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Football Outsiders thinks the San Francisco 49ers are "an obscure football team"

If you take nothing else from this post, the title says it all.  It's safe to say that the stats at Football Outsiders, and Bill Barnwell in particular (the man who wrote the 49ers section), are not feeling the 49ers in 2009.  Before I go into detail, Dan Brown of the San Jose Mercury News also took time to run through this.  I have not read his post yet because I wanted to give my impressions unshaded by others.

First off, the sales pitch.  Normally FO produces the Pro Football Prospectus, available in Borders and other bookstores.  This year, due to some contractual issues, they're in between publishers (or something like that) and the book will NOT be available in bookstores.  Instead, you can either purchase a PDF version of it at the FO website now, or it will soon be available through Amazon.com.  One plus to getting the PDF is that it's $12, while Amazon will be charging $20.  For a poor law student, that's like 2 beers in San Francisco!

Second, the DISCLAIMER.  If you're planning on purchasing this and really don't want to know what they've said about the 49ers, this is your chance to ignore this post.  I'm not discussing everything in the book, nor even everything they say about the 49ers.  This first post is an overview of their 49ers thoughts.  Over the coming weeks I'll break out more segments (or maybe Florida Danny can join in the act).  You've been sufficiently warned.

For those who don't read Football Outsiders, they basically have come up with alternative statistics that allow them to get a more accurate view of team performance.  Basically they look at every single play from a season and compare to a league average based on given situations.  I'd go into more detail, but there are others who can do it much better than I.  We might even get some insight from Florida Danny before the end of the summer.  In the meantime, here's a rundown of their methods.

The 49ers section will definitely appeal to the Debbie Downers (some may call them realists) here at NN.  As for me, well it teaches me to look for things other than stats.  By far the best and worst description of the 49ers section is this:

That they are merely obscure and not downright awful should be cause for celebration; the difference between the Matt Millen-era Lions and the Scot McCloughan-era Niners is context and luck.

Let the McClueless jokes fly.

Over the last four years (2005-2008), the 49ers have third-worst 4-year stretch of any team in the 15-year history of DVOA.  Who's the worst? The 2004-2007 49ers.  Fantastic.  FO looks at 2009 as a continuance of mediocrity:  "Our projection of another year of mediocrity comes because of a crippling lack of progress over the last four seasons in locating, nurturing, and properly implementing talent up and down the roster.  We'll have some more on that ray of sunshine after we get the projections up:

2008 Record: 7-9
Pythagorean Wins: 6.9 (NEVER doubt PW!)

2009 Mean Projection: 5.7 wins
On the clock (0-3): 15%
Loserville (4-6): 51%
Mediocrity (7-8): 22%
Playoff Contender (9-10): 10%
Super Bowl Contender (11+): 2%

For those hoping for the playoffs, I think this video sufficiently sums it up.

After the jump we get into some of the nitty-gritty about why the 49ers are apparently going to suck.  Also, I realize there will be plenty of "I told you so" people based on the projections.  There are plenty of folks who will argue against the stats.  Let's try and keep things relatively civil and remember that every person is entitled to their own opinion (that's my "play nice children" speech).

Star-divide

First off, let's take a quick look back at previous projected means from PFP.  I own the 2007 and 2008 Prospectus's (Prospecti?!), which coincides with the time I've been running things here.  In 2008, they projected out 5.3 wins and the 49ers finished with 7. There was a 65% chance the A's would finish with 6 or fewer wins and an 18% chance of 7-8 wins.  In 2007, they projected out 8.1 wins and the 49ers finished with 5 wins in a debacle of a season.  The percentages indicated a 24% chance they'd finish with 6 or fewer wins.  So, for the optimists out there (including myself), maybe they'll strike gold in that 12% range of finishing with 9+ wins!

Before the more traditional FA statistical analysis, Barnwell posted his thoughts on the various issues ailing the 49ers during the McNolan era and into today.  Given the detail he provides, I'll just go with some bullet points:

  • Vernon Davis/Manny Lawson: As much crap as Alex Smith gets, Barnwell points to the pair of first rounders that have not lived up to expectations; particularly from a 1st round class that has done quite well - he refers to Davis's skill set at this point as a poor man's Jim Kleinsasser and gets into the Manny Lawson sack issue in detail
  • Day 2 picks: Indicates SF will only start 1 player they drafted after the second round under McCloughan (Haralson)
  • Shaun Hill: We've had this discussion over and over again here, but basically he points to the schedule Hill has faced (wins against 2-14 Rams twice last year and two more teams mailing it in in 2007)
  • General flux of the offensive coordinators and lack of consistent play.  That and the fact that they don't like Jimmy Raye's prospects
  • Identity: In general the team has struggled to find an identity.  He points specifically to the 3-4/4-3 issues and how that resulted in Justin Smith bouncing around on the line and as linebacker.
  • Singletary: Jury's still out given the same factors as Hill in terms of schedule he faced
  • Crabtree:  As they put it, "...the team's only real threat in the passing game - barring a huge step forward from Josh Morgan or Brandon Jones..." and the fact that rookie receivers take time to develop.

It's more detailed than that, but you get the general gist.  If you'd like more specific information about a particular point, say so in the comments and I'll pass along some more details.  Barnwell closes the essay indicating that there's no real point in discussing the stars of the team (Gore, Willis, and Clements among others) because "they don't matter in this sort of situation.  They could be the best players in the league at their respective positions and it wouldn't be enough to overcome the mediocrity that permeates the majority of the roster."

Odds and Ends
The Almanac goes through each unit on offense and defense providing little tidbits and observations that are certainly intriguing.  I thought I'd post some of them here.  The first one relates to the signing of Marvel Smith and what it means for Joe Staley:

Smith’s signing also means that Joe Staley will play left tackle again this year. Staley is undoubtedly the
49ers’ most talented lineman, and he can handle the responsibilities of protecting Shaun Hill’s (or Alex Smith’s)
blindside, but he’s also an extraordinarily aggressive player who’s "mauler" mentality is far better suited for the
right side, clearing open lanes for Frank Gore (note that Gore’s production has dropped significantly in the two years that Staley has manned the left side).

That's certainly an intriguing thought regarding Staley and his skills as an o-lineman.  At the same time, they make no mention of the fact that he played left tackle in college.  Is it possible that his development as an NFL left tackle will reach a new level this year?  Maybe not, but it's something to pay close attention to.

On the defensive side of things they hit a lot of the notable issues (the OLBs, the cornerback opposite Clements, free safety, etc...).  They have a few interesting comments about Justin Smith with the clarification of the 3-4 defense:

End Justin Smith is by far their most effective and reliable player on the defensive line, and he proved to be
worth every penny of his $45 million contract. In the dedicated 3-4, Smith will no longer be forced to drop back in pass coverage, and instead he can concentrate on rushing the quarterback’s blind side. At 285 pounds, though, he’s undersized for a 3-4 end, so there may be some issues with wear and tear as the season goes along.

As I said, there are plenty of details I'm not including here.  I figured for now this is a good start.  Over the coming weeks we'll have plenty more for discussion.

I thought I'd close with FO's look at the 49ers medical staff.  The Almanac rates the 32 team medical staffs and it's one of the few areas where the team gets some props.  FO has developed a metric called Adjusted Games Lost.  They use injury reports, historical rates of player participation at each injury status, and research into a player's role on the team.  The metric is measured over a three-year period.

The 49ers ranked 7th over the last three years and finished 6th in 2008 with 30.3 adjusted games lost.  Given the less than stellar discussion of the 49ers, I think it's best to close with some kind of positive:

Trend: Slightly positive. Their biggest issue was with Jonas Jennings...[his] release in the offseason is a positive move...The defense only missed a total of four starts, which isn't likely to happen again.

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I believe (though I could be wrong here)

that they gave the 2008 Titans a 4% chance at 11+ wins.
Tennessee, of course, had the best record in the NFL at 13-3.

If I am wrong about their prediction (4% chance at 11+ wins) then I apologize.
If I am correct, then I guess the 2009 49ers are in pretty good company.

I picked that up doing some on-line research (apparently they gave the Steelers an 8% chance of going +11. the Stellers won 12).

If someone knows the truth here I would welcome it.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 8:23 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

percentages

If nobody has it, I have last year’s Prospectus and can post the info when I get home later this afternoon.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here is an old article..

On Marathe from SF Weekly. It goes into his background a bit, and his use of statistical analysis:

http://www.sfweekly.com/2005-12-28/news/offensive-line/1

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There’s a few things you can’t measure by looking at statistics. A players heart, a coaches passion, or a teams desire. These are all things the 49ers have lacked, really in the better part of this decade… or since guys like Jeff Garcia and TO left. We lost the face of our franchise and never found a suitable replacement….. or if we did have a guy, he was pushed behind Coach Nolan’s ego and love for himself.
 
Ever since Singletary took over, I’ve seen these things starting to return to our team and franchise. It’s quite humbling to see as a fan… especially things like, the “new” owner coming out and talking to the public. I never heard the York’s come out and talk about their team, and their expectations, or really express any love for the team or the fans. Their son seasons to have that desire to win, and seems generally interested in football…. at least from the couple of interviews I have seen.

Can I compare baseball to football? Nobody thought the Giants would be any good, except for a few Giants fans. All I heard was how good the A’s were going to be, cuz they got Matt Holliday, and because statistics from the last 5 or 6 seasons points to the Giants repeating as losers… but look at the halfway point of the season, and the Giants are in contention for the playoffs. They have the National Leagues 4th best hitting team in terms of average, and a guy (Sandoval) who could wind up hitting 25 or 30 HR’s and 100+ RBI’s.

Yeah, yeah, yeah… that’s baseball… but I see quicker turnarounds almost every year in football… Arizona sure did it last year.

by aBulldog on Jul 14, 2009 9:02 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

There’s a few things you can’t measure by looking at statistics. A players heart, a coaches passion, or a teams desire.

