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Intangibles

FOOCH'S NOTE: Drummer, I concur wholeheartedly.

Okay, I know I'm asking for trouble here, but I think it's time we had an organized discussion about this. Opinions on intangibles range from the religious to the athiestic. The full spectrum of intangibles is at once ridiculously broad and surprisingly limited. Particularly in football, it seems as though there is no right answer. It's the eternal question of "Does Peyton Manning have fewer Super Bowl rings than Tom Brady because he's a choker or because his team had so many defensive problems for so long?"

So let's do this thing. I'll throw down a brief template, including a short picture of my feelings, and then I'll pretty much just shut up and let the discussion fly.

Star-divide

First thing's first: Stipulations.

1) This is NOT a discussion of STATS GEEKS versus REAL FANS, and anybody who makes a comment that takes the discussion in this direction leaves themselves open to good clean ridicule. Why? The short answer is because that's stupid. The long answer is longer, but basically boils down to the same thing. Don't be stupid.

2) That's actually pretty much it. Nobody sits in their mother's basement crunching stats all day based on box scores of games they never watched just to come on this board and talk about the equation that they invented which adjusts DVAR to account for defensive scheme. Just like nobody sits around all day watching reruns of the NFL's greatest games without being able to tell you why yards per attempt is an important stat for a quarterback. Well, maybe Mark Schlereth. But he's a mindless grit robot, and he doesn't count. I repeat: any comment which suggests that anybody belongs to either of these nonexistent groups (Mark Schlereth excluded) is open to ridicule. Don't be that guy.

Second thing's first... or... second, anyway: The nitty gritty.

Here are a few commonly referenced intangibles to open up discussion for. I'm not going to pretend to be objective here. If everything I write is as reasonable and middle ground as I can make it, nobody is going to be mad enough to call me stupid and go on to explain why I'm stupid. And without that, everybody would just think that I'm smart. And that's no fun.

CLUTCHINESS: Baseball people might tell you that there is no such thing as the clutch intangible, disregarding Bengie Molina. Then again, baseball people might tell you that A-Rod is to clutch as Rick Moranis is to being tall, and that David Ortiz eats clutch for breakfast so that he can poo it out with two down in the bottom of the ninth with the winning run on second. Opinions vary. I might tell you that A-Rod interviews are to being funny like Rick Moranis is to being funny. But that's beside the point. I joke here because we all know what clutch is. You either choke or come through in crunch time. You're either Michael Jordan or Jim Kelly. In fact, it's fairly well defined, which makes me scratch my head as to why it's an intangible at all. But it is, I think.

Me? I believe in it. I don't worship it by any means. If you put a gun to my head and asked me who I'd want to bat for me for one at bat in the bottom of the ninth with the game on the line, I'd say Albert Pujols. But then if you told me you'd shoot me in the head if I didn't pick somebody else, I'd say Alex Rodriguez. Why? Because he's the next best player in the game, and for one at bat I'll take my chances on the second best player in the game choking. But yeah, I do believe it exists. But anybody can choke at any given time, and I think it gets too much credit. Even a great quarterback misses his target 40% of the time. What's the difference between choking and losing out to the proverbial coin flip? I sure as hell don't know, but that coin flip gets in the way too much for me to look at any given play or any given game and give clutchiness more than a passing credit.

HEART: Heart means different things to EVERYBODY. Go around separately to 12 different people and ask them what heart is and you'll get 12 different answers. Guy one will tell you that heart has to do with wanting something so bad it gives you diarrhea. Guy two will tell you that heart has to do with being that guy in the locker room who pumps everybody up. Two completely different things. But then if you tell guy one what guy two said, he won't flinch before saying, "yeah, that's what I said." And he'll believe it. Now THAT'S what I call an intangible! Completely undefined and yet ultimately universal. It means nothing and everything at once. It's a beautiful thing.

It also exists.

It's also deeply overrated.

