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Around SBN: Bob Sapp Denies Throwing Fights

Ndamukong Suh A Bust In The Making? History Says YES!!!

Fooch's Note: Whether you agree with the conclusions, this is a great FanPost, so I figured it was worth moving to the front page.

Big_daddy_medium

The more and more I read about Ndamukuog Suh, the more i like him.  Yet I am happy the 49ers are not in position to draft him.  History works against drafting interior linemen in the top 10 of the 1st round and it is extremely possible that despite his college dominance and freakish athletic ability,  Suh may end up a bust.  Yes I said it, A BUST.  Do I think he will? NO!!!  Yet NFL Drafts do have a way of trending together over the seasons.  Examples include when multiple QB's go in the top 5, one is almost destined to become a bust, the other is taking guards in the 1st half of the first round and the other would be interior linemen on the defensive side.

Fooch's Note: I've moved the rest of it after the jump...

Star-divide

In 1990 Cortez Kennedy was selected by the Seahawks two picks ahead of Junior Seau and well before Emmitt Smith.  Although Kennedy had an okay NFL career his selection wasn't warranted with the 3rd overall pick.  Meanwhile, both Seau and Smith ended up becoming perennial pro bowlers and future Hall of Famers.

In 1991 Russell Maryland was selected with the 1st overall pick in a draft that ended up being laden with busts, including Dan McGwire and Todd Marinovich.  Maryland did end up having a decent NFL career and even received a couple Super Bowl rings, but in terms of what you expect from the #1 overall selection he didn't live up to expectations.

In 1992, Sean Gilbert was selected by the Rams with the 3rd overall pick.  He ended up not making one single pro bowl.  Despite that fact, Gilbert was drafted ahead of Troy Vincent in what ended up to be the 2nd extremely thin draft class in 3 years.

In 1994,  Dan Wilkinson was drafted as the 1st overall pick and ended up being an incredible bust.  The irony behind this is the fact that our own San Francisco 49ers selected Bryant Young, another interior linemen, just a few picks later.  To add insult to injury Marshall Faulk was the 2nd overall pick

Teams strayed away from defensive tackles for 5 years after the bust that was "big daddy" until the Cleveland Browns selected Courtney Brown with the 1st pick in the 2000 draft. Even then Brown wasn't considered a true DT and ended up playing DE for the better part of his pedestrian career

2001 took on a little bit different of a theme as two DT's were selected in the top 10.  Gerard Warren (3rd by Cleveland) and Richard Seymour (6th by New England), although in this case neither really played the DT position.  Of the two Seymour has had a great career, but as a defensive end.  Warren had his moments but really never lived up to the 3rd pick billing.

Ryan Sims was selected by the Chiefs with the 6th pick of the 2002 draft. He ended up being an absolute bust and the last time I heard about him he was low on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers depth chart.  In terms of John Henderson, who was selected by the Jaguars with the 9th pick, he has been a darn good NFL player.  However, keep in mind that I am speaking solely about the top DT taken in each draft.

The New York Jets selected Dewayne Robertson with the 4th overall pick in the 2004 draft. Robertson, a bust in the true sense of the word, is no longer even in the NFL

Of the last 5 NFL drafts only Sedrick Ellis who was selected in 2006 by the Jets has panned out.  In some cases it is too early to tell whether or not a certain player will be worth his selection.  I really don't see Amobi Okaye panning out,  as neither have shown much in their first couple seasons in the NFL. My point is of any position, DT has the worse track record in regards to the 1st player selected at each position in the NFL draft.  While other great defensive tackles such as Kevin Williams,  Pat Williams,  Jamal WilliamsAubrayo FranklinJay Ratliff etc... have been selected way further down in the draft.