It’s the same thing they say at the combine and about the draft. It’s a whole lot harder to measure those intangibles than a player’s 40 time.

And those intangibles are huge, especially in the game of football. It’s one thing to hit a guy cause you HAVE; quite another cause you WANT to.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely agree

It is those intangibles that I have been harping on in several posts. Although it would be great to see articles and such talking up the Niners, however I do not care much about stats and such except for one.. The only stat that caries any weight for me is the win / loss record as the season progress.

I do believe that Singletary has brought a sharp change in attitude, drive and desire to this team although when one looks that them as individuals and the career “stats” it is easy get down on them because when measured that way clearly they don’t show well. The really odd thing that most people on this blog don’t get yet is that they play as team.. They will win and lose as a TEAM. And that is precisely what Singletary is all about. That is why he benched VD last year. VD got it ( at least I think he did). So for my input, these guys at Football Outsiders can say and print what ever they want because I won’t read their stuff and to paraphrase a line from an old movie “….Frankly, I don’t give a damn…”

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Intangibles would still be responsible for their success.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I used to judge teams by stats, until I became a Sharks fan. Then I realized the importance of intangibles….

by shark94112 on Jul 14, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sad but true . . .

by bignerd on Jul 14, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't base my support for the Forty Niners

based on any puplication or some elses oppinion possitive or negative. I have support this team through good times and bad times for over 30 years and my support has not nor will it ever be based on the oppinion of others.. Even when the niners ere 2-14 they were still my team ( although I nearly kicked the TV on occasion).

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are two types of fans

The ones that understand and give weight to the ‘intangibles’ and the ones that don’t.

It’s that simple. Stats can only go so far with a game like football.

Football is really the only true team sport out there and it’s the only one where guys are slamming into each other on every play.

It’s a game where a Ronnie Lott can come flying in and smash the F++K out of a WR to cause him to drop the ball.

Stat wise, that just becomes an incompletition. They can list how many incompetitions the other team has the next day, and that will be just a number.

Game wise, however, plays like that can be huge. They can shift the balance of momentum. They can intimidate the other team.

So much happens in the NFL that goes beyond the stat line.
Stats matter and they’re important, but they don’t tell the whole story.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Got it dude.

Really.

Tell ya what. Call up you pals at FO and ask them to simply tell us how the season is going to play out. What the records of all the teams are going to be and who’s going to win the SB.

Why wait and watch the upcoming season when these guys already have the answers?

Your ‘man-love’ for the boys at FO is kinda creepy.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...

My “Man love” may not be as deep as Fooch’s or Florida Danny’s (Fooch purchased the Prospectus, and Danny works hard at using their stats model), so you may have to deflect your particular jab at them instead of me.

But, being the kind of guy that likes to help out the ignorant:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/02/01/pigskin_pythagoras/

You can thank me later.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They're not on here every

five minutes yelling about FO.

Probably because those guys are intelligent and you, well, you’re not.

Again, though, end the suspense for me.

BEFORE the season starts, read your little book and tell me what’s going to happen.

Really. Use the power of FO and tell me.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a FO thread...

In case you didn’t know, and you could probably find more about FO in the archives, front page articles that weren’t posted my me.

If you have an FO problem, than maybe you should hang out at a Bears board. You know, the team you root for, in case you forgot.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I started the thread by showing

one of their MANY ‘miscalculations.’

Something you apparently have a hard time understanding or accepting.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They nailed the 49ers record right.

I’m sure you thought they would be going 9-7 or above in 2008 too.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand "miscalculations"...

I read your football posts. They’re about as miscalculated as you can get.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This coming from a guy who doesn't know that

the title ‘Assistant HC’ is meaningless!

Too funny son.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm....

This really doesn’t belong in this thread. This is a different thread, and we really don’t want to crap this one up now, do we?

Can you deal with that?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

personal battle

I’ve let you guys go back and forth in the FanPost. Do NOT bring it into this thread. This applies to both of you.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW:

Tell drummer boy to (almost constantly) stop calling me stupid.

It’s one thing to say that someone is ignorant. It’s a whole other thing to call them stupid.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok....

Drummer, no calling him stupid. It really adds nothing to the conversation.

For everybody, putting two asterisks between S and T or F and K does NOT make it less of a swear word, particularly when it’s part of personal attacks. So people need to stop that.

Finally, GeoMak, do you realize that referring to people as “son,” is extremely condescending? If you want to continue doing so feel free, but just no that I’d imagine most people will only be irritated by it.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Noted...

And I am only gonna say this once:

As long as GeoMak dishes it out his way, he should have the stones to take what he gives out.

That’s it.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course it's condescending Fooch

After someone has called me stupid about five or ten times I get that way.

Look, I made the first post on this thread late last night. It was intelligent, well written and not confrontational (at least not to anyone here), I believe.

I think that you’d agree with that. If not, please tell me.

And of course, it’s just a matter of time before drummer comes at me (like he’s been doing for a day and a half).

It started with his 3:54 post (Someone explain FO again to GeoMak).

That was just drummer in the bullpen, warming up.

It’s tiring really and a little of that goes a long, long way.

Doing it constantly is ridiculous.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It wasn't very "in depth"..

Thus my comment.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

STOP

No more warnings. Don’t even reply to this comment acknowledging it.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know what

I’ll get off the site.

For what it’s worth, your’s is one of the better ones that I’ve been to on SB. The vast majority are imntelligent and well spoken. But there are a handful who have nothing better to do than to attack me.

It’s actually kind of laughable.

A long time ago I quoted something said by Steve Young in reference to Jim McMahon.

Yesterday, in the middle of the ‘Mike learned a valuable lesson from Seifert’ post , someone writes :

Without Jim McMahon there is no Steve Young.’

Completely out of left field. A shot at me that had nothing to do with the thread. And of course, a few minutes later, here comes drummer.

The best part is this: I didn’t say it. Steve Young said it (He said that he learned to play QB watching McMahon at BYU). I’ve got it on DVD.

Young didn’t appear drunk, i didn’t see a gun pointing at his head and I don’t think his concussions hurt him that bad.

I’m getting attacked for something Steve Young said. I never said it. I just repeated it.

It’s like, if anyone thinks that the comment is stupid, tell STEVE YOUNG. He’s the one that made it. Don’t attack me.

That’s pretty pathetic. I’m getting attacked yesterday for a comment I made months ago whereby Steve Young complimented Jim McMahon.

That’s crazy.

by GeoMak on Jul 14, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hallelujah

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i said this
Without Jim McMahon there is no Steve Young

I wasn’t trying to attack you. I was just trying to be funny. Maybe I should stop that.

and in his 4th season, VD broke through the wall, Niners fan rejoiced and all was well in the kingdom. Singletary 3:42

by 49erLou on Jul 14, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

For What it's Worth Lou

I wasn’t sure what you meant there. I never had any problem with you so it was a little confusing to me.

No hard feelings.

However, it did send the attack dogs after me, criticizing me for something Young has said about his good friend Jim McMahon.

by GeoMak on Jul 15, 2009 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got the joke

But then again, I do have a sense of humor.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 15, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

2% Chance to be a Superbowl Contender

So you’re saying there’s hope!

by kiyoshi on Jul 14, 2009 9:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

linked

I linked to a similar version shortly before the jump.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha, sorry

No flash at work, no chance to check videos. I’m kind of flying blind here.

Blind devotion.

by ProfessorBigelow on Jul 14, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last Year..

Would anyone have given the Cardinals a 2% chance of making it to the superbowl. They managed it. Why can’t we?

by shovel-25 on Jul 14, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The QB's...

That’s why they can’t.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...

… I think the WRs may have something to do with it, too.

by sfgfan on Jul 14, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Their defense played out of their mind in the playoffs as well

Like the Giants the year before the team just clicked and got hot at the right time. If the Niners make the playoffs that 2% will get a big time bump.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 14, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah

Now that we don’t have Super Bowl-winning QB Dilfer there’s no hope.

If you want to go statistics, Hill’s QB rating is equal to the guy that the Bears picked up.

What was Montana’s lifetime QB rating before the year we won the first Super Bowl? I remember the Niners were 7-9 that year. Things change.

The problem with Football Outsiders, or Athlon, or Chris Mortensen or any of the others is that they are always dependent on the past, they always must base predictions on the past. Coaching and chemistry is bigger in football than other sports. And if you’ve been around you know that the future is full of surprises. That’s why people watch sports events. And dismissing any good picks by McCloughan as “luck” in a sport played with an oblate sphere is kind of ridiculous. Football is a sport where the ball bounces funny.

As far as drummer’s comments, he spends a lot of time here trying to convince everyone that there’s no hope for the Niners. But there’s always hope. That’s why we’re fans.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And if you’ve been around you know that the future is full of surprises

I agree, but I don’t think there is a problem with predictions either. In all honesty, in order to make an educated guess at something, you must first study it. In order to study it, you generally look at what it has done. In other words, you cannot study the subject based on things it has not done yet.

I think what this all boils down to, is that you either like predictions when they favour your team, or you don’t like predictions at all. I’m not accusing either of being true for you Bob, I’m just saying that while predictions aren’t always favourable, to me, they are always interesting. Perhaps for you, you just don’t like predictions, and just like going with emotion?

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree

Predictions are interesting, and if the thread wasn’t filled with commentary by a few posters who are trying very hard to convince everyone here that the Niners suck, have sucked and will suck I’d be satisfied to examine the opinions of the Football Outsiders for what they’re worth, which is what any prediction is worth. Then I would look at how their past predictions graded out. From what others have posted, they’re uneven, which suggests that they’re not perfect in their predictions.

Then I’ll look at their criticisms of the Niners and McCloughan.

Right now I feel better about McCloughan than during the Nolan era. If the team plays very badly this year then maybe it’s time to replace him. If Singletary loses the team then replace him. But those things are after the fact, not before training camp opens.

