Patrick Willis and our all-time team
by David Fucillo on Aug 3, 2009 11:48 AM PDT
in 49ers All-Time Team
Email
PrintMorning practice should be wrapping up soon (or already wrapped up), meaning Maiocco and Barrows will have reports on what went down. I do know that Patrick Willis sat out the morning practice with a mild ankle strain (not a sprain). We'll try and get more up later.
In the meantime, rather than roll out a new poll for the all-time team, I wanted to get people's insight on an issue I've been thinking about since first rolling out the re-vote. And it happens to deal with Patrick Willis. We'll be rolling out our vote for inside linebacker at some point soon and Patrick Willis has certainly made a name for himself in 49ers history in a very short time.
The question is whether he should be included on the ballot. Personally, I'm leaning towards no. I do think he deserves acknowledgment, but I also think if included, he'd get a ton of votes as the proverbial flavor of the month. I do think when all is said and done he'll go down as one of the greatest, if not THE greatest linebacker in 49ers history. However, with only two seasons under his belt, I don't know if now is the time to include him as a ballot option.
Our previous winners at ILB #1 and #2 were Ken Norton, Jr. and Gary Plummer. Norton spent seven seasons with the 49ers and Plummer spent four seasons here. Not exactly a huge number of years. And yet I still lean towards keeping Willis off.
So, I'd like to hear what people think about this. I may add a poll, but for now I'm curious if anybody can articulate a good reason beyond the fact that we all think he's awesome. Particularly as compared to the original ballot.
97 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Patrick Willis
He could not get another sack for the next 5 years and still have the same sacks/year as KN and more than GP. He led the league in Tackles in 2007(and got the MOST ever since tackles have been tracked since 2001) and was #2 in 2008.
But, I also think he needs one more year so that any doubters out there will be on the band wagon as well. I would (and in my mind already have) put him in there as one of the 2 all timers since no one else out there has had 2 seasons in a row ANYWHERE in their career as good as his have been.
by 9erEast on Aug 3, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
ILBs are not usually given the responsibility of pass-rushing.
And it’s debatable whether tackles are a relevant stat at all when judging player performance.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 3, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Stop percentage, defeats, stuffs, an average of how close tackles were to the line of scrimmage, that sort of thing.
If you look at WIllis’ 2007 rookie season in terms of that, most of it was wholly average, the only exception being an extraordinarily high tackle count, which I suppose you could chalk up to most tackles being funneled his way and the defense being on the field an unusual amount of time.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 4, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Having Derek Smith....
… next to you helps a lot, too.
Gary Plummer vs. Patrick Willis
Plummer 4 years 237 tackles, 1 sack, 0 Int, 0 TDs, 0 Pro Bowls
Willis 2 years 315 tackles, 5 sacks, 1 Int, 1 TD, 2 Pro bowls
Hmmmmm, tough choice.
Go down further. I was having a debate w/ Drummer.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Sure,...
And he’ll learn why Plummer didn’t put up those kinds of numbers in SF.
Really, really, really really………………..
simple.
Well, we're waiting....
Sorry pal.
Plummer couldn’t do in his career what Willis has done in 2 years. Thats simple too. If Plummer was so great on the 9ers he woud’ve been making probowls just like everyone else on that defense.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
According to
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumGa20.htm Plummer only played two seasons of inside linebacker for the niners. Also look at his numbers, not one season with the niners over 60 tackles. Willis already has more sacks in 2 years than Plummer had in 10.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NortKe00.htm Norton only had 3 seasons as inside linebacker and only one season over 100 tackles (he had 106) with the niners. In his 7 years with the niners, he only had 5.5 sacks, Willis has 5 in two years. Norton’s best seasons came as a Cowboy, do we want a player whose best years were with the cowboys on our all time team?
Finnally, to be young is not a sin, to be old is not an accomplishment. Give the man the goddamn credit he deserves.
by passionforPERPS on Aug 3, 2009 12:44 PM PDT reply actions
this isnt necesssarily directed at you,
but a lot of people love to idealize the past and discount the present. If all three played on the same team, not in their prime but in the condition they were in when they were on the niners, I ask you who would be the starter? Its that simple.
by passionforPERPS on Aug 3, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not "idealalizing the past"...
It’s more about the defense as a whole. The 49ers then had a pretty fierce pass rush, a solid LB corp, and a standout backfield. You have that defense now as it was then, and Willis isn’t as important as he is now.
Pretty simple.
