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2008 sack totals and the Martz effect on the 49ers offensive line

This morning's discussion about the right tackle position has taken some interesting twists and turns.  However, there is one aspect of it that I'd like to pull out for discussion.  In reality it might be better as a statistical discussion, but I just wanted to at least get the ball rolling...or at least push it further along.

There were two specific comments I wanted to point to.  If you had your own comments that I overlooked in the thread I apologize.  The discussion moved towards the fact that the sacks allowed number should go down due to several reasons.  I've edited a little bit for brevity:

sfgfan

Quoting MontanaPass: "And simply assuming Snyder will be better this year because he beat out a crippled M. Smith is not a sound strategy."

That’s not the only part of people’s assumption that the sack numbers will improve. Snyder may or may not be better, but this year’s offense is designed with a lot less of those 7-step drops that are a Martz staple. I think that alone should account for a significant reduction in sacks, but only time will tell . . .

Response from SpurredOn

I’ll add that any time we discuss sack totals from last year, it would be better to discuss the final 8 games instead of the full season. The style of offense at the end of the season more reflects what we’ll see all this year, with still fewer seven step drops. Also, Hill was the QB during that time instead of JTO who often held the ball way too long (to say nothing of having poor pocket presense to back-side pressure, thus the fumbles) . . .

Folks constantly throw out that 55 sack number like it's gospel, and yet I strongly believe we have to put a lot more context into the situation.  As howtheyscored's signature states: "Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong."

I realize this does not automatically make blah offensive linemen good.  But maybe it should alter perception a little bit when it comes criticizing offensive linemen.  The offensive line has not played with all 5 starters at this point so I'm curious to see what happens when Baas and Snyder get back into the lineup.  Does that change anybody's thoughts at all, or are you convinced it doesn't matter (the Martz effect and the Baas injury most of the month, as well as Snyder's injury this past week)?

Poll
How many sacks will the 49ers give up in 2009?
0-10
12 votes
11-20
59 votes
21-30
186 votes
31-40
249 votes
41-50
59 votes
51+
34 votes

599 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 96 comments |

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My theory

My theory of Niner improvement from last year to this year hinges not so much on improvement of talent (although that’s happening) but on the coaching. That’s why some prognosticators, like those at Football Outsiders, aren’t to be fully trusted.

Blocking for a seven-step drop will give you different results (and stats) than blocking for an off-tackle handoff or a quick slant after a two-step drop. The reason why no one scooped up Mike Martz to run their offense after Singletary fired him is because his theory of offense doesn’t work anymore. Even when it worked Warner was beaten to a pulp. Believe me, the rest of the league paid attention to JTO ending up prone and how less than elite Niners pass receivers functioned in the Martz system. The fact that JT O’Sullivan has been playing somewhat more effectively for the Bengals in preseason is not so much a result of how much more talent he has this year but rather what a bad scheme Martz’s offense was.

That is, Nolan would have won more games last year if he had only hired an offensive coordinator that ran a normal offense, all other things being equal.

There is no doubt in my mind that the offensive line will be improved from last year (if Snyder is healthy), and that along with a better run game should result in much fewer sacks. I would feel better if I had more confidence in the passing game itself (which we hopefully haven’t really seen much of) but I think the sack won’t be as much of a drive killer as last year.

On the same theory (although not as dramatic) I expect the Niner defense to be improved because Nolan is no longer interfering with them and inserting overly complicated and ultimately ineffective schemes. How many times did the defense have to call a time out to get the right package on the field? Terrible.

My two cents.

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 4:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

From what I've seen..

Singletary has shown a bit more Nolan in him (clock management anybody?), and Raye shows a little Hostler in him as well.

If you can’t pass the ball, then it’s harder to run the ball. I don’t see the 49ers O-line Hogs at this point.

Maybe FO sees that.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

where's the ball?