I feel pretty good about the Niners going into this season, but it’s pretty clear that a lot of experts don’t. Do they know more about football than an old guy living on the Coast? You betcha. But Fearless Frog or drummer aren’t going to convince me to give up all hope before the season.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing wrong with statistical predictions but you have to be cautious to how much weight you give them. If this were NBA basketball you could probably take these predictions to the bank. If it were baseball it would outline some interesting trends that you really need to pay attention to during the season. Since this football, you should probably be wary of the predictions.

Switching one piece on a football team can change the entire formula. Frog had a snide remark about last years FO predictions assuming Vince Young was the Titans QB, but that’s the reason to take these predictions with a grain of salt. Simply switching VY for a an assumed washed up Kerry Collins transformed the Titans from average to the team with the best regular season record. Also why football draws so much interest from gamblers and fantasy sports. Stats in football are more a bizarre echo of what occurred than explanation of what is going on.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Good points.

And I have no qualm with people who disagree with FootballOutsiders and their predictions, as long as they attempt to provide a reasonable basis as to why, and not this ’EVERYONE GUNNA PLAY HARD FOR THE COACH OLOLOL NINERSSS 14-2 SB!!!" crap.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

’EVERYONE GUNNA PLAY HARD FOR THE COACH OLOLOL NINERSSS 14-2 SB!!!"

I LOL’d.

by sfgfan on Jul 16, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

hope you don't choke on all that LOL

Dang you ought to see a doctor about that…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 16, 2009 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"If you want to go statistics, Hill’s QB rating is equal to the guy that the Bears picked up."

If you want to go further into statistics, Hill threw for far less TDs and yards than Cutler and his arm strength is probably what Cutler had in high school.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do people think the exception is the rule?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Coz its the modern day NFL. Usually the exception is the rule really. Who would’ve thought the Raiders would make the Super Bowl earlier in the decade? Or the Pats? The Cards for godsakes! I really don’t think stats mean much in football anymore. (IMO) I mean the Ravens won the Super Bowl on Defense alone. I just feel football technically can’t be defined by stats and numbers.

A unit of three hundred soldiers can take on an army of thousands and suceed if led by the right leader, the right moment and certain intangibles.

by KingsAs49erSharks on Jul 14, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

More of this intangible garbage?

I’m not sure when you started watching football but the Raiders earlier this decade were a good football team. The Pats had a great defense. The Cards had an elite passing offense coupled with a defense that suddenly became competent in the playoffs. The Ravens squad that ‘won the Super Bowl on Defense alone’ had arguably the best defense of all time.

Football can’t entirely be defined by stats and numbers but you’re incorrect if you assume you can throw them all out because of ‘intangibles’.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Which means

that Warner could be statistically predicted to return to the form of his good years before the Cards benched Leinart? That last summer the Cards’ defense could be statistically predicted to become competent at the end of the year? If I recall, the Cards gave up forty or fifty points to the Pats a few weeks before the playoffs. Were you, or drummer, or Football Outsiders statistically predicting getting blown out by a team that didn’t make the playoffs right before they made the playoffs?

I really don’t know how the Niners will do this year. They seem to be getting better, but how that relates to the rest of the division or league is anybody’s guess. I guess they’ll be better, you guess they won’t. There isn’t a bank in existence that cashes those checks.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Hence why the Cardinals were predicted to have something of a 2% chance of winning the SB.

And if I’m not mistaken, Leinart was supposed to be the starting QB when Pro Football Prospectus 2008 was published.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which means that

they didn’t even know who the starting quarterback would be? How could they rate the Cards without knowing that? Pretty bad prediction.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

If you really pay close attention to football most teams will be completely transformed due to injuries, change in schemes, etc from the team they were 4 weeks prior in the season.

About the Cardinals, most of media didn’t pay attention to the Cards until their playoff spot was guaranteed late in the season. If they watched earlier in the year when the Cards built that lead they would have known how formidable that team could be if clicking.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WAT?...

The Cards were always poised to breakout in the Media’s eyes.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This.

It seems that the Cards have been the “sleeper” pick for a lot of the media quite often in the last handful of years or so.

by sfgfan on Jul 15, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

the Cards have been the trendy “finally get it done” pick.

not super bowl favourites, by any means, but the media has been on Arizona’s weena for the past few preseasons.

aside from the year the 49ers were the trendy pick. we know what happened that year?

I’m actually glad we are written off before the season begins. Totally ok with that. I’ve always like cheering the underdog.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sleeper team to win the NFC West but not to do anything significant in post season. That was always the media darling sleeper pick.

No one was picking the Cards in the playoffs.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where do you get this?...

Link?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I need links for this? Pick any major sports website and check out there 2006-2008 pre-season predictions.

Than on these same sites re-read all their playoff articles and predictions for 2008. Some were even calling the Cards the worst team to ever make the playoffs.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Technically, they 'did' know that.

Whisenhunt basically handed Leinart the starting job on a silver platter – he just sucked so tremendously that Whiz had no choice but to start Warner.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

did you...

just finish watching “he’s just not that into you”? ha ha

"Of all the things in the world losing isn't so bad; it just starts to feel like it does when you do it for so long"

by ninerfanNVA on Jul 14, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, but my buddy informs me there's a hot scene involving Scarlett Johansson in it.

Watching it eventually has been on my to-do list for quite some time.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

umm
note that Gore’s production has dropped significantly in the two years that Staley has manned the left side

Staley only manned the left side last season, in his rookie year, Staley was the starting RT.

At 285 pounds, though, he’s undersized for a 3-4 end, so there may be some issues with wear and tear as the season goes along.

I`m not saying that`s impossible to imagine, but Smith didn`t miss a single defensive snap in 2007, and I`m pretty sure he didn`t miss one last season either. The guy may be ``undersized``, but he ain`t no marshmallow. Which is something they commonly refer to the NFC West as.

I like FO, but I don`t hold their word as the absolute fact. They are wrong just often as they are right, but seldom point out the fact they are wrong, yet jump at the chance to make claims of being right. Again, I find this stuff engrossing, just not the word of God, like some others.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 9:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Staley

Was Staley ever over at left tackle due to any in-game injury? If not, I might try and email Barnwell to see what’s up with that.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't say for sure

but seeing as Jennings was the LT, there’s certainly a possibility that the Joe Show had to go the left side in his rookie year.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

furthermore

I can’t find any gamelogs on Staley, but PFR has staley as RT in 2007, and LT in 2008. Again, they don’t have gamelogs for OL at the site, but they generally are pretty accurate as to which position the player played for the bulk of a season.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok, I dug this up
49ers | Staley could be a left tackle in the future
Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:07:44 -0800

Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, reports San Francisco 49ers OT Joe Staley could be a left tackle in the future, according to head coach Mike Nolan. If the team does not bring back OT Jonas Jennings, Staley would be expected to move to left tackle.

The time of that post came in December 2007, late in the season. If Staley hadn’t been moved to LT at all during the 2007 season, they may have made mention of it. They way this post is talking, he hadn’t played a down on the left side yet.

LINK: http://www.kffl.com/player/16116/NFL

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Staley played every snap of right takle rookie year

The Niners didn’t want to rookie takle to get messed up playing both sides.

by etb2 on Jul 14, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can't really look at Gore's production last year..

because of the Martz system and the fact they got rid of Moran Norris, so his numbers will seem a little low.

by sanfranfanmdk on Jul 14, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

I guess that wasn’t part of their statistical analysis.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WTF are you talking about? ...

Are you basing Gore’s career on the season’s without Martz? Gore had over 1000 rushing and over 400 rec in 14 games last season. You might want to figure that 2006 was the exception, rather than the norm.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno

2006 will probably be his best year but he is an above average RB like those years stats suggests. Gore alone the last two years has clawed the 49ers back into games where nothing else was working. If anything I’ve learned from Gore the last two years is he tires if you don’t limit his carries but the 49ers had no choice.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

blah blah blah

Predicting the future is always a sure thing. /sarcasm

Statistical analysis, whether it be raw or obtuse measures, can be swayed to show just about any outcome…

I can predict the future too… there is a 50% chance the 49ers will win the SB, they either will, or, they will not. Only two possible outcomes, therefor it is a 50% chance.

by danknerd49 on Jul 14, 2009 10:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Here is a difference in that...

You didn’t do any work that would make Jim Schwartz of Paraag Marathe, both fans of FO, listen to you.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

*or

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed

I am not asking anyone to listen to me. I am just stating that statistical analysis is pretty much flawed as it does not guarantee a thing.

by danknerd49 on Jul 14, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but saying there is a 50% chance the 49ers win the super bowl

because there is only two outcomes (they do or they don’t) doesn’t make sense.

that’s like saying you have a 50% chance to win the lottery, because you either will or will not win (there are many more variables to take into account).

In the 49ers case, they stand a 37.5% chance to make the NFC playoffs, just based on the fact that 6 of the 16 teams make it. There is a 12.5% chance the 49ers win a first round bye, and a 6% chance that they win home field advantage throughout the playoffs. These numbers are not factoring anything but the number of teams that make the playoffs, I’m not using stats, or any other variable.

If you go just by odds versus other teams (with not statistical bearing or talent comparison), the 49ers stand an 8% chance to win the Super Bowl. In reality that number is much smaller, because of stats, talent and all the other variables FO uses to break down percentages.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

oops that's 8% if they make the playoffs

3% from the beginning of the season, 8% if they make the playoffs.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is very simple

It is like the winning the lottery. If one plays the lottery they will either win it or not (taking in consideration winning is the jackpot, because no one says I won the lottery by winning $3, just like no team says they are the SB winning team if they made it the playoffs). Since there are no ties in the SB, there is only two possible outcomes. Win or Lose. So a team (the 49ers) will either win it or not win the SB. Two outcomes.. 50/50.

