49ers Head Coach Candidates: Is Marty Mornhinweg The Next Bill Belichick?
Before anybody flips out about me comparing current Eagles OC and former Lions coaching failure Marty Mornhinweg with Patriots coach Bill Belichick, give me a minute to explain. Thus far we've focused primarily on the 49ers 2011 general manager search. That discussion has naturally led to a lot of Jim Harbaugh discussion. However, recently the conversation has taken a turn towards Philadelphia Eagles offensive coordinator Marty Mornhinweg. Some folks here have mentioned interest in him and recently John Clayton mentioned him over at ESPN, while Jason LaCanfora briefly tweeted that it was a distinct possibility.
The mention of Mornhinweg has sent many folks into a bit of apoplectic shock. He was a brutal failure with the Detroit Lions and the links don't paint a pretty picture (thanks to bignerd for finding these):
A look back in incredulity: Marty Mornhinweg
Millen, Mornhinweg take the wheel
Should Marty Mornhinweg get another shot at the big job?
Mornhinweg kicks Lions out of practice after 35 minutes
Whether it's the 5-27 record with the Lions, or his lame attempt to motivate them by leaving practice on a Harley, the Mornhinweg era in Detroit is hardly even good enough to call it simply a failure. Disaster is a better word. Matt Millen had plenty to do with it, but Mornhinweg was an equal contributor during his stretch. Although he's found success lately in Philadelphia, the Detroit stench remains.
So given all that stink, where is the Belichick comparison? I point you to a pair of articles. The first is an ESPN Insider article return2greatness found (written this past January). I'll break down the key points so if you don't have an Insider password don't worry. The second article is a free ESPN article about Belichick's days in Cleveland where he was a bit of a failure. The first article looks to use some cold, hard numbers to figure out a quantitative method for finding great head coaches.
In the first article, Seth Wickersham stated that NFL teams and independent researchers had looked at over 100 NFL head coaches to try and determine what factors went into making great head coaches. I haven't seen the report that produced this and the details are a bit fuzzy in some instances. I showed the article to Florida Danny and he looked at this as a type of profiling that's using causation in a backwards manner. However, I thought it was worth at least exploring as we consider a guy mentioned in connection with the 49ers. It makes a couple points outside the statistical research that I think are worthy. But first, a quick look at the article so people know the context from where I'm coming.
Apparently this research revealed that successful head coaches have possessed at least one of the four following characteristics:
1. They were between ages 41 and 49.
2. They had at least 11 years of NFL coaching experience.
3. They were assistants on teams that won at least 50 games over a five-year span.
4. They had only one previous NFL head-coaching gig.
Wickersham then applied these characteristics to assistants available for head coaching jobs last offseason and Marty Mornhinweg was the only candidate to meet all four. In regards to the first two characteristics, Wickersham stated that:
For starters, the 47-year-old has spent 15 years in the league, including the past four as Eagles' offensive coordinator. According to Robert Boland, the sports management prof who spearheaded that 2007 NYU study, those two data points represent the ideal intersection of age (41-49) and NFL coaching experience (at least 11 years) ...
The reasoning is simple: A coach in his 40s with more than a decade of NFL experience has the ideal mix of managerial competence and personal confidence to lead a team. He's young enough to relate to players but old enough to command respect.
In regards to the fourth characteristic, Wickersham stated:
According to the NYU researchers, coaches who were fired or resigned from their first head coaching job often thrived in their second. Since 1992, 35 of these so-called "once-over retreads" have won 57% of their games ...
Successful retreads also clear two major hurdles: Many once-over retreads will identify the external pitfalls that contributed to their firing while addressing the personal traits that caused them to fail.
This is where Bill Belichick comes into the picture. He was a failure in Cleveland in part because of personal failings. He struggled to deal with his players on the right level and it in part cost him their loyalty to a certain degree. When he went to New England he found success in large part because of Tom Brady, but also because he learned how to manage people better. The Bledsoe/Brady dynamic could have been a complete disaster. Bledsoe handled the situation well, but a wrong move by Belichick could have destroyed that.
The article also points to Tom Coughlin as another example. In Jacksonville, Coughlin was a harsh disciplinarian, and when he moved on to the New York Giants he apparently adapted to the situation and brought it down a notch.
