Statistical Review of the 2009 49ers: VI. Running Backs
Welcome back for the sixth installment of my 2009 Niner stat review. If you missed Parts 1-5, you can read them here, here, here, here, and here.
Today in Part 6, I'll take a look at the RB position. And by "the RB position," I mean Frank Gore. Sure, the 49ers technically have Glen Coffee, Moran Norris, and Michael Robinson listed as RBs on the 53-man roster; but, as was evident during Gore's 3-game absence in 2009, the 49ers' run OFF screeches to a halt without him.
The fact that Gore is so integral to the Niners' OFF definitely bucks the current NFL trend, which increasingly reflects an affinity for the proverbial RB-by-committee (RBBC). And the irony, of course, is that Gore began his career in 2005 as an RBBC member alongside Kevan Barlow. Since then, the number of teams using a RBBC has increased from 10 to 14, while the number of RBs with 320 or more carries has decreased from 8 to 3.
Not only are true #1 RBs like Gore becoming rarer; so are #1 RBs who produce with Gore's consistency and longevity. As we all know by now, Gore set a franchise record in 2009 with his fourth 1,000-yard season, all of which he achieved consecutively (another record). Not only does this achievement put him in rarified San Francisco air; it puts him in very select company among his contemporaries. Namely, here is the list of RBs who've had over 1,000 carries and 4,000 yards with a single team since 2006:
- LaDainian Tomlinson (1,178 carries for 5,129 yards with the Chargers)
- Steven Jackson (1,160 carries for 4,988 yards with the Rams)
- Frank Gore (1,041 carries for 4,953 yards with the 49ers)
That's it. 3 guys. And Gore is 1 of them. A 49er is one of them! Actually, not only is he 1 of them; he's the best of them in terms of yards per carry (4.76).
I know this is premature, but much of a player's consideration for the NFL Hall of Fame - for any HOF really - is his standing relative to his era. If that's the case, then thus far in Gore's era (2006-2009), he's a Top-3 RB. If he keeps it up, he might be the next 49er HOF'er, especially if the team actually makes the playoffs one of these seasons. Have you ever contemplated that (Gore in the HOF, not 49ers in the playoffs)? I know I haven't.
So, to sum up the intro, Gore's single-handedly the Niner run OFF; and it's a good thing considering how consistently productive he's been. Therefore, the question today is, "for how much longer can he be this good?"
After the jump, I'll detail why the question is important, and then attempt to answer it...
RB EFFICIENCY
Below are the rushing and receiving efficiency stats for Niner RBs in 2009, alongside those of the average playoff #1 RB. I've omitted the Saints' RBs because they're one of those RBBC teams (#1-#8 performance in bold; #25-or-below performance in italics):
|
Team |
RB Run DVOA |
Rk |
RB Rec DVOA |
Rk |
|
Frank Gore |
4.4% |
20 |
5.7% |
26 |
|
Glen Coffee |
-35.1% |
NA |
-48.0% |
NA |
|
Playoffs |
3.8% |
23.0 |
-2.4% |
32.8 |
(Housekeeping: NAs mean Coffee didn't have the 100 carries or 25 targets required to qualify for rankings.)
To me, 3 conclusions emerge from this table. First, Gore was nearly 40% more efficient than his primary backup. Good thing that injury only kept him out 3 games! Second, Gore's Run DVOA compares favorably to that of the average playoff #1 RB. That's a good thing, of course. Well, actually, maybe not, because...Third, there's no indication that having a feature RB with a top-20 DVOA meant anything in terms of making the playoffs this past season. Indeed, if you look at the 19 RBs ahead of Gore in Run DVOA, only Ray Rice (#6), Ryan Grant (#10), Marion Barber (#15), and Joseph Addai (#17) could be considered feature RBs on a playoff team. And, in the cases of Barber and Addai, they're within a stone's throw of RBBC territory.
Also, I shouldn't move on without mentioning that #1 RB Receiving DVOA is even less relevant than #1 RB Run DVOA when it comes to playoff teams. The highest-ranked feature RB among playoff teams was Adrian Peterson at #15 with a 15.6% RB Receiving DVOA. Granted he was targeted in the passing game (57) far less frequently than he carried the ball (314), but - believe it or not - Peterson was actually a more efficient receiver than runner in 2009.
RB RUSHING YARDAGE
So Gore was more efficient in 2009 than the average NFL RB, as well as the average playoff #1 RB; and that goes for both running and receiving efficiency. But how productive was he in terms of yardage per run and yardage per target? And just how unproductive was Coffee? Here's the rushing table:
|
Team |
DYAR/R |
Rk |
Yds/R |
Rk |
EYds/R |
Rk |
|
Frank Gore |
0.51 |
22 |
4.90 |
13 |
4.23 |
28 |
|
Glen Coffee |
-1.02 |
NA |
2.72 |
NA |
1.66 |
NA |
|
Playoffs |
0.52 |
22.9 |
4.19 |
28.8 |
4.48 |
21.5 |
As was the case with his DVOA, Gore's DYAR-per-carry was once again very comparable to playoff #1 RBs. Where things get interesting, however, is the flip-flop that occurs when moving from yards-per-carry to EYds-per-carry. Specifically, whereas Gore was nearly a full yard-per-carry better than the average playoff #1 RB, he was worse than the playoff average in EYds-per-carry. Essentially, this means that opponents and game situations gave playoff #1s a 0.29-yards disadvantage on their average carries, but gave Gore a 0.67-yard advantage on his average carry. Or, if you prefer English, the bottom line is that Gore's 4.90 yards-per-carry stat is somewhat of a mirage insofar as he benefitted greatly from softer run DEFs and easier game situations.
