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Around SBN: Identifying The 19th-Best Team In Baseball

NFC West Position-by-Position: Inside/Middle Linebacker

This week we move on to one of my favorite positions on the 49ers roster: the inside linebacker.  Given the mix of 3-4 and 4-3 defenses it's a mix of inside linebackers and middle linebackers.  To date, we've addressed defensive end, defensive/nose tackle, quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, tight ends, centers, offensive tackles, guards and total offense.  Now we get to look at the dynamic duo of Patrick WIllis and Takeo Spikes.  Yes there's also Scott McKillop and Jeff Ulbrich, among others, but let's be honest.  We know why we're all here when it comes to inside linebackers.  Also, the Rams did a look at all of their linebackers, as opposed to just middle, so we'll be using their write-up this week and next week.

1. Seattle Seahawks
1. San Francisco 49ers
3. Arizona Cardinals
4. St. Louis Rams

Seattle Seahawks
Blogger
: John Morgan
Middle linebacker Lofa Tatupu started his career with three consecutive Pro Bowl appearances. His fourth season was shot to [site decorum] to by injuries. Tatupu badly bruised his knee in week three of the preseason. At the time the diagnosis was a relief, but a bone bruise is painful and can linger for months. Tatupu was listed as probable for the first two weeks of the season. He broke his thumb against Buffalo and didn't have surgery to repair it until January. As of April 9, 2009, he was still wearing a cast. In week seven at Tampa Bay, Tatupu suffered a concussion in the second quarter and missed the remainder of the game. He played in week eight against San Francisco, but was again forced out of action in the first half. This time Tatupu suffered a strained groin. Tatupu appeared as "questionable" in week nine and didn't play against the Philadelphia Eagles. It was the first missed game of his career.

To some—and most confoundingly so—that validated their belief that Tatupu is overrated. It’s a label that started at the 2005 NFL Combine. Tatupu measured an eighth of an inch shorter than six feet and weighed a stocky, but small for a linebacker, 238. His forty time, 4.83, is surpassed by some linemen. That led Tim Ruskell’s decision to trade up to acquire Lofa Tatupu in the middle of the second round to be widely criticized by draft pundits and those that ape their opinions. His early success and quick fame fueled the backlash.

Now, Pro Bowls are not a particularly keen measure of talent. Many scouts are dubious that Tatupu is an elite middle linebacker. His range isn’t exceptional. Even in his better seasons, his tackle numbers are pedestrian and that’s always going to be the money number for linebackers. It shouldn’t be.

Some players produce tackles all over the field. Others are just cleaning up. Oakland Raiders Kirk Morrison and Gibril Wilson ranked fifth and sixth in total tackles for 2008. Their team ranked first in opponent rushing attempts and 27th in rushing yards allowed per attempt. Their run defense sucked. Morrison and Wilson converted the tackles others didn’t.

Tatupu makes productive tackles. He doesn’t get too far outside the tackles box, but the ball carrier doesn’t get too far from the line of scrimmage either. In 2007, he was involved in 63 fewer plays, but had the same number of defeats* as Patrick Willis: 30. He stopped 66 runs and those runs averaged just 2.2 yards.

Tatupu also excels against the pass. He has nine interceptions and 29 passes defended over four seasons. He is smart and disciplined in a zone and makes up for his average speed with great decision making and precise angles. Tatupu is mostly a support blitzer: Bating the lead blocker or pressuring and sometimes hitting, but rarely converting the sack.

What makes Tatupu special though is his leadership. I shy from celebrating what is often a media creation, but Tatupu isn’t a presence or a legend, he’s player that smartly audibles stunts, picks out routes and points out plays before they happen. That is, he isn’t the kind of leader that contributes swagger, he’s the kind that teaches, directs and maximizes the talent around him. Kind of like Mike Singletary…

Mike Singletary the player, that is.

Seattle’s depth is debatable. D.D. Lewis is a serviceable starter at all three linebacker positions that has improved as a run stopper and is capable enough in pass pro. David Hawthorne is a hard hitting run stopper that’s not yet ready for Sunday. The wildcard is Aaron Curry. A player that probably could play middle linebacker in a pinch, and like almost everything football related, would be damn good at it. But no one expects Tatupu to miss time, and so because Seattle is starting a Hall of Fame-potential middle linebacker in his prime, I’m giving the Seahawks an A+ -- rules be damned.