As some of those Mornhinweg links above point out, he had some issues in dealing with his players and it cost him:
For his part, Mornhinweg has spent the past seven years learning from the mess in Detroit. By watching Reid, he's figured out how to become a more consistent leader. He has a better sense of owners and prefers those who talk directly with their coach, which didn't happen with the Lions ...
Despite his secondary role, he preps for press conferences so that he's a more disciplined spokesman. During each session, he mentions specific characteristics of upcoming opponents so that his players will remember them if they hear his quotes.
Now this is not to say that Marty Mornhinweg will be an overnight success if he gets a second chance as a head coach. This is one study and who knows what kind of errors might exist. Furthermore, even if this study is accurate, there are always statistical outliers. Marty Mornhinweg might just not be meant to be a head coach. Maybe he's a better coordinator. The Eagles have an explosive offense this year, but I think even Jimmy Raye could make something happen with the likes of Michael Vick and Desean Jackson (ok, maybe not).
However, is it wise to immediately dismiss MM so quickly? Hiring MM doesn't have the flash of a Jim Harbaugh, but maybe there's something to him worth considering. One interesting aspect to him is his knowledge of the West Coast offense through his work outside of Detroit. What's to say he's not the guy to bring it back to the Bay Area?
I'm not advocating for Marty Mornhinweg at this point. I'm still in the Harbaugh camp even as that situation gets more and more bizarre by the day. However, given the way all this is unfolding, anything could happen in the GM and head coach search and it wouldn't surprise me, so we might as well be prepared for anything.
2004-present: Assistant Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator, Philadelphia Eagles
2003: Senior Assistant, Philadelphia Eagles
2001-02: Head Coach, Detroit Lions
1997-00: OC/QBs, San Francisco 49ers
1996: QBs, Green Bay Packers
1995: Offensive Asst/Quality Control, Green Bay Packers
1994: OC, Northern Arizona
1991-93: Tight Ends/Offensive Line, Missouri
1989-90: OC/QBs, SE Missouri State
1988: Running Backs, Northern Arizona
1987:
Quarterback (player), Denver Dynamite (AFL)
1986-87: Grad Asst, UTEP
1985: Receivers, Montana
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We could do worse!
We’re not even done with the season yet and this search has been filled with more rumors than a checkout line magazine! If morningwig can bring a functional modern offense with him I say why not! It’s not the sexiest pick but are the grudens of the world really blowing up jeds phone?
I've always liked MM
and was surprised by the outcome in Detroit. My preference is Harbaugh, but I think Mornhinweg would do much better than most at the Niners with a good GM/Owner situation.
"(I)f you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinsky
48 hours would be today..........
is baalke going to be announced as the gm today?
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
No more recycling of coaches please
We have time before the draft, so we do not have to rush. But we do have to make sure that we get right this time.
Here's money for a cab. Now entering sleep mode. beep beep beep zzzzzzzzz
Actually, after this weekend.. several other teams will be looking at new HCs. So it makes the new GM and new HC decisions ones we want to do sooner rather than later.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I don't think so
We have to get it right from GM to QB this time. We have weapons on offense and need a few pieces on defense. Next to Dallas and Minnesota we have the fewest draft needs but have to get the signal caller. Oh yeah NFC West, so we do this right and we are playoff bound looking for a way to get into the Super Bowl hunt.
Here's money for a cab. Now entering sleep mode. beep beep beep zzzzzzzzz
1996 - 2000
He coached some really good QB’s. And the QB’s he’s coaching now are pretty damn good
by EcERyda69 on Dec 31, 2010 7:01 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Big questin
Trust me, I have no idea either.
Nitwitter
by Tre9er on Dec 31, 2010 7:07 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I would love MM
He was given too much too soon in Detroit. He’s learned his craft with Reid and the Eagles and I think he would be a great coach for the 49ers.
"That's like Swede on Swede violence."-Randy Hahn
"Time for the laser show, boys!"- Aubrey Huff
2010 World Series Champions San Francisco Giants
Ugh
Can’t disagree more. Some people are made to be head coaches. Some just are not (see: Singletary, Mike).
Mohrnewig (or whatever) seems more like the latter. That’s all this organization needs: a guy who’s just not ready or capable of being a head coach.
Agree. His offense would be similar to Andy Reid’s, who is an EXCELLENT head coach and coordinator. 4 years under Reid is great experience, I wouldn’t mind MM.
by BayLife5518 on Dec 31, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
I should have mentioned, I wouldn’t mind MM if Harbaugh goes elsewhere.
by BayLife5518 on Dec 31, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
Nah... no thanks.