As for Coffee, he was abysmally abysmal, which, of course, is the inverse of "tremendously tremendous" (hat-tip: Fooch). Just to make sure you put the stats in their proper perspective, Coffee's DYAR-per-carry of -1.02 means that, if Coffee was the 49ers' starter, and they had to replace him for whatever reason, an average backup would gain 1.02 more yards per carry than he did. However, being that Coffee is, in fact, a backup, his negative DYAR/R really just means that the Niners might want to find a new backup. OK, OK, he's just a rookie. Fine, I'll rephrase. The Niners should not assume they've found their Gore backup.
RB RECEIVING YARDAGE
Here's the receiving table:
|
Team |
DYAR/T |
Rk |
Yds/T |
Rk |
EYds/T |
Rk |
|
Frank Gore |
1.08 |
27 |
5.41 |
31 |
6.20 |
27 |
|
Glen Coffee |
-1.89 |
NA |
4.22 |
NA |
0.06 |
NA |
|
Playoffs |
0.64 |
32.6 |
6.03 |
25.5 |
5.38 |
30.8 |
Interestingly enough, the pattern was reversed for Gore (and playoff #1s) in the passing game. Specifically, rather than helped by schedule and situation, Gore's productivity as a receiver was hurt by facing stingier pass DEFs and tougher game situations. And again, this contrasted with playoff #1s, who benefitted 0.65 yards-per-target from softer pass DEFs and easier game situations (i.e., 6.03 minus 5.38). Of course, as has been the case repeatedly so far, playoff participation didn't exactly require a team's #1 RB to be highly ranked in DYAR/T, Yds/T, or EYds/T.
As for Coffee, if he were actually an average backup, he would have averaged 6.11 Yds/T (i.e., 4.22 minus -1.89). In addition, nearly all of his actual Yds/T (i.e., 4.16 of 4.22) were attributable to facing soft pass DEFs and easy game situations.
THE (RED AND) GOLDEN GOOSE
OK, so far I think it's pretty clear that the 49ers would be doomed if Frank Gore were to suffer a major injury that forced him to miss significant playing time. But what are the odds of that happening? Or, using more optimistic language, what are the odds of that not happening? Well, for this discussion, let's return (finally) to the question I posed at the beginning of the post: For how much longer can Gore be this good?
It turns out that there are several theories about RB longevity in general that may or may not apply to Gore's specific case. The first one is based on research done by Doug Drinen at Pro Football Reference back in 2000. Simply looking at whether or not RBs improve from Age N to Age N+1 (e.g., from Age 24 to 25), he found that the peak occurs somewhere around Age 27. In discussing his finding, Drinen speculated that physical wear-and-tear was not a major factor in the age-related decline for RBs.
Three later theories about RB decline speculated in the opposite direction. The most notorious of the 3 is Football Outsider's Curse of 370, which was developed in 2004 and states that, "a RB with 370 or more carries during the regular season will usually suffer either a major injury or loss of effectiveness the following year, unless he is named Eric Dickerson." The basic idea underlying FO's theory is that, rather than any particular age signaling the likely onset of RB decline, it's actually 370 carries at any age that sounds the death knell. Later studies by Brian Burke at Advanced NFL Stats and Maurile Tremblay at Football Guys both found that the Curse of 370 was more aptly named the Myth of 370, i.e., they by-and-large debunked it as too general insofar as (a) 370 is not a magic number, and (b) football stat analysis could never come up with a magic number to begin with.
Almost simultaneous with FO's unveiling of the Curse, Football Docs published basically the same exact analysis (coincidence?), except they added another component. Namely, they proposed that, in addition to 370 carries being informative vis-à-vis a RB decline, so was a 33% year-to-year increase in carries. In other words, if a RB carries the ball 33% more in Year N than Year N-1, then he's likely to experience a decline in rushing yards the following year (i.e., Year N+1). Football Docs work seems far more anecdotal than statistical, but the theory does seem to be as defensible as FO's (See debunking caveats above).
The final wear-and-tear-based theory was forwarded in 2009 by Dave Richard at CBS Sports. Another anecdote-intensive effort, Richard's theory states that a RB is likely to decline when he reaches 8 full seasons and/or 2,500 career carries. Unfortunately, the jury's still out given that (a) the theory is relatively new, (b) there don't seem to be any hardcore stat analyses to back it up yet, and (c) Richard doesn't go into great detail about how he came up with 8 & 2,500 as the benchmarks.
It should seem obvious from this discussion that each of the theories are flawed to various extents. Nevertheless, let's just assume - for the sake of evaluating Gore - that all of them are right. If that's the case, is Gore likely to decline any time soon according to any of the theories? Well, here are the relevant stats:
|
RB Characteristic |
N |
Gore |
Decline? |
|
Age > N |
27 |
26 |
No |
|
Carries in Previous Season > N |
370 |
229 |
No |
|
% Change in Carries > N |
+33% |
-4.6% |
No |
|
# of Full Seasons > N |
8 |
4.5 |
No |
|
Career Carries > N |
2,500 |
1,168 |
No |
According to Drinen's age-based theory, Gore has 1 or 2 good seasons left in him. According to the Curse of 370, Gore wasn't even close to 370 carries in 2009, and wasn't even that close in 2007, when he was coming off of a 312-carry 2006 season. Ditto for Football Docs' increased workload theory: Gore actually had fewer carries in 2009 than he did in 2008. Of course, looking back at Gore's underachieving 2007 season, he may have indeed suffered from a 145% increase in workload from 2005 to 2006. Finally, according to Richard's theory, Gore seems to have about half-a-career's-worth of good seasons left.