Star-divide

San Francisco 49ers
Blogger: Fooch
The 49ers probably don't have a ton of depth at inside linebacker.  However, the players they go with put them in a great position to succeed.  The 49ers start Patrick Willis and Takeo Spikes at the two inside linebacker positions.  If you don't know what Patrick Willis brings to the table, you've missed out on some impressive football.  Bamm Bamm (labeled by pre-Ocho Cinco Chad Johnson) is a tackling machine.  Obviously he's played with some sorry talent at times, but even still, he set the single season record for tackles as a rookie (since tackles have been recorded).  He seems to have a nose for the ball combined with great closing ability.  There have been countless instances of Willis tracking down a running back just as they're about to turn the corner for a big gain.  That closing ability (and never say die attitude) was shown on a national stage his rookie season when he ran down Cardinals WR Sean Morey in overtime to save a touchdown (leading to a missed Rackers FG).  The one area he can improve on is his pass coverage, but even that has been improving.  I could write for days about the greatness that is Bamm Bamm, but I'll just leave it with that.

 
Takeo Spikes was signed at the beginning of training camp last season to compete for the Ted position in the 3-4.  The previous Ted had been Derek Smith who put up decent tackling numbers, but was clearly running out of gas when the team drafted Willis.  Spikes was coming off a season-ending injury in Philadelphia, but you never would have guessed it by the end of 2008.  Spikes tied for second on the team in tackles and was tied for the lead in interceptions (probably not a good thing).  He's brought an outspoken veteran leadership to the defense that complements the blue collar quiet leader Justin Smith.  Spikes will eventually lose a step or two, but at this point, at the age of 32, he's still running strong.  It probably helps that he doesn't have to be the key playmaker.  Defenses will game-plan around Willis, leaving Spikes to continue making plays.
 
There is a significant drop-off after the starters, at least for now.  The team drafted Scott McKillop in the fifth round out of Pitt to basically be the Ted linebacker of the future, once Spikes is put out to pasture.  I'd imagine 2009 will see McKillop get a lot of time on special teams, and the occasional bit of mop-up duty (hopefully the good kind) on defense.  He's a tough tackler who would seem to eventually fit in nicely next to Patrick Willis.
 
Jeff Ulbrich was going to be given a chance to compete for the starting Ted position last season but never really had the chance once Spikes was brought in.  Ulbrich is a senior 49er, entering his 10th season with the team.  He actually took a pay cut to avoid getting released, which is important because of his special teams prowess.  He's a blue collar linebacker who does the little things for the team.  He'll never be a flashy stand-out, but the 49ers don't really need that at this point.  Aside from Ulbrich, Ahmad Brooks has spent some time as an inside linebacker, but will likely have his best crack of joining the roster as an outside linebacker.  Beyond that, the 49ers have some roster fodder in guys like Mark Washington and Justin Roland; guys who might have a chance at the practice squad, but likely not much else.
 

The 49ers don't have a ton of depth at inside linebacker.  If Patrick Willis were to go down, the team would be in a whole heapload of trouble.  Nonetheless, Willis is a tough guy who has played through pain in the past.  Additionally, guys like Ulbrich and McKillop will be able to spell an older veteran like Takeo Spikes.  That helps the grade, but the talent that is starting for the 49ers alone gives me sufficient reason to grade them out as an A unit.

Arizona Cardinals
Blogger: cgolden
For at least one more season the Arizona Cardinals should boast an inside linebacking crew that well above average, at least as far as the starters are concerned. I say for at least one more season because it's pretty clear that Karlos Dansby is ready and waiting to jump into what he hopes is a very lucrative free agent pool in next year's uncapped NFL. He's quietly become one of the better inside linebackers in the league and there's no reason to think that this season couldn't be his best yet. As you'd expect from an inside backer, Dansby is capable of making plays from sideline to sideline and he can deliver a significant blow once he reaches the ball carrier. What sets him apart from many backers though is his ability to rush the pass just as well as he plays the run or drops into coverage. There are a certain faction of fans that even champion moving him to the OLB spot in the Cardinals new 3-4 defense since he'd likely be the pass rusher on the team from the outside. Despite the backwoods campaign though Dansby isn't moving and the Cardinals are expecting big things out of the 27 year old backer, especially considering that they're paying him almost ten million dollars this season.

The unsung hero of the Cardinals defense for the past several years is Gerald Hayes. Since missing the entire 2005 season with in injury, he's played in 46 of 48 games and averaged 93 tackles per season. He isn't flashy or dynamic but he's the perverbial 'thumper' in the middle of the Cards defense and he'll jar a couple of fumbles loose every season with his punishing hits. He's at his best when he can diagnose a play in front of him and move downhill towards the ball and along the same lines he's a decent pass rusher, although he'll prefer to run over a defender as opposed to running around or spinning around them. He's not necessarily a 'two down' backer but the Cardinals use Adrian Wilson like a linebacker on passing downs so Hayes will come off field at times in those situations. You won't find Hayes on Sportscenter but he's one of the 'glue' guys that hold this defense together.