However, I do see your point and how mathematics is used to make the claims like 37.5%, 12.5% and so on… but that is still just a factor against other variables outside of being the winner or not the winner of the SB. When you look at it how you have laid it out, again, it does make mathematical sense, though the 49ers are either going to win the SB or not win if that is all you measure, which again is 50/50.

Here is another interesting tid bit (off-topic). Is the glass half empty or half full? Well, it is completely full really. Half filled with water and half filled with air 50/50.

by danknerd49 on Jul 14, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

here is some more true analytics at work (and prediction)

I predict with 100% statistical certainty that death will eventually occur to you [that is NOT a threat against you from me.. just so we are clear]

by danknerd49 on Jul 14, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are absolutely correct

in so far as this life is concerned.. No one gets out of here alive

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

again,

i’ll stand by the 49ers have a 50% shot at winning the Super Bowl, if they make it to the Super Bowl.

The fact that only two outcomes are possible do not make 50% an accurate statement prior to the team actually being in the Super Bowl. They have a 50% to win any game, each week.

I don’t think you can just measure if the 49ers are simply going to win the super bowl, or not going to win the super bowl, until they are in the super bowl itself. You can’t simply say the 49ers have a 50% shot at winning the super bowl, just because they either will or won’t win it. They have 16 games, and then a possible 3 playoff games. That’s 19 opponents standing in the way of the Super Bowl. No where near 50% odds.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

So basically what you’re saying is that if the Niners make the Super Bowl it’s simply a matter of a coin flip who’s going to win? Laughable. You’re right that there are only two possible outcomes, someone should tell Donovan McNabb that although regular season games can end in a tie the Super Bowl cannot (at least I don’t think it can), but it doesn’t mean each potential outcome is as likely as the other.

Take the Giants/Patriots Super Bowl. If that game is hypothetically played 10 times do the Giants really win 5 times. Doubtful, I might give them 2 wins, 3 at the max, out of 10 times. David Tyree makes that catch 1 out of 10 times.

There’s a lot more to football than just flipping a coin. Either that or the Detroit Lions are the most unlucky SOB on the face of the Earth.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 15, 2009 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not exactly...

I believe some of you are missing the point.

You can claim odds, statistics and all that mumbo jumbo, while it is all entertaining and such (I do enjoy it myself), it still comes down to: did they (the 49ers) win the SB or not win the SB.

You see, I doubt that Sing (or any other coach) is in the locker room telling the team before the start of the season that hey guess what guys:

‘You know we have a 3.xx% chance of winning the SB in terms of the relationship of the mathematics of us being 1 of 32 teams in the NFL and according to FO we have a 51% chance of being in loserville. So as long as we get more than 6 wins we will have shown them (being FO)’

What a great motivational speech that would be huh?

I be it is more align with the 50/50 I present:

‘Look fellas we are either gonna win it all, the SB and be the champs of the world, or we are not gonna win it. Which one do you all want? Now get out there and show the world who we are and what we our… SB champs!!!’

All these statistical analysis is for math nerds who like to calculate how many times they can roll a D20 die to effectively get the a number high enough to earn a saving throw or some shiznit like that.

by danknerd49 on Jul 15, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

FAIL

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 15, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously?

Nobody is saying that it’s been used to motivate players. Once again, it’s just one more way to look at the team.

And was it really necessary to throw in the last comment about math nerds? I think that’s the most cliched thing said on this site if you don’t include the words “smash,” “mouth,” and “football.”

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're 50/50 split is completely bogus

If you don’t understand that there’s more to football than flipping a coin, and flipping a coin is what your degrading football to when you say that in any given game any team has an equal chance of winning or losing because those are the only two outcomes available to them, then I seriously worry for you in life. BTW, the good people of Las Vegas can’t wait to meet you.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 15, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Vegas?

Sorry I don’t throw money away

by danknerd49 on Jul 15, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem you're having

is that it’s not either you win the SB or you don’t. You are clumping 31 outcomes into you don’t.

Let’s look it at it this way, using your 20 sided die. Basically, what you are saying, is there is a 50/50 chance of you rolling a 20. Either you roll a 20, or you don’t, right? Who cares that “you roll a 20” is one (1) outcome while “you don’t” is nineteen (19).

Same thing in football. Yes, either you win the SB or you don’t, but if you don’t, you have 31 ways in which you can potentially not win the SB.

by Sebaz49 on Jul 15, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's not what I meant

at all.

what I meant was, it would make more sense to say the 49ers have a 50% at winning the super bowl if they are in the super bowl. to say they have a 50% at winning just because they either will or will not makes no sense.

the 50% chance was relative (in my case) to the fact that only two teams are in the game. I was simply doing it by the numbers that one of the two teams will win, taking nothing else into consideration like stats or intangibles.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Makes more sense?
it would make more sense to say the 49ers have a 50% at winning the super bowl if they are in the super bowl.

Why does that make more sense? Why do the Niners have a 50% chance of winning the game? Before you said this,

The fact that only two outcomes are possible do not make 50% an accurate statement prior to the team actually being in the Super Bowl. They have a 50% to win any game, each week.

Which is telling me that you think any team has a 50% chance of winning any game against any oppenant. Which is complete BS.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 15, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

exactly

that was my entire point. just because there are two outcomes, does not make the percentages 50%.

his argument is that the team either will or will not win the super bowl. the only time 50% would make sense in the equation is if they were in the super bowl and nothing else was measured except the fact that 1 of the 2 has to win.

its as ridiculous as saying the 49ers stand a 50% chance to win any game, each week. There’s no statisical, intangible, or any merit determing the percentanges by saying there are only two outcomes. That does not make something a 50/50 shot.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Listen to me for a second please

I already stated I understand how the 3.xx% chance of winning the SB at the start of the season because the Niners are 1 of 32 teams, I understand that FO puts get amount of time and energy into their analysis of upcoming seasons. I get that, really I do… I understand statistics.

What I am trying to state that in the end, there will is only two outcomes:

1. 49ers win the SB
2. 49ers don’t win the SB

Anything else is irrelevant… because if the coaches and players have the attitude of hey we are winners we went 8-8, that isn’t losing season, then they shouldn’t be playing professional sports at all.

All I am asking, which I know I probably wont get from anyone, is just a moment to realize this. That there is a 50% chance of the 49ers winning the SB, because they will or they wont… two outcomes and these are the only two outcomes I care about, err, well just the one really (winning the SB).

I guess this all stems from my own personal conviction (which someone has already stated that they would be worried for me in life, for some odd reason??) is that everything is 50/50, it is either going to happen or not and no statistical analysis is going to determine the outcome ultimately, it may provide insight, while interesting it is still pointless. How many times have you heard of story of someone beating the odds, whether it be health related, career or educational reasons and so on. Did the statistics that backed up what was suppose to happen? No.. there were two outcomes and one of them came to be true.

I guess I am just a crazed-49er game, because every game the 49ers do not win, it is because the other team cheated and that is what I believe because I am 100% for the 49ers.

by danknerd49 on Jul 15, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did the 2007 49ers..

Have a 50/50 shot at winning the SB?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Completely hopeless

Unless you’re playing the fool and in that case you deserve a gig in Hollywood. But I suspect your more of a testament to how crappy the education system in the US is, assuming you’re still not in the 5th grade, than anything else.

I’ll try, although I’m confident this will prove futile, one last time. Just because there are two possible outcomes it does not mean that each outcome has the sample possibility of happening. Once again, football is not as simple as flipping a coin where each possible outcome, the coin will either land face up or face down, has the same possibility of happening.

Let’s take shooting a basketball for example, when you shoot a basketball you’ve got two possible outcomes you miss or make the shot. By your logic, danknerd49, NBA players should only be making 50% of their free throws and should be making 50% of their 3 pointers because they can either miss or make those shots. However, anybody that’s watched five minutes of basketball knows that NBA players routinely make over 50% of their free throws and rarely make 50% of their 3 pointers. Why does this happen? Because their are outside influences that tilt the probability of each possible outcome for each situation one way or the other.

In football, not every team is created equal. Some teams have superior players and some teams have superior coaching when compared the rest of the teams. Those factors, amongst others, all affect the possibility of a given team winning or losing a given game. Again, by your logic, the 2008 Detroit Lions had the same chance of going undefeated as they did going 0-16 and same with the 2007 New England Patriots. Now do you truly believe that?

BTW, you aren’t by chance looking for a bookie because I’d love to do business with you if you are.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 16, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

wait...

…are you saying that the only thing worth listening to when it comes to prediction is something that guarantees the outcome? that’ s an impossibly high standard, no? are you just anti-prediction altogether?

i’m not trying to be a prick here, just honestly curious about what kind of “analysis” you’d agree with. taking your statement to its logical conclusion means the answer is none, since no analysis -statistical or otherwise - can ever objectively guarantee a result.

by Florida Danny on Jul 14, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not at all...

I never said that analysis isn’t necessarily not worth listening to. In fact I rather like it for my own personal enjoyment to battle boredom. Although I would say that any analysis that promotes or concludes a predicted result is never a guarantee, we should all know this via common sense.

I guess ultimately the only analysis I would agree with is that the Niners are number one, going to win the SB and be 19-0… now there is a statement I can get behind. Why would I want to agree with people who would say the Niners are gonna be the next Lions at 0-16? That doesn’t make sense as a fan(natic) of a specific team.

by danknerd49 on Jul 14, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So that is why

people are so anoyed by political polls… makes people take their eye of the real issues. and focus on who’s go the best poll numbers…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what do politics and sports have to with each other?

any rational person can separate the two (I would agree to the notion that rationality doesn’t exist in most people so your words probably hold a lot of truth and value).

by danknerd49 on Jul 14, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the rational for viewing the outcome

of a particular event based on historical trends,historical data, and such is domed to failue as it only considers the historical data.. In order to get a clearer picture of the posible future outcome is factor in any posible future events.. In which case please review the planed future events of the data being considiered., posible future events from opposing events and such…

Forecasting 101

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

perhaps...

