NN All-Time Team Part 2: 49ers All-Time Wide Receiver #2
by Fooch on Jun 29, 2009 12:00 PM PDT
in All-Time Team
118 comments
The headline is really awkward, but from here on out I'll be dropping the first half of it. This is just to get folks on the same page with the balloting.
In restarting the voting on our list of all-time 49ers, I thought we should start with a position that a year ago created quite a bit of controversy in the end result: the 49ers #2 wide receiver. The #1 wide receiver is as obvious as you're going to get with this team: Jerry Rice. Rather than replay the automatic selections, we're sticking with the ones where voting actually took place. Also, depending on how many votes we accumulate in the next couple days, I'd like to try and post two of these per week: one Monday and one Thursday. We'll give it a test run this week.
After a neck and neck race, John Taylor pulled away from Terrell Owens to win by 25 votes, or 7%. The comments went back and forth between those two drawing on both on and off the field issues. Two of the main schools of thought to emerge were: 1) TO was a phenomenally talented wide receiver and simply better than JT, and 2) even if he was talented, he was a jackass.
This is one of the positions that inspired me to bring back the all-time team ballot. We had 377 total votes for the #2 wide receiver position, which is a number I know we can surpass this time around. And more votes increases the sample size, hopefully providing a clearer answer. So, below I've copied over the brief write-ups on each of the receivers on the ballot.
Terrell Owens (1996-2003): Oh TO, TO, TO. If we were just considering stats and natural ability, I personally think Terrell Owens would be the hands down #2 guy in 49ers history. He's #2 in franchise history in receptions, yards and touchdowns behind Jerry Rice and made one of the more well known catches in team history against the Packers in the playoffs. He had issues with drops, but unlike a guy like Randy Moss, he didn't take plays off and busted his ass. Of course, there is that other part of TO. That would be the fact that when he left he was despised by many 49ers fans, including yours truly. My hatred has tempered with time and it's gotten to the point where I can separate the talented WR from the troubled individual. I'm not saying you have to in making this vote because this is somewhat a popularity contest. Rather, consider whatever you like in making your vote.
Dwight Clark (1979-1987): Clark made probably the most famous Catch in 49ers history, and in fact it probably ranks pretty high in NFL history. Clark was drafted the same year as Joe Montana and was a key part of the resurgence of the 49ers. He stands 4th in team in history in receptions, 3rd in yards and 6th in touchdowns.
John Taylor (1987-1995): Taylor made arguably the second most famous catch in 49ers history, the game-winner against the Bengals in Super Bowl XXIII. Taylor currently stands 8th or better in franchise history in receptions, yards and touchdowns. And, of course, he holds the pre-eminent spot as second banana to Jerry Rice.
Billy Wilson (1951-1960): Wilson stands 6th in receptions, 5th in yards and 5th in touchdowns. Wilson was a 6-time Pro Bowler waaaaay back in the day and stands as the first great receiver in 49ers history. In fact, a look at comparable NFL receivers in the NFL opens the argument that Wilson should in fact be a Hall of Famer.
Gene Washington (1969-1977): Today's fans might recognize Gene Washington as the man who introduces draft choices after the first round, as Director of Football Operations for the NFL. Before entering the league office, Washington was a four-time Pro Bowler and three-time All Pro with the 49ers. He finished his time with the 49ers 7th in team history in receptions, 4th in yards and 3rd in touchdowns.
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TO
How can you say the 2nd best receiver in Niners history is the 8th leading receiver on the team? That’s ridiculous. For as much of a pain TO was and is, he is far and away the 2nd best receiver the Niners have had. Talent and Production don’t lie.
by hudd07 on Jun 29, 2009 12:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
8th leading receiver?
What do you mean when you mention 8th? I’m a little confused by that comment.
by Fooch on Jun 29, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
read in haste
I read your info on JT as 8th best receiver in Niners history but you said 8th or BETTER and I missed that part. Still doesn’t change the fact that TO is hands down 2nd best receiver in Niners history.
by hudd07 on Jun 29, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually . . .
T.O. may be the 2nd leading receiver in yards and TDs, but the second best receiver in 49er history was easily John Taylor. He had the biggest hands ever measured at the combine and were they ever soft. He dropped nothing. It takes more than individual performance to be a great player. John Taylor was the ultimate team player, always willing to take the #2 role behind Rice, and always ready to throw a downfield block to spring him. He was also a great punt returner. T.O. chose to leave and many of his stats were not earned as a 49er. John Taylor was awesome . . . and for that matter, Billy Wilson was a fabulous receiver at 6-4.
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Jun 29, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
for you.....
…..it’s obviously more about popularity and him being ok being in a secondary role to Jerry and that’s fine. Fooch didn’t state specific criteria we had to go by. Me personally, I think Rice and Owens would have been better than Rice and Taylor. My opinion only….
by hudd07 on Jun 29, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
John Taylor easily for me.