The Cardinals lost their top backup LB, Monty Beisel, to the Chiefs in free agency so their depth is a bit thin. Ali Highsmith and/or Victor Hobson should get the first shot at backing up Dansby and Hayes. Highsmith, an undrafted rookie last year, showed promise during the preseason last year and was making a name for himself on special teams before a torn ACL ended his season prematurely. The biggest question for him will be his health and how much size he's put on during his first season of professional ball. Hobson is a veteran of the 3-4 defense and had a 100 tackle, six sack season in 2006, but since then he's been cut by the Jets, Patriots and Bengals. He played on the outside in 2006 but the Cardinals think that with his size (6-0, 254) he'll be better utilized on the inside. Also on the radar is Pago Togafua but his lack of size (5-10, 240) suggests that he's nothing more than a special team's contributor. Two undrafted free agents are also in the picture, Reggie Walker and Chase Bullock, but it's hard to tell how much of an impact they will make. With the lack of quality depth anything is possible though.

Overall the Cardinals have a very solid starting duo (dare I say A-range) but the depth leaves quite a bit to be desired. Taking that into consideration I can't go any higher than a grade of B.

St. Louis Rams
Blogger
: VanRam
In a division trademarked for its linebackers, the St. Louis Rams were embarrassingly substandard last year, thanks to poor decision making that left Will Witherspoon in the middle and arrogantly allowed an emerging Brandon Chillar to flee for greener, more frozen pastures. Addressing the situation at linebacker has been a top offseason priority for the defensive-minded new regime led by head coach Steve Spagnuolo and defensive coordinator Ken Flajole.

The Rams made their first big move of the offseason when they announced that Will Witherspoon would be moved back to his natural position on the weakside. That move was deemed so important, it happened before the free agent free for all and well ahead of the draft. The move will free up the athletic Witherspoon from having to take on huskier linemen and lead blockers in the middle, where he was long miscast with the Rams. Besides giving the team a more effective LB in coverage and pursuit, Witherspoon's presence on the outside gives them another threat to rush the passer. He won't likely top his career high 7 sacks from 2007, but he'll get plenty of work in the attack-first system. He's also being reunited with Ken Flajole, his linebackers coach with the Panthers.

The Rams have desperately needed a true middle linebacker and snagged  their man, James Laurinaitis, with their second round pick. He has the size and ability to read and react well to action in the gaps in front of him, and displayed real talent against the run and in coverage. Most importantly, Little Animal has the intelligence and football acumen to be the "field general" that Spagnuolo has traditionally asked his middle linebackers to play. Laurinaitis won't be known for bone crushing hits like Rey Maualuga, the other top MLB in this year's draft, but he's a solid tackler and a tough player. Lots of draft pundits felt like NFL success early on was a realistic expectation for Laurinaitis. He's currently working out with the second team, but no one expects him to stay there. Early reports have been very positive.

On the strongside, the picture gets muddled after the release of Pisa Tinoisamoa, deemed a less-than-perfect fit for the new defensive scheme. Though Pisa was a contributor, it's easy to forget that he battled consistency from week to week and often had trouble with blown gap assignments and bigger, more physical blockers. Right now, three players are vying for the SLB spot in the starting lineup. Veteran Chris Draft tops the list at the moment, but his ability to play all three positions likely keeps him in the all-important utility role. Larry Grant, a 49ers cast off picked up to bolster special teams last year, is another candidate for the job thanks to an impressive work ethic (a commodity valued immensely by the new coaching staff), a good spring and strong, yet unheralded performances with the team last year. Don't discount the something-to-prove factor at play here as Grant gets the chance to see the 49ers twice a year. He was also a teammate of Laurinaitis at Ohio State. The third entrant in the SLB sweepstakes is last year's Mr. Irrelevant, David Vobora. The former Idaho Vandal saw action on special teams last year and in the LB rotation for 8 games. He ended up starting a game down the stretch - partly for an audition, partly out of need - and racked up 5 tackles, 4 solo, in a tight game against the Dolphins.

Vobora and Grant should both make the roster, regardless of who gets the starting job. After those five, the depth chart is rounded out by Quinton Culberson and Chris Chamberlain. Culberson was tapped to start on the strongside at the beginning of last year, but was promptly replaced. He has talent that needs to be honed into a more consistent product. He'll have the chance to do that in camp this year, but if he can't put it together Culberson will be another casualty of regime change. Chamberlain is another seventh round pick from last year. He may get some work in the rotation given his play in coverage, but he'll be counted on to step up his strong special teams play from last year. There are a couple of other names in the mix from undrafted rookie pool, the most intriguing among them being Mississippi State's Dominic Douglas, who led the SEC in tackles last season.

