Fisking Football Outsiders: I. Mediocre Manny?
AUTHOR'S NOTE: Over the next week or so, I'll be fisking Football Outsiders' review/preview of the 49ers in their recently released Almanac. Being that I'm a devotee of theirs, you'd think I'm going to agree with everything they wrote. Stick with me through these articles, and you might just find yourself (un)pleasantly surprised.
On Tuesday, Fooch detailed his thoughts about the Niner chapter in Football Outsiders' (FO) Almanac 2009. He pretty much covered all the bases, so I'm not going to rehash what's already been said. Rather, I'm going to evaluate some of FO's arguments from a statistical point of view. Today, in Part 1 of this series, I'm going to address an assertion they made - in the context of McCloughan draft failures - about the potentially mediocre career potential of Manny Lawson. Here's the relevant passage in full (emphasis mine):
Manny Lawson, the 22nd overall pick, missed most of his second season with a torn ACL, but over three years he has just 5.5 sacks in 32 games. That's not what a team desperate for a pass rusher was hoping for. When the team went to a nickel package as their defensive base last year, Lawson went to the bench, a sign of his lack of development. Even if we pretend that those 32 games only came over two seasons, there's not a lot of hope for Lawson; of the last 32 linebackers to be drafted in the first round and produce fewer than six sacks in their first two years, only two - LaVar Arrington and Jamir Miller - have produced a ten-sack season afterwards.
After the jump, I'll use statistics to show you why FO's argument is like comparing apples and oranges...
Let's dissect the last sentence in that paragraph. The associations FO is drawing here involve (a) LBs drafted in the 1st round, (b) the number of total sacks such players have produced in his first two years, and (c) the maximum number of sacks in a season that such players have produced after their first two years.
When I read this, I immediately thought of a couple of questions the answers to which might be useful to know:
- How many LBs drafted in the first round have produced 6+ total sacks in their first 2 years?
- How many LBs drafted in the first round have produced a 10+ sack season after their first 2 years?
- How many of the LBs drafted in the first round whom produced 6+ total sacks in their first 2 years actually went on to have a 10+ sack season later in their career?
- Is there really something else going on here that quickly explains away LB sack performance that doesn't lead you to conclude Manny Lawson is a bust?
I'll address the last question first because its answer gets the ball rolling for the other 3. Those of you who've been around for a while should have come across my free agency previews this past spring. One of them specifically addressed the question, "Where do sacks come from?" Essentially, what I found - based on 2008 stats - was that the overwhelming majority of sacks are dependent on a pass rusher's position and the type of defense in which he plays. Specifically, on a team that plays a 3-4 defense, the OLBs get the lion's share of sacks. In contrast, on a team that plays a 4-3 defense, the DEs are the sack masters.
This little tidbit of information comes in handy when trying to understand (a) why Manny Lawson hasn't had 6+ in his first 2 years, and (b) why Manny Lawson may or may not have a 10+ sack season in the future. Namely, Lawson has been a 4-3 OLB his entire career save the latter part of last season when Singletary and Manusky moved to a base 3-4.
