2009 Statistical Rankings: 49er Players Through Week 2
On Wednesday, we here at Niners Nation (NN) introduced a new weekly post presenting Football Outsiders' (FO) team rankings according to defense-adjusted value over average (DVOA). Hope you enjoyed it, and hope you continue to read it for the next 15 (or more?) weeks. It turns out that FO also publishes player DVOA stats, as well as advanced stats measuring the performance of each team's OL, DEF front seven, and secondary. These stats are what I'll be presenting today, and will continue to present each Thursday or Friday during the regular season (and playoffs?).
If you don't know what DVOA is or how to interpret it, consult Wednesday's post. It's got my English-language answers for these relatively complicated questions. For today's post, and beware it's a long one, I'll be explaining FO's player stats as I present them.
After the jump, I'll discuss the player stats for the 49ers' QBs, RBs, WRs, TEs, OL, DL, and DBs...
Before I begin, I just want to alert everyone to something that I'm sure would come up in the comments were I not to address it in the article. Basically, I'm only going to present stats for individual 49ers that have enough passes (15), carries (16), or targets (6 for WR, 3 for TE) to qualify for FO's most valid individual statistics, DVOA and DYAR. Below the relevant "yardage opportunity" thresholds, these statistics can be wildly erratic from week to week, and - frankly - aren't as trustworthy or enlightening as I'd like them to be. Let me make clear though that this would be my opinion about any statistic, as all statistics are negatively impacted by extremely small sample size. Furthermore, I'd still take FO's small-sample stats over the popular NFL stats because, although both may be flawed when sample size is low, at least FO's stats are adjusted for opponent (after Week 3), game situation, and other important factors.
With that said, it's on to the stats and rankings...
QUARTERBACKS
Here are Shaun Hill's stats through 2 games (bold = top 8 in the NFL; italics = bottom 8):
|
DYAR |
Rank |
Passes |
Actual Pass Yards |
Yds Per Pass |
Rank |
|
-20 |
31 |
65 |
296 |
4.55 |
32 |
|
DVOA |
Rank |
|
EYds |
EYds Per Pass |
Rank |
|
-16.5% |
30 |
|
278 |
4.28 |
31 |
Before I discuss this table, let me explain what Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement (DYAR) and Effective Yards (EYds) mean. I've done this before on NN, but I'll do it again for the sake of clarification and NN newbie introduction.
For DYAR, FO first determined - via statistical analysis of NFL historical data - a "replacement level" of performance for each position that represents the number of yards an average NFL "backup" gains at that position. DYAR compares a player's yardage total to this "replacement level," and, as such, represents the difference between a player's yardage total and the yardage total that would be expected if he was replaced by an average backup at his position. In other words, DYAR answers the question that's often thrown around when it's time to argue about the MVP, "What would happen to Team X's offense if Player A got hurt and was replaced by Player B, who's an average backup?" In this sense, DYAR is a measure of a player's value to his team's offense, with positive numbers meaning his offense would be worse off yardage-wise without him. Now, obviously some backups are not average at all (See Sproles, Darren), so I'm using the MVP analogy in the name of education, not exact methodological precision. The purpose of DYAR is to compare players at the same position in a statistically valid way, not to settle the MVP debate. Therefore, it's important to realize that FO's use of a replacement level - something that's also done in sabermetrics - is aimed at creating a trustworthy statistic (by standardizing, and providing a baseline for starter performance) rather than providing fodder for sports talk radio.
For EYds, FO simply adjusts each players yardage totals based on the same factors for which it adjusts their DVOA statistic (i.e., opponent, game situation, etc.). In other words, EYds is basically DVOA without the whole "play success" determination that I described on Wednesday. This is intuitive because both are grounded in the concept that some yards (e.g., rushing yards on 3rd and 20 against DET) are easier to gain than others (e.g., rushing yards on 3rd and 2 against PIT), and therefore that high-difficulty yards should be worth more (i.e., are more efficient) than low-difficulty yards. Because this has the effect of standardizing (aka evening out) game situations for all players at the same position, EYds tells you how many yards a player would be expected to have if he played in average game situations. When a player's EYds is higher than his actual yards, it means that (a) he's been playing in game situations that are more difficult than average, and (b) he's actually been more efficient than his actual yards would seem to suggest. In contrast, the opposite is true when EYds is lower than actual yards.
Just to make EYds as clear as possible, here's a quick example:
Thomas Jones runs for 10 yards on 3rd and 1 against TEN this week, while Willis McGahee runs for 10 yards on 3rd and 10 against CLE this week. Both Jones and McGahee ended up with 10 rushing yards according to the NFL. However, we all know that Jones' 10 yards were more valuable than McGahee's because TEN is the top-ranked run DEF, whereas CLE is the 31st-ranked run DEF. Now, let's say that, on 3rd and 1, TEN's run DEF is 25% better than average (i.e., each rushing yard on 3rd and 1 against TEN's DEF is worth 125%), whereas CLE's run DEF is 25% worse than average (i.e., each rushing yard on 3rd and 1 against CLE's DEF is worth 75%).
Given these defensive situational stats, Jones' 10-yard run would have been expected to go 12.5 yards against an average run DEF (10 x 12.5 = 12.5), while McGahee's run would have been expected to go 7.5 yards (10 x .75 = 7.5). In other words, Jones' EYds for his run was 12.5, whereas McGahee's EYds for his run was 7.5. Therefore, the fact that Jones' EYds (12.5) is higher than his actual yards (10) accurately shows that (a) Jones' run was in a more difficult game situation, and (b) Jones was more efficient than McGahee. Notice also how going only by actual yards, which is what the NFL provides and pundits always refer to, our conclusion about which RB is better would have incorrectly been, "they're equals." This is precisely the major benefit of relying on EYds instead of actual yards.
OK, enough with the statistics lessons...
By any valid measure, Hill's value and effectiveness through 2 games compares pretty unfavorably to the other starting NFL QBs. With respect to his DYAR, the 49ers' pass OFF would actually be 20 yards better through 2 games if he had been replaced with an average NFL backup. Unfortunately, the Niners don't appear to have an average NFL backup on their roster, at least that's what I think. The kicker is that, even if you consider Alex Smith to be an average backup, Hill's DYAR suggests an improvement of only 20 yards were Smith to be elevated to the starting lineup. And one more thing about Hill's DYAR just to drive the point home: The only starting QBs that are less valuable (i.e., have a lower DYAR) than Hill so far this year are Brady Quinn (aka "1 TD guy"), Jake Delhomme (aka "6 turnovers guy), and Matt Stafford (aka "8 days on the job" guy). That's quite impressive company, indeed.
With respect to EYds, Hill's are lower than his actual passing yards, which means that his meager production has unfortunately come in situations easier than average. Furthermore, if we compare Hill to a starter who has similar actual passing yards through 2 games, we find that he's actually been less effective than - gasp - Marc Bulger, who has 66 more EYds than actual passing yards (355 vs. 289).
Of course, all of the above stats are affected by the fact that Jimmy Raye is not Sean Payton and Isaac Bruce is not Marques Colston. In other words, SF's OFF doesn't require much in the way of passing yardage, and SF's WRs aren't exactly Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens when it comes to yards after catch.
The latter factor is something we can't really account for, but the former is accounted for by the per-pass stats in the table. As you can see, Hill has thrown for 4.55 yards per pass, which is pretty abysmal when you consider that the average is 6.25 among the 35 QBs with 15 passes or more. What's worse though is Hill's 4.28 EYds per pass, which is over 30% lower than the qualified-QB average. Not to mention that the #1 QB, Drew Brees, has an EYds/Pass that's triple that of Hill's (12.83).
RUNNING BACKS
Among Niner RBs, only Frank Gore qualifies for the most valid FO stats through 2 games (> 14 runs). Here they are:
|
DYAR |
Rank |
Runs |
Actual Run Yards |
Yds Per Run |
Rank |
|
24 |
13 |
38 |
237 |
6.24 |
5 |
|
DVOA |
Rank |
|
EYds |
EYds Per Run |
Rank |
|
7.6% |
15 |
|
169 |
4.45 |
17 |
Looking at DYAR, Gore has been more valuable than all but 12 RBs, the most valuable of which has been Marion Barber (DYAR = 75). If we translate Gore's DYAR into DYAR per run, we see that replacing him with an average backup would cost the Niners' run OFF over half of a yard per carry. Of course, the question is whether or not Glen Coffee is an average backup. Based on the preseason, you'd think he's above average. However, because (a) preseason stats don't mean anything (See Clayton, Thomas; sorry Ninjames), and (b) he's a rookie, you can't be so sure of that above-average status.
Regarding EYds, Gore's are considerably lower than his actual run yards, which means that his production has come in easier-than-average situations. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is due to his pair of 80-yard TDs against the Seahawks, which both came in a relatively easy running situation (1st & 10 with the Niners up 3 points). I can't know this for certain though because I'm not privy to the situation-specific NFL averages that FO uses to determine whether the difficulty of a particular game situation. However, it's interesting to note that the RB immediately ahead of Gore in actual run yards, Chris Johnson with 254, also seems to have had his EYds (145) take a massive hit thanks to 2 long TD runs in Week 2, albeit in (intuitively) easier game situations. Specifically, Johnson's 57-yard TD run came on 3rd & 19 with the score tied at 0, and his 91-yard TD run came on 3rd & 10 with the score tied at 24. Running the ball on 3rd & Long with the score tied against HOU's run DEF sure seems like about as easy a game situation as you can get to run the ball. Although this is most likely why his yards-to-EYds difference is even larger than Gore's, I still think both of their differences are due in major part to the length of their TD runs because, subtracting 25%, for example, from an 80-yard "easy" run (or 20 yards) does much more damage to a RB's EYds than subtracting 25% from a 20-yard "easy" run (or 5 yards); 15 more yards of damage to be exact.