Is Rice as good a player if Taylor doesn’t play consistently well as a #2 receiver? Taylor gave us consistent excellence with hardly any headaches. Owens gave us some fantastic plays and a good effort but he’d also kill a few drives with some crucial drops as well.
by jveezy on Jun 29, 2009 12:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Who did TO have?
You can’t say that Rice was great because of Taylor without acknowledging who TO had playing with him.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 29, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're definitely right.
J.J. Stokes definitely wasn’t a quality #2 guy, although TO did have Rice for the early part of his career. TO still managed to play amazing with everyone keyed on him.
Rice would still be great without Taylor, but was greater because of Taylor. I guess I’m approaching this as a vote of whether the Rice-Taylor combo was better than the Rice-TO combo.
by jveezy on Jun 29, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't remember who I voted for the first time.
I think it was John Taylor. But looking at that team and all the hall of famers and goat’s I don’t think Taylor would be as big as an impact as TO would be on that team. Not to mention TO wouldn’t be the A-whole he was with the system and QB’s on the all NN team. So if that didn’t make any sense then I will just say that I voted for TO and I think I made the right choice, not that Taylor would be a wrong one.
by etb2 on Jun 29, 2009 12:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
here's what i said last time
nostalgia factored into this one the most. I don’t discount TO was a great performer, off-field issues aside, but Taylor was by far my favorite second banana ever. If I remember correctly he returned punts and/or kicks pretty good too.
I think i’m going to stick with my original vote for JT.
and in his 4th season, VD broke through the wall, Niners fan rejoiced and all was well in the kingdom. Singletary 3:42
by 49erLou on Jun 29, 2009 12:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Owens
If I’m in the SB and I already have Jerry, TO is the man to have. He will play is ASS off and get you 120 yards on a broken leg. He is a stud.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 29, 2009 1:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
John Taylor
Is never given the credit he deserves, which is a share of Jerry Rice’s success. Jerry Rice benefitted from John Taylor being on the field with him. I haven’t looked it up, but I bet Jerry was most productive when John Taylor was there too. So many times they would both score in the same game. John Taylor brought an intangible to the 9ers, and I don’t think we’ve had a better 1-2 punch than Taylor and Rice.
by dartdart on Jun 29, 2009 1:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You may be correct
Taylor may never get all the credit he deserves but he gets alot, I think that most niner fans love John and all he brought to the field. I don’t think there is a wrong chooce with JT and TO.
by etb2 on Jun 29, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor for me
I don’t discount TO, just think that as and ALL TIME candiate he gets my vote and I echo many of the comments by kezarvet and dartdart. Best one two puch ever amd the YAC yards alone are astonding…
by WC-Ninerhead on Jun 29, 2009 1:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
popularity....
Again, most of you are turning it into a popularity contest which is fine, but for me, I think TO and Rice together would have been much better than TO and Taylor, not to mention the stats TO put up I think it’s clear he is 2nd best receiver. How can you vote for Taylor when he wasn’t even the #1 during his time. He was 2nd fiddle (albeit to the GOAT) but to me that’s tough to consider him #2 all time. TO had better stats, was more dominant physically and statistically. If you look past his problems and just at him as a football player it’s clearly TO TO TO TO TO TO.
by hudd07 on Jun 29, 2009 1:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but TO was barely the #1 guy when the GOAT was on the Niners too…. and that was in the twighlight of Jerry’s career. Any receiver would be number 2 to rice… even if we had Randy Moss.
by aBulldog on Jun 29, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Taylor played most of his career as the #2 receiver to Rice. That was a great combo for the Niners.
I don’t think T.O. would make it playing second fiddle to another receiver, heck, he can’t even share the spotlight with a fellow QB. As a #2, you have to show that you are willing to go over the middle, and hold on to the football. I don’t remember how T.O. was going over the middle for us. I think he would do it, if he was thrown the ball, and later in his career, after a few hard hits, he tends to drop more balls, and doesn’t seem to want to do anything, except go on a deep route so he can use his strength to wrestle the ball away.
T.O. is a great #1 receiver, but being #2 isn’t in his vocabulary. Based on stats, he’s the second best on the niners, maybe even top 5 in the history of the game. He’s not a team player though, yet, that’s what football is all about. The Niners built their franchise with guys that were team players back in the 80’s and 90’s…. not by being a selfish crybaby, who is seriously screwed up mentally.
So, if you’re talking about who was the best ever behind Rice, based on his stats… It’s TO… but, if you were to build an actual Roster with Niners players and put together a winning team, you’d have to put Taylor as the #2 guy behind Rice.