So, given that our conclusion from Drinen's theory seems to be out of step with the other three, and given that his theory was based on the least-recent data set (i.e., ends in 2000), I'm inclined to lean towards the, "Frank Gore has plenty of good seasons left," conclusion clearly suggested by FO's and Richard's theories, and mildly supported by Football Docs' theory.
With the esteemed theorists accounted for, I'll finish up with what I think is a more-contextual look at Gore's potential career trajectory. And before I discuss it, I want to say that I never realized just how good Gore has been over the past 4 years in relation to his peers, or just how good he has the potential to be from a historical perspective. Regarding what I'm about to show you, I honestly had no idea what I was going to find when I started doing the research. Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised, and have come to feel that Gore is just about the most underrated and underappreciated RB over the past 4 seasons.
OK, so for my contextualized analysis, I'm going to return to what I said at the beginning of the post. Namely, that Gore's yardage and carry totals over the past 4 seasons put him in a select, elite class of NFL RBs during his era. What I neglected to tell you until now is that his penchant for 1,000-yard seasons - at such a young age - puts him in an elite class of NFL RBs during the modern passing era.
The first part of the Gore story involves determining the ages in which 1,000-yard seasons tend to occur based on recent NFL history.* I've got a handy graph below:
What you see pretty clearly in this graph is that RBs tend to be in their 1,000-yard-season prime between the ages of 24 to 27. Indeed, about 55% of all 1,000-yard seasons over the past 33 seasons have been achieved by RBs in this age range. So, already we see that Gore, whose 1,000-yard seasons came from Ages 23 to 26, is actually one year ahead of the curve. He already has four 1,000-yard seasons, and he's likely got 1-2 years still remaining in his 1,000-yard prime. That's the first clue about his longevity.
Of course, given that Gore became great earlier in his career than most, and that he's already had more 1,000-yard seasons than most, it's less than ideal to compare him to RBs like Cleveland Gary and Olandis Gary or Gaston Green and Harold Green, or former Laker Karim Abdul-Jabbar - all of which only had one 1,000-yard season in their entire careers. So let's compare Gore to the RBs since 1977 who are/were just like him.
Below I've listed the 15 RBs other than Gore and Jackson (both haven't yet reached 27) who had 4 consecutive 1,000-yard seasons from Ages 23-26. As a way to identify the most likely Gore outcomes, I've also included various measures of what happened to these RBs after they turned 26:
|
RBs w/ 4 Consecutive 1k-yd Seasons at Ages 23-26 (1977-2009) |
|||
|
RB |
1k-yd Seasons After Age 26 |
Age at Final 1k-yd Season |
Notes |
|
EMMITT SMITH |
6 |
32 |
"Drop-off" began at 27 |
|
WALTER PAYTON |
5 |
32 |
Lost 28 for 1982 strike |
|
5 |
31 |
Best season at 31 |
|
|
TONY DORSETT |
4 |
31 |
Lost 28 for 1982 strike |
|
BARRY SANDERS |
4 |
30 |
2k-yd season at 29 |
|
THURMAN THOMAS |
4 |
30 |
"Drop-off" began at 27 |
|
ERIC DICKERSON |
3 |
29 |
Best season at 28 |
|
3 |
30 |
Best season at 30 |
|
|
LaDainian Tomlinson* |
3 |
29 |
Best season at 27 |
|
Eddie George |
3 |
30 |
Best season at 27 |
|
2 |
29 |
Lost 1 for inj at 28 |
|
|
EARL CAMPBELL |
1 |
28 |
Lost 27 for 1982 strike |
|
1 |
32 |
Susp at 27; Retire at 29 |
|
|
Terrell Davis |
0 |
26 |
Torn ACL, MCL at 27 |
|
Rodney Hampton |
0 |
26 |
Mystery |
|
BOLD CAPS = HOFer Bold = Retired, but not yet eligible for HOF * = Active player |
|||
OK, first, WOW, that's some seriously awesome company! Nearly half (7 of the 15) are already in the HOF. Two others (Martin and Tomlinson) are shoe-in HOFers. Three others (Dillon, Green, and Williams) are borderline HOFers who aren't eligible yet. And finally, two others (Davis and George) are borderline HOFers who've only recently become eligible, and who may be voted into the HOF on future ballots. So, among the 15 RBs on the list, only 1 (Hampton) can be seen as having essentially no shot to make the HOF, which isn't altogether shocking given that his career basically ended for no apparent reason after his 4th 1,000-yard season in 1995. At least Davis had the excuse of a major knee injury for his failure to achieve a 5th. In this context, Gore - and Jackson for that matter - will quickly approach HOF worthiness with 2 or 3 more 1,000-yard seasons.
And how likely is that? Well, based on the above table, a RB who has four 1,000-yard seasons by the Age of 26 is a 3-to-2 favorite to have at least 2 more! And if you add Campbell's strike-shortened 1982 season, in which he was easily on pace to have 1,000 yards at Age 27, the likelihood improves to 80%. In other words, although there have been 440 individual 1,000-yard seasons by a RB since 1977, having 4 consecutive from Ages 23 to 26 is what seem to separate the HOFers from the flashes-in-the-pan. Indeed the 17 "4 x 1,000" RBs (which includes Gore and Jackson) account for 119 of the 440 total 1,000-yard seasons since 1977! And given that those 440 seasons were posted by a total of 166 RBs, this basically boils down to the top 10% of RBs accounting for 27% of all 1,000-yard seasons since 1977!
