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Holding...Offense...10 yard penalty, replay first down: Ahhhh nuts!

While poking around SB Nation I came across a post at Field Gulls linking to a very interesting article about holding penalties.    It basically argues about the value of taking a holding penalty on a given pass play.  It utilizes a whole bunch of equations that are way over my head and concludes that:

The bottom line is that the probability of detection at which committing holding is worthwhile is when it is about 4/5 the chance a pass rusher will get a sack if he beats his blocker. For argument's sake, say that a pass rusher in the backfield gets a sack half the time. The probability of detection would need to be below 0.4 for the hold to make sense.

When I read over this it reminded of the old YouTube video of Kwame Harris and all his various penalties and general screw-ups.  Unfortunately it's no longer available online because of the copyright issues.  Such a shame.

I post this now for a few reasons.  First off, I think it's an interesting take on the subject of penalties.  Second, I'm curious how holding is handled by the 49ers offensive line coach.  Seeing as this can apply to any offensive line, do we have any former high school or college o-linemen who could contribute to this discussion?  Basically I'm curious how coaches address the idea of holding since it really seems to happen on most plays, but is obviously not called every time.

The final reason I bring it up is to get some feedback from everybody on some ideas I have.  Thanks to the power of DVR I can record every game and watch it over and over again with great ease (I still have the 49ers-Packers TO catch game from when NFLN showed it a few months ago).  I'm thinking that we can use these recordings each week to get a better idea of stats that aren't really accumulated anywhere on a regular basis.  I'm talking primarily about penalties on different players.  You can find that information sometimes but it's a real pain in the butt to locate.

So, I'm thinking I'll start keeping track of that kind of thing on a regular basis.  Each week I'll provide the numbers on player penalties for the past game and cumulative to date.  However, I was curious what other random stuff people would like to see accumulated from the recorded games.  Are there any particular stats that would be relatively easy to track, but are not readily available anywhere?  We've got some time left before the season starts, but now is as good a time as any to start planning for the upcoming season.

0 recs  |  Comment 13 comments |

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I'd be interested to see how our downfield blockers do

mostly the WRs but others as well.

I read that Bruce was a pretty crappy blocker and I’m wondering if that’s true

by foosball4949 on Jun 28, 2009 9:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

blocking

I’ll see what we can do with that. That’s definitely a tough one to track given the camera angles, but I agree that it’d be something useful to check out.

by Fooch on Jun 28, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, camera angles really rob us of that kind of information.

Often times the most interesting battles on the field are the ones that take place in the secondary – corners and safeties against downfield receivers. Unfortunately, those are also the parts of the game that television viewers don’t get to watch unless there’s a specific replay to show it.

My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.

by shlecko on Jun 28, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

agree

One cool option would be to have multiple cameras shooting different parts of the field and then you could have a sort of picture in picture any time you wanted, rather than just when the networks decide to show it. I bet people would pay extra for that kind of thing. Given the nature of this site I’d pay for it. You could learn a lot more about a team’s performance that way.

by Fooch on Jun 28, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree

who films the film that coaches look at? team employees?

by foosball4949 on Jul 2, 2009 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That Kwame Harris video...

Is one of the most entertaining things I’ve watched on Youtube…

At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.

by TrojanCBB on Jun 28, 2009 10:22 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Holding as taught by my HS Coach

I played Guard on varsity, tackle early on in HS. Our coaches never blatantly told us to hold. They instructed us more to get our thumbs underneath their pads, which would push their pads into their throat (sounds bad, but not actually hurting guys TOO much.) The most important thing to do as a linemen (whatever side of the ball) is to get lower than the other guy for leverage and ultimately win the war. Of course holding did occur often, especially since we were on the smaller size as linemen (I played at 6’1" 240lbs, second biggest on my line, but our center was only 190lbs.) Ref’s look for the stretching of jersey when calling holding, so the key is to grab a handful of jersey when you are trying to get leverage and keep the guy in front of you. If he moves to the side while you are holding, the refs will catch it and you.