Not because it doesn't account for a difference in performance, but because at the NFL level there are so many guys playing with so much heart that with 100 random guys being graded on a scale of 1 - 10 for heartitude, 95 of them will score in the top five percentile, with a Randy Moss outlying the 1 - 2 range, and four other guys sitting somewhere in the middle. Virtually every player has an unspeakable amount of heart, whatever it is. The result is a big fat even-out-effect. It becomes vaguely negligible. It does NOT become completely negligible. Anybody can want it more on any given play, and that can be the difference in the game. But it rarely is. I mean, if you really think about it. There are other, more wildly varying factors at play.

And I'll round out a clean three with....

GRIT: Grit is that stuff between Chad Pennington's rotator cuff and the rest of his shoulder that makes him lead the Dolphins to a winning season. Grit is the stuff that makes Shaun Hill a better quarterback than Alex Smith. Grit is the stuff that lets a guy overcome the fact that he's not Randy Moss to put him in a position to almost, almost, ALMOST not give up that touchdown to the taller, faster, more talented Randy Moss. Grit is equal parts heart, dirt, smallness, adversity, David Eckstein, and gin, shaken over ice and injected directly into an ovum to create some new-age Doug Flutie that will take over some professional sports league roughly 34 years from now.

Grit is stupid. Don't talk to me about it.

Or better yet. if you think I'm wrong, go ahead and talk to me about it.

IN CONCLUSION:

This is the tip of the iceberg. I haven't even talked about the relative value of intangibles to things like stats or strength of schedule or scheme or supporting cast or etc. I've tried to create a jumping off point where this can start and, like a tiny snowball becoming a big snowball or something, grow into a fruitful and enlightening discussion on the value, merits, accessibility, and overall graspabableness of intangibles.

My ultimate opinion is many layered, but I can boil it down to a reductive and polarizing paragraph for the sake of giving groug a chance to call me buttface: intangibles are very real. They exist and they affect every single game of every single sport that has ever been and ever will be played. However, they are also a crutch. A lot of the time people just don't want to think very hard about something, and when a question begs them to, they defer to intangibles as an escape route. Is A-Rod a victim of bad luck and small sample size? No. he SUCKS! And he's not CLUTCH! You know what, both might have some truth, but I will always, always side with the person saying the former because it's a more critically considered point of view. I rarely ever side with intangibles in discussion because 90% of the time, they are being cited as a way to avoid having to cite something just as real, but more complex and often much more relevant.

But they do exist. Ryan Leaf? The guy had ZERO intangibles, and it ruined his life. See, I just deferred to heart and grit to very rationally explain a player's failure. It's almost never that easy, though. At least, not in my opinion.

Have at it.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.

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What ?...

Just kidding.

Pretty weighty subject, and everyone who has a job or role in anything they do has some sort of intangible they can bring to the table. It isn’t just relegated to Sport. Intangibles come into play under circumstance. Innovation and Leadership require people that have those qualities. The thing is, even if they showed those qualities in one situation doesn’t necessarily mean they can do it in every situation. Plus, intangibles are better nurtured combined with experience. Everybody has an innate sense of something. Experience and guidance makes the most out of natural talent. In more intimate situations, it’s easier to bring together people with varied talents. In larger situations, it isn’t that easy.

I think the idea of “intangibles” is being a bit overplayed. It may be something that we can use to offset certain data presented, yet is isn’t subjective either. It is something to be explored, and there is so much to discuss on what that actually means to oneself personally that goes beyond sports in general. Just what are my “intangibles” and what brings those qualities out?

Good topic Howie. That’s what makes this Blog worthwhile. This is why I come here.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 2:27 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

One more thing..

This is not a good topic, but a great topic. Fooch should put this one on the Front Page.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good call

Moved it to the front…which is perfect b/c it’s a great story, AND it allows me to push back the Know Thy Enemy Post (to probably tomorrow morning). More posts is a good thing in the offseason!