WIDE RECEIVERS
Among Niner WRs - and this shouldn't surprise you - only Isaac Bruce qualifies for the most valid FO stats through 2 games (> 5 targets). Incidentally, you should know that, for WRs and TEs, FO analyzes all plays in which a player was the intended receiver of a pass, not just the passes he actually catches. For your convenience, I've included "Catch Rate" in the table, which is simply Receptions divided by Targets. OK, here are Bruce's stats:
|
DYAR |
Rank |
Targets |
Actual Rec Yards |
Yds Per Target |
Rank |
|
-2 |
55 |
16 |
109 |
6.81 |
46 |
|
DVOA |
Rank |
Catch Rate |
EYds |
EYds Per Target |
Rank |
|
-14.3% |
55 |
50.0% |
99 |
6.19 |
54 |
According to DYAR, Bruce could be replaced by an average backup and the 49ers wouldn't lose much in the way of receiving yards. Unlike the situation with Gore, the 49ers likely do have an average backup or two on their roster. The question becomes, "Does Bruce's experience, leadership, and rapport with Hill make him more valuable than the average WR backup with which you'd replace him; say Brandon Jones or - gasp - a signed Michael Crabtree?" At this point, I'd say the answer is probably, "Yes, Bruce is more valuable right now."
I think the take home message of this table is that the 49ers' pass OFF doesn't have a #1 WR. Alternatively, you might say that anyone who thinks the 49ers have a #1 WR is sorely mistaken - at least through 2 games. I say this because Bruce, the Niners' nominal #1 WR, actually ranks as a middle-of-the-pack #2 WR according to every stat in the table. Now, as was the case with Hill, he's being affected by Raye's offensive philosophy. As evidence for this Raye effect, I'll echo something Mike Sando reported recently: Only twice has Raye been the offensive coordinator (OC) of a 1,000-yard WR, and only twice has one of his WRs had 65 catches or more. Interestingly enough, Bruce is on pace for a 64-catch, 872-yard season. Coincidence? I think not.
TIGHT ENDS
Among Niner TEs, only Vernon Davis qualifies for the most valid FO stats through 2 games (> 2 targets). Here they are:
|
DYAR |
Rank |
Targets |
Actual Rec Yards |
Yds Per Target |
Rank |
|
0 |
31 |
13 |
72 |
5.54 |
34 |
|
DVOA |
Rank |
Catch Rate |
EYds |
EYds Per Target |
Rank |
|
-7.7% |
31 |
53.8% |
61 |
4.69 |
32 |
All hail your 49ers' 2006 1st-round pick! The 31st-most valuable TE in a 32-team league! Seriously, though, there are two OFF positions that were poised to benefit when Raye replaced Mike Martz as OC: RB and TE. After all, Tony Gonzalez made his bones when Raye was in KC. Not to mention the fact that Martz had the perennial nobodies like Jeff Robinson, Roland Williams, Ernie Conwell, Brandon Manumaleuna, and Dan Campbell manning the TE position during his tenures in STL and DET. And yet, VD's 2-game "renaissance" consists of vaulting from 37th in DYAR last year to 31st this year.
To be fair, ARI and SEA have two of the better sets of LBs and Ss in the NFL, so it might be the case that VD's stats will improve when FO incorporates opponent adjustments after Week 3. Maybe, maybe not; we'll just have to wait and see. I wouldn't hold my breath though. The bottom line is that the 49ers have a seemingly above-average backup in Delanie Walker, so they might actually benefit from starting him over VD. Whatever the case may be, it's getting awfully close to "fish or cut bait" time for the guy in the fuchsia shirt.
Here he is soliciting your vote for the poll:
OFFENSIVE LINE
For the sake of brevity, I'm not going to explain FO's methodology behind their stats for OLs and DEF front sevens. You can find their thorough explanation here. Rather, I'll just tell you that, in the next table, the following stats, are interpreted in the following ways:
- Adjusted Line Yards (ALY) - Run yards per RB carry (up to 10 per carry) that are attributable to the OL. This is a measure of OL run-blocking performance, with higher numbers meaning better OL play.
- Power Success Rate - % of runs that are successful on 3rd/4th Down & 2 or Less (i.e., ones that result in a 1st down or TD). This is another measure of OL run-blocking performance, with higher %s meaning better OL play.
- Stuffed Rate - % of RB carries that gain 0 or negative yardage. This is another measure of OL run-blocking performance, with lower %s meaning better OL play.
- Adjusted Sack Rate (ASR) - Sacks per pass attempt. This is a measure of OL pass-blocking performance, with lower %s meaning better OL play.
Each of these stats has been adjusted for game situation, with all stats except ASR also having been adjusted for OFF formation because some formations produce more OL-reliant rushing yards than others. As with other FO stats I've presented over the past 2 days, opponent adjustments won't kick in until after Week 3. OK, here are the 49ers' OL stats through 2 games:
|
ALY |
Rank |
Power Success Rate |
Rank |
ASR |
Rank |
|
2.51 |
31 |
50.0% |
25 |
10.0% |
29 |
|
Actual Yds Per RB Carry |
Rank |
Stuffed Rate |
Rank |
Actual Sack Rate |
Rank |
|
5.20 |
5 |
24.0% |
23 |
12.1% |
30 |
Let's start with pass-blocking. Yeah, not so good. According to their actual sack rate, Hill is getting sacked about once every 8 times he drops back to pass; good (bad?) for 30th in the NFL. According to ASR, the picture's a little rosier, but still not pretty: game situations have accounted for between 1 and 2 total sacks thus far this season, meaning that the OL is actually pass blocking better than what basic NFL stats would otherwise indicate (ask me in the comments if you want to know how I came up with this). Of course, surrendering 6 or 7 sacks in 60+ dropbacks isn't going to cut it in the long run (long pass?...sorry, had to).
In terms of run blocking, it sure looks like the Niners' OL isn't doing it very well. To begin, only half of SF's yards per RB carry can be attributable to the OL, a stat that's no doubt affected by Gore's twin 80-yard TD runs. In other words, outside of those 2 runs, in which the lion's share of the yardage was thanks to Gore's breakaway speed, the SF run OFF has been the proverbial 3 yards and a cloud of dust. More proof of the OL's lackluster run-blocking performance through 2 games is their relative inability to (a) pick up 1st downs on short-yardage runs, and (b) prevent DEF penetration for stops at or behind the line of scrimmage. These conclusions are based on the OL's power success rate and stuffed rate.
Below is a chart displaying the OL's directional run-blocking performance (click to enlarge):
Looking at the top of the chart, you can see the 49ers are running the ball predominately up the middle and behind RT. Keeping in mind that the NFL standard for teams with a right-handed QB is to have their better run blockers on the right side of the line and their better pass blockers on the left side of the line, the Niners' preference for middle-right runs is in the top quartile of an already middle-right run-heavy league. It's also interesting to note - not to mention very peculiar - that SF hasn't the run the ball to the outside right at all in their first 2 games.
With respect to directional ALY, notice how inept the 49ers' OL has been on runs behind the tackles. This is especially troubling behind RT for the reason I just described: it's where their OFF prefers to run the ball. Hey. At least they're only below average when it comes to running up the middle. Of course, these stats probably confirm what we've been seeing in the run game from our 49ers. Namely, 3 yards and a cloud of dust; keep running it up the middle for minimal gains regardless of whether the DEF is stopping it or not - and they have been.
DEFENSIVE FRONT SEVEN
The same stats for OL can be applied in reverse to the DEF. However, rather than these stats measuring the performance of the DL, it's more accurate to say that they measure the performance of the DEF front 7 because LBs - and sometimes Ss - are involved in run-stopping. So here they are:
|
ALY |
Rank |
Power Success Rate |
Rank |
ASR |
Rank |
|
3.24 |
8 |
100.0% |
32 |
5.8% |
14 |
|
Actual Yds Per RB Carry |
Rank |
Stuffed Rate |
Rank |
Actual Sack Rate |
Rank |
|
3.13 |
6 |
32.3% |
2 |
4.5% |
13 |
Once again, we see statistical proof that the DEF is carrying this team. Except for being perfectly unsuccessful in short-yardage 3rd/4th down situations, they've been stout overall stopping the run. Although perhaps not apparent at first glance, the Niners' middle-of-the-road ASR is an important development. For one, they were a dismal 26th last season, with an ASR of 5.0%. Also - and this is a nuanced point, so try to keep up with me here - the 2008 49ers' DEF had an ASR that was lower than its' actual sack rate, whereas this season the reverse is true. In other words, last year's pathetic sack total was - even more depressingly - a statistical mirage due to favorable game situations. Think "losing by 20 points on 3rd & 20 in the early 4th quarter." In contrast, this year's pass rush has actually been hurt, rather than helped, by the game situations in which they've played. Aside from this being yet another vindication of the validity of FO's stats, it more importantly suggests that the Niners pass rush might have more to show for itself once game situations even out a little bit as the season progresses.
Below is the DEF front 7's directional run-stopping chart (click to enlarge):
As you can see, the 49ers are a top-8 DEF through 2 games when it comes to stopping runs to the outside. Is this a speed thing? Is this a Nate Clements and Shawntae Spencer thing? Is this an overall aggressive philosophy thing? You decide.