The Rams are in a much better place with their linebackers than they have been in a long, long time, thanks mostly to the addition of Laurinaitis and Witherspoon's move back to his natural spot. There are still very real concerns about depth here, and it would surprise no one to see the team pluck a roster casualty when teams start making cuts this fall. Spagnuolo and Flajole have reputations for finding diamonds in the rough among defensive players and their success with linebackers is being counted upon here.

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So...do the Rams have a grade, or what?

Maybe I just missed it.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 11:48 AM PDT reply actions  

I sure wish...

That Patrick Willis was as good as Lofa Tatupu…

The cake is a lie.

by Sultan of Seitan on Jul 24, 2009 12:15 PM PDT reply actions  

That would be nice...

Maybe some day. Niner fans could only hope.

by etb2 on Jul 24, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

The guy had SEVERAL injuries last year, so his team gets an A+ at MiLB???!!!! How does that work?

by aBulldog on Jul 24, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

JM is acting a little strange

While I’m not sure that A+ is absolutely justified, I think the reason for it is that JM took into account leadership of the team. While Willis is a freakish athlete, Tatupu is much more of a “QB of the defense”. While Willis makes amazing plays, Tatupu makes the defense better by directing the action (not that he hasn’t made some great plays nor that he hasn’t had lapses directing the defense).

Tatupu is like Chris Paul—undersized and scrappy with an eye towards setting up his teammates. Willis is like Rondo—an athletic stat-filling monster that is a great player, but just isn’t quite as good at improving the play of his teammates.

I’m not sure that I’d, personally, give Tatupu an A+, given his play (and the play of the rest of the D) last year (injured or not), but he has been a great player in the past.

by ninjasocks on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rondo? Really Rondo.

That is disgusting comparison, CP3 is better in EVERY regard compared to Rondo.

by Mullester on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

point guards

While Paul is a better point guard at this point, to say it’s a disgusting comparison is a bit of an exaggeration. The numbers are close at this point, but I think Rondo will end up going down as a better rebounder than Paul. Paul is obviously a better scorer. Paul’s numbers elsewhere are better (steals, assists), but not so much that Rondo can’t even be remotely compared to him.

by David Fucillo on Jul 24, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I forgot your a Celtic Fan.

At least we can agree neither of us like the Lakers. Also I was wondering to settle a lot of the debate could Florida Danny do a statistical comparison between Willis and Tatupu?

by Mullester on Jul 25, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

interesting

Let me check with him. Very interesting potential for a post there.

by David Fucillo on Jul 25, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rondo did pretty well for himself in the playoffs this year

While I’m not sure that Rondo is the best example for my metaphor simile, but he is the closest guy to the PG archetype I had in my head.

Both Willis and Tatupu are top-tier MLB/ILBs who help their teams in different ways. Willis is physically talented and offers a lot of production as an individual while Tatupu is less physically-gifted, but offers direction and leadership that makes his teammates play better.

by ninjasocks on Jul 24, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Iverson?

Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl

by Viliphied on Jul 24, 2009 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Today's Iverson is kind of a bum (and I was looking for a current player)

Prime Iverson was kind of a ball-hog that limited the offensive output of others. Willis doesn’t hurt the production of other players (there’s no ball to monopolize on defense), but he doesn’t add to it the way that Tatupu does. There may not be a perfect match, but then that is problem with analogies.

by ninjasocks on Jul 24, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fooch

weren’t you getting blasted for the exact type of stuff John Morgan says regarding Seattle?

Patrick Willis and Takeo Spikes are not an A+? I’d like to poll all 32 NFL GMs to see what they’d grade Willis/Spikes as a pair.

If anything, these were the only two guys we could rely on in 2008 (aside from Justin Smith). Spikes tied for the team lead in INTs in ’08, and Willis is never out of position (or off the field).

To say Lofa Tatupu is an A+ over Willis and Spikes is a [site decoruming] outrage. I don’t care how many the injuries the guy sustained last year, and how excellent he has been in the past. The 49ers get to put TWO MLBs on the field at once, and probably the best pair in the NFC.

Condsidering the depth behind Tatupu is worth ta-two-poos, there’s no way Seattle receives an A+. Does Aaron Curry automatically boost every aspect of Seattle’s defense? Is he penciled in to receive any playing time at ILB this season for Seattle, because I thought he was strictyl going to be OLB with the occasional DE sprinkle.

SF MLBs → A+
SEA MLBs → B+

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 24, 2009 1:22 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't see how fielding two ILBs due to the nature of defense is reason for a higher grade than a ridiculously good single ILB.