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question

Is being able to secretly film other teams workouts and signals an ‘intangible’?

by danknerd49 on Jul 15, 2009 8:24 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

answer

if you ain’t cheatin you ain’t tryin

by jfainsf49 on Jul 15, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What are intangebles?

The problem is that the once you define them they are no longer intangible, like a QB leading his team to a game winning touchdown.

A related problem is that intangibles will always be part of a retrospective analysis, but unlike defined variables they are not used as predictors(because the are indefinable).
It is true that some players win more often under pressure than others, but this ability can come from anywhere. Develop in innumerable ways, and express at any moment.

It may be Chemistry (team and, or personal) or it may be some crazy metaphysical force.

Whatever it is that gets someone the “intangible” label is for sure intangible.

by goatfather on Jul 15, 2009 9:38 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

crazy metaphysical forces

now we are speaking the same language:

Intangibles manifest:

…just glad he is on our side.

by jfainsf49 on Jul 15, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently you don't know what intangibles are

intangible (adj) – nonmaterial, hard to describe (define)
intangible (noun) – something unquantifiable

Intangibles can be defined however they can’t be quantified or measured. You could define an intangible for a QB has his leadership qualities or presence in the huddle or even “clutchness” if you want to go that route but you can’t measure the effect that any of those has on his team.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 16, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, well

Patrick Willis has the intangibles, that’s all I’m saying, for intstance seemingly being at the right place at the right time, most of the time. Plus, I got a big man crush going on with Willis right now so I’d appreciate it if you eased up off my back.

by jfainsf49 on Jul 17, 2009 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 17, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couple of comments ...

Remember that, when looking at clutchness, that performance in “clutch” situations should be distributed randomly in the absence of “clutch ability.”

eg, it’s not like everybody is batting .275 in clutch situations except for the clutch guys, who bat .350, and the chokers, who bat .200. If everybody had the same ability, some of them would do a little better in pressure situations than others, just by random variation. It doesn’t mean they’re actually better.

Second, anybody who’s played sports has experienced “choking” – it’s a real thing that has been psychologically demonstrated. Your process actually change. So there may be “regular guys” and “chokers” but no “clutch” guys.

Third, as fans, we tend to remember great shots but not misses. Everybody remember’s Jordan’s shot over Ehlo … but that series went 7 games, and Jordan missed game-winners in several games that post-season. But what shot do we remember?

That being said, the biggest issue I have with intangibles is this:

When somebody wins, he is given credit for having great intangibles, and when he loses, he’s accused of having bad ones. I don’t believe that Peyton Manning was a better player the year they won the super bowl than he had been in previous years, for example (the key play of the championship game against NE involved a Patriot receiver running the wrong route!). Yet all of a sudden he’s given credit for being a “winner.”

Brett Farve won early in his career, so he’s given all sorts of credit for being a winner with great intangibles even as he throws pass after pass up for grabs – even to the point of throwing a playoff-game-losing interception in his last year with the Pack. It was a very typical play for late-career Farve, and yet we only hear about his great intangibles.

If intangibles are real, they we should be able to see them even on guys on losing teams, and yet that’s so rarely talked about.

by Ronaldinho on Jul 15, 2009 10:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think

at the end of the day, what makes sports so entertaining for us, and allows us to escape for a few hours, is that there is certainly no defined way to determine the outcome of the game before its played.

this was an excellent post, even counting the jabs at Rick Moranis. “Honey, I shrunk the intangibles”

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 10:22 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Ha. I actually thought I was being positive toward Moranis.

Fact: Rick Moranis is short.
Fact: A-Rod interviews are hilarious.

Therefore: Rick Moranis is short and hilarious.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Desire and Intensity...

I hate to say it but one of the best examples of both was Brian Dawkins’ performance in the Philly/Dallas game last year. It was a must win for both teams and BDawk played harder and faster than everyone else on the field because he WANTED it more. I loved watching it for two reasons: 1. I love watching the Cowgirls crumble, 2. He got the entire team and crowd pumped up to the point where you knew the Eagles were going to win that game.