…you weren’t following Nate Silver’s forecasting of the 2008 election?

he basically hit the election on the nose…his projection system, which simulated the election using historical data and results of a regression analysis, only got 1 state wrong (MO) in the electoral college, missed the popular vote by 1%, and got every Senate election right.

point is…projection is by no means “doomed to failure” because it’s based on historical data. also, when statistical projection is done correctly, it’s a lot more accurate than the sports or political talking heads could every dream to be.

by Florida Danny on Jul 14, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, by the way...

here’s the link to his prediction for 2008

also, keep in mind this is the guy who predicted the tampa bay rays to blow up from nowhere in baseball last season…by using historical data.

by Florida Danny on Jul 14, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When are elections as difficult to predict as a football season?

In all seriousness, political elections have always had several powerful, yet reliable factors that can always be counted on in projections. You are comparing the outcomes of Paper-Rock-Scissors to a game Keno.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

projections

But to project electoral votes and popular vote, and Senate elections? That’s a rather complicated game of rock-paper-scissors.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not that it matters...

…but that’s certainly an answer i can’t really argue with. thanks for being honest and not taking my comment the wrong way.

by Florida Danny on Jul 14, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I predict that no matter what data

 is crammend into a mathimatical model there is always and I mean always an X factor that nobody can predict. I contend that in any forecasting model there is a 50% chance that it will no be correct.. with this logic go ahead and predict… just don’t expect me to belive it is any better than watching a game and enjoying the heck out of the prognosticators being wrong.

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

there isn't a 50% chance...

…of being wrong. that’s just factually incorrect. it has nothing to do with “forecasting.” just incorrect according to the laws of probability.

just because an event has a binary outcome (e.g., win or loss), it doesn’t mean that the probability of that outcome is 50%. in a totally random phenomenon, like flipping a coin, the probability of the binary outcome (i.e., heads or tails) is, in fact, 50%. however, if i gave you a rigged coin that gave one side an advantage, e.g., lands heads 100% of the time, then the probability of heads would not be 50% anymore. rather it’d be 100%, regardless of the fact that tails is on the other side of the coin.

predicting the winner of a football game is just like this. if a game was a totally random event, ala a coin flip, then the probability of a given team winning would, in fact, be 50%. however, a football game is not totally random. one team almost always has an advantage going into the game, ala the rigged coin. statistical projection in football is the science of accurately assigning that advantage to one team or the other. only when the teams are entirely evenly matched is the actual probability of a given team winning 50%.

by Florida Danny on Jul 14, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

I know I said I was done and in fact I am

but I just had to this… Where does a snow plow or a snow ball inter the equasion?

All in fun . I do wish all a good evening…

Gooo Ninerssss..

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 10:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad to see the niners being overlooked

Hopefully we catch some teams by surprise early. I think our division foes, however won’t take us lightly, aside form arizona since they swept us. The rams know they suck and the seahawks know we come to play. Putting up 30 plus with that offense is not a reason to think we can’t beat them. Can’t wait for the season

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 14, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I won’t regard this as total B.S. but I wouldn’t pay any extra attention to FO’s analysis compared to others. The NFL is crazy unpredictable because of injuries, one-year wonders and several other factors. I am certain nobody except very optimistic Dolphins or Falcons’ fans predicted they would go to the playoffs in 2008-09.

The trendy pick to go to the playoffs last year was the Browns, and they ended up not scoring an offensive TD in their last 6 games while finishing 4-12. Now, I’m not saying the 49ers will win 10+ games but I do think they are a solid team with an above average defense, a Pro Bowl RB and finally some decent wideouts since the Rice-TO days. The QB situation is huge as I am sure if Hill/Smith does well, so will the team and vice versa. JTO’s awful play in the first half of last season was evident in their 2-7 start.

However, I do believe this is the last chance for both Hill and Smith to be considered as the “QB of the future” (I use this term very loosely) for the 49ers because if they both struggled – Niners will be looking to draft a first round QB in 2010 especially with 2 first rounders.

Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems

by Scooter Ellis on Jul 14, 2009 11:04 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I Can't Handle This!!!

You guys are killing me! 2% this, 11% that.. So There Is A Chance B.S., (however that was and is freaking halirous!)… I know this about that… The 49ers were a 1/2 yard away from beating the Cardinals last year on Monday Night which would have changed the the entire season and we would of either made the playoffs or had a playoff like game like Denver and San Diego. The 49ers under Singletary are a team that week in and week out will be in contention… Most teams say luck plays a part in every succesful team. You put yourself in position to succeed and then hope that you get lucky. Examples like “The Catch” 1 and 2, The emmaculate reception and the last two S.B. wins. For these reasons and others if we can just beat those in our division as we almost did last year, dispite all the things working against us, we will make to the playoffs and thats when the true intangibles come out!!!!!

Through the darkest times we see the brightest lights...

by elvisike77 on Jul 14, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

no worries elvisike77

FO has been wrong before, there’s no telling just how accurate this prediction is until the 2009 season is over.

If they end up being wrong about it, I’m sure we’ll hear about it from Niners Nation. If they end up correct, I’m sure we’ll hear about it from FO. lol ;)

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah

And ask Tenessee about the unlucky side of almost winning!!!

Through the darkest times we see the brightest lights...

by elvisike77 on Jul 14, 2009 11:22 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jim Schwartz..

Is a friend of Aaron Katz, and even crunches numbers with him.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They fail to mention this...

But on this very website, the exhaustive research (I think from the Florida dude) pointed out that the 49ers did better running behind Staley and Baas than behind Rachal and Snyder. Staley is actually quite good, and will only get better. Remember it was the first time Baas and Staley played the bulk of a season together.

by Indiana Jim on Jul 14, 2009 11:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

that's a good point Jim...

…pretty surprising, seeing as how, after reading the Niner chapter, they basically vindicated several of the arguments I’ve made on this very website in re perpetual mediocrity, draft failure, and team identity issues.

by Florida Danny on Jul 14, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

on that note

when are we going to see more Florida Danny posts, Danny?

my head hasn’t exploded in a while from statistical intake, and I’m looking forward to it.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

stay tuned...

…i’ll be back in the saddle in the coming weeks. fooch and i are planning stuff out right now.

by Florida Danny on Jul 14, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I predict the predictions are all predictably unpredictable.

Yawn. It’s all just so much nonsense I don’t even bother reading this kind of stuff anymore. There are just too many variables – injuries, matchups, rivalries, competitiveness, weather, zebras, and phase of the moon that make these kinds of predictions pretty much worthless. The 9ers play in the NFC West and we are competitive within that division, which means this team could win the division and enter the playoffs. And the Cards demonstrated last year that any team, no matter how mediocre, has a chance to make it to the big game once in the playoffs.

Personnel? McCloughan has improved the quality pretty dramatically over the last few years – Willis, J. Smith, Spikes, Staley, etc., so I don’t understand the knock there. Anybody here think these guys wouldn’t be claimed within picoseconds of hitting the practice squad?

But writers must write and publishers must publish, even in the offseason, so we get our yearly dose of ridiculous speculation based upon dubious interpretations of imperfect statistics. Kind of like politicians in the election season – lots of fire and thunder signifying nothing. Go Niners!

by MontanaPass on Jul 14, 2009 12:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That's kinda FO's point..

If the 49ers had played in a tougher division, they would be DET.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But they don't and aren't. Pointless speculation.

And that’s my point here. Extrapolating imperfect statistics into imaginary scenarios is not useful except to fill space and time and perhaps entertain. My other point is that attempting to make predictions for the season is also pretty much a waste of time because of the intangible variables that aren’t quantified and included in the analysis. There are just too many things that can affect a team’s season that are completely unpredictable to make predictions like this useful. Seattle last year is a good example – did FO, or anyone else, predict they would suffer injuries to enough starters to put them in the dumps? Should Seattle’s performance this year be based upon their performance last year under these conditions? And it’s not just injuries that can cause dramatic changes in fortunes – coaching changes, scheme changes, additions/subtractions of key players, etc, etc. So, like I said before, imho all these predictions are pretty much worthless.

by MontanaPass on Jul 14, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a good point..

But with a clean slate before every season, without injuries, as well as going back 4 years that they base the forecast on, it’s still pretty tangible. I don’t know if they predicted the 1999 Rams, yet who would? But the 1999 Rams had Trent Green instead of the 2009 49ers having……

??

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The intangible turns into a tangible

when one considers that in football “… the measure of the whole is grater than the sum of its parts….” So factor that into your equasion let see if it coughs up a hair ball…. or somthing…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're missing something here..

This kind of stuff FO puts out is studied by a lot of Front Office people in the NFL. So what you think isn’t “tangible” might just be.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here it is in a way that you will understand

MY formula ( not FO) MINE is this

T= team (whole)
P= players, plays. (parts)
x= unknown tangible which makes it (intangible)

T=(P+x)

Now as I said: when some can accurately calculate x then they will stop playing the game because the outcome will have already been predicted with undenieable fact.

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point...

I didn’t mean make it seem like yours was irrelevant. I just find this kind of stuff fascinating.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

drummer

How come you spend all your time here trying to convince us that the Niners suck?

What do you get out of it?

We all know that they haven’t been very good most of this decade. And none of us know what will happen this season.

Make your predictions, make your points and be done with it. We’re all entitled to our opinions. It’s not your job to convince everyone to sink into your well of negativity.

Two years ago I complained a lot here about Nolan and Hostler. I generated a lot of hostility. Now I realize that while I was correct about Hostler my constant whining about it wasn’t changing anything and it irritated a number of the posters here.

At this point the only thing you’re proving is that you don’t like the Niners. We get it.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No you don't get it...

If you don’t like my opinion, than fine, but whining about it without anything else to counter is your problem, not mine. If you want sunshine blown up your rear end, then scroll past my posts. You are being very hypocritical here as well. I guess it’s OK for you to espouse your opinion, but not others.

