Moral Victories Suck...
by kezarvet on Sep 28, 2009 6:34 AM PDT
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PrintYesterday, the San Francisco 49ers missed out on an opportunity to go 3-0 after a powerful defensive performance against Brett Favre and Adrian Peterson went for naught on a desperation Hail Mary pass with two seconds to go. It should have never gone that far. With under 2:00 minutes remaining on the clock, the Niners shut down the Vikings and took over possession.
Unfortunately, Jimmy Raye choked and called three running plays in a row, allowing enough time for the Vikings to get the ball again and end the 49er hopes. How much does Shaun Hill have to do for the OC to trust him? He could just as easily installed Michael Robinson, his best pass receiver out of the backfield, to catch a swing pass or a fullback delay -- ANYTHING, but three straight runs!
THOUGHTS:
~ Vernon Davis officially became a star today with his tremendous pass catching and great blocking;
~ Kudos to the front three on the defensive line of Isaac Sopoaga, Aubrayo Franklin and Justin Smith. Opponents are not going to enjoy trying to run the ball against this group;
~ It's time to get Jason Hill out of the doghouse and back onto the field. The 49ers can use his ability to step up late in games when needed;
~ I don't know about anyone else, but it was obvious to me (and my wife) that Frank Gore was limping BEFORE the game. He is suffering from a high ankle sprain, which is a nasty form of ankle injury that lingers a lot longer than the predicted two weeks they say he will be out;
~ It's time to activate Kory Sheets and add some speed and the ability to get outside to the running game. Sheets is a liability as a blocker so he'll have to be used tactfully;
~ It's also time to use some of Michael Robinson's athletic ability. Now in his fourth season, he has thrown ZERO passes, and has not been allowed to run the option. Come on guys, this kid is talented. Mix it up a bit. Vanilla is too bland.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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What really sucks
Is our play calling. Anyone can call straight up the middle. Ray may need to go to a new playbook and understand that there are different running plays other than…….
How much does Shaun Hill have to do for the OC to trust him?
While I agree that Raye and Singletary SHOULD have put the game in Hill’s hands on that last offensive series, I also think that Hill gave them reasons to run the ball. For the third game in a row, he failed to protect the ball. He’s been throwing jump balls all year, and yesterday was just the first time it actually hurt us. And I’ll try not to belabor the fumbles too much, but my god the fumbles need to stop.
And I’m not saying that Shaun Hill is a turnover machine and that he sucks or anything like that – so pleeease don’t flame me as a hater. I’m very happy with him right now, and – like I said – the game SHOULD have been in his hands at the end there. I’m just saying that he wasn’t perfect and he has given the coaches reasons not to put the ball in his hands.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
The 49ers fumbled ONCE...
losing NONE. What game were you watching? Hill played his usual great game in the 4th quarter and had just led them to a TD. Next 6 plays: run up the middle. Come on, you may not be a Hill hater but your comment says otherwise. No, he wasn’t perfect, but Coffee certainly was not. He dropped a crucial pass, missed a key block, went the wrong way on a run that had daylight. The kid was not ready.
Kezarvet
I didn’t say we lost the fumble. Eventually, we will lose those.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry
I don’t want to come off as short there. Let me explain myself. Shaun Hill has 14 fumbles in 16 games that he’s played. 14 in 15 games if you don’t count the two passes he took in Minnesota as a game. This year he has 3 fumbles in 3 games. It doesn’t matter how many we have managed not to lose, that is a serious problem.
And I’m bringing it up because it is a serious problem and a legitimate concern. I can’t stand that I can’t bring up a VALID criticism of Shaun Hill – something that he’s been poor at during his entire career as a starter and something that he continues to show major problems dealing with – without being flamed and called a hater.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions
The only fumble
came when Hill was ready to pass and Jared Allen ran right over Staley and tipped the ball out of his hand from behind. You proved your anti-Hill baloney with the stats you had at the ready. Hill fumbling is not a serious problem — only in your own mind.
Kezarvet
I didn’t have those at the ready. I looked them up while I was typing the comment. Yahoo has those stats at the ready. Yahoo must therefore hate Shaun Hill.