The difference between an NFL player and an elite NFL player boils down to on field production on every play…but in the most dire of situations, a star can be made. I believe that the desire and intensity shown by a RB fighting for the goal line, a QB fighting off a sack to complete a first down pass (Eli in the Superbowl), or a CB wrestling a jumpball away from a taller receiver are the types of intangilbles that make a player truely elite.

Oh and my man Steve Young’s favorite word…moxy.

by McBain10 on Jul 15, 2009 10:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks McBain10

you pretty much captured most of what I would say.. Disire / heart/ drive/ etc can be considered pretty much the same which fuels intensity.. These can not be measured but do have tangible results on the field. In addion I would add that the lack of these things by a player or a team will have the oppostite but equally tangible result.. I sense these developing in the Niners this year to grater degree than perhaps in the last 8-10 years. Raw tallent will only get you so far in this league and when raw uninspiered tallent comes agains a less talented play who is inspired in some way … well there in lies the debate..

I would also add that on game day, fan involvement and intensity also plays a roll.. especially in key situations (4th and goal for the win, etc..) and in play offs.

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 15, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would assume

he’s referring to crowd noise.

but again, I only assume. I’m sure he doesn’t mean a 12th man streaking onto the field and making the game saving tackle. But if he does, that’s quite the immeasurable intangible.

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In general crowd noise. and energy

Why is it that on defense every home team has a player or two who is insiting the crowd with the hands up motion…

also I eluded to fan and other “interferance” that happens from time to time.. Like the famos snow plow incident and of course the famous "snow ball " incident that happend to the niners in Denver a few years back..

Anyway just wanted to highlight Fan influence is a factor.. albeit to a much smaller degree than some other intangibles…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 15, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think TO

Would fall under all three of those categories after his super bowl performance.

when will the Kenny Thomas Reign of Terror end?!!??

by diehardkingsfan5 on Jul 15, 2009 11:13 AM PDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Cohesiveness

Another important factor in team sports.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 12:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Heart?

I think the Lions last year showed that there is a need to have some sort of heart! So I don’t think heart is all that equal across the board. Heart, desire, or hunger for the win (whatever you want to call it) is not in everyone, I think some truly have it and others don’t. And sometimes, I think those who haven’t tasted success, won’t because they don’t know what they are missing and so never have that hunger to achieve it again!

by Ten-Man on Jul 15, 2009 12:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Resiliency

Ability to respond with shaken confidence

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 12:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

first off all, rec'd

second of all:

occasionally, the mentally tough player/team loses because (a) he/they failed mentally that day, (b) they came up against a player/team that was mentally tougher that day, or, the most likely, © they came up against a player/team so physically superior that it rendered their mental edge useless.

I don’t think that can be put in better words. Emphasis on part ©.

I will say this regarding Shaq: Being a Spurs fan, I always remember late in the games that mattered most (the playoffs), Shaq would hit his late game free throws an unseemingly amount of times. What attributed to this? Shaq just getting up to the line and shooting the ball (no thinking, just doing), or Shaq just being a damned bastard? Is there any way you can tell me that, based on what you’ve studied so far?

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Christie Kerr, last weekend, U.S. Women's Open...

Johnny Miller said on Saturday that she had the mental toughness to win it on Sunday. Kerr has been working on her mental game for the past few seasons. All she really had to do was make par or score -1 the next day to win.

She played her worst round Sunday, and tied for second.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Danny. I knew that you had a large investment in this, and that was a great comment.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Under pressure

I can describe a series of anecdotal psychological facts. It makes me think of when the Suns(I think) started “brain typing” their guys for “chemistry” on the court, that was the experiment, the result; failure.

I understand what you are saying about the neurophysiological evidence. However, Piaget learned more about human development through careful observation and intuition. Static experimental evidence is almost always anecdotal. If all of that information could really yield definitive answers then we would see EEG hats on all of the players in some kind of “mental” combine. Imagine that!