I see a desire to get the ball out of the QB’s hand asap: hand to the RB, throw in 3 seconds to tight end/FB, use taser, whatever. Which means the line isn’t improving as much as the capacity for the line to allow a sack is diminishing. I don’t expect much long ball and testing of the line’s resilience. Another reason why Hill got the nod; that’s what he does. I’m not knocking it (but I do think it is wrong to not try and trade for a high quality tackle, rather than pick up cast offs, which is merely window dressing) as the anti-Martz era continues.

by Vertigo on Aug 31, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

rec'd you

I agree completely. I’m starting to get a little scared that Sing is a little Nolanesque (kicking FG in preseason game) cmon Sing, teach your kids how to WIN when they need to. And I’m a little nervous about Raye being BORING and unimaginative. I mean how long can you run before a team throws 10 people in the box.

by hudd07 on Aug 31, 2009 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's pre-season for Singletary too..

I don’t have a problem with he using regular season strategy in a pre-season game. He needs to do that, since this is his first real season as a HC. But clock management is still an issue. But he can work it out during the pre-season.

Maiocco should have something on that after being on Razor and T, where they addressed those issues.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just because San Fran had absurdly mis-matched personnel doesn't mean that Martz's system doesn't work anymore.

Jon Kitna was a back to back 4k yard passer with him on friggin’ Detroit of all places.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Aug 31, 2009 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, that's true.

I didn’t say the system doesn’t work anymore anymore. I said the team is going to the other side of the offensive spectrum, it would appear. The system worked for the “greatest show on turf” and a superbowl. But I wouldn’t admit either the system has a significant legacy, for the very reason it requires specialized personnel. Ok?

by Vertigo on Aug 31, 2009 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

GSOT..

Gave up a lot of sacks and TO’s, but they could overcome that. Warner got sacked 38 times and picked off 22 times, and they still represented the NFC in the Super Bowl.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd have to add

1999 wasn’t exactly a stellar year for the NFL. Besides the NFC West being completely in the crapper, Steve Young’s career ends as does the Cowboys’ run and Holmgren moved to the AFC. All three NFC heavyweights for the decade go down at the same time. No disrespect to St. Louis and Martz, but that team and system didn’t exactly stand the test of time.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Aug 31, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The year those stats represent..

is 2001.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh

The Super Bowl loss. Fair enough.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Aug 31, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They were 14-2 that season too..

and were killing teams with that offense.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to split hairs

But I think you might agree that a huge part of that 14-2 record was Lovie Smith’s one season as D-Coordinator. The year before they were 10-6, the following year 7-9. All those sacks and turnovers catch up to a team.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Aug 31, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They lost a few players..

Since the 2001 team, and the FO and Martz didn’t help themselves with dratfs and FA’s. Still after going 7-9, and with a mediocre defense, the went 12-4, and 8-8, both division winning years. That has a lot do to with Martz’s offense.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

8-8 was a wild card year… but yes, Faulk made that system run, all due respect to Warner, as they also won with Bulger but Faulk was the true mismatch for everyone.

I’m just not a Martz guy. For all the talent they should’ve moved the ball and yet he never won a SB as a head coach. I think his system is much like the run-n-shoot. It looks great, builds up stats and always has an excuse why it didn’t win the ultimate game but it’s too flawed to hold up over 16+ games.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Aug 31, 2009 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I stand corrected..

On the 8-8 season. I’m not a Martz guy either, and as soon as Nolan hired him, I knew it would turn out to be disastrous for him. But I’m not gonna blame the season on him either. The probelm with the 49ers is that they keep screwing around on offense. You install an offense in year 1, and you should be running it year 3. The sack totals have been bad since 2004. Turner’s offense had fewer, but they also had an easy sched that year that helped. He even had to scale back a bit.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's see how Martz's offense does this year...

Oh, no one wanted him as an offensive coordinator?

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come on

Martz can be a great coordinator in the right situation, although he was a terrible fit with the Niners. No one wanted Mariucci either, does that mean he was a bad coach?

by Brendan Scolari on Sep 1, 2009 2:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, actually

Bad coach? No. But a good pro coach? Also no, for my money. He should’ve gone back to college where his caring, rah-rah style works better. I think the 2000-2002 teams had a bit more talent than given credit. That they only one won playoff game, by 1 point in agreat Garcia/Owens comeback, says a lot. That Mooch never won after moving on, says the rest.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Sep 1, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well he was with the Lions

That was an awful situation, at the very minimum. I’m not saying he’s a great coach, but he’s better than some guys in the league.

by Brendan Scolari on Sep 1, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jon Kitna's record in 2006-7

In 2006 the Lions were 3-13. Kitna passed for 4,208 yards, 21 TDs, 22 interceptions, 63 sacks. He lost 9 of 11 fumbles.