Hey, Let’s just revisit this in 10 years and hope that Crabtree puts this debate to rest by taking the #2 spot from both of them.
by aBulldog on Jun 29, 2009 1:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point abulldog
but, if you were to build an actual Roster with Niners players and put together a winning team, you’d have to put Taylor as the #2 guy behind Rice.
I totally aggree with your assisment, somtimes the measure of a man (player) is more than just stats…
I also echo your comment regarding Crabtree.. It is nice to reminice about times gone by but we do have a new season just up the road and if the niners want to get back to top, Crabtree will need to be a part of the effort.
by WC-Ninerhead on Jun 29, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There has just been a sour taste in my mouth ever since T.O. left. We haven’t had a productive receiver since then. I hope Crabtree can be the guy we are hoping he is… I just have this bad feeling that he’ll end up like all these other receivers who think they’re the best thing since sliced bread…. yet don’t amount to anything on the field.
by aBulldog on Jun 29, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember the alligator arms against Chicago in OT, and led to M Brown's pick six
(site decorum) T.O.
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 29, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
John Taylor
Taylor was also a great punt returner and a great sidekick to Rice.
by 49er16 on Jun 29, 2009 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Third Down
Taking nothing away from John Taylor, I value the receiver who consistently keeps the ball moving in third down.
Dwight Clark was drafted in the tenth round (not tenth pick overall) back when they had ten rounds. He had nothing special speed or ability after the catch or anything that should approach John Taylor. BUT, consistently, when the TEAM was 3rd down and 10-15, Dwight Clark had this inherent and intangible ability to get open and make the catch. I saw this time and time again.
Dwight Clark is remembered for “The Catch”… but he was a lot more than that. I call him Mr. Third Down because nobody could consistently keep the ball moving better than Dwight Clark. It was incredible the type of “possession receiver” that Dwight Clark gave Montana to allow Jerry Rice and John Taylor to get additional tries for the big play.
AND… let us not forget Freddie Soloman.
by POSEY on Jun 29, 2009 2:25 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
John Taylor was the last receiver to have 300 yards relieving in a game with 4 TDs, when Jerry Rice was hurt. Without Rice JT would hold the all time receiving records for the 49ers. I must say I was disappointed not to see Freddy Salmon’s name on this list, he was a big part of the 49ers resurgence in the early 80’s.
by kamakauzi@yahoo.com on Jun 29, 2009 2:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think there SHOULD be a vote for #1 wide receiver! Who says it would be a landslide? At the very least, it would be a great opportunity to draw out those who would vote for anyone other than Rice so we can disown them as Niners fans!
GIT R DUN, NINERZ NASHUN BRASZ!!!
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Jun 29, 2009 2:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
votes
Good idea! At this point (although I reserve the right to change my mind), I’ve linked the ones that were automatic selections on the left side of the front page. It used to have the entire team, but I removed the ones we’re definitely voting on. At this point, the automatic selections were head coach (Walsh), WR #1 (Rice), S #1 (Lott), OT #1 (St. Clair), TE (Jones), DT #1 (Nomellini) and DT #2 (BY). Just so people know, I did include honorable mentions at tight end. I’d be willing to put it to a vote, but does anybody actually think there’s someone you’d vote for ahead of Brent Jones?
by Fooch on Jun 29, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Avg. T.O. season = 74 rec, 1071 yrds, 10 td
avg J.T. season = 39 rec, 622 yrds, 5 td
by niners84 on Jun 29, 2009 3:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Are these numbers just with S.F?
Or are they Career averages?
It’s obvious T.O. has better numbers, but he did so as the main threat on his team, oh, and not to mention, he would cry every time he didn’t get the ball, thus, making his coaches and QB’s throw him the ball more often.
I’d like to see a stat, if they had one, that shows how many passes caught vs. how many passes thrown too… i.e. dropped. T.O. is pretty high up in the league in that category.
To me, it’s like saying Favre is one of the greatest QB’s of all time, because he holds the TD record…. despite holding the interception record as well. His career passer rating is like, 84 or something like that, compared to Steve Young’s 96.8…
Stat’s don’t tell you the whole picture I guess. To me, Taylor was more of a Homerun threat. The big catch, kinda guy. He didn’t get many, but when he did, they were big. Faster than T.O. I believe.
by aBulldog on Jun 29, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes just with playing in SF
9 years for JT, 8 years for TO
by niners84 on Jun 29, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add up JT's
yards as a kick and punt return man and TO still has the edge , plus look at fumbles and fumbles lost.. JT had 5 lost 3 and TO had 10 lost 5 ( as a niner). Again I am not knocking TO but I do agree with abulldog that there is more to JT that doesn’t show on the stat board and therefore in my mind I voted for JT.. I did try to lobby Fooch for a broader range of voting options ( #3 receiver, 1st team vs back up, etc. but there would likely get far more complicated than this should be.
by WC-Ninerhead on Jun 29, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry but why is TO on this list!!