One other thing I'll point out about the directional stats is a bit of good fortune the DEF front 7 seems to have experienced in their first 2 games. Namely, they allow over 7 adjusted yards per RB carry when the opponent runs behind their LT, but - thankfully - ARI and SEA have basically ignored that major weakness in their play-calling. If I were MIN, or any other future 2009 opponent, I'd be looking to exploit this weakness much more than 3.2% of the time.
DEFENSIVE BACKFIELD
Finally, FO puts out DVOA stats for each pass DEF that tell you how they've performed against their various types of opposing receivers. As is the case with all passing stats, these look at every pass attempt, not just those that are completed. Again, I've made a reader-friendly chart for you (click to enlarge):
Although it's quite difficult to figure out, a thorough search of the internet, NFL game books, and Fooch's DVR led to the pass DEF formations displayed above. In nickel, Manny Lawson and Parys Haralson move to DE, Dre Bly comes in as the 3rd CB, Mark Roman - ugh - replaces Michael Lewis at SS, and Lewis moves down to replace Takeo Spikes at WLB. In dime, either Lewis moves back to S (with Dashon Goldson and Roman) or Tarell Brown replaces Lewis as the 6th DB.
As for the stats, the chart shows that Spencer and Bly have actually played more efficiently than Clements. Of course, it's once again important to remember that the above stats haven't been adjusted for opponent yet. Obviously, Larry Fitzgerald and T.J. Houshmandzadeh are 2 of the best #1 WRs in the NFL, so Clements' stats stand to improve simply by virtue of the adjustments. I don't anticipate much of a change in the stats vs. TEs, because SF has faced one really good TE (John Carlson) and one invisible TE (Anthony Becht), which pretty much averages things out anyway. And one more thing I don't envision changing much is the pass DEF's poor performance against RBs, but that might just be - at least in part - by design.
BOTTOM LINE
OK, so through 2 games, we can draw the following conclusions about the 2009 49ers based on their team statistics thus far:
- Hill has produced pass-unfriendly numbers despite playing in pass-friendly situations. But having Jimmy Raye as an OC is a superceding pass-unfriendly situation.
- Gore's been a valuable and efficient RB, though not quite as much as what those two 80-yard runs might suggest. Sorry for the reality check, but don't expect him to be gaining 6+ yards per carry for the remainder of the season.
- Bruce may be the Niners' best WR, but he sure hasn't been a #1 WR, which means Morgan hasn't been a #2 WR, and so on.
- VD...can win without him.
- The OL hasn't been run-blocking very well, which is surprising, what with all the practice they've been getting. They've been pretty bad compared to the rest of the league at pass-blocking too, but still better than what their 8 sacks allowed might suggest.
- The DEF front seven has been stout against the run, especially when the opponent has run to the outside. Also, their pass rush through 2 games is statistically better than last year's, and may improve even more once their game situations even out.
- The secondary is defending well against #2 WRs, #3 WRs, and TEs, but not so well against #1 WRs and RBs. Clements' numbers will probably improve once FO starts making opponent adjustments, but the poor pass DEF against RBs probably won't.
OK, that's it for this week. If the length of these 2 posts has rubbed you the wrong way or made you feel like you just survived being hit in the back by Patrick Willis, don't fret. Next week, I won't be trying to teach everyone how FO's stats were developed, what they mean, how they're interpreted, etc. That'll make the posts a whoooooooole lot shorter. So, see you again next week, hopefully after a Niner win!
**DVOA, DYAR, ALY, and ASR statistics used to produce this article were obtained from Football Outsiders.
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143 comments
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Comments
Awesome breakdown
"I wish the Seahawks were back in the AFCW so we didn’t have to face Willis and Gore twice a year."
by Fearless Frog on Sep 25, 2009 12:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sad News
for a 2-0 team. If I believed everything they saying, I would think that we’re worst than Detroit. Sure, there something true about the Ol and playing calling but one thing I notice, We can move the ball when needed. And Win Games !!!!
I would hate to see the Giants #‘s after playing Miami !!
To bad it doesn’t factor in; Guts and Glory !!! Or the man; Singletary !!!
by LASVEGASNINER on Sep 25, 2009 12:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
by danknerd49 on Sep 25, 2009 12:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I, personally, can’t wait for the “WHERE IS YUOR PRACIOUS DVOY NOW DANNY” posts if the 49ers pull out a win this weekend.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 25, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cartesian Dualism
is Descartes ideal that the mind and body are two separate entities already… you can’t break what isn’t whole =). I love overthinking, because the 9ers only play football once a week and I need SOMETHING to do that isn’t related to classes!
by Cruithear on Sep 26, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stats
Have grad school statistics background. After two games the offensive players stats or meaningless. D stats slightly meaningful.
If I have a QB who needs to turn it up & can have a 101 rating in the 4th quarter, that’s meaningful after Hill’s number of games. Just as AP learned in his first Niner game, backs do poorly when the line blocks poorly or the O Coord doesn’t adjust.
Let’s give these stats six to eight games before we give them much creedance.
by BobE on Sep 25, 2009 12:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
aware of the sample size issue. just present these because, whether we like it or not, people are going to be talking about this stat or that stat. might as well make NN readers aware of better stats than that.
i’d be thinking of these stats more as descriptives than predictors. none of this stuff suggests anything for the future, just describing the first 2 weeks.
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree on the sample size point..
Way to early to draw conclusion..probably a better idea to do this every 4th game…
as for being superior to traditional stats..uhhhhh…some certainly..but turnover differential are a great indicator of success in football..as well as some others..
FO makes some more interesting as well as bringing out the situationals..but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water..
by 11allstar on Sep 25, 2009 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Danny implies anywhere that we should read too much into this.
In fact, he seems to go out of way a couple of times to say “it’s only two games and we’ll know A LOT more when x, y and z happen.”
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 25, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FloridaDanny
We know that the info you provide is not yours, but from a data source. But this source doesn’t factor in certain things. Certian things that saves a win.
For instance, A team may throw 400 yards playing catchup while the other team is playing prevent defense. It looks good for the offense and bad for the Defense.But the info doesn’t show the real story.
You’re doing a good job and keep up the good work and I’ll continue to read your columns.It takes alot of work to provide the info you do.
by LASVEGASNINER on Sep 25, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the problem with DVOA and similar attempts is that it doesn’t adequately cover what makes a certain play more valuable, but does a pretty darn good job for still being such a young stat.
On the other hand, part of the idea is also that over time a lot of things that we think of as problems for stats actually even out. Looking at one game, you might say “darn, they were racking up yards against a prevent defense! The stats don’t account for that!” but then the next week the team might be racking up yards against a stiff Steelers front, and you’ll be like “darn, they did awesome! The stats don’t account for that!”
The stats don’t necessarily account for individual instances, but those situations often account for themselves over time. It’s another reason that sample size is so unbelievably important.
Now, to clarify: I’m not trying to say that this specific thing actually does even out. I have no way to back that up with specific data. But it’s not necessarily a failure of the stat to leave some things out when those things might take care of themselves. I’d be interested to know more about how these kinds of situations even out over time. Presumably a bad team will be behind more often, racking up yards in catch up mode, and wouldn’t get an “even-out” effect like I just described. But I really don’t know. I just don’t want to be abjectly dismissive.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 25, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and actually
DVOA does account for things like behind by 24 in the 4th quarter throwing against a prevent defense.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 25, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even better!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 25, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It TRIES to.
I think the exact science of how much more valuable one situation is than another is definitely still under the microscope.
by sfgfan on Sep 25, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, definitely
and as howie said, the stat itself is pretty young. It’s by no means perfect, but it’s a lot better than the conventional stats, which don’t account for situation at all.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 25, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I didn't see there was that two of VD's catches were vital to drives.
Also, it is obvious that he is getting open and has the talent to run after the catch if the ball is thrown in front of him.
I think Vernon is a keeper at Tightend in this office.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Sep 25, 2009 12:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed...
Vernon Davis is a key element to our run blocking, and as the season progresses he’ll be getting more looks too. I don’t think it’s a matter of evaluating talent at the tight end position, but evaluating our game plan’s tendency to get said position involved.
by t p on Sep 25, 2009 12:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
also
it’s apparent that VD’s gotta stay in and protect in passing situations all too often. delanie wouldn’t be any more productive if the qb can’t get the ball out of his hands.
by t p on Sep 25, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what you are saying is that you love having a VD?..ok sorry that was bad.
Judgment day is coming!
by Widowwolf on Sep 25, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
very nice breakdown
at least now we know if we ever change team colors to fuchsia and neon blue, VD could pull it off
It was Johnny Hopkins, and Sloan Kettering, and they were blazin that s*** up everyday.
by 49erLou on Sep 25, 2009 12:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
so far...
the poll suggests VD’s fuschia shirt worked as a vote-getter…either that or fuschia is NN’s 3rd favorite color behind red & gold
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When we throw to Vernon we score
The big drive @ AZ, the opening drive vs Seattle. His catches convert third downs and lead to points. They should in theory also open it up for the WRs; we’ve yet to see that.
I’d like to see more throws to Vernon near the endzone. There was one to him on a post route Sunday in the 4th quarter that just missed. I was at the game so unable to tell if it was a bad pass, poor route or good bracket defense.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
by SpurredOn on Sep 25, 2009 1:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Questions about Hill's DYAR
Where in the calcs does it take into account the play calling? I mean, how many opportunities does our QB have to rack up any yardage? What % of the plays are called for passing, and of the pass plays, what are the average route depths and intended receivers? How much time, on average, is the QB afforded to make his reads? What about dropped balls?