QB busts usually get the most notice because of the position, but in general the most risky top five pick would have to be a defensive tackle.  I mean this list is absolutely filled with busts.  From Shawn Gilbert to Dewayne Robertson it is a laundry list of players that failed to live up to expectations.  In some cases,  such as Robertson the selectee was an outright failure.  So when thinking about the difference between Suh and say Terrence Cody, reference this list and see where the value of waiting until later in the draft may come in.  I understand that some of these players listed had decent careers,  but is that what you're looking for with a top pick?  That's is not what I am looking for.  So for once I am glad the 49ers are not in the position of the St. Louis Rams who select 1st or the Tampa Bay Buccaneers who select 3rd,  or even the Detroit Lions who most likely will take either Suh or Mccoy depending on the 1st pick. 

Poll
Is Selecting Suh taking on a major "bust" risk?
Yes
196 votes
NO
290 votes
Your Crazy
278 votes

764 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.

Comment 54 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Wow.

Scary stuff for fans of top 5 #1 pick teams to know.

"Alex Smith doesn't inspire the Offensive Line to play well." - Random Troll on Post-Game Thread

by Hoopers Judge on Feb 21, 2010 3:13 PM PST reply actions  

Top 5 picks are scary things

which is why owners want rookie wage scales so bad.

With Suh the consensus is that he’s the best D-line prospect to come along in years. Mel Kiper says he’s the best prospect he’s seen in 32 years of covering the draft. That’s pretty high praise, so maybe he’ll be the exception to the rule.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will probably get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Feb 21, 2010 4:03 PM PST reply actions  

Let Me Make It Clear

I don’t think Suh will be a bust, this dude is an absolute beast. Yet again the same was said about Dan Wilkinson and look how that turned out. I didn’t hear what Kiper said about Suh, that is pretty high praise indeed. Especially coming from an analyst i have come to respect a great deal over the last few years.

"Cannot play with them. Cannot win with them. Cannot coach with them. Can't do it. I want winners. I want people that want to win!!!"

by nocal81(Vincent) on Feb 21, 2010 4:10 PM PST reply actions  

great diary, nocal

I am personally glad the Niners have a pick a little later this year, early picks seem to be salary cap busters

They're called RUNS for a reason.

by connie mack on Feb 21, 2010 4:19 PM PST reply actions  

Interesting research

First off, this is a great example of a FanPost. It’s a topic that probably doesn’t affect the 49ers (since the odds are likely none and none of them moving up to grab him), but it’s a great take on the subject, and I’d imagine most folks would find it interesting.

by David Fucillo on Feb 21, 2010 4:36 PM PST reply actions  

Great post

If I’m the rams, it shouldn’t be hard to make a decision here. Since that team needs an upgrade on every position except for RB, priority should be on drafting someone who they know will produce right away. And I’m sure there are plenty of players like that in the upcoming draft. With that, I think the smart thing would be to trade away this number one overall pick for two other 1st round draft picks, or something of similar value. Again, the rams are absolutely god awful in almost every position you can think of. They need upgrades everywhere.

The original poster mentioned that several of the game’s best nfl interior lineman have been drafted later in the draft, so that in itself should tell the rams a little something about drafting suh #1 overall.

by Waiting4JoshMorgan on Feb 21, 2010 5:25 PM PST reply actions  

I know this is super nazi-ish, but...

if you’re going to move a post like this to the front page, Fooch, then the least you can do is clear up some of the blindingly obvious spelling/grammar errors that plague it. Even when there is worthwhile insight, it’s hard to take it serious when it’s surrounded by grammar school English errors.

I know, dick move on my part. Just saying.

"It came down like a punt, Coach!" - Josh Morgan

by shlecko on Feb 21, 2010 6:24 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

changes

I made some adjustments to make it a bit more read-able. Not everything is grammatically correct, but it’s enough to be understood. I didn’t have time early to make changes.

by David Fucillo on Feb 21, 2010 6:49 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

I voted for “your crazy” only because it obviously should have been “you’re crazy”

Why buy the cow, when you get the sex for free?

by return2greatness on Feb 22, 2010 6:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Thankyou Nocal81, superb material, I think Fooch and our new set of moderators are spoiling us.

When talking about draft picks in the top 5, I think it is more of the fault of the team and what they are evaluating and who’s doing the evaluation. We bombed our #1 overall in 05, mainly due to the rookie wage for top ten picks. If the money wasn’t a guaranteed investment the Niners and plenty other teams wouldn’t stick to the trenches and QB’s in these spots. I hope something is done about the rookie wage scale. When Matt Ryan brings in more money than Tom Brady, there is an issue.

Tribute to #42 Ronnie Lott

by rlott#42 on Feb 21, 2010 6:51 PM PST reply actions  

I give you credit for the write up

Real good work here.

Personally, I see Suh playing similar to Warren Sapp. I don’t think he should be the #1 pick (The Rams should take a QB, the Lions need a franchise LT), but I think Suh will have a very good career.

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2010 7:26 PM PST reply actions  

good post

but i just dont see Suh struggling too much in the NFL, i can see him possibly being an average player but nothing less than that

It's just a plant, it grows in the earth, and if you happen to set it on fire there are some effects...

by iStoner on Feb 21, 2010 8:18 PM PST reply actions  

Ellis...

Sedrick was drafted by the Saints… Shawn plays for the Jets right? Just saying… Good article…

what the hell is this box for?

by Cabe on Feb 21, 2010 8:35 PM PST reply actions  

Ellis

He’s a beast though.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 22, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Decent article except for...
In 1990 Cortez Kennedy was selected by the Seahawks two picks ahead of Junior Seau and well before Emmitt Smith. Although Kennedy had an okay NFL career his selection wasn’t warranted with the 3rd overall pick.

Kennedy was a beast winning Defensive MVP in ’92, 8 time Pro Bowler and Finalist for Hall of Fame in ’09.

by Josh73 on Feb 22, 2010 1:52 AM PST reply actions  

Agreed, as a Seahawks fan, calling him anywhere NEAR a bust is a travesty.

Look at his wikipedia page. He was a pro bowler in 8 out of 9 seasons! He was a finalist for the Hall of Fame last year. Sports Illustrated him the greatest NFL player to ever wear the #96. (Sorry for the repeats of what Josh said, but it had to be re-emphasized).

Dream Draft: Clausen, Brown (#24), Houston, McKnight, Mike Williams, Black, McManis, DTN.

by LantermanC on Feb 22, 2010 8:25 AM PST up reply actions  

+1

Oh goody ~ another year of Alex Smith fans making excuses for his mediocre skills and uninspired leadership.

by riderless on Feb 22, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Funny how things can be subjective....

Nocal thought he was a so-so pick….Clayton with ESPN thinks it was good pick. Goes so far as to call him a GREAT one.

“Drafting defensive tackles among the top five picks usually leads to disappointment; the last great one drafted that early was Cortez Kennedy (Seahawks) in 1990.”

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=4935397

by hudd07 on Feb 22, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I did basically the same post at www.mockingthedraft.com

BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT DT HAS ONLY GONE 1ST OVERALL 7 TIMES SINCE 1936??!!

by durst on Feb 22, 2010 8:48 AM PST reply actions  

So DT has gone 1st overall ~10% of the time?

That seems like a reasonable amount, maybe even a bit high.

Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.

by marcello on Feb 22, 2010 3:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Further

Especially considering how prominent QB and HB are in the draft, that makes DT the 3rd or 4th most drafted position at #1 overall.

Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.

by marcello on Feb 22, 2010 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Suh had two knee surgeries in College, no?

Oooooh.

It should also be noted that the Rams have gone with the “safe” pick the past few years.
It has bitten them in the butt every single time.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 22, 2010 11:12 AM PST reply actions  

How so?

2009—-Jason Smith. Not worked out yet but it’s a tough transition and tackle is a spot that can bust easy
2008—Chris Long. Starting DE
2007—Adam Carriker. He’s a bust
2006—Tye Hill CB. Bust
2005—Alex Barron. Starting LT for them.

49ers

2009—Crabtree
2008—Balmer. Close to being a bust
2007—Patrick Willis. Man beast
2006—Vernon Davis and Manny Lawson. Davis is just coming into his own. Lawson isn’t justifying his first round status
2005—Alex Smith. Not living up to his first round status.