I am a 49er fan, but not Ninerfan. Ninerfan is the equivalent to Raiderfan. Are you Ninerfan?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've got your opinion.

I’m not whining about your opinion. Not whining at all, so maybe you have a reading problem. If you reread what I wrote I said “We’re all entitled to our opinions.”

I’m telling you that if you are posting here on a Niners’ fansite to convince others that there is no hope for the Niners this year then you are either very naive about the concept of fansites or you are looking for a fight to compensate for some emotional issue which has nothing to do with the San Francisco 49ers. We can speculate on why you are doing this. Maybe you are a Niner fan who got frozen with Montana. There are a few of those. Or maybe you’re not really a 49er fan. I don’t care and I don’t come here to discuss you.

Elsewhere you post statistical trends based on the 2004 Niners. Inadvertantly you showed how useless statistical trends can be.

If you are so sure that the Niners will suck, tell us why, tell us how each player will fail, and please gives us the stats for the other teams in the division. That would be interesting. But don’t act like an *ss, insult others and then pretend that someone has impugned your integrity.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

If you're gonna...

address certain posts, link them. If you have a problem with me as a fan, than start aq fanpost so we can thake it there. Otherwise, keep focused on what this thread is all about. I’m telling you this for the sake of this thread. If you have a probelm, we can take it soemwhere else, and I’ll be glad to straighten you out on your misperceptions.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a second.

Because the Cardinals fluked themselves all the way to the into the SB, you think the 49ers have a shot at doing so too? It’s not even just you, other commenters here actually say things like that.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. I think the 9ers can win the division.

And if that happens, they have a legitimate chance to make it to the SuperBowl. There is no cause-and-effect between the Cards making it there and the 9ers making it, but it does prove that it is possible.

by MontanaPass on Jul 14, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just so that there is no confusion

I am replying to MontanaPass who echos my on view…Niners over the Hawks, Cards, Rams to win the Div 11-5. And No I do not have a pocket full of stats to back that up. Just pure FAN support.

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, fan support does not determine the outcome of games.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish it could..

I’d be the happiest 49er/Laker/Sharks/Giants/Nephew’s Team fan around.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is the Seattle home crowed called?

The 12th man. Who, most think they play a role in the home teams victory. Fan support can help deremine the outcome of a game. Us, fans just think we play a bigger role then what we actually do.

by etb2 on Jul 14, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the outcome of games doesn't determine my support

that’s why they call us FANS which as you know is short for FANATIC…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nor does

your posts. Fortunately.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is relevant...how?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My posts determining the outcomes of games.

Unlike WC-Ninerfan, I’m not claiming them to, so why would even bother commenting on that?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many Horse racing experts

were found eating thier copy when Mine That Bird won the Derby…

Go!!!! Ninersss!!!!!

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 12:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I like pure fan support

and that feeling about my team, its different then in years past, a little more optomistic.

by etb2 on Jul 14, 2009 12:44 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

How many LEARNED

sports writers and other wise “informend” indiviutals would have given Sanchez a chance at a no hitter…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 1:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

None

I still can’t believe it. But, I will take it and be real happy. Go Sanchez Go Giants. Go Niners.

by etb2 on Jul 14, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything

no hitters don’t happen every year, but a team wins the world series every year (don’t say anything about 1994, anything).

so in this case, the FO are simply just providing a percentage of chance the 49ers have at winning the SB, something that one team in the NFL does every year. The fact that FO gave the 49ers a 2% chance at being Super Bowl contenders is only 1% off of the 49ers actually percentage odds (1/32) of winning. The 49ers also have a 6% chance at representing the NFC in the big game (1/16).

Obviously if the Niners make the playoffs, their odds go up considerably. But basically, you can only look into the numbers so much. For the most part, I’d rather have someone give me a calculated prediction, than one based on a whim.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok so here is a simple but effective

percentage break down of the numbers as I see them. No handicaping based on QB ratings, etc.ect, blah,blah,blah. Just straight up

The niners have a 6.25% chance of making it to the super bowl ( 16nfc teams)
The niners have 3.125% chance of winning the SB (32 nfl teams)

this number chrunching stuff is really hard..So can I get paid at the same rate as some ding dong at FO???

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 2:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If you don't really know how this stuff works...

Then you shouldn’t waste your time trivializing it. Your starting to look like a scorned lover here.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So.. I pose a question

Given the "numbers " that these guys have produced. What if anything would you anyone reading this post do with them? I mean so what that these guys have come up with this dismal prediction? Will change your oppinion of the Niners? Or will you use these numbers to hedge a bit in Vegas? Just curious..

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here is something to chew on...

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff2007
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff2006
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff2005
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff2004

This is part of where FO draws upon when it to their forecast. Last season, 2 teams in the NFCW suffered some serious injuries. The 49ers had an advantage against those 2 teams, yet they lost one to SEA, and nearly lost one to STL. In other words, against weak opposition due to they being injured, the 49ers didn’t really dominate either one.

When you look at FO’s ranking’s from 2004, you tend to see a trend here, and it’s not even as upward as you think.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My question still stands

So what?? what is a person to do with this. Should I forget about rooting for the niners this because the “experts” say will suck. They may influance how or if a person makes a bet but outside of that they really don’t serve any purpose.

Oh well I will move on..

Just a DIE HARD NINIER FAN

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those are just stats...

They have compiled to “flesh out” a team’s performance weighted on particular situations. If you’ve read the SFWeekly article I posted in this thread, it kinda indicates how this type of analysis is starting to permeate itself into the NFL. I’ve read somewhere that the Houston Rockets coach is using a stat model to build his team, and Billy Beane swears by this kind of stuff.

So it isn’t just superfluous stuff bandied about.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just for shits and grins

Seems like these are not
WAG numbers pulled together with ROMA numbers
but are SWAG numbers that are supported by some real data…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

for those who don't know

a WAG is a Wild Ass Gues
a SWAG is a Scientific Wlild Ass Gues
and ROMA data is Right Out of My Ass data..

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh?

Okay, let me see. Alex Smith. Now he certainly sucked when he had no receivers and a broken shoulder and he didn’t even complete one pass last season, the bum. Get out your calculator and give us his passing rating for 2009. Or maybe not being able to throw a football isn’t a serious injury for a Niner quarterback in your book, drummer.

So who starts at quarterback for how many games for the Hawks this year? How indestructible is Warner? Does a rookie miss a block this year and watch Bulger go down in a heap? Give us the odds, because if you know then I can take up team shuffleboard for Sunday afternoons this fall.

Or just give us this statistic. How many players and coaches on the 2004 team are on the 2009 team? Because I want to figure out what McKillop will do this year based on someone else who was playing for the Niners five years ago. You know, based on statistical trends.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Based on statistical trends,

it seems fairly obvious that a backup rookie LB is going to make almost no impact whatsoever in 2009, aside from perhaps special teams.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Based on the roster of 2004?

You missed what I wrote. Reread the post. Carefully. Try again. Then give me McKillop’s stats for 2009, unless you admit that you don’t really know what’s happening in the future, which is kind of the point here.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

FO numbers

For me, personally, it might give me a little pause on getting to over the top excited about the 2009 49ers. I still think this is a team capable of 9 wins, but I also realize, as the percentages would indicate, that that’s not a sure-fire guarantee.

One thing that I’m intrigued about this season is the result of Shaun Hill possibly getting a full season at the helm. Hill has certainly played well in spurts, but it has come against some pretty sorry opponents. FO points to the fact that it’s hard to tell what Shaun Hill is capable of given the limited sample size. If Shaun Hill performs at a modestly solid level (not really sure what that level would be), that changes the proverbial equation a fair amount.

No single projection is going to be right, whether it be statistically based, or coming from your gut. I’m of the belief that you consider both. I’m willing to think that there are just enough potential x-factors to sway the final result. At the same time, those x-factors (Hill, a fully healthy Lawson, etc…) swinging the wrong way would end up proving FO correct. I think one tough area to measure is the x-factor(s). So consider me a proponent of both qualitative and quantitative analysis.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hill

I was excited about Hill’s chance to be #1 all year. Then… I re-watched all of Hills offensive possessions from last year. Its just not that impressive. I give him credit for effort or so called “moxie” but when he had to squeeze the ball in to tight coverage the ball fell flat (like 5 yards in front of the WR).
In order for us to beat these predictions we are going to need a QB that simply can make every throw on the field. The only guy on our roster with potential and NFL experience is Alex Smith.

I really have to equate the possibility of our success as proportional to the actualization of Smith’s potential. That may sound like a return to an 06’ scenario, but keep this in mind; we are clearly a much better team, and as reported recently, Smith is clearly more physically and mentally matured.

by goatfather on Jul 14, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think there is merit in looking at

QB and WR releation ship. meaning that in a season when Hill could be the starter from the get go . That would result in yet another intangible that can not be counted in the stats.. One of the reasons why great teams of the past and today have effective passing games is that the QB will gain a sense of how the WR will run a route and adjust accordingly, or the WR will make a “come back” move to get to the ball. That is what made Montana to Clark such a sucess and so on. Not saying that Hill couldn’t use more work on the arm and perhaps he’ll get through this coaching staff. This rationale applies to Smith as well sense his issue has been acuracy rather arm strength

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Riiiiight...

There is a relationship between Crabtree or Jones with Hill? Those guys could end up as #1 and #2 not unreasonably. Is that not more of the over the top threat we need in this system?

Secondly, it was only Bruce who came back to the receiver. Even more importantly, the only reason those “comeback” throws happened last season was because Hill scrambled as a result of 3 and 4 wide formations.
Also Smith was always very good at finding those receivers on a scramble, as a matter of fact it was considered one of his strengths.

by goatfather on Jul 14, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you don't understand human nature

don’t waste our time with your negativity. You’re starting to look like a scorned lover. A scorned, bitter lover. Very bitter.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing about FO predictions ...