This is why I take issue with some of the more advanced statistics, because looking at Shaun Hill’s DYAR rankings, you’d be led to believe that he’s far below average, and if you inserted an average QB in his place, the numbers would improve, yet this is far from true. So what merit do this numbers truly have (sample size ignored)?
by niners84 on Sep 25, 2009 1:45 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t see how that’s “far from true” or even that hard to understand, tbh. Look at his yards/attempt. Right now he’s posting a negative DYAR, so more attempts (at the same rate) would only make him look worse.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 25, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yards/pass is actually exactly what I’m talking about: Take QB1 in an offensive system where the average route depth is 13 yards and for the heck of it, let’s say the yards/pass end up being 8.5. Then take QB2, in a system where the avg. route depth is 9 yards, using the same ratio of 8.5/13, his yards/pass would end up being a paltry 5.88. That’s my point, is that the QB cannot dictate the type of offense that is ran, and it makes it hard to compare a QB in Raye’s system with a QB like Peyton Manning. Unless of course I’m missing an aspect of the DYAR calcs…
by niners84 on Sep 25, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hill likes the short routes
Hill’s low yards/att could be because of his knack for checking down. He’s had guys open deeper, he has just neglected to take the shot. So while the offensive game plan can take some of the blame for HIll’s low yards/attempt, he accounts for a lot of it too. Hopefully he will take more shots down field as his comfort in the offense grows.
by uscar on Sep 25, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but
the short routes are higher % passing plays. If you were talking about yards/completion you’d have a point, but a good quarterback will connect on a higher % of 5 yard throws than 15 yard throws.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 25, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
But where in the calcs does it incorporate completion %? It’s focus is on yards/pass. His completion % is actually decent.
by niners84 on Sep 25, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His completion % is below where it should be given the types of throws he’s making. Say a 5 yard pass has a 75% completion rate, and a 15 yard pass has a 50% completion rate. If you have 2 qbs who both have 60% completion rates, but QBA throws only 5 yard passes, and QBB throws only 15 yard passes, QBA is below average, while QBB is above average, though their raw completion % is exactly the same.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 25, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is an astute observation...
you’ll be happy to know that DYAR does acount for the factors you bring up, albeit indirectly. the explanation is a bit technical, so bear with me:
in research or statistical methodology, you can account for a covariate (an influential variable that you don’t want to muddy up your statistics) either before you calculate the statistic or afterwards. here’s an example:
suppose i want to find out the % of overweight people in the US. now, it’s a known fact that height has an influence on weight. therefore, i need to make sure that height (the covariate in this example) doesn’t give me a misleading value for the % of overweight people. i can account for height in one of two ways:
A) before i go out and weigh people, i can make the decision to go out and measure 1000s and 1000s of people of various heights. by having a sample this big (several 1000), the differences between people’s heights will wash out, such that when i go and calculate the % of overweight people, height will have no effect on it because the really tall people and the really short people average out, leaving only the % of overweight americans at average american height.
B) i can alternatively account for height after i go out and weigh people by using pretty basic statistical methods to retroactively adjust the percentage i got so that it eliminates the effect of height. i can do this with a sample of 10, 20, 50, 100, etc.
relating this back to DYAR, FO accounts for things like play-calling, route depth, etc. using the first (aka before) method, and accounts for things like game situations, opponents, etc. using the second (aka after) method.
because your question is specifically about play-calling, route depth, etc., i’ll tell you exactly how FO’s use of the first method worked.
1) they wanted to figure out defense-adjusted yards above replacement, which they defined as the number of yards a player has gained above and beyond what an average backup would gain at that position (aka the replacement level). notice my emphasis on average. should sound familiar.
2) they needed to figure out what the replacement level is for a given position, so they looked back at 100s, if not 1000s, of games played by backups at each position. these backups played for a wide variety of teams, meaning that they collected data from backups from a wide variety of play-calling philosophies, route depths in the playbook etc.
3) because of #2, they effectively ensured that any effect play-calling or route depth might have on their backup data washed out. in other words, by collecting data from so many backups on so many different teams and in so many different seasons, they were able to come up with an average replacement level that was unaffected by covariates like play-calling, route depth, etc.
4) because the same position-specific replacement level is applied to each player at that position, this “washing out of other factors” transfers directly to DYAR itself.
now, with that said, i’d like to make one larger point in response to
This is why I take issue with some of the more advanced statistics
because i’m assuming you don’t dismiss a stat even though you “take issue” with it, this comment isn’t specifically aimed at you. rather, it’s aimed at the larger NN phenomenon of people not understanding the following:
“advanced” stats, or any stats for that matter, are not some magical entities that are intended to perfectly explain what you just saw on the football field, for example. it would be impossible for FO, or anyone else, to come up with a perfect statistic. so if we accept the fact that no perfect NFL statistics exist, and we nevertheless want to pay attention to NFL statistics during the course of our fandom, we have to ask ourselves, “which NFL statistics are the most valid?” stated another way, we have to ask ourselves, “which NFL statistics best capture the known and knowable aspects of the NFL game?” or, more tongue-in-cheekly, “which statistics are least likely to make me look like a fool when i cite them while arguing with my boneheaded friend?” as of this moment, FO’s stats are easily the answer to all 3 questions. it’s not even close. if there was a continuum of “validity of NFL stats,” it’d look something like this:
(least valid) -——————————————————————————————————————————————- (most valid)
blind man’s stats -———— NFL’s official stats -———————— FO’s stats -————————————————— God’s stats
our choice is between a set of stats that account for none of the known/knowable/measurable aspects of NFL football (aka official NFL stats) or a set of stats that accounts for as many of the known/knowable/measurable aspects of NFL football that are possible/feasible at this moment (aka FO’s stats). the answer is obvious. so here’s a new rule:
if you choose to articulate on here that you think FO’s stats are full of crap or misleading, or whatever, then you must either cite better statistics that aren’t full of crap, create and present NN with better statistics, or renounce your right to comment in the future about how crappy/misleading FO’s stats are. at this point, i’m pretty much done arguing this issue because (1) i’ve done all i can to educate you on why FO’s stats are the best available — and light years better than the official NFL stats — (2) i’m not getting paid a dime by FO to do pimp their stats, and (3) i’m not getting paid a dime to write up these posts. i do it for the benefit/enjoyment of NN readers (a benefit, i might add, that can be found on — maybe — 1 or 2 other SB nation sites).
again, niners84, this wasn’t directed specifically at you. rather, i really appreciated your geat question, as it was a thoughtful, astute, and reasonable one. i just had to put this more general issue to bed once and for all on here. thanks for reading and offering comments/questions.
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
This should be sticky posted somewhere so I can link to it in the future.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 25, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your favorite...
… feature should come in handy in the future for this purpose.
by sfgfan on Sep 25, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
For the insightful response. I appreciate your willingness to explain how the stats are calculated. That being said, what are your thoughts on Cold Hard Football Facts “quality stats”?
by niners84 on Sep 25, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
on the continuum i created above
i’d say they’re right in between the NFL stats and FO’s stats. in other words, better than NFL’s but worse than FO’s.
their strengths are
1. CHFF seems to have actually run correlational analyses showing that their stats are correlated with important things like winning
2. for a couple of the stats, they showed that their stats are good at predicting future outcomes (e.g., playoff teams, super bowl participants, etc.)
3. they seem to be combinations of various official NFL stats (e.g., bendability = DEF yards allowed divided by DEF points allowed), but only use the ones that they’ve found to be most important in terms of winning.
however, their weaknesses are:
1. because they use game stats rather than play-by-play stats, their sample sizes are pretty small. for example, as it relates to offensive quality stats, we’re talking about 16 games vs. 960 plays (16 games x 60 plays). there’s a huge difference when it comes to statistical power, sampling variability, etc. between 16 and 960.
2. they don’t have the main benefit of FO’s stats. namely, the idea that all yards aren’t created equally. in other words, they ignore situational stats, and therefore ignore what the most important game situations are.
3. they’re just mathematical rejiggerings of official NFL stats, so they begin on a shaky foundation. this is kind of a “lipstick on a pig” thing. dividing one bad stat by another bad stat doesn’t eliminate the badness of the two stats. it just restates it in another way. basically, this is a difference between mathematics and statistics. in math, you take one number and multiply, divide, add, subtract some other number. in statistics, you create a whole new theoretical estimate based on the highest statistical probabilites (i.e., effects) associated with other numbers. CHFF is math (as is fantasy football scoring). FO is stats.
4. most of their validity research seems to be based on only a handful of NFL seasons, or in some cases 1 NFL season. you can’t effectively evaluate the validity of a statistic with such a small sample size. for example, they cited PIT in 2005 and a couple of other teams in 2004 & 2005, as proof that quality wins is predictive. however, this strikes me as less impressive than what they’re reporting because what about all the other seasons of NFL football? maybe 2004 and 2005 were abberations with respect to quality wins predicting playoff success. basically, they need more proof before i sign off. i should note that FO’s DVOA stat is based on all NFL plays from 1995-2008 (so far). now that’s a huuuuuuge sample of plays, and allows for much stronger conclusions in re the validity of their stat.
if i were to single out one CHFF quality stat that is probably the best one of all, i’d have to go with the Hog Index. this is for rather technical measurement-related reasons having to do with reliability and content validity.
anyway, there you have it. sorry for the delay in replying. didn’t see your comment until a few minutes ago.
by Florida Danny on Sep 26, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you choose to articulate on here that you think FO’s stats are full of crap or misleading, or whatever, then you must either cite better statistics that aren’t full of crap, create and present NN with better statistics, or renounce your right to comment in the future about how crappy/misleading FO’s stats are. at this point, i’m pretty much done arguing this issue because (1) i’ve done all i can to educate you on why FO’s stats are the best available — and light years better than the official NFL stats — (2) i’m not getting paid a dime by FO to do pimp their stats, and (3) i’m not getting paid a dime to write up these posts. i do it for the benefit/enjoyment of NN readers (a benefit, i might add, that can be found on — maybe — 1 or 2 other SB nation sites).