Yeah he started his career here, but in his (site decorum) dismissal he managed to get our last playoff QB booted, and then he turned around and left. Not to mention he played for the Cowboys. (site decorum T.O.) The door was wide open for him to be that guy like Jerry. He posted his best numbers of his career as a niner, however when you leave a team leave with some dignity. Montana left, 9er’s chose and when Rice left the niner brass F’d up again. T.O. was a monster on the stats but he’s an embarrassment to football. In my book character has to be a huge part of the selection with Rice being number 1. T.O. will NOT come back and retire as a niner so (site decorum) that character, he is not a niner to be mentioned on this list IMO.
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 29, 2009 3:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Because he’ll probably be in the HOF, and if he goes, he’ll most likely go in as a 49er.
by aBulldog on Jun 29, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hall of fame
Hadn’t thought of that (going in as a 49er). That would be rather amusing all things considered.
by Fooch on Jun 29, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I mean, he made his name with the Niners… had some pretty big games. I remember going to a playoff game against the Giants and the Niners were getting killed, and all of a sudden, we come back in one of the greatest comebacks in Post Season history. Owens was a huge part of that (so were the refs, hahaha).
Also, he’s played 8 seasons with S.F., 2 in Philly, 3 in Dallas…. etc. I could see if he played maybe, 5 years with Dallas and won them a Super Bowl or something like that.
Anyways, I loved the guy his first few seasons with us, until the last year really. Garcia was my boy, and he ran him and the coach outta here, then took off himself.
I don’t even think a lot of fans would like to see him enshrined as a Niner. People may boycott, or riot his HOF induction… hahaha
by aBulldog on Jun 29, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t say I agree. T.O. didnt run Garcia out of town. Garcia’s poor play along with his upcoming 10 Million dollar salary that he selfishly refused to restructure. Add in Tim Rattay’s performance while Garcia was injured.
It’s always funny when I see people blaming T.O. for seemingly EVERYTHING. There’s no way that Terry Donahue let T.O. dictate the personnel on the team. If Owens opinion had any weight on this team he wouldn’t have been traded for puke Brandon Whiting. He didnt “run off” like you said. He was TRADED dude.
Everyone talks about T.O.’s “off the field issues” at the time..What off the field issues? Sure, there were locker room issues… no doubt. Can someone explain the Off the Field Issues being mentioned?
by RaphL on Jun 30, 2009 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes...Why IS TO on the list?
John Taylor: SB winning catch, holds record for longest SB punt return, first WR to catch multiple TD passes of 90+ yards in a single game, the ultimate team player and above all a winner (not a whiner)
TO: How can he compare?
by SSC24 on Jun 29, 2009 3:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
numbers
Have you looked at TO’s 49er numbers? Obviously people don’t like him, but can you honestly say with a straight face he’s not an amazingly talented wide receiver?
by Fooch on Jun 29, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I ve looked at Marino's number too, and he isn't in the same breat as JOE!!
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 29, 2009 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
breath that is
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 29, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not my point
I never said he was as good as Jerry Rice. I’m just saying you have to admit Terrell Owens is a very talented receiver.
by Fooch on Jun 29, 2009 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fooch
It will never end… Sorry I brought the thing up… Some people just don’t get the idiea that the Forty Niners have some truely great talanted players over the years.. i am just a DIE HARD NINER FAN calling it like it is… This team has some truely great tallent on the roster and the good news it that many of them have played so receintly that they are not yet eliegable for the Hall Off Fame.. The debate of who is the greatest of Dick Buttkis or Mike Singletary still lives on in Chigago, ( and you know who is now the niners head coach) so the debate continues..
STAY TUUUNNNED TO THE NIIIIINNNNNEERRRSSS NNNNAAATTTION FOR furhther resultes. Until then this is a brand new year and another chance to prove
WHO IS THE GREATEST TEAM IN THE NFL
GOOOOOO NIIIINNNNEERRRSS……
by WC-Ninerhead on Jun 29, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Admitted.......Maybe the most physically gifted I've seen!!
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 30, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Close.
I think Moss may be the most physically gifted (if you want to consider speed a physical tool).
by sfgfan on Jun 30, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moss has had the speed over TO but no WR has ever been able to run over defenders the way TO has.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 30, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
comparing the two
One problem in comparing them is they’re such different styles of receiver, in my opinion. TO will bowl defenders over, while Moss is more like a gazelle. Of course, gotta include Moss’ ability to go after jump abilities.