Well, we're waiting....
This.
Not saying that Norton or Plummer are definitely better than Willis, but if there’s one person that benefits from a stronger defensive line (especially on the interior), it’ll be the MLB/ILB.
dont quote something if youre not gonna get it right.
by passionforPERPS on Aug 9, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
and i would understand the argument he only played two seasons for us if he was a fa acquisition or came over in a trade but we drafted him, hes as true a niner as anyone.
by passionforPERPS on Aug 3, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Plummer did have The HIT
Do you guys rememember the hit and fumble at the goaline for a defensive touchdown? the greatest defensive play i have ever seen
Anybody have video of this hit?
None on youtube from what I can see. I think I remember the hit but it is vague…trying hard to recollect the details. Would love to see it again.
yeah, when I'm feeling down about the Niners
I just think about Buffalo and smile.
and up rode a camargue horse named Victory, upon the magnificent beast sat a triumphant rider, that rider's name: Noodle Arm.
by jfainsf49 on Aug 3, 2009 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
P WILLY
Well this is a hard one IMO…i mean the stats alone would say he is a shoe in but i agree i would like someone who has been playing maybe 4 years for the team….imo willis just needs to ride it out then he would easily be the best at this position….but until that time comes i give it to norton…he was awesome….he had a good supporting cast around him to so its harder to get the numbers like PWilly when P Willy is just everywhere …he is a beast but needs 2 years for all time greatest ( but skill whise he is there allready)
Have we figured out...
How the Polls are skewed yet here? The “Nedney Factor” should clue us in.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Aug 3, 2009 1:14 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
In this case, it might be justified.
But I’d still love to see All-Time TE with Vernon Davis and see how quickly people can forget Brent Jones.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 3, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
WHAT!! Who can possibly forget about BRENT JONES?! I still own his NFL football card. People always identify with current players’ achievements. Sides, Vernon Davis still has a lot of work to do to catch up to Jones.
Oddly enough, I also have a Brent Jones football card.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 3, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Adding Willis to the poll...
Is superfluous. When you have an anemic offense combined with a mediocre defense, one talented player will stand out, and a lot of that has to do with the aforementioned offense and defense.
It’s just one more useless poll that is only good for fans scratching their claws against a post.
Well, we're waiting....
Thy shall not forget Brent, ever:
The man was a gazelle.
and up rode a camargue horse named Victory, upon the magnificent beast sat a triumphant rider, that rider's name: Noodle Arm.
by jfainsf49 on Aug 3, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Brent Jones?
Sure he’s the pick if you just go by who was the best TE, but if you factor in mustaches than Russ Francis is they guy. Factor in alter-egos and I’m going with Jamie Williams. Than again if you always vote for the guy who kicked LTs ass (literally) than you gotta go with John Frank:
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2007/10/24/random-youtube-magic-lawrence-taylor-dances-with-john-frank/
Put Patrick in!
Barring some unforeseen injury, this guy will be the anchor of the D for 10 years+. I say add him to the poll.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Because I’m already convinced he is better than Norton Jr. and Plummer who won the poll last time.
Even though you make the argument his statistics are inflated because of the 49ers situation, bad offense, mediocre defense. He’s producing better numbers than any ILB previously in a similar situation.
So...
You’re gonna have him above those 2, even though he has never played in a post-season game? Let’s not forget, he is also playing in the NFCW, which for the past 2 years has been horrid, and last year’s sched was pretty easy. Of course his numbers are stellar. But he hasn’t played a post season game. Even Fudgehammer played in the post season.
Well, we're waiting....
The playoff argument is somewhat compelling to me. I’m about to grant you it but I cannot recall a single Tony Romo version at LB. I don’t think Willis would struggle in the playoffs.
The NFC West has always been called a weak, one legged dog of a division so that wouldn’t be fair to punish Willis while not punishing everyone else.
I guess you should know that I would probably vote for some other LB based on memorable playoff moments over Norton Jr, Plummer and Willis. However since Norton Jr and Plummer one the last poll (gulp) I’m convinced the Nedney factor is already wreaking havoc.
I have to factor that in...
Willis is a stellar player, and he does a lot because he really doesn’t have much around him as far as near his level of talent. I’m not punishing Willis for the lack of competition from opposition, but both Norton and Plummer played against some of the best teams during that era, and dominated the weaker teams. I factor in post season because when the 49ers played the Cowboys in the regular season, that game meant something, and meant even more when they faced them in the post season.