Can we still argue the statistical model doesn’t do a good enough job evaluating performance therefore the resulting conclusion is suspect?
Case in point, Vernon Davis 31st-most valuable TE in league. F.O. model at least as you presented it only accounts for TE performance as it pertains to passing statistics. VD had two well executed, difficult blocks on both Gore’s TD runs. A lesser blocking TE might have missed the assignment, lets say Eric Johnson, as a result it’s 2nd and 4 in both cases instead of touchdowns. Eric Johnson might have hauled in a few more passes on the continuation of those drives, producing better statistics but also the odds are those offensive drives would have produced less points. Is Eric Johnson really the better TE as the advanced statistics would suggest?
by bignerd on Sep 25, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course you can...
genuine arguments about the limitations of FO’s stats — like niner84’s above — are not prohibited. hell, i welcome that because it makes all of us a little bit more enlightened. i’m just through responding to the dismissive “FO’s stats are full of crap” comment from people who have no intelligent understanding of what their stats are (and are not) saying, and who appear to have no desire to educate themselves on the topic.
with that said, to your point about VD and EJ…you’re right. FO’s DYAR and DVOA stats for TEs are based totally on receiving yards, so they don’t account for the aspects of a TE’s job that don’t involve catching the ball. this is true of all positions really, and i kind of alluded to what you’re talking about in the post when i raised the idea that bruce may “replaceable” from a receiving yardage standpoint, but not from a leadership, experience, QB rapport standpoint. in essence, DYAR tells you whether the player’s yards can be replaced, not whether the overall performance of all job duties can be replaced.
i should also mention that the only FO stats i can think of that might give you a gauge of VD’s blocking performance — at least his run-blocking — are the strong side directional ALY stats i displayed in that OL chart. i’m not sure how much of the time VD is lined up on the strong side of a run play formation, but i have to believe he, like most TEs, lines up on the strong side for most plays in general. so the RT and RE ALYs might be useful. however, i wouldn’t go staking my reputation on it.
finally, your comment brings up a larger point that aaron @ FO addressed a few years back in a peer-reviewed article in the journal of quantitative analysis in sports. namely, it’s infinitely more difficult to find and collect meaningful data on football than it is in baseball. practically everything that happens in a baseball game is recorded statistically. in football, practically nothing is. in fact, outside of QBs, RBs, and WRs, the majority of what each position does in a football game goes totally unmeasured. your TE blocking issue is a perfect example. as aaron said, there are obviously a lot of reasons for this lack of data, the two most important of which are (a) the NFL’s interest in tracking stats is in its infancy compared to MLB’s, and (b) it’s a lot more difficult to follow what 22 players do for 120 plays in a game than it is to follow what a pitcher, batter, and a fielder or two do for 80 or so ABs in a game. so i guess the point is, yeah, you make a good observation, and, yeah, football statisticians are trying to address these things as time goes on.
incidentally, it struck me the other night when the MNF crew mentioned how the colts were the first team since 1977 to win an NFL game despite having fewer than 15 mins of possession time. and why 1977? not because some other team did it in 1977, but because 1977 is when the NFL started tracking time of possession!!!! the NFL’s been around over 75 years, and for more than half of that time, the public had no idea how long each team held the ball for!!! this is exactly what i’m talking about when i said that NFL stats are still in their infancy.
anyway, good observation/question/comment.
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate the work you do Danny
I find it entertaining and insightful. I’m guilty of spending most of my time questioning the few stats I hold reservations towards but none of my time commenting about the statistical conclusions I find agreeable.
IMO, I think your articles are better when someone flames the post without providing much merit because it only draws out more discussion and insight.
by bignerd on Sep 25, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff Danny...
I appreciate the effort, and I find it illuminating. But there are fans out there that aren’t that interested in the volume of information that you and FO provide. Football to a lot of fans is a pretty simple game. I mean, there are a few weeks peppered in where I can care less about football, and all I want to do is drink a few cold ones while munching on some quality smoked BBQ on Sunday, and the hell with stats, projections, yadda yadda. So, I wouldn’t sweat of a few posters on a message board say something that isn’t relevant, and is really only made to scratch their itch, or they actually fear something like your analysis, because it’s beyond their scope.
People either like it, or they don’t. I agree that most who criticize FO and such have the old fallbacks of platitudes and anecdotes from the Ghost of Lombardi past. Not that that’s wrong either. It’s boils down to what fans are accustomed to.
That being said, even those who disagree with this should at least agree on this: this is a lot of work that you have put out here. Everybody should appreciate that, and those who don’t shouldn’t throw a pithy comment on it out there because they don’t get it.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks drummer
i totally appreciate this comment.
i also can totally appreciate the fan who wants nothing to do with the statistical side of the game, or one who, as you say, just wants to drink beer and BBQ while they watch the game. lord knows that, during the 3 hrs of a Niner game each week, stats are the farthest thing from my mind. i’m always drinking (thanks to nolan), and i’m frequently bbq’ing. so appreciating the NFL, and specifically the Niners, from a non-statistical perspective is something i embrace in my own fandom outside the pages of NN.
if people don’t think my posts have any value, or if they disagree with what the stats say, that’s no skin off my back. my only response to these folks is that, if they’re going to pay attention to any NFL stats whatsoever, the ones that i’m providing here (for their edification) are the most valid ones available. if they want to have a more intricate understanding of how the 49ers are performing outside of, “man, gore was a beast this week,” my posts are here to (hopefully) indulge their curiosity. no more, no less.
as niner84’s comment to which i responded suggests, thoughtful, personally respectful, genuinely curious, and/or reasonable comments/arguments will be responded to in kind. and in the same vein, as kezarvet’s comment below suggests, ignorant, rude, dismissive, and/or illogical arguments will also be responded to in kind.
thanks again. it’s much appreciated coming from you.
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, thank you..
One of the reason why I come here is because fo Fooch’s commitment to bring the best analysis and opinion to the 49er fan table. Niners Nation is MO the most credible of fan sites. You, Howie, Drew, Brendan, Prof Bigelow as well as our beloved Fooch (and others that I fail to mention) post topics and issues that are pragmatic in reason and scope. Yet, some fans look at FO as “rocket science”, and to a lot of people, football isn’t rocket science. But they should at least appreciate how you explain this particular “science” for digestion. Heck, the guys over at Pro Football Reference’s blog analysis is more mind boggling and nerdy than this.
One of the reason’s why I started to gain more interest here was because of your posts. I became aware of FO from reading other boards and blog’s that had nothing to do with the 49ers. I think I became aware of FO after I read an article on Marathe in the SF Weekly years back. FO was brought up there, and even Brent Jones was pimping the ProTrade sight back then on KNBR. Billy Beane was co-hosting with Ralph, and I called in and asked him about that article and “Martheball”. Anyway, the future of football looked to be heading towards a new direction, and thus, I payed a little more attention to FO and such, even though it’s still something too large for me to fully grasp at this time. But, you are helping me grasp it, and even embrace it a little more than I have.
Really, your posts really help flesh out something more tha posting Hill’s passer rating and trying to qualify Hill based on that number alone. That’s disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. More quality info is good. Less bunk info is better. Like Howie says: “Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad.”
All I can add to that is: Don’t fear the rocket science, people. We landed on the Moon because of it.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't even...
get me started on the QB rating.
revising it is going to be my next sports stats peer-reviewed journal article at some point when i have the time. it’s basically a sham. if you’re interested, i’ll have fooch give me your e-mail address, and i’ll send you a really recent study that was done examining the validity of the QB rating. it’s a good read (some parts more technical than others) , and somehow was able to actually print the QB rating formula (it was kind of necessary given the study topic), which i had always thought was locked away in a vault somewhere at NFL headquarters.
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That'd be cool..
I’d like to check that out.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
peer reviewed journal?
For sports stats all that means is mutual gratification.
by Salty on Sep 26, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually...
more like mental masturbation
by Florida Danny on Sep 26, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno about F.O. player stats
I believe they had Sammy Morris as the 6th ranked RB last year and they even admitted it defied logic.
Isaac Bruce even at this age is certainly better than an average NFL WR. That’s rub with this kind of analysis. It’s not that Isaac Bruce is a below average WR. It’s under this offense, with the 49ers personnel and play calling Isaac Bruce produces WR statistics at a below average NFL WR level.
In contrast, Sammy Morris produced RB statistics at an elite level in NE offense where he benefited from Tom Brady, Randy Moss and Wes Welker occupying the defenders.
With that said, I don’t think it’s statistical proof that the 49ers need to cut bait with Vernon Davis.