The point I'm trying to make here - if it's not already evident - is that longevity seems to breed longevity among RBs. The more 1,000-yard seasons a RB accumulates early in his career, the more likely he will accumulate additional 1,000-yard seasons later in his career. Furthermore, the table suggests there's an 80% likelihood that a 26-year old "4 x 1,000" RB won't have has final 1,000-yard season until he's at least 29 years old.
So, taking all the evidence together, this is what we can infer about Gore's potential longevity:
- Gore's had four 1,000-yard seasons by Age 26
- The prime years for a 1,000-yard RB extend to Age 27-28
- The likelihood that Gore will have at least 2 more 1,000-yard seasons is 80%
- The likelihood that Gore's final 1,000-yard season won't come until he's at least 29 years old is 80%
Therefore, I'd say that - barring a major injury - Gore's got a better than 50/50 shot to have 3 more 1,000-yard seasons by the time he turns 30. And, if that's indeed what happens, Gore becomes a virtual certainty to be enshrined in Canton 5 or so years after his career ends.
BOTTOM LINE
As I said previously, I really had no idea that Gore's sustained level of production is as rare as it is. Perhaps that's because the Niners have been so awful from the moment he arrived, and because great RBs on awful teams tend to be underappreciated nationally. But, in my mind, it's precisely these types of RBs - those on awful teams - that are the most impressive because they're typically running behind bad OLs and they don't benefit from the clock-killing, stat-padding 4th-quarter carries enjoyed by RBs on winning teams.
So, based on the stats I've presented in Part 6 of the season review, here are the things the Niners need to do at the RB position in order to seriously contend in 2010:
- Do whatever's humanly possible to keep Gore healthy
- Continue to search for an efficient Gore backup in partial fulfillment of #1 above
If they can sustain Gore's production for another 3 or 4 seasons, they'll have earned him a bust in Canton alongside a certain LB that I'll talk about on Friday.
*My choice of 1977-2009 was not some arbitrary decision. Rather, it's based on research by Stimel (2009), which showed that the variability in passing statistics exhibited a structural breakpoint in 1977, such that 1977-present represents a singular high-performance, low-variability passing era of the NFL; presumably due to significant rule changes in the mid-to-late 1970s that made life far more difficult for defensive backs. Therefore, 1,000-yard seasons by a RB prior to 1977 are oranges compared to the apples from 1977 to the present.
**DVOA, DYAR, and EYds statistics used to produce this article were provided by Football Outsiders.
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Comments
Why isn't Thomas Jones on the list for 1K yd seasons after 26?
He pretty much peaked at around that age.
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
that list only includes
RBs who had 4 straight 1,000-yd seasons from age 23-26…it’s not a table showing most 1,000-yd seasons after age 26
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Boo!
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by chikmagnet_565 on Feb 22, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
I voted 1 or 2
but I don’t think he will be considered once he’s done as a HOFer. He hasn’t done anything that special…. yet. If Roger Craig is having a hard time getting in, then I don’t think Gore is worthy….. yet.
Too early to start naming him a HOFer IMO. It takes A LOT to get in.
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that special
I voted 3+ (explained below), but I definitely think he’s done some special things thus far. Single season franchise rushing record, only 49er RB EVER with 4 straight 1,000 yard seasons. Not saying it makes him Hall-worthy, but given the context of the talent around him I’d argue he’s been fairly special.
by David Fucillo (Fooch) on Feb 22, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
More special than Craig, Perry, Willard, Hearst, etc… who aren’t in the Fame? I can’t begin to think that he would be worthy of mention yet. It’s too early. I didn’t say he wasn’t a special player but what has he accomplished that 500 other RB’s in the history of the NFL haven’t? I guess that’s my argument.
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i think...
the argument here is about whether or not X number of additional 1,000-yd seasons would make him worthy. don’t think anyone’s going to argue with you that he’s not worthy right now.
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
actually....
only niner RB ever with 4 1,000-yard seasons period…the “consecutive” part is just gravy…
also, if you just want to take a blunt object to the question, the cutoff for automatic HOF induction is 8 career 1,000-yard seasons. here’s the list of every RB with 8 or more:
Emmitt Smith (11)
Curtis Martin (10)
Barry Sanders (10)
Walter Payton (9)
Jerome Bettis (8)
Tony Dorsett (8)
Thurman Thomas (8)
LaDainian Tomlinson (8)
8 guys, 5 of which are already in; and the other 3 are automatics.
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
Well currently he is 87th on the all-time rusher list behind guys like Rudi Johnson and Travis Henry… I am just saying, it’s a little early to start counting chickens and that’s my point but I get your point too. Just looking at things objectively. Anything could happen between now and his way to being mentioned as a HOFer.
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see my reply above...
no one’s arguing with the fact that he’s not a HOFer now. actually, i’d argue with anyone who thinks he’s a HOFer now.
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
Gotcha. Noted
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you know
if i was you i would use the word automatic when it comes 2 the H.O.F anybody can find a list of ex players people considered were automatic and no offense 2 curtis martin (he is on of my all-time favorite rbs espicially when he was at new england0but i feel like his stats were padded at n.y jets he was 95% of there offense and by the way ricky waters should be a automatic loo at his stats but alot of the voters hold personal grudges that we don’t here about,
if i was you...
i’d bet me $100 that martin makes the hall of fame. there are only 2 RBs in NFL history to start their career with 10 consecutive 1,000-yard seasons: barry sanders and curtis martin. we’re sitting here going back and forth about gore needing 3 or 4 more 1,000-yard seasons for consideration; he’d need 6 more in a row to match martin. add the 5 pro bowls, 1 all-pro, 1 super bowl appearance, and the fact that the best season of his career came at age 31 (!!!), and martin would have to be uncovered as a member of al qaeda in order to not get in.