Now, with this in mind, let's look at the career sack performance of every LB drafted in the 1st round from 1995-2005. Here's the table:
|
Player |
Position |
Yrs |
Yrs Inj |
G |
Sack |
Sack/G |
Sack Max |
|
Powell |
-- |
3 |
2 |
14 |
0.0 |
0.000 |
0.0 |
|
Farrior |
3-4 ILB |
12 |
0 |
184 |
24.5 |
0.133 |
6.5 |
|
Merriman |
3-4 OLB |
4 |
1 |
43 |
39.5 |
0.919 |
17.0 |
|
Ware |
3-4 OLB |
4 |
0 |
64 |
53.5 |
0.836 |
20.0 |
|
Ellis |
4-3 DE |
11 |
0 |
162 |
77.0 |
0.475 |
12.5 |
|
Wilson, R. |
4-3 DE/3-4 OLB |
6 |
0 |
93 |
24.0 |
0.258 |
9.0 |
|
Urlacher |
4-3 ILB |
9 |
0 |
137 |
37.5 |
0.274 |
8.0 |
|
Lewis |
4-3 ILB |
13 |
2 |
178 |
33.5 |
0.188 |
5.0 |
|
Wilson, A. |
4-3 ILB |
8 |
0 |
125 |
21.5 |
0.172 |
5.0 |
|
Barnett |
4-3 ILB |
6 |
0 |
87 |
11.5 |
0.132 |
3.5 |
|
Morgan |
4-3 ILB |
7 |
3 |
59 |
7.0 |
0.119 |
3.0 |
|
Harris |
4-3 ILB |
7 |
0 |
100 |
8.5 |
0.085 |
2.5 |
|
Morris |
4-3 ILB |
8 |
2 |
99 |
7.0 |
0.071 |
3.0 |
|
Vilma |
4-3 ILB |
5 |
1 |
69 |
3.5 |
0.051 |
2.0 |
|
Boulware |
4-3 OLB |
9 |
1 |
126 |
69.5 |
0.552 |
15.0 |
|
Peterson, J. |
4-3 OLB |
9 |
1 |
127 |
46.0 |
0.362 |
10.0 |
|
Pollack |
4-3 OLB |
3 |
2 |
16 |
4.5 |
0.281 |
4.5 |
|
Arrington |
4-3 OLB |
7 |
2 |
84 |
23.5 |
0.280 |
11.0 |
|
Hardy |
4-3 OLB |
9 |
0 |
134 |
36.0 |
0.269 |
10.5 |
|
Fields |
4-3 OLB |
10 |
1 |
136 |
34.5 |
0.254 |
8.0 |
|
Johnson, D. |
4-3 OLB |
4 |
0 |
59 |
12.0 |
0.203 |
4.5 |
|
Davis, T. |
4-3 OLB |
4 |
0 |
62 |
9.5 |
0.153 |
3.5 |
|
Spikes |
4-3 OLB |
11 |
1 |
156 |
23.5 |
0.151 |
6.0 |
|
Bulluck |
4-3 OLB |
9 |
0 |
143 |
18.0 |
0.126 |
5.0 |
|
Simmons, A. |
4-3 OLB |
7 |
2 |
87 |
10.0 |
0.115 |
4.0 |
|
Rudd |
4-3 OLB |
7 |
0 |
109 |
11.5 |
0.106 |
5.0 |
|
Mobley |
4-3 OLB |
8 |
2 |
105 |
10.5 |
0.100 |
4.0 |
|
Brown, Reg. |
4-3 OLB |
2 |
0 |
26 |
2.5 |
0.096 |
2.5 |
|
Williams, D.J. |
4-3 OLB |
5 |
0 |
75 |
6.5 |
0.087 |
2.5 |
|
Brooks |
4-3 OLB |
14 |
0 |
224 |
13.5 |
0.060 |
3.0 |
|
Thomas, R. |
4-3 OLB |
7 |
1 |
84 |
2.0 |
0.024 |
2.0 |
|
Simmons, B. |
4-3 OLB/4-3 ILB |
10 |
1 |
137 |
24.0 |
0.175 |
6.5 |
|
Brooking |
4-3 OLB/4-3 ILB |
11 |
1 |
161 |
17.0 |
0.106 |
3.5 |
|
Katzenmoyer |
4-3/3-4 ILB |
3 |
2 |
24 |
3.5 |
0.146 |
3.5 |
|
Total |
252 |
28 |
3489 |
726.5 |
0.208 |
For your convenience, I've organized the table by the primary position these LB draft picks played during their careers. If there's more than one position listed for a player, it means he played an equal number of years at each position.
Of the 34 LBs, only 3 have played the majority of their careers at what can be considered the pass-rushing positions, 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE. Low and behold, these 3 LBs - Merriman, Ware, and Ellis - just happen to have had 3 of the top 4 highest sack-per-game ratios of the entire bunch. The lone exception: Boulware, who played 4-3 OLB on (arguably) the greatest defense in NFL history. So the moral of the story here is that the only 1st-round LBs who might actually provide that "much-needed" pass rush that Lawson is supposed to have provided are those that play 3-4 OLB and draft picks named Peter Boulware.