And the depth behind Tatupu isn’t bad, it’s rather good if you ask me…

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

David Hawthorne

What has Hawthorne done to prove he’s a good back up? He played in 14 games in 2008, and he started no games. Other than special teams tackles, did he make any tackles?

Tatupu was banged up, but still managed to play in ans start 15 games. It’s not the fact that your playing injured, its the fact that you are playing. He had a poor season, and you can blame it on anything you want, but the fact is, he only missed one game. That alone amplifies his toughness, but does not justify the Seattle unit getting an A+. Because as evidenced last year, if Tatupu is playing it doesn’t mean he’s playing his best.

D.D. Lewis may have played some MLB last season, but isn’t he projected as a back up OLB this season? If the Hawks would have to rely on a back up OLB over a primary MLB as a back up, does that unit deserve an A+?

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 24, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hawthorne is the 3rd-string MLB

He played pretty well in preseason last year, but is still a prospect.

DD Lewis played MLB for the 2005 Superbowl team. He’s a vet, but he’s a pretty decent backup (with the flexibility to play a couple of LB positions).

Tatupu definitely didn’t play at the A+ level last year. This grade is all about past performance (pre-2008) and future performance. In addition to injuries, there was some talk that the new in-helmet radios on the defensive side, introduced last year, kinda messed with his instinctiveness and playmaking ability.

by ninjasocks on Jul 24, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's hard to imagine anybody doing well with the injuries that Tatupu suffered.

And as for the depth. I know this isn’t the best predictor of success, but Hawthorne earned himself a reputation throughout training camp and the preseason as a very fierce tackler. Now, I’m not saying he’d be a great starter, and definitely not able to sniff Tatupu’s jockstrap, but if he were called upon in a pinch due to Tats being injured or something, I’m sure he would decent as a stopgap at stuffing the run. D.D. Lewis plays all LB positions and was a starting LB during Seattle’s Super Bowl season (he’s the guy who stopped Ben Roethlisberger on that ‘touchdown’ in SBXL), and he’s a dependable veteran who did very well when Tatupu and Hill both went down with injuries. He probably would be starting and do a good job of it had Aaron Curry not been drafted. Speaking of Curry, from what I’ve heard, it seems he would make a far better ILB than an OLB, so if things got dire he could step in if need be. Leroy Hill also played MLB in college and his tackles increased last season when Tatupu was suffering injuries because he’s a great tackler.

Also, Willis is good, and Spikes was good, but there are questions with Spikes. He sucked in Philadelphia, is he going to decline some more due to injury? If either Willis or Spikes get injured, who steps up? Scott McKillop?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Spikes sucked in Philly

so? He is here now and he had a good season last year. If were talking about the past like John Morgan did with Tatupu, we might as well say the 49ers are a A+ at QB because we had Joe Montana and Steve Young.

Go 49ers

by iaalexeeff on Jul 24, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because players don't get better after 30.

In fact, most get worse.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd say...

That Willis and Spikes (our defensive assignment at ILB) do their job better than Tatupu (your lone defensive assignment at ILB.) Scheme aside.

by James Brady on Jul 24, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Why would you ever think that?

Because Willis has more tackles?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

A+

is obviously the highest grade you could have…..What other teams in the NFL would you give an A+ to? Is Tatupu the best LB in the country

And does Takeo Spikes bring down the rating to an A?
Tatupu is certainly better than the average of Willis and Spikes, but in a 3-4 having a pretty good #2 is as valuable as having a great #1 because they play of each other

If I gotta play, I'm gonna play 'till I win,
Since I gotta be here, I can´t wait to begin

by albertoleecho on Jul 24, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

grades

I’ve kept all grades at full, rather than pluses or minuses. One of the reasons some end up too high and some end up too low.

by David Fucillo on Jul 24, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

"I’m giving the Seahawks an A+ -- rules be damned."

or not

If I gotta play, I'm gonna play 'till I win,
Since I gotta be here, I can´t wait to begin

by albertoleecho on Jul 24, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

nvm

I misread it I believe

If I gotta play, I'm gonna play 'till I win,
Since I gotta be here, I can´t wait to begin

by albertoleecho on Jul 24, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

If anything, these were the only two guys we could rely on in 2008 (aside from Justin Smith).

That’s not really saying a lot on the 49ers defense from last season.

by sfgfan on Jul 24, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope, it sure isn’t. But I can’t think of three other guys that were more dependable in 2008.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 24, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

You mean...