Here’s some video from one of my favorite Moss TDs at Marshall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOYH6PPYaPI&feature=PlayList&p=7A5FA35475350FAB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=8
by Fooch on Jun 30, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is close
When it’s all said and done (for Moss and Owens). Jerry Rice will still be in a league of his own and Moss and Owens as the 2nd and 3rd best and in a leauge of their own below Rice but above everybody else.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 30, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Averages while playing with Rice
TO = 64 rec – 952 yrds – 9 td
JT = 39 rec – 622 yrds – 5 td
TO highlights include record 20 catch game and “The Catch 2”
JT highlights include Bengals SB winning catch, 11 rec 286 yrds 2 tds vs rams in ’89
TO lowlights include childish behavior, criticizing coaches, selfishness
JT lowlights include suspension for cocaine use and 4 season with less that 500 yrds rec.
by niners84 on Jun 29, 2009 4:18 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I rec'd you....
Your stats make it even easier for these cry babies here to see TO was by far the best 2nd receiver in Niners history. Just because TO had ONE disruptive year everyone complains about him. For MUCH longer he was dominate. It’s easy fellas…..HANDS DOWN TO WAS BEST RECEIVER IN NINERS HISTORY BESIDE JERRY
by hudd07 on Jun 29, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wise old man once said
you can say what you want but Jt has the votes.. JT was JR’s wing man for many years and is still DA MAN.. and as they say “DA is DA NAME A DAT TUNE….”
by WC-Ninerhead on Jun 29, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stats don't mean crap.
TO was in no way the second best receiver in 49er history if you take into account all the intangibles that contribute to a team. Nobody was a better team player than John Taylor. He was loved by his teammates and was always modest and soft-spoken. Plus, he had much better hands than TO. Terrell has always had problems with dropped passes and fumbles. Taylor had probably the best hands ever on the Niners with the exception of Billy Wilson who dropped nothing. TO is great in the stats but his personality and ego are not conducive to being a team player.
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Jul 1, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I voted T.O
Much as I hated him when he left, and the way he left, there’s not many receivers out there who play as hard as him and who have the talent he did (and does). One thing I’ve always been impressed by with T.O is how physical he played. On running plays where other receivers would barely touch their guy T.O would drive his opponent until the whistle blew.
You’ve got to respect that in a player.
That’s why he gets my vote for number two.
by smileyman on Jun 29, 2009 5:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
TO
2nd greatest WR of all time
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 29, 2009 5:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Better than Moss, Carter, Largent, Monk, you know guys who played with integrity. he’s not even better than Harrison
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 29, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
Moss played with integrity? I forgot that taking half of your plays off counted as integrity.
when will the Kenny Thomas Reign of Terror end?!!??
by diehardkingsfan5 on Jun 29, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO Moss didn't need it.
He may take plays off but he opens up the field for QB’s RB’s and other WR’s…Ask Welker and Brady. Maybe we should change Brady’s name to When in Doubt just throw it up!!
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 30, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad integrity doesn't make you a good football player.
Maveric never said the guy was the 2nd greatest person ever to play WR – the comment was in reference to level of talent and collective production. In those areas, it’s hard to argue against T.O.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 29, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you.
Largent, Carter, and Moss never won any SB’s either rlott#42. None of them could ever take over games the way TO did in his prime.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 29, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take over games??
Like the game losing drop? No one on this list to my knowlege has ever lost a game3 with a drop. I voted Clark, but I would take Taylor over TO. And TO wanted out of SF we didn’t want him to go.
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 30, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like the Chicago game?
Whatever. How about the Giants Wild card game? What about the Super Bowl gaining 121 on a broken leg? He dropped alot in the Packers game but he got the game winning catch to finally beat em. How bout the 2001 game against Atlanta where he kept the game even and won it in OT?
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 30, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ATM yes
TO has outproduced every WR not named Jerry Rice. But by the end of his career Moss will probably sit at #2 and TO #3.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 30, 2009 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
T.O. may have been a douchenozzle in his later years with us...
but that doesn’t take away form the fact that he was one hell of a football player while he wore our uniform.
20 catches in Rice’s retirement party game, the “Redemption Reception” against the Packers in the playoffs, his multiple pro bowl years… all great memories. My favorite of Owens, however, is one of much lesser note:
1998 season opener against the Jets. First play of overtime, Garrison Hearst breaks a couple tackles and breaks loose – he makes a dash down the sideline but clearly slows down after about 40 yards. Out of nowhere, a red and gold blur wearing the number 81 flashes into the screen – making everyone else in picture look like they’re going in slow motion – and protects G from quickly-closing opponents as he barely makes it into the end zone for the 96 yard game-winner.
T.O. may have come off as a me-first player on the sidelines and in post-game interviews, but that guy was a complete package who always played his heart out between whistles.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 29, 2009 8:55 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
P.S. One of the greatest runs in NFL history, imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkEJu1yQJlE
And it couldn’t have happened without T.O.’s downfield block(s).