I am tired of losing season’s. His track record suggests nothing more than that as a HC.
Some of us will do our jobs well and some will not, but we will be judged by only one thing -- the result. -Lombardi
Belichick
was 36-44 with the Browns… hardly a good record. What if no one gave him another shot?
I’m not saying they are the same person but just because he was bad in Detroit, doesn’t mean he hasn’t learned his lesson.
If we don’t get Harbaugh, MM is my second choice.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 8:23 AM PST up reply actions
well to be truthful
Saying that any bad coach COULD be another Belichick is like a 6th round draft choice COULD be Tom Brady. The odds are not good. Anything is possiple, but my money is not on them.
I think I am cool with a rookie head coach, as long as they can get some veteran assistants to help out. But I would cheer on Marinelli, er Mornhinweg, whatever…
I'm not saying he COULD be the next Belichick..
just pointing out that just because someone fails at something the first time doesn’t mean they can’t succeed the second time.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:01 AM PST up reply actions
and I'm pointing out that success is not likely
if he has figured things, then it will show in his interview. If he is hired, I will support him.
As will I
and I’m sure the time he’s spent with Andy Reid has helped him… or at least, I hope.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
What he learned
The secret to a good philly cheese steak is extra mayo and dip it in ranch. Now you try Marty
no way....
the secret is a little mayo, cheese whiz and some sauteed onions.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:13 AM PST up reply actions
Gravy?
you mean red sauce? I live in Philly, not many places include sauce. There is a place on South Street called Jim’s… best steaks in town IMO. A lot of out-of-towners will tell you Gino’s or Pat’s are the best but I think they are terrible.
As for Fast Eddy’s, once I relocate to CA I’ll be sure to check it out and compare to my Philly experiences. Then I’ll report back with my results
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
In Los Gatos you’re going to be eating Chinese and Mexican food
by mcwagner on Dec 31, 2010 2:29 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Does this mean if we hire MM as HC then they will start serving Philly Cheese Steak at the stadium?
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Harbaugh can’t deliver everything
by mcwagner on Dec 31, 2010 2:28 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, but
…why do WE have to be the team to give him his second chance? That seems like a pretty big gamble to take with an organization that has suffered from bad coaching for a long time.
I would much rather have someone who has been successful, even if only at the college level (hint: I’m a Harbaugh guy!).
True
I’m also on the Harbaugh bandwagon. I don’t know if MM would be the best choice, simply stating that he wouldn’t be a horrible one.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
LOL at this article
comparing Morningwheg with Billicheck based on his age and number of years in the NFL: ouch my sides hurt from laughing so much.
Marty is a classic case of a good Offensive Co-ordinator who can never be a good Head Coach. If we could get him as OC, I would be for it, but according to NFL rules, he could only be hired as Head Coach.
by suffrin9erfan on Dec 31, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
track record?
He had two losing seasons. I suppose that technically his his HC track record, but it seems worth the thought that maybe he’s developed better habits over his years in Philly. Not saying he has, but at least worth pondering.
by David Fucillo on Dec 31, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed
Who has had a winning HC record in DET? We all know Mooch was a good HC, he flopped in DET too. MM is not the same coach now as he was then, I would think.
by BayLife5518 on Dec 31, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
I'd love to have Marty in San Fran
Especially if we’re going to bring in a young QB soon. He has one of the best track records with young QB’s in NFL history.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
And I mean CHANGING young QB's
Not just getting lucky by having great ones. He’s also one of the best offensive minds in the business.
Rays in '08.... Desmond Jennings - the breakout continues.....
by youALREADYknow on Dec 31, 2010 8:28 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, but
…maybe that’s his peak, being an OC and a quarterbacks coach.
The shutting down practice and leaving on a Harley thing really shows a complete lack of maturity. It’s almost like droppin’ your pants during a halftime speech.
I just want someone who’s mature and competent. I don’t think we need an “offensive genius”. Even an average coach would’ve probably gotten the Niners into the playoffs this year.
but maybe it isn't...
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, but...
the only evidence that we have is that OC is his peak.
It just seems too damn risky to me to give a guy who failed so spectacularly his second chance with this particular team, which has suffered from bad coaching for so long.
I really just want someone who is halfway decent and MM has only demonstrated mediocrity as a HC.