For a comparison, let's look at what the average sack season for each of the various positions has been for these 1st-round LBs:
|
Position |
Yrs |
G |
Sack |
Sack/G |
Sack/Yr |
|
4-3 OLB |
117 |
1663 |
315.0 |
0.186 |
2.69 |
|
4-3 ILB |
63 |
886 |
148.5 |
0.175 |
2.36 |
|
4-3 DE |
10 |
154 |
56.0 |
0.367 |
5.60 |
|
3-4 OLB |
19 |
270 |
151.0 |
0.545 |
7.95 |
|
3-4 ILB |
24 |
345 |
42.5 |
0.115 |
1.77 |
|
3-4 DE |
1 |
16 |
8.0 |
0.500 |
8.00 |
|
Total |
234 |
3334 |
721.0 |
0.214 |
3.08 |
Well, look at that! Seasons from 3-4 OLBs have produced over three times as many sacks as those from LBs in a 4-3. Similarly, seasons from 4-3 DEs have produced twice as many. Not to mention that, interestingly enough, if you take the average season for Lawson's position, 4-3 OLB, and double it to reflect 2 seasons' worth of sacks, you get a value (5.38) that is almost exactly Lawson's 2-year total of 5.5.
OK, so I've pretty much shown here that you can't compare the sack production of 1st-round LBs without taking into consideration the position at and defense on which they play. By failing to do just this, FO compared apples to oranges when citing Lawson's 2-year sack production as an indicator of his bust status.
With this in mind, let's answer my other 3 questions. To do so, we'll need a table that compares each LBs sack production in his first 2 years to that of his subsequent years. Here's such a table:
|
First 2 Years |
Rest of Career |
|||||||
|
Player |
Position |
Sack |
Sack Max |
Position |
Sack |
Sack Max |
||
|
Powell |
-- |
0.0 |
0.0 |
-- |
0.0 |
0.0 |
||
|
Simmons, B. |
3-4 ILB |
6.0 |
3.0 |
4-3 OLB/4-3 ILB |
18.0 |
6.5 |
||
|
Spikes |
3-4 ILB |
5.0 |
3.0 |
4-3 OLB |
18.5 |
6.0 |
||
|
Merriman |
3-4 OLB |
27.0 |
17.0 |
3-4 OLB |
12.5 |
12.5 |
||
|
Ware |
3-4 OLB |
19.5 |
11.5 |
3-4 OLB |
34.0 |
20.0 |
||
|
Wilson, R. |
3-4 OLB |
9.0 |
6.0 |
4-3 DE |
15.0 |
9.0 |
||
|
Farrior |
3-4 OLB |
1.5 |
1.5 |
3-4 ILB |
23.0 |
6.5 |
||
|
Ellis |
4-3 DE |
10.5 |
7.5 |
4-3 DE |
66.5 |
12.5 |
||
|
Urlacher |
4-3 ILB |
14.0 |
8.0 |
4-3 ILB |
23.5 |
6.0 |
||
|
Wilson, A. |
4-3 ILB |
6.0 |
5.0 |
4-3 ILB |
15.5 |
5.0 |
||
|
Barnett |
4-3 ILB |
5.0 |
3.0 |
4-3 ILB |
6.5 |
3.5 |
||
|
Vilma |
4-3 ILB |
2.5 |
2.0 |
3-4 ILB |
1.0 |
1.0 |
||
|
Harris |
4-3 ILB |
2.5 |
2.0 |
4-3 ILB |
6.0 |
2.5 |
||
|
Morris |
4-3 ILB |
1.0 |
1.0 |
4-3 ILB |
6.0 |
3.0 |
||
|
Bulluck |
4-3 ILB |
1.0 |
1.0 |
4-3 OLB |
17.0 |
5.0 |
||
|
Simmons, A. |
4-3 ILB |
0.0 |
0.0 |
4-3 OLB |
10.0 |
4.0 |
||
|
Boulware |
4-3 OLB |
20.0 |
11.5 |
4-3 OLB |
49.5 |
15.0 |
||
|
Pollack |
4-3 OLB |
4.5 |
4.5 |
-- |
0.0 |
0.0 |
||
|
Hardy |
4-3 OLB |
8.0 |
5.5 |
4-3 OLB |
28.0 |
10.5 |
||
|
Peterson, J. |
