Would the addition of C.J. Spiller be the start of Niners claiming division title?
by Desi on Mar 19, 2010 10:32 PM PDT
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The way the team is made now I believe the Niners have a great chance to take the NFC west. With the draft coming up the team can go into many directions because even though the team is solid its still a lot of holes that needs to be filled...My opinion is there glaring needs are Offensive Tackle and punt and kick returner. C.J. Spiller is the most dynamic back in the 2010 draft and i believe he is going to be available for my Niners. He brings a change of pace back from Gore and Coffee and can even be split out. He also will fill the holes of both the KR/PR. Now if u look at the division as a whole there is a lack of a dynamic players that if u put them in space they can take it to the house. I believe if we draft Spiller we would absolutely terrorize the defenses in the divison in the way that the Saints use Reggie Bush...u even see the Titans split out Chris Johnson from time to time...can u imagine Spiller's type of elusiveness and speed out there with Gore, Crabtree, Morgan and Davis, and it will be yet another target for Alex Smith and his development. His impact on Special teams will be very very big and shorten the field for the offense. Currently there is no team in the division that would be able to match up with us.....atleast not for 60 mins.....wanna see wat my fellow Niners fans think about this.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Well let's see...hmmmmmmmmm.....
We were 5-1 in the NFC West last season and were unable to win the division. The offseason is not complete yet and we have to see what the Seahawks do with their draft picks. They could very well add E berry and a LT, or Spiller themselves. I think it’s too early to say what adding Spiller would do vs the division.
We also have to see what the Cards do, and I am not too sure we can plan on Linehart being horrible next season. The Cards have lost some players but did add a PR that they didn’t have last season. Will they sit on their hands and not draft well? Who knows, I think there are too many variables left for the equation to come up with an answer.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
I can’t take the Cards seriously without Warner being their QB. During the Super Bowl run the only thing going for them was their passing attack, though their defense did decide to become good during the playoffs after being one of the worst regular season defenses.
The rumors are that the Cards want to run the ball more, the only problem is their RB’s have fumbling troubles, and Beanie Wells is their best RB. Also as we all know we can handle opposing rushing attacks fairly well.
For the Cards to even have a chance to get a 10-6 record, like last year, Leinart has to be at least as good as Warner. Somehow i don’t see that happening.
I survived the David Carr Press Conference Thread 3/06/2010
Credit to iaalexeeff
Against Mock Drafts with the Niners taking Joe Haden since 2009.
Eat Shitake!
by Hoopers Judge on Mar 20, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Waste of a 1st round pick
1) Jimmy Raye is not Sean Payton……..let’s predict how effective Spiller will be when it’s 3rd and 8 and we try a run up the middle assuming of course he’s on the field because…..
2) Pass Protection…..we had fast small change of pace back (Kory Sheets) last year who got put on the practice squad because he had trouble protecting the QB…..unfortunately for the team, Frank Gore is by far the best pass blocking RB we have, which makes it that much more difficult to take him off the field in passing downs
3) KR/PR help can be found much much lower in the draft and at the same time we could help supplement an aging set of CB’s or find a true slot receiver without selecting a player with mediocre value to the team as it’s currently constructed.
Pass Protection…..we had fast small change of pace back (Kory Sheets) last year who got put on the practice squad because he had trouble protecting the QB
First, Kory Sheets was an UDFA, so let’s be clear about that right of the bat. Second, CJ Spiller is actually a fairly good pass blocker, but I assume that if he was in on a 3rd and 8, he’d more than likely be getting the ball on a pass, or running a route.
Now for the rest of you assumptions…. Jimmy Raye is not Sean Peyton, but no one is claiming that. What does Sean Peyton have to do with us drafting Spiller anyway? I dont understand why you brought him in to it.
And as far as your special teams thoughts… if you knew anything about CJ Spiller, you’d know that he was amazing at special teams and not just “anyone” can bring to the table what he does in that department.
Running back by comittee is the way most of the successful teams are going in the always evolving NFL. Let’s face the facts here, Frank Gore is not getting any younger, and a talent like Spiller is going to preserve some of the tread on his tires. More importantly, Glen Coffee just isn’t going to cut it if Gore is injured for any amount of time again. So basically to get what we’d get out of Spiller, we would have to draft two players to equal what value he brings to the team in one. We would essentially have to draft not only a special teams return guy, but another RB somewhere in the mid rounds in case Gore goes down. That to me is wasteful, not drafting Spiller.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Again, it is way too early to say you aren't gonna get anything from Coffee.
Anyways, we are gonna carry 4 Rb’s next year and we should stay in the spread O, comments aren’t adding up around here.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
How do we know Coffee’s not going to cut it, considering he’s hardly been given a chance? He had one game against one of the best run defenses in the league in Minnesota, then had an okay game against the Rams and finally barely touched the ball against whooping the team took against the Falcons. I’d say that’s a fairly big assumption itself.
Second, I’m aware that Spiller was a great special teamer in college. I don’t think I implied anywhere that he wasn’t. My whole point, and I guess we clearly disagree on this issue, was that you can find guys(Arenas, Gilyard, Saunders, Jefferson etc…) with similar return skills(but not all-around skills) in the later rounds. Additionally, our first round pick would seem to have more value if the player is going to be on the field for more than a third of the time. I would argue that using two day three picks (who can fill out the back end of the roster) would be better value to meet the needs of a rotational back and a KR/PR than spending a high to mid first rounder who might touch the ball 12 times a game.
Lastly, I brought up Sean Payton because the OP made the Reggie Bush comparing and how Bush was used all over the field in creative ways. Everyone talks about Spiller’s versatility all over the field, but that only gets utilized if we have the scheme to allow him to take advantage of his open-field talents. Sorry, just don’t see that type of creativity coming from Jimmy Raye.
by HaloFanInDC on Mar 20, 2010 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Coffee had almost 100 carries… it’s not like he only touched the ball once or twice. I am not saying he can’t be average… but he wasnt anything more than average in college, so what exactly leads you to believe he can be above that in the pro’s? There’s no evidence to validate that he may be a great back one day. And personally, I just dont think he should be the #2 on our roster. I am a firm believer of having the next RB waiting in the wings already seeded on your roster.
Special Teams: No, that’s not what I am saying. Obviously you can get other guys who are gonna average 20 yards a return on kicks and 7 on punts like the guys you mention above.. easy, no biggie. But anyone who watched Spiller last season knows he has dynamic ability, he’s explosive, and can break a game wide open. Is that really what we’re shooting for in the guys you mention…. average returners? Okay, but I was hoping to get more than that.
I just don’t get the philosophy of draft two guys and waste two slots in this draft when we can kill three birds with one pick. If we had only one pick in the first, I’d certainly be opposed as well, but now that’s not really the case is it?
Creativity: No one is saying you have to insert gimmick plays for Spiller; he is perfectly capable of running the rock (including up the gut), catching screens or check downs out of the backfield, and pretty much anything Gore is capable of doing. Gore is going to need some relief this year. And personally, I am really not content with Coffee as the back up based on his performance last year. Whether or not he will amount to anything is up in the air. Why hope for something this season and not do anything about it just in case it doesn’t pan out. Do you realize how much trouble th team would be in if Gore went down and Coffee had to step in and only played equivelant to what he did last year? We need to have options, and more than two.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
But we end up with the same problem we had for years.
we cann’t knock anyone out of the way. Coffee was lucky to avg. 2.7 yards considering how many times he was stuff behind the line. It’s a tough call, OL, RB or CB.
by LASVEGASNINER on Mar 20, 2010 2:15 AM PDT up reply actions
3rd and 8 and run up the middle when we are playing field position and have two bad QB's does not mean Raye can't be creative.
He got production out of our best weapons and the heralded Madden OC is praised around the league, WTF. he is a better OC than Martz.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Woah.
I was just taking a drink of soda when I came across that last sentance. Needless to say I had to wipe down my monitor afterward.
by mr. instigator on Mar 20, 2010 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions
His QB isn't sacked as much and he puts his best players in position ot make plays.
his QB and OL was not his selection and if Martz hadn’t inherited Vermeil’s team he would have never won a Superbowl. Martz is high risk high reward, compare Raye’s teams to Martz, then look at the FACT that his QB’s don’t last long and it’s not the OL, it’s his style of play. Martz gave away games we had leads in because he is ignorant.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
I agree with that...