Willis hasn’t had that opportunity yet, and I’m with you that he will play well when he does. The thing is, when will he have the opportunity, and just how long can he hold up if he has to replicate his past 2 years for 2 more, with no dominant defensive line like Norton and Woodall had?
Well, we're waiting....
The NFC may be called weak but....
people forget quickly that 4 out of the last 10 Super Bowls have had 3 teams out of the NFC West participate. 3 of which were close games and the other(Seahawks), well… I’ll say no more other than the refs needed kneepads for how much they blew that game.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
But the last 2 season's are what's relevant here...
Despite AZ going into the SB with a 9-7 regular season record.
Well, we're waiting....
It doesn't matter
I’ll be the first one to agree with you on the Cards being lame at 9-7 but they still went to the Super Bowl. In 4 seasons, 2 NFC West teams have still gone to the dance. The division is atleast strong enough to send competitors to the SB.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Have you looked at the Division the past few seasons?...
Only one team has had double digits in the W column since 2004, and that team is SEA. AZ has floated at around one game above or below .500. The other 2 are below .500, some with abysmal records, like the 49ers of 2004.
That isn’t a “strong enough” division as a whole. When you can send a 9-7 team into the playoffs as the division winner should tell you that.
Well, we're waiting....
They still went to the Super Bowl.
Intangibles. Thats why a crap 9-7 team can go to the Super Bowl. I have looked at the division the last few years and I agree with you on the stats thats not refutable. But things have gone right enough that when it comes to the SB, our division is the one of the most successful at making it to the dance.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Making it to the Super Bowl is more important than stats
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
I can see..
From this point forward that you will cling on to blanket generalizations without trying look at reality. There is no point in trying to help you get the point.
Well, we're waiting....
This.
And even the Seahawks of recent seasons weren’t especially dominant, they just beat up on the NFCW and some of the weaker opponents on the schedule. The 2005 SB team was great, but seriously, they faced some exceedingly poor rush-defenses and they beat up on a very oddly weak NFC.
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 4, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Not a blanket statement.
I do get the point. But you are not looking at intangibles. I told you that I agreed with you on the stats so I get your point. The stats are not refutable! The fact of the matter is that the NFC West as a whole is not dominant but is strong enough to send teams to the Super Bowl. Thats more than can be said for the NFC South and NFC North who have had 2 teams(Panthers and Bears) out of both divisions in the last 10 years make it to the dance.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
But that doesn't make the Division strong..
There is no “intangible” here. I don’t know why you are trying to shoehorn that in without explaining it. One thing that all those teams had in common was that they all ranked in the top 3 on offense those years. Does beating up poor teams in the division help that?
But to reset: we’re talking about the past 2 years, and Willis.
Well, we're waiting....
True
Just one point on that. There obviously is some sort of intangible that has the teams out of the lame NFC West making the Super Bowl that’s all I’m saying. If teams are making it to the SB out of the Division regularly which I feel that is the case, then the division must not be that horrible. Records at the end of the season would say otherwise but teams are making it out of the division through the playoffs and into the SB quite frequently.
On to Willis. I feel that he should be on the list. Barring injury, there is nothing that will slow this guy down. And if he fails we could always revote lol.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Only 1 NFCW team..
Has won the SB since the 49ers (who used to beat up on the poor NFCW too). That team is now is the cellar. SEA was the most consistent team in the positive (as opposed the AZ being consistently mediocre, and the 49ers being consistently bad), and playing in the NFCW helps them. What you’re missing here is that despite those teams reaching the SB, the division is still poor. It’s not like the NFCW is producing SB teams.
Well, we're waiting....
I'm not missing anything
I said the NFC West was lame. But something is working if you have 3 different teams go to the SB 4 times in 10 years(They still made it eventhough they lost). I understand your argument I do.
One thing I was thinking though is that if you’re going to use the NFC West being crap as a reason to not have Willis on the list then a person could make the argument that some of the 9ers greats really weren’t that great because the other divisional teams sucked horribly then. Just saying…
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Now you're twisting this...
The comparison is between 49er players. I’m putting up the argument, and carefully read this, that putting in Willis to compare to Norton without considering the playoffs, and things like Home Field Advantage etc., is disingenuous and makes the poll a popularity contest. I’ve also posted on how the 49ers with Norton and Plummer have dominated the lesser teams.
The 49ers with Willis and nobody else haven’t dominated anybody. Well, maybe save the Lions.