4-3 OLB |
7.0 |
4.0 |
4-3 OLB |
39.0 |
10.0 |
||
|
Rudd |
4-3 OLB |
7.0 |
5.0 |
4-3 OLB |
4.5 |
3.0 |
||
|
Johnson, D. |
4-3 OLB |
6.5 |
4.5 |
4-3 OLB |
5.5 |
4.0 |
||
|
Mobley |
4-3 OLB |
5.5 |
4.0 |
4-3 OLB |
5.0 |
2.0 |
||
|
Arrington |
4-3 OLB |
4.5 |
4.0 |
4-3 OLB |
19.0 |
11.0 |
||
|
Davis, T. |
4-3 OLB |
3.0 |
1.5 |
4-3 OLB |
6.5 |
3.5 |
||
|
Brown, Reg. |
4-3 OLB |
2.5 |
2.5 |
-- |
0.0 |
0.0 |
||
|
Fields |
4-3 OLB |
3.0 |
2.0 |
4-3 OLB |
31.5 |
8.0 |
||
|
Brooking |
4-3 OLB |
2.0 |
2.0 |
4-3 ILB |
15.0 |
3.5 |
||
|
Williams, D.J. |
4-3 OLB |
2.0 |
2.0 |
4-3 OLB |
4.5 |
2.5 |
||
|
Brooks |
4-3 OLB |
1.0 |
1.0 |
4-3 OLB |
12.5 |
3.0 |
||
|
Morgan |
4-3 OLB/4-3 ILB |
2.0 |
1.0 |
4-3 ILB |
5.0 |
3.0 |
||
|
Thomas, R. |
4-3 OLB/4-3 ILB |
2.0 |
2.0 |
4-3 OLB |
0.0 |
0.0 |
||
|
Lewis |
4-3/3-4 ILB |
6.5 |
4.0 |
4-3 ILB |
27.0 |
5.0 |
||
|
Katzenmoyer |
4-3/3-4 ILB |
3.5 |
3.5 |
-- |
0.0 |
0.0 |
||
|
Total |
191.5 |
535.0 |
||||||
Now, let's answer Question 1: How many LBs drafted in the first round have produced 6+ total sacks in their first 2 years? As you can see from the left side of the table, only 13 of the 34 1st-round LBs since 1995 have produced 6+ sacks in their first 2 years. Here's what that means: Simply by being drafted in the 1st round, the odds were already 3-to-2 against Lawson having 6+ sacks in his first 2 years. The odds for Lawson got even longer when he was slotted in at 4-3 OLB, a position from which only 5 of 14 1st-round LBs reached the 6+ sack threshold during their first 2 years.
Here's Question 2 again: How many LBs drafted in the first round have produced a 10+ sack season after their first 2 years? Looking at the right side of the table this time, you see that only 7 of the 34 fit the bill. Here's what this means: Regardless of how many sacks he had in his first 2 years, the odds are 4-to-1 against Lawson having a 10+ sack season during the remainder of his career. Not to mention that 3 of the Super-7 had already recorded a season with double-digit sacks during their first 2 years.
Let's take this one step further by answering Question 3: How many of the LBs drafted in the 1st round whom produced 6+ total sacks in their first 2 years actually went on to have a 10+ sack season later in their career? As we've already learned, 13 of the 34 1st-round LBs had 6+ sacks in their first 2 years. Comparing the two sides of the table, we now learn that 9 of those 13 actually didn't have a 10+ sack season later in their careers. Here's what that means: Even if Lawson had the required 6+ sacks in his first 2 years, the odds would still be 2-to-1 against him parlaying that success into a 10+ sack season later in his career.