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 29, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
definitely
that’s a great Niner memory..
by niners84 on Jun 30, 2009 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I mentioned that upthread
T.O always blocked his man until the end of the play. Even tough-guy linemen don’t always do that.
by smileyman on Jun 29, 2009 9:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
TO was a great player
an now is simply a good player with a so so team,, Go on and cry all you want be but MR. TAYLOR is still the wing man Rice ever had and nothing you guys can say will ever change that fact… DEAL WITH IT…
by WC-Ninerhead on Jun 29, 2009 9:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
an now is simply a good player with a so so team
Jerry Rice with the Seahawks.
(shudder) – some things we should just forget.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 30, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Unfortunately many great players
don’t know when to hang em up… Jerry played one season too long… Lott didn’t do all that great with da rayda’s either…Joe moved to KC and although didn’t have a great year he didn’t stink joint up either…TO’s time is comming real soon. Unfortunately he will likely let his mouth put him in a place where his skill and athletisism will fail and he will be done..
by WC-Ninerhead on Jun 30, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe led KC to an AFC Title game
so yeah, I don’t think he sh*t the bed when in KC. He took them to the playoffs twice.
Jerry Rice had some good years with the Raiders, and was traded to Seattle, so its not really his fault.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 30, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jerry actually had a couple of good plays w the Seacocks too.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 30, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I voted John Taylor
Because John Taylor was always a number 2, and never cared about being a number 1. He knew he would excel and win championships, so he stayed a 49er for his entire career. I love 49ers like that. Career guys. Bryant Young type guys. Dwight Clark, who I’d vote for over T.O. any day. Dwight Clark made the Catch, and put the 49ers on the map. Both stand greater significance to 49ers success than T.O. (Clark and Taylor).
You can put stats in Owens’ corner all you want, but he wasn’t a live, breath, die 49er like Clark and Taylor were. T.O. had some amazing years (still his best) with the 49ers, but wasn’t always a 49er. He never brought the team a title, and never had the professionalism that the players before him had. T.O. dragged our franchise through the mud. We’re just now recovering completely after drafting Crabtree.
Anyone who votes Owens isn’t looking at this like a true 49er fan should. John Taylor was a lifetime Niner, super fast, and the best compliment opposite Rice. Therefore, Taylor wins, and Clark comes in second. R.C. Owens should finish ahead of Terrell.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 29, 2009 11:08 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
he stayed a 49er for his entire career. I love 49ers like that. Career guys. Bryant Young type guys.
and in his 4th season, VD broke through the wall, Niners fan rejoiced and all was well in the kingdom. Singletary 3:42
by 49erLou on Jun 30, 2009 1:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except...
… “career guys” don’t exist in this era of football unless you’re a QB. Even then, the chances of sticking to one team your whole career is rare.
by sfgfan on Jun 30, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what makes
guys like B.Y., John Taylor and Dwight Clark so special to the team’s history. They are players that don’t exist anymore.
Joe Staley, he may be a guy that’s here from day one until the end. Patrick Willis, I hope he’s another.
Career guys still exist, its just extremely rare, because of free agency, the salary cap, and above anything else: Greed.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 30, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greed?
If you’re going to say greed, I’d say it’s greed by both sides. I’d actually say the biggest reason is non-guaranteed contracts combined with free agency. Players can leave at the end of their deal, but owners can also cut them before a deal expires.
by Fooch on Jun 30, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
greed
was intended to be a two way street, yes.
I was blaming the players for not being career guys, I’m just saying they aren’t as many because of those factors. Those factors are definitely a combination of the players and the owners. Heck, it could be argued that owners are at a bigger fault, but that’s another can of worms we don’t have to open.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 30, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was not blaming
is how that should of read.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 30, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like John Taylor...
… as much as the next 49ers’ fan, however, he is far from being the second best (or even second most important) WR in the history of the team. I’m willing to bet that almost any average WR could have played as well as Taylor did opposite from Rice in his prime.
The All-time roster’s voting scheme has quite a few issues with it. The issue leading the pack is whether or not you’re to vote with your heart or if you’re to vote based on performance and statistics. In each voter’s mind, their justification is correct, as there is no definite criteria for voting.
by sfgfan on Jun 30, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this were a statistical debate
there would be no debate. Owens’ numbers dwarf Taylor’s. I became a 49ers fan during the John Taylor era. My memories of him are nothing but found.
I still have some bitterness left from the T.O. era. I think current NFL players shouldn’t be on the list, because we are still seeing this player play (but its for another team). Personally, every time I see T.O. I think of T.O. as a Niner, and I smile knowing his best seasons (statistically) came as a 49er. But, I’m still bitter towards T.O. the person.