In 2007 the Lions were a surprising 7-9. Kitna passed for 4,068 yards, 18 TDs, 20 interceptions, 51 sacks. He lost only 6 of his 17 fumbles, which says that Kitna got better at anticipating the bounce of his fumbles off the artificial turf.

So last year’s 55 sacks under Martz is right in the middle of what Kitna suffered in ‘06 and ’07. It probably would have been worse if Singletary didn’t reign in the offense when he took over.

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hill had 26 sacks last season

and 4 of them came in the last Ram game against one of the worst defenses in the NFL.

Let’s not forget, the 49ers gave up 55 the previous season, 35 the season prior, 48 prior to that, 52 in Erickson’s last season. The year before when they had good players? 28.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And who was the Offensive Coordinator last year?

Come on, drummer, are you trying to prove my point?

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm saying..

The sack totals have been horrid for years. That comes from teams being bad in a lot of areas. What I was pointing out with Hill is that Martz didn’t scale back as much as everybody thought. Hill just checked down in his offense. Hill was awful that game too. But Hill has done a lot more in that offense than he ever had in any other.

My guess this year is that 49ers will still have to throw the ball more, like around + 50%. The success of the offense will still be the pass. If they’re not successful doing that, then it could be 2007 all over again.

That’s my 2 cents.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many teams throw less than 50% of the time?

I mean, in the modern era.

By eliminating a real blocking back the running game for the Niners was much less effective last year. I’ll presume that Martz had the say over whether or not to have a true fullback. From my admittedly faulty memory I think the average per carry was down .5 to 1 yard for each back.

Short, quick passes will cut down sacks. So will the threat of a running game. Whether or not Hill succeeds this year, or whatever happens this year, the unknown of the future does not cancel out Martz’s strategic failures last year.

The Roman Empire was great but you don’t see Italy invading many countries these days.

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was using a medium baseline..

due the the 49ers maybe being more conservative in pass vs. run. I could have said 70%, but I don’t see that happening. I guess what I was really trying to say is that they won’t throw for huge yardage. Everything will be predicated on short passes and YAC.

One thing Martz did was improve a lot of technique on the skill positions. He can coach offense. Oddly enough, the odd man out was Battle with Martz around, and now he looks to be the #2 WR this season.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not many I could imagine

I think MOST teams throw 60-70% of the time. Minus the few Titans, Steelers (even though they are throwing more). I bet we will be close to 50%.

I’m honestly afraid this is 2007 all over again minus Davis having a couple more yards receiving.

by hudd07 on Aug 31, 2009 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm looking at it as less on the QB...

and more on the execution of where the true depth of the offense lies, which is the run game, screens, middle, etc. I like the sweeps. I love sweeps. It’s been a while since we’ve seen them here in SF, when the 49ers with Watters ran perfect sweeps. If they had run them since then, I never saw them.

The 49er QB’s are less than suspect. Kerry Collins has way more experience in a lot of situations than Hill. The Titans have the benefit of a HC who is one of the best. He has had good offenses, whether they can pass it, or run it.

The 49ers whiffed on Schwartz. But even he would have needed a true GM. Everything we see now is predicated on irrational decisions by ownership. If Singletary can be the next Jeff Fisher, then the 49ers could be in good shape.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Sep 1, 2009 12:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

winning teams

If memory serves, Super Bowl champs ‘07 Giants and ’05 Steelers all ran more than they threw, somewhere around 55/45 run to pass. Last year’s Ravens and Titans also ran more than throw. That’s not uncommon for teams that either have a top level RB (AP in Minnesota) solid defense (see Ravens and Titans) or spend most of their time in the lead. If you run more you almost always have a winning record. Teams that throw-run close to 60/40 might have a great QB but tend to have more turnovers, struggle in bad weather and are more likely to be trailing late in the game, thus more losses. It’s like those end of the Sunday stats where the majority of RBs with a 100 yard game win but the majority of QBs with a 300+ yard game lose.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Sep 1, 2009 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Teams that can pass the ball win too...

Running the ball isn’t a trend here. You can run the ball when you can run the ball. When you can run the ball against defense that can stop the run?