So I think I've made my point here. The whole idea that Lawson is somehow doomed to mediocrity by virtue of the fact that he's had only 5.5 sacks in his first 32 games totally ignores the fact that (a) most 1st-round LBs don't have 6+ sacks during their first 2 years, (b) most 1st-round LBs don't ever have a 10+ sack season, and (c) most 1st-round LBs who have 6+ sacks during their first 2 years don't go on to have a 10+ sack season later in their careers. And finally, all of this is complicated further by the fact that Lawson was miscast at 4-3 OLB his first 2 years, which, unlike 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE, is not a position where the proverbial sack artists are likely to play.
Just a couple of more apples-and-oranges-related things before I'm done with Part 1...
- If you look back at the first table, you'll see that only 28 of the 252 total seasons played by 1st-round LBs have been short-circuited due to injury. Not shown in the table is that only 5 of the 34 1st-round LBs lost one of their first 2 years due to injury.
- In the last table, I've displayed in bold the instances in which a player switched from one primary position to another after their first 2 years. As you can see, there have been no instances in which a 1st-round LB switched from primarily playing 4-3 OLB during his first 2 years to playing 3-4 OLB for the rest of his career.
So if we map this all out. Manny Lawson's specific situation heading into 2009 is represented by the following:
- He was drafted in the 1st round.
- He lost a season due to injury during his first 2 years.
- He had fewer than 6 sacks while playing 4-3 OLB during his first 2 years.
- He switched to 3-4 OLB for the last 5 games of 2008, and will remain there in 2009.
Simply put, no LB that was drafted in the 1st round from 1995 to 2005 has encountered the same set of circumstances as Lawson's. Therefore, it's totally invalid to compare him to the rest of this LB group. In fact, there appears to be no valid comparison whatsoever.
Does all this mean I think Manny Lawson is going to blossom into the sack artist we all hope him to be? No. If anything, by virtue of Lawson playing a more sack-friendly position, I'd anticipate his sack total increasing substantially this year, perhaps up into the high single-digit range.
What this article does mean, however, is that, although FO may ultimately be correct in their prediction for Lawson, the statistical comparison they cited to prove their point was akin to saying that Kentwan Balmer will never have a 100+ tackle season. It totally ignores the expectations of the position being played -- which really surprises me because one of the things I think is great about FO is that they go to unprecedented lengths (e.g., game charting, football consultants, scouts on the payroll, etc.) to incorporate the actual physical, strategic, and tactical aspects of football into their statistics.
Stay tuned for Part 2...
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Comments
For a lot of last year
Lawson was taken out on third downs, the down where you’re likely to see passes and when you’re most likely to see sacks or at least sack possibilities. That may be due to him still recovering from his knee, but that still means that he lost a lot of opportunities to sack.
I won’t pretend to guess how Lawson pans out this year, but you’ve pretty much shown that the basis for at least this “prediction” is weak.
by Bob In Beaverton on Jul 15, 2009 4:10 PM PDT reply actions
Lawson's ACL
We all know that when a player tears an ACL, it takes a long time to regain their pre-injury form. Even though he was back on the field in 2008, most reports say that he didn’t have the same “burst” that he had in 2006. That being said, Manny is fully recovered this year, playing a true 3-4 OLB, and has more “football knowledge.” So there is no reason that he can’t reach his true potential.
On a personal note, I am pulling for him, Vernon, and Alex Smith to all have their best seasons as pros. Go Niners!
That's was another tidbit that bothered me about FO report
Thanks for providing a comprehensive answer on Manny Lawson and how he doesn’t fit the criteria FO used to submarine him.
I think FO was just looking for explanation to justify there low DVOA calcuations for the 49ers. A bit of lazy post analysis on their behalf. They also ripped on VD’s passing game production, but we’ve been over the numbers in detail. He can’t catch more passes than attempts given.
The popcorn answer is to say Lawson and VD look like busts. What really needs to be asked is why the 49ers coaching staff hasn’t orchestrated game plans that rely on the talents of their 1st round picks.
while i'm thinking about it
what’s the purpose of a jump? from what i can tell it’s just 3 stars placed randomly in the article.