Also, looking at your write it appears F.O. puts too much emphasis on 3rd down. Wins on 3rd and 2 look sexy but wins on 1st and 2nd down have a tremendous effect on overall success rate of 3rd down.
by bignerd on Sep 25, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
they account for that
with play success (40% of required yardage on 1st down, 60% on 2nd, 100% on 3rd or 4th.)
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 25, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and no
it’s not statistical “proof” that the 9ers need to cut bait w/ VD, but it’s evidence toward it. (though not particularly strong evidence, given sample size issues).
Also, I’d say Bruce’s upside this year is an average NFL WR. He’s like 87 years old for christsakes.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 25, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, I still see Bruce fake a DB out of his shoes consistently each game to get wide open. Whereas more stat producing receivers are totally reliant on their QB hitting them with a perfect pass because they are not very good at getting open.
by bignerd on Sep 25, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem now
is that Bruce has lost a lot of speed, so that once the DB finds his shoes again, he can catch up.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 25, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so we just must get the ball to Bruce when the shoes are nowhere to be found
Judgment day is coming!
by Widowwolf on Sep 25, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
With your point of Bruce being an above avg. receiver, though the numbers don’t claim to qualify talent, merely to quantify productivity. That being said, there’s definitely something to this argument, as I’ve made with my post about Hill.
by niners84 on Sep 25, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That Vernon Davis picture
is priceless! I think that just made its way onto my computer as wallpaper for at least the next week.
by Haggardninja on Sep 25, 2009 2:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is the biggest waste of time I have ever seen.
You really need to get a life. Statistics will stunt your growth and you’ll go blind.
Kezarvet
by kezarvet on Sep 25, 2009 2:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
HEY!
Didn’t you just post something with a bunch of statistics?
http://www.ninersnation.com/2009/9/24/1053516/first-big-test-for-the-49ers
Anyways, yeah I agree that going overboard on stats is a waste of time. But I enjoy it sometimes, though I think a lot of the FO stats have some deficiencies, which I pointed out in an above post.
by niners84 on Sep 25, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
waste of time?
As Danny has said plenty of times in the past, the point of these posts is to have one more angle upon which to view our beloved 49ers. Personally I like to consider all potential angles when studying the team because it allows for a more well-rounded opinion and thus I feel like it helps me become a more knowledgeable fan. No one particular stat or angle is the be-all, end-all, but they all help in viewing the bigger picture.
by Fooch on Sep 25, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this from..
a “kezarvet” trolling the internet for 49er blogs. project much?
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
p.s.
there’s a high statistical likelihood that you are a short, blind man
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
p.p.s.
thanks for wasting your time either (a) reading this useless post, or (b) opening up a post you had no intention of reading just to personally attack the writer…now that’s the life!
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, way to be a jerk. And way to be wrong. If you could just add one more talent you’d be a triple threat!
See, I can be dismissive, too. If you don’t agree with the post or don’t care about the post, don’t read it. Or, read it and then make your complaint. I really don’t mind people not liking something they see on the site. But instead of being a baby about it, you could actually explain yourself.
And for your information, this kind of thing is sort of is Danny’s life. While not specifically DVOA/NFL-centric, he makes (or will make?) his living being able to perform this style of intelligent analysis – though his contributions to this website are completely voluntary and uncompensated.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 25, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude...
you seriously have my back today. thanks.
wait, i think saying “dude” means i’m going to grow hair on my palms.
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the _ _ _ _ is DVOA
Whatever it is has been wrong the last two weeks
Toss it!
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 6:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
p.s. I did read the article
it’s way too much for the average football fan to want to get involved in…
Are scientists running outta stuff to do at labs across the nation? I knew the economy was bad but whoa.
Football is football and to me will always be football…not a science experiment
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of stats
how’s the Niners’ won-lost percentage?
Seems that that one trumps the rest.
There are days when I’m fascinated with the stats, other days when I’m not. If the Niners are still F.O. crappy and they win the next two games they’ll be 4-0. Then someone will have to invent new statistics to explain how the Niners can be such crap and be undefeated.
By the way, anyone compare the Vikings’ F.O. stats?
by Bob On The Coast on Sep 25, 2009 7:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
no new stats needed...
odds are, if they’re still FO crappy it will be because 3 out of their 4 games were against similarly FO crappy NFC west teams. you might bring up ARI of 2008 as a counterargument. except for the fact that ARI was FO mediocre according to DVOA, not FO crappy. my hunch is that, if the niners continue to win after their schedule toughens, their FO stats will be in the mediocre range (aka not crappy). also, ARI was unbelievably good at pass OFF last season. a team can ride one great unit to wins despite other units being FO crappy. if the niners DEF, ST, run OFF and 3rd down OFF/DEF continue to be as good as they’ve been, there’s no reason they can’t keep winning, and the FO stats for these units will show it.
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
p.s.
i forgot to mention that ARI also happened to be a total historical abberation when it comes to DVOA. they defied all DVOA odds. we can’t really expect the exception to become the rule. i remind you that, as i mentioned in my SB preview, the SB champ has been top 3 in total DVOA in 13 of the 14 seasons for which DVOA exists. PIT was #3 last year, btw.
by Florida Danny on Sep 25, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With those odds you should
be in Vegas getting rich…lol
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"we can’t really expect the exception to become the rule."
Because there is no rule….evidently…
Bet you’re bankin on it though eh?
Good lucck with landing a job with ESPN…sure they’ll be glad to have you as a party favor
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Florida Danny
My apologies…
Should not have put you down for something you are obviously passionate about. Not my place to judge. I just personally dont see value in it. Not my cup of tea but to each thier own I suppose…
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"we can’t really expect the exception to become the rule"
Because there is no rule….evidently…
Bet you’re bankin on it though eh?
Good lucck with landing a job with ESPN…sure they’ll be glad to have you as a party favor
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 7:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Vernon Davis
Will eventually have great games bakc to back, or it’s time to CUT BAIT with Jimmy Raye or get a QB that can make all the throws!
She asked, "why in the club you don't make it percipitate, you know make it rain when you can make it thunderstorm?" I said "why the world needs sun the hood needs funds, there's a battle going on and half the battle is guns, how dare I throw it on the floor when people are poor, so I write like edgar allen to restore"
-A3000
BKA optimist prime- Got the Semi runin on 49er koolaid!!
by rlott#42 on Sep 25, 2009 8:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Whew
I love this kind of stuff. I’m a real numbers kind of guy, because what our own perspective is often biased by what we’re expecting to see.
This is the kind of stuff that top head coaches gobble up. Successful coaches don’t make decisions based on hunches and gut feelings. Thanks for all the effort involved in putting this together.
by smileyman on Sep 25, 2009 10:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A++. Great work.
These are the kinds of statistics that can give us valuable information once the sample size gets up into the useful range – the BYE week after five games might be a good time to take an in-depth look. They already confirm what many of us know intuitively – the defense is pretty good and the offense sucks except for a few big plays.
Thanks for the primer – how much is the FO subscription?
by MontanaPass on Sep 25, 2009 10:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Offense sucks????
23 offensive points is horrible… and 20 is just appalling against the NFC Champions…makes me sick to my stomach that we didn’t score 40.
And the D “pretty good” ….more like spectacular. 10 points and 16 points scored against??? Guess our offense better start scoring 45 points a game since the D is just “pretty good”
I don’t get it….. I truly and honestly don’t.
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Easy on the shtick..
You’ve already had to apologize once here.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't HAVE to do anything
Out of better taste; I thought it was appropriate…doesn’t change my mind about it though
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shoot first, apologize later? ...
Danny’s stuff is great, and I’m not gonna crap on this thread with petty stuff.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I admit
I got a little vicous…but its because I am sick of people that are supposed to be supporters of this team trying to find every little tiny thing that they can to validate why they hope or think or want this team to be bad.
I wonder that if one of the 53 players that is sweating blood all week long to get the W’s that they have fought to get would like to see our own fans bad mouth them or twisting stats to make them seem bad…
You think Danny’s stuff is great and it would seem the majority… Me personally, on the other side, just enjoy watching football. I am optimistic about the season and it kills me just a little to see that some fans a majority of the time are finding everything wrong with the team instead of focusing and being grateful for what this team is providing for us thus far…
Anyway, I wont visit this particular article again…too much negativity for my blood
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 10:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Consider the volume of Danny’s article, the amount of research it takes to present it, and I would surmise that Danny is a hardcore 49er fan. You can look at this stuff this way: you can find out where the 49ers have improved, and where they also need to improve. This far from a perfect team. It maybe in most cases a flawed team that is performing well in certain areas, kinda overachieving, maybe. I think the coaching has a lot more to do with the success than the overall talent at this point. That’s a good thing.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me its all robotic
and all of the intangibles are not being accounted for….like I said before, it;s not for me. I am more old school. I look at numbers, but only true numbers… Me, personally…. I would rather just see the team play on Sunday then spend countless hours on this styff.
Hence my comment “to each thier own”. Danny enjoys it and others obviously enjoy looking at this stuff. For me, actions of play, speak louder than any number. I think our game in AZ can attest to the fact that stats do not always win you a game…
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
Stats can also show you how the game was won too. The point is with FO, they are more complete than the NFL’s stats.
Pro Football Reference’s blog goes even deeper than that, but they are some hardcore geeks who really do know football.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True numbers?
Like how well players perform when injured and then projecting that? Cumulative stats after 2 games including garbage time?
by Salty on Sep 26, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is everything black and white to you?