Just because the 49er say they will focus on the run does not mean it will balance out a lot of other weaknesses like coaching, QB’s, etc. The only way you can have a strong rushing offense is to have a stronger defense.

GINTS\PIT as compared to SF?

I’ll take “What was he smoking Alex for $50..”

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Sep 1, 2009 2:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where did you read comparison?

The question was how many teams throw less than 50% of the time. My answer covers that, not this year’s Niners. Perhaps you’re smoking…

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Sep 1, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s like those end of the Sunday stats where the majority of RBs with a 100 yard game win but the majority of QBs with a 300+ yard game lose.

It sounds like your confusing correlation with causation. Teams that put up great running totals end up with better records, that is true. However, the reason they are running more is because they have the lead and are trying to run out the clock. Teams with higher passing totals tend to be teams that are behind and are passing more to catch up. But in general passing ability is much more important when it comes to winning football games.

by Brendan Scolari on Sep 1, 2009 3:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your point

Is what I said. If not clear, my apologies.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Sep 1, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Until they prove they can protect a QB,

we have to assume they they will be the same. Even against vanilla defensive schemes in preseason games, the O-line first team is giving up too many sacks. What’s worse is that the defenses of Oakland and Denver are lower tier units. I understand the hope that there will be fewer sacks because the seven step drops will be largely decreased, but all indicators are that they will give up more than 50 sacks…again. The only reason that I could see that they won;t is that they will run much more often, so opposing defenses will have fewer opportunities to get a sack.

by 49er Mancub on Aug 31, 2009 4:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not sure

I’d like to challenge your statement, “Even against vanilla defensive schemes in preseason games, the O-line first team is giving up too many sacks” – I recall three sacks surrendered vs Denver. One was a blitzer who ran over FB Keasy. The other two were both on the QB (one each Hill, Smith) holding the ball too long (and they admitted so). I’m not saying they’ve arrived but none of those are on the line. O-Lineman can’t block forever just like DBs can’t cover forever.

I recall Smith getting sacked on a Raider blitz but everyting else that I recall from that game were running plays down Oakland’s throat.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Aug 31, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There will be some improvement

With Synder playing full time that in itself will improve the RT position (21 sacks last year). Also a new OL coach ( Forester ) will help as well. I might be able to explain why ‘07’ and ‘08’ was the same.
1) Nolan and 6 OCs
2) same OL coach or lack of.
3) QBs until Sing and Hill took over.( 23 in 8 1/2 games)
4) lousy work/practice.
5) predictablilty
 I sure there other reasons you all can think of, but theses are same goods one.

by LASVEGASNINER on Aug 31, 2009 4:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

What happens with V. Davis split out more?

One of the reasons I’m not sold on just assuming Snyder will be better just because he’s playing the position regularly is the change in scheme. Last year, under the Martz scheme, Davis was held in to block and pass protect much of the time. I think that was Martz’ way of compensating for all the 7-step drops – more blockers. Yet under that scheme there were 20 sacks attributed to the RT position. And Martz ran the offense the entire year despite the change in QB after the first half of the season, so VD was kept in to help block the entire season.

So what happens this year when/if V. Davis is used more as a receiver than blocker? The RT will be under even more pressure, with only a RB to help out, maybe. You can bet money defensive coordinators will be game planning to exploit that position until Snyder proves he can handle the pressure. Hill can take mostly 3 and 5-step drops and have the clock in his head, and that will help, but will it be enough? We don’t know yet, and the OL hasn’t exactly excelled at pass pro so far this preseason (see Dallas). And Snyder is untested under real game conditions with real blitzing and stunting. And that’s why I’m not making the assumption that Snyder will be so much better that we can take it for granted that the position will be fine. I don’t know if most of Snyder and Sims’ sacks came in just a few games or was evenly distributed over the season, so that information could make a difference – I’m making the assumption that the sacks were relatively evenly distributed over the time each player was on the field.

Please understand that I do not think Snyder is a bad player or cannot do the job. In fact, I am hoping he works out just fine and we have zero problems with pass pro on the right. I just think that, given the situation with Marvel Smith where there was no real competition, he hasn’t proven a thing yet except that the coaches are behind him. And that’s why “just assuming Snyder will be better isn’t a sound strategy.” This RT situation was created by Scott McCloughan and nobody else, and I hope he has the wisdom to admit an mistake and address it decisively before the season starts.

by MontanaPass on Sep 1, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

specifics don't need to be broken down...