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 10:17 PM PST up reply actions
Thank you
I’m sorry if gore get 3 more 1000yrd season he’ll been considered a hof worthy please tell me i’m reading that wrong , 7to8 thousand is hof worthy when roger craig who started the marshal faulk stat 1000run 1000rec and got rings i’m sorry gore is not close.Honestly i know i might catch flak 4 this comment but ricky waters should be in the hof but his mouth and atitude and that quote now i might say this wrong but when he said ‘’ for who for what’’ it was something like that but i think those words helped keep him out of the hof. To me gore needs at least 5 to 6 thousand more yard 2 be considered and some playoffs games to be in the HOF
Waters, despite being immensely productive, was always more a pain than his output was worth. He was journeyman because he always about the money.
Roger Craig’s best > Ricky Waters best. If Craig isn’t in the HOF than I don’t see how Roger Craig lite makes the HOF.
Also looking at the list it might be a good thing to ignore the statistics put up by the RB’s of the 90’s. It was era that featured single back sets and lack of QB depth. I cannot quite put my finger on why the backs from that era had such good longevity . . . something I am going to look into.
That's a good question
lots of 10 year backs and then we hit the 2000s when there weren’t many backs who had long productivity.
Did the defenses get that much bigger and faster?
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will probably get picked in the first round.
that's true
ricky waters was a pain the @ss but right now were arguing stats and his stats both receiving and running plus he balled out in the biggest games so did his mouth now i don’t know but would corey dillion stats be H.O.F worthy is there anyone who could tell what his career sts were.?
Emmit Smith and Barry Sanders probably skewed the numbers. Those guys have to be considered outliers. They both had running styles where they didn’t take a ton of big hits.
I know what I'm talking about, I started at right guard for the 1992 College Park Falcons.
by Johnnysixnut on Feb 23, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
Vote
I went with 3+ more. I’d like to think less than that, but I think he’ll need 3 or so more 1k seasons to make a substantial leap into that discussion. If he puts up 2,400 yards over the next two seasons (just throwing some numbers out there), he would have 7,961 yards and sit 5 yards behind Garrison Hearst on the all time list. I realize they’re vastly different players, but just wanted to put in context for the career rushing list. The nearest Hall-of-Famer to him would be Larry Csonka at 8,081 yards.
If the 49ers manage to improve into a playoff-caliber team with a good offensive line, those numbers could definitely benefit.
by David Fucillo (Fooch) on Feb 22, 2010 12:31 PM PST reply actions
Take your stats home to your basement, Danny. I hope you sleep well at night, clutching your spreadsheets. Obviously Shaun Hill is a better RB than Gore. Gore doesn’t have “it”.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
(This comment was made because I’m pretty sure that a stats post saying “Gore is good – in fact, he’s better than you think!” just isn’t going to get a lot of people telling you and your stats to screw off. And there should be at least one.)
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
stats
You’re right. When the stats tell people what they want to hear they’re great. When the stats run counter to their opinion, the stats are clearly BS.
by David Fucillo (Fooch) on Feb 22, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
these stats...
actually ran counter to my own opinion…guess that means i need to rip myself and my own BS stats!
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 12:41 PM PST up reply actions
I'm assuming that all these comments are shot's being taken at me, correct?
Since it was you and I who were having discussions about the “it” factor?
That’s cool man, if it makes you feel better.
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comments
I could be wrong, but I don’t think it’s a shot at you in particular. Over the course of Danny’s two years writing at this site, people have taken shots at the stats from day 1. And of course people are entitled to that. It’s more just a commentary on people hearing what they want to hear I suppose.
by David Fucillo (Fooch) on Feb 22, 2010 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
Hmm. Interesting. The other day we had that discussion, so it was fresh and since I posted here taking an objective to the HOFer talks, it seems that way.
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
I won’t put words in howtheyscored’s mouth. My reply to his comment had nothing to do with your guys’ dialogue. It was just based on the various comments that go up in Danny’s posts.
by David Fucillo (Fooch) on Feb 22, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
what's crazy is !!??
is see people taking shots at people left and right even poking fun at jerry jones the other day , and i say i don’t hope the niners don’t go after porter (miami .D ) because he has a atitiude and could be rub people the wrong way and i get a WARNING from who i don’t know but that is some bogus crap right there almost like somebody was scared porter might read it and not want 2 come to the niners ’’don’t be scuuuredd"
like i said
i got a warning thing for what i said about porter i didn’t curse i wasn’t disrespectful and i feel what i said was warrented he has had off field scraps and on field scraps but SOMEBODY turned 5. 0 and hit me up with some warning crap like if you do what ever i did which you should be able 2 look it up so 2 say huh our break it down in chinese i don’t care but whoever did it wether it was the people who created this site or some randon person just swinging off porter webbles (break that language down) whoever did it was some punk shhhhh that’s the only thing i was saying .Now i got that off my chest back 2 football
足球統治!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
okay drew lmao
i’ll let it go i don’t want you 2 start speaking in french
I was the one who gave you the warning, and I’m not trying to hide from that. I gave you the warning because I would have given anybody that same warning.
Also, I’ve seen that you’ve been respectful of the site rules ever since then, and I’ve tried to be respectful of you ever since then. I appreciate that you made the effort.
But I can’t control the comments of others. I’ll delete comments and warn them if they break the rules, but we’re not complete fascists. We still let people say what they want to say as long as they don’t say something completely and utterly uncalled for.