Rams are 2/5, 49ers are 3/5. Not much better I’d say.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will probably get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Feb 22, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

STL picks suck

Long – average DE at best, nowhere near #2 pick value
Carriker and Hill are busts
Alex barron – one of the worst starting tackles in the league

You’re also selling Lawson a bit short. He hasnt been the pass rusher people expected, but he’s otherwise a very solid OLB. No shame in picking him with a mid 1st round pick.

by SteveBoner on Feb 22, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Chris Long

I think he will be above average soon. In two seasons, he’s had 9 sacks and 2 Fumbles Forced. Defensive Line takes time sometimes and he has showed a lot of upside for being on a defensive line where he doesn’t get much help.

If they do end up drafting Suh next year, I think you will see Long’s sack total go in to double-digits next season.

The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.

by Drew Kerr on Feb 22, 2010 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup

D-line takes an average of 2 years to become an effective starter. With some help on the other side the Rams D-line would be fearsome.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will probably get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Feb 22, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

But that's not what they were expecting when they drafted Long.

They expected an instant sensation, or at least a Mario Williams-like performance.

He’s shown some flashes but in a re-draft I don’t think he would be drafted in the top 10 again.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 22, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you could say that about most top 10 draft prospects

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will probably get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Feb 22, 2010 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

most?

I wouldn’t say that about Mario Williams, Jake Long, Matt Ryan, Joe Thomas, etc.

Compare the top 10 of any draft to the any other 10 draft slots and I’m sure that the top 10 will have more “stars”

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 23, 2010 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

but we're not comparing the top 10 of the first round to the top 10 of the 2nd

Completely different expectations for the two rounds.

I’m gonna do some research and see what the probability of bust is for the top 10. Should make for an interesting article

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will probably get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Feb 23, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm looking foward to it.

It still won’t prove that Chris Long has lived up to expectations though.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 24, 2010 2:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Jason Smith has had concussion problems (and we all know how people here feel about that——hint: Jahvid Best).
-He also played very poorly as a rookie.

Chris Long has in no way lived up to expectations though. Matt Ryan would have been a much better selection….although Marc Bulger wasn’t that bad in 2007-2008.

I was thinking back to 2006 only though…..Although Barron doesn’t help your argument (he’s not very good).

They have passed on Matt Ryan and Mark Sanchez and ended up with an under achieving DE and an OT who’s future is yet to be determined (doesn’t look so bright anymore).

Since you brought the 49ers into this:
Crabtree: We don’t know, but the future looks very bright.
Balmer: I’m calling him a bust.
Willis: BUST, lol JK
Staley (you forgot him): He’s very good and well worth his late 1st round selection.
Davis: Tough call, he was the 6th overall pick….however, he just tied an NFL record so I’m going to say that he’s a hit.
Lawson: Come on dude. He was the 22nd overall pick. If he was a top 15 pick then you’d have a point. But I don’t mind spending the 22nd overall pick on a LB that is very good in coverage, good/great against the run, and above average as a pass rusher.

I agree 100% on Alex Smtih
So (not counting 2009):
Rams: 0-4
49ers: 4-6

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 22, 2010 2:29 PM PST up reply actions  

If you hit a good record then you are not a bust.

by manraj7 on Feb 22, 2010 3:14 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Davis..a thought

While I’ll admit it’s taken a bit of time for him to become a “star” at receiving, isn’t he also noted as being one of the best at blocking of any of the “receiving tight ends”? So when you take that into account that’s just an added benny. I remember watching Top Ten Tight Ends and even some of those they were saying “Can’t or won’t block his way out of a paper bag”. So to have a guy that is good block and good receiving sounds like (pardon the pun) a catch.

I could be wrong in that.

by ChesapeakeBay9er on Feb 22, 2010 4:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think you

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 23, 2010 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

ack!

I don’t think you’re wrong.

I think he’s easily a top 5 NFL TE.
Of course some people would like to see a little more consistency.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 23, 2010 1:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Sean Gilbert made the pro bowl in 1993.

The next big time DT after Wilkinson was Darrell Russell (#2) 1997. He was an animal on the field, but liked drugs a lot.