Although we might have less sacks this year than last, the result still looks the same… OUR O-LINE can’t even stop themselves from falling apart. They looked horrible against the cowboys. Granted, Hill was making some aweful looking throws, but even a half a second longer would seem like an eternity. The defense is getting to the QB too quickly, and almost in a straight line and Hill is not mobile enough to handle it. I just hope he can stay healthy to finish the season, I never want to see alex smith throw a pass for us ever again. I think we need to sign another RT pronto!

by mon_deezy on Aug 31, 2009 5:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree with Spurred On above.

I haven’t seen sacks on the O-line in the preseason. I’m not as worried about the O-line as I am with the defensive pass rush.

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two that I know of..

One was by admission Hills fault for not getting the ball off in time. Took to long.. the other was due to our good friend Keasly who is no longer with us.. There as been a lot of pressure making for a number of “hurried” throws.

by WC-Ninerhead on Aug 31, 2009 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So many factors

My guess is they give up 35 again, same as 2006 (thx drummer for looking that up). That’s almost exactly an average of 2 per game. Some games more (@ Philly, @ Indy) and perhaps some none (vs STL, vs Jax). That was also the season where the running game was solid and the priority, and I think the overall talent on offense is better than then (even if Raye is not as good as Norv).

Talent and scheme are the biggest factors. IMO, the O-line talent is better than average at all positions with potential for Rachal to grow and immediate Pro-Bowl potential with Staley and Heitmann. Scheme will help with shorter drops, quicker passes and more run plays. The focus on the run will cause defenses to place stopping of the run their highest priority, unlike last season. Having an upgrade at WRs does not hurt.

Beyond that, improved pocket presence from the QB and better blitz pickup from the RBs (thx in part to coach Rathman) should make small improvements. Finally, for full context the score will dictate a great deal. Trailing vs leading or tied in the 4th quarter affects play calling. I expect most Niner games this year, win or loss, to be decided by ten points or less so the runnng game will most always still be a threat. That too will help.

Fooch – Thanks for bringing up the opportunity for full context on this.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Aug 31, 2009 5:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

successful catches will limit blitzing

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is a successful passing game. If the opponent’s defense is burned on blitzing, they’ll do it less often. But given the anemic passing threat so far, expect the Dallas approach of sending in more defenders to block running lanes and sack the QB, which in turn makes the O line demoralized. A number two receiver, Morgan or Battle, needs to emerge with some big catches.

by Vertigo on Aug 31, 2009 5:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

True

While I understand that this is business, that’s why when Crabtree shows up I don’t intend to hold a grudge.

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right on

I think we’ll all happily join you with that philosophy. It’ll become even easier the first time he catches an eight yard pass, breaks a tackle or two and ends up thirty yards up the field.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Aug 31, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I want one more pre season game

After that I can make real assessment of the pass protection and of Hill. I know what I say last year and that wasn’t bad. Certainly much better than we saw Sat. Also it seems to me that as Vetigo alluded to above is that this offense will rely on a potent running game that will draw in the LB. and safeties In addition ( my assumption) there will a good mix of short to mid yardage passing attack using the backs and TE.s which will also make the opposition to play close. Once this begins to work we will see some mid to deep balls which I assume will have some level of success.

All of that will begin to spreed the definses and open up the offense.

That is the strategy that will allow the Niners time to develop Davis as the QB of the future. Then we can have the whole enchilada

by WC-Ninerhead on Aug 31, 2009 6:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's your context

I looked up the Niners sack totals on a game by game basis and found that after the first half of the season we allowed 34 sacks. A lil match shows that the team thus gave up 21 sacks the remainder of the season. Although it does show that the Nolan/Martz system created more sacks, it is also worth noting that had that if you stretched that number for the whole season we would’ve still been in the bottom 10 in terms of sacks allowed (a theoretical 42). And had we faced the Giants later in the season, I think we would’ve still gave up 6 sacks.