The whole is more than the sum of its parts.

by goatfather on Jul 16, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also

Are you in the Psychology Club at your institution?

by goatfather on Jul 16, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Expectation

What is the barometer of success? Is VD measured the same as Bear Pascoe? Is a player measuring himself to be the best or to just make the team. Will a team be satisfied with a few wins, playoffs or is it SB or bust? All these intangible, personal questions will go onto effect confidence.

by bignerd on Jul 15, 2009 12:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

What are Intangibles you ask?

They are why the teams play the game and we watch. If everything was able to be coded out in a basement and laid on the table and said to be correct 100% of the time then there woudl be no reason to watch the game.

I watch the game to see a no name WR catch the game winning pass that he had dropped every other time in his career. I watch to see the RB who never fumbled before in his life drop the ball on the 1yd line and lose the game.

I watch to see the unexpected…to experience the highs (and lows) that a true game of intangibles brings to me.

by 9erEast on Jul 15, 2009 12:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If everything was able to be coded out in a basement and laid on the table and said to be correct 100% of the time then there would be no reason to watch the game.
Nobody sits in their mother’s basement crunching stats all day based on box scores of games they never watched just to come on this board and talk about the equation that they invented which adjusts DVAR to account for defensive scheme.

For a second there, 9erEast, I thought I was going to get a real nice chance to ridicule somebody. But to no avail! I like your comment. The Throw was probably the single greatest moment of my sports-viewing life. I think that perfectly embodies the kind of moment you’re talking about. Though I love getting into the numbers and the schemes and the depth charts and all that stuff, I wouldn’t watch if I knew there was no chance I’d ever see anything that would melt my brain.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I think intangibles aren't entirely useless,

they are easily trumped by talent. Let’s say the Lions are the most motivated team with a lot of desire and enthusiasm, and they face a Colts team without any motivation or extra effort. Chances are still in favor of the Colts absolutely steamrolling the Lions because they are a clearly superior team with more talent on the roster.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 1:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

intangibles

I’d imagine if anybody is going to claim intangibles have some effect, it would be in games between opponents that are a little more closely matched. The Lions could certainly beat the Colts, but that would be more of a statistical outlier if you matched them up 100 times or whatever.

However, if you have a team that is 10th best in the league facing off against a team that’s 15th best in the league, maybe those intangibles lead to a win. And I’m not claiming 10th vs. 15th is the magic combination of opponents, but rather just relatively closely matched. You look at the Cardinals vs. the Steelers. Pittsburgh was a better team, but not so much better that maybe the intangibles (among other things) didn’t help Arizona keep it close….Anyways, just a thought.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem with that argument ...

… is that, well, the Steelers were a slightly better team, and the game was close. In other words, there’s no need for “intangibles” to enter the equation to explain the result.

by Ronaldinho on Jul 15, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

steelers-cardinals

Unless you think the Steelers were more than just slightly better and should have run roughshod over the Cardinals…only the Cardinals were on a run thanks to some sort of intangible and that was why they hung close. Not necessarily my personal belief, but certainly something to consider.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steelers-Cards or Intangiables vs Paper matchups

The Steelers DEFENSE was more than slightly better than the opposing Cards defense, but the Cards offense was more than slightly better than the steelers offense. So there you have the unmeasureable stat of defense vs offense on paper. That’s why on any given sunday even the 0-16 Lions can be a threat to the Colts and Vikings. SO saying the niners can win the division and possibly make it to the superbowl is not an optimistic statement but a true one at this point in the offseason. (I know what prompted this discussion and thanx for posting it) Just had to get that out there!!

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Confirmend

Thats all I have been saying,, Nothing wrong with a statiistical review of match ups but when the game is played “on any given Sunday..” stuff can and often does happen.

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 15, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A very receint clasic example

is the Giants from two years ago.. You recall the comback Eli and the gang had to get into the playoffs in the god awful cold in NY. On paper and on the score board they were beat. but something happend the overcame all of that adversity and went on to win the SB.