If Owens were out of the league for several years, I’d probably vote Owens. By then, I won’t care about how he finished his career with the 49ers, but how he established his greatness with them.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 30, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
also
I think if the list excluded T.O. (and say we re did the vote anytime a signficant player retires for that position) until he was out of the NFL, the votes would be a lot closer between Taylor and Clark. Without T.O. on the list, I think people wouldn’t feel obligated to either help stack on Taylor’s lead, or make a push to get Owens closer.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 30, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any wide receiver?
It is obvious to me that the TO fans never saw Taylor play. Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGCSjt2kpOg
I’ll take that bet.
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Jul 1, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love that vid...
That my freind says it all,
by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 1, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
Anyone who votes Owens isn’t looking at this like a true 49er fan should.
Can we please stop with the “if you don’t agree with me, then you aren’t a real fan” arguments? Really, it’s just childish. It’s no different from saying “vote for me or you aren’t a real American!”
We get it: you can’t form a solid argument, so the terrorists win. Whatever.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Jun 30, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
RE: Can we please stop with the "if you don’t agree with me, then you aren’t a real fan" arguments?
Agreed but the “if you don’t agree with me (methodrampage) then you don’t know jack” argument still stands.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 30, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
I went overboard with that line, but I felt I needed to defend those bashing John Taylor.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 30, 2009 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 game vs 1 season
If it was a one off game I think I pick TO, if it is a season and superbowl I want to win and I already have Jerry Rice at WR1 and Jones at TE and have either of the other 2 receivers on the list in the squad I go with JT.
As devisive a character as he is TO doesn’t make the squad for my championship challenging team, but if it is a one off game TO is too talented and too hard a worker when playing not to include.
JT gets my vote and not TO because it is the best team I vote for not the best collection of individuals
by DaveintheUK on Jun 29, 2009 11:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
#2 reciever
Well you asked who do we think it is…i have to go with JT
if u dont give TO the ball and if he aint #1 then he will bitch n complain
and make the team worst….sure he can make cute videos about him
forgiving his team ahead of time…..but thats just him admitting he has issues
JT was solid at the #2 spot so he takes it hands down…as the guy a few spots up said….JT was the best wingman…..for me i would say of all time…but im a niner fan so haha
by Sammallory on Jun 30, 2009 1:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
#2
All of these guys made their mark on our teams history.
TO made that game-winning catch against GB, but he dropped more passes that cost us games.
Billy Wilson should be a HOF’er for his numbers back in the day
Gene Washington could be an incredible receiver just like Freddie Solomon….
but for me, it was a toss-up between Dwight Clark and John Taylor. Both men ran great routes, had superb hands and nerves of steel. Both had legendary catches, Clark in the NFC Championship game and Taylor in the Super Bowl.
Personally, I went with Taylor as my choice. He was almost as dangerous a threat as Jerry.
by biggdawg49 on Jun 30, 2009 5:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The problem is, even without TO John Taylor isn't close to being the 49ers 2nd best WR
But most of you are severely deficient in any kind of football knowledge that you haven’t regurgitated from ESPN.
TO is obviously the 2nd best WR to ever suit up for the Niners. His numbers speak for themselves.
Gene Washington was a better WR than Taylor. So was Billy Wilson. Even R.C. Owens and Dave Parks should be ahead of Taylor. But because you guys didn’t get to watch those guys when you were twelve you really have no idea who they are.
Face it, Rice made Taylor every bit of the mediocre WR that he was.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 30, 2009 8:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
mediocre
I wouldn’t exactly say Taylor was a “mediocre” receiver…I do agree on most of your points though.
by Fooch on Jun 30, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
38 receptions
Taylor averaged 38 receptions a year. Playing with the the greatest WR and two of the greatest QB of all time. Seems pretty mediocre to me.
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jun 30, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Although he had the “Big Play” factor any time he did touch the ball.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jun 30, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
just to quote fooch's article
If we were just considering stats and natural ability, I personally think Terrell Owens would be the hands down #2 guy in 49ers history.
I agree with that statement. If it were considering just stats and natural ability, Owens is the best other WR of 49ers history. Since we’re not just considering football ability, I disagree that Owens is our second greatest WR. He didn’t do enough for the franchise.
T.O.‘s best seasons have come as a 49er, and that’s a fact. He didn’t get the benefit of winning rings, or making historical catches. He didn’t get the reputation of a being a team guy, a player that puts the team before himself. Owens was great, he’s just tainted. Maybe in 10 years, more of us will warm to the idea, but for now, we’ll just what Niner fans have always done: resort back to the 80s and early 90s. When the team actually had some relevance.
by Andrew Davidson on Jun 30, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is the most mediocre comment on this forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGCSjt2kpOg
Now watch this video and tell me he was mediocre. In it, Frank Gifford: “Rice and Taylor are easily the best two wide receivers in the league.”
You’re right . . . I’m not sweating it and I agree with the rest of your signature.