Well, we're waiting....
It depends how you rate the strength of the division
Do you rate the division by the strength of all teams combined or do you rate the division by the strength of the elite team?
You still have to play no matter how crappy the division is.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Incase you missed it...
some of the poles unfortunately are popularity contests otherwise TO would be our number 2 receiver and Cedric Hardman would have to be on the All-Time defensive line.
To compare players right now I firmly believe that barring injury Willis is 100 times better than Norton and Plummer and I loved those guys too.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Well, post a reason why..
You think he is better. Post several. That’s the point. A poll ain’t gonna prove anything.
Well, we're waiting....
If a poll doesn't prove anything then why do we do it?
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
The poll is already up..
The point of this thread is to help Fooch determine why he should revise it for Willis.
Well, we're waiting....
Ok
Gary Plummer was only w/ the team for 4 years.
Having Gary Plummer on the list should merit putting Willis on the list considering he only has 2 years on Willis w/ the 9ers and Willis has had more of an impact on this team than Plummer did.
Willis has 315 Tak. 244 Solo Tak. 5 Sacks 1 Int. 1 TD in 2 years w/ the team.
Plummer in his 4 years w/ the 9ers had 205 Tak. 1.5 Sacks 1int.
If you have Plummer up for vote then you should have Willis.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Willis' stats..
Have been posted. There is a point out there about the team defense that Norton and Plummer were on.
Go scroll around this thread a bit.
Well, we're waiting....
I did look around
Thats why I didn’t mention it. Sorry. Just because Willis has been on a weak team doesn’t mean he isn’t that great of a player. There is a reason why NFL Network ranked him the number 1 best ILB in the league.
He stands out.
Although he was on a good team, Plummer averaged only 50 Tak. a year with the team. I really do like Gary Plummer but Willis should not be overlooked.
Willis for 09’
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Jeez
Just look at it simply this way:
Plummer had guys like Bryant Young, Dana Stubblefield, and Ken Norton (among others) “stealing” tackles away from him. Willis has no such “luxuries”.
Agreed
Willis still had to make all of the tackles on his own. You think Gary Plummer could have put up those type of number on a crap team? I think not.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Are we not talking about time w/ the 9ers?
If we aren’t then ofcourse Plummer should be on there and Willis not.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
If that's the case...
Then Deion only having 1 year w/ the 9ers earning Defensive Player of the Year honors should be good to have on the voting for 9ers best DB.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
Sorry maybe I misunderstood you...
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
.....
If you are going to compare careers then Plummer wins. If you are going to compare time w/ the 9ers I think it’s pretty even.
The 9ers have been mediocre to suck w/ Willis on the team so he had to do the work on his own not to mention shut out A. Peterson. Plummer could not do what Willis has done on a crap team. On the crap Chargers teams that he put good numbers on(4 years in a row w/ 100+ tackles); compared to the 2 years Willis has had, only 1 year of Plummers w/ 146 comes close to either of Willis’ 2 years.
He is faster and more versitile than Plummer and has better stats than Plummer comparing time w/ the 9ers.
I don’t care if the team sucked or not, someone still has to do the job.
Like I said earlier, popularity is a big thing in these polls wether you like it or not. Otherwise Hardman and TO would be on the All-Time roster.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
The point I was making..
Was how many less tackles Plummer had to make because he just another talented player on a stellar defense.
Well, we're waiting....
And I acknowledged that..
but then I went on to say to that was the fact that Plummer only matched Willis Stats once while playing on horrible Chargers teams. Plummer would not be able to do what Willis has done.
Fans stuck in the 80's are lame. Respect the past, live in the now.
i'd take willis's 2 years so far
over anyone who ever spent 4 years with the team. put him on the ballot.
I take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.
I know I run a risk of being tackled for saying this...
but I think the duo of Ken Norton Jr., and Gary Plummer’s mustache could take Willis. So yeah, no Willis, not yet.
and up rode a camargue horse named Victory, upon the magnificent beast sat a triumphant rider, that rider's name: Noodle Arm.
I had a similar thought myself
Frank Gore was included in the running back position. It’s fine for the guys to be on the ballot and all, but in my opinion no active player should earn the honor just yet, I don’t know, maybe it’s just me.
and up rode a camargue horse named Victory, upon the magnificent beast sat a triumphant rider, that rider's name: Noodle Arm.