He would be a disaster
he cannot be a successful Head Coach, period. OC is what he can do well.
by suffrin9erfan on Dec 31, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
its his history that scares me
I am of the thought that good head coaches are either taken up, or have not been discovered. Maybe his time in PHI with Reid has helped him a lot, like shaking his head when Reid doesn’t call a timeout.
NO! NO! NO!
No more silly shenanigans, Please! Dropping your pants, storming off on a Harley, what have the Niners become? Please, please someone with a sound football IQ Please!
by FiveAlarmFreddy on Dec 31, 2010 8:56 AM PST reply actions
people can learn from their mistakes
as posted above, Bill Belichick didn’t fare well in his first coaching job.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 8:59 AM PST up reply actions
Capricious behavior should not overshadow his game-calling ability.
I’m not saying he’s the next great thing.. just making the argument that he might be a good HC.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
If he has an assistant HC that gets the players and stockpiles defensive talent, he could be good. He never had a good quarterback to help him even though that is his strength
or a good GM
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:09 AM PST up reply actions
haha
well if the GM stockpiles the defensive talent then he woudln’t need a good assistant HC to do it right?
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:11 AM PST up reply actions
I think I overlooked your sarcasm there...
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
The good assistant is going to laugh off him riding motorcycles to the players to make them think its a stunt, or prank. He will also tell Marty how to handle the guys, as that was a problem of his. Also he concentrated too much on offense and had no one on defense, the GM has to take care of that. Get him a good QB and the offense will be ready to go
mcwagner
for Asst. HC…. as long as you get me free season tix
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
coach. why is coach sing taking his pants off?
Oh that? Um… its an old thing they did in football. Oh yeah. Lombardi did it all the time. It shows trust to the players as they are vulnerable
lol
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
So...dropping trou is taboo, but dogfighting isn't?
Otherwise, why would anyone on this board want to offer the moon to Michael Vick?
In my experience ...
… people with the same initials are not to be trusted. MM. It’s not a good sign. I’ve disliked almost everyone I’ve ever met who has the same letter at the start of their first and last names. On that basis alone, I’m against any move for Mornhinweg.
Proud member of the legendary David Carr thread and the famous Green Thread.
Co-author of drummer's sig.
What about BB?
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:01 AM PST up reply actions
I heard he's a slimy bastard... on both counts.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:05 AM PST up reply actions
same here
Walsh was an ass to his players too. Greatest quarterback of all time has to be challenged and win his job? Get rid of guys that have done so much for you. Walsh on his deathbed said he always had the utmost respect for his men and was sorry if they did not know that. Bill may do the same thing. Its business and he understands that. He has been dumped before and it seems he is scared it will happen again
I would rather have Billick
…than Mohrneingiwgisg (god, fix your name, dude!).
At least Billick had some success as a head coach.
I don't think Billick is even a canidate is he?
then again, Jed doesn’t ususally share his thoughts with me so what do i know! haha
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
He is if you ask Drummer
In fact, Drummer has Billick all but a lock to be our next head coach.
Umm..
Tweet from La Canfora:
Hearing more legit buzz about Brian Billick as head coaching candidate than at any time since his firing by the Ravens. 49ers in particular
39 minutes ago via web
Baalke Billick 2011
"Derek Smith is #1 in Backfield Penetrations"
interesting...
Do you distrust Maiocco? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
by David Fucillo on Dec 31, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
No... no...
MY GOD NO
Please… no…
NO
-- Life is to short to take everything serious. Especially sports blogs.
by indymike on Dec 31, 2010 9:09 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
So...
you’re against this move?
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
Quit beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel!
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Bill Belichick...
…would never leave practice on a Harley. But I have to admit, Mornhinweg’s obvious knowledge of Xs and Os is intriguing. Does anyone know how much input Reid has in the playcalling? I know Mornhinweg makes the calls, but is Reid still editing the game plan like he’s done in the past?
PS
This quote from Keith Brooking gives me pause:
“The way we dominated them… they were very predictable,” Brooking said. “We knew exactly what was coming on every play.”
Sounds a little too close to Jimmy Raye for comfort.
Meh
Eagles fans are so fickle… That article was written by an Eagles fan before this season started. I feel like they have run the ball more this year than in the past so I’m inclined to think that MM was able to change his offensive mindset. Besides, he’s a diciple of the WCO which features short passes to replace the running game so the high numebr os pass attempts doesn’t scare me.