I remember the game against the Eagles where the Niners had, what I believe was a double digit lead going into the 4th quarter. Then Martz had the idea to go pass happy, JTO had like 2-3 turnovers in a row, and the Niners lost by 14.
by sanfranfanmdk on Mar 20, 2010 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions
No
It’s that simple. I’ll flesh out my opinion in a fanpost when I get the chance, but no, he won’t. Spiller will not see the field enough to make a huge impact on the Niners in the next couple years, and you can draft a kick returner in the late rounds who will be nearly equal the caliber of Spiller. Drafting him in the first round is a poor use of resources.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 1:18 AM PDT reply actions
Good idea, that way when Gore goes down, so does the season. Nice Philosophy.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Right
They didn’t just draft a running back last year, not at all. There’d be no one to play would there?
This team still needs starters before it starts worrying about drafting backups in the first round. If they don’t draft a capable right tackle the season is over whether Gore gets hurt or not, how’s that? Beyond that, the secondary is just not very good. At least at running back you have a good player there, you just have to hope he stays healthy. That’s the way football works Drew, if Peyton Manning gets hurt the Colts season is over, that doesn’t mean they draft Jimmy Clausen in the first round before they draft guys they need to start at the other positions.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 1:40 AM PDT up reply actions
2.7 Yards a carry... and an average back in college... a 4th round projection taken in the 3rd...
But yeah, I am sure he is the second coming of Walter Payton.. there’s so much evidence to support that. Face the facts Brendan, the league is changing and there is a much higher need for multiple running backs on one roster.
Peyton Manning doesn’t get touched.. you do you realize Frank Gore is a running back don’t you? You do realize he’s not getting younger, right?
Apples and Oranges are always your best and most entertaining arguments.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
I didn't say he was Walter Payton (a typical absurd strawman)
Backup running backs don’t need to be Walter Payton Drew, stop embarassing yourself. He can be a capable backup, even if he was unimpressive this year.
Face the facts Brendan, the league is changing and there is a much higher need for multiple running backs on one roster.
Sigh, Drew, please don’t debate with me any more if you won’t listen to anyone but yourself. We talked about this a couple days ago. I am all for drafting a running back, just NOT in the first round! This is a deep RB class, I’ll take McCluster, Gerhart, Dixon, Hardesty, Blount, Scott, McKnight, Dwyer, or Tate in the middle/late rounds and have a just fine backup running back, even if you don’t believe in Coffee. I’ll also still have a 1st round pick to use on a starter that the Niners actually need much more than a backup running back who’ll get a few touches per game. There is a need for multiple running backs, but that is unrelated to the point (another strawman). There is no need for a backup in the 1st round.
Peyton Manning doesn’t get touched.. you do you realize Frank Gore is a running back don’t you? You do realize he’s not getting younger, right?
You do realize that Frank Gore wasn’t drafted anywhere close to the 1st round right? You do also realize that Ray Rice, MJD, Michael Turner, Marion Barber, Brian Westbrook, Brandon Jacobs, Pierre Thomas, Fred Jackson, Steve Slaton, Matt Forte, Ryan Grant, Chester Taylor, and Tim Hightower weren’t drafted in the 1st round either right? (And I believe only the 1st two were even drafted in the second round) Would these guys not be good enough backups for you? Capable running backs are the easiest thing to find in the draft. The idea that the Niners need to burn a precious first round pick to draft a BACKUP running back when they have other glaring needs at STARTING positions just doesn’t make sense to me, sorry.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
There is a need for multiple running backs, but that is unrelated to the point (another strawman).
Take a look at the name of the post Einstien. What do expect that Spiller would be. do you even know what strawman means, or are you like Ronaldinho and throw it out there to make try and seem like you are above a point. It’s really a sign of weakness in any argument. But maybe that’s why you cling to it like a baby and its binkie. I’ll tell you, it gives you zero leverage in a debate and makes you look foolish.
I’ll take McCluster, Gerhart, Dixon, Hardesty, Blount, Scott, McKnight, Dwyer, or Tate in the middle/late rounds and have a just fine backup running back, even if you don’t believe in Coffee
I stopped reading after this point because it’s clear you have zero knowledge about who is good and who is not in college football. There’s really no point to go any further. You are clearly oblivous and naive in regards to anything draft related.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Ok good
You’re wasting my time. If you don’t think running backs who have middle round grades should be drafted in the middle rounds and can play decently as backups then clearly it’s not worth debating.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 3:20 AM PDT up reply actions
There are other COP backs available
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Not many but yes there are
There is Jahvid Best and the merits and detriments have been noted almost as much as Spiller.
There is Deji Karim and he has some possibilities.
There is Lemarcus Coker and he has possibilities as well.
There also is Joe McKnight again for good and bad.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
McCluster
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
I'd rather have Karim in the 4th and use our firsts on Berry.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
And if the AND does not happen?
If Berry was not gotten by the team would you still feel that Karim would be a valuable pickup? Just trying to understand since you seemed to have made one pick dependent on the other. Just trying to clarify.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Most definitely.
A COP back is a need, but doesn’t hae to be a first round need. A guy like Karim will address that and allow us to upgrade OL, DB’s, ad whatever other position we need more talent at. We will not trade up for Berry, but I will not making it known that I think we should.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Cool!
Kinda figured that but I know a lot of people try and read into what you and Drew and some other regular posters say, so just making sure that was noted for clarity’s sake.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sold on the concept of a change-of-pace back.
Remember how before they won the super bowl, there was some question of whether the Saints would let Bush walk as a free agent.
Furthermore, it’s not like Gore is predominantly a bruiser. Even if you do want a change-of-pace back, sure, if you’re got Larry Johnson running back there someone like Spiller may make sense. But Gore can do pretty much everything Spiller can except return punts and kicks.
Regardless of speculation they had a COP back.
So did the Giants.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
There are other safeties and tackles by that same logic
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Yes and logical odds are we cannot get all 3
a draft is a fluid thing, there could be any number of wildcards. Pat Kirwan has SEA taking Spiller at 6. Others have Spiller being taken at 12 to Miam or other picks before ours. And numerous mocks have shown that Berry will be picked before our pick. It’s not an either or. We have noted Spiller as value and we have noted Berry of value. Let’s move on.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Move on to what exactly? The topic of conversation in this thread is CJ Spiller. If there was an Eric Berry thread, I am sure people would be talking about Eric Berry.
Just because a few people have Spiller and Berry mocked to other teams before our picks, does not mean that they cannot or will not fall.
The purpose of these blogs are to discuss these things, so when you say move on, I have to say I dont know what to “move on” to in a CJ Spiller driven thread.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Move on to what are the other options.
BTW was it decided by the powers to be that there would be no overall mock draft/draft thread being kept up? I saw a post by you saying it would be up but I do not see a new thread. Just wondering.
If Spiller is gone then what would you recommend as other options for the needs that he would fill? I’d like to hear that from you. A bit of flexibility is a good thing.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know yet, what we’re going to do with the mock draft post yet. Still need to talk it over with Fooch. We can continue to use the one that is up for general mocks drafts right now… so stay tuned on that.
As far as other options, I realize that there is a chance we may not get Spiller and some of my mocks have even not included him. I’m not preaching Spiller or bust. The reason I get so vocal about it is because the nay sayers think that there’s absolutely no chance that he is going to be wearing red and gold next year and I dont think that is being very real with themselves and everybody else here.
Alternate Options: I feel like a few select players are gone by our picks, it may not be a bad idea to trade back and stock pile on 2nd-5th round picks. If we draft a bunch of talent in the middle, then we have alot more options. I am all about having options and good to great depth. The reason that a few teams (Pats, Colts, Steelers, etc) are always in the playoffs is because they have great depth. If you look at the list that I provided below, you’ll notice that a majority of our starters were not 1st Rounders. We basically have two elite players on our team that were 1st Rounders in Willis and Davis. I didn’t even go in to our depth and role players really either; there are plenty more non-first rounders on this team that do very good when they’re in. By drafting the way suggested above (trading back) you have more players to chose from when push comes to shove which increases your odds of not having any busts and potentially a few guys that were overlooked as first round talent for whatever reason (See: Frank Gore). There will be a players that are drafted way later out of this draft that will end up having better careers than some of the 1st round selections.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Guess my note to you is..
don’t let the bast***s get you down. The naysayer’s opinion is their opinion as your opinion is yours. :-) I suppose that I just am feeling that a more well rounded look at things may be better.
