to resigning Davis. He obviously hasn’t been what they thought he would be but’s he’s still a good TE and a valuable player to any team.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 25, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
He probably wants to get paid like a 1st round TE (what he should be) , not a “good” TE (what he really is)
by chikmagnet_565 on Jun 26, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pure speculation
Who knows what kind of numbers he’ll put up this year. Maybe he prices himself above what the Niners want to pay but the fact remains that the he is a good TE and the Niners will definitely try to resign him.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 26, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Money, Money, Money, Money!
I agree that his future with the 49ers probably has more to do with the money than his performance. Will someone else try to pay him a salary more fitting for a receiving, touchdown machine, tight-end? I doubt it. I wouldn’t.
by The Squatch on Jun 27, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 2007 Vernon improved his output…
you know he was injured for a good portion of 2006, right?
not saying you’re wrong, i dont blame him either. just pointing out that almost anyone would have caught more passes the next year simply by staying healthy.
I take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.
by these3words on Jun 26, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was injured for six games.
And his output improved even if you – as I did above – project his rookie numbers to a full 16 games.
by Ronaldinho on Jun 26, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be a tough year for VD
With a better receivers, better route receivers and Gore running the excape route, this could be a tough year for him. S.F. is now loaded with options in case he mishandles his position and mind. Such a physical talent ! I just cann’t see him gone yet! That will depend on him.
by LASVEGASNINER on Jun 25, 2009 8:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Tough year?
This is probably the best he’s been set up to succeed since he’s been with the Niners.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 25, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Team success only improves VD's chances for success
Hang on a second—the fact that the Niners have better WR’s is BAD (!?) for Davis? So when Morgan/Crabtree/Bruce has safety help over the top on one side and one of those 3 has it on the other, this is going to make the seams in the middle of the field smaller? No, I’d say that this will rather make it easier for VD to have success penetrating the middle of the defense.
Everybody knows that when lots of people are scoring, VD is able to have a greater impact…
Morgan breaks through in 2009!
by grantmp on Jun 25, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
double entendre -- anyone? Anyone?
Everybody knows that when lots of people are scoring, VD is able to have a greater impact…
Morgan breaks through in 2009!
by grantmp on Jun 26, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quote " That will depend on him" Unquote.
Quote “mishandle his position and mind” Unquote.
by LASVEGASNINER on Jun 26, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
65 out 92 votes says
Or 70.65% says cut him, right tackle or pass rusher. This is how much confidences the fans have in him. I personally think he can suceed, but if he doesn’t, do what’s best for the team. So don’t misunderstand me when I say , " It could be a tough year for VD" !
by LASVEGASNINER on Jun 26, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then evidently 70% of the fans on NN ...
… are idiots.
Look, the fanbase is fickle. They have it in their head that, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, that VD is a bad receiver – but the moment he starts making some good catches, they’ll forget about that.
There’s a reason why your average fan isn’t hired to be a GM.
by Ronaldinho on Jun 26, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
All the options on the poll are pretty stupid and I feel lame for even voting for giving him another chance. He doesn’t need another chance. He’s already proven that he’s a starting NFL caliber TE. Cutting ties with him ASAP makes zero sense, whether you like him or not he’s by far the Niners best option at TE. Do all of you Bear fans really think Pascoe is going to be more of a receiving threat than Davis next year? Converting him to a RT or OLB/DE is even more ridiculous. I feel stupider just for having to rebut thoughts like that.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 26, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently you're just as clueless as 70% of NN
Vernon is succeeding in the NFL. Maybe he’s not succeeding in what you think is football but that’s not his fault that you don’t really know what football is.
NEWS FLASH: Vernon Davis plays TE not WR and as a TE he is doing his job very well. Stop knocking him because he’s not living up to his game breaking hype. So apparently he wasn’t worth the 6th pick overall nothing the Niners can do about that now but he’s still a very well rounded TE and a definite asset to the Niners.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 26, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "toughness" of this year on Vernon doesn't depend on him
His production will most certainly depend on him but all the external factors that are in play should prove to be beneficial to his success. He’s got a OC that knows how to use a TE unlike Martz and hopefully a QB that can distribute the ball with some kind of aptitude. He’s being set up to succeed more this year than he has in the past so it shouldn’t be a “tough” year for him. Whether he can capitalize on the opportunity will totally be up to him.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 26, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Vernan's to lose.....