… is that they assume that players will perform about how they performed in previous seasons.

But this isn’t always the case. For example, a coaching change can put players in a better position to succeed. We saw this last year, and it applies especially to Lawson, Davis, etc.

The backwards-looking nature of their analysis is highlighted when they say that Haralson is the only second-day pick who will start. Josh Morgan, anyone?

In football, turnover is the norm. Greg Easterbrook focuses on this a lot: there’s USUALLY a lot of turnover between division winners every year. Since most rosters aren’t overhauled that much every season, what it really means is that there’s a large year-to-year x-factor, something you can’t easily predict.

I tend to find FO’s DVOA statistics much more meaningful in analysing late-season games than they are in analyzing year-to-year, where there are bigger changes.

by Ronaldinho on Jul 14, 2009 2:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree.

But what was FO’s prediction for the Cards after they got shellacked by the Pats? Within one score of Super Bowl champs?

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

FOOCH!!!

I’d like to know what the TOP team’s predictions were compared to us. So were the Patriots 3% to win Superbowl or 50%? Giants, Steelers, etc……..If they are only 10-20% or something than 2% is more than fair for us whom MAY or MAY NOT get out of the division in 1st place.

by hudd07 on Jul 14, 2009 3:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Other teams

Will do. I’m thinking I’ll put together a separate post on that (random observations looking at other teams).

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never really have much thought on percentages and odds.

by shark94112 on Jul 14, 2009 4:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

thats wierd

because your thoughts are made up of (partly) percentages and odds.

by goatfather on Jul 14, 2009 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright. You got a point there.

by shark94112 on Jul 30, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

this means nothing.

these projections mean nothing. this whole thread means nothing. i cant beleive i’m actually wasting my time typing this.

I take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.

by these3words on Jul 14, 2009 6:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

then don't waste your time

There are people who are intrigued by this kind of info. Some take it as gospel, others consider it as one part of their overall view of the team. Either way it’s just one more way to look at the team.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am done with this one

Good luck keeping cooler heads to prevail.. Guess there is a lot of emotion here…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

intangibles vs. stats

I knew this post would raise some emotions given the battle between the intangible folks and the stat folks. As I’ve said before, I like to consider both of them, even if you can’t measure intangibles.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's perfectly fine.

It’s people who think intangibles (and Singletary’s physicality with an F!) are going to carry this team into the Super Bowl while laughing at the rest of the league who are mildly irritating.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Frog

Get used to being IRRATATED with a capital I.

Sorry folks,, just like the stats,, you just cant count any thing…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's the first real glimpse...

Into the season from well, outsiders. I can take only so much from the usual outlets that don’t really have that much info that we haven’t read or know already. One of the reasons why I think this site is one of the best is because Fooch recognizes the cutting edge’s of modern football. We can only talk about “Who is our favorite 49er?” for so long. This can provide some really good talking points once we accept it.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks

There’s a million ways to look at the game of football. If a person chooses to completely ignore one view, they might miss out on something essential to a team’s success or failure.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

drummer

I like your comment. Again, it’s nice to hear what someone who is not BIASED thinks of our chances. I take this post more to heart than Fooch and Prof Big’s post on what they think our record will be game by game. No offense fellas but we are pretty biased when it comes to our favorite team. While PB thinks we can get by the Vikings IF we play to our potential, it’s nice to see what someone that crunches numbers over 99% of our heads thinks our potential is. Could they be wrong, well the stats show they can ;-) but it’s generated a LOT of comments and that’s the point of it all. I always like to hear what the chance of us being good is from someone with no bias. All reporters are biased, all fans are biased, coaches, players, announcers, you guessed it…all biased. Number and stats however, just tell what is in front of them. That’s all. Everyone seems booty hurt about our chances, well let’s discuss it, and keep our fingers crossed our team over produces. That’s all we can hope for.

by hudd07 on Jul 15, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stats and Percentages vs. Intangibles

It’s all about the intangibles. At the beginning of the season everyone is equal. You are always going to have players that are better than others in the stat category(Manning and Brady vs. everyone else) but it is still a team sport. Having that player may boost your chances of winning but it’s still on the team as a whole. That’s why teams like the Cards last year(Who overall were not that good) can get hot and give a powerhouse like the Steelers a run for their money or even the Giants(Who were not that great either) that got hot enough to take down the undefeated Pats.

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Jul 14, 2009 8:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

So really...

There is a chance DET wins the Super Bowl?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just saying....

Intangibles are what make the game of football so great. Stats and percentages are an added bonus to me. Put it this way. Jerry Rice has incredible stats. Incredible! He has the rings to go along with em as well. If he didn’t have the rings but had the stats he would happily give them all up just for rings. I’m sure Marino would give all of his stats up too if it meant he could’ve won just 1 ring. My point is like I said, those great players are going to give you a chance to win but it’s all on the team to really make it happen. I will always stick to the “Anyone can win” motto. It’s been proven before. You want stats and percentages go watch a baseball game lol.

Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.

by maveric_87 on Jul 14, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"At the beginning of the season everyone is equal."

So you’re saying the Detroit Lions are equal to, say, the New England Patriots?

No.

At the beginning of the season, everyone has the same record. However, some teams are clearly superior in terms of talent, coaching, etc.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

2003: Buffalo crowns New England 31-0 in Buffalo. The Bills had signed Lawyer Milloy after the Pats cut the veteran safety. The Patriots went on to win 14-2, the Bills 6-10.

Oh, and in the final week of the season, The Patriots returned the favour, beating the Bills 31-0. The Patsies won the Super Bowl, and all was well in Foxboro.

At the beginning of the season, in week 1, any team, can win any game. It doesn’t mean everyone is a Super Bowl contender, it just that “any given sunday” intangible. Oh crap, I said intagible.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So DET is equal..

to the 49ers?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

but I think they stand a better chance to beat the 49ers in week 1, than in week 5.

wait, what week do we play the Leos again?

At the beginning of the season, in week 1, any team, can win any game. It doesn’t mean everyone is a Super Bowl contender

I should’ve mentioned “or equal to one another” at the end of the statement. sorry for the miscommunication.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I want so see how Schwartz does with DET..

Heck, if it weren’t for the Power of the Point (or York Sr an easy sell), we might have seen FO in action on this team.

Jeebus, how and the heck could they have missed on that?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paraag

as long as Paraag is employed, FO is in action for this team, sort of.

but I think this is what I’m getting from your Schwartz comment: because he is an advocate of FO, these Niner Nations “intangible” nay-sayers (to FO) would not feel the same way about FO if an FO “guy” was the team’s HC?

Maybe I just simply read too much into that comment about Schwartz. I think he will put together a team that will compete. Heck, he’s got Cavlin freakin’ Johnson, he’ll be able to figure something out. Will the Lions win a Super Bowl? Not likely, but those odds can increase each season with progression.

The problem is, I don’t think Schwartz can out live Ford Sr. (even though he is a bag). And as long as Ford Sr. is owner of the Lions, the Lions will be a doormat. The guy is more bonkers than Al Davis. The only reason he gets away with it, is with the beautiful Ford Field. Senior will find a way to mess up a good opportunity with Schwartz.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slight problem,

‘Any given Sunday’ is truly on any given Sunday; there’s no correlation between upsets happening earlier in the season than they do in the middle or end.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How does one measure one teams intangibles...

Against another team’s intangibles?

Does Singletary posses more intangibles than Belechick?

If he does, explain what those intangibles are?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 14, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I thought was interesting was thisa comment

Day 2 picks: Indicates SF will only start 1 player they drafted after the second round under McCloughan (Haralson)

I can name at least one other player who will start that they drafted after the second round.

Frank Gore. Drafted in 3rd Round. He at least was a steal :)

If I remember correctly Dashon Goldson who is slated to start this year was a later round pick also.

It just gives more reason to believe they have us a little low. :)

by snowweasel30 on Jul 14, 2009 8:44 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

after round 2

Excellent point on Goldson. Unless they figure he won’t be healthy?

I’m guessing they consider Gore a “Nolan” pick.

by Fooch on Jul 14, 2009 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

also

when gore was selected in round 3, that year round 3 was on day one. sly foxes at FO.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

no, not at all

I’m not one to make that claim against FO, I’m just pointing that out.

drummer, seriously, I’m not here to attack FO, don’t start with me man! lol

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just a philosophical point

I don’t get why people take these statistics as a personal affront; Math doesn’t take sides.

The way that these things work is that you take starting data, run a process, and end up with some results. you then print them in a magazine, as a way of looking at the season ahead. Is it interesting? sure.

Are they telling you that you’re a worse person for being a fan of a given team, or that there’s no point in turning out and watching a game?

No.

So like, ignore the results if you don’t like them. Hell, criticise the process, if you can find a statistical basis to do so (I don’t know enough about football, myself).

But seriously., there’s no point in waiving your hands in the air and complaining that the results are wrong because you don’t like them.

by bobnothing on Jul 14, 2009 9:15 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Bravo.

Tell this to WC-Ninerfan and he might actually make some progress.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 14, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Progress is measured by results not stats..

So until the season begins… Yes FO is MOOT with a capital M

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 14, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WC

I think the main point here, is that FO isn’t just using simple statistics to make a prediction. Their claim to fame is that they break down every play or every game. For example if Frank Gore runs for 6 yards on 4th and 7, the stat goes down in the books as a six yard carry. FO removes that aspect of it. The play resulted in six yards, but was equivalent to an incomplete pass, because it did not net a first down.

I know it seems like a lot of little details, but that’s what makes them who they are. They don’t just toss stats out there, they calculate their own stats.

I don’t know if this explains it any better or not, or if I’m totally accurate. But I will try to illustrate that point to you as not an FO evangelist, but as someone who is entertained by the idea of “off the box score” stats.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2009 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

First, I've I had a lot of training in statistics and second that adage that 'Stats are lies' is statistically almost always true.