Just because someone chooses to make unbiased observations of this team does not mean that they are rooting against it. Frankly, I’m insulted at your constant need to insinuate that you are one of the few “true fans” of this team simply because you ignore statistical analysis and in-depth inspection of the game from a more scientific viewpoint.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Sep 25, 2009 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have my opinion about it you can have yours.
Why, if it was YOUR team, would one be unbiased?? Thats an oxymoron…
I can see maybe if you were a commentator and you didn’t have a choice…but…your a fan! Why would you want to point out the negative instead of positive?
I just think different and I live a pretty awesome life…
Just for the record, that wasn’t an insuation about anyone else’s life
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you're right. It wasn't an insinuation.
Your accusations that other posters here are inferior, in fanhood, to yourself have actually been quite clear.
My pessimism goes to the point of suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
by shlecko on Sep 25, 2009 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I just don't understand alot of it
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Old School too...
But being a professional technician, I know the danger of being a Dinosaur. Not that this stuff will take you out of the Stone Age. It’s just that it’s new “technology” that is really shaping the NFL. Like I said earlier, there are days when all I want to do is drink beers and eat my smoked brisket while trying to watch a game on my iMac :bummedatthelocalTVmarket:.
If it wasn’t for technology, I would have to find 49ers fans to talk to on a daily basis. But I live in SoCal.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 26, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NFL Ticket haha
I grew up in NoCal 45 min north of SF/OAK area for the first 18 years of my life; I’m in AZ now…but I never miss a game.
Technology has its purposes for me as well…without it I would not be as successful in my line of work. I just don’t want it in football. It’s just how I feel.
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I hate AZ. I live in Palm Desert. Less smog, and just as boring.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 26, 2009 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I am not too enthusiastic about it either
Its still 190 degrees here and its September almost October. I bet its 80’s in the bay area
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 1:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The word fan
comes from the word fanatical
Definition of fanatical: motivated or characterized by an extreme, uncritical enthusiasm or zeal
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 1:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are looking at things the wrong way
Brendon had post on here about two months ago where IMO he hijacked F.O.stats to try prove Shaun Hill was definitively an awful QB. If you read the thread I took great exception how he used their stats to draw a conclusion. Fooch probably describes this type of analysis best when he says it’s just another tool to provide further insight and understanding. However these stats are just one piece of the puzzle and not a definitive conclusion. I get upset when people attempt to make this argument especially with players having a small sample size of stats.
It’s not a surprise to me that Shaun Hill and the rest of the offense rates out to the bottom of the NFL charts based off these two games, after all I have eyes. However when you assign the number 31st ranked next to them I think people lose sight of marginal difference between being ranked 31st and 20th. It’s safe to say the 49ers and Shaun Hill aren’t as good as Peyton Manning and Colts but it’s a bit of stretch to say they are 30% worse Mark Sanchez and the Jets thus the sky is falling.
It’s easier to attack F.O. analysis by the aspects of the game they neglect to measure because after all they are still in a bit of an infancy stage. F.O. paradigm for rating QBs assumes all teams want their QBs to produce like Dan Marino, i.e. the most yards and points in the shortest amount of plays. IMO, that paradigm doesn’t properly apply to a percentage of football teams. Teams that have relied on QB’s to be game managers have been successful for most the 25 years I’ve watched football and their offensive stats have been pretty much subpar across the board. As far as I know F.O. doesn’t take into account time of possession when measuring QB ratings but I’d argue Shaun Hill is better QB than JTO (better passing stats) because he effectively eats more clock while providing better field position for his team.
I am not losing at sleep at night knowing Shaun Hill rates just higher than Jamarcus Russell in passing according to F.O. but this analysis does tell me that Shaun Hill has some work to do to catch Ben Roethlisberger (ranked early 20’s) in production before the 49ers have an offense good enough to make them SB contenders.
by bignerd on Sep 25, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
I get upset when people attempt to make this argument especially with players having a small sample size of stats.
I get upset too when they try to qualify Hill against other QB’s using a small sample size too. It works both ways.
See: “He just winz da gamez” thingy.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The team
“winz da gamez” …thats why I like Hill so much, cause he doesn’t have one of these, “I’m better than the team” persona’s.
Team ball “winz da gamez” and some days one player may be horrible i.e. Gore against AZ and on the other side of the spectrum Hill and vice versa for the Seattle game.
I think that great receivers can make an OK QB like Rothlesburger “seem” better than they are…and Hill really is not working with a whole lot. We don’t have one player on the team right now (with the exception of Gore and maybe Vernon) that he could throw an 8 yard pass to and have that player run the rest of 50-60 yards for a TD…we don’t even have a WR that can really stretch the field. So of course a guy like Brady with Moss, Welker, and Galloway will get the better numbers. Brady’s a better QB, I am just using him for the point. Point being Hill has virtually no one to get it to. Stats do not measure a coaches ability to motivate a player or a QB’s ability to rally his team in the huddle…the intangibles. I see Fooch’s point about it’s just another piece of the puzzle and while some enjoy this particular piece, I just prefer not to mess with it. I like to focus on what the team is DOING outside the box…ya know?
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhat agree
However the guy is 9-3 at this point and it’s getting harder to argue luck or easy schedule as the excuses for it. At this point I think it’s reasonable to conclude their is some unmeasurable aspect of Shaun Hill game that just works despite of his league low offensive production. Without him at QB this same team is a dramatic 5-17 loser.
I just don’t get it when people say wins and losses are not a QB stat. Yes, in a purity standpoint, yet if you ever watched two football games it’s painfully obvious the win/loss stat is the only one that truly matters. A QB can have identical stats but a record of 5-0 compared to 0-5 is a world a difference as far as the QB’s job security and overall direction of the franchise. Again, Shaun Hill isn’t Peyton Manning but as his stats would suggest he isn’t holding the rest of the team back from the win column like his statistical counterparts.
by bignerd on Sep 26, 2009 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The answer for Hill is easy...
He’s Mr. Dumpoff. Even in Martz’s scheme. He was Mr. Dumpoff when Tollner had him in 2 games in 2007, where he never stretched a field, and the TO’s went down last year because he knew where to checkdown. JTO has a better arm. But he was a robot. But he did make some throws.
Hill’s pocket awareness is even more suspect now without a 5-7 step drop. He flat out stepped into sacks. In a Raye offense as opposed to Martz? The funny thing is, as bad as the QB situation is in SF, Martz made the passing game more wide open, and we saw Hill and Morgan make plays. Now, in 2 games, the 49ers have 8 sacks already.
The only confidence we really have in Hill is that, like most of his limited career as starter, he can put a few drives together. That’s it. He really has a paucity of passing numbers, and it’s more situational than say he can purely pass the rock. We don’t know if he is a consistent passer. We all know that he has balls. That’s it. Hill a pure passer? No. Hill a game manger? We won’t know after a full season of being a starter. Hill the 49ers best option at QB? That’s because the 49ers invested too much into that position while screwing it up to where all we have is Hill. Is Raye’s offense predicated on the QB, as opposed to Martz’s? No. Why is that, and just how did Martz get production out of these QB’s with an o-line that has given up over 50 sacks, and now, have given up 8 in 2 games?
Hill isn’t the reason why this team won its first 2 games. It’s the consistency of having a DC for a few years, Singletary being conservative and knowing the limitations of the team. The reason why this team won those 2 games was due to the coaching. It isn’t groundbreaking stuff either. It’s just not as confused as it was prior. Everything is very basic, but it’s predicated on it’s execution. Singletary is doing a great job at coaching this young team. But it’s still a flawed team, due to the transition of influence between Marathe and ScotM. This is truly ScotM’s team. It’s more a Nolan team too. Why?
Defense, not the offense.
Nolan should have never traded Rattay. Nolan should have stuck with the offense he first brought in, the WCO. The 49ers should have brought back Garcia along with Rattay, and stuck with the WCO. If you bring an offense in year 1, you run it in year 3. Rattay is 3 times a better QB than Hill. Nolan tossed him because he was a threat to Smith. The 49ers did everything to coddle Smith. The offense was built around him. It was never built around a scheme. The whole problem with the 49er offense is all about the QB’s. That’s it.
Keep the offense in year 1, keep Rattay, then maybe Smith might be less than a waste.
It’s all about the plan. The 49ers haven’t had one in the past few years.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 26, 2009 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not going to argue with your overall point...
…because it’s a legitimate one.
however, i do need to clarify that FO doesn’t “assume” anything about what teams want. as it relates to DYAR, that’s like accusing the NFL of “assuming” that teams want QBs with high passing yardage totals because, after all, that’s how they “rank” QBs. same could be said about the NFL as it relates to the QB rating when compared to FO and QB DVOA. DYAR and DVOA are just stats, which do of course assume certain things. however, “what teams want” or “what a specific team wants” is not one of them. all DYAR says is that “QB X is more valuable yardage-wise to his team than QB Y.” it’s the people who use DYAR that end up assuming one thing or another in their arguments.
now, with that said, everyone here needs to remember that, as it relates to hill, DYAR is saying the following:
“if hill were to go down with an injury, and were to be replaced by an average backup, SF’s pass OFF would gain about 10 yards per game.”
for the sake of comparison, it says the following in re drew brees:
“if brees were to go down with an injury, and were to be replaced by an average backup, NO’s pass OFF would lose about 200 yards per game.”
now, armed with that knowledge, it’s up to us — not FO — to decide which team would be more adversely affected by what DYAR is telling us. in other words, would NO be more adversely affected by losing 200 pass yds of OFF per game or would SF be more adversely affected by gaining 10 yds of pass OFF per game? obviously, it’s NO who would be more adversely affected, not because of brees’ specific DYAR, but because NO relies on pass OFF a helluva lot more than SF does.
so, basically, what i’m saying is that FO is not the culprit here, it’s our (mis)application of FO’s stats. hill has the 31st-ranked DYAR in the league. it doesn’t say he’s the 31st-best QB for what SF wants to do in pass OFF. in other words, what his specific DYAR means specifically to SF is up to us to decide. DYAR itself is just a stat. it has no opinion on the matter.
by Florida Danny on Sep 26, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too much tradition is
being taken away from football with all these stats, gadgets, formulas, technology and 1.3 billion dollar stadiums…
What happened to the good ol’ days when a win was a win no matter how you got it and guys were covered head to toe in mud smashing each other to pieces and the better man won on that day but would have a chance at redemtion….