As for the quote by Brooking; if the Cowboys always knew what the Eagles were doing they wouldn’t have lost both games to them this year.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
correction:
thhe Cowboys wouldn’t have lost to them earlier in the year. The second game is sunday.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
Reid calls a lot of the plays during the game
just watch him during a game.
by suffrin9erfan on Dec 31, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions
Mornhinweg is the ONLY OC Reed has ever had that he lets call the plays.....
also according to the link below Morningweg does design all of their schemes, prepares the gameplan and call all the plays….
Also Reed on Marty
"He’s able to see players’ talents, and as opposed to harping on their weaknesses, it’s, ‘Let’s get them better at their weaknesses, but let’s exploit like crazy their strengths and put them in a position where they can go show off a little bit.’ And he’s a unique feel for that."
by thatguywiththebeardandthebanjo on Dec 31, 2010 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
+1
Definitely wouldn’t mind him as a second option to Harbaugh.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
Steve Young
Has said a few times on his show on KNBR that he thinks Marty is one of the best gameday playcallers and is the best QB coach he has had. So, he has that going for him.
BUT, he could end up being a Norv Turner, great OC or QB developer, but horrible HC.
I'm sold
I think the guy could do good things here. Lots of coaches have screwed up before. The NFL is cyclical. There will always be good teams and bad teams. I don’t see why his 01-02 record precludes him from getting another shot.
I like Harbaugh better, but if he falls through, Mornhinweg is my second choice right now, since Gruden in all likelihood won’t be available.
No more mock draft sig for now...
Eeek
At least we could be assured that he was an “X’s and O’s” kind of guy.
So let me see if I understand this.We don’t want any inexperienced Head Coaches or any retread Head Coaches.Or any that ride a Harley (I would have been more concerned if it had been a crotch rocket ).
But Harbaugh is an exception to the experience rule because he coaches at Stanford where Bill did.(Maybe some of the geniusness was hanging around for him to soak up)
I’m just glad that it isn’t going to be put up for a vote or we could end up with a hanging chad situation. GO NINERS
I wouldn't mind a retread coach
If his name were Cowher or Billick or even Gruden (although he’s low on my personal list). I just want someone who HAS been a head coach and has been successful at it. MM does NOT fit that criteria, but Harbaugh does, even if, as I said, his experience is limited to college coaching.
And Harbaugh is a Walsh disciple: http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_16895170?nclick_check=1
some people learn things the hard way by making mistakes
like myself.
the article gives good supporting arguments that someone like MM should be given a second shot. I would not be against it.
no third chances though for Dennis Erickson………….
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
who calls the plays in philly?
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
Another Good West Coast Offense guy
He would probably be a good fit. He would open up or offense to be sure.
Jay Cruise
Holistic Healing Mind Body Spirit Arthritis Relief
Who's Bust?
Haven’t heard of him. Muhaha
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
Billick = Bust?
good one.
Your sig also says “Baalke Billick 2011” yet yesterday you were saying you didn’t want Baalke… So is this your prediction or who you want to see next year? It’s all very confusing..
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
I want Harbaugh..
Baalke wouldn’t matter as much, and would be a good fit with him. My sig reflects the idea of what could happen if Harbaugh wasn’t in the bag.
What I was trying to point out is yesterday’s thread was that some fans were trying to “oversell” Baalke, and trying to paint a picture of him without a true palette. Painting a false picture, if you will. What I was also pointing out, and my sig also reflects this, is Baalke as a GM without Harbaugh, and on his own. The GM is a crucial decision, and without the catch of Harbaugh, is even more crucial. Heck, we don’t know if Harbaugh Baalke would work out either. That’s a leap of faith from me right there.
I’m just very cynical when it comes to a York.
Baalke Billick 2011
"Derek Smith is #1 in Backfield Penetrations"
I too am cynical when it comes to a Yorkie.. they bite my ankles too much.
In all seriousness though, I get what you’re saying. As I’ve stated before, I’m fully on the Harbaugh bandwagon too. I’m not a fan of the Billick idea and would rather see MM as coach, but hopefully we don’t have to worry about that since we’ll have Harbaugh in the fold. Got my fingers crossed
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
Did not recognize your new pic. You really think we’re going to end up with Billick? That would be 3/3 on trying to be Ravens west.
Thank you SF Giants for an incredible 2010 season and painting the City orange & black!
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
I vow to never mention "playoffs" and "49ers" together again until we have a "quarterback."
Just me being my usual cynical self....
and yes, it would complete the Trifecta of BAL West. Without Ozzie.