Before believing any stat:

1st. Know every stats course starts out with the lesson that “Past history does not guarantee accurate prediction of future performance”. Real emphasis when analyzing human behavior.

2nd. The setup and assumptions of the statistical analysis are far more important than any derived numbers. The numbers for the Scot McCloughan-era hold up in the future if you assume changing Nolan for Singletary has no significant impact.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 12:59 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think the change from Nolan does...

This team always seems to be better with some “tweaks”, but not very good overall. Singletary isn’t a major overhaul, and his hiring of Raye showed where the overall philosophy of the team lies. That really is based on luck, with Turner being available. There is no clear cut direction here. The current 49ers are really a team that is fortunate to play in a bad division. If they were in the NFCE, they would be doormats. Singletary would not be able to rise above that with what he has in this cupboard, due to the haphazard Front Office he still has.

Chances are if the 49ers do tank, ScotM would get fired first. Not Singletary.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’d the say the main difference I see between Nolan and Singletary is Nolan’s philosophy was to aim for vanilla on both sides of the ball in order to create a close game and win by intangibles. Singletary’s philosophy is more aggressive. He wants to establish a power run and he wants his defense to fly around and react instead of scheme and confuse. I think you are going to see a huge difference in aggressiveness between the two coaches

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I’d the say the main difference I see between Nolan and Singletary is Nolan’s philosophy was to aim for vanilla on both sides of the ball in order to create a close game and win by intangibles."

It seems unlikely Nolan actually tried to have his team play so that games are close.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sad but true

Nolan wasn’t dialing up a lot of 9 yard plays, instead he wanted to run the play that garnered 4 yards. On defense his motto was to drop back and hold the opponent 1 yard short of the 1st down instead of getting aggressive with a blitz in hope of making a big play. Nolan was always afraid of the big play backfiring so he asked his offense to produce 17 points and his defense to hold the opponent to 16 points. In my words, vanilla because he certainly wasn’t pressing an advantage other than special teams.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this

Nolan was afraid of the big play, unless it were an onside kick.

Nolan would be foolish if he thought 17 points per game were enough to win on a consistent basis in the NFL, so I’m not sure I agree with that aspect. In 2008, in his 7 games, it seemed Nolan was finally starting to risk things offensively. Sadly, we know who was quarterbacking, and how the Mike Martz experiment finished. With Hostler the year prior, it seemed like the team never bought into the scheme of things, and that’s probably an indication that Nolan should’ve been canned prior to 2008.

Anyway, Nolan is the past. I hope he does well as DC in Denver. I’m not completely upset with the players he brought in.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's about managing the expectation...

He did after all have a fairly green team. Hiring Martz was pretty darn aggressive if not dumb.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that is was both aggressive and dumb. Martz is ultra aggressive but a dumb hire because the 49ers had no personal to match his philosophy on football.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except

that last year the team had a losing record with Nolan and a winning record with Singletary. That statistic would be called “won-lose percentage”.

You’ve determined that Raye isn’t a change from Martz, too. What stat proves that?

And if the Niners were in the NFC Central you’d have to move California a couple thousand miles east. That’s not even statistics, that’s geography and reality. The Niners are in the NFC West.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"that last year the team had a losing record with Nolan and a winning record with Singletary. That statistic would be called "won-lose percentage"."

That would also be called overachieving with the league’s easiest second-half schedule, barely edging out terrible teams like the Rams and Bills, and only beating 1 team with a winning record in that span (the Jets), who really didn’t play anything remotely like a team with a winning record after week 8.

“You’ve determined that Raye isn’t a change from Martz, too. What stat proves that?”

Raye’s offenses have averaged only 18 points a game.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bills

I wouldn’t call them terrible. Definitely better than the Rams.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't quote me on this,

but didn’t the Bills go 0-6 in division play and win only 1 game in their last 10?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Correct on record, won 2 of last 10

I’m not saying they’re good, but I don’t think they’re terrible. I think there is some solid talent there.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's solid, even elite, talent on the Lions, too.

The Bills might be talented but there’s no arguing they were a bottom-tier football team in 2008.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

5 to 6.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 18, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They got off to a hot start..

Then realized Jauron was the HC.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't blame the players

I think Jauron realized Jauron was the HC.

by bignerd on Jul 16, 2009 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the city of Buffalo raelized Jauron's first name is Dick.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 18, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, but you're using hindsight.

I’ll be glad to explain the Niners’ 2009 season after it’s over. Do you understand the difference?

Prior to last season a lot of people said the second half would be harder than the first half. They did not predict that Nolan would be fired. Heck at this time last year they did not predict that Smith would be injured and that O’Sullivan would be named starter and then yanked. So what happened on the field was not predicated on what people predicted last summer.

And the Jets would have had a better record except that the Niners beat them. I would say that that makes them a better team than they were except for the reality of what happened.

But thanks for stats of Raye’s offenses. After all, how many of the current Niners’ roster played for Raye’s offenses before? Anyone? That’s a statistic. How many of the teams Raye coached were great teams or mediocre teams or bad teams? And what are the statistics of a coach’s performance in one town versus another. I recall Belichik sucked at his last head coaching job before he got to New England. Give us the statistics to explain the difference with the Pats. Pete Carroll. Sometimes different locations, different circumstances, different players, different staffs mean different results.

I have no idea what will happen this fall. Neither do you, even if you think you do.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i totally agree with this:

 there’s no real point in discussing the stars of the team (Gore, Willis, and Clements among others) because “they don’t matter in this sort of situation. They could be the best players in the league at their respective positions and it wouldn’t be enough to overcome the mediocrity that permeates the majority of the roster.”

"There is no pressure. Pressure only exists when you're not prepared."
-The Samurai

by redrum21225 on Jul 15, 2009 7:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

And

no point in watching the season, because you know that the team is mediocre.

Great, don’t waste your time watching the Niners if that’s how you feel. But why do you waste our time?

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My bottom line

Statistical analysis is good. I love Danny’s stuff because it makes me rethink certain givens. A lot of times I agree with him, and if I don’t I see if I can see flaws with the analysis.

The big problem is that football is not easy to predict. I could have predicted that the Lions would suck, but I couldn’t predict the Cards would be in the Super Bowl. Coaches and strategy do have a lot to do with results, with how a player performs, with strategy, with effort. I remember a receiver who sucked for the Raiders a few years ago who seems to have turned things around with the Pats. Players in different situations bring different results. In basketball one great player can turn a team around. In football, with 22 starters, 2 kickers and gobs of situational players, a football team is a more intricate machine. And how all those parts work together is just more difficult to predict. There have been offensive lines that get better with the same starters (and would have been immune to a predicition based on past performance). There are other offensive lines that have gotten worse with the same starters. Line play is integral to the game and is pretty hard to calculate except by what other players do. There are injuries. You can’t predict that Tom Brady would get a knee injury. Maybe Warner gets injured. He’s older. But I can’t predict it.

Every offensive stat last year from Gore’s production to team passing stats should be questionable. Martz’s offensive schemes no longer work in the NFL unless you are blessed with the absolute best offensive talent, and probably not even then.

My umbrage isn’t so much with Football Outsiders, or even that some people believe the Niners will suck. Make your predictions, give your reasons. I have a problem with people spending so much time and spilling so much bile in trying to convince everyone at a Niner fan site that there’s no hope for the Niners. No matter the statistics that drummer et al may use, it’s a stupid goal and ultimately annoys us.

by Bob On The Coast on Jul 15, 2009 2:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Again...

Start your own Fanpost, and put up, or shut up.

That’s all I have to say here.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

no

If you two are going to go at it, please keep it to emails.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't know fooch

setting up a fanpost for a mega steel caged death match would be kinda neat.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

death match

Have a single FanPost always available for people to step in and go at it? Let it just accumulate cyber-wars?

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

maybe not let it accumulate to cyber warring, but if someone wants to call a guy out, they can dual in the cage match arena.

obviously it would be very hard to keep something like this useful more so than useless, but it may cut down on the banter that goes on in threads and dominates conversations.

that hard part would be finishing the battle, or determining a “winner”. that would lead to the extra trauma of having to referee the thread.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

penalty box

They can duke it out and then be placed in a penalty box or something.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's hockey

You are the head ball coach . . . send them to the showers followed by a lively post game speech about “don’t need them, don’t want them, can’t win with them” is more appropriate.

by bignerd on Jul 16, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or..

Arbitrarily all them “Cancers”.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 16, 2009 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

*call

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 16, 2009 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

By “a” I mean “I”. Well at least my literacy still stinks.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 16, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

very true

Some of these conversations make you look downright respectable!

by Fooch on Jul 16, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry Fooch..

But this poster is dropping my name and totally misrepresenting my posts here. Once, ok, and I put it out there that he could start a thread outside of this one, Once more, then he should realize that he is calling a poster out. That’s why I said to put one up as fanpost earlier.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the mood is right, for a…. bat fight.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

gotcha

Things have just been getting a little too emotional lately and people need to settle down as a whole. We’re all 49ers fans (well except Fearless Frog), and it’s not productive.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

gotcha

Things have just been getting a little too emotional lately and people need to settle down as a whole. We’re all 49ers fans (well except Fearless Frog), and it’s not productive.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

annoys "us"

who gives a shit if you’re annoyed? EFF YOU. 9er fans come in all sizes, colors, and most importantly, OPINIONS. if you have lower standards or are a blind optimist, don’t wine n complain because many of us aren’t.

"There is no pressure. Pressure only exists when you're not prepared."
-The Samurai

by redrum21225 on Jul 18, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Why do we play the game!!

There is some logic in this but if we could decided the super bowl winners with stats why do we have the game i wonder what arizona chance of going to the super bowl last year was so we still play games and injuries can happen and knock teams out where will arizona be if warner goes down a 5-8 win team at there best so i dont really care what this stupid crap says on any given sunday remeber that

cppeter

by foreveryoung66 on Jul 16, 2009 9:31 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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