Yes, we didn’t have all our starters and perhaps had they been available we would’ve had a reduced number but given what they showed during the pre-season, it doesn’t seem like the figure would have been that much different. I’m not going to pull a figure out the air but at best we’re in the lower third of offensive lines and need an upgrade. Would you argue that we are any better than bottom half of the league?

If we are to have a shot at the playoffs, we need some sort of upgrade on the line. Both lines for that matter. If the team can’t hold up at the point of attack, there isn’t much of a chance we can execute our plays.

So yes, the 55 sacks (or even a theoretical 42) allowed number isn’t gospel but any line that allows anything close to that needs to be throughly retooled.

by 9erguy on Aug 31, 2009 6:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Minor spelling error

I wrote “A lil match shows” when it should say, "a lil math would show "

by 9erguy on Aug 31, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The offense strategy is designed to hide this problem.

And maybe it will. Explains why Robinson is so important: another way to get rid of ball quickly.

by Vertigo on Aug 31, 2009 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe but I tend to think that the offense will open up at some point..

If the running game is successful and we exploit that with a valid passing game (doesn’t have to be great) that will make the opposition think " pass" rather than commit for a run, then we can move the ball and get first downs on 1st and 2end rather than a simple “grind it out” ala Ground Chuck.

by WC-Ninerhead on Aug 31, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's the league average?

Frankly, I am much more worried bout the DL than the OL. If you can’t pass block, you can at least try to run the ball… but if you can’t rush the passer, you are going to be behind all the time… and will have to pass…

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Aug 31, 2009 7:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

League Avg.

It’d take too much time for me personally to compute the actual average. However, Tampa Bay was ranked 16th in sacks allowed by giving up 32 sacks last season. How almost half of you see our team doing better than this despite no upgrade puzzles me. I do hope we do. Just, hopefully we were holding back during the pre-season

by 9erguy on Aug 31, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Ahmad Brooks just had arthroscopic surgery

on knee, the AP reports; out 2-3 weeks.

by Vertigo on Aug 31, 2009 7:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m expecting sacks in the high 30’s or 40’s. JTO added sacks, Martz system added sacks. Shaun Hill adds some sacks but not at the rate of JTO. Raye’s conservative play action offense should subtract some sacks. Finally offensive lines get better with time. Most of the line is still coming of age, individually and as a unit they should be improved from last year.

by bignerd on Aug 31, 2009 8:43 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

offensive lines get better with time

So, so true. That’s why I am happy to see the cohesion with the run blocking. Obviously the pass blocking needs to improve but since I don’t believe it’s a talent problem, time together should make it better. Let’s now hope that Baas and Snyder are healthy enough to start practicing the full week before the opener.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Aug 31, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That sounds right, 35 plus.

I don’t think it does any good to compare sacks the Niners gave up five or six years ago with the current team. A more reliable running game should subtract sacks too.

I’ll say it again. If you install Martz as your offensive coordinator you’ll get more offensive yardage, but you’ll get more sacks and turnovers. Maybe if there’s the top receiver talent and an accurate quick-release quarterback you might actually have a winning record. But the fact that no one has even sniffed Martz since Singletary fired him says all you need to know about TGSOT. (I suspect the league’s fascination with the Wildcat is going to wane pretty quickly too.)

So my theory again is that the presence of Martz and Nolan on the coaching staff actually gave us worse results last year than a more regular NFL offense and defense would have given us. With the increase in talent this year (although not at certain key positions like pass rusher or quarterback) and the fact that the players should better perform I expect modestly better results than last year. That may be enough to put the team into the playoffs.

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Turners offense in a easy sched..

Ranked 24th. Martz’s in a tougher sched ranked 22nd, after a year that offense was one of the worst in 49er history.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The most consistent stat for getting into the playoffs last year

was a team’s rushing offense.

But let’s see where Martz’s team finishes this year… oh wait, he has no team. Not one of the 32 NFL teams decided to bring him onboard to run an offense. I guess his offenses are so good that no one wanted to have him coach for them because it would be too easy, or unfair.

by Bob On The Coast on Aug 31, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's hope the Martz curse..

Where a team gets worse after he leaves doesn’t come into effect. It’s not like Raye left a lot of teams in a better position either.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Aug 31, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you have something personal against Martz?

It seems like your going to great lengths to discredit him…

Also, no, passing is much more important to winning than running. (see link)

by Brendan Scolari on Sep 1, 2009 3:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It because..