Any way …good post…

So. How would you classify this Labor issue.. Tangible or Intangilbe…Just kidding…

by WC-Ninerhead on Jul 15, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is ...

… there were “tangible” things that the Giants did during that super bowl which they hadn’t been doing early season, or even during that final game against the Pats.

There were “tangible” things that the Cards did in the playoffs, which they hadn’t done during the regular season.

by Ronaldinho on Jul 15, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't agree, the Lions initially hung in with the colts

The lions had absolutely no intangiables last season and came close to beating the colts!!

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't agree, the Lions initially hung in with the colts

The lions had absolutely no intangiables last season and came close to beating the colts!!

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

95 out of 100 guys

can’t score in the top 5 percentile of anything. its mathematically impossible. i dont think you know what percentile means.

I take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.

by these3words on Jul 15, 2009 5:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

who is this directed at?

Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WAT?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah, I know what it.

The 95th percentile of a scale of 1-10 is anything 9.5 and above. I didn’t say it was the 95th percentile of players. The whole statement was always based on the scale.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Granted, it was a clumsy way to say it. But still, it means what it’s clearly meant to mean, awkward phrasing aside.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tony Romo

Don’t know if he has been brought up yet.
?

Anybody care to discuss his (lack of) “intangibles”?

I really don’t understand the post so I’d rather not comment.

by chikmagnet_565 on Jul 15, 2009 8:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I can't put it all into words...

But I remember a game where the center botched the snap (no, not for a FG) , and the ball went past Romo for almost 20 yards. Romo ran back to keep possession of it, picked it up, scrambled a bit, and chucked one for a huge play. That was pretty epic, and he makes quite a few plays out of nothing.

He has it. Now that he kicked Jessica to the curb (he really has it if he can bag her and then dump her), he can focus on the game more.

I should hate him, but I hate Justin Timberlake more (for he bagging Biel).

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Romo

I’ve heard nothing but good things about Romo. He bought some homeless guy a movie ticket and told him to sit with him and his buddy. After that game last season where he got hit on the chin he helped somebody with a flat tire. I’m sure plenty of athletes do good things like this, but it still makes it easy to root for him (even if he is a Cowboy).

As for the intangibles, didn’t he also mess up on the play after the botched snap in the playoffs a while back? Everybody has their good and bad moments.

by Fooch on Jul 15, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was kind of hoping

Someone would try to correlate intangibles with his bad December/post-season record.

by chikmagnet_565 on Jul 15, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steve Young lost quite a bit..

of post-season games too. He lost more NFC Championships than he has won. Do you put that all on him?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well he could never muster much against the Packers

by bignerd on Jul 16, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

His lack of "intangibles"...

Must be the reason why.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 16, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, no, no

Reggie White’s God was more powerful than his.

by bignerd on Jul 16, 2009 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

White

According to Reggie White, God told him to go to Green Bay. Of course, Gold also told Kurt Warner to go back to Arizona. So does that just mean we can confirm God is NOT a 49ers fan?

by Fooch on Jul 16, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe it

God has publicly scorned the 49ers twice in the free agent market. He’s definitely not a rabid 49er fan.

I’m not sure what is going on with God involving SB victories. Maybe he hates the AFC just a little bit more than us. Maybe he’s a chaffed a few teams have critiqued his own designs with their uniforms. How many dark orange and black bengals has he created? Blue and orange broncos? When has yellow lighting struck powder blue skies?

by bignerd on Jul 16, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

SB victories

The 49ers were too good in those Super Bowl years for even God to overcome them (try and dodge the lightning bolts flying down right now).

by Fooch on Jul 16, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tell you what...

I’ll trade Romo straight up for VD and a couple others right now.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I really like how we’re the forty-whiners when we’re raring to go with Shaun Hill behind the helm, and Cowboys fans catch no flack for whining non-stop about having one of the best quarterbacks in the game signed to (I believe) a cap-friendly contract.

But I guess cowboywhiners isn’t really that catchy.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know, I was in Dallas last year...