… on the 49ers roster or in the NFL? If you’re speaking in terms of 49ers, then you’re probably right. If you’re talking about the rest of the league, however, that’s quite the stretch.

by sfgfan on Jul 24, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

49ers roster

in terms of the rest of the league, no.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 24, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ulbrich
He actually took a pay cut to avoid getting released

Can’t blame the guy, I’d want to get on the 10-year wall also.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 24, 2009 1:26 PM PDT reply actions  

A bay area native, a 49er fan as a youth, and a guy that came into the league seeing stars...

I don’t see Ulbrich ever playing for another team – unless he’s forced out of town, which seems unlikely.

My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.

by shlecko on Jul 24, 2009 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Keith Brooking felt the same way.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

He was also a lot better at football than Ulbrich.

And thus, more expensive and more likely to draw interest from other NFL teams.

But yeah, I dig.

My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.

by shlecko on Jul 24, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Careful guys

Apparently saying anything negative or at Field Gulls is unthinkable and your a troll. Obviously none of us is worthy to question the wisdom of John Morgan, there’s no way he could possibly be biased at all. ;-)

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 24, 2009 6:35 PM PDT reply actions  

First, you claimed that it was unthinkable that Tatupu could be as good as Willis

Then you claimed that the Niners’ ILBs were better than the Hawk’ MLBs because Willis + Spikes > Tatupu plus backups, implying that its clearly better to start 2 LBs in the middle than 1.

It’s one thing to go onto someone else’s board and talk a little smack. It’s another thing entirely when you do it in a fact-free manner and expect a warm welcome. For the most part, Field Gull commenters respond politely to polite commentary and talk back when insulted. If you brought more support for your contentions and toned down the ‘tude a bit you’d probably get a better reception.

by ninjasocks on Jul 24, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hope you don't mind me quoting you
Here’s what makes the Niners clearly better in my mind

Willis > Tatupu
Spikes > D.D. Lewis

That’s it, simple as that. Unless we’re going to start arguing about the 3rd and 4th best LB’s on each team making up the difference, or if you disagree with my view on the top two, I don’t see what there is to debate here.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 24, 2009 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It doesn’t make a lick of sense and it doesn’t invite reasoned discussion.

by ninjasocks on Jul 24, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Spikes isnt a backup

If I gotta play, I'm gonna play 'till I win,
Since I gotta be here, I can´t wait to begin

by albertoleecho on Jul 24, 2009 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

So then you understand that it doesn't make sense to compare him to backup

Which is what Brent is doing to determine the value of the MLB/ILB corps of the Niners and Seahawks.

by ninjasocks on Jul 24, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

This.

His argument is borderline absurd and I’m not quite sure if he’s being serious or just trolling.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not trolling

It was an honest point. Clearly I can’t make you see it my way, but it’s certainly not absurd. In my opinion each Niners ILB is better than the corresponding Seahawks LB. How much playing time they get is not factoring into the evaluation.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 24, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

What part of 'Takeo Spikes does not correspond with the Seahawks backup ILB' do you not understand?

Honestly, I’m all for opinions, but yours is based off an incorrect assumption.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is where I'm coming from

If the Niners and Seahawks switched ILB’s the Seahawks would be a better team and the Niners would get worse, regardless of scheme. Does that not make sense to you or do you just disagree?

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 24, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Except that's wholly wrong.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Could you maybe explain that a little?

How do you know the Seahawks would be worse off with the Niners ILB’s and vice versa?

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 25, 2009 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't.

But since you brought it up, burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of that. Because at face value, that’s absolutely outlandish.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 25, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure whether to laugh or not

It’s absolutely outlandish that the Niners ILB’s would perform better in either scheme than the Seahawks ILB’s??? When the Niners have what many people consider to be the best ILB in the world in Patrick Willis? How could you possibly say something like that?

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 25, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because Patrick Willis is not the best LB.

Not even the best ILB. I don’t even know why you’d get that impression. I hope it isn’t because of his tackle numbers.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 25, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

You may not think so

But most people would agree he’s better than Lofa Tatupu. And saying it’s absolutely outlandish to believe that ruins your credibility. At best it’s a toss up between the two.

I think Seattle would be better with Patrick Willis at MLB instead of Lofa Tatupu. That’s not a fact but it’s not outlandish.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 25, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Seahawks would not be...

a better team simply by trading Willis (who has not to this point proven to be a quarterback of a defense) for Tatupu, so that we can have a better backup at MLB in Spikes.

Your logic is faulty. Period. Being different schemes, we only need 1 inside linebacker, you need two. If you want to compare your 4 linebackers to our 3 in starting roles, that’s fine, and, simply put, ours are much better.

But to count 2 as better than 1 is pointless, because 2=1 in comparative schemes.