Ice bowls, fog bowls, etc… Fans drinking beer, tailgaiting with a battery operated radio, yelling and hollering for thier team to win…standing, sitting, standing, sitting and more yelling
Seems to me stuff like this is just watering down and commercializing the sport more than it already is.
Well have at it, knock yourselves out
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 11:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Go support..
You’re local High School teams. That’s what I do.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do that already...
I got offered a position to coach at one as an assistant at one but I had to turn it down because my hours are insane in my proffesion
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had more fun..
Going to my nephew’s Pop Warner games. My youngest nephew plowed Steve Garvey’s kid in a practice, LOL. Nice!
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's awesome!!
Pop-warner is as pure as it gets. I loved playing… My 12 year old son likes soccer haha…tried for years to get him to switch but…it is what it is… and again…to each thier own
by Drew K on Sep 25, 2009 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soccer's cool...
My youngest nephew loves to swim, so I told him to try and play Water Polo. We have a crapload of pools here, and he is a human fish.
Well, we're waiting....
by drummer on Sep 25, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
stats
Ok, I have a question for you. Consider two separate situations:
1. On 3rd and 10 Frank Gore rushes for 5 yards and the 49ers punt.
2. On 3rd and goal at the opponent’s 4 yard line, Frank Gore rushes into the end zone for a touchdown.
If you’re looking at Frank Gore’s rushing stats for a game, just looking at the rushing yardage would show a higher number for that 5 yard rush, when in reality much more value was gained out of th 4 yard run. This is a very quick and dirty example, but it’s one way certain stats can provide more value than traditional stats.
It kind of sounds like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand by choosing to just ignore other angles on the team:

by Fooch on Sep 26, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing about this picture says FOOTBALL

by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 2:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm beginning to wonder about that letter K in your handle
![]()
by Salty on Sep 26, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather drink the kool aid than lick the salt

Yeah, I question your handle just as well
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The word fan
comes from the word fanatical
Definition of fanatical: motivated or characterized by an extreme, uncritical enthusiasm or zeal
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definition of critical
1. inclined to find fault or to judge with severity, often too readily.
2. occupied with or skilled in criticism.
3. involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.; judicial: a critical analysis.
4. of or pertaining to critics or criticism: critical essays.
5. providing textual variants, proposed emendations, etc.: a critical edition of Chaucer.
6. pertaining to or of the nature of a crisis: a critical shortage of food.
7. of decisive importance with respect to the outcome; crucial: a critical moment.
8. of essential importance; indispensable: a critical ingredient.
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 2:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i couldn't have put it better myself
by Florida Danny on Sep 26, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't realize I was
being critical of the team… but it seems that you fall under all 8 definitions
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey drew...
that comment above wasn’t responding to anything you said or to …it was a reply to fooch’s explanation.
by Florida Danny on Sep 26, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
cool
If you all are gonna personally attack me for having my own opinion about it, I am not gonna sit back and take it.
You all can do your thing…Fooch took it to the next level with head in sand picture.
I have been a Niners fan my entire life and I have just as much reason to be here and have my opinion about certain topics as anyone else does. I gave the definition per the dictionary as to what it is to be a “fan”. You all have your own version and thats fine…like I said three other times in this thread, to each thier own. But people are telling me I’m sticking my head in sand because I don’t care to spend alot of time with stats?? I guess people here cannot formulate thier own opinions here or they get ridiculed right? Well thats fine, but just know that if someone brings it at me, its coming right back
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
head in the sand
Nobody said you had to devour the stats and take them as gospel. As I’ve said repeatedly, it’s one other way to look at your team. In reading your comments it sounds to me like you want nothing to do with it. That’s certainly fine but to not be willing to acknowledge the value of them seems to me like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring it.
by Fooch on Sep 26, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Value
has different meanings to different people. Something you may value may not hold the same value to someone else. There’s certain things that I disagree with that you say but do I personally attack you by displaying ridiculous pic’s? No. How many times have we just agreed to disagree? A few. And how many times thereafter have I posted a pic basically calling you ignorant for dismissing my opinion. None. There are some people that I enjoy discussing football with here, thats mainly why I come to these. I also enjoy reading some of the articles you write, but do I agree with everything you write? No. Do I have to? Probably not. Doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy being here any less. I think as the Head Coach of theses threads, you should probably hold yourself to a particular level of integrity…maybe. IDK…I just didn’t feel that was necessary for you to bash me because I personally don’t see value in it.
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
integrity?
The picture was probably over the top and I apologize, but I don’t think that it has anything to do with my integrity.
In the end we simply have a vast difference of opinion, which is the point of this site, drawing differing opinions.
by Fooch on Sep 26, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There isn't a vast difference of opinion with all topics
But that’s fine…and I agree that it would be completely boring if everyone had the same opinion.
I apologize for my radical comebacks as well. Everyone has a right to be themselves
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't think people...
…are judging the fact that you don’t care to spend a lot of time with stats. as i said to drummer up above, there’s nothing wrong with ignoring stats if you just want to enjoy Niner football in a “Gore is awesome!” kind of way. nothing wrong at all with that.
i think people are just getting annoyed with the fact that your actions are totally contradictory to what you’re saying in the comments. if you don’t care about stats, then don’t read this article or any others like it. read everything else on NN, but ignore my posts. doing that would be consistent with the, “i’m just a fan. don’t care about stats.” mantra that you’ve been repeating on this thread. instead, though, you read a stat-heavy article (sophisticated stats at that), and then proceed to litter the thread with “stats don’t matter to me” comments, personal attacks against those who do care about the stats, etc.
i guess what i’m saying is, just be consistent. if you don’t care about the stats, then don’t do something (aka read and comment on a stat-based article) that is totally contrary to your lack of caring about stats.
i’m not attacking you personally here. like i said, i agree that to each his own. if you don’t like stats, there’s nothing wrong with that. just don’t come onto this thread and say “stats have no value” when (a) you shoudn’t have wasted your time reading the article to begin with, and (b) you get offended when anyone tries to explain to you why they believe the stats do have value.
by Florida Danny on Sep 26, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have some valid points
but had I not read it, then I would not have had any substance to what I was saying and would have been like that “kervazet” guy right? Just coming in here and spouting off with no backing. I don’t feel like it was a waste of time because after reading it, I made an educated decision as to whether or not I wanted to be a part of this particular article…
Anyway, everybody’s different and you and alot of other people here seem to enjoy it. So in all sincereity, have fun with it and good luck with it. I am always gonna be a fan and cheer for my team no matter how bad they are and whoever is on the team will get my full backing as well. That’s how I grew to love the game and the SF 49ers. I just chose to focus on what the team is doing over what they are not doing, it’s not like I can personally change what they’re NOT doing anyhow.
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't see anything wrong...
with how you choose to be a niner fan. it’s a free country after all. i have a good friend who i watch the game every week with that is the same way. if i’m starting a player on the opponent’s team in my fantasy league, he basically accuses me of not being a real niner fan. his brother is a steeler fan as well as a niner fan, and he even rips him for wanting two TVs set up so he can watch both games if they’re on at the same time. when i drafted fitzgerald in the early 1st round this season in one of the leagues we’re both in, he basically said i told me i wasn’t allowed to watch niner games with him anymore. that threat lasted all of about 5 minutes, of course. so, yeah, i guess i’m saying that, hell, i watch every niner game with a fan pretty much just like you.
so, i’d say just stick to the non-stat NN threads if you think that this stat stuff doesn’t add anything to your fandom. that’s all. no harm no foul in that.
by Florida Danny on Sep 26, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats fair enough
Btw, I don’t totally dismiss stats… I just prefer the more hard numbers…I don’t even pay attention to QB rating. Just disecting it this much is good for some but not my preference.
And your friend sounds cool but a tad bit overboard haha. I have fitzgerald on my fantasy team too but I traded for Gore and picked up Bruce. Its not like my entire team is chlaked full of Niners. Although I kidded with my brothe last Suunday that he better not play Burleson.. but it was all for the purpose of joking and giving him a hard time…not being serious.
Anyway, my intentions were not to bash even though some may have taken it that way. Everything else, I was just trying to defend myself. No hard feelings
by Drew K on Sep 26, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woo
Not taking a guy in your fantasy draft because he plays for the Cardinals is hardcore. LOL, in my circle of friends beating the crap out of each other in fantasy takes precedence over team loyalty.
by bignerd on Sep 26, 2009 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
it’s just specific to this one friend. generally speaking, kicking the crap out of each other takes precedence. just not when the crap-kicking involves a player on an NFC west rival…at least among the 3 niner fans.
by Florida Danny on Sep 26, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
origin and definition are two different things
This isn’t the 19th century.
by Salty on Sep 26, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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