Hanging out at a bar with a few Cowboy fans (really cool people BTW), and they didn’t like Romo much. I’m like, WTF? I told them I thought he could be one of the best out there right now. They didn’t buy it.

It is Texas, so I let it be.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't ( site decorum) Romo

He’s been a Cowboy for too long!!!!!!

The only Cowboy i’d take is Ware

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn’t ( site decorum) Romo

really? nice to know

and in his 4th season, VD broke through the wall, Niners fan rejoiced and all was well in the kingdom. Singletary 3:42

by 49erLou on Jul 16, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm afraid you would really threaten Gavin Newsom

You think his campaign against the 49ers is vicious now.

by bignerd on Jul 16, 2009 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ummm..

Even the San Jose Democrat challenges the Stadium deal, and did it way before the latest surge from the Chronicle. Bear in mind, the Chronicle during the Dynasty era was what the National Media drew upon, with the like of Caen and such.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 16, 2009 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Statistically, the 49ers offensive line is one of the worst in the league regardless of weather conditions.

Cold weather stats are pretty useless unless you’re QB of the Packers.

I dislike Romo and think he’s overrated to sin, but even I think both playoff losses weren’t his fault as a QB.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He sucks in December

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know how to account for it exactly, but he’s been sacked at roughly three times the rate in December that he’s been sacked in any other month. Almost three times a game, even. That’ll hurt anybody’s stats. I don’t know enough about the Cowboys’ past few seasons to say what factors play into that. It could have something to do with him. It could be something else altogether.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So is any team Martz coaches

And yeah I’d trade our O-line for the Cowboys

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Correction
Statistically, the 49ers offensive line is was one of the worst in the league regardless of weather conditions.

.

Just being a pest. I like the pieces we have, but I’m not going to pretend like they’ve magically been cured of the ALL of ails of the past.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

nice correction

i think between Singletary and Raye they will figure out the Hill only needs 3 to 4 seconds to get rid of the ball, seven step drops might very well be a thing of the past, generally speaking of course.

by jfainsf49 on Jul 15, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How are th estats useless unless youre in GB

What about Chicago, New England, Buffalo, Cleveland, New York, and Pittsburgh.

It’s playoff football and usually must win games. why is it that Hill has so many critics and he’s not making bonehead decisions in the cold, it’s ok because romo had a good statistical 10 weeks, thats Bull (site decorum)

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hill has so many critics

because he’s not very physically talented, has been a career back-up, and is being pegged as a starter because of an extremely misleading record as a starter.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, 10 games isn’t very many. Hill deserves to be looked at critically. He also deserves to be looked at optimistically. But there’s definitely every reason to understand that hes nowhere near a total lock as even a viable short-term solution.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm kinda scared...

that when defenses start preparing for hill and the tools he has, we’ll be extremely disappointed in him.

by Joshpreet on Jul 15, 2009 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pegging him as a starter because of his passing percentage and td to int ratio.

Yeah it’s ten games, but get out the flags for flacco and for Ryan after one season. Warren Moon was cast out by the NFL or should I say unwanted for no REAL reason, adn how did he do. Some QB’s get overlooked because they dont have jaw dropping numbers and don’t have a rocket downfield. IMO Hill is a leader and it appeared he had the respect of the players and he was someone to be confident in. He’s gotta start from somewhere he can’t be judged on 20 games until he plays 20 games. And while we’re talking about Romo he at least has been in the same system with the same coahing staff and an OL and weapons all arond him. Then he chokes with the game on the line when games matter most.

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think being critical isn’t the same as being judgemental, though. It’s right to be critical of Hill. It makes no sense to start making judgements on his future, though.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

His passing percentage is fairly good, yes.

However, I’m sure many of you can attest than Hill simply cannot make every type of throw, and mostly hits the high-percentage, low-reward type stuff. His TD to INT ratio was great for someone coming off the bench, but then again, Seneca Wallace had an unbelievably good one too, so it could be just due to small sample size and playing some very weak competition.