As far as your alternate options I agree highly with you that the value in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even further should not be ignored. Nor should the FA possibilities. Pitts will not mean that we have no need to get an OG but it will mean that we have more of a free hand at “taking a chance” on a lower round prospect such as Petrus or Jerry or Newhouse.
One funny thing I noticed in your post is that you noted not a single Rb as an “If not Spiller then…” option. :-)
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I have already noted Best as being another guy that would be a back up plan in other threads. But his concussions are a concern. As far as a COP back, I think those two are really the only ones worthwhile. I don’t think McKnight will be good enough, McCluster may not even play RB, and the drop off from Best and Spiller in regards to a COP is quite steep.
If we cannot get either one of them, I don’t think guys like Pat Paschall or Deji Karim are nearly in the same ballpark of talent as them. So if we miss on Spiller or Best, the best way to go as a plan B, is invite a couple guys like Coker, Steele, or West to camp as UDFA’s similar to what we did with Kory Sheets and hope they pan out.
The only other general purpose backs I’d consider is possibly Gerhart, Hardesty, or Tate. All the others are not even an upgrade over Coffee who in my opinion is not that good (rookie or not), but I guess we’ll see. I think it is imperative to get a COP back and that’s sort of what I have been getting at. I am all for getting the best of the best and not guys that don’t have as much upside.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
I agree with you on the need for a COP back
not sure if I’d use imperative as the word but it is a high need on this team. And I have to say that I feel that Coffee is pretty much Decaf in my mind at this time but I hope he proves me blatantly wrong. Interesting your input on Karim, I’m starting to warm to him a bit more as a pick in the 6th or 7th and as you know I’ve always liked Coker. Paschall I don’t know why but hasn’t done much to win me over.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
How is Karim not worth while
He has a 4.37 40 time he was productive at his school, he carried more in between the tackles and guards than Spiller and is lower to the ground and almost 15lbs heavier. SOunds more durable to me.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
That muct be why he’s projected in the 5th-6th Round and Spiller is projected in the 1st… because they’re so close in talent.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Umm I don't think he was saying they were equal
he was just noting certain skills and abilities that he had. A note on another COP back is not an attack on Spiller it is simply looking at the position honestly.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
But this is the exact debate that I have to argue… when a player has a (93) rating versus a player who has a (49) rating, there’s reason’s for that. Do we really want anther Kory Sheets who’s may not even make the team and keep repeating that same scenario year in and year out?
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
But doesn't the 93 rating speak for itself?
sorry just feel like you’re hurting your own cause by seeming to be scared to honestly talk about other player’s qualities.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I am not scared at all. In fact, do you remember a while back when I sort of introduced you all to Karim in one of the offseason posts? The thing is, if we end up with someone else I’ll obviously support them. As much as I don’t think Coffee is that good, I still want to see him do well because I am a 49ers fan. But I am trying to get everyone here to take an honest look at the drop off. Do we want a guy who can potentially be a Chris Johnson caliber player, or are we shooting for the next Kory Sheets? That is sort of the point. We can talk all day long about other players and thats fine, I have no problems with that. I did it a bunch in our official offseason posts while the season was in progress and a short time after even. I have even answered all your questions as honestly as I could above… giving you other options that I’d be okay with. Again, I think everyone here has pinned me with this “Spiller or Die” type of mentality and that’s not it at all. I do realize that the odds are stacked against me. But I also know that the 49ers have interviewed and expressed interest… so that being said, they feel he is wothy of their time.
You said it yourself earlier, people are starting to mock Spiller alot higher now… there is a reason for that. And my only point is that we not close the door on the idea because there’s more “Kory Sheets” entering the league.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there is a good chance we go after Spiller
I’m actually trying to help denote that you don’t really have the Spiller or Die attitude that it comes off as at times. And I don’t know that I’d put Karim or Coker in the Kory Sheets category. Both have more blocking ability or desire than he does. I actually was a bit upset last year that we didn’t pick up Rashad Jennings who might have actually been better than even Coffee.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I would have even been better with Spiller’s ex-teammate who is now Jennings’ teammate in Cleveland James Davis. He didn’t see any playing time really but I think he has skills.
Here is one of the very few touches he got last season:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCo_oAglu48
I think I would have rather had him than Coffee.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yh_P9rkO-A&feature=related
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Rashad Jennings plays on the Jags not the Browns
You’re thinking of Chris Jennings.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
There is no factual evidence that is gonna compare SPiller to a CJ and Karim to a Kory Sheets.
He, unlike Sheets, can pass block. he also unlike Spiller and like CJ weighs over 200 lbs. he is built closer to the ground like a MJD and could be better in the league, or just as serviceable as a COP RB.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
He is no Kory Sheets.
If not for his school he’d be rated higher. I wouldn’t put too much stock into those ratings, those same ratings had Bush as a high first rounder and MJD as a 2nd, so who is making sense putting a lot of stock in that?
Definitely not what you want to base your picks on is some anaylysts ratings.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
The school he played at has a lot more to do with that then talent.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
nay sayers think that there’s absolutely no chance that he is going to be wearing red and gold next year
It’s not that I don’t think there’s no chance he’ll be with the team, it’s I don’t think he’s a good fit for the team. The arguments of whether he merits being selected by the team (my impression of what we’ve been debating) and the argument that the team will actually draft him (due to team philosophy, needs, etc….) are different ones in my mind, even though in this case I think the answer would still be the same (team took coffee last year, smaller in size, team loves robinson and won’t want to carry more people at that spot, etc….).
That said, you being vocal about Spiller is what makes all the time leading up to the draft fun and interesting (or any other back and forth over a specific player for that matter). It’d be boring if everyone just had a love fest over one player (well except in the case you’re getting a Lebron like player). Ultimately I don’t think I’m going to change your mind nor you change mine (it’s just a the different ways that people value a player), but the discussion provides an interesting read and help persuade the undecided others where they sit in the debate.
Really?
I didn’t know.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
You do realize that Frank Gore wasn’t drafted anywhere close to the 1st round right?
Let’s dig a little deeper than that statement shall we?
Frank Gore (3rd Round)
David Baas (2nd Round)
Eric Heitmann (7th Round)
Chilo Rachal (2nd Round)
Josh Morgan (6th Round)
Delanie Walker (6th Round)
Moran Norris (4th Round)
Isaac Sopoaga (4th Round)
Aubrayo Franklin (5th Round)
Parys Haralson (5th Round)
Ahmad Brooks (3rd Round)
Shawntae Spencer (2nd Round)
Dashon Goldson (4th Round)
Michael Lewis (2nd Round)
Tarell Brown (5th Rounder)
Seems to me that other talent regarding “needs” can be found in other rounds as well. Doesn’t seem to me that a majority of our team was selected in the 1st Round. Like I said before, teams draft for value in the 1st… including the 49ers. C.J. Spiller happens to have a lot of “value” because of his ability to do a lot of things in different areas. He can spice up the offense and add fire power to special teams, among other things. That’s probably why the Niners have interviewed him twice.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
THIS
Is why I would trade up.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Over at Mocking the draft 7 round mock
1. Brandon graham
2. Mike Iupati
3. Valdheer
4. Jacoby Ford
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
No sir, I made it to the draft late, the hiefs guy would have done a 1,2,3 for our 1sts
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
BRAVO SCOLARI, BRAVO!
I agree completely with your statement. There is no need to draft a backup in the first round when we can focus on 2010 starters with the first two 1st round picks and no i don’t mean special team starter.
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
See above
Seems to me that other talent regarding "needs" can be found in other rounds as well. Doesn’t seem to me that a majority of our team was selected in the 1st Round. Like I said before, teams draft for value in the 1st… including the 49ers. C.J. Spiller happens to have a lot of "value" because of his ability to do a lot of things in different areas. He can spice up the offense and add fire power to special teams, among other things. That’s probably why the Niners have interviewed him twice.
How do you know who we draft will even be starting? That’s pure speculation. Not everyone that ends up getting picked in the 1st ends up starting. Or even good or making it in the NFL for that matter.