Baalke Billick 2011
"Derek Smith is #1 in Backfield Penetrations"
Would happily take Ozzie
And in return give the Ravens all that we paid Nolan and Sing.
Thank you SF Giants for an incredible 2010 season and painting the City orange & black!
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
I vow to never mention "playoffs" and "49ers" together again until we have a "quarterback."
Something to think about...
Of the Niners’ head coaches, only two had ANY NFL head coaching experience when they came here – Dennis Erickson (Seahawks, 1995-98) and Red Strader (New York Yanks, 1950-51). In fact, when the Niners hired John McVay as personnel guru in 1980, he was the first former NFL HC (Giants, 1976-78) they had hired in decades.
This article suffers from a Logical fallacy
Bellicheck failing at Cleveland then succeeding at New England does not imply MM failing at Detroit and then succeeding in San Francisco.
the article
The espn article does have plenty of issues but it does more than make that single implication. It points to multiple factors.
by David Fucillo on Dec 31, 2010 11:40 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I was going on the title of this blog post, not the ESPN article
“Is Marty Mornhinweg The Next Bill Belichick?”
There’s no way of knowing based on MM’s past history. They are very different people with different Coaching styles. MM’s personality is unsuited, IMO to him ever being a successful Head Coach, Billicheck’s personality is close to the ideal.
by suffrin9erfan on Dec 31, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
my post
Did you read the article about Belichick’s previous problems in Cleveland? He found ways to change how he dealt with people.
That’s not to say MM can replicate that, which is why I said this:
Now this is not to say that Marty Mornhinweg will be an overnight success if he gets a second chance as a head coach. This is one study and who knows what kind of errors might exist. Furthermore, even if this study is accurate, there are always statistical outliers. Marty Mornhinweg might just not be meant to be a head coach. Maybe he’s a better coordinator. The Eagles have an explosive offense this year, but I think even Jimmy Raye could make something happen with the likes of Michael Vick and Desean Jackson (ok, maybe not).
by David Fucillo on Dec 31, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
It’s always possible that someone can do a job better second time around, but even if you discount his time at Detroit (which I’m willing to do, as being at either Detroit or Cleveland can make anyone look bad), there are question marks about his abilities.
His first two years as the Niners OC were marked by 13-3 and 12-4 seasons, but, when Steve Young went out for most of 99 and then retired and, in Marty’s last season in 2000, they went 4-12 and 6-10. So how much of that early success was down to Young running an offense he knew by heart at that point and how much was down to Marty? I remember how poorly the offense played after Steve went out and a lot of the blame was placed on Marty’s shoulders, along with Mooch’s Conservative approach.
The same applies to his time with the Eagles: how much of that success is down to Andy Reid? By all accounts, Reid handed Marty the play calling reins at the end of 2006 (when they lost to the Saints in the NFC divisional round ) and for all of 2007, but the Eagles only managed to go 8-8 with Marty calling the plays for a whole season. Since then, it seems like Reid has taken over the play-calling duties again.
by suffrin9erfan on Dec 31, 2010 9:02 PM PST up reply actions
How is a mere question a logical fallacy?
It’s just asking if something might be the case or not. You can answer yes or no.
It was an argument, not a question
If A is an X and A was once a Y is now a Z, it does not follow that because B is an X and was a Y that B will also become a Z.
Where: A = Bill B = Marty X = NFL Head Coach, Y = Unsuccessful Head Coach, Z = Successful Head Coach.
by suffrin9erfan on Dec 31, 2010 9:12 PM PST up reply actions
It's not a logical fallacy because it doesn't say that
First of all, the sample size isn’t limited to just Bill Belichick. The article mentions 35 coaches over the last 20 years who had success with the second team they coached. Secondly, it never implies that something magical happens to coaches during their second time around that makes them immortal to failure. The article gives a perfectly rational explanation for the statistic; guys tend to be more picky with which team they’re willing to coach with their second chance, so therefore they tend to go to a better team than the first one they coached, and a better team tends to give them a better win record than the less talented team did.
It’s not making any wild allegations or pretending that any second-term coach could be successful wherever he goes. The point of the article was just to identify factual trends such as this one.
by Chimneyfish on Dec 31, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
and yet right there toward the end it says:
“Now this is not to say that Marty Mornhinweg will be an overnight success if he gets a second chance as a head coach. This is one study and who knows what kind of errors might exist. Furthermore, even if this study is accurate, there are always statistical outliers. Marty Mornhinweg might just not be meant to be a head coach. "
d'oh
that was meant to be a reply to suffrin9erfan
If we don't land Harbaugh
I think he’s my second choice. So long as there is a clause that he is not allowed to pursue Kolb. I don’t want him.