Sure, it’s very fair to question Flacco and Ryan, Flacco in particular. They both only had one season of marginal production yet are both crowned the next Marino. Moon was cast out simply because the NFL at the time did not believe black dudes could be viable QBs.

However, I constantly hear about Hill’s leadership qualities, and if they’re true, that’s a good start for an eventual starter. I just don’t think he’s much more than an average stopgap.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 16, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

QB

I said this at some point last year and I still believe it: I think Shaun Hill is a decent enough option to lead this team for about two more years and buy time for developing a long term option. Shaun Hill is not going to put up monster numbers, but I think he does enough of the little things to keep his team in the game. Not a game-changing QB by any stretch, but given some of the crap that’s played QB in the NFL, I don’t think he’s all that awful.

by Fooch on Jul 16, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not arguing (yet...), but

Out of curiosity, how many games is that?

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many cold weather games for Romo are we talking about?

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yahoo says 2 cold weather games. I’m not putting a lot of stock in that.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I Just remeber the numbers being posted last year in the later portion of the 08 season

And it was comparing his career of december games to the rest of the year by average. His record is horrible in december as well as his rating and his avg. oer game in december. Maybe it’s a useless stat, but when SF was successful last season it was due to a weak schedule, Romo makes that play why can’t it be because of bad defense? So I apologize it’s the month of december play for his career.

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mentioned something weird about his December stats up above. Like I said there, I have no idea how to account for it.

I’m not sure what about December itself would negatively impact his game. It doesn’t seem like temperature is all that much of a factor. If I were to speculate, I would say that fatigue comes to mind. Or possibly strength of schedule. Or injuries to offensive lineman or receivers or running backs (basically anything that frees the defense up to pressure him).

Whatever the reason could be, it’s still not a whole heck of a lot of games. I could see that stat changing dramatically over the next two years for a hundred reasons. That’s no reason to dismiss it, but without knowing more about the circumstances in Dallas the last few Decembers, I really can’t say why his numbers would be so aberrant without being extremely circumstantial about it.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 15, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I understand where you're coming from in saying that.

But I wouldn’t send out V Davis adn a few other players, or act as if Romo would be th emissing link in SF. He reminds me of the Pick Machine Brett Favre, he’s careless with the football IMO. I have more faith in Hill than I have in Romo. I don’t measure a QB by team wins like the NFL broadcasters do. With all the talent around Romo, he should have great numbers. I remember the blunders that either stopped the boys from advancing in the playoffs or to the playoffs. Tony Romo is not a top 5 QB.

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno...

You’re taking a player that hasn’t played a full season over a guy who has at least played in the post-season. Hill is more of a WhoTF than Romo is.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Jul 15, 2009 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No I'm saying Romo hasn't done enough to be proclaimed as a great QB.

Keep the stats help us win, don’t give the game away!

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I don’t measure a QB by team wins like the NFL broadcasters do. "

Then how could you POSSIBLY be enamored with Shaun Hill?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

With the way he plays the game.

And it’s not enamoured, just not as negative as others are about the guy.

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Makes sense.

He seems to inspire confidence in the fans so he can’t be all that bad.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 16, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think it’s because of Christmas.. has to be it

by Joshpreet on Jul 15, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if your playing in Dallas

you can already exclude the chance of cold weather playing a role in Romo’s perfromance on the field because it never gets cold in Texas, ever.

by jfainsf49 on Jul 15, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

y not

His record adn td to int ratio…..is that a fluke

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 15, 2009 9:53 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

howie is a buttface

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Jul 16, 2009 9:23 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

You sir are intangibly immature.

Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.

by methodrampage on Jul 17, 2009 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahem!
My ultimate opinion is many layered, but I can boil it down to a reductive and polarizing paragraph for the sake of giving groug a chance to call me buttface: intangibles are very real.

He was askin’ for it.

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Jul 17, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I thought you were for some reason referring to Howie Long,

in which case I would agree with you that he is indeed a buttface.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 17, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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