Furthermore, there is a chance that we draft him. What are going to do then? Through tomatoes, or support him because you love the 49ers? The team has expressed interest in Spiller, so bravo, bravo all you want.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Stopped reading @ see above...
your opinion will not be swayed and I don’t think anyone is trying to sway it, but your explanations are getting boring and pointless at the same time. Personally I don’t see the logic of drafting a running back when in reality that is not an immediate need. But if we do, I will support my team. I believe we will address our OL in the first round… spiller is more of a luxury pick, which in turn we can’t afford to make that pick. He would also demand the ball due to his contract, what kind of message would that send to Gore? Regardless, my opinion stays the same Spiller will be a horrible pick for a team that needs to sure up the Guard and RT position. So Bravo Drew Bravo your dying support for Spiller shows what kind of faithful you are. Your are a great fan!
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
by bayboy on Mar 20, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
We have three backs on the roster, are we cutting bait with Robinson?
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
currently 4 RB and 3 FB
RB: Gore, Coffee, Robinson, Clayton
FB: Norris, Miller, Caulcrick
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Gore and Coffee are the only true running backs
Out of Miller and Norris, only one of them will probably be on the 53, unless they use Miller in a FB/ TE/ ST type of role and dump Robinson. So really I only see 3 which includes one of the FB’s. We only have 2 real RB’s on this team right now.
You can pretty much scratch Robinson, Clayton, Caulcrick, and I’ll even throw in Lattimer for that matter which you didn’t include.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Do you think the FO would cut Robinson or list him at another position?
They traded Hill, they should do the same with Robinson, he is essentially ating a roster spot.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
I find it extremely humorous that you actually consider Robinson as a real RB.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
+1
I respect the fact that he’s a great locker room presence and good on special teams, but at some point you need position players who can contribute on special teams and not the other way around
by HaloFanInDC on Mar 20, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think he is, but he does fill up one roster spot at the position.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Are you high?
Good BACK UP RB can be found ANYWHERE in the draft. Can we go back in the time machine a sec? The best RB in the league was Terrell Davis in Denver, and the Mile High City was on fire! Yet, when he went dopwn, who stepped up his game? A little known former Marine named Mike Anderson: who just so happened to bust a Grand in the yardage dept that year and kept the Broncos season alive. Not felling that one? Let’s come a little closer to our time….The year the Giants won the SB, they had RB by commitee. With the likes of Brandon Jacobs (4th Rd), Ahmad Bradshaw (7th Rd), and Derrick Ward (7th Rd), and the latter 2 were chosen in the 200’s mind you! The point he’s making is that there’s no need to go hog wild in choosing a guy in the first rd simply so he can sit on the sideline while the starter is in. Then, he MIGHT do something on ST, when he has the opportunity. No….not a good use of a first rd pick if you ask me. Especially when there are other parts of the team that could use the upgrade NOW! Like O Line, Secondary, or even QB.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
QB. OL, and S can be had in later rounds too… you act as if, RB’s are the only ones that have stepped in and done a good job when a player has went down with injury
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Barry Sims wasn't even drafted, look what he was able to do in filling in for Staley
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
If you want someone who's going to be a starter in game one of his rookie year ...
It gets a lot harder once you get outside the first round, particularly with o-line. It happens, absolutely. But you’re more likely to end up with someone like Rachal with major holes which need development compared to drafting in the first round.
Well we need to address right tackle and most of the first round prospects are naturally left tackles. It’s a pretty big gamble to assume they can make a smooth transition. This is why I was upset when we let Pashos go. He had already proven in his 6 years previous to this. That’s why Holmgren plucked him from us and expected him to start. If we have a rookie RT going up against guys like Joey Porter, is that really going to be an upgrade over Adam Snyder? I am thinking possibly not. Learning new position coupled with rookie in the league going up against probowl outside linebackers or defensive ends is a recipe for disaster.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
I'm not that worried about taking a LT and turning him into a RT.
It worked for Staley. That’s not conclusive proof that it’s never a problem, but the LT-to-RT switch works a lot more often than the reverse.
I share your concern, however, about letting Pashos go. He was valuable insurance … but I’m not sure you’re in great shape if you are going into camp with Pashos as your presumptive starter.
I love him as a backup, but …
but the LT-to-RT switch works a lot more often than the reverse.
Prove it.
Oher did it last year and Staley struggled in the transition from what I remember. The exception is never the rule. It’s a pretty significant gamble when you’re speaking in terms of a 1st round selection and millions of dollars in salary cap money being tied up. You’re talking about taking on a new position in the pros vs college. The rookie transition in to the NFL is hard enough as it is for someone who is at their natural position.
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
but I’m not sure you’re in great shape if you are going into camp with Pashos as your presumptive starter.
6 year veteran who has played that position all the way from college in to the pro’s vs. a rookie left tackle being moved to right tackle to learn that position from scratch basically.
I think I’d take Pashos in that scenario. But that obviously is going to be another difference in opinion.
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
I have to side with Drew on this one, I would much rather draft a RT or a player that has played RT more than LT.
I think we end up with the tackle that Drew doesn’t want us to have, I think it’s Williams.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
What would constitute "proof" of such a thing?
Staley did fine as a rookie. Oher did fine. Didn’t the 49ers move Jennings from LT to RT after a whole career on the left in his final season here?
The skill set just isn’t that different. Yes, you have to change your footwork, but the primary differences are things that make life on the right side easier:
1) You have TE support more often on the right, making you less vulnerable to outside speed rushes.
2) You’re not guarding the QB’s blind side, so when you do get beat the QB has a better chance to see it coming and get rid of the ball.
3) Because of the above, most teams line up their top pass rusher on the offense’s left, so you’re facing top pass rushers in the league less often on the right.
This is balanced by having to do a little more power drive-blocking on the right, as most teams run a little more to the right than the left, but this isn’t a new skill for someone playing LT, it’s just a question of emphasis.
I have confidence that anybody with enough athleticism to be taken in the first round of the NFL draft can learn to reverse his footwork. It’s really not a substantially different position. I remember Staley talking about that challenge, but he was effective as a rookie.
Loadholt was a second-round pick last year who played LT in college, and moved to the right with reasonable success as a rookie. Andre Smith played LT in college but played RT in the pros as a rookie. YOu mentioned Oher … would you like me to dig up more examples?
I don’t see much evidence to see these guys as “exceptions.” Or any, really.
To me those are all examples of the exception. And I dont know how you think Staley did fine at right tackle; I am lost on that because there were several times he looked like Snyder over there his rookie year. Jenning was moved over to right tackle because of his age and the injury at the end of the road, not as a rookie having to adjust to the speed and strength of players at the pro level. Does Smith even count? They had to use their other right tackle (Dennis Roland) as a tight end in a majority of their sets to help Smith out because they knew he’d be a liability over there coming in to the middle of a season like he did. Plus, the main thing is that most of those guys had experienced playing the other tackle position in college and alot of these guys havent played a snap over there.
When you ask me would I like you to dig up more examples, the answer is yes, I would. Becaue really the only ligit example you have there is Oher (one player). In the meantime, I’ll come up with a list of the failed projects and we’ll see what comes of it.
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
The challenge is:
Which guys “fail” because they don’t have the chops to be an NFL tackle, and which guys fail because they struggle with the transition.
The simple truth is that you expect a rookie to struggle a little bit. Loadholdt looked great for parts of the season, looked like a rookie in others. Is that because he moved to the right, or because he was a second-round pick who was asked to start right away?
Smith, on the other hand, was struggling with the necessary quickness regardless, which is why IIRC some people were talking about him as a natural RT in college.
Furthermore, it’s pretty common to see guys who can’t cut it at LT move to the right – and if you can’t cut it there, they stick you at guard.
Whereas almost every college puts their best linemen, period, at LT – and expects him to learn the skills.
I’m confused, though: I understand your concerns about Smith as an example (time will really tell if he develops into an NFL tackle or not) but why are you dismissing Loadholdt?
I would imagine that even if the pick was a 1st rounder he will perform better at the position he has played most, and there would be less of teaching the transition and could focus more on perfecting technique with experience behind it vs
Going to the Next level and learning a new position that has a different technique that he isn’t familiar with.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
More examples:
Chris Williams was a LT in college, will start his professional career (his missed most of last year due to injury) as a RT.
Brandon ALbert played LT last year, is penciled in to play RT this year.
Cherilus played RT 3 years in college, followd by LT 1 year in college, and I believe he now plays on the right side.
Jeff Otah plays on the right, doesn’t he? (Or am I mistaken here. It’s possible.) He was a LT in college.
When Joe Thomas won the LT spot, the guy he displaced moved to RT.
Winston Justice was an LT at USC, wasn’t he? Now plays on the right for Philly.