What if...
he knows Kolb’s strenghts and is able to turn him into a very good QB? I wouldn’t shun him based on what I’ve seen in Philly so far. Plus if we don’t need to draft a QB we can fill other need positions.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
Would PHI give up Kolb?...
the 49ers would have give up a bit for him, if he wanted to play here.
Matt Flynn. With Harbaugh. Please.
Baalke Billick 2011
"Derek Smith is #1 in Backfield Penetrations"
Kolb
is a FA after the year I believe
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
I dunno..
I hear that he is still under contract for a couple. But I dunno.
Let’s go look at the film err contract!!
Baalke Billick 2011
"Derek Smith is #1 in Backfield Penetrations"
Ahhh! Sing still haunts us!
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
Via Rotowold:
4/29/2010: Signed a two-year, $12.25 million contract. The deal, fully guaranteed, included a $10.7 million signing bonus. 2010: $715,000, 2011: $1.392 million, 2012: Free Agent
Guess you’re right. He’s under contract until 2012… but I doubt the Eagles keep him after this year, especially if they plan on paying Vick.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
Then again...
they’ve already shelled out $10+ million and his base is low.. maybe they do keep him.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
He does know Kolbs strengths
That is how they won any games with him. But I have yet to be impressed by anything Kolb does. He’s inconsistent at best. I think he would be able to put him in the right situations, but I’d rather him groom a young guy. I’d even take Matt Flynn, he looks like he has some great potential.
by Virginia9er on Dec 31, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
Flynn seems fiery..
combine him with Harbaugh’s fiery attitude, and you may have the extension of the HC at QB. Which is a good thing.
Baalke Billick 2011
"Derek Smith is #1 in Backfield Penetrations"
Anything that has to do with Harbauch as 49ers HC
sounds good to me.
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
Matt Flynn has one career start. How can anyone tell anything?
Kolb has six career starts, two of which he was named NFC offensive player of the week. He’s also spent 4 years under some of the best QB developers in the game.
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MM
Pretty good article here
For the love of god, can we get a QB and a new HC?
Official president of the "Fire Jim O'Brian Fan Club"
by return2greatness on Dec 31, 2010 11:50 AM PST reply actions
Would absolutely love him
I’ve been surprised that philly’s personnel hasnt been tapped out like new englands. They’re the one of the three most consistent winners from the last decade. A heckertt/mornhinweg combo is my pipe dream
by haroldansivakumar on Dec 31, 2010 11:51 AM PST reply actions
I've been pushing for Mornhinweg for awhile now
I showed the article to Florida Danny and he looked at this as a type of profiling that’s using causation in a backwards manner.
I understand Florida Danny’s point, but “backwards causation” isn’t the correct term. Using causation in a backwards manner would mean that being a successful coach is what caused these guys to be between 41-49 years old, have 11 years NFL experience, etc. That doesn’t make any sense. I think what Florida Danny meant is that the study confuses causation with correlation.
The list would be less offensive to people if they consider what it really implies as opposed to just floating attributes. Here are what the four characteristics entail, in a more broad sense:
1. They were young enough to relate to their players but old enough to command respect.
2. They had a lot of experience coaching in the NFL.
3. They’ve been involved in an organization that had a lot of success over a long period of time, so they know how a winning team operates.
4. They haven’t proved themselves to be inept as an NFL head coach, and they have an increased incentive to be more picky about which team they choose to coach this time around.
I think everyone would agree that those are all positive attributes. When somebody has all four plus “Is the current Offensive Coordinator of one of the league’s best offenses” and “Has a track record managing great quarterbacks during some of the best seasons of their careers” (including Steve Young of course), then I’m prepared to call that person a Gold Star Candidate.
by Chimneyfish on Dec 31, 2010 12:01 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Though I find the four characteristics to be interesting, I wonder how much the success of Belichick and Shanahan in their second jobs affect this perception. Could they be the exception more than the rule?
I like MM and recall Steve Young on multiple occasions saying what an excellent play caller he is. That says great O-Coordinator. Had he not been the HC in Detroit, no doubt he’d be a rumored leading candidate for HC jobs this upcoming season.