I will say, and I say this with all possible respect because I’m glad you’re sticking around here, that your writing is difficult to follow. It’s hard to understand. And if you choose to keep writing this way, then you have to be the one who is thick skinned when other people don’t understand you. Because, like I said, it is difficult to understand.
I’m not telling you to write differently. Write however you want to. But don’t be offended that people have a hard time reading it. Either you don’t care that they have a hard time reading it, or you do care. If you don’t care, then them having a hard time isn’t your problem. If you do care, you’ll try to write better. Simple.
I hope you understand. I’m not trying to be mean. I’m not trying to be disrespectful. I think you’re great for sticking around after I warned you, and I do appreciate that you’ve kept from swearing since then. I’m just trying to be honest.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 9:49 PM PST up reply actions
okay i feel you
but i just wanted 2 know what curse words did i use and if youre out there on the field scrapping like you’re at a club(when porter threw down with dude from cleveland }or when the N.F.L makes up a rule 4 you {his ritual of talking smack before a game while the other team is stretching }or when you sucker punch someone while there gambling over a beef you had with them during the season } and i’m not singling him out because he’s black i’m black and grew up in a rough part of san francisco ,i just wanted 2 know what did i say that was off limits because i’m not a person who get’s online and start swearing and cursing out people i try 2 stay away from sites that are like that hell i stay off xbox live sometimes because i don’t want 2 here it just wanted 2 know what i said but its no biggie atleast you said what it was about.
by jayjonna415 on Feb 22, 2010 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
If I remember the comment string, you were just dropping a bunch of a-bombs. Which isn’t seriously awful, but we try to be stringent because we don’t have very many rules and if we get lax about one thing then we’ll get lax about the next and the rule won’t mean anything anymore.
I mean, don’t worry about it. I gave you the warning just so you’d know how we handle swearing here – even minor swearing (I don’t care if you say damn, though, so damn it up!). My tone can be harsh sometimes, but I mean well.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 10:22 PM PST up reply actions
That's cool
now back 2 the business of football this is a big week 4 football fans but if the niners do go after c,j spiller do you think coffee will get challenged 4 his back-up role and will the niners hold on 2 michael robinson thats alot of RBS not 2 mention clayton coming off IR ????
by jayjonna415 on Feb 22, 2010 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
Let me translate this for you all
我認為這種戈爾東西是垂直沉默的男人。我無法關心更少因為我也是垂直沉默的。沒人在這裡知道我的悲傷 … 沒人在這裡知道我的疼痛。
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
by Drew K on Feb 22, 2010 7:52 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude thanks man it is so much clearer.
by manraj7 on Feb 22, 2010 9:27 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
hey, i've been AWOL for months...
so i have no idea about any recent “it” factor arguments. my motivation echoes fooch’s above.
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
I usually stay away from the “stats” DVOA/ DYAR posts but I found this one interesting. I just stated my opinion on the HOFer thing pointing out some facts regarding that in contrary to the “projections” or “hypotheticals”
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
usually
i’m good with certain abbreviations but what does dvoa/dyar stand 4
by jayjonna415 on Feb 22, 2010 10:03 PM PST up reply actions
No, it’s not a shot at you at all. Basically every post Danny has ever made except for ones that say Gore or Willis are good have been met with a horde of people telling him that stats are completely worthless in every way. It was 100% a shot at them.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
And to be perfectly clear, I don’t have any kind of vendetta against you. I’ve disagreed with you a few times and I’ve taken a few things personally that I probably should have left alone, but by and large I think you bring an interesting, honest perspective to the site, and I think that your work on the 100 in 100 is not only gargantuan, but also highly commendable. I’m not here to sit around taking pot shots at you. I’m here to sit around taking pot shots at the people I don’t like.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
Okay, well sorry for taking it that way; I suppose it was unfairly presumptous of me. Because I take such an objective view on certain subjects, and am opinionated to the extreme sometimes, it seems like the avalanche falls from time to time and I go in to survival mode.
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
avalanche?
survival?
let’s hope you don’t resort to cannibalism.
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
Drew K is going to eat me?
Ah [site decorum]
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by chikmagnet_565 on Feb 22, 2010 1:56 PM PST up reply actions
With fava beans Clarice
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
And a nice Amarone.
(Not Chianti!)
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
Well, for all of our disagreements, you at least acknowledge the value of this stuff and make an effort to understand it.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
Oh, who am I kidding, we all know I was talking about bignerd all along. Man, I hate that guy soooooooooo much.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 6:12 PM PST up reply actions
I only argue some statistics. I think 80% are un-debatable but make a lot noise about the other 20%.
And I think I agree with you about a lot of the things you remain skeptical or critical of. I think I’m more happy to use an imperfect or insufficient system than you are, for lack of something better, and I think that’s where a lot of our differences of opinion come from.
But I think ultimately, we don’t butt heads about a lot of things. I’m just more willing to pursue an argument with you than with others because you’ll at least respond to me intelligently – even when my own comments border on insulting.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 6:38 PM PST up reply actions
I happen to work in a profession that deals with all kinds of models (statistical and non-statistical). I spend 95% of time dealing with the 20% that just flat does not work. I’ve basically drawn the conclusion that any model will add something in exchange for taking away something else. Essentially everyone’s system has the same limitation as the pulley . . . trading length needed to pull the rope for more force.
My gotcha with these statistics is the historically data. On one had the historical data provided the background and perspective to draw some many of these conclusions. The other hand it doesn’t mean any one team/individual will fit to the predecessors included in the historical data or the historical data will still be relevant in the near future because football appears to evolve at fast pace.
Florida Danny...
i don’t believe this BS…gore’s clearly not a HOFer! Take your stats and shove em up Gore’s HOF bust.
based on this post
I have now changed my mind and decided that Gore is no good, just so my opinion will run counter to the statistical evidence.
A hearty thank you to Rich Aurilia for all the good memories, and to the Niners for finally getting the uni's (mostly) right.
Some of the guys on this list that have 10,000+ yards rushing may not get in
Even if Gore goes for 3 more 1000 yard seasons he may not break the 10,000 yard mark. He’s sitting at 5,561.
Gore is one of may favorite RB’s of all-time and so is Roger Craig (who isn’t in and well worthy of it), I am just pointing out that it may not happen and it’s not the easiest thing to break in to.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rush_yds_career.htm
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
good point...
of the 10,000+ guys who aren’t in yet, i assume you’re talking about the following in re “may not get in:”
edgerrin james
fred taylor
corey dillon
warrick dunn
ricky watters
jamal lewis
eddie george
ottis anderson
james, taylor, dillon, dunn, and lewis have yet to even be eligible for the hall, so i think they’re pure speculation at this point. watters and anderson, on the other hand, have been eligible for a while and have yet to even get close to enshrinement, so they’re valid. and george just came up for the first time this year.
among the 8, however, none have the “magic” number of 8 1,000-yard seasons. all except anderson and dunn have 7, so it certainly stands to reason that gore might still not get in even with 3 more. however, if those 3 are ridiculously good — say 1,500+ yds — then the likelihood increases. i’d say, the more of the following that gore achieves, the more likely he’ll get in:
1) 3 more 1,500-yard seasons
2) 4 more 1,000-yard seasons
3) 1 NFL-record-breaking season of some kind
4) mild playoff success
5) a super bowl ring
given the state of the 49ers, the speed with which gore has reached 4 1,000-yd seasons, and the fact that he still has 1-2 years left in his 1,000-yd prime, i’d say his seasons from age 29-32 will be what makes or breaks his HOF candidacy.
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 1:20 PM PST up reply actions
If he gets 3 more 1000 yard seasons and a ring or championship game even, I think he’d certainly be worthy eventually. But there have been guys who have waited several decades to get in and some who are still even to this day waiting. And there are aren’t a ton of guys that get in each year. Plus the fact that usually there arent multiple players at a particular position that get in. I am not advocating that it can’t happen, just more or less saying it is an extremely hard thing to accomplish.
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
that's fair enough...
i’d just offer that
(a) only 16 other RBs since 1977 have done what gore’s already done. in other words, he’s already accomplished something extremely hard in the context of NFL RB performance.
(b) per my table, accomplishing the extremely hard thing he’s already accomplished greatly increases the likelihood he does end up doing what you/i/anyone requires to get his vote.
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
Only 16 other RBs?
Regardless of whether Frank becomes a HOFer or not let’s just enjoy what he has already achieved in 4 years. To have achieved what only 16 other RBs have achieved since 1977 is really special. I had no idea that he was that good.
Just think what he could acheive if/when we improve the OL.
by Glasgow_49er on Feb 22, 2010 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
yeah i would say 3+
it would help if the Niners were making a few playoff pushes, not just appearances. then he wouldnt just be the “man that ran crazy” during the Alex Smith years….
I have to say
I’ve always felt the Fore was so good because he’s such a complete back, as a pure runner I think he falls way down in the rankings. He has good vision but his top speed, agility, power and durability are all just below great. Somewhere in the really, really good areas. But, he does have all of them. Barry Sanders didn’t have power, Earl Campbell didn’t have speed.
I’m consistently impressed by Gore’s blocking and receiving. That’s what really elevates him, he never needs to leave the game.
Someone foward this to every other NFL SBnation site.
We must rub it in their faces.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
I just want to say the Gore is HOF in my book.
Also just a note. I just read that the Chargers released LT… I don’t think we need him but it is interesting that he is out there and the Rams or the Hawks may be interested in picking him up.. His price tag will be quite high…
Here’s a link to that: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;ylt=ApXhetJnswZysJULBAZZsI5nYcB?slug=ap-chargers-tomlinsonreleased&prov=ap&type=lgns
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
gore has never lead the league in rushing yards, correct?
For some reason I feel like that might hold him back from getting some votes for the HOF – not that it should matter – but it’s those kinds of things that voters seem to sometimes look for – # of pro-bowls, MVPs, playoff appearances, etc.
A hearty thank you to Rich Aurilia for all the good memories, and to the Niners for finally getting the uni's (mostly) right.
nope
In 2006 he led the NFC in rushing, but Tomlinson and Larry Johnson had more that year in the AFC.
by David Fucillo (Fooch) on Feb 22, 2010 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
2006
Didn’t Gore have a higher avg. though?
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by chikmagnet_565 on Feb 23, 2010 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
I went 3+
Smith had 11 years in a row with 1k . He was also incredibly healthy hardly ever missing a game. He had three more seasons with 900 yards. He was league rushing leader for 4 of those seasons.
Barry Sanders also had 4 years as the rushing leader and 10 1k seasons.
Eric Dickerson had 4 rushing titles and 7 1k seasons.
Payton had 10 1k seasons with 1 rushing title.
To make it to the Hall I think Gore will need at least three more 1,000 yard seasons with one of those years being a rushing title (and with Chris Johnson in the league that’s going to be really tough). If he doesn’t get a rushing title then he’ll need those 3 more years plus a Super Bowl ring.
Yes Drew K, Tim Tebow will probably get picked in the first round.
I'm not sure if the criteria is that high
Examining a few players that made the HOF this season I don’t think the threshold is always as high as people make it out to be.
3+ 1k season and good performances in a few high profile games might be enough.
Examining a few players that made the HOF this season I don’t think the threshold is always as high as people make it out to be.
Like who exactly? Hopefully that was a joke
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
Dick LeBeau
John Randall
Floyd Little
I really don’t understand the Dick LeBeau enshrinement. He wasn’t even the best defender on his team yet he will be the one in the HOF. I don’t want to hear about the coaching record, Dick LeBeau did not invent 3-4 defense but many people want to claim he did. I’m also not into the this push to enshrine coordinators, way too sketchy.
John Randall is a HOF but probably would have been 4th choice at this position. I really liked John Randall but name his signature moments? He was productive throughout his career but no highlights to hang his career on. Haley, Dent and Kevin Greene played much bigger in bigger moments . . . much more often too. So if the Gore cannot be in the HOF despite a lack of signature game or a ring than explain Randall?
Floyd Little, I actually don’t know too much about him. His statistics are not overwhelming and again I’ve never heard too much about him. He was the senior committee (they remembered him) write in but probably on the lower tier of HOF entries.
So in conclusion if all three of those guys made it to the HOF I don’t see how it’s a long shot that Frank Gore couldn’t make it producing 3 more 1K+ rushing seasons.
Here is 8 reasons why it's a long-shot...
Edgerrin james
Fred taylor
Corey dillon
Warrick dunn
Ricky watters
Jamal lewis
Eddie george
Ottis anderson
Because all these guys have almost double what Gore currently has in yards rushing which he may not even reach… even with 3 more 1K rushing seasons. 3 more only puts Gore at about 8500 yards. Some of these guys have played in big games, have 10K+ yards, and will still not make the hall of fame… at least probably not in either of our lifetimes (or what remains).
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
And then there’s about another 10 guys in the 9800-8000 Yard range.
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
Edgerrin James (possible, but don’t agree. Great 1st half career, not so great 2nd)
Fred Taylor (Cannot even believe he has that many yards, he missed 8 games per season and just has a lot of seasons)
Corey Dillon (Bengals killed his career but I like him, I’d consider him)
Warrick Dunn (Was never the featured back)
Ricky Watters (Generally sold his legacy for money)
Jamal Lewis (Possible, the jail time hurts him)
Eddie George (Likely, he was great for 1/2 decade)
Ottis Anderson (Recall the name but not the player. Was he on the Giants?)
Also, I mentioned this above but almost all those guys are from the 90’s, late 00’s era. Something was going on to inflate the longevity of those RBs which is reflected in the stats. Gore is consistent in era where no one is consistent that is going to count for something.
It could count for "something", yeah, sure...
but will it be enough is the real question? It seems that just yards alone are not enough. I honestly hope he does brek in to the Hall, he is one of my favorite players of all-time… but I am still waiting for a few more of my all-time favorites to be inducted and it may not happen… at least any time soon.
There aren’t a ton of guys that make it each year. And more importantly usually there aren’t multiple players at the same position that go in each year and I think that’s a pretty important element to consider if he ends up with 8500 or so, despite longevity. Eddie George was an iron man for 9 years or so and it’s possible he may have a long wait ahead as well.
The Tim Tebow Story "A Bust In The Making" ...Part 2 Coming After The Draft...Stay Tuned.
Being amazing for a short period of time has always trumped stats accrued over a very long career (Michael Irvin vs. Art Monk). And being an important part of a perennial champion can get players who were not statistically great into the Hall (Terry Bradshaw, John Stallworth).
Ottis Anderson probably has a chance because he was a pretty big part of the Giant’s super bowl run and had a big game in the bowl.
Edgerrin James never got a ring, but he was the feature back on a perennial contender and a big part of the Cardinals playoff run to the SB.
I don’t think anyone else on that list has a chance, and if you’re generally considered to be a hired gun or even worse, a team chemistry problem it’s going to hurt you. I strongly doubt T.O. will ever make the hall despite having great career numbers.
Frank Gore has a couple things working against him. He’s never had a year when there was buzz that he might be the best back in football and he’s never been to the playoffs so he doesn’t have a career defining playoff moment/game. He also doesn’t have a great carry/fumble ratio.
Roger Craig is a special case, he has nowhere near the career numbers to warrant consideration. What he does have is the first 1000/1000 rushing/receiving season. A memorable and unique running style. Championship pedigree and a career defining game vs Miami in SB 19.
I know what I'm talking about, I started at right guard for the 1992 College Park Falcons.
by Johnnysixnut on Feb 23, 2010 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
Do not believe thay
Lem Barney was NOT better than Dick LeBeau. Barney had a great rookine year (10 ints, I think) and was very good. But Lebeau lasted forever (14 years?) and was outstanding for every one of those years, with over 60 ints.
3+
plus they’ll need to be winning the hall like winners more than stats if the hall were about stats troy aikman would not be in. so i think if they win then he has more of a chance than just pure stats.
Tremendously Tremendous
I meant to post this earlier, but good use of my Facebook status Danny. For those who missed it, late in the USA-Canada hockey game, the color guy described the game as “tremendously tremendous.” It was a phenomenal game, and to come up with that description defies belief.
by David Fucillo (Fooch) on Feb 22, 2010 9:27 PM PST reply actions
It also defies disbelief.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2010 9:41 PM PST up reply actions
when i heard that guy say that...
i immediately thought it was snagglepuss doing color commentary on laff-a-lympics rather than a real person doing color commentary on the real olympics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHH3F65eYk
p.s. no way to embed video in a comment on here?
by Florida Danny on Feb 22, 2010 10:59 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

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