I take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.
i get it now
i never go to the home page anyway, so i didnt realize the jump made a difference there. i just click all the links from yahoo sports.
I take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.
Gotcha
I figure that’s the case with a lot of folks given that a good chunk of referrals are from Yahoo Sports. If you check out the main page you can also see FanShots on the lower right column. Little links and whatnot that you won’t see coming through Yahoo Sports. Also, you’ll occasionally miss a front page story that was a promoted FanPost or FanShot.
by David Fucillo on Jul 16, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions
the jump
is used for thesis papers like this one, that are long and full of tables, content and in depth analysis. if the entire article appeared prior to the jump, it would take up the entire front page.
what you see on the main page is the text previewing the article, jumping it to the top of the page.
Here's to Joe Perry, all-time leading rusher for the 49ers.
by Andrew Davidson on Jul 15, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
spacing
It’s about spacing. Even if we could fit the same number of articles on the front page, having an article broken up keeps things from looking too cluttered.
Do you not like it? Anything in particular about it that bothers you?
by David Fucillo on Jul 15, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Geez, I hope Manny breaks out this season...
I thought that was a good 1st round draft, Davis and Lawson.
Well, we're waiting....
Will know this year
The 49ers coaching staff hasn’t exactly been great at using either players talent. Both are NFL players but still don’t know if either are worthy of where they are selected. I like VD, but he is highest drafted TE ever, so he does have big shoes to fill.
IMO, Lawson is a bit under appreciated. He does many things well but gets hammered for his lack of pass rush ability. He was a late 1st round pick so to expect Lawrence Taylor is setting the bar a tad high. A reliable starter with some spark is probably a better expectation, he is just missing that little spark.
Anyways, both players are the current lighting rods for 49er negativity. You either made a great joke or like the two guys most fans share disgust for.
I think the expectations were too high...
That’s more on Nolan and the rest of the FO justifying their picks though, like Alex Smith. Nolan and ScotM always tried to sell the talent high. I would just hate to see 2 years of 1st round picks go into the toilet, where players like Druckenmiller (Policy, this middle finger is for you for that joke of a pick) belong.
Well, we're waiting....
?
Your account has been high-jacked by some weird optimist.
by SportsChicken on Jul 15, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions
My pessimism is more geared..
Towards the 49er Brass, outside of a few players. That includes Policy too for his mistakes.
Well, we're waiting....
a little piece of me
dies whenever i think about drukenmiller…
"I’d suggest it’s better dead if it’s holding onto anything Alex Smith"
fixed
Well, we're waiting....
You think I am going to take Alex's side?
I’m the guy who argues Aaron Rodgers is/always has been the better QB . . . but Nolan liked the QB who could make more big plays with his feet. He also prefers WRs for their blocking ability and OL for their YAC.
At least a QB does have to use it’s feet at times. The next time a QB makes a play for his ability to bench press a car will be the first which was the excuse for drafting Drukenmiller.
I don't know if this was a mistake or a joke
He also prefers WRs for their blocking ability and OL for their YAC.
But I lol’d
by SportsChicken on Jul 16, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Dru(n)kenmiller...
Being able to bench press a car may help you. Marino was gawdawfully strong, but had no knees since college. I can’t remember how many times I saw him avoid sacks by stiff-arming pass rushers away or into the ground, that he had no chance whatsoever at running away from. The really terrible thing about Druckenmiller was that he was a moron, in a book sense, a life sense, and a football sense. A similar deficit is crippling that mongoloid Tenessee drafted, Vince Young.
Doesn't Marino have only like 100ish career rushing yards?
He was like a really awesome passing-turret.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jul 16, 2009 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
the piece of me
that used to trust the choices of our front office… it’s completely dead now
correction on highest drafted TE
Mike Ditka was picked 5th overall and Ron Kramer was drafted 4th overall. Also Kellen Winslow II was drafted 6th overall
Go 49ers
They looked good at the time.
Of course, much success depends on who’s around them.
If Manny has his speed back and is used to pass rush with more frequency than Nolan did then he should have better numbers, and more importantly better results.
VD? We had big expectations and every year we’ve been a little disappointed. We can pin some of it on Martz’s misuse of him, and before that Hostler’s misuse of the offense. Let’s see how he does in a more conventional offense with shorter routes and a few more opportunities.
by Bob In Beaverton on Jul 15, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
So did I.
From an outsider’s perspective, that draft looked far better than the one that produced Alex Smith. To be fair, the jury’s still out on both Davis and Lawson.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I was reading a Ram forum...
At a rival board, and they were saying the 49ers had a heckuva day. They were pissed. Brandon Williams was a waste of a pick, but overall to get those 2 players with potentially high ceilings was pretty good.
Of course, the 49ers as a whole don’t know what the heck they’re doing, so the ceiling is Lilliputian as of right now.
Well, we're waiting....
800
lilliputian…there’s a word i didn’t expect to see on here…ever.
hooray for vocabulary…and kudos to you for using it.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 15, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions
No, not really.
If Shaun Hill wins the QB battle, Smith is basically an official bust. If Smith wins the QB battle but then continues to play awfully, well, I guess he’s still a bust. His career would have to take a complete 180 to avoid it.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jul 15, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions
This is confusing.
The official point in declaring Alex Smith a bust is if Hill is named starting quarterback. Why not after his first year? Or his second year? Why not after his injury, or when JT O’Sullivan was named starter over him?
I don’t know if Smith will ever be a very good quarterback in the NFL, and if he is if he will be with the Niners.
I just don’t understand the need to trying to push him into a casket and nail it shut.
by Bob In Beaverton on Jul 16, 2009 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Just playing devil's advocate.
“Why not after his first year?”
Rookie mistakes, needs time to adjust, etc…
“Or his second year? Why not after his injury, or when JT O’Sullivan was named starter over him?”
Injuries aren’t (usually) player’s faults, it can be argued JTO was Martz’ horse from the beginning.
Basically, there’s no excuse now.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jul 16, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Vernin Davis, Manny Lawson, and Alex Smith all have had the same issue!
They weren’t surrounded by talent, or their coaches around them didn’t create off of their abilities, and face it, after years of dominating the NFC WEST at some time there has to be a gap in success. Name another franchise that has more 10 win seasons thaqt never had a spell of being in dissaray. Now is the time for the emergence of our most talented draft picks, that should be more optimistic about oppurtunities and what arond them!!
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
True
The talent level on the roster has improved over the last few years. If Davis thrives with the collection of receivers, if Lawson has good wheels, if Smith functions as the team leader, then good. If they don’t thrive with the better talent around them, then they were overvalued to begin with. This year’s the test.
by Bob In Beaverton on Jul 16, 2009 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions
That's a good idea..
Although their e-mail box must get flooded with article’s like Danny’s.
Well, we're waiting....
Mediocre Manny, what?
Hey,
Just wanted to say that I appreciate the work you put into your post. I don’t want to imagine the time it takes you to put this stuff together. Either way you deserve a raise. I’m not sure how to digest all this info really I just wanted to clown around, so here we go:
Forget Mediocre Manny, I think…
…Manslaughter Manny…

…has a much better ring
Why would you equate sack total to success for Lawson?
Raise your hand if you actually watch football instead of just reading the stat sheet….I actually watch the 49ers play football and have missed only a handful of games in Manny Lawson’s career and to hinge his boom/bust status on sack total is ridiculous because he is so seldom used as a pass rusher. Even when he is 1. he plays on the right side so there’s a tight end chipping him 2. The 49ers haven’t had dominant interior defensive lineman to eat up extra blockers during his tenure and 3. The 49ers defensive philosophy was painfully conservative under Nolan, they didn’t blitz much and mostly waited/hoped the other team would make a mistake.