Put him on the ballot. If it comes down to Plummer, Norton, and Willis, we’ll vote on it. Leaving Willis off in favor of the other MLBs is kind of a disgrace to Willis.
"We want WINNERS!" - Coach Singletary
Maybe..
But the “Nedney Factor” can come into play, thus diluting the credibility of any poll. A poll is useless. Like Fooch asked:
I’m curious if anybody can articulate a good reason
You posted a good reason for the fact that he should be in the discussion. But a poll isn’t going to define anything, because this thread hasn’t given much discussion of why he should be in the discussion. Maybe after this season, you bring up the topic again. It goes the other way too. Putting a 2 year player who never went to the playoffs against a another with more seasons with the team under his belt, including playoffs, could be unfair to Willis.
A poll with Willis in it isn’t gonna prove anything outside of the fact that there are a lot of Willis fans who vote for him because they are fans of the best player on the 49er defense right now. That really isn’t saying much, considering Norton won 2 Super Bowls with a stellar defense prior to the 49ers. Charles Haley won Super Bowls before he went to the Cowboys. I just can’t put those players above another and call them “All Time” whose team has never been where those guys have, and has never been on a team above .500 football. Willis has to make a lot of plays because the team defense sucks overall. That’s awesome on how he does it. But that isn’t on the bigger stage. The playoffs and beyond. If he replicates last season, then by all means, he deserves to be in the discussion, even if the 49ers don’t make the playoffs.
But hey, make a poll on how he should go to Canton already while we are at it. The Nedney Factor already has proven polls don’t really matter here, because anybody can vote on them without having to explain why. That really proves a lot, don’t it?
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Aug 3, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
If you leave Willis off
I think all the poll will prove is who is the All Time ILB until Willis is eligible to be voted on.
That's the word...
“Eligible”.
Now, Nedney was eligible for discussion because he was on the team for more than 2 years when it came to voting. Even though he hasn’t been to the post season with the 49ers. Look at the results.
I think it was swayed with “I know he likes kicking those balls” from the video (which I found on FBG Fooch).
Well, we're waiting....
shows how much attention I pay
I just realized Nedney was on the all time team, I think we might have a legitmate controversy on our hands. I mean, one could even argue that kickers don’t even count as part of the team. I move to have Nedney stricken from the all time team.
and up rode a camargue horse named Victory, upon the magnificent beast sat a triumphant rider, that rider's name: Noodle Arm.
Well the point is..
Is Fooch want’s real opinions why Willis should be included. My guess is he is, like a good host should do, listening to the fans here. Now, what we have to do is give reason why. What I get from this blog is that Fooch puts out stuff that makes us think. He encourages and recruits opinion from everywhere, including yours. You are just as important as anyone who writes here. But you have to do the work. That’s what will make this the best 49er fan blog on the internet. I hate these polls because they are arbitrary and not based in true reason. It’s point and click on “whose hottest”. Yet, Fooch recognizes this, thus this article.
Well, we're waiting....
understood
and up rode a camargue horse named Victory, upon the magnificent beast sat a triumphant rider, that rider's name: Noodle Arm.
I love the idea ...
… that you’re going to not put someone in the vote because you’re concerned that people might vote for that option and it is not the option you think is correct. That’s very Iranian of you, Fooch. You are the Supreme Leader of the Niners Nation. Therefore the way I see this playing out is: Fooch includes Willis, just to appease those who say they want to vote for him, Willis’s votes are mysteriously not counted, and Norton or Plummer win out. Willis’s supporters then rush into the streets to protest against Fooch. My big worry here, is that I might be the only one protesting in London, and my friends and colleagues might think me a little odd.
by LondonNiner on Aug 4, 2009 12:21 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
The Twitter factor...
Fooch already has this in play, thus he is ahead of the Iranians.
Well, we're waiting....
Rec'd
Anybody who can legitimately compare me to the Ayatollah deserves to be Rec’d.
by David Fucillo on Aug 4, 2009 5:24 AM PDT up reply actions
your comment
is green just like Irans color of protest. How fitting.
by passionforPERPS on Aug 9, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Niners Nation
Related FanShots on Niners Nation
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Giants to be honored with commemorative NY license plate; some would rather see a 9/11 plate
- The hidden play of Super Bowl XLVI: Justin Tuck’s third-quarter sack
- Report: Chad Ochocinco will become Chad Johnson once again
- Video: Bill Belichick implores his defense to make the Giants throw to Mario Manningham
- Training Day: Learning the 40 with an Olympian
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