And you can’t justify Hill fumbling by saying that he was ready to pass. So he was ready to pass 14 times in the last 15 games he’s played. Maybe he should pay more attention to the pass rush. Other quarterbacks don’t seem to have any problems doing it.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Shaun Hill
Let me shed some perspective on the situation. I can see points from both arguments. But let’s take in to consideration that Hill does not have a ton of in-game experience. He is still learning the NFL, speed of the game, etc. In many ways he is like a rookie as far as experience goes. Also, Hill isn’ the sole reason why he has fumbled. You take a guy like Brady or Manning who have superior O-lines to protect and factor that in. The NIners line is young and haven’t worked as a unit for that long. All three of Hill’s fumbles have been knocked out of his hand from behind. Now with that being said, on Hill’s behalf, he has a lot of work to do and he needs to work on his pocket presence. I did see improvement this week against Minnesota. There were a couple different occasions where he stepped up in the pocket and fired to Davis. He’s not there yet but I do stress yet… He almost got another game winning drive if it wasn’t for that &#!%$ of a QB for the other team.
Let’s take a look at the rest of the league regarding fumbles
T. EDWARDS (0)
PENNINGTON (3- LOST 2)
BRADY (0)
SANCHEZ (4- LOST 1)
FLACCO (2- LOST 0)
PALMER (1- LOST 0)
QUINN (2- LOST 2)
ROETHLISBERGER (0)
SCHAUB (0)
P. MANNING (1- LOST 0)
GERRARD (3- LOST 1)
COLLINS (1- LOST 1)
ORTON (0)
CASSEL (1- LOST 0)
RUSSELL (0)
RIVERS (1- LOST 1)
ROMO (0)
E. MANNING (2- LOST 1)
EAGLES- N/A
CAMPBELL (3- LOST 1)
CUTLER (3- LOST 1)
STAFFORD (1- LOST 0)
RODGERS (1- LOST 0)
F*!@%VRE (128- LOST 56) HAHA J/K (0) THOSE ARE HIS CAREER #’S
RYAN (0)
DELHOMME (1- LOST 1)
BREES (3- LOST 1)
LEFTWICH (2- LOST 0)
WARNER (2- LOST 0)
BULGER (2- LOST 1)
HASSELBECK (0)
HILL (3- LOST 1)
So you see… this doesn’t equal Hill is a terrible QB. It simply means that there are a compilation of things that have happened to cause these things. One of which, he IS reponsible for (his pocket awareness)…he is young in the NFL tho (not in age) and he can improve. I liked what I saw against the Vikes. If he had his number called more often 30-40 times, his numbers would reflect similar numbers to the ones we see with some of the QB’s that throw for 300 yards a game.
And...
bad play-calling that we had on the last possession that we had the ball certainly didn’t help out Hill’s campaign; 3 run plays in a row again Jimmy? Where’s the nail in the coffin type of mentality? (To add to the last portion of the 1st paragragh)
I absolutely think that Hill can improve, and I agree that there are other factors at play. I also think it’s important how miniscule the three game sample is. I don’t think that Saints fans are worried that Brees has fumbled three times in three games, after all.
What concerns me more is that it’s been a problem with him the entire time he’s been playing with the team and not just this year. 15 games is still not THAT big of a sample, but it’s edging toward trend and it’s the only sample we have for him.
It’s not a deal breaker (yet), and like I’ve tried to say I’m not saying that it means Hill is bad. I just think that it is a legitimate concern and a clear area where 1) he can hurt the team rather severely, and 2) he CAN improve.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I just try to
see the positives that he is accomplishing. 15 games is still a small sample size when you’re talking about over 3 diff seasons and 3 different OC’s. If you look at it in comparison to what Alex Smith did in a similiar situation, Hill looks 100 times better in hindsight. I also think that if he was getting 30+ passes a game and had some better receivers to throw to, his numbers would be above the middle of the pack. The offensive line has proven they are decent with the run blocking but there is definitely room to improve in the pass blocking. It’s not Hill’s fault or the O-lines fault when our receivers cannot get open. Hill has only walked in to a couple sacks out of the times he has been; the rest have been coverage sacks. When considering everything, I think alot falls on the QB’s in the league when things don’t go the teams way. But on the flip side of that, people are consistently saying that wins and losses aren’t a QB stat…this always confuses me cause it’s like, “which one is it?”.