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Jul 1, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Face it . . .
you never saw him play, are probably 13 years old, and have no clue about John Taylor.
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Jul 2, 2009 6:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor vs. Owens
I keep hearing how great of a “wingman” Taylor was. well I didn’t know this was a vote for best wingman to Flash80.. i thought this was 2nd best receiver in 49ers history… Yeah, TO wasn’t the best “wingman” to Jerry, I guess it was Taylor. But in terms of sheer production on the field, stats don’t lie.. Owens was the one. Plus if we were really putting these guys on the field in their prime, I would much rather see Rice and Owens line up than Rice and Taylor… two TRUE #1s as opposed to a #1 and a good “wingman”
by niners84 on Jun 30, 2009 8:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well how did Jerry take being the Wingman?
He wouldn’t do it so I’m really not knocking Owens for that, it’s the ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, that’s the problem. I don’t think anyohne would pick TO over Clark or Taylor with the game on the line with one catch to go for the win. TO over the middle, alligator arms!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNVm1y93S_0
Need I say more??
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 30, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right in the numbers too
Way to go number 2
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
by rlott#42 on Jun 30, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
T.O. as #2
u almost forgot, OWENS also has the most receptions in a single game(20). He did that on JR’s last game as a 49er
by t.o. fan on Jun 30, 2009 7:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
almost forgot
RICE and TAYLOR had the #1 QB while RICE and OWENS had the #2 QB. what if the QBs were switched?
by t.o. fan on Jun 30, 2009 8:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
fooch...
…same vote as before, and for the same reasons: taylor.
side note: why’d you have to go and mention sample size? just trying to have me make an appearance on here, no doubt. ;-)
well, the sampling error for 377 votes, assuming random sampling (which is totally not the case here), is +/- 5.05%. increasing the sample size to 1000 votes (which is what it looks like round 2 will get) only lowers the sampling error to +/- 3.10%. point is, 377 was already a more-than-adequate sample size to get a “clear” picture (again, assuming random sampling). if we don’t assume random sampling here, then the picture will remain “unclear,” regardless of sample size, because the error is pretty much unknown.
anyway, taylor’s a niner-for-life…TO’s a niner-imploding crybaby. case closed. i’d probably put clark ahead of TO in a 3 WR set just to reward the guys who played their entire careers as 49ers. in fact, i propose that, if he were to win this vote, we should strip TO of his #2 all-time title 2 seasons from now because he’ll then have played a majority of his career away from SF. that disqualifies a player from all-time team consideration in my opinion.
by Florida Danny on Jul 1, 2009 7:01 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
buzzwords
It’s all about throwing buzz words that just SUCK YOU IN!
As far as your suggestion about disqualifying players, I actually included Deion Sanders on the ballot for the #2 corner. I made the executive decision at that point that since he only played one year he couldn’t be eligible for the #1 corner. But, because he had such a phenomenal single year, he could be voted on at #2. He did not win. As far as TO, I just don’t see how you couild ever disqualify the #2 statistical receiver in team history. Or at least #2 in traditional counting stats. If he had Taylor’s receiving numbers and spent most of his time elsewhere I probably wouldn’t put him on the ballot.
by Fooch on Jul 1, 2009 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK...
…assuming T.O. wins this poll (which looks unlikely), can we strip him of #2 all-time when crabtree, morgan, or hill surpass his 49er stats? please? :-)
p.s. “executive decision”…sounds like something out of iran the past few weeks…should we start calling you our “supreme leader” or something? ;-)
by Florida Danny on Jul 1, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
I saw we go with the “Ayatollah of Futbolah.” Of course, I’d be happy with just supreme leader. Maybe go with El Jefe, or the Italian Il Duce? I could go on all day!
by Fooch on Jul 1, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about...
Ayatollah Al-Foochballah
by Florida Danny on Jul 1, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rocky and Bullwinkle
already have SUPREME LEADER locked up ( Boris’s boss)
by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 1, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
anyway, taylor’s a niner-for-life…TO’s a niner-imploding crybaby. case closed. i’d probably put clark ahead of TO in a 3 WR set just to reward the guys who played their entire careers as 49ers.
I agree with that statement.
by Andrew Davidson on Jul 1, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see TO
on Superstars show last night, couldn’t keep from running that mouth… somthings will neaver change.
by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 1, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
T.O. vs. J.T.
Close call but I gotta go with J.T. But where is R.C. Owens? Not that I would vote for him but he should be on the list!
by JonnyT on Jul 2, 2009 11:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How bout for certain packages we have Taylor as the #2 and TO as the slot man....
Unstoppable
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jul 2, 2009 11:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Better memory:
Best pass I have ever seen. And an equally tough catch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzThn8pkpC0
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
by maveric_87 on Jul 3, 2009 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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