I can keep looking.
The thing is, most colleges put their best tackle at LT, period, and few colleges have two guys on the line good enough to go in the first two rounds. Therefore, whether or not someone is a “prototypical” RT, he’s often going to play LT in college because the team will rarely have a better option for LT.
Thus you see a lot of first-two-round tackles who played LT in college but move to the right in the pros, especially as rookies (where teams don’t want to trust the LT spot to a rookie).
Completely disagree with your premise
RT requires a different skill set than LT does. Yeah you can move a guy to LT if he fails at RT (at least you can try), but it doesn’t always succeed. Colleges may put their best tackles at LT, but that doesn’t mean NFL teams draft those guys to play LT.
The perfect example this year is Trent Williams. He moved to LT his senior year but he’s being projected as a RT in the NFL.
As far as the guys you’ve mentioned, Brandon Albert was drafted as a RT and got moved to LT after he was drafted. His natural spot is RT. Cherilus was drafted by the Lions specifically to play RT—they already had Backus at LT whom they had just signed to a long term deal.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
No disagreements about Albert or Cherilus ...
My point is that you’re talking about college LTs who play RT in the pros.
Whether or not a guy is “drafted to play LT” isn’t really my point at all. My point is that these guys played LT in college and made the transition quickly and easily to RT in the pros because their pro team thought that was a better position for them.
The skillset is close enough that teams don’t have a problem taking a guy who’s been playing LT and pencilling him in as a RT … exactly what we’d be doing with most of the tackles we could realistically expect to take in this draft. The crux of the disagreement is that some people in this thread think that’s an unreasonable change which creates a high risk of failure and I don’t.
Again I disagree
The skillset is close enough that teams don’t have a problem taking a guy who’s been playing LT and pencilling him in as a RT
The skillset is not the same at all.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
Footwork is a huuge part of it
Pretend that you’ve suddenly been magically changed to be the opposite hand of whatever you are (right hand to left hand and vice versa). Then try to do your normal, everyday tasks with that in mind.
It’s not easy. That’s why the transition from one side to the other is so difficult.
Pass protection is also more difficult. It’s easier for a LT to use his defender’s momentum to carry him outside the play. Because of the way a QB throws you can’t really do that with the RT position.
Because you can’t use momentum as much you generally need a bigger guy at RT. There’s a reason there are so many converted TE playing at LT in the league.
RT are generally bigger—or at least shorter and stockier than LT. Of course this isn’t universally true but it’s generally true
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
I don't think the comparison between handedness is really appropriate
People don’t pick a side of the line based on their handedness. It’s merely a reps thing: they’ve had a lot more reps at one side than the other.
I categorically disagree that pass protection is more difficult. You’re not usually up against the best pass rusher, the QB has better vision of what you’re doing, and you have TE help more often – so quite the opposite, I think pass protection on the left is much harder. That’s why those guys are paid more money, that’s why its the most important o-line position from a phyiscal standpoint (from a mental standpoint, center is more difficult, but that’s a different discussion).
Nor do I agree about the momentum thing. You see it happen all the time on both sides of the line – probably slightly more on the left, but again, that’s because the speed outside rush usually comes from the offense’s left.
I’m glad you added the “generally” true thing about size. Because I agree with you, but think there are enough exceptions that it’s a relatively small consideration.
Which of my statements is that relevant to?
I was actually enjoying the way this sub-thread had been focused on football and not been personal.
I'm asking because I think if you had
you’d know that it takes a different skill set to play RT than LT.
The NFL also agrees that it takes a different skill set. That’s why LT go in the first round and RT go in the later rounds. It’s why LT make so much money and RT don’t make nearly as much.
If they were interchangeable they’d be valued the same by NFL teams and scouts.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
I'm not saying they're interchangeable!
Yes, LTs are generally better than RTs. That’s why I don’t understand why you say that pass protection is harder for RTs. (Pass protection is why LTs are paid more!).
For the record: I never said they were interchangeable. I said the transition from college LT to pro RT does not appear to be particularly difficult, and I’ve cited lots of examples of players who have successfully done it.
I’d be curious to see what percentage of pro RTs played LT predominantly in college. I suspect its not a trivially small number, it’s not the rare “exception” Drew thinks to say it is.
Weren't you going to provide some evidence, Drew ...
or are you just going to keep making snide comments, claiming you have evidence, and making pronouncements?
I’d be curious to see what percentage of pro RTs played LT predominantly in college. I suspect its not a trivially small number, it’s not the rare "exception" Drew thinks to say it is.
I think it is, but that’s an interesting research project that I might undertake in the future.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
I would be very interested in seeing what you come up with if you ever do that..
One of the challenges I discovered when starting to look at this info is that there isn’t – at least that I’m aware of – an easy place which lists which tackle position everyone plays, and which tackle position they played in college. You have to do a fair amount of digging.
How did it work for Staley?
He sucked at RT, and isn’t that good at LT, he was outplayed by Barry Sims for crying out loud.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
A point Drew and I have made is there is no other CJ Spiller in the draft.
And there isn’t, there are other COP backs, but Spiller has a gear that they don’t.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
That is very true
But it is also true that a well rounded team is important as well. As you yourself has pointed out.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with that as well. I just want pieces that I think can break a game wide open and Spiller can do that, Berry can do… I am not saying it absolutely HAS to be Spiller. I want this team to draft guys who will impact points on the scoreboard. Look how many successful probowl caliber lineman that have been drafted in rounds 2-7.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
Yep or even UdFA
Like Deji Karim or Lemarcus Coker :-)
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Karim gets drafted, he is better than McKnight, which isn't saying much, but if McKnight is drafted ahead of him, someone blew it.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
I think that’s a little misleading. If you’re going to try and make that comparison really can’t work in absolute numbers. Yeah there are a large number of pro-bowl guys from rounds 2-7, but there are just that many more drafted. Maybe if someone has the time (or the willingness) it’d be interesting to see the ratio of OL taken in the first round/the number who have become pro-bowlers versus the number of OL taken in 2-7/those that have become pro-bowlers
smileyman has already done that and I think it ended up being a 50/50 spilt, or close to it.
"If you're not first, you're last" -Reese Bobby.
I've already done it
Look for the posts on the drafting status of players taken in the first—I’ve done two different posts.
It’s basically a 50/50 split in the 1st round when you take a tackle. If you take a guard it’s a much better success rate, same with center.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
Wasn't Gore selected in the 3rd round ?
Good backs are available in the later rounds. Last year Gore made the most out a serious bad OL by himself. That’s what great talent does.Gore has run for the 3rd best total yardage since he been in the league. Thanks in part to the OL. I do agree that I wasn’t pleased with Decaf, but when the Offense runs up the middle over 70% of the time,Its easy to stack the DL all the time. That was no surprise to anyone.
C.J. Spiller reminds me...
…of DeSean Jackson. To me, he is like a running back version of DeSean Jackson. They’re both questionably smaller players who yet possess explosive ability. Unlike DeSean Jackson, though, there doesn’t seem to be so much as a “diva” attitude. Then again, I base this assumption on how they celebrate touchdowns in the in-zone as well as how they tend to act in general.
I don’t know if the 49ers will be guaranteed a divisional title or playoff contention strictly because of C.J. Spiller or any other player. But I do know drafting a change-of-pace player, in general, will certainly open the door to a lot more things. I will be disappointed if the 49ers pass on this opportunity.
On another note, it looks like the front office and Mike Singletary are more likely to address the needed positions at the offensive line and safety via free agency. It is likely the 49ers may draft either or both C.J. Spiller and Taylor Mays to complete what could be a very, very, very intimidating defense. It may also lead to the production of the first truly promising offense we have seen since Steve Young led the team. I say this because to me, Jeff Garcia’s reign was never really that promising, and it had probably caused me to stop watching football for several years.
Except
The Niners actually you know… needed a wide receiver, seeing as how their #1 was old man Bruce. So Desean would have actually been able to play every snap instead of just a handful a game. He also went a whole round later than where Spiller is probably going to go.
On another note, it looks like the front office and Mike Singletary are more likely to address the needed positions at the offensive line and safety via free agency.