I suppose our DT’s are like twice as good as yours, because we have two and you have one…

Look, Willis is a great player. And he’s young and flashy and that’s great. Tatupu just also happens to be a great player as well. You wouldn’t trade Willis for Tatupu, and we wouldn’t trade Tatupu for Willis.

Such is life, and there’s nothing wrong with liking the best defensive players on your team, for either of us. Bottom line though, you seem to be missing the point that Tatupu is legit. His statistics are solid, not amazing, but his leadership and ability to adjust and audible the defense is incredible, and worthy of an “A plus rules be damned” grade.

Please, for the LOVE OF GOD, stop suggesting next year's 1st round pick (or picks) be used for Taylor Mays and or a QB of the future. Let's just let the season unfold, people, and evaluate much deeper in the process!!!

by Tyler Jorgensen on Jul 25, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Do you just not read anything I say or what?

It would make the Seahawks better because they would upgrade the starters and the backups! Willis is an upgrade over Tatupu and Spikes is an upgrade over your backups. If you upgrade both your starting lineup and the backups how could that unit not be better?!?!

Seriously, the fact that you guys continually say that my only point is that 2>1 makes me question whether you even read the opposing arguments. I know Tatupu is very good, but the consensus around the NFL is Willis is better. If you want to believe otherwise just because Tatupu wears a Seahawks uniform that’s your prerogative.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 25, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Willis is a downgrade from Tatupu.

Lofa Tatupu is a superior linebacker than Patrick Willis. Willis brings a minor upgrade in run-stuffing (simply because he’s larger and better at shedding blockers), but Tatupu is far better at pass-coverage, one of the most cerebral players in the game, and a true leader.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 25, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well that's your opinion

I think Willis is better and I think most people would agree. Whether or not actually he is, I don’t think it’s so crazy to agree with my point of view.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 25, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is quite hilarious

Downgrade my A$$, he has a few more int’s, whoopty doo, there is no comparison in physical talent or strength, and if you swap the players Seatle would improve adn the 49ers would decline, don’t know how cerebral he is but how exactly do you measure that. 50 more tackles is more than a minor upgrade at run stuffing and tatupa’s pass defense statistics is what seems to be a minimal upgrade!!

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 26, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

No, they wouldn't.

Pass defense is moree important than run-stopping ability, and considering Tatupu is already an elite run-defender as well, it’s clear who’s better.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 26, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

-1

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 26, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Frog is right about the relative importance on D.

According to advancednflstats.com, pass D is the second-biggest factor in determining wins. Run D is the least important.

by thebyron on Jul 26, 2009 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Linebackers stop run, DB's stop pass

If I gotta play, I'm gonna play 'till I win,
Since I gotta be here, I can´t wait to begin

by albertoleecho on Jul 26, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really??

Who was the last superbowl winner with poor RUN defense?

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 27, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

just a side note

Patrick Willis had 10 pass defenses in 2008, and an INT to the house (say what you will about it, but its in the stat sheet).

I’d say that’s pretty good production out of the MLB position. In fact, it was third in the NFL for any LB, not just MLB.

Tatupu had 4 PDs and 1 INT, and Seattle was getting passed on all season long. You can blame it on injury, but he played in 15 games.

Willis was third in the NFL in pass defended, I’m not sure why that makes him any lesser in pass coverage than Lofa Tatupu my friend.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 26, 2009 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't

see RLott’s comment further down the page, I apologize. I didn’t realize this had already been said.

moving along gents, moving along.

by Andrew Davidson on Jul 26, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

That certainly is absurd.

Indy’s QB would be worth an A, right? Jim Sorgi doesn’t bring down the level of Peyton Manning. Playing time has to be a factor. Include the backups in the rating by all means, but don’t give them equal weight.

by thebyron on Jul 25, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

No I didn't imply that at all

I said Willis was better than Tatupu, and Spikes was better than any of the backups. I didn’t say it was better to start two intstead of one.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 24, 2009 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, Spikes SHOULD be better than the backups.

Seeing as how he’s a STARTER.

Also, why do you think Willis is better than Tatupu?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just my personal opinion

I have very little use for individual defensive statistics in football, so I’m not sure how else I can show my point. This isn’t baseball, it’s not like there’s much statistical evidence to prove either way.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 24, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, so you're going to ignore all stats because they prove contrary to your point?

Because there’s very little evidence Willis is a better LB than Tatupu. He may have more potential but at this point in time, Tatupu is clearly better.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, of course I'm not trying to ignore all stats because they refute my point

I haven’t even looked at them in this case, because they just don’t mean much too me. Look, I’m a huge fan of stats in baseball, I use them all the time. It’s not like I’m trying to be ignorant to what they are saying. I just don’t really think defensive stats in football mean too much. Please, feel free to show me how Tatupu is better than Willis.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 25, 2009 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sure.