The two areas where the comparison falls short: Belichick was able to take Cleveland to one playoff appearance and win a game, something MM did not do in DET. Secondly, Belichick learned under the hand of Parcells, one of the best motivators & game strategists of the past football generation. He also was a good evaluator of talent and assistant coaches. I don’t see coaching under Reid and Mooch as being anything close to that level, which causes me to question whether he could approach anything near the success of BB.
Thank you SF Giants for an incredible 2010 season and painting the City orange & black!
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
I vow to never mention "playoffs" and "49ers" together again until we have a "quarterback."
return2greatness found this link?
Cmon Fooch. I’ve been touting this guy and this article for a year now. Smiley even had to delete a comment more than a month ago where I posted this article. Cmon give credit where it’s due.
I’ve been backing MM longer than anyone else on this board citing this article.
comments
Sorry if I missed your link. I try and read every comment on this site but a lot of times they blend together. My focus didn’t switch to a new coach until the Rams loss so this one was at the front of my mind.
by David Fucillo on Dec 31, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions
We could do worse?
I have seen that said a coupla times in this blog. How about we try to do BETTER and not make a pick at GM that is deemed “We could do worse”. I would like to think that now that the Niners FO has the opportunity to bring in leaders who are from wining situations and can navigate the difficult job of NFL Head Coach.
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
you know it...
We’re gonna suck the traffic draw during this search.
by David Fucillo on Dec 31, 2010 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
He seems to know offense...
He’s been a part of some good ones.
Plus he’s been around.
Definitely not a horrible choice.
He’ll probably eventually get another shot anyways.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Dec 31, 2010 5:01 PM PST reply actions
Wouldn't be a bad consolation prize
for not getting Harbaugh. He certainly fits the bill of being offense oriented and experienced (sure he sucked with the Lions, but I’m willing to give him another chance).
Just a question
Do the people who think that Mornhinweg is a bad choice due to a losing record in his first two seasons as an NFL head coach apply that same standard to the fact that Harbaugh also had a losing record in his first two seasons as a Division 1 head coach? Why or why not?
A couple obvious differences are that it takes more coaching skill to be successful in the NFL than in the NCAA, and that a pro team is much less likely to retain a coach after two losing seasons than a college team is.
Danny's Quote = Awesome
Of course the article never gets into the difference between Belichick’s and Mornhinweg’s first coaching stints.
Belichick took a Browns team that hadn’t accomplished much of anything I got them a playoff appearance one. So what happened to Belichick his final year, I think he went 6-10 or 5-11? It was the year Art Modell decided he was going to move the team to Baltimore. Complete turmoil and Belichick took the axe for it.
Mornhinweg took a 9-7 Lions team who just missed the playoffs a year prior and put them in dumps. Funny, one article cites the Lions had a huge plus in the turnover category yet his teams managed to get outscored by over 150 points that season.
Lets take this study at face value. Improve his past record by 57% and he’s still a losing a coach.
Digital Garbage
He's Eagles OC right now?
Well, I know one thing: the Eagles are not good offensively due to this guy. They’re good offensively due to Michael Vick.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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They set a franchise record for points last season and that had nothing to do with Michael Vick.
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I’m not impressed.
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So he's a good offensive coordinator.
Was a terrible head coach and there is nothing other than “I’ve always liked the guy,” that illustrates anything in his favor on that front. Why would he suddenly have changed?
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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I'm making things up to suit my argument.
Shhh.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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Also, just to be clear… when ask why he would “suddenly have changed” you’re talking about 9-10 years since his head coaching stint in Detroit. It’s not really sudden by any definition.
Admittedly I thought the same as you when the Eagles first brought him on board… “That bum from Detroit!?” But then as I watched every single coach the Lions had in the next decade fail and the Eagles offense improve I started to change my mind.
That said, I’m hoping Marty isn’t in the running for one of these jobs. I’m happy with the way things are on the offensive side of the ball here in Philly.
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He failed as a head coach and he’s a good coordinator. It might have been a fluke and things might have changed, but I’m not in the business of wanting guys to get their second chances here.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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I understand that, but on the same token there’s probably a greater fail rate for college coaches getting their first shot than NFL guys getting second. I’m not sure if you’re one of the Harbaugh guys… but if you’re looking for the closest you can get to a sure thing it would seem like the prudent thing would be to stay away from the college ranks.
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