And then there is the argument well a QB CAN lose a game via INT’s, fumbles, incompletes, etc..but never factor in things like the QB was hurried 28 times in the game and sacked 4, ya know…. I don’t know, I think its an easy cop out to blame the QB when things don’t go as planned. But Shaun did not lose us that last game and in fact almost pulled another one off for us with a late drive for a TD to Vernon
Drew,
Hill’s numbers ARE above the middle of the pack. In fact, he is the #11 rated QB in the NFL as we speak with a passer rating just under 90. Hill had actually outplayed Favre until the final 0:02, and did all he could do to win it.
Kezarvet
passer rating is flawed in some ways
I don’t think it measures drops or spikes to kill the clock. Really there are a multitude of factors that affect the base stats that are used.
Passer rating IS flawed...in some ways
I am in full support of Hill but I am not gonna pretend that he is anywhere near where he could be. His pocket presence needs work, his awareness, and quicker decision making will all come with more experience…
I am mainly referencing his passing yards and yards per attempt. Once he gets some weapons in thier at receiver, the numbers will go up. If we can get a game breaker like Deshaun Jackson or Steve Smith, then the offense will be exxxtttttrrrreeeeemely dangerous.
But like I suggested to howtheyscored, there are other factors to consider when evaluating Hill (i.e. the young offensive line and lack of talent at the WR position right now). I think that will change in the draft and we should get something for Crabtree as well.
Hill had actually outplayed Favre until the final 0:02, and did all he could do to win it.
I will say that Favre did drive his team downfield to give his team a chance to win. He also had more passing yards. But I atribute that the lack of plays that Hill gets. If we get better receivers, that will all change.
you don’t have to convince me…trust me I see Hill’s potential but he is still a baby in the NFL as far as experience goes….and also I think given that this is his third OC in 3 years, he definitely outshines Alex Smith by far, far, far.
Seemed like there were a bunch of 3rd and longs
where the 9rs knew it would be a pass and he still got a bunch of them.
He did the EXACT...
… same thing last week. Two in two weeks isn’t a dire problem, but it is a VERY big problem.
I said that I’m not calling him a turnover machine. I did NOT call him a turnover machine and said that I did NOT call him a turnover machine. How can you possibly now be saying that I called him a turnover machine???
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Jesus Christ you two!
You’re acting like a couple of kids. howtheyscored, just realize that kezarvet is talking out of his @$$ and let it go. I mean, the guy thinks the niners would let Gore play with a high ankle sprain. *motions twirling fingers at temple
:)
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
You're the one talking out of your ass.
Where did I ever say that the Niners should let Gore play with a high ankle sprain. You need to stay off the meds or take a course in reading comprehension.
Gore will be out for a minimum of a month if he really has a high ankle sprain and Coffee is not the punishing runner that Gore is now.
In my opinion, they need to activate Sheets and get Robinson more involved, especially as a receiver out of the backfield. The second half of last season he caught 17 passes for 201 yards, an 11.9 average which was #3 in the NFL among RBs with 10 or more receptions.
Kezarvet
Okay, let’s please watch the a-bombs lest they lose a little sphincter control and turn into s-bombs down the line. I may or may not agree with any individual person, but I will objectively uphold the site decorum standards when necessary.
And for the record, I don’t tend to mind the use of the A word on this site, but when they get thrown around in an insulting way is when it starts to be a problem.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Reading comprehension... LOL...
Dude, half of your rant here was based on your own reading comprehension skills. That’s all I’m going to say. But please recognize that I had 3 truly witty but universally degrading taunts that I almost wrote.
I also think that Hill gave them reasons to run the ball
He also gave them reason to trust him when he converted on that 4th and 1 to morgan for a 25 yard gain…
I can kinda see your point, but I think good coaches go for the throat when the other team is barely clinging to life…kinda like Mortal Kombat “FINISH HIM!”