Which would you like to see, a comparison of their first two seasons? Or the last two in general?

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 25, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Anything

Whatever you think shows that Tatupu is better.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 25, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Tatupu is clearly better" ????

NFL Networks Rod Woodson top 6 MLB’s
T-5 Brian Ulacher
T-5 Bart Scott
4 Jon Beason
3 DeMeco Ryans
2 Ray Lewis
1 Patrick Willis

Tatupu is a real nice player who I like alot. I would grade him out as an A as well, but to say Tatupu is clearly better is a) trolling or b) you are just F:-)’en with me. Both a and b are cool cause you make me laugh. :-)

by etb2 on Jul 25, 2009 4:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Only a raging moron believes in lists like that.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 25, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nope

And hopefully you don’t either. He’s not anymore.

by Brendan Scolari on Jul 25, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

And yet he’s constantly still rated as the best on many lists.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 26, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

And what statistics say that Tatupa is better.

Willis 141 tkls. 10 PD 1int for TD
Tatupa 94 tkls. 4 pd and one INT and tatupa missed one game I highly doubt it would have been a 50 tkl and 6 pd game when he had the numbers he did after 15. So I think you’re looking at the fact Tatupa plays for your favorite team and Willis plays for a division rival. If you want to talk about the team surrounding them the Seagirls were 4-12 niners 7-9

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 26, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's a little ridiculous to break up linebackers into inside and outside anyways

Throughout the course of a game a team changes defenses many times, and inside and outside guys get moved around.

I’d say the niners and seahawks are pretty close inside but I’d say that with Aaron Curry as the next Defensive ROY, Seattle may be the superior team outside. I assume that will discussed in the next post in this suddenly riveting and controversial series.

If I gotta play, I'm gonna play 'till I win,
Since I gotta be here, I can´t wait to begin

by albertoleecho on Jul 24, 2009 8:50 PM PDT reply actions  

May be?

It’s practically certain Seattle is better at OLB.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 24, 2009 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can't deny that.

I’ve put up stats to compare Tatupu and Willis on here before comparing both of their first two seasons. Willis had 88 more tackles and Tatupu had three more Int’s were the only large discrepancy. Both of those can be attributed to scheme Willis job is to acquire more tackles and Tatupu is going to be put in coverage more like Spikes. They are both very good ILB’s.

by Mullester on Jul 25, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 26, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

OMG

Patrick Willis is the best ILB in the NFC and if course the NFC West. Tatupa has a great body of wokr and has more years in, but he could only wish to have the first two seasons of Willis. Willis is probably top three in the league and Tatupa being rated higher than him is obsurd. Sorry Fooch if these are your rankings I must disagree. For a guy who hasn’t missed much playing time, he alone gives the niners the best ILB core, corps, and or soloist

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 25, 2009 6:43 PM PDT reply actions  

And I'm not being optimistic

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 25, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tatupu's first 2 seasons were similar or better than Willis' in most aspects,

aside from tackles (obv), which don’t really matter much when you factor in what piss-poor teammates Willis had on defense. Is he immensely talented? Yes. But he hasn’t done much of anything to warrant a top 3 LB in the league ranking.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Jul 25, 2009 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

And Tatupa has??

No, similar or better?? Wat numbers are you looking at. Tatupa deflected one more pass in his rookie season than Willis and had .5 more sacks. Not to mention Willis set a record for tackles his rookie season. Then you mention the team is not good around him, he still had to make the damn tackle, people miss those you know!!

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 26, 2009 10:38 AM PDT reply actions  

Tatupu's first 2 seasons were similar or better than Willis' in most aspects,

Really
Willis 1st two seasons-315 tkls 5.0 sacks 15 pd adn 1 Int
Tatupa 1st two seasons-226 tkls 5.5 sks 12 pd 4 int’s
Tatupa’s last two seasons-203 tkls 1 sk 13pd 5 int’s

I guess willis run stopping abilities appear to be superior to Tatupa’s. The only statistic Tatupa has better than Willis is Int’s, and in 2007 he had 3 vs AJ Feely (bravo) he also had one in 05 vs Alex Smith (special company stat). I just can’t seem to figure out how this translates into him being more cerebral and superior in any aspect of linebacking. he’s slow undersized and not achieving as much statistically and if its about wins the Seahawks offense had more to do with it than run and pass defense, on top of being in the NFC West with 3 division rivals rebuilding at the same time

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 26, 2009 10:58 AM PDT reply actions  

Obviously

the nunbers put Fear in the Frog

aka Optimist Prime 09...........9ers (site decorum)

by rlott#42 on Jul 27, 2009 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

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