by Pearlsofwisdom on Jun 28, 2009 11:07 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

thanks

Always good to get the pearls of wisdom…ok that was pretty bad. But this is one of the reasons I opened this thread.

by Fooch on Jun 28, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey good

info, It is good to get some good insight from a players point of view. Any other player or coach input on this and other penalty calls such as illeagle use of the hands, offsides (preventing and causing), pass interferance ( how to avoid the call or induce the call)

by WC-Ninerhead on Jun 28, 2009 12:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

what a lame conclusion on holding!

I’m a hs football official and officials could probably find legit penalties on every play, whether it be at the hs level or pro level. We are taught to call the penalties at the point of attack (unless it is blatantly obvious). For example, if there is a run to the right side, we probably will not call holding on the left tackle unless it affected the play. Therefore, it would rarely be advantageous to hold when it matters most.

by ninersnerd on Jun 28, 2009 4:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’ve been playing football in Germany since 1992, OL (all five positions) since 2001 (been on the defensive side before that). Currently I’m on a botttom feeder team in the second division, but I have playing experience on all levels of competition in Germany; from the lowest divisions, where teams wouldn’t be able to hold their own against a decent JV squad, to the first division, the so-called GFL, were there are some teams that feature former NFL Europe players or (in rare cases) NFL third-stringers.

One thing I can tell from all these years is that with higher level of play, the number of holding calls goes down. That might be due to the fact that better-coached players don’t commit stupid or blatant penalties, but I would assume it has more to do with the better quality of officiating.

As ninersnerd wrote above, officials are taught not to call penalties that have nothing to do with the play. Another aspect is that not every grabbing of cloth is an illegal hold, and inexperienced officials might have trouble differentiating between legal and illegal.

If I’m an OT, and my team is running to the inside, I will push the DE’s inside shoulder back while grabbing his jersey underneath the outside shoulder and pulling that shoulder towards me, so I can get him turned and position myself inside of him – between him and the play. In my understanding of the rule, that is not holding – I would compare it to a DL grabbing an OL’s jersey by the shoulder and yanking it down while performing a swim move with the other arm. But an inexperienced official who just sees me grab cloth might decide to call it a holding.

In the pass-happy NFL, with all their special regulations to encourage passing (and offense in general), I would assume that officials are taught to take a very generous stance towards holding and only call really blatant penalties.

Furthermore, I can imagine NFL coaches telling their offensive linemen to take the penalty on pass plays rather than let themselves get beaten, to avoid hits on the QB and protect the huge investment that is usually made in that position. If that is the case, I would expect to see more holding penalties on pass plays than on run plays – does anybody have statistical data to back that assumption up or dismiss it?

Then again, you would have to take into account that, while on run plays nearly every offensive player is (or should be) trying to block a defender, on pass plays half of the offense is trying to separate from defenders. So if stats show that the percentage of holding calls on pass and run is about equal, that would already support my assumption, given that there are more players on run plays that could possibly commit a holding (or you would have to look at holding penalties that are called on offensive linemen only in order to make a real comparison).

by musketeer54 on Jun 28, 2009 8:53 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree

The OL is probably more likely to commit a holding penalty on a passing play because it is normally a tougher blocking assignment. They generally have to hold their blocks longer and it is easier to block while attacking or forcing yourself forward than it is to defend by moving backwards.

musketeer54- your example is exactly what I meant when I said you can find a penalty on every play…technically it can be called holding because you are grabbing the opponents jersey to gain an advantage, but that doesn’t mean that it should be called! In your example, as an official, I am taught only to make that call if the defender gets away from you, you continue to grab his jersey, and by doing so your arm is extended. So it is the extension of the arm while grabbing that will get you in trouble. As long as you are grabbing a jersey, within the shoulder pads, without extending your arms, it should not be flagged.

by ninersnerd on Jun 29, 2009 8:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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