Manny had his hand in the dirt in college as a down lineman, the 49ers switched him to a linebacker hybrid his rookie season and have had him in coverage at least as often as they’ve had him rush the passer. That Lawson started at a new position his rookie season and played pretty well was impressive. He was often 1v1 on a RB or TE in coverage or in the flat in zone coverage as well as having outside containment in run support (his run support has been well above average). His rookie campaign wasn’t a blockbuster, but I think it’s fair to say it was a success. His second year was wiped out and I thought last year he didn’t look great but he wasn’t blowing games either.. the injury he sustained often take two years to fully recover from.
Look, you’re not going to hit it out of the park with every first round pick, if you can get an above average starter with a late first round pick that’s about par. Don’t write Lawson off and certainly don’t throw him under the bus, he’s done about as well as can be expected under the circumstances.
by Johnnysixnut on Jul 15, 2009 9:12 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
clarification
When I said he plays on the right side I meant he plays against the offense’s right side…so defensive left side.
by Johnnysixnut on Jul 15, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Manny will need someone like evans or Balmer to step up to be effective
I have to give some credit to Smith for the success of Haralson.
aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)
FO response
Bill Barnwell just responded to Florida Danny over at FO.com:
http://footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2009/foa-09-media-fisking-football-outsiders-49ers
by armchair middle distance runner on Jul 16, 2009 2:48 AM PDT reply actions
thanks
Danny is going to throw up a response to that later this afternoon.
by David Fucillo on Jul 16, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions
So Bill draws a harder line
He’s backed himself into a corner on his stance. The 49ers drafted Lawson for the sole purpose of rushing the passer, he’s not a good pass rusher so he must be a bust. Was Lawson drafted for his ability to get sacks or was the team looking for a guy with the flexibility of Julian Peterson? Considering how he’s been used for 3 years, in combination with the other personnel they have brought in, I’d say the case is the later.
If Lawson is a bust he is sure a strange one to classify. He’s on the field for most downs, even on 3rd down he drops into coverage well. If he is bust he’s in the analogy of the guy who gets drafted to play LT and ends up being a good RT.
I can't say the response overwhelmed me.
Funny, though, how some commenters say that Danny’s stats aren’t relevant.
Goes to what I’ve said, though. Football is such an intricate game, with so many moving parts, that one player’s stats (or even actual effectiveness) are dependent on what ten other players do, and what they do may not show up on a stat sheet. Is there a stat for how many players a defensive lineman engages on a five-step drop pass play?
As an extreme example, if the Niners lead the league in sacks in ‘09 and Lawson doesn’t get any or just a few, did he have a bad year? You’d guess he had by the stat sheets. But it’s what he and his teammates do on the field, as a team, that dictates good or bad.
by Bob In Beaverton on Jul 16, 2009 8:24 AM PDT reply actions
You can argue stats
Until your blue in the face.
Arguing statistics x Blue in the face r = .99
The unexplained variance can be attributed to FO and Danny from Florida. They love this too much. lol
ONE THING
Just for stats and to prove what FO was trying to say….only one linebacker that didn’t have 6 sacks in his first two season and played in a 4-3 ever had a 10+ sack season later….LaVar Arrington, who had 11….but only 8 more than that over the rest of his career.
SO I think they were trying to say it isn’t likely that he’d be successful improving his sacks….except they forgot he’s switching to a 3-4. While the in-depth analysis was excellent, and without that research I would have had to look it all up myself, the actual answer could have been that simple. Yep, I’m a Cowboys fan. However, excellent post, well researched, informative, and documented. :) Good luck to the niners this season, I’d love to see the niners-cowboys playoff battles rekindled.
Too bad it's unlikely either team makes the playoffs soon.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Jul 17, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
oh, and further proving that 3-4 makes a difference (to show my support for the blog), Greg Ellis was a solid but not spectacular DE in the 4-3, generally getting 6-8 sacks per year over the first 8 years of his career…but never had a 10+ sack season until he switched to OLB in the 3-4, where he had his best season ever, 12.5, at 32 years old. Good luck Manny, if not a stud, you’ll still look better in the sacks category after the next couple of seasons in this defense.

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