I’m not sure where you got this idea. To my knowledge there’s not much left in free agency to address either spot. And let me just say I think drafting Mays with the #13 or #17 pick would be just as bad or worse than drafting Spiller.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Also
I’ve gotten the idea that Singletary and the front office may be opting to address key positions via free agency based on what they’ve been doing lately. This likely signing of Chester Pitts (good one, in my opinion) and possibility that they could be looking at other free agents too since they don’t seem to be openly big on too many of the draft prospects. At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised (or opposed to) if they brought back Terrell Owens, despite the popular consensus about him. I think what he learned from Jerry Rice could be beneficial to Michael Crabtree. And no, I don’t think his attitude or diva reputation could certainly rub off on Crabtree or the other younger receivers. This is because I don’t think every player sees every older player as a “mentor”. I think they’re a lot more like us than some of us would think, lol. They see from other players what makes them successful or unsuccessful as players, and they try to draw from it. I think the whole “personal influence” deal is entirely different.
Chester Pitts is a guard
The biggest hole on the Niners line is at RT. I’d still be really surprised if they didn’t draft an offensive lineman in the first round. And they aren’t really talking about signing any defensive backs as far as I know. TO is a possibility, but I don’t see how that would change their draft strategy.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 3:00 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't see why they wouldn't offer Bushrod a contract!
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
They might have and it might have been refused
An offer to NO could have been made including a trade of our second round and other things. I’m sure that feelers are sent out all day long by the FO or would hope there would be. Picking up Pitts does not preclude picking up Bushrod or Gaither or anyone such as that.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd get him and trade both first for Berry, well you see the sig.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Eh
I think it’d be a big mistake to give up two elite talents for one. Berry is not that much better than the guys who will be available when the Niners pick.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Not much better than who?
Safeties?? Yeah right, he is far superior than any safety in the draft and maybe better than any corner in the draft. 2 Elite talents whe we pick, there is at best 5 ELITE talents in the whole draft.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Not much better than
An O-lineman, Haden, Earl Thomas, Spiller, or one of the other guys who would be available when the Niners pick.
Would you really trade Trent Williams AND Joe Haden for Eric Berry? I think that’s pretty absurd personally, but then I hate trading up in most circumstances. You’re giving up two top players for one, and the one guy you’re getting is not that much better than either of the guys you’re giving up (ie: They are all first round talents).
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
IN a heart beat
You can get a starting RT in round 2 or later and Joe Haden is probably the 3rd best CB in this draft
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
An remember I am also adding a 2nd and maybe 4th in the trade.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Ah
Well that would change things quite a bit.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Disagree
“Starting RT” is a relative term. I mean, Adam Snyder was a starting right tackle, but he was awful. I’m sure you can get a decent RT in the 2nd, but you can get a better one in the 1st. Also, you’re not looking at the opportunity cost. If I keep the picks I can add the better RT in the 1st and still use the 2nd round pick to get another player, so I don’t think that argument is valid.
Also I’m a bit confused why Niners fans are so down on Haden. It’s seems to me like he’s almost universally considered the top corner in the draft, and lots of draft experts think he’s a top 10 talent. What’s not to like exactly?
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions
There will be good starting RTs available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds
Drafting a 1st round RT is a bit of overkill, especially if that RT can’t play LT which is the case with Williams.
As far as Haden goes I’ve seen enough games he’s played in to form my opinion. He was blessed with a great front 7 and a safety who rescued him more than once. He’s terrible in run support and his coverage is only so-so. I’d rank both Patrick Robinson and Kyle Wilson ahead of him.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
To some exten I agree
I wouldn’t be terribly excited about adding Williams, but I do think it’d be better than trading both first rounders.
Interesting points about Haden. I’ve seen quite a few Florida games, but I’m in no way qualified to scout most defensive players. Why do you think so many people like him then? I heard Mayock say he was very good in run support, and while I don’t think anyone has called him a shutdown corner, the consesus has seemed to be that he is good in coverage and can make some plays.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Eric Berry plus an additional 2nd and 3rd (by points)
Would leave us with 1, 2, 2, 3, 3 selections vs 1,1,2,3 selections especially since the 2nd and 3rds we pick up are early round selections and not late.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
There's no way
You are trading the #13 and #17 for a 1st, a 2nd, AND a 3rd. Zero chance. You’d get a 1st and a 2nd, tops.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok, but 37th overall E Berry puts us in a good spot. He is arguably the best player in th draft at a position of need.
- overall = 1700 pts
- and #17 = 2200pts
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
13 and 17
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
I see your logic
I just wouldn’t probably do it personally, but I don’t think it’s a terrible idea. Berry would be a really great fit though…
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 21, 2010 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Adam Snyder was the top LT in the Pac 10 when we selected him in 2005.
Moved him to RT and he is horrible. majority of 1st round Tackles in this draft are LT’s and not right, aside form trent Williams. Calloway, IMO, is a better RT and comes from a more successful OL program from Iowa. So you can get a better prospect in the first not neccessarily a better RT.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
There's a logic flaw in your argument
You seem to think moving Adam Snyder to right tackle has something to do with him being horrible. It doesn’t. He’d be even worse at left tackle. He’s also awful at guard. He’s just not a good player, it has nothing to do with playing right tackle.
The positions are every similiar, I think most any player can switch from one to the other with some practice, it’’s just sometimes teams only want a certain guy on one side or the other (like if you don’t have quick feet, you can’t play left tackle, because the pass rushers will burn you all day). Basically, if you can’t play left tackle in college that usually means you can’t play either tackle spot in the NFL. That’s because the better player usually plays on the left side, so if you weren’t even the best tackle on your college team you are rarely good enough to play in the NFL. I think the vast majority of NFL tackles played LT in college, no matter which side they play in the NFL.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 21, 2010 2:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with that, maybe I should have used another example.
That’s because the better player usually plays on the left side, so if you weren’t even the best tackle on your college team you are rarely good enough to play in the NFL. I think the vast majority of NFL tackles played LT in college, no matter which side they play in the NFL.
Snyder was the Best LT in the Pac 10, so I have to disagree with this portion of the statement.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
That's true
But sometimes guys just don’t work out, it’s not a completely bulletproof thing.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 21, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Snyder played guard last year
Was moved to RT this year due to injuries on our O-line
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
I wouldn't give up both 1sts without acquiring an additional 2nd
From what I hear Trent Williams isn’t that good, according to Drew K. Besides he adds a lot to the defense, more than Haden or Earl Thomas. Being that he can cover TE’s and WR’s man to man, unlike a lot of players in the league at Safety. He has played all 5 DB positions and some LB in college. I would rather draft a RT in the 2nd and also take on one 1st round contract vs 2.
You are entitled to your opinion Trent Williams and an overrated CB, yeah I would much rather have Berry. I think Berry, a 2nd round RT and another pick in the 2nd is better than what will be available at our picks. E Thomas and Haden could easily be off the board before 13.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
You didn't say anything about a 2nd rounder before
Taht would certainly change the equation, although I still don’t know if I would do the trade. I know Drew doesn’t like Williams, but that’s still just one opinion and he doesn’t have to be the pick anyway. As for Haden, I’m confused as to why so many people think he’s overrated now.
I’d take Haden, Williams, and say Best or a safety in the second round over Berry and a 2nd round tackle for sure. You get three extremely talented players and I’m not convinced Berry isn’t overrated himself.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Best = a concussion case
I have thought Haden was overrated since last year. I watched him get eaten alive by better WR’s when his front 7 didn’t get pressure and it wasn’t 5 seconds in the pocket it was more like 3. I think he is overrated, and again that is just one opinion. So technically, it’s about what I would like to see, it’s not gonna be the best option in everyone’s eyes.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Yep for sure
Personally I’m hoping they trade back with the #13. If they could trade the #13 for a late #1/early #2 plus a 3rd rounder I think that’d be great. Imagine having 5 of the top 79 picks… that’d be sick.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
You cant trade the first for a 1st and an early second when it's trading back.
You also get there spot in the 2nd making it a late one, this is another reason trading up makes some sense.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
No I meant one or the other
A late 1st OR an early 2nd rounder plus a 3rd rounder is what I was hoping for in return.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions
You can't get an early 2nd out of the deal.
You’d trade a first for an early 2nd and 3rd but wouldn’t trade up and get the 5th overall in 1st and 2nd rounds? I don’t see how that s better.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
What I am talking about would get you E Berry and 4 of the top remaining 79 picks, what's the difference.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
You'd only have 3
2 2nd rounders and a 3rd rounder, so you’re losing a player there.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
only at #5 at #7 we would have those
If I were GM, I'd be looking at making the defense a top 5 defense.