I think that its not just the players that learn
things from a loss but hopefully the coaches as well. That’s what was great about Singletary when he was a player, he found everyone of his weaknesses and fine tuned them and made them his strengths. It’s only natural to assume that he will do the same in the way he coaches
I agree. Again, I’m trying to be honest about Hill here, but not to condemn him. I’ve said again and again that I wanted to see him throw the ball there, but I’m also not going to pretend like he made it the easiest decision in the world.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 29, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions
When they won
Jimmy’s playcalling was also called into question…..
We have been criticizing him since the pre-season
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Sep 28, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Right.
That last 15 play drive to win in Arizona, nobody questioned.
Same with Gore’s two TD runs against Seattle.
BTW: In Phoenix, they’re not questioning the playcalling for the last two series. They’re questioning the playcalling for almost the entire game (not near enough running against Indy).
Nobody said they questioned individual drives. The fact is that there has been a LOT of complaint regarding the overall playcalling during the first two – and now three – games. chikmagnet_565 is not exaggerating. Simply running through the FanPost titles for the last two weeks shows this to be true.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's the breakdown:
In their three games, the 49ers have been:
45% Run.
52% Run.
51% Run.
Some people actually think they are 60% Run. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Their opponents in thos three games?
72% Pass.
64% Pass.
63% Pass.
Considering that SF was a few seconds from being 3-0 (and are currently 2-1) maybe the fact that they are much better balanced than their opponents says something.
Hey look at this..
GeoMak’s posting stats on games he didn’t even watch.
Nice.
Well, we're waiting....
LOL..
I mean, those stats are pretty superflous if you actually watched how effective the run game was in 2 games,
Well, we're waiting....
Dude. I don't know what you're talking about here
(No surprise there).
I’ve watched every single play the 49ers have run since Singletary took over as HC last season.
Your comment (GeoMak’s posting stats on games he didn’t even watch) is just more of your usual nonsense.
Really. Did you think that I DIDN’T watch these games?
Too funny.
LOL..
What’s funny is that you don’t realize that almost every 49er fan here question’s the playcalling during the game, and then ruminate over the playcalling, with even Danny posting something real meaty stats that really reflect the games.
Your stats show you don’t know what you’re watching, if you watch the games at all.
Nice.
Well, we're waiting....
Say What?
Listen DUDE, almost EVERY fan of almost every team during almost EVERY game questions the playcalling of their team DURING the game.
DUH!
That’s pretty much all these wanna-be coaches do.
You kill me son. You really do.
You should have an act at a local comedy club or something.
(WOW! Imagine that! Fans questioning the playcalling during a game)!!!!!!!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Hey, look at this...
Geo just posted. It doesn’t add anything to the conversation (per usual), yet it’s always fun to watch.
Well, we're waiting....
No that's YOU drummer
I post about ratios and YOU come up with some nonsense about me not watching the games.
Don’t believe it? Just go back and look at the thread.
What an absolute joke you are.
All you do is attack me with complete nonsense.
You amuse me my little friend.
(Fans questioning the playcalling. Imagine that)!
Absolutely HYSTERICAL.
(The best part is that you wrote it in all seriousness).
Don't worry drummer
I don’t take you seriously at all. As a football fan, you’re a pretty funny comedian.
Honestly, I can’t stop laughing over your brilliant observation about fans questioning the playcalling.
That one’s PRICELESS!
LOL
Of course fans will question play calling, does that mean we’re wrong?
by mr. instigator on Sep 28, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Nobody questioned the concentration of passes to runs either. We’ve been complaining pretty loudly about the TYPES of runs and passes called, not the fact that runs are being called or that passes are being called. I haven’t seen a single person complain about the run/pass ratio.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay: NOBODY is a strong word. I really should make sure I say “most people” or “a large majority”. Being hyperbolic to the point of being all-inclusive or exclusionary is a good way for me to say things that are categorically wrong.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 28, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Nobody isn't that strong in this situation.
I haven’t heard ANYONE complain about the run/pass ratio
People complain mostly about the types of running plays.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Sep 28, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Raye...
… fails with play action calls. Example was early in the first quarter (I think) where the 49ers had a 3rd and VERY short (1 yard, maybe 2). If you’re going to pass in that instance as the 49ers, you’d think they’d at LEAST fake the hand-off. Instead, Hill does a straight drop back and they fail to convert.