Martz owned the 49ers and embarrassed them during his time as HC for the Rams (was that fake play where Warner faked a timeout, pulled his chinstrap, and a direct snap to Faulk for a TD against the 49ers? I forget how many times Martz burned us), that’s all.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Sep 1, 2009 3:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was talking to "Bob on the Coast"

Not you, but perhaps that’s his reason as well…

by Brendan Scolari on Sep 1, 2009 3:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am reffering..

To the same poster.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Sep 1, 2009 3:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah ok

I got confused because you replied to me.

by Brendan Scolari on Sep 1, 2009 3:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not as if Jimmy Raye was some hot commodity at OC.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Sep 1, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Drummer, Norv took over an offense that was even worse. They ranked 32nd only because there weren’t 35 teams. It was horrible. I think the 2007 offense, while lacking in receiving talent, was more hurt by having an OC who had never been and never again will be. The 2005 squad’s OC is now a head coach and even he couldn’t save that sorry unit. Think about it; Gore may have been the best player and he was a rookie backup RB.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Sep 1, 2009 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

True, but..

now I know people hate FO and their analysis, but this is (and I have posted this may times to which nobody, even Fla Danny has challenged) a really good look into the 49ers, the season in 2006, and what went forward:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=380

Note the " nothings changed in SF" comment. That’s the freaking truth for years now. There is no real dynamic change here. The only real true dynamic change was with Martz. That’s it. If anything, the 49ers are regressing, not progressing.

They don’t have a freaking QB. How do we miss that?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Sep 1, 2009 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Read this part...

Of the link:

Such analysis always makes me wonder about the impact of coaching. Are the 49ers well-coached but lacking in talent, meaning they’re bound to get blown out by superior opponents but can play it close and win against other mediocre teams? I’m not sure if that’s the impact of quality coaching, but it’s possible.

I tend toward your analysis that the 49ers are a mediocre or worse team, but that’s based on Alex Smith being a mediocre or worse quarterback. If he improves throughout the season, that could change the 49ers’ status.

One further question worth asking: is the 49ers’ schedule this season any more difficult than it was last season? If not, then it’s possible they can get to 9 wins playing the same way they have (if the luck breaks, of course), without really being that good a team.
 
How is 2006 different than 2009? Will is regress?. Why? Who is the freaking QB? What is the new HC who has never been one outside of a few games philosophy?

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Sep 1, 2009 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Format fail..

The last sentence is my own.

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Sep 1, 2009 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yet finally..

From Chase Stuart :

“Seven straight losses, most of them not even close, for the 49ers..”

Well, we're waiting....

by drummer on Sep 1, 2009 2:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The way I see it...

The overall sack numbers will be lower, simply due to less dropbacks, less prolonged dropbacks, and far more conservative play calls. However, on a per dropback basis, the sack rate will still be bottom 10ish in the NFL.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Sep 1, 2009 10:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Wow

I’m not that pessimistic. I just don’t see it as that bad. For the sake of our season, I hope you are wrong.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Sep 1, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's a Seahawks fan...

… remember that.

All joking aside, I can definitely see the team being in the bottom half of the league again in terms of sacks. The offensive line hasn’t been really solid and the QBs are still somewhat indecisive. Until they get on the same page, sacks will continue to come.

by sfgfan on Sep 1, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even with the same line?

I don’t see what you think will be so improved.

by Brendan Scolari on Sep 1, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's not pessimistic.

Like someone just pointed out above, even with Shaun Hill starting the whole season, you could project something around 40 sacks to the line. Make it in the late 30s for good measure without Martz. That’s still among the worst sack rates in the NFL.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Sep 2, 2009 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And of course, no significant line upgrades.

This is basically the same offensive line of last season, banking on improvement by some of the younger members, Shaun Hill being better in the pocket that JTO, and a system that doesn’t predicate on high-risk, high-reward stuff.

"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."

by Fearless Frog on Sep 2, 2009 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps foolishly

I don’t think the line is bad. Other than Heitmann they’re all relatively young. Better coaching and better offensive philosophy and play calling should all help. Time will tell but I don’t think it’s a talent issue so it being the same line (minus Sims and Jennings) is fine by me.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Sep 1, 2009 7:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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