Sedrick Ellis was selected and plays for the Saints.

Kevin Williams was selected “way further down”? Dude was taken 9th overall in 2003.

by microwave donut on Feb 22, 2010 12:00 PM PST reply actions  

When do we add Tyson Jackson and BJ Raji to the list?

by bignerd on Feb 22, 2010 5:14 PM PST reply actions  

Jackson yes, Raji..hmmm

I’m not sure they got Raji as an immediate replacement but an eventual replacement of Pickett. Pickett is just 30 and NT’s usually go to like 33 or so. Letting him learn under Pickett then take over. But LOL next year that tune may change.

by ChesapeakeBay9er on Feb 22, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I know, not fair.

I don’t have a lot of faith in Raji but he was suppose to start this season or challenge the starters. I think Raji cashed in on one big season his senior year of college, the DT to take was Ron Brace.

by bignerd on Feb 22, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions  

He got Raji drafted at #9.

Actually Brace is a in good spot underneath Belichick while Raji is behind a starter with huge expectations on his shoulders.

by bignerd on Feb 22, 2010 7:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I believe in Raji

But I didn’t like how GB always played him at DE instead of NT.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 23, 2010 1:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Comparing the two positions NT doesn’t seem like a good fit for Raji:

NT – job is to get beat on but hold your position at the point of attack
DE – not saying they don’t get beat up but generally they are the aggressor trying to make the play.

At BC Raji was the guy they turned lose to make a play while Brace was the guy holding the fort down.

by bignerd on Feb 23, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure history says yes

First of all, what constitutes a bust? Is a player chosen in the top 5, who’s a starter for 8+ years of their career, but not a probowler, a bust? I don’t think so. They might not have lived up to expectations, but I wouldn’t consider a player like that a bust. Also, with any position I think it’s posible to cherry pick players who were chosen high but didn’t live up to their lofty expectations. How ofter are DT taken in the top 5 and what percentage have had great careers, average careers, and bust careers? Those percentages would be more telling in determining if choosing a DT high is a risky pick. I thought it was a good read, and their was a lot of good information. I’m just not convinced that taking a DT in the top 5 is as risky as taking a QB, WR, or Safety, which are positions that have traditionally had problems transitioning to the NFL.

Don't trust this guy. He lies.

by urnext on Feb 23, 2010 1:46 PM PST reply actions  

Bust should be judgemental and not standardized

I believe Justin Smith was the #3 overall pick some years ago. He just made the Pro Bowl this season as an alternate, does the lack of Pro Bowls make him a bust? No, because he is a beast.

by bignerd on Feb 23, 2010 4:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Brian Westbrook would be another example

He’s only been to two Pro Bowls, but he’s been one of the best RBs in the NFL over the last decade. That’s the problem I have with the post. Some of the players listed as busts have had solid careers. They might not have lived up to expectations, but they can hardly be considered busts.

Don't trust this guy. He lies.

by urnext on Feb 23, 2010 6:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I would add Aundray Bruce to the bust list

He was picked #1 by the Falcons the same year Tim Brown was drafted.

by Rabbit T on Feb 23, 2010 4:28 PM PST reply actions  

i know because ive seen

being born and raised in sanfrancisco i moved 2 portland oregon when i was 22 been here over a decade and some more so ive known about suh since he was in high school he’s a very hard worker and he has the best foot speed ive seen in a while he playec soccer growing up until he out grew the game , yea its a high risk and i really think alot of people feel since its st. lous with the pick he’s destined 2 be a bust now howie long’s son 2 me was a over achiever with a good motor .Now 4 me i’m hoping he’s a bust because we have 2 see him twice a year or either detroit picks him but i’m sorry 2 say i think he will do fine in the N.F.L

by jayjonna415 on Feb 23, 2010 4:33 PM PST reply actions  

Defensive tackles picked in the first round

since 2002 have a 60% bust rate. This holds true even for top 10 picks.

Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will probably get picked in the first round.

by smileyman on Feb 23, 2010 11:23 PM PST reply actions  

Wow

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

by SportsChicken on Feb 24, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

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