I’m not saying the playaction would have helped for sure, but I can’t see how keeping the LBs and safeties honest could have hurt.
In any case, I agree that most people are complaining about the types of plays.
Ditto
I’m not against going hog wild on the run to shut a game down, kill the clock and demoralize our opponents. I’m against running the same ineffective run plays ad nauseum while giving our opponents a last chance to win the game because we can’t put the nail in the coffin.
by mr. instigator on Sep 28, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Silver Lining
Vernon Davis jerseys are really cheap right now and I’m probably going to get one.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
yeah I have one from the year we drafted him
I think I can finally wear it with a little pride now :)
It was Johnny Hopkins, and Sloan Kettering, and they were blazin that s*** up everyday.
Third Down Efficiency
The niners were 0 for 11 on 3rd down. Did anyone think they were going to get a first down when it was 3 and 6? Sing trusts his defense more than he trust Hill.
A high percentage pass play gets that first down alot more often than a run up the middle. And whats the risk? If the pass isn’t there take the sack, and the vikes still need to use their timeout, complete the pass and not make the first down, still vikes use timeout. Incomplete pass, saves a timeout. Next week if the Rams need to make a first down to win the game sitting at 3 and 6, (assuming Bulger is still out) Kyle Boller throws the football to Jackson in the flat
That's the exact same thing I said on another post.
People forget that on passing plays the QB can always take the sack and keep the clock running.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Sep 28, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
This is the first time I have criticized Jimmy Raye's
play calling this season. I understand what they are trying to do, but this was calling plays NOT TO LOSE, instead of TO WIN.
Kezarvet
This
Is the 3rd game I’ve questioned his play calling this season, because he does not know what he’s doing up there in that booth. He’s a clown.
by mr. instigator on Sep 28, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
In all 3 games Ive questioned his play calling as well but I also believe he has had his moments, like the play action on 1st down that resulted in a touchdown. The whole defense was not expecting that since we rarely throw on first down. I also think that running up the middle is way too predictable yet he keeps calling it. Overall I am still skeptical about it and still dont think he was the right choice but we will see by seasons end.
YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!
lol, I’m reminded of that funny post game conference.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Sep 28, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey Kezarvet
Couldn’t agree with all your points more. Great post!
by clair channel fan on Sep 28, 2009 9:20 PM PDT reply actions
And why is no one
even talking about the Dre Bly dropped interception that would have gone for a touchdown and iced the game?
by clair channel fan on Sep 28, 2009 9:29 PM PDT reply actions
INT
Because he’s not the first and won’t be the last DB to drop a potential INT. As somebody once said on one of these pre or post-game shows, DBs are WRs who can’t catch the ball.
by David Fucillo on Sep 28, 2009 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
And that's more nonsense from people that don't know
That kind of nonsense was said of Devin Hester. He hasn’t dropped a ball all season.
DB’s are (usually) DB’s because, as a rule, they are the best athletes on the field, not because they can’t catch a football.
How does Devin Hester enter this conversation?
by mr. instigator on Sep 28, 2009 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s a Bear.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 29, 2009 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions
BTW
DB’s are the best athletes on the field? Since when? LOL, that statement sounds like nonsense to me. I guess when Mike Vick, Randy Moss or Adrian Peterson are on the field they’re trumped by the DB’s. As Jim Rome would say “Hilarrrious.”
by mr. instigator on Sep 28, 2009 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think...
… Geo’s statements are that far off. CBs are ridiculously talented individuals, on the whole. If you want to pull out examples, then it’s easy to pull out defensive backs, especially corners, that are just as if not more athletic.
I’m not saying the statement is 100% true or anything, I just don’t think it sounds anything remotely close to nonsense. CBs have to react to WRs movements. The WRs know where they’re going, the CBs don’t, thus they have to compensate with physical ability (as well as some luck in predicting).
Vernon Davis
I love me some Vernon Davis, but he becomes a star when he does that more than in one game.
This.
I don’t know why so many people are so quick to say he’s broken out. He had a REALLY good game. He needs to continue to do that in order to be star.
And by "that"
I’m not implying he needs two TDs every game (as that’d be ridiculous). He just needs to show up in the game in meaningful situations like he did Sunday.
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