As the incumbant starting TE for the Niners, everything will fall on his shoulders. The excuses are gone and time is short. Yes, as a player out of Maryland everyone looked at his blazing speed and soft hands. We thought; “What a great addition to the team this guy will be.” Yet, just like that QB whose name I won’t mention, he has been caught between idiot O. Coordinators and injuries. But, now, with this “NEW” Coordinator, he’s supposed to turn everything around? Possible. But, a difficult field to plow. Especially with this gang of fans. Unless he’s putting up HUGE numbers, most fans will think of this as a complete bust. I on the other hand disagreee. We finally have a QB situation that may not be the best, but, is a least settled….for now. Working more with Hill will give Vernan the type of confidence that was shared with Montana and Jones. So….for those ready to jettison a good player, prepare to eat massive amounts of crow when Vernan finally takes off.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
by DarkkStarr1 on Jun 26, 2009 11:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd resign vernon right now based on what he has been and come out on top!!
He will be the number 2 TE of the whole league, maybe number 1
M. S. #50
by rlott#42 on Jun 27, 2009 9:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
In what way?
And based off of what?
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 27, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Should have been more specific
Yards, Td’s, yac yards. Pro Bowl year for him and big year for the Niners. Gonzalez matured into one of the best tight ends in the league under Raye. Vernon’s tackle-breaking ability and speed that are, IMO, better than Gonzalez ‘at any point in his career is where the confidence coes from. He doesn’t have the hands, but Davis is explosive. This is the first year we won’t be disappointed after having strong expectations for him. Teams know he is there and they won’t see him coming and we have the Rams twice. Vernon’s “BREAKOUT YEAR” is upon us!!
M. S. #50
by rlott#42 on Jun 27, 2009 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, really?
You think Davis will lead all Tight Ends in the league in rec yards, TD’s and YAC?
Hmm. Okay >_>
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 27, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
mass potential
I believe that Vernon is still a good TE. He has shown that he is good and when under a good QB. At the end of last year once Singletary began coaching i saw very good strides from him. Seeing that we also have Crabtree, that will take a lot of attention off everyone else .So i say that he will still be a star TE.
by Ya Boy Vic on Jun 27, 2009 4:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
top 10
If VD can become a top 10 TE I would be really happy. Even top 15 and I think he would be worth resigning. He is a beast at getting YAC so give him some short passes and let him run!
Pizza is the best. Also, go 9ers!
by iaalexeeff on Jun 27, 2009 10:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
so give him some short passes and let him run!
Yeah…..sometimes he starts running without securing the ball on those plays.
Dude needs a lot of work.
If VD can become a top 10 TE I would be really happy. Even top 15 and I think he would be worth resigning.
duh
by chikmagnet_565 on Jun 28, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem I have with that criteria is how a TE is ranked in the Top 10. The position doesn’t produce a lot of numbers. Some guys are on the list for catching a few passes each week but hardly have an impact on a game. VD can disappear in games but he can also be the reason the team wins a game.
by bignerd on Jun 30, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I have to say is......
VD is a great tight end/receiver who can turn it up the field and run people over (did I mention he is fast as hell for his size) WHEN HE’S NOT BEING USED AS A BLOCKER!!!!!! And to the jackass who wrote this post doubting my mans skills, HE TAUNTED SHAUN MERRIMAN IN THE PRE-SEASON GAME BECAUSE THEY WENT TO SCHOOL TOGETHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS. HOW DO I KNOW THIS……..I HAD CLASS WITH BOTH OF THEM. Get your facts straight before you start blasting our players.
(this is just like blasting A. Smith when the OL can’t keep him off his ass, he had no one to throw too, and a new coordinator every year) NO MERCY i guess……………………..
by 49ers4lyfe on Jun 30, 2009 12:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
well
id we doesnt do great this year (and i mean GREAT), i say we let him go while hes still young and worth something
by nhlogan on Jun 30, 2009 4:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wait, what?
“If he isn’t astoundingly awesome this year, we should release him while he’s still pretty good and potentially more than that”?
…huh.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 30, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's trying to say that his trade value would be at it's peak.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jun 30, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
if its obvious hes not worth our money then why not use him to get someone else? especially seeing as how we just signed that a new TE in Bear Pascoe
by nhlogan on Jul 1, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not like he's getting paid franchise QB money.
And it’s not like we need to free up cap space. Forgive my bluntness, but cutting a “good” NFL TE for no reason other than the hopes that a TE that was a surprise to go in the 6th round will even develop into an NFL starter is just stupid.
Trading him would essentially have the same effect, as it is likely that no team would give up starting talent or first-day picks to get him.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jul 1, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
VD is the truth
He didn’t really have much balls thrown to him up until the second half of the season. He didn’t put up big numbers but he’s a threat just being on the field. If the Niners utilize him the correct way this year watch how much of a big contributor he will be!
by Roncgree on Jul 3, 2009 12:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Guys read the article about VD in the Sacramento Bee...
Says alot about our coaching the last few years.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jul 3, 2009 7:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Link to the article . . . you don’t have to convince me about the offensive coaching the past few years.
by bignerd on Jul 4, 2009 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry I thought I linked it.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jul 6, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is it
http://www.sacbee.com/sf49ers/story/1994550.html
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jul 6, 2009 3:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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