I looked at Haden. He was basically squatting on all the underneath stuff knowing the chances of deep ball ever having time to develop was moot. It is sorta easy to the play position in that scenario. The best analogy I can come up with is a guy in basketball with 20 points because he is hanging back at half court and cherry picking the entire time.
I’m not going to say he cannot play but it’s hard to determine whether he can. At least lends a few questions to his 1st round status. On top of that he wet the bed at the combine. If a team is going to pick a CB that high in the draft you’d think top end speed would be a requirement.
My feeling is
that if they absolutely want to draft an OT that they should trade/sign Gaither with that 1st rounder instead. His a proven starter in the NFL and is young. Gaither would help immediately instead of having to wait for a rookie to develop.
We also keep talking about how this is Alex’s make-or-break year now that he has the talent and same coaching staff/offensive system around him. I’d rather have a proven starter at RT then a rookie in Smith’s reckoning season. Dispel any doubt about the OL’s quality.
I survived the David Carr Press Conference Thread 3/06/2010
Credit to iaalexeeff
Against Mock Drafts with the Niners taking Joe Haden since 2009.
Eat Shitake!
by Hoopers Judge on Mar 20, 2010 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Me too
But I was only considering draft options. I’m all for using a 1st, or especially a 2nd, to get Gaither.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
To play what position?
RT? or LT?
Gaither at RT- other teams would use a first and pay him LT money and the Niners won’t. If we use him as a RT he would still demand a LT salary which would be bad business.
Gaither at LT – would leave Staley to play RT and we would still have a hole at the position. Staley was a bad RT as a rookie and is a subpar LT as a vet, so we’d give up a first rounder and still have a RT hole, but we would have to use Staley there and take our chances and still have that question mark at the position.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
I'd use him as a RT for now
He still has three more years before free agency (assuming the cap doesn’t return) so I wouldn’t be too worried about salary just yet.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Teams have to sign the player away to receive him, it is not a straight up trade.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
They can still negotiate a trade if they want
Like the Seahawks did with Whitehurst. I don’t think he’d want elite LT money though, considering how little he wil be getting paid to stay with the Ravens I think he’d settle for quite a bit less than that.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 20, 2010 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions
It isn't what he will settle for, it's what other teams will offer him to play LT, which pays more than RT.
Rumor has it that as a Terrapin he didn’t like to play RT and prefers LT.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
But no other team has offered him a contract to this point have they?
So maybe he won’t have much of a choice…
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 21, 2010 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Teams are waiting everything out, due to the Uncaped season.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Exactly.
No team is willing to give up a 1st rounder for him when he is a UFA after June 1st if he doesn’t sign the tender I believe.
I survived the David Carr Press Conference Thread 3/06/2010
Credit to iaalexeeff
Against Mock Drafts with the Niners taking Joe Haden since 2009.
Eat Shitake!
by Hoopers Judge on Mar 21, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
No....AGAIN to T.O.!
If you want our receivers to play like Rice, why not just offer the REAL man the job as Receivers coach? This way, you bypass all the BS that comes with the dilution of Rice’s professionalism and knowledge, WITHOUT all the diva mentallity!
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
The best players often make the worst coaches
They have a hard time explaining what they did because they "just had it’ and aren’t able to translate it to the other players. I’m all for him coming in to talk to the players and consult and hope he does but I think he would have some detriments as the actual receivers coach. Imagine trying to learn physics from Einstein, probably wouldn’t get that far.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Mar 20, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Are you sure?
Seems to me, that’s EXACTLY what mentoring is and why T.O. became as good as he WAS when Rice was still there. Owens came to the niners when Rice was having his final farewell seasons in Frisco, yet, he TAUght Owens the ins and outs of becoming a better receiver. Hmmmmmmm…….sounds like a positions coach to me.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Having solid pros who can demonstrate a great work ethic and commitment to professionalism can definitely help a young receiver ...
But I’m baffled as to why people think TO has those skills.
Rice was famous for his workout schedule, and it’s hard to think that a young receiver coming into camp wouldn’t see that and think, “whoa, I better step up my game.”
And let’s not forget that Rice was still a highly effective receiver in his last seasons with the 49ers. He wasn’t done. The team followed the tradition of letting a player go before his skills started to decline.
So while Rice may have provided some mentoring, he was also mentoring by doing: leading by example, showing what it took to be a top receiver in the league.
On the other hand, TO is, in my opinion, clearly in decline. His gross numbers were pretty good last year, but his DVOA has fallen off a cliff, and it’s worth pointing out that multiple teams have now decided that he’s not worth the distraction. Unlike RIce in his last years as a Niner, it’s not clear that TO has that much left in the tank.
And speaking of the distraction, one has to remember that, unlike Rice, TO doesn’t have a reputation for being one of the hardest working players in the game. I’m not sure there’s much evidence to support the notion that he’d be a useful mentor. He also has a history of being difficult when asked to assume a secondary role – and on this team he’d, at best, be our third option in the passing game (after Crabtree and Davis). It’s hard to see how that goes well.
I’d like to give Morgan one more year before making a decision about whether that second WR spot really needs to be upgraded. Bringing in a veteran WR denies us to opportunity to know exactly what we have in him.
I don't think it's the distraction that teams are worried about
it’s his age. T.O has always had a good work ethic. He’s a gymn rat and he’s always kept himself in top physical shape. He’s always given his 100% out on the field too—I think those are traits he picked up from Rice.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
Thanks Ronaldinho and Smileyman....
I couldn’t have stated my point as eloquently as the two of you combined. Yet, Smiley, your rite, it IS T.O.‘s age that has kept teams from acquiring him here lately. (That and the fact his mouth has a tendancy to write checks for his team that they simply can’t cash.) Not necessarily the thing that you wnat to bring to a young budding team.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
I doubt this would be the case of Rice. He was very focused on details of the position.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
And you think that attention to detail at a SKILL POSITION is a bad thing to teach as a coach? WTF????!!!!
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
WHere do you get that from? I am saying that Rice would be a good WR coach because of this.
Use the up and locate the parent before you respond, please.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
Hey....my bad....not enuff coffee when I responded to you. Good lookin on the Jerry thought.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Hmm
I wonder what other prospects they could be looking at. I sure wish we had an insider, lol.
Do you believe in miracles?
Yes….getting Berry would be a HUGE boom for the Niners. But, with the outlook for this years draft and all the pub Berry’s been getting this off season, I have GREAT DOUBT that he’ll even be available by the time we get our 1st pick. Yes….I do realize that we lucked up on the best WR from last year’s draft by a miracle named Al Davis. But, I’m all for getting Berry. Just don’t hold your breath.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Can we be fair for a sec?
Yes…there is no doubt that Spiller is a great back ….for now. His stat line from the combine spells that out plainly. As well as the unwavering love, and opassion he left on the field at Clemson. But, why in the world should we waste a first rd pick on him only because he’s supposed to be the next great tweener? RB is one of the easiest positions in football to draft for. And I’m sorry, there just aren’t THAT many teams in the NFL that run the ball exclusively now. Such as what WE were supposed to be doing LAST year! As far as ST players are concerned, they are too much of a hit or miss proposition. In fact, do you realize, Devin Hester was drafted in the 2nd rd? And until we saw him returning punts the year the Bears went to the Super Bowl, he wasn’t even being played on the offensive side of the ball? He was drafted as a corner. My point being, as amazing as Spiller is, we already have Gore for the forseeable future and I don’t think drafting him in the first rd just to be a ST and 2nd RB is a good choice. Besides, as it is, everyyear in the college ranks comes another speed burner with fluid hips, and god like speed that we can draft when it really looks like Gore is coming to the end of his time in our franchise.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
Stat line from the combine is predictive of nothing
Chris Henry from Arizona a few years back had a great combine and he’s 3rd on the depth chart for the Texans. A great combine either reaffirms the skills that you’ve already shown on film or forces the scouts to reexamine your film and why you didn’t make more noise when the pads were on and playing the game.
Pass heavy would be the worst direction for this franchise, as it is for most.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
I KINDA agree with that notion....although....
I think it may have merit to look into. As for the skill positions for the Niners, I think we may have the beginnings of the correct personnel to run a “Run and Gun” offense. It’s not like we are a lack of speedy, sure handed wideouts. IMO, that’s one area we seem to be overflowing with. If we did go to a spread type offense, the only area I have issue with is at QB. I simply am not sold completely on ANY of the guys we have under center. The basis for such an offense running above board is a quick thinking, accurate, tough, knowlegdeable QB. Say a…..Peyton Manning. Or perhaps Jim Kelly, or Warren Moon. Guys who can make correct line calls, and receiver audibles that put the right guy, in the right place, at the right time. NON of the guys we currently have can do that.
The next issue would be the Line. Although it would help to litterally chop the learning curve down as they would pass block the majority of the time instead of pulling and stunting for the run. The trade off, comes in a SERIOUS lack of a dependable running game that can keep the defense honest and gain the tough short yards. But, at any rate, I think with a couple minor tweaks to what we already own, the team as a whole isn’t too far away from being a stomach ache inducing matchup.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
This
Is exactly why the apread is a poor direction for us, Smith can’t pass accurately, maybe it’s mechanics and can be fixed, but I doubt it can. However I am willing to give him one more season, but I would prefer our defense became more stout, since we don’t know what will happen with the offense, no matter what you add to it.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
You are on your own on that one. We need OL help and kr/pr help, badly.
We were 5-1 in the division last year and that didn’t help at all.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
more more more
gore gets hurts we all know that. I would rather have him on our team than play against him. Seattle still has a QB and he knows how to beat us. So let’s take a weapon away and use it to our advantage.
Let's make a good team, a Great Team!
by chriscream on Mar 20, 2010 6:21 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Now i’m not a C.J. Spiller fanatic or anything but i do think we can draft him(if available) and still draft a quality offensive lineman cause the position is kinda deep this year. The reason im high on C.J. is yes the Niners have a lot of holes and i feel like he can fill more then one position. There are ways to get him and Gore in the game at the same time…u dont always have to hand him the ball…if u look at tape of Spiller he has very good receiver skills…u can do a variety of things with him cause of his high skill set. Having a player with that kind of break away speed only opens things up for Crabtree, Davis and Gore. One of the wisest ways to win in the NFL is field position. Spiller can control that for us cause he can take it to the house at any givin time without always having to put together a 60, 70yd drive when the O hits the field…and on special teams…shoot all this dude needs is a seam and he is gone and on top of that he doesnt even have to score on special teams…with our offense just the simple flipping of field position will make us more efficient and affective…last year our defense was good but got worn down over the long season because we often had bad field position and had to go on those long drives to score….good field position can cover up alot of holes we have like our QB…i like Alex Smith don’t get me wrong but the recipe of beating us is when we get stuck in 2nd and 3rd and long and have to depend on him to make a decision with the defenses sending hoardes of blitzes our way…with the addition of C.J. and a quality offensive lineman in the first round we can mask some weaknessess we have. Gore will still be our stud in the backfield…Spiller and Coffee will be able to take wear and tear off of Gore cause i believe he still has 4 to 5 good yrs left. Which brings me to my last point…i hear the arguement that it’s no need to draft someone thats going to be a backup in the first round…i agree with that but i think its safe to say that for our team a back like Spiller will make the offense run much better and smoother cause that kind of threat will make it difficult to key on Davis, Crabtree and Gore and create matchups in our favor…he can get about 10 to 12 carries a game and we can also use him in the screen game from the backfield and also split him out….a defense’s linebacker or 2nd or 3rd string corner will not be able to keep up with him if he’s split out in which we can get another 5 to 6 touches a game… and the special teams addition will be big…..don’t forget about Morgan…i think he will step it up this year along with Coffee…..later in the draft i believe we can address depth at our offensive line and i believe it will be some players available to sure up the backside of our defense. Just my opinion
I’ve been on the Spiller bandwagon for some time but I’m not a Spiller fanatic either.
It’s about unpredictability, something the 49ers still don’t have enough of on offense. The game is so studied that the defense can conclude what the offense will try from the personnel, situation, talent and tendencies. Spiller’s versatility is a trump card. With Gore, Davis and Crabtree, good defenses still have a feel for what we’ll try. Add Spiller, from multiple formations and we’re much harder to predict and prepare for. Sure, the holes at RT and LG need to be remedied, the offense still needs to execute and Raye needs to be up to the task of designing plays but planning for us would be traumatic and Spiller could add that.
by DeathValleyCarl on Mar 21, 2010 7:56 AM PDT reply actions
We also need a QB that can execute any play. I don't have the confidence in him either.
And an OL that can do the same.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
This is my reasoning for looking at a more dominant defense.
If I were GM, Ninersnation would call me the draft hustler.
Step 1 - Offer contract to Bushrod and give up my 49th pick.(RT)
Step 2 - move up to #5 Take Berry for BOTH first rounds and acquire a 2nd and 4th
Step 3 - 2nd round - M gilyard, 3rd - J Jerry, 4th AJ Jefferson, 4th Rafael Priest CB TCU, 5th Deji Karim, 6th - Alex Daniels DE Cincy, 7th Al Woods LSU
We already have one. I dont see us making too many changes. One… two at the very most.
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Our defense is not dominant.
We gave up waaaay too many conversions on 3rd and long, a dominant defense does not give up those as much as we did.
If I were GM, I'd be looking at making the defense a top 5 defense.
Which is why we need a pass coverage safety over the top
to help out the CBs
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
You don't have to convince me, but others, meehhh-aybe.
I would move up for Berry just because he can stop TE’s from killing us and he can allow us to send more pressure or buy time for our 4 man rush. he also will allow Willis to blitz more with man coverage skills and zone coverage skills that we don’t posess at SS.
If I were GM, I'd be looking at making the defense a top 5 defense.
Too many conversions on 3rd and short too.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 23, 2010 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
We have a real oppurtunity to make ourselves very dangerous on offense
Im from South Carolina but i have been a Niners fan most of my life….the successful Niners offenses in the past has always had a game breaker somewhere in the offense but for every game breaker they have always had someone to keep the defense honest or take coverage away so the gamebreaker can do his thing. Our defense is very solid especially considering we dont have a dominating pass rush…i believe with our outside linebackers that we already have like Manny Lawson and others we can have a decent pass rush and we can also get better on the backside through the draft to go with the players we have now….wit that being said we have a good oppurtunity to make our offense very unpredictable with the drafting of C.J. Spiller or Javid Best…DeathValleyCarl is absolutely right when he said the game is so much analysted that defenses can pretty much predict wats going to be ran on offense just looking at the personal we have and formation we line up in. We have good players on offense with Crabtree and Davis, and Gore…on the other hand we are shaky at QB and RT…even with our good skilled players teams can predict our plays cause they know we dont have blazing speed at any one position and they know if they blitz or pressure us with there down four Smith has the reputation of getting shook or just plain turning over the ball…like i said earlier im from South Carolina so ive seen C.J. Spiller up close and personal and with that dude’s skill set and speed defenses are going to have to account for him in one way or the other…he will open up things for the other gamebreakers we have and vice versa…now at the same time Jimmy Raye will have to do his job as a O.C. and be creative in his creation of formations…it will be no excuse y he cant get mismatches because Spiller’s skill set is so versitile he can run the ball, line up at wide out and be is very effective on screen plays and wide receiver screens….i think the same can be said for Javid Best…with one of those two and a quality RT or LT we can have the ability to control the ball and move the chains. That will make our defense that much effective against opposing offenses because they will be fresh and not on the field all the time…that was our problem last year..we had a solid defense but they got worn down as the season went on cause they were on the field all the time against good teams. rlott#42 i feel u when u say u dont have the confidence in Smith to run every play…i completely agree with u brah…but i think if u can give him a weapon like Spiller or Best he dosen’t have to always go down field he can simply dump it off to either one or Gore for that matter on check downs, screens, and wide receiver screens at let them make the plays for him…if it dosent happen with that kind of personal it will be apparent that Smith will never make it in the NFL and the O.C. will be held responsible if those chains are not moving…but if Smith can make good decisions with the ball defenses will catch all hell trying to stop either Crabtree or Davis one on one and it will open running lanes for Gore…hell Gore runs for a grand year in and year out with no offensive line…with the right addition at right tackle and speed added with Best or Spiller running lanes will be wide open and he will be a 13 to 1500yd back easily with the defenses they have in our division…if either Morgan or Coffee step up to there potential we can take the NFC West easily…just my opinion
Where is SF??
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/3/21/1383819/mike-iupati-nfl-draft-eagles
If I were GM, I'd be looking at making the defense a top 5 defense.
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