Offense Philosophy & Woes

by JHill26 on Mar 19, 2010 11:30 AM PDT

Hi all,

While the woes of the offensive line and the quarterback position have been discussed with every regard to the problems with the 49ers offense in general, I do not think the actual philosophy of the offense has been addressed. No, I am not going to propose that Alex Smith's head be put on a stake or that Jimmy Raye is a lemon. But I am going to try to address something that I feel needs serious attention.

At the start of the 2009-2010 season, we had every reason to believe that the style was Smashmouth. However, despite the talent of Frank Gore that approach proved tough and rigid but equally unproductive. In the second half of the season, there was talk of the "spread offense" (something that is collegiate and not professional, to my understanding), which Alex Smith reportedly ran with great success in college. Then from Mike Singletary himself, we heard that the team was striving for a more Balanced style; part running game and part passing game.

This uncertainty in the offensive philosophy should be addressed as soon as possible. Preferably, we should heed the advice of Steve Young and revert to a West Coast Offense philosophy and a more dynamic passing game. We have the weapons, do we not?

Now regarding the actual problems with the offense, I can say that I am not too keen on football technicalities, but it is my opinion that the actual problems may not have been with the offensive line or the quarterback entirely, but with the offensive coordination. Yes, I know, everybody is saying pretty much the same thing. However, the specific problem with the coordination, I believe, comes in the fact that they have Josh Morgan playing flanker (wide receiver position played by Jerry Rice, for anyone unaware) when he clearly does not possess the kind of speed needed for the position. Instead, they have Vernon Davis, the tight end, running streaks and posts in place of the flanker. In doing this, they are utilizing the flanker as an outside blocker while the tight end runs the streak or post and leaves the offensive line open, usually on the right side. I believe this is why Alex Smith, Shaun Hill or whoever the quarterback has been has been consistently left open and prone to pressure mostly from a 4-3 defense.

I know Vernon Davis is great and all at his position, but typically you are not supposed to use the tight end like a wide receiver. Most of the time, the tight end should be assisting the offensive line and acting as an additional receiver when needed.

To simulate a typical formation:

x x x x x x 9 x

x x

9 = Tight End.

When the tight end (9) leaves the offensive line to run a route, the line is left open because it is at least one man short. A defender can easily get through on the right side as (a) the flanker is busy "blocking" a cornerback and (b) the fullback is usually trying to block for the halfback.

I think these are the problems that need addressing. If anyone has anything to add, please feel free.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.

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so, you're saying

VD should block more? Before this season, the common complaint was “VD is blocking too much”.

When the tight end (9) leaves the offensive line to run a route, the line is left open because it is at least one man short. A defender can easily get through on the right side as (a) the flanker is busy “blocking” a cornerback and (b) the fullback is usually trying to block for the halfback.

Why is the tight end leaving to run a route if the FB is blocking for the HB and the WR is blocking a CB? What kind of play is being run?

by Andrew Davidson on Mar 19, 2010 11:59 AM PDT reply actions

No kiddin’

If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU

by rlott#42 on Mar 19, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions

I think you're right about the WCO

VD can block very well and should be used more in that regard, just as long as we have a playmaker in Crabtree to help compensate.

Frank Gore is the perfect WCO RB because he has developed into a fine receiving back. I’d be curious to see how Alex Smith could perform out of this system. Of course this would require an entirely new system, which would be a hinderance on Alex’s performance to say the least.

by mr. instigator on Mar 19, 2010 12:05 PM PDT reply actions

I think he is wrong about the WCO, we don't have a WC QB.

by rlott#42 on Mar 19, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Maybe....

The BIGGEST problem with WC QB’s isn’t physical…..it’s MENTAL. Montana, Young, and McNabb were/ are all great WC QB’s because they spent hours, if not DAYS studying defenses, so as to make the right call for their receivers. Then the physical came in by executing the play flawlessly. Defensive reading can be taught, if enough emphasis is put into it. A fact Smith has either a) yet to learn, b) hasn’t been taught. Once that’s in place, and once his confidence is built well through the foundation, I think he MIGHT turn into a serviceable WC QB. Till then…only time will tell.

K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr

by DarkkStarr1 on Mar 20, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions

I personally

Don’t think that Smith has those type skills. I’m not saying he couldn’t be a good QB but I would agree with rLott that he does not seem to have those play recognition abilities. And let’s face it, I’m not sure that Jimmy Raye and his staff are ones that are able to teach him.

by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions

Thanx for making my point.

K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr

by DarkkStarr1 on Mar 20, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions

So you agree that WCO would be wrong for the team right now?

Seemed to indicate that you felt otherwise.

by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions

It's the offensive coordination, huh?

This is so far from the truth, that it is breath taking. The Offensive was not set to be a smash mouth offense. Being able to run when you want does not mean smashmouth. It just so happen, we couldn’t throw downfield and it appeared to be a smash mouth team because the first ten yards after the LOS was conjested.

Sing has always wanted a balance, and the addition of the spread was due to Smith being worse at making reads from under center. Going to the WCO would require a whole new roster of QB’s and OC, and QBC. May as well say HC, because someone has to know the system in and out.

We do not have an offensive line that will allow us to dictate our offense doing what it wants when it wants. nor do we have a QB that allows us to make any play call we want. The issue is players not the coaching staff or plays called.

by rlott#42 on Mar 19, 2010 12:42 PM PDT reply actions

What?

If the coaches are compitent they will understand and work with the limitations of their players. If they can’t make those adjustments, then it is indeed their fault.

by mr. instigator on Mar 19, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions

We made adjustments as the season progressed, I doubt that Smith or Hill could start for many teams around the leagu.

Coaches don’t draft the players or add the FA’s they work with the sraps they are given. Our coaching staff introduced a new offense with not many new additions from 2008 and did farely well considering the lack of skills at skill positions. It’s the coaches fault Smith is inaccurate and makes a lot fo poor reads, and their fault our offensive line and QB didn’t exceute, that is ridiculous.

by rlott#42 on Mar 19, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions

Well...

First of all, the excuse that we are lacking at the skill positions couldn’t be more false. Crabtree, Gore and Davis comprise a solid skill-position corp.

Nowhere am I saying the coaches are to blame for inaccuracy or poor reads. But imagine if you asked Peyton Manning to run the option, and he failed. Do you blame Manning or do you blame the coaches? That’s my point, you have to know your players. I

In all fairness, Raye did a good job of trying to accommodate Smith by switching to the ‘spread’, but let’s be honest, it was often too little, too late – and a majority of the time too predictable. So yes, just because we have a less than adequate QB, doesn’t mean Raye has an excuse for coordinating an offense that stunk (unless you consider "fairly well" to mean ranking 23rd in OFF DVOA).

by mr. instigator on Mar 19, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions

You have to not be paying attention to what you are typing when a rookie is one of the players you list. You are also ignoring how long they have been in the system and that matters as well.

by rlott#42 on Mar 20, 2010 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions

Ridiculous

If the fullback is blocking for the half back the TE won’t be peeling out on a route he’ll be in there blocking.

If he does peel out, we make up for that lack of a blocker by having the LG pull, or if it’s to the other side it will be the RG pulling.

Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010

by smileyman on Mar 19, 2010 12:59 PM PDT reply actions

And when did the team ever run the traditional pro-set formation?

Also instead of the traditional FB, unless they were going out of the I-form, the team tended to bring in Walker as a second TE providing additional blocking or match-up problems which helped free up Vernon to run his seam route

Additionally, i’m a little unclear about what you mean when they’re using the flanker to block…..i can’t recall too many times that they brought Morgan in motion and left him to match up against an LB except to seal the backside on the obvious run plays

by HaloFanInDC on Mar 19, 2010 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions

I understand

But the problem with such an arrangement is that it’s still less one receiver. When I started this fanpost, I was really trying to poke at the possibility that the team is frequently one man short in terms of receiving. I’m not discrediting Vernon Davis or Michael Crabtree. Both are excellent receivers. Josh Morgan is also a pretty good receiver, but his speed is just questionable when it comes to the position he’s playing (flanker).

My example was just an example, by the way. I don’t think the team has ever run a traditional pro-set formation. I was just trying to illustrate what I think was a recurring problem the entire year for the team; whereas, the tight end was practically doing the flanker’s job and the flanker was doing the tight end’s job, just as an outside blocker that lent minimal assistance to the offensive line and the quarterback. I think the best solution might be to design the plays in such a way that the tight end is not sent out on posts and streaks so much, even if he is capable. I’d be more comfortable with the coordinator sending the tight end out on slants and short stops.

I mean, if they really want to use Vernon Davis for deep receiving so much, they ought to move him to Wide Receiver and put somebody like Brit Miller or Delanie Walker in as Tight End.

by JHill26 on Mar 20, 2010 2:32 AM PDT up reply actions

That’s the thing, though. The fullback is ideally supposed to block for the halfback. But in such a scenario as my example of what I think they have been doing, they’re sending the tight end downfield and hoping the fullback can get up to the line in time to take his place. I don’t have any video footage, but I’m pretty sure I have seen Morran Norris rush to the line to try to fill in for Vernon Davis while Vernon Davis headed downfield. And most of the time, it seemed Morran Norris was just getting beaten by the pass rusher because of the natural distance between the backfield and the offensive line.

by JHill26 on Mar 20, 2010 2:37 AM PDT up reply actions

Wait, were you the OC in 2005?

by jsteez on Mar 19, 2010 1:19 PM PDT reply actions

Brent Jones caught a lot of passes in the WCO

Vernon presents an enormous mismatch to the defense and he’s been used as such. I agree that the best plays are not called all the time, but how they are using Vernon is probably what helped us score in a lot of situations last year

"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.

by Drew Kerr on Mar 19, 2010 1:28 PM PDT reply actions

In fact, Brent Jones had more catches than John Taylor most of the time throughout the time that they were teammates.

"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.

by Drew Kerr on Mar 19, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions

Yes, but I don’t think they ever relied on Brent Jones to play the position of flanker from tight-end, lol. Brent Jones usually ran short slants, from what I remember, which allowed him to stay closer to the offensive line especially in the event that he intuitively felt the blitz coming. It allowed him to block at least one defender to buy Joe Montana or Steve Young at least a bit more time to find an open receiver.

In the practical sense, I think they have been running the tight end as the flanker and the flanker as the tight end, or as an outside blocker that provides minimal assistance to the offensive line. I think somebody else here has said that in cases where they were having similar difficulty, they would just send in two tight-ends. That still leaves them one man short, though.

Maybe it’s just my bias toward the West Coast Offense scheme of things. I’m simply too used to the idea that the wide receivers should be the primary receivers and the tight end should primarily give support to the offensive line.

by JHill26 on Mar 20, 2010 2:42 AM PDT up reply actions

YES!

Preferably, we should heed the advice of Steve Young and revert to a West Coast Offense philosophy and a more dynamic passing game.

This is a must!

Bandwagoners are the prostitutes of fandom.

by SSC24 on Mar 19, 2010 11:06 PM PDT reply actions

Trust me, I feel the same way, lol.

It saddens me that something the 49ers immortalized (but didn’t truly event, as facts would prove it) and won five championships with is something that they are no longer using. Who knows, though. We could at least see a move toward the West Coast Offense again this season. I mean, I could be wrong, but I was quite sure that I saw glimpses of the old West Coast Offense philosophy in both the 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 seasons. It would only seem our once great 49ers offense is having an identity crisis, but may get back to the West Coast Offense eventually.

Alex Smith is a passer. Michael Crabtree looks like the second coming of Jerry Rice. Crabtree should play flanker and Morgan should play split-end, if you ask me. Could you imagine this current assembly of players combining the Smashmouth mentality with the West Coast Offense philosophy? It would be a hybrid offense of the likes nobody has ever seen. Maybe it will happen this year, but more than likely when Jimmy Raye bites the dust.

by JHill26 on Mar 20, 2010 2:47 AM PDT up reply actions

This is what I say:

1) The Forty Niners will eventually go back to the WCO, hopefully with Sing still as the HC.

2) Raye will not be the OC and Smith will not be the QB (I’d personally love to have Iowa’s RIcky Stanzi).

3) When this happens, SY and JR will probably be given jobs with the team.

4) Also, the tons and tons of video of Bill Walsh’s lectures that are currently sitting in a huge pile of dust in the dungeon known as the basement of Forty Niners HQ is Santa Clara will actually be watched.

5) I hope Jimmy Raye’s successor is a good judge of talent, because Jimmy Raye’s stupidity has Morgan starting…let alone over Jason Hill.

Bandwagoners are the prostitutes of fandom.

by SSC24 on Mar 20, 2010 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions

This will set us back a few more seasons. I can gurantee that Smith isn't ready for that style of offense, he is not accurate enough.

by rlott#42 on Mar 20, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions

Yes

I agree wit u…Smith is not accurate enough…plus this dude has had too many offensive coordinators anyway…thats part of the reason he has struggled…leave offense the way it is just so he could have some consistantancy

by Desi on Mar 20, 2010 10:29 AM PDT reply actions

JHill .........

Davis is a mismatch , there’s not a LB in the league that can cover him , heck maybe not a saftey either , you cant have him stay in to block too make up for the horrible play of O line ….What they need is more speed at wide out ,and im not think’n Morgan is all that fast …..Davis keeps the LB’s on their heel’s , Craptree seem’s to be a good possesion type ,but if we had some speed on the outside that would put the CB’s on their heels and open up the running game once they fix the O Line

Kewl

by Edggy on Mar 20, 2010 10:35 AM PDT reply actions

It all starts with the Line and the QB.....

At this point, whether it’s the WCO, the Option, (read: “WildCat”) or the Spread, (Read: “Run & Shoot” or “Run and pick a name”…..an offense by the way that flurished well in the NFL for many teams in the 80’s and 90’s until it was junked.) The problem on offense for the
Niners is the fact we have an incosistant O Line and a QB that is simply at this point…..HORRID! The Nineres need to fix both issues in order for the offense to get any better. Period.

K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr

by DarkkStarr1 on Mar 20, 2010 2:24 PM PDT reply actions

Smith isn't horrid.

Lost a little credibility with that. Derek Anderson, Jake Delhomme, and Jamarcus Russell are all examples of horrid QB play. Smith is at least average.

I survived the David Carr Press Conference Thread 3/06/2010
Credit to iaalexeeff
Against Mock Drafts with the Niners taking Joe Haden since 2009.
Eat Shitake!

by Hoopers Judge